More cards for the Imbued in the future?
Chlorix
http://extrala.blogspot.com/2009/07/point-of-view-10-things-i-hate-about.html
Should the Imbued get extra cards in the future?
The four possible options that come to mind are:
1. No, Nights of Reckoning was enough.
2. Yes, give us a new stand alone expansion featuring the Imbued.
3. Mix some Imbued cards into a new expansion.
4. Only provide new Imbued as (storyline) promos
(the fifth option could be 5. Ban Imbued all together)
Personally I would like to see option 3, simply because of the fact
that there isn't much diversity in playing the Imbued (20 minions
isn't a lot).
A 300+ card set could easily include lets say 8 Imbued (2 Judges and 1
of the other creeds) and a dozen Imbued specific cards (maybe
including 1 or 2 extra convictions).
Share your views.
H
henrik
> Inspired by a topic on the blog of Extrala
>
>
> Should the Imbued get extra cards in the future?
>
> The four possible options that come to mind are:
>
> 1. No, Nights of Reckoning was enough.
> 2. Yes, give us a new stand alone expansion featuring the Imbued.
> 3. Mix some Imbued cards into a new expansion.
> 4. Only provide new Imbued as (storyline) promos
I agree a little with some of Extrala's points, but I do think that a
new expansion with imbueds could fix most of the "problems" they have
at this point. It's actually one of the things I hope for the most
when it comes to new expansions, because I'd love to see Imbueds get
more diverse and generally playable.
Since I think it's a kinda common thing to want to stay away from NoR
overall, the best would probably be to use option 2 (a stand alone
expansion). Giving those who know they never want to play Imbueds a
chance to stay away from those cards instead of being "forced" to buy
just to get the vampire half of the cards. From my own point of view
it wouldn't really matter how the expansion looked though.
Then again, the expansion could focus on Imbueds as a crypt supplement
to vampires. Then it'd make more sense to add more "normal" stuff as
well. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of both, but I think full Imbued
crypts should be the first priority.
I also believe that the playtesting could be a lot better, since the
features wouldn't 100 % new this time. That should make it easier to
see what will be too strong and what will be too weak.
Janne Hägglund
> Inspired by a topic on the blog of Extrala
>
> http://extrala.blogspot.com/2009/07/point-of-view-10-things-i-hate-about.html
His points were valid, except for #9. Imbued player splitting his ash heap
into two piles to speed up play is something to *hate*? WTF?
> Should the Imbued get extra cards in the future?
>
> The four possible options that come to mind are:
>
> 1. No, Nights of Reckoning was enough.
> 2. Yes, give us a new stand alone expansion featuring the Imbued.
> 3. Mix some Imbued cards into a new expansion.
> 4. Only provide new Imbued as (storyline) promos
>
> (the fifth option could be 5. Ban Imbued all together)
3 & 4. (No reason why promos coudn't be new cards for Imbued.)
What I would like to see are cards and minions that make Imbued interact more
with regular vampire decks, such as Ambulance and Anna "Dictatrix11" Suljic.
HG
Vincent Crisafulli
cards. This way, there can be seven types of Imbued decks, instead of just
one. Focusing on creed specific cards also keeps the current mixed-creed
Imbued decks at the same power level.
However, I'm not sure releasing more Imbued is going to be good for V:tES. I
know people who have stopped playing the game after NoR came out. Perhaps
it's better that a set for Mages or Kindred of the East comes out, that
players are more likely to buy.
"Chlorix" <Chl...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:73fcbbeb-a64e-402c...@h18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
The Lasombra
>Inspired by a topic on the blog of Extrala
>http://extrala.blogspot.com/2009/07/point-of-view-10-things-i-hate-about.html
>Should the Imbued get extra cards in the future?
Yes.
>The four possible options that come to mind are:
>1. No, Nights of Reckoning was enough.
Something to replace Edge Explosion and Memories of Mortality would be
nice.
>2. Yes, give us a new stand alone expansion featuring the Imbued.
There is almost zero chance of this being financially feasible.
Potomac Distribution has been trying to dump their NoR stock for
months on Ebay at $54 per box. I've sold maybe 1 or 2 boxes in the
last year. The VTES population is small, WW/CCP cannot afford to sell
to a small proportion of the players again and would be wise to avoid
this.
>3. Mix some Imbued cards into a new expansion.
I think it would fairly simple to do this. 2-4 minions, 2-4 library
cards wouldn't disgust anyone buying the set if it were a Bloodlines
sized one. If the set was as focused as Sword of Caine or Ebony
Kingdom they wouldn't be welcome, but a larger set has more room for
play.
