Deck Questions
RoddPrime
a few weeks now and I thought I would get the input of the general
community.... perhaps you guys could determine what decks I build and
I can report on how they do! I would very much like the decks to be
solid and high level quality (though I do realize it is just as
reliant on the player's skills). Part of my mission is to understand
the deck concepts better, why they may or may not do well, viability
in today's environment, and looking to build and play something out of
the norm for myself.
I am thinking of building probably 3 different decks in the near
future. And it largely comes down to three different flavors. Without
further delay:
1) Stealth + Vote. I have never really played one of these decks
before. Typically I have played Ventrue Toolbox or something that
gives me permanent standing votes, but relies on the +1 inherit
stealth of vote cards and other tricky cards (ie. Perfect Paragon). I
have also dabbled in weenie vote such as Legacy of Pander and both of
the vote variations (toolbox or weenie) have done quite well (have won
several tables and made it to several final tables in tournaments).
What I am not really fond of with Stealth + Vote seems to be their
inherit fragility. By that I don't see much against combat, big bleed,
or block denial beyond stealth. Further, several of these decks such
as Death Star and DoC (more block denial than stealth) rely on key
master cards to be able to do much. I find having standing votes helps
more and is consistent. Between those two at least Death Star has Fee
Stakes. And if there are other vote decks at the table such as Ventrue
you have little to stop their votes unless you are carrying presence
vote boosting cards or canceling referendums. Despite all of this I
am willing to play this if it still seems like a viable deck option.
From what I gather they are slower than power vote decks and aim for a
quick oust in hopefully 1 turn. However, tell me a table that someone
isn't going to see it coming a mile away (now that everyone knows it
when they see it, post NAC 2008). Some ideas I had that were different
than the normal stealth vote decks I have seen was Gangrel Stealth
vote via protean cards and think it could do well. Tremere with Mirror
Walks, Ravnos w/Occlusion, and new Malk with Wrong and Crosswise. Out
of those I think the only real solid deck would be Gangrel as the rest
have limited stealth and typically high costing vamps. Nos, Assamite,
Malk. and FoS seem to be solid Sealth + Vote decks. Experience,
knowledge, opinions, and direction appreciated.
2) Bleed. I have played the typical Dominate, Malk 1.0, and Malk 2.0
and they seem to work very well. Despite all of this I was
considering a strict Dementation deck with maybe some Touch of Clarity
or Wake + Telepathic Misdirection added in for flavor (although a fast
crypt is more important). What about going with a typical Malk bleed
deck with Madness Network? Too fragile or what? I wouldn't think the
deck would have to be uber aggressive and maybe focusing more on
Deflections and Obedience with eventually pulling Madness Network and
truly bleeding. Lastly, something I have not tried but have seen a
variation played once is Black Hand Bleed. I like the Heidelberg +
Guarded Rubrics, etc. trick. But, my knowledge of the decks
performance in a standard tournament is less than I would like. Any
thoughts would be nice.
3) Combat with small to mid cap Potence or Animalism. These decks
seem to be more viable than ever with Preternatural Strength, Heroic
Strength (less applicable with small caps), Slam, Horse Shoes, Touch
of Pain, Target Vitals, Deep Song, etc. Do one of these decks stand
out more than another? Are they just seeing more play b/c of people
trying out new cards? Would something like Camera Phones go well in
these decks so you are bleeding for more than 1 per vamp? If not then
are you relying on swarm bleed to get your ousts quick enough? Should
one worry about Agg. damage? Would adding in protean agg (claws, etc.)
in the Animalism deck be going too far? What direction would you go?
4) Lastly Weenie Auspex. To be honest I know that weenie Auspex has a
plethora of cards to gain intercept and bounce with Telepathic
Misdirection, but I don't get how that puts down the vamps it blocks
or gets you an oust. To me it sounds more like a deck that is a bad
predator. However, I see people mentioning this deck or the concept
left and right. Did I miss something? Or were they talking about an
Intercept Combat deck like Tzim?
Again, thanks in advance. Other reasons I sometimes put these posts up
are to get people thinking, help others out who would rather read than
post their own questions, and to see how people play or view things
outside my local playgroup. Knowledge is power.
Izaak
"RoddPrime" <rodd...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:0a9fdefb-cd39-41cb...@d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
>I have been toying with some new general ideas for some new decks for
> a few weeks now and I thought I would get the input of the general
> community.... perhaps you guys could determine what decks I build and
> I can report on how they do! I would very much like the decks to be
> solid and high level quality (though I do realize it is just as
> reliant on the player's skills). Part of my mission is to understand
> the deck concepts better, why they may or may not do well, viability
> in today's environment, and looking to build and play something out of
> the norm for myself.
>
> I am thinking of building probably 3 different decks in the near
> future. And it largely comes down to three different flavors. Without
> further delay:
>
> 1) Stealth + Vote.
