Thoughts Betrayed Proposal
The Corrupter
After a recent Jyhad game, several people in my playgroup were discussing
the card. In general, we had quite different opinions on it (varying
from it being a horribly broken card to it being a useful, but not
overly-powerful card). The only thing that we agreed upon was that its
ability to _completely_ disallow any card-in-hand response is pretty
ludicrous. There should always be some semblance of struggle, and TB
pretty much removes that.
From LSJ's card index:
Thoughts Betrayed *** Combat Dominate 2 blood
Normal: Only usable before combat begins. Opposing minion takes an
additional 1 damage in the first round of combatduring strike
resolution.
Superior: Only usable before combat begins. Opposing minion cannot {play}
any cards until after combat.
Official
Rulings
-May (must) be played outside of combat (before combatbegins). [TOM 951209]
-The superior version only prevents cards from being played. Cards already
in play may be used as appropriate (errata). [RTR]
-If the acting vampire uses Thoughts Betrayed, then the Blocking minion is
prohibited from doing so. [TOM 951214]
-Is played "as combat is enetred" - will not prevent reaction cards from
being played. [RTR]
---
My friend's solution is simple: Change the timing of TB thru its text:
Inferior: Play before range is determined. Opposing minion takes an
additional 1 damage in the first round of combat during strike
resolution.
Superior: Play before range is determined. Opposing minion cannot {play}
any cards while range is being determined until after combat.
(The second sentence could use some rewording)
A TB deck will still be able to get the jump on most offensive moves its
opponents may make. On the other hand, its opponents, after catching on
to a TB deck, will be able to do a number of things:
Aura Reading, Backstab, Claws of the Dead, Conquer the Beast,
Disease, Disguised (Concealed) Weapon, Drawing Out the Beast, Fists of
Death, Flesh of Marble, Horrid Reality, Illusions of the Kindred,
Increased Strength, Infernal Pursuit (last ditch), Shadow of the Wolf,
Silence of Death, Skin of Night, Thoughts Betrayed, Torn Signpost, Trap
(why?), Weather Control, Wolf Claws, and Zip Gun.
Of all the clans only Toreador is really limited in its choices (Aura
Reading, Infernal Pursuit, Trap, Zip Gun), and if the Toreador are in a
combat deck, they are likely to be using permanents.
We thought it was an extremely elegant solution. Other opinions? We'd
love to hear them.
@ The Corrupter - Adrian Lee Sullivan @ GAT/CS/WS R+++* r(+)>++
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PDB6
Basically the change is that you don't play Thoughts Betrayed until the
"decide range" phase. Can the vamp whos Thoughts are Betrayed manuver, or
does TB take place sort of between the "Pre manuver phase" and the
"Manuver phase"? I am assuming that manuvers are out.
Anyway, it is much better than TB as it is, but does not change TB too
substantially, so it looks like a house rule that could work. I always
prefered the TB just prohibits strikes idea that has been kicking around,
but in lieu of that, this version looks like a pretty good fix.
The vamp that plays TB still gets a big advantage, but at least the
defender can use pre manuver hand damage bonuses (like Torn Signpost or
Claws of the Dead), making close range combat still dangerous, and can
still use some damage prevention (Skin of Steel and Flesh of Marble).
Actually now that I think of it, in certain situations, this change makes
TB fairly useless, like against Gangrel (who can still use Claws of the
Dead and certain damage prevention), unless the TB player uses manuvers
and ranged strikes (like every good Tremere should). This change would
almost completely remove TB from the defensive card list (as it often
would not save you unless you also had manuvers to back it up), and make
it used almost purely in an offensive deck. Still, it looks like a better
version of the card than the current one.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
"Some of you are going to die
Martyrs of course to the freedom I shall provide."
-Genesis
L. Scott Johnson
Actually, it's Shane Travis' (Nicole Roy account usurper)'s card index.
I simply make copies available from my web page.
>We thought it was an extremely elegant solution. Other opinions? We'd
>love to hear them.
Yep. Nothing like house'ing a combat card to be played during combat :-)
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | I am Barney of Borg.
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | You will be nauseated.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |
The Corrupter
On 2 Jul 1996, PDB6 wrote:
> Basically the change is that you don't play Thoughts Betrayed until the
> "decide range" phase. Can the vamp whos Thoughts are Betrayed manuver, or
> does TB take place sort of between the "Pre manuver phase" and the
> "Manuver phase"? I am assuming that manuvers are out.
Between phases. The wording (however cumbersome) is such that the
fake-TB disallows playment of cards beginning with choosing range. So,
manuevers are nixed.
> Anyway, it is much better than TB as it is, but does not change TB too
> substantially, so it looks like a house rule that could work. I always
> prefered the TB just prohibits strikes idea that has been kicking around,
> but in lieu of that, this version looks like a pretty good fix.
> The vamp that plays TB still gets a big advantage, but at least the
> defender can use pre manuver hand damage bonuses (like Torn Signpost or
> Claws of the Dead), making close range combat still dangerous, and can
> still use some damage prevention (Skin of Steel
Skin of Steel cannot be played until damage is being prevented.
> and Flesh of Marble).
> Actually now that I think of it, in certain situations, this change makes
> TB fairly useless, like against Gangrel (who can still use Claws of the
> Dead and certain damage prevention), unless the TB player uses manuvers
> and ranged strikes (like every good Tremere should).
Exactly. With TB there was no need for robust combat, with
new-improved-TB, robust combat becomes essential, and struggle is
reintroduced. No longer is combat a cakewalk. (If my playgroup
implements this house rule, my Giovanni Diablerie deck will certainly
suffer :( )
> This change would
> almost completely remove TB from the defensive card list (as it often
> would not save you unless you also had manuvers to back it up), and make
> it used almost purely in an offensive deck. Still, it looks like a better
> version of the card than the current one.
I think it is still extremely useful defensively, especially if combined
with a single permanent (IR goggles, Saturday Night Special, Flak Jacket,
etc.)