What's a hand strike (exactly)?
mostly harmless
exactly are permitted after an Immortal Grapple is played.
Card text says strikes that are not hand strikes aren't allowed.
So what's a hand strike? Everything that does hand damage? Or just the
default hand strike without any cards?
The rule book does seem to imply the latter, but I'm not sure.
I'm pretty sure that even melee weapons aren't allowed, but what about
strike cards like Undead Strength or Wolf Claws, that deal modified
hand damage - are these still 'hand strikes'? And what about dodge and
combat ends? What about cards like Entombment or Coma?
Thanks in advance
Michael
Reyda
"mostly harmless" <mostlyh...@chello.at> a écrit dans le message news:
9ebd888f.01091...@posting.google.com...
> While building a new Brujah deck, I was wondering which strikes
> exactly are permitted after an Immortal Grapple is played.
hand strikes ;)
> Card text says strikes that are not hand strikes aren't allowed.
>
> So what's a hand strike? Everything that does hand damage? Or just the
> default hand strike without any cards?
any card that does non ranged damage based on your strength qualifies. Some
weapons are worded like "strength +2 damage" but they are not your hands. So
you cannot strike with a weapon under Immortal Grapple, only bare hands.
Strikin with a weapon is not striking with your hands, i'm sure you agree.
The most commonly seen "hand strikes" those days are : Scorpion sting,
Undead strength, Pushing the limit, Burning wrath, Lucky blow, Scorpion
sting, Dagon's call, Khabar the honor. Sutter step does'nt qualifie since
it's a dodge who inflicts damage as a side effect.
You can modify your hand strike with Wolf claw to make them aggravated. You
are still fighting bare handed.
Dodge, coma, majesty, entombment, fleshcraft and other strike cards are not
hand damage.
i hope i'm clear enough =)
reyda
James Coupe
>> So what's a hand strike? Everything that does hand damage? Or just the
>> default hand strike without any cards?
>
>any card that does non ranged damage based on your strength qualifies.
Just for reference (it pretty much agrees with everything you said), the
ruling's text states:
"Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based
on the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-
dealing innate strike. [LSJ 19970224]"
So "Strike for strength" is.
So "Scorpion Sting for strength+1" is.
So "Blood Fury" isn't - not based on strength.
So "Shadow Strike" isn't - it's ranged.
So "Bastard Sword" isn't - it's melee weapon based.
So ".44 Magnum" isn't - it's a weapon and it's ranged.
So "Theft of Vitae" isn't - it's ranged and not damage.
etc.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
Close your eyes so you don't feel them EBD690ECD7A1F
They don't need to see you cry B457CA213D7E6
I can't promise I will heal you, but if you want to I will try 68C3695D623D5D
mostly harmless
Reyda <re...@noos.fr> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
9o76dq$fjk$1...@neon.noos.net...
>
> "mostly harmless" <mostlyh...@chello.at> a écrit dans le message news:
> 9ebd888f.01091...@posting.google.com...
> > While building a new Brujah deck, I was wondering which strikes
> > exactly are permitted after an Immortal Grapple is played.
>
> hand strikes ;)
Really? I don't believe it! :)
> any card that does non ranged damage based on your strength qualifies.
That sounds like a useful definition. Thanks.
Any objections?
M.
James Coupe
<mostlyh...@chello.atNOSPAM!> writes
>> any card that does non ranged damage based on your strength qualifies.
>
>That sounds like a useful definition. Thanks.
>
>Any objections?
The obvious melee weapon based objection.
....salem christ....
> In message <iZHp7.30142$GV1.6...@news.chello.at>, mostly harmless
> <mostlyh...@chello.atNOSPAM!> writes
> >> any card that does non ranged damage based on your strength qualifies.
> >
> >That sounds like a useful definition. Thanks.
> >
> >Any objections?
>
> The obvious melee weapon based objection.
and stutter step, as previously noted, is another objection.
salem.
Bobby_Doc
> Undead strength, Pushing the limit, Burning wrath, Lucky blow, Scorpion
> sting, Dagon's call, Khabar the honor. Sutter step does'nt qualifie since
> it's a dodge who inflicts damage as a side effect.
Are you sure about Dagon's Call?