<snip>
I'm working on a Tremere Stealth/Vote deck with the new group 4/5 crypt.
Gerald Windham and Dr. John Dee make an excellent vote crypt and with mirror
walk, Gerald calls votes at +3 stealth. Added tech can be Magic of the Smith
to dig up Agate Talismans. So far it looks promising; your have 4 "table"
votes with Joh Dee out, add 1 for the card and it's a good start.
Other than that I'd be looking at Nosferatu who can play vote push by means
of Old Friends and Animal Magnetism.
> 2) Bleed.
<snip>
Mono Dementation with Jacky and Midget seems to do very well lately. Don't
worry about defense, gain pool with Kindred Spirits, use Confusion and Deny
as stealth and swarm your prey.
> 3) Combat with small to mid cap Potence or Animalism.
Instead of phones and swarms, people generally rely on Fame, Tension in the
Ranks and Dragonbound to do the ousting. Army of Rats is pretty ok as well
and I see tier of souls being played a fair amount lately. That's however,
for more animalism heavy combat.
> 4) Lastly Weenie Auspex. To be honest I know that weenie Auspex has a
> plethora of cards to gain intercept and bounce with Telepathic
> Misdirection, but I don't get how that puts down the vamps it blocks
> or gets you an oust.
Some people play concealed Saturday Night specials, but most just play 60
white cards and a few smiling jacks. The idea is not to kill your prey's
vamps. The idea is to make him unable to act. In most tournaments, combat is
few and far between so you can just suffice with blocking and punching for
one. The weenie in weenie Auspex makes sure you have spare actions to hunt,
place a few pressure bleeds (for one) and still have ample minions left to
block with impunity. Once your prey is low-ish drop the smiling jack and
collect VP's. Use Eagle Sight to prevent your grandprey from being ousted.
The Lasombra
> I have been toying with some new general ideas for some new decks for
> a few weeks now and I thought I would get the input of the general
> community....
> I am thinking of building probably 3 different decks in the near
> future. And it largely comes down to three different flavors. Without
> further delay:
That's an awful lot to request from a single post.
> 1) Stealth + Vote. I have never really played one of these decks
> before.
Lasombra with Power Structure. Breeding, or not, doesn't particularly
matter. Ventrue with Obfuscate is also Stealth Vote. Protean/
Presence also does it. Dual Form/Cardinal Benediction has proven
strong. Every vote deck needs to be able to manage 7-11 pool damage
in a single turn or it won't be able to oust its prey reliably.
> 2) Bleed. I have played the typical Dominate, Malk 1.0, and Malk 2.0
> and they seem to work very well. Despite all of this I was
> considering a strict Dementation deck with maybe some Touch of Clarity
> or Wake + Telepathic Misdirection added in for flavor (although a fast
> crypt is more important). What about going with a typical Malk bleed
> deck with Madness Network?
What will you do against the table's actions against the MN when you
are a "bleed deck"? You would need to add significant defense (ala
Rachel/Earth Meld or group 1/2 Obedience) to keep the MN around for
any length of time. If you fly under the radar by leaving all of your
minions untapped for one turn to defend MN, then explode on your
predator's turn and your own, you may get a VP, but you will
definitely be seen as the threat and your MN will be gone. If you
have the cards to defend, and no one attempts to take out the MN, you
won't be able to take out your prey. It is quite a dilemma.
> 3) Combat with small to mid cap Potence or Animalism.
Deep Song is the key to making rush combat successful with weenie
animalism. Your rush cards doubling as plus bleeds cards can be very
strong. Equipment is too slow. See also: previous discussions/
evaluations of computer hacking vs. laptop computer.
> 4) Lastly Weenie Auspex. To be honest I know that weenie Auspex has a
> plethora of cards to gain intercept and bounce with Telepathic
> Misdirection, but I don't get how that puts down the vamps it blocks
> or gets you an oust.
Weenie Auspex doesn't need to "put down the vamps it blocks", it just
needs permanent pool gain and lots and lots of minions. When you
can't lose pool, and you have some pool gain, you can bleed for one
with 5 minions and eventually get thru anyone.
RoddPrime
> "RoddPrime" <roddpr...@gmail.com> schreef in berichtnews:0a9fdefb-cd39-41cb...@d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
>
> >I have been toying with some new general ideas for some new decks for
> > a few weeks now and I thought I would get the input of the general
> > community.... perhaps you guys could determine what decks I build and
> > I can report on how they do! I would very much like the decks to be
> > solid and high level quality (though I do realize it is just as
> > reliant on the player's skills). Part of my mission is to understand
> > the deck concepts better, why they may or may not do well, viability
> > in today's environment, and looking to build and play something out of
> > the norm for myself.
>
> > I am thinking of building probably 3 different decks in the near
> > future. And it largely comes down to three different flavors. Without
> > further delay:
>
> > 1) Stealth + Vote.