>4. Only provide new Imbued as (storyline) promos
I wouldn't object to seeing more cards in this manner either, but I
don't think it is necessary to restrict them to "only" promos.
>(the fifth option could be 5. Ban Imbued all together)
I don't have any interest in that 5th option at all. See also:
http://vtes-hunter-net.tripod.com/
>Personally I would like to see option 3, simply because of the fact
>that there isn't much diversity in playing the Imbued (20 minions
>isn't a lot).
Three is good.
>A 300+ card set could easily include lets say 8 Imbued (2 Judges and 1
>of the other creeds) and a dozen Imbued specific cards (maybe
>including 1 or 2 extra convictions).
I don't know about a dozen, but every generic card that doesn't
require a vampire can be an Imbued booster.
>Share your views.
Indeed.
Carpe noctem.
The Lasombra
Your best source of V:TES information.
Now also selling boxes and individual cards.
James Coupe
>Inspired by a topic on the blog of Extrala
>
>http://extrala.blogspot.com/2009/07/point-of-view-10-things-i-hate-about.html
>
>Should the Imbued get extra cards in the future?
Yes.
However, there are a variety of things I'd like to see happen first. I
would like to see, amongst other things:
- reprints of cards that people want (Deflection, Parity Shift,
Shroud of Absence, Movement of the Mind, Spiritual Intervention,
Alamut, Sensory Deprivation, Blood Doll etc.)
- more vampires for the Laibon (even after EK)
- more viable Trophy tech.
>2. Yes, give us a new stand alone expansion featuring the Imbued.
Probably this primarily. It would be fine for some of the cards to be
multi-functional, though. e.g. a piece of equipment that might be
wanted by vampires or allies, not just Imbued; an intercept location
that works well for the Imbued, but could be used by others; a pool gain
master card that has general applicability.
Principally, it should be probably be Imbued-led, but having some cards
that people can trade with other people, or that might be interesting
for singles sales, or that might tempt a few sales to people who are
ambivalent about the Imbued is probably good.
>3. Mix some Imbued cards into a new expansion.
A few of these would be okay, but it should probably be the reverse of 2
- cards that are good for the set they're in, but which have good Imbued
applications too. It could be something that works well for either
vampires or Imbued just generally, or it could be something with an
alternative on it. (e.g. say you had a Trifle: Out of Turn: "Move a
reaction card to the top of your library as you play it, or untap a
reaction Power as you use it." Not saying that's a good card, but it
could be used with vampires or allies or Imbued.)
>4. Only provide new Imbued as (storyline) promos
Imbued-only cards are likely to piss people off who don't like the
Imbued at all, but a multi-functional card would be okay.
>A 300+ card set could easily include lets say 8 Imbued (2 Judges and 1
>of the other creeds) and a dozen Imbued specific cards (maybe
>including 1 or 2 extra convictions).
I'd expect a lot of whining of the sort that goes "Wah, I pulled
Baseball Cap of Vengeance as my rare. Why must LSJ do this to me? Why
can't I get a proper rare for proper decks and not this shitty rare for
shitty Imbued?"
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
witness1
> On Sat, 25 July 2009 01:25:17 -0700 (PDT), Chlorix wrote:
> >Inspired by a topic on the blog of Extrala
> >Should the Imbued get extra cards in the future?
It would be nice.
> >The four possible options that come to mind are:
> >1. No, Nights of Reckoning was enough.
>
> Something to replace Edge Explosion and Memories of Mortality would be
> nice.
About 90% of the time I played a Memories of Mortality, it was to make
a guy unable to block for a turn and then oust my prey while his pants
were down - I always counted on him getting a crosstable rescue if he
survived. Misdirection would suffice in its place.
As for Edge Explosion, it's conviction-regaining mechanic was
overpowered and it's cross-virtue enabling ability always felt like a
kludge to fix the fact that there weren't enough guys with matching
virtues to enable significant deck variety. If the imbued are going to
get more cards, the latter problem can and should be fixed by printing
more minions, rather than another patch. Some kind of milder
conviction-regain enabler wouldn't be amiss, though.
> >3. Mix some Imbued cards into a new expansion.
>
> I think it would fairly simple to do this. 2-4 minions, 2-4 library
> cards wouldn't disgust anyone buying the set if it were a Bloodlines
> sized one. If the set was as focused as Sword of Caine or Ebony
> Kingdom they wouldn't be welcome, but a larger set has more room for
> play.
The problem I see with this is that the set would need to contain some
conviction as well. Not insurmountable, as I'd be in favor of a few
new convictions anyway (one that burned for a maneuver to close/press
to continue against a monster would be awesome).