Robert
Brad Ward
> > The most commonly seen "hand strikes" those days are : Scorpion sting,
> > Undead strength, Pushing the limit, Burning wrath, Lucky blow, Scorpion
> > sting, Dagon's call, Khabar the honor. Sutter step does'nt qualifie since
> > it's a dodge who inflicts damage as a side effect.
So burning wrath is a Hand strike and can be used with immortal
grapple? I heard somewhere otherwise. just would like to clarify.
-Brad
Prince of NLV
James Coupe
<wa...@nevada.edu> writes
>robert_...@hotmail.com (Bobby_Doc) wrote in message news:<87708033.01091...@posting.google.com>...
>> > The most commonly seen "hand strikes" those days are : Scorpion sting,
>> > Undead strength, Pushing the limit, Burning wrath, Lucky blow, Scorpion
>> > sting, Dagon's call, Khabar the honor. Sutter step does'nt qualifie since
>> > it's a dodge who inflicts damage as a side effect.
>
>So burning wrath is a Hand strike and can be used with immortal
>grapple?
Yes. It's a non-ranged strike based on your strength which isn't a
melee weapon strike.
That it's aggravated doesn't matter.
James Coupe
<robert_...@hotmail.com> writes
From here, it looks like Stutter Step to me - with a hand strike effect
and something else as well.
Pat Ricochet
> In message <87708033.01091...@posting.google.com>, Bobby_Doc
> <robert_...@hotmail.com> writes
>>> The most commonly seen "hand strikes" those days are : Scorpion sting,
>>> Undead strength, Pushing the limit, Burning wrath, Lucky blow, Scorpion
>>> sting, Dagon's call, Khabar the honor. Sutter step does'nt qualifie since
>>> it's a dodge who inflicts damage as a side effect.
>>
>> Are you sure about Dagon's Call?
>
> From here, it looks like Stutter Step to me - with a hand strike effect
> and something else as well.
??
Name: Dagon's Call
Cost: 1 blood
[qui] STRIKE: MAKE A HAND STRIKE (at strength damage) and the opposing
minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each round this
combat. A vampire may play only one Dagon's Call each combat.
[QUI] As above, and this hand strike does strength+1 damage.
Name: Stutter-Step
[cel] Strike: dodge.
[CEL] STRIKE: DODGE and inflict strength damage. This damage may be modified
by effects that modify hand damage. {This is both a hand strike and a dodge.
It cannot be used if dodges are restricted} Only usable at close range. Not
usable as an additional strike, and this vampire cannot use any additional
strikes this round.
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
James Coupe
<sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes
>>> Are you sure about Dagon's Call?
>>
>> From here, it looks like Stutter Step to me - with a hand strike effect
>> and something else as well.
>
> ??
>
>Name: Dagon's Call
>Cost: 1 blood
>[qui] STRIKE: MAKE A HAND STRIKE (at strength damage) and the opposing
>minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each round this
>combat.
It would appear that the "and the opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable
damage during the press step each round" is also an effect of the
strike.
>Name: Stutter-Step
>[cel] Strike: dodge.
>[CEL] STRIKE: DODGE and inflict strength damage. This damage may be modified
>by effects that modify hand damage. {This is both a hand strike
^^^^ ^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^
It appears that both of them have an element of hand strike and
something else.
Pat Ricochet
>>>
>>> From here, it looks like Stutter Step to me - with a hand strike effect
>>> and something else as well.
>>
>> ??
>>
>> Name: Dagon's Call
>> Cost: 1 blood
>> [qui] STRIKE: MAKE A HAND STRIKE (at strength damage) and the opposing
>> minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each round this
>> combat.
>
> It would appear that the "and the opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable
> damage during the press step each round" is also an effect of the
> strike.
>
>
>> Name: Stutter-Step
>> [cel] Strike: dodge.
>> [CEL] STRIKE: DODGE and inflict strength damage. This damage may be modified
>> by effects that modify hand damage. {This is both a hand strike
> ^^^^ ^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^
>
> It appears that both of them have an element of hand strike and
> something else.
You oversnipped there a bit and lost the context, though:
> While building a new Brujah deck, I was wondering which strikes
> exactly are permitted after an Immortal Grapple is played.
...
>>> The most commonly seen "hand strikes" those days are : Scorpion sting,
>>> Undead strength, Pushing the limit, Burning wrath, Lucky blow, Scorpion
>>> sting, Dagon's call, Khabar the honor. Sutter step does'nt qualifie since
>>> it's a dodge who inflicts damage as a side effect.