>
> <snip>
>
> I'm working on a Tremere Stealth/Vote deck with the new group 4/5 crypt.
> Gerald Windham and Dr. John Dee make an excellent vote crypt and with mirror
> walk, Gerald calls votes at +3 stealth. Added tech can be Magic of the Smith
> to dig up Agate Talismans. So far it looks promising; your have 4 "table"
> votes with Joh Dee out, add 1 for the card and it's a good start.
>
> Other than that I'd be looking at Nosferatu who can play vote push by means
> of Old Friends and Animal Magnetism.
>
<snip>
Would a Gangrel deck with Protean Stealth and Praxis cards not work?
Are the methods of relying heavily on Praxis, etc. not worth the risk
anymore? Just curious as I believe it could def. be a good deck or if
needed could add some vamps with some titles to get the push going. If
nothing else Cryptic Rider could help out, etc.
And would Malks gain too much table hate for just being Malks
regardless of whether they are bleeding or not?
> > 2) Bleed.
>
> <snip>
>
> Mono Dementation with Jacky and Midget seems to do very well lately. Don't
> worry about defense, gain pool with Kindred Spirits, use Confusion and Deny
> as stealth and swarm your prey.
>
<snip>
Is it purely the deck running smooth (less potential for hand jam) as
to why this deck is doing well? What other vamps would you suggest in
such a crypt?
> > 3) Combat with small to mid cap Potence or Animalism.
>
> Instead of phones and swarms, people generally rely on Fame, Tension in the
> Ranks and Dragonbound to do the ousting. Army of Rats is pretty ok as well
> and I see tier of souls being played a fair amount lately. That's however,
> for more animalism heavy combat.
>
> > 4) Lastly Weenie Auspex. To be honest I know that weenie Auspex has a
> > plethora of cards to gain intercept and bounce with Telepathic
> > Misdirection, but I don't get how that puts down the vamps it blocks
> > or gets you an oust.
>
> Some people play concealed Saturday Night specials, but most just play 60
> white cards and a few smiling jacks. The idea is not to kill your prey's
> vamps. The idea is to make him unable to act. In most tournaments, combat is
> few and far between so you can just suffice with blocking and punching for
> one. The weenie in weenie Auspex makes sure you have spare actions to hunt,
> place a few pressure bleeds (for one) and still have ample minions left to
> block with impunity. Once your prey is low-ish drop the smiling jack and
> collect VP's. Use Eagle Sight to prevent your grandprey from being ousted.
Would you go with any particular decks from this list over another
beyond Nos vote? And with Nos Vote would you use the old school Nos
vamps who have titles?
Thanks
RoddPrime
First I will ask a question. Beyond Power Bases, what permanents would
you suggest to gain pool? Blood doll and perfectionist/rack help, but
in a weenie auspex maybe not. Regarding the MN I was thinking more
along the lines of some intercept and less bleed.
Regarding my lot of many questions you are indeed correct. Although I
wanted more thoughts, tech. explanation, and real game analogies. I
figure the collective knowledge and experience is far more than one
person can ever achieve. Plus other people will have other takes and
angles perhaps you didn't fully exploit or even think of. If this were
to flesh out one or maybe two decks that I already had a card list for
then they would be deserving of their own post (I don't want to be a
post monkey either). As it is I am trying to decide what the better
options are or aren't in pursuing building a deck. Plus I hope to
never hear "your deck is bad" or "build a better deck" in any serious
game. Of course the pursuit of a few different cards to build a deck
is a lot easier than trying to build everything (that would make me go
broke).
Thanks for the help
Rehlow
>
> 1) Stealth + Vote. I have never really played one of these decks
> before. Typically I have played Ventrue Toolbox or something that
> gives me permanent standing votes, but relies on the +1 inherit
> stealth of vote cards and other tricky cards (ie. Perfect Paragon). I
> have also dabbled in weenie vote such as Legacy of Pander and both of
> the vote variations (toolbox or weenie) have done quite well (have won
> several tables and made it to several final tables in tournaments).
> What I am not really fond of with Stealth + Vote seems to be their
> inherit fragility. By that I don't see much against combat, big bleed,
> or block denial beyond stealth. Further, several of these decks such
> as Death Star and DoC (more block denial than stealth) rely on key
> master cards to be able to do much. I find having standing votes helps
> more and is consistent. Between those two at least Death Star has Fee
> Stakes. And if there are other vote decks at the table such as Ventrue
> you have little to stop their votes unless you are carrying presence
> vote boosting cards or canceling referendums. Despite all of this I
> am willing to play this if it still seems like a viable deck option.
> From what I gather they are slower than power vote decks and aim for a
> quick oust in hopefully 1 turn. However, tell me a table that someone
> isn't going to see it coming a mile away (now that everyone knows it
> when they see it, post NAC 2008).