> >4. Only provide new Imbued as (storyline) promos
>
> I wouldn't object to seeing more cards in this manner either, but I
> don't think it is necessary to restrict them to "only" promos.
Some of this could be cool.
> >(the fifth option could be 5. Ban Imbued all together)
>
> I don't have any interest in that 5th option at all. See also:http://vtes-hunter-net.tripod.com/
>
> >Personally I would like to see option 3, simply because of the fact
> >that there isn't much diversity in playing the Imbued (20 minions
> >isn't a lot).
That's the tragedy as I see it. A lot of interesting potential for
variety exists, but the support just isn't there for some of the
concepts. As such, most of the (good) decks tend to look pretty
homogenous (although I think a lot of the diversity is ignored or
overlooked as well).
As of right now, there are creed-specific cards for only three of the
seven creeds. A card apiece for the remaining creeds would be good, a
second for each creed would go a long way towards distinguishing them.
Similarly, there are 3-4 cards for each virtue. Pushing up to 5-6 for
each would give us more reason to bother using them. That might be too
much to do all at once, but it's a goal worth shooting for, IMO.
I don't think any of that matters much without more minions, though.
Most of the virtues just don't have a great selection of guys to build
with, and there's no more than two guys with any pair. Some of the
virtues have good support cards, but nothing worth focusing on. This
would be okay if there were more guys who paired that virtue with
another that was more mainline, but two dudes doesn't cut it. The
single best thing that could be done for imbued deck variety would
simply be more minions.
-witness1
Orava
selection only makes for a few effective strategies, making for (all
too) uniform decks. I particular, more minions would be very much
appreciated.
I think mixing new cards into a new expansion and/or making new Imbued
cards promos would be the way to go here.
Johannes Walch
Best option. People can�t complain about free stuff and creating more
diversity will probably move the sitting NoR stock.
xcver
my book it just counteracts the basic principles of the game (i.e.
playing vampires and interacting with the fellow methuselahs). I
already thought introducing methuselah like characters into the game
was wrong from a fluff-perspective (so I am controlling Saulot....am
I?) and think the imbued are even more-so just not the "right thing".
Sure it works and you can play with them, but it just feels like you
are always playing alone and you 'll always be the one getting the
hate because on principle you usually play cards to hurt all others
without any pinpoint accuracy to it.
Although diversity is a problem which leads to basically every imbued
deck looking the same I don't really think more diversity will help.
Blooded Sand
Please, please, please no more imbued. Rather print the"Fluffy Pink
Candy Cotton Flying Unicorns of the Blahdsuk clans" before you do
that. Please?
Malone
> Inspired by a topic on the blog of Extrala
>
I hesitate to even take the time to read something with this title.
The imbued mechanic, while ingenious, adds complexity and potential
delays. "Hating" that seems extreme; hating anything else seems
arbitrary and pointless. Anyway, Francois Loehr is good.
> Should the Imbued get extra cards in the future?
>
> The four possible options that come to mind are:
>
> 1. No, Nights of Reckoning was enough.
Clearly, it was not enough. Some people may say it was too much, but
nobody believes it was exactly enough, do they?
> 2. Yes, give us a new stand alone expansion featuring the Imbued.
I'd buy, but there's evidence that not enough other people would.
> 3. Mix some Imbued cards into a new expansion.
Absolutely! Mainstreaming the Imbued is a worthwhile goal. Half or
more of Extrala's complaints would be relieved by diversifying and
mainstreaming the Imbued.
Why not put one or two Imbued from some specific Creed, one or two
library cards for their corresponding Virtue, and one Conviction in
each expansion; like 2 Judges, 2 Judgment cards and a Conviction next
expansion, 2 Defenders and 2 Defense cards and a Conviction in the
next, etc. A really big expansion could double up, with 2 Creeds/
Virtues and 1 Conviction. The 'bonus' function of the conviction and
the specials on the Imbued could interact with the expansion theme.
If this approach would multiply the number of Conviction cards too
rapidly, another possibility would be to give some Master cards (or,
potentially, any library cards) a draft text that lets them function
as Conviction. For draft purposes any set with Imbued must have
Conviction, if only in the draft text.
> 4. Only provide new Imbued as (storyline) promos
Not *only* this, I think. Imbued haters will complain that they're
not getting any promo love. Promos may not help in mainstreaming the
Imbued.
> (the fifth option could be 5. Ban Imbued all together)
True, this is an option, but why on earth would they do that? To be
absolutely certain that the backstock of NoR never sells?