>>
>> Are you sure about Dagon's Call?
>
> From here, it looks like Stutter Step to me - with a hand strike effect
> and something else as well.
It looks rather unlike Stutter-Step. I was confused as to whether you
were implying Stutter-Step *could* be used Immortal Grapple, or that Dagon's
Call *couldn't*. "Are you sure about Dagon's Call" seeming to be "Are you
sure Dagon's Call counts as a hand strike, such that you can use it while
Grappled?"
Academically, I guess they have similarities, but my oh-so-eloquent "??"
was "But, but, but, I thought the question was...WAAAAH! MOM! Those people
on the Internet you warned me about are confusing me!" =)
LSJ
Yes. Card text: "make a hand strike..."
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
>
> In message <e5b93701.01091...@posting.google.com>, Brad Ward
> <wa...@nevada.edu> writes
> >robert_...@hotmail.com (Bobby_Doc) wrote in message news:<87708033.01091...@posting.google.com>...
> >> > The most commonly seen "hand strikes" those days are : Scorpion sting,
> >> > Undead strength, Pushing the limit, Burning wrath, Lucky blow, Scorpion
> >> > sting, Dagon's call, Khabar the honor. Sutter step does'nt qualifie since
> >> > it's a dodge who inflicts damage as a side effect.
> >
> >So burning wrath is a Hand strike and can be used with immortal
> >grapple?
>
> Yes. It's a non-ranged strike based on your strength which isn't a
> melee weapon strike.
>
> That it's aggravated doesn't matter.
Correct.
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes
>> Are you sure about Dagon's Call?
>
>Yes. Card text: "make a hand strike..."
Given that it's a hand strike and something else apparently from the
strike, like Stutter Step, would playing Immortal Grapple foil Dagon's
Call?
I read the "and" as suggesting that this is more than just a hand
strike.
LSJ
>
> In message <3BA89005...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes
> >> Are you sure about Dagon's Call?
> >
> >Yes. Card text: "make a hand strike..."
>
> Given that it's a hand strike and something else apparently from the
> strike, like Stutter Step, would playing Immortal Grapple foil Dagon's
> Call?
>
> I read the "and" as suggesting that this is more than just a hand
> strike.
No. Stutter-Step has errata stating that it is not playable if
non-hand-strikes are restricted. It otherwise meets the definition
of a hand strike, so would be playable without the errata.
Dagon's call also meets the definition of a hand strike, so it is.
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes
>Dagon's call also meets the definition of a hand strike, so it is.
How does the "and the opposing minion takes..." meet the definition of a
hand strike?
I don't dispute that the first part is a hand strike, by definition,
(and thus would be affected by, say, Wolf Claws). I am sceptical as to
how the second part can function under an Immortal Grapple given that I
can't see how that functions as part of a hand strike.
LSJ
>
> In message <3BA89CB2...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes
> >Dagon's call also meets the definition of a hand strike, so it is.
>
> How does the "and the opposing minion takes..." meet the definition of a
> hand strike?
Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-dealing innate strike.
Is the strike ranged? No.
Is the strike a weapon strike? No.
Does it inflict damage based on strength? Yes.
> I don't dispute that the first part is a hand strike, by definition,
> (and thus would be affected by, say, Wolf Claws). I am sceptical as to
> how the second part can function under an Immortal Grapple given that I
> can't see how that functions as part of a hand strike.
Scorpion Sting cannot be dodged. That doesn't mean it's not a hand strike,
however.
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes
>Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-
>dealing innate strike.
>
>Is the strike ranged? No.
>Is the strike a weapon strike? No.
>Does it inflict damage based on strength? Yes.
Would "Strike: The opposing minion takes....." be a hand strike on its
own?
LSJ
>
> In message <3BA8A08E...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes
> >Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-
> >dealing innate strike.
> >
> >Is the strike ranged? No.
> >Is the strike a weapon strike? No.
> >Does it inflict damage based on strength? Yes.
>
> Would "Strike: The opposing minion takes....." be a hand strike on its
> own?
If the "..." was "strength damage", yes.
It's worded oddly - as if it were trying to be environmental despite
being a strike.
"Strike: the opposing minion takes strength damage" would be properly
written as "Strike: strength damage" to avoid that oddity.
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes
>> >Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-
>> >dealing innate strike.
>> >
>> >Is the strike ranged? No.