Its hard to spend the entire game at 16+ pool. It doesn't really
matter if they see it coming, Death Star can lunge an incredibly long
distance. It does have a single point of failure, so if you are
anticipating a large amount of DI it might miss its mark.
Later,
~Rehlow
The Lasombra
> First I will ask a question. Beyond Power Bases, what permanents would
> you suggest to gain pool? Blood doll and perfectionist/rack help, but
> in a weenie auspex maybe not.
Powerbase: Montreal, hunting grounds, Rebel, arcane library/art
museum, are all appropriate pool gain options for weenie Auspex.
Perfectionist is only good if you are taking actions, which weenie
Auspex mostly won't be. Rack wouldn't hurt, as you are planning to
block all actions against you anyway.
There are dozens of weenie Auspex decks in the TWDA, you could dive
into them to see more specific examples of pool gain.
> Regarding the MN I was thinking more along the lines of some intercept and less bleed.
I'm not sure you need to bother with Madness Network if you want to
build an intercept deck....
Lutz can Night Moves with the Enkil Cog to get you the Edge, if you
want to use out of turn actions to gain you pool.
The value of the Madness Network is in one of two options:
1) Acting on your prey's turn so that they cannot play Archon
Investigation.
2) Acting on your predator's turn so that you can double all of your
actions once around the table.
librarian
> I have been toying with some new general ideas for some new decks for
> a few weeks now and I thought I would get the input of the general
> community.... perhaps you guys could determine what decks I build and
> I can report on how they do! I would very much like the decks to be
> solid and high level quality (though I do realize it is just as
> reliant on the player's skills). Part of my mission is to understand
> the deck concepts better, why they may or may not do well, viability
> in today's environment, and looking to build and play something out of
> the norm for myself.
>
> I am thinking of building probably 3 different decks in the near
> future. And it largely comes down to three different flavors. Without
> further delay:
You actually asked about 4 types of decks. Are you thinking of 3 of the 4?
>
> 1) Stealth + Vote. I have never really played one of these decks
> before. Typically I have played Ventrue Toolbox or something that
> gives me permanent standing votes, but relies on the +1 inherit
> stealth of vote cards and other tricky cards (ie. Perfect Paragon). I
> have also dabbled in weenie vote such as Legacy of Pander and both of
> the vote variations (toolbox or weenie) have done quite well (have won
> several tables and made it to several final tables in tournaments).
> What I am not really fond of with Stealth + Vote seems to be their
> inherit fragility. By that I don't see much against combat, big bleed,
> or block denial beyond stealth.
Vs combat: Obfuscate has a maneuver (Swallowed by the Night) and a S:CE
now. Use them. Big bleed use ConBoon all day. There are other
options, depending on what you pair the Obf with (Vermulen/Casino for
Nos Princes; Enchant down with PRe, etc etc). I don't know what you
mean by block denial beyond stealth. Don't block too much - be very
selective with your 2nd trads if you use them at all. For block denial,
you can use Elder Impersonation or several of the Presence tricks.
Further, several of these decks such
> as Death Star and DoC (more block denial than stealth) rely on key
> master cards to be able to do much. I find having standing votes helps
> more and is consistent. Between those two at least Death Star has Fee
> Stakes. And if there are other vote decks at the table such as Ventrue
> you have little to stop their votes unless you are carrying presence
> vote boosting cards or canceling referendums. Despite all of this I
> am willing to play this if it still seems like a viable deck option.
I think the Praxis route doesn't work unless you are a very skillful
negotiator. It's hard to pass those vote-gaining cards because
eventually, even your crosstable ally will be your pred or prey.
> From what I gather they are slower than power vote decks and aim for a
> quick oust in hopefully 1 turn. However, tell me a table that someone
> isn't going to see it coming a mile away (now that everyone knows it
> when they see it, post NAC 2008). Some ideas I had that were different
> than the normal stealth vote decks I have seen was Gangrel Stealth
> vote via protean cards and think it could do well.
Protean stalth is expensive.
Tremere with Mirror
> Walks, Ravnos w/Occlusion, and new Malk with Wrong and Crosswise. Out
> of those I think the only real solid deck would be Gangrel as the rest
> have limited stealth and typically high costing vamps.
Agreed.
Nos, Assamite,
> Malk. and FoS seem to be solid Sealth + Vote decks. Experience,
> knowledge, opinions, and direction appreciated.
>
You are correct. Lutz vote decks are strong.
> 2) Bleed. I have played the typical Dominate, Malk 1.0, and Malk 2.0
> and they seem to work very well. Despite all of this I was
> considering a strict Dementation deck with maybe some Touch of Clarity
> or Wake + Telepathic Misdirection added in for flavor (although a fast
> crypt is more important). What about going with a typical Malk bleed
> deck with Madness Network? Too fragile or what? I wouldn't think the
> deck would have to be uber aggressive and maybe focusing more on
> Deflections and Obedience with eventually pulling Madness Network and
> truly bleeding. Lastly, something I have not tried but have seen a
> variation played once is Black Hand Bleed. I like the Heidelberg +
> Guarded Rubrics, etc. trick. But, my knowledge of the decks
> performance in a standard tournament is less than I would like. Any
> thoughts would be nice.