Rhavas
What about a small 20ish card non-random box, something akin to 10th
anniversary, but with just new Imbued cards? Similar to what Fantasy
Flight Games has been doing with their Cthuhu expansions. I don't
know the overhead of something like this, and at what point it would
become profitable, but it might be another option beyond what you
listed already.
Jason
> What about a small 20ish card non-random box, something akin to 10th
> anniversary, but with just new Imbued cards? Similar to what Fantasy
> Flight Games has been doing with their Cthuhu expansions. I don't
> know the overhead of something like this, and at what point it would
> become profitable, but it might be another option beyond what you
Half a dozen cards every other year would be more than enough, as long
as those cards were good. The problem with NoR's design was that a
full two thirds of the set was really terrible, and the other third
was arguably overpowered.
But there needs to be a thorough redress of the way allies work in the
game before more Imbued cards are printed imo. There are baseline
problems that need to be solved before Imbued are specifically dealt
with.
jase
witness1
> What about a small 20ish card non-random box, something akin to 10th
> anniversary, but with just new Imbued cards?
May as well just make a starter deck at that point ;)
-witness1
John Whelan
> Inspired by a topic on the blog of Extrala
>
> http://extrala.blogspot.com/2009/07/point-of-view-10-things-i-hate-about.html
>
> Should the Imbued get extra cards in the future?
>
> The four possible options that come to mind are:
>
> 1. No, Nights of Reckoning was enough.
> 2. Yes, give us a new stand alone expansion featuring the Imbued.
> 3. Mix some Imbued cards into a new expansion.
> 4. Only provide new Imbued as (storyline) promos
>
> (the fifth option could be 5. Ban Imbued all together)
I'm not sure what should be done with the imbued, and, while we are
all making up our minds, would prefer that nothing happen at all. So
I vote "1", at least for the time being.
The imbued are problematic on a number of levels. Both thematically
and in terms of game mechanics, they seem like intruders from a
different game. The imbued player even brings his own rules, that
are not in the regular rulebook, and which, arguably, should stay out.
Malone
> But there needs to be a thorough redress of the way allies work in the
> game before more Imbued cards are printed imo. There are baseline
> problems that need to be solved before Imbued are specifically dealt
> with.
Could you be specific?
Rhavas
90 new cards may be a bit too much to hope for. :) Still, 20 plus
reprinting the rules cards (without their secondary functions) would
seem doable. The hurdle I see would be if retooling their normal
packaging (packs, 90 card starters) is a big issue.
xcver
be the (not enough cards) angle. However if suddenly new imbued cards
get in which allow those not played imbued to be playable you
obviously will also increase the power level of the existing ones that
already can be played, and I personally think imbued are already very
powerful so you gotta be careful. Also what seems true for the (imbued
just a few of them being played) also holds true for some of the
bloodlines. Take for example Baali of which normally only Nergal and
Cybele get played (the other's being there for the occasional
entertainment deck) with the same going for the Baali/Daimoinon cards,
so if we are asking for more imbued cards how about some more Baali
tech to make some more cards for the not so often played Baali...
Rhavas
You've got my vote! I'd love to see more Baali tech! How about an
Imbued and Baali set: 'The Hated and the Damned'?
Dragos
> game before more Imbued cards are printed imo. There are baseline
> problems that need to be solved before Imbued are specifically dealt
> with.
>
problems you refer to?
Dan
witness1
There are very rarely 90 _distinct_ cards in a starter deck, much less
90 _new_ cards. Baseline 2 copies of each of the proposed 20 new
cards, add in some NoR reprints, generic equipment, a couple of On the
Qui Vive, and some rules cards. Congratulations, you have a starter.
-witness1
Todd Banister
> Cybele get played (the other's being there for the occasional
> entertainment deck) with the same going for the Baali/Daimoinon cards,
> so if we are asking for more imbued cards how about some more Baali
> tech to make some more cards for the not so often played Baali...
But the difference in your example is that the Baali were introduced in the
Bloodlines expansion. They then were given additional support cards and
vamps in KMW. They also received 2x additional cards via promos. They have
not remained stagnant as the Imbued have since their introduction.
This isn't any difference than the other aspects of the game. Each of these
were introduced in one set and then gained additional support in later
set(s).
Anarchs
Black Hand
Red List
Laibon
Matter of fact, is there any other aspect to the game that _hasn't_ received
some sort of support from a later expansion besides the Imbued? Can't think
of anything off of the top of my head...
I'm not going to argue the Imbued power level as I think this has been
rehashed over and over in the past. I will simply say that I strongly feel
like the Imbued should receive additional support (like all other aspects of
the game) in a future set (hopefully soon). It almost certainly won't be a
full stand alone set (as explained by Jeff) but there is no reason not to
grant them new cards in a future set (along with whatever other theme in
that particular set).