>> >Is the strike a weapon strike? No.
>> >Does it inflict damage based on strength? Yes.
>>
>> Would "Strike: The opposing minion takes....." be a hand strike on its
>> own?
>
>If the "..." was "strength damage", yes.
So how have we decided that "Strike: the opposing minion takes 1
unpreventable damage during the press step each round this combat" is
allowed to be part of a hand strike?
This is not strength damage.
LSJ
>
> In message <3BA8A5F9...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes
> >> >Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-
> >> >dealing innate strike.
> >> >
> >> >Is the strike ranged? No.
> >> >Is the strike a weapon strike? No.
> >> >Does it inflict damage based on strength? Yes.
> >>
> >> Would "Strike: The opposing minion takes....." be a hand strike on its
> >> own?
> >
> >If the "..." was "strength damage", yes.
>
> So how have we decided that "Strike: the opposing minion takes 1
> unpreventable damage during the press step each round this combat" is
> allowed to be part of a hand strike?
>
> This is not strength damage.
Dagon's Call says "make a hand strike (at strength damage)".
This is strength damage.
This fictional card you have that says "Strike: the opposing minion takes 1
unpreventable damage during the press step each round this combat" would
not be a hand strike, since it does not inflict damage based on strength.
This is in direct contrast with Dagon's Call, which does.
To determine if a strike is a hand strike, as stated above, you need only
to verify that it
1) is not ranged.
2) is not a weapon strike.
3) inflicts damage based on the striking minion's strength
If it meets these three conditions, it is a hand strike (as explicitly stated
in the definition of a hand strike, above).
Dagon's Call is not ranged. Dagon's Call is not a weapon strike. Dagon's Call
inflicts damage based on the striking minion's strength.
=> Dagon's Call is a hand strike.
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes
>> So how have we decided that "Strike: the opposing minion takes 1
>> unpreventable damage during the press step each round this combat" is
>> allowed to be part of a hand strike?
>>
>> This is not strength damage.
>
>Dagon's Call says "make a hand strike (at strength damage)".
>This is strength damage.
"Strike: [...] and [...]"
Part of the strike is based on strength damage.
Compare with Majesty where [...] and [...] are both part of the Strike.
LSJ
>
> In message <3BA8AD6D...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes
> >> So how have we decided that "Strike: the opposing minion takes 1
> >> unpreventable damage during the press step each round this combat" is
> >> allowed to be part of a hand strike?
> >>
> >> This is not strength damage.
> >
> >Dagon's Call says "make a hand strike (at strength damage)".
> >This is strength damage.
>
> "Strike: [...] and [...]"
>
> Part of the strike is based on strength damage.
OK. And the strike is a hand strike, since it matches the definition
of a hand strike.
> Compare with Majesty where [...] and [...] are both part of the Strike.
OK:
Majesty is not ranged. check.
Majesty is not a weapon strike. check.
Majest deals damage based on strength. FAIL.
=> Majesty is not a hand strike.
Chris Berger
> >Dagon's Call says "make a hand strike (at strength damage)".
> >This is strength damage.
>
> "Strike: [...] and [...]"
>
> Part of the strike is based on strength damage.
>
> Compare with Majesty where [...] and [...] are both part of the Strike.
Majesty has "S:CE" and "burn 1 blood to untap" as part of the effect.
If a vampire is not allowed to end combat as a strike, then it is not
allowed to play Majesty, because Majesty is a "combat ends" strike.
If IG is in effect, you cannot use a strike unless it's a hand strike.
DC meets all the requirements of a hand strike; thus you may play it.
It doesn't matter if it's also something else. If it was "Strike:
combat ends and opposing minion takes Strength damage", it could be
played under IG, barring errata that said the card wasn't a hand
strike.
You could have a card that said, "Strike: deal Strength - 100 damage
(minimum of 0), and call a referendum. Choose a location and a
methuselah. If the referendum is successful, that methuselah gains
control of that location." and it would still be a hand strike. It
would also be a "political strike" or whatever, but barring errata, it
could be played under Immortal Grapple.
If, however, Political Grapple ("minions in combat cannot play strikes
that call referendums") were played, then you would not be able to
play "Well-Aimed Disputed Territory".
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes
>> >Dagon's Call says "make a hand strike (at strength damage)".
>> >This is strength damage.
>>
>> "Strike: [...] and [...]"
>>
>> Part of the strike is based on strength damage.
>
>OK. And the strike is a hand strike, since it matches the definition
>of a hand strike.
You appear to be wilfully ignoring that the strike has more than one
component.
The card says: "Strike: make a hand strike (at strength damage) and the
opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each
round this combat."
Part of the strike is a hand strike; another part of the strike is not.
I see nothing in the definition of hand strike which allows "and the
opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each
round this combat" to be considered part of a hand strike, it not being
strength based.
Why does the hand strike component over-ride the non-hand strike
component?
LSJ
>
> In message <3BA8BEFC...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes
> >> >Dagon's Call says "make a hand strike (at strength damage)".
> >> >This is strength damage.
> >>
> >> "Strike: [...] and [...]"
> >>
> >> Part of the strike is based on strength damage.
> >
> >OK. And the strike is a hand strike, since it matches the definition
> >of a hand strike.
>
> You appear to be wilfully ignoring that the strike has more than one
> component.
Not at all. I just note that it matches the definition of a hand strike,
which is a necessary and sufficient condition.
> The card says: "Strike: make a hand strike (at strength damage) and the
> opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each
> round this combat."
>
> Part of the strike is a hand strike; another part of the strike is not.
No. This strike is a hand strike, by the definition (as pointed out).
Therefore both parts are part of a hand strike.
> I see nothing in the definition of hand strike which allows "and the
> opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each
> round this combat" to be considered part of a hand strike, it not being
> strength based.
I have presented complete step-by-miniscule-step reasoning several times
showing that it is a hand strike by the definition of a hand strike.
If there is a flaw in that, please point it out.
If there is a part of the definition that precludes additional effects, please
point it out.
> Why does the hand strike component over-ride the non-hand strike
> component?
No need to override anything. The strike is a hand strike, by the definition
of a hand strike. Why would adding something that doesn't violate the definition
of a hand strike override the fact that it is a hand strike?
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes
>> I see nothing in the definition of hand strike which allows "and the
>> opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each
>> round this combat" to be considered part of a hand strike, it not being
>> strength based.
>
>I have presented complete step-by-miniscule-step reasoning several times
>showing that it is a hand strike by the definition of a hand strike.
You have shown by complete step-by-miniscule-step reasoning several
times that one part qualifies under the definition of a hand strike.
You have then asserted that this makes the whole strike a hand strike,
even though "and the opposing minion takes..." does not qualify by the
definition of hand strike, step-by-miniscule-step.
Are you attempting to claim that "Strike: The opposing minion takes...."
would be a hand strike?
LSJ
>
> In message <3BA9EC61...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes
> >> I see nothing in the definition of hand strike which allows "and the
> >> opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each
> >> round this combat" to be considered part of a hand strike, it not being
> >> strength based.
> >
> >I have presented complete step-by-miniscule-step reasoning several times
> >showing that it is a hand strike by the definition of a hand strike.
>
> You have shown by complete step-by-miniscule-step reasoning several
> times that one part qualifies under the definition of a hand strike.
> You have then asserted that this makes the whole strike a hand strike,
> even though "and the opposing minion takes..." does not qualify by the
> definition of hand strike, step-by-miniscule-step.
The whole strike, taken as a whole, matches the definition of a hand strike.
That is necessary and sufficient. The definition does not require (nor even
allow) taking each part separately, nor does it preclude multiple "parts".
If Bonecraft said "Strike: strength damage. Put this card ..." instead of
"Strike: 1 damage. Put this card ...", it would be a hand strike, by the
definition.
> Are you attempting to claim that "Strike: The opposing minion takes...."
> would be a hand strike?
If it's the strike we've already discussed, then yes, I've already claimed
that, with the caveat that the wording is poor and would, if it were
actually printed, be worded differently (with the same effect) to avoid
confusion.
"Is X a hand strike?" flowchart, based on the clear application of the
definition (with step 1 added for completeness):
1. Is X a strike?
Y -> proceed to 2.
N -> not a hand strike. end.
2. Is X a weapon strike?
Y -> not a hand strike. end.
N -> proceed to 3.
3. Is X a ranged strike?
Y -> not a hand strike. end.
N -> proceed to 4.
4. Does X inflict damage based on the striking minion's strength?
Y -> hand strike. end.
N -> not a hand strike. end.
(The second part of the definition is superfluous now that allies all
indicate their strength values explicitly).