>
At the end of the day, all decks usually bleed some. I think describing
a deck as "bleed" you need some sort of descriptor.
Weenie Dem Bleed is very popular right now. It is very focused, and you
can put 1 Coma in there, if not to use, then to discard to make the
combat folks think twice. I'd skip the tele misd and the touch of
clarity. Use Narrow Minds to help you keep your bleeds on target.
> 3) Combat with small to mid cap Potence or Animalism. These decks
> seem to be more viable than ever with Preternatural Strength, Heroic
> Strength (less applicable with small caps), Slam, Horse Shoes, Touch
> of Pain, Target Vitals, Deep Song, etc. Do one of these decks stand
> out more than another?
I like both Potence and Animalism. Right now though my Ani decks seem
to be faring better due to Deep Song. With Tier of Souls and Deep Song,
you can really become a very efficient bleed deck. Carrion Crows/Aid
from bats is really good. And there are several 3-cap ANI Vamps, but
it's not as cheap to get POT in a given group. And Ani also has access
to intercept, which Pot doesn't. I'd lean towards Ani myself.
Are they just seeing more play b/c of people
> trying out new cards? Would something like Camera Phones go well in
> these decks so you are bleeding for more than 1 per vamp? If not then
> are you relying on swarm bleed to get your ousts quick enough? Should
> one worry about Agg. damage? Would adding in protean agg (claws, etc.)
> in the Animalism deck be going too far? What direction would you go?
>
I'd skip the Camera phones. Agg damage is a worry, but just man long
with Aid from Bats. If you are playing Gangrel, then maybe add one
Claws of the Dead, again to discard like the Coma above (or use if the
opportunity presents itself...).
> 4) Lastly Weenie Auspex. To be honest I know that weenie Auspex has a
> plethora of cards to gain intercept and bounce with Telepathic
> Misdirection, but I don't get how that puts down the vamps it blocks
> or gets you an oust. To me it sounds more like a deck that is a bad
> predator. However, I see people mentioning this deck or the concept
> left and right. Did I miss something? Or were they talking about an
> Intercept Combat deck like Tzim?
>
My AUS walls never work. I've seen them be very effective however. But
they are more effective vs a deck that has to set up a little. I'd
sprinkle in some Target Vitals and some Weighted Walking Sticks. If you
are going to use guns, I'd use Sniper Rifles, since you can conceal
them. Others may eschew combat altogether, since that will just get in
the way of the blocky stuff.
Good luck.
best -
chris
cthulukitty
> variation played once is Black Hand Bleed. I like the Heidelberg +
> Guarded Rubrics, etc. trick. But, my knowledge of the decks
> performance in a standard tournament is less than I would like. Any
> thoughts would be nice.
Based on what you've said here (and in another previous post IIRC),
the deck you're talking about was probably similar to, if not directly
based on my Ninja Parade deck that won the US National this year. I've
been playing variations of that deck since before the release of Lords
of the Night (Djuhah the Bronze Bow obviously made it much much
better), including in a number of tournaments. Since you seem to be
interested, I'll fill you in on some of the major strengths and
weaknesses.
Historically, one of the biggest advantages I had with the deck was
that fairly few players understood what was happening until it was too
late to do anything. I'd have a bunch of guys on the table doing
stealthy Black Hand stuff or what have you, but without showing any
obvious +bleed. This would lull my preys into a false sense of
security, and they would often spend more pool than they should have.
When the permanent +bleed and swapping technology finally hits the
table (which sometimes would happen all at the same time), my base
bleed on the table would jump from 3 or 4 to as much as 10 or more.
Not shockingly, players are seldom able to respond effectively in time
to avoid being ousted. At this point it's far less likely that this
advantage will be in play, but it seems worth mentioning.
The other main advantage has already been alluded to, and that is that
the deck relies on a fairly small handful of cards to provide its
ousting power. Standard stealth bleed decks need to continuously draw
into an appropriate mix of transient bleed increasers and stealth
cards in order to operate at peak efficiency. With the Ninja Parade,
all you need to do is get the bleed cards onto the table and then keep
drawing stealth. This leaves room in the deck for a truly absurd
amount of stealth (nearly half of the 80 card deck in the USNC
version), as well as a variety of useful actions and reactions such as
Reunion Kamut, Truth in Ink, and Zillah's Tears.
The crypt is also extremely cheap, and is made even cheaper by Reunion
Kamut. This helps you get a fast start at putting your permanents into
play, and given a good starting hand you can start moving ridiculously
quickly in the early phase of the game (though this may or may not be
desirable, given what else is happening on the table). Don't let this
fool you into thinking that you should play the deck like a weenie
deck though. The goal isn't necessarily to bring out a huge swarm of
vampires, and there's really no reason to have more than 4 in play,
unless you end up with a huge surplus of pool. In my experience it's
better just to keep all the pool you're saving to patch the deck's
primary disadvantage: lack of defense.
A similarly fast and aggressive predator can make life incredibly
difficult for this deck. Bleed reduction from Truth in Ink is very
helpful, especially when a single vampire remains untapped and plays
multiple copies over the course of a turn. However, if you're facing
large bleeds, simply reducing them may not be enough to keep you in
the game. Vote is potentially even worse, since it's very hard to get
titles into a Black Hand deck. If you're being preyed on by a vote or
bleed deck intent on ousting you, you'll need to work very hard to
stay in the game, and you may need to avoid spending pool on important
permanents. If this situation occurs, just to try to hang on, bloating
and reducing damage as much as you possibly can. If things go well,
your predator may be hamstrung by your grandpredator or some other
turn of events. Once you have a safe opening, you may be able to dump
your offense onto the table and set up a successful lunge.
I hope that information is helpful, or at least interesting. Good
luck.
Jesse
Curevei
> I have been toying with some new general ideas for some new decks for
> a few weeks now and I thought I would get the input of the general
> community.... perhaps you guys could determine what decks I build and
> I can report on how they do! I would very much like the decks to be
> solid and high level quality (though I do realize it is just as
> reliant on the player's skills). Part of my mission is to understand
> the deck concepts better, why they may or may not do well, viability
> in today's environment, and looking to build and play something out of
> the norm for myself.
> 1) Stealth + Vote.
> What I am not really fond of with Stealth + Vote seems to be their
> inherit fragility. By that I don't see much against combat, big bleed,
> or block denial beyond stealth.
There are lots of different ways to add stealth to voting. So many
that it's hard to address your concern. However, if bleed bothers
you, play a deck with Dominate.
> And if there are other vote decks at the table such as Ventrue
> you have little to stop their votes unless you are carrying presence
> vote boosting cards or canceling referendums.
There are two big reasons to have stealth in a vote deck. One is
that, obviously, voting is a two-step process. The first step is
getting the action through, the second is passing the vote (and the
third is getting by Delaying Tactics). Stealth addresses the first.
If both could be easily addressed, then why play anything else?
The second is that a stealth vote deck can use that stealth for other
things besides voting, like bleeding. There's a line about this in
the Player's Guide. If you can't pass a vote, you can still try to
bleed some and hope that works or things change in the game.
Now, other good vote decks have ways of dealing with being blocked.
Ventrue Law Firm can outaction a deck's ability to block, for
instance. But, those can be even trickier to play right.
> Despite all of this I
> am willing to play this if it still seems like a viable deck option.
> From what I gather they are slower than power vote decks and aim for a
> quick oust in hopefully 1 turn. However, tell me a table that someone
> isn't going to see it coming a mile away (now that everyone knows it
> when they see it, post NAC 2008). Some ideas I had that were different
> than the normal stealth vote decks I have seen was Gangrel Stealth
> vote via protean cards and think it could do well. Tremere with Mirror
> Walks, Ravnos w/Occlusion, and new Malk with Wrong and Crosswise. Out
> of those I think the only real solid deck would be Gangrel as the rest
> have limited stealth and typically high costing vamps. Nos, Assamite,
> Malk. and FoS seem to be solid Sealth + Vote decks. Experience,
> knowledge, opinions, and direction appreciated.
There's lots and lots of possibilities and they aren't all alike.
Shouldn't be grouping a breed/boon deck like Death Star in with
something like high cap FoS w/ Dominate. My advice is to search the
TWDA for tournaments with 40+ players.
How you play the deck is dependent upon how you build it. And, how
you build it is dependent upon how you want to play it. Actually,
these are just pretentious aphorisms that I don't really believe in, I
hardly play my decks at all anymore, seemingly always playing the
table no matter what my decks actually are supposed to do.
> 2) Bleed.
> What about going with a typical Malk bleed
> deck with Madness Network? Too fragile or what? I wouldn't think the
> deck would have to be uber aggressive and maybe focusing more on
> Deflections and Obedience with eventually pulling Madness Network and
> truly bleeding.
I don't like depending upon Madness Network for a deck to work. But,
it enables some abusive things even through casual use. I think you
can probably find master space for it if that's what you want to do.
> 3) Combat with small to mid cap Potence or Animalism. These decks
> seem to be more viable than ever with Preternatural Strength, Heroic
> Strength (less applicable with small caps), Slam, Horse Shoes, Touch
> of Pain, Target Vitals, Deep Song, etc. Do one of these decks stand
> out more than another? Are they just seeing more play b/c of people
> trying out new cards? Would something like Camera Phones go well in
> these decks so you are bleeding for more than 1 per vamp? If not then
> are you relying on swarm bleed to get your ousts quick enough? Should
> one worry about Agg. damage? Would adding in protean agg (claws, etc.)
> in the Animalism deck be going too far? What direction would you go?
I'm probably not a good person to give advice on combat decks since my
idea of beatdown is running a *second* .44 Magnum. Again, there are
plenty of examples in the TWDA of weenie Animalism and weenie
Potence. Midcap combat? Only if it's intercept combat.
> 4) Lastly Weenie Auspex. To be honest I know that weenie Auspex has a
> plethora of cards to gain intercept and bounce with Telepathic
> Misdirection, but I don't get how that puts down the vamps it blocks
> or gets you an oust. To me it sounds more like a deck that is a bad
> predator. However, I see people mentioning this deck or the concept
> left and right. Did I miss something? Or were they talking about an
> Intercept Combat deck like Tzim?
If you can't be ousted, keep bringing out more minions. In our
environment, that just times the game out. In faster environments,
you have time to turn the corner and swarm someone to death.
Note that most decks expect to gain some pool over the course of the
game. That's not as easy when a predator can block every key action
you take. You can grind a table out.
Why can't the deck put vampires down? If you look up decklists, I'm
sure you will find a number of guns being played. It's not
spectacular, but it's kind of hard to deal with having every action
blocked and being shot for 2 at long range in every fight.
By the way, why would an intercept combat Tzimisce deck be any more
effective as a predator?
Whatever the archetype, the deck should be built with some sort of
ousting plan in mind. Maybe Anarch Revolts and Constant Revolution
aren't that good for weenie anarch Auspex, maybe they are. There are
certainly examples of weenie Auspex winning large tournaments without
being tricked up.
I do believe that you have to restrain yourself from being overly
controllish when playing weenie Auspex. I don't know if it was Jay
Kristoff who said or someone talking about Jay playing weenie Auspex
who said something about managing how the table falls (kind of
applicable to any deck, but we are talking about a control deck
here). Weenie Auspex might be slow, but games go quicker when there
are fewer players in them and you only need a couple of rounds of 3
VPs to be playing in the final game.
wedge
Ishtarri trio Ayo, Undele and Ubende
They all have minor Obfuscate
Ayo can bounce bleeds
Is it good?
> 2) Bleed. The Assimite Black Hand bleed deck has alot of building before it can go.
Key Vampires are the two Seraphs I like 3,3,2,2,2
Key cards are Guarded Rubrics, Leather jacket, Tattoo Signal, Reunion
Kamut and stealth
Haqim`s Law: Leadership is another option Khabar: Glory if you include
Storage Annex
Defense is Nest of Eagles, Truth in Ink, Narrow Minds, Delay Tactics
and Alamut ( late game )
> 3) Combat with small to mid cap Potence or Animalism.
in the 3-4 there are 12 vampires w/ both 5(1), 6(2), 7(3), 8(6) Street
Creed?
would need alot of heroic might and preternatural strength 6 and 6? Am
I on crack?
Is this viable?
> 4) Lastly Weenie Auspex., but I don't get how that puts down the vamps it blocks
> or gets you an oust.
You don't put them down unless you play Target Vitals(or have the
Ivory Bow). Its is a swarm bleeder.
If you face one on the table the conventional wisdom is to hand jam
them on Intercept.
Let them flow untap,bounce and combat then they are toast. I think the
reason they do not do well now is that people have come to understand
this. Or maybe it is that Arenthebes and a lot of block denial has
been printed.
If you play this, do not be the table cop. You must let the combat
deck die, because it will school you. Same for block fails.
However, you must block (or DI) every No Secrets from the Magaji and
Arenthebes played no matter where they are sitting.
Matt
Aleksi Nuora
> 2) Bleed.
Imbued with Jennie. Liquidations+Ashur Tablets for bloat. Maybe some
Concealed Deagles and Target: Vitals? Basically a weenie deck with
permanent stealth, intercept, bleed and damage bonuses and nearly
indestructible minions.
cthulukitty
> > 2) Bleed. The Assimite Black Hand bleed deck has alot of building before it can go.
That's only sort of true. It does take a few cards in play before it
works right, but it's entirely possible to get them out quickly. As
anecdotal evidence, I ousted Jay Kristoff on turn 5 of the USNC final.
> Key Vampires are the two Seraphs I like 3,3,2,2,2
Uhhh....which 2 Seraphs are you referring to, and what other vampires
are you suggesting doubling and tripling? A little less vagueness is
certainly desirable, unless you'd like to play Do A Thing.
> Key cards are Guarded Rubrics, Leather jacket, Tattoo Signal, Reunion
> Kamut and stealth
Leather Jacket is far from a key card to the concept. I can see how
it's useful in the traditional darby dance sense, but there's just not
really enough to do on the react to justify clunking up your deck with
Leather. Other key cards are Heidelberg Castle, House of Sorrow,
Seraph's Second, Zillah's Tears, and Mustajib.
> Haqim`s Law: Leadership is another option Khabar: Glory if you include
> Storage Annex
> Defense is Nest of Eagles, Truth in Ink, Narrow Minds, Delay Tactics
> and Alamut ( late game )
Leadership is pretty much strictly inferior to Reunion Kamut in a deck
like this. Glory does not require the use of a Storage Annex, since it
functions just fine as +1 bleed when its other use is not forthcoming.
My versions of the deck use only Truth in Ink and not Nest of Eagles.
This is primarily because Djuhah is my only Assamite, and he is the
hardest guy to untap. So Truth in Ink is much much easier for the deck
to actually use. Narrow Minds and Alamut are both interesting, but I'd
suggest that there are much better things to do with those cards slots
and phase resources.
Jesse
wedge
> Wedge wrote:
> > > 2) Bleed. The ** Assimite ** Black Hand bleed deck has alot of building before it can go.
> > Key Vampires are the two Seraphs I like 3,3,2,2,2
>
> Uhhh....which 2 Seraphs are you referring to, and what other vampires
> are you suggesting doubling and tripling? A little less vagueness is
> certainly desirable, unless you'd like to play Do A Thing.
>
> > Key cards are Guarded Rubrics, Leather jacket, Tattoo Signal, Reunion
> > Kamut and stealth
>
> Leather Jacket is far from a key card to the concept.
I must be running more D#, I have found the Seraph ~Darby dance~ w/
bleed reduction to work well
> > Defense is Nest of Eagles, Truth in Ink, Narrow Minds, Delay Tactics
> > and Alamut ( late game )
>
> Leadership is pretty much strictly inferior to Reunion Kamut in a deck
> like this.
I agree, I run four.
> Narrow Minds and Alamut are both interesting, but I'd
> suggest that there are much better things to do with those cards slots
> and phase resources.
Assimites bleeding for three begs for Alamut. I don't care if there
were no votes in the deck.
If I am not bouncing, one slot for narrow minds, is always going to
happen. This deck is not so tight that can't have one slot open.
We are talking about different decks, and I didn't say mine was that
good.
I think I will change it to include small cap Black Hand w/ Obfuscate
to accelerate it.
Peter D Bakija
> 1) Stealth + Vote. I have never really played one of these decks
> before.
It looks like there are plenty of answers below already, but I'll
throw in before I check for redundancy :-)
Stealth Vote (generally Nosferatu or maybe Malk based) tends to
revolve around good, titled vampires, breeding with 3rd, Con Boon, and
Parity Shift. The archtypical Stealth Vote deck is G1/2 Nosferatu
(which David and I were both playing in the Qualifier Finals at
Origins)--between Selma, Murat, Nikolaus, and Calebros, you have 4
solid mid size princes. A lot of obfuscate means it is hard to block
you. Use of Justicar votes means it isn't that hard to get strong
table vote weight. Breeding and booning gets you a lot of pool. You
can always fall back on "Huh. I have 8 guys with obfuscate..." You can
have trouble if there is a lot of other vote on the table, as you have
limited to no vote push other than your titles and getting the edge
(which is where making, like, Dimple Justicar becomes huge, as you can
push that through just by having a lot of minions). These days, breed/
boon decks suffer from Scourge existing, but really, if you have a few
Uncoilings in your deck, you usually can survive ok.
The Assamites can pull of Stealth Vote pretty well too, but mostly by
virtue of Amavati (the guy who gives all Assamites a vote for a blood,
or whatever) and/or Alamut (the master location where bleeding your
prey gives you votes). The Anarch version (i.e. Death Star Cannon) is
getting much more from the Fee Stakes than it is the Revolutionary
Council, to the point that I have a very solid knock off deck that
just removes the Anarch angle all together, and is still very solid
(upping the numbers of Alamut and using multiples of Olugbenga helps a
lot).
> 2) Bleed. I have played the typical Dominate, Malk 1.0, and Malk 2.0
> and they seem to work very well. Despite all of this I was
> considering a strict Dementation deck with maybe some Touch of Clarity
> or Wake + Telepathic Misdirection added in for flavor (although a fast
> crypt is more important).
The really good deck is just all DEM/dem weenies that bleeds for 8 on
your second turn. It is fast. Really fast. And gets killed by fast
rush, but probably not fast enough to keep it from getting enough VPs
most tournaments.
> 3) Combat with small to mid cap Potence or Animalism. These decks
> seem to be more viable than ever with Preternatural Strength, Heroic
> Strength (less applicable with small caps), Slam, Horse Shoes, Touch
> of Pain, Target Vitals, Deep Song, etc. Do one