Simply run them through a nice long playtest and let the design system do
what it does best (create new and interesting angles to the game).
Todd Banister
Dragos
wrote:
Totally agreed...and Cold Iron vulnerability has not received any
additional support recently ;)
Johannes Walch
> One argument for some of the imbued cards being less played seems to
> be the (not enough cards) angle. However if suddenly new imbued cards
> get in which allow those not played imbued to be playable you
> obviously will also increase the power level of the existing ones that
> already can be played,
Just by stating something is obvious does not make it true :-) Why will
new cards *necessarily* boost the power-level of the existing good
Imbued archetype? There are 4 at the moment in my opinion: Flash
Grenades, Pure Block/Champion, Chainsaw Dance, Darby Dance Bleed.
However all those archetypes rely on Jenny and usually also Travis. Just
make the new Imbued card usable by virtues or creeds that are != Jenny
and Travis and you should be fine. Playtesting can handle that as well.
What is a real problem with Imbued is that you totally depend on Jenny.
I would rather see that Jenny�s special was not so crucial for Imbued
perhaps in exchange for a global de-powering.
librarian
Disarm et al.
best -
chris
suoli
> What is a real problem with Imbued is that you totally depend on Jenny.
> I would rather see that Jenny´s special was not so crucial for Imbued
> perhaps in exchange for a global de-powering.
It would be better to just nerf/ban Jennie. Currently any Imbued with
2 Convictions can jump under a train during his turn and get out of
the hospital during the next untap phase, without a chance of a pillow
facing. As if they didn't already have enough advantages in the war of
attrition.
witness1
I think the game would have been a little better if Jennie's special
had been split into two separate ones (come out cheaper vs. come out
anytime) and given to two different imbued with little or no overlap
in virtues.
Speaking more generally, though, the 3-conviction cost to leave
incapacitated is really harsh (as Johannes hinted above). Most games
it doesn't matter, but games when it does are pretty close to auto-
lose without Jennie.
-witness1
Malone
Seriously? The fact that (most) allies have arms but their arms
cannot be metaphorically torn off by the card called Disarm disturbs
you so much that you consider it as requiring "a thorough redress of
the way allies work in the game"??
witness1
No, I suspect he means all the cards that interact poorly with the
imbued, taken as a group, disturb him that much. (I infer that from
his clever use of the phrase 'et al').
I'm not sure exactly what he means by "a thorough redress of the way
allies work", but I'm generally supportive of similar (though perhaps
a bit less powerful) cards being printed that are functional against
allies (and in particular, allies which don't burn when reduced to
zero life), and I'd be content to wait on new imbued cards until the
issue has been at least partially addressed.
-witness1
Johannes Walch
> Speaking more generally, though, the 3-conviction cost to leave
> incapacitated is really harsh (as Johannes hinted above). Most games
> it doesn't matter, but games when it does are pretty close to auto-
> lose without Jennie.
Really? I was thinking the come out in your untap was more harsh since
you are most likely being pillowfaced by then. It would remove the
natural resilience of Imbued against combat because they do not pop
right out again, but in an over-the-top way because then they never come
out again.
Johannes Walch
> I think the game would have been a little better if Jennie's special
> had been split into two separate ones (come out cheaper vs. come out
> anytime) and given to two different imbued with little or no overlap
> in virtues.
Some effects should have been less good but then the gaining of
convictions outside of your 1 per minion in the untap should have been
easier. That would also make other Imbued cards playable.
witness1
Three conviction means three turns worth of resources spent to get out
a guy who's going to go right back to the hospital from hands-for-one
and then stay there for three more turns.
Having to wait until my own untap to leave incapacitated doesn't
bother me so much, because unless I just lunged at my prey, I've
typically left enough untapped minions to block every minion my
predator controls. Even if he incaps them all, they will come back out
on my turn.
Specific situations change the dynamic, but that's how it generally
rolls for me.
-witness1
witness1
I'd like to see more effects like that (though Edge Explosion was far
too much), but conviction are good enough on their own that many of
the cards that cost will suck no matter how much faster you can gain
it.
-witness1
Firelight
Master
Unique hunter-list
Requires Avenger
When an imbued you control burns a monster or sends a vampire to
torpor, he or she gains one conviction at the end of the action.
Johannes Walch
Sonja Blue ADV, being able to play cards as an Imbued perhaps having 2
virtues or so.
XZealot
Could she burn a virtue to keep from being stolen?
Johannes Walch
Yeah, burn a React with Conviction to keep from being stolen.
Also the [merged] ability could probably be to remove the steal clause.
Rishabh Pandey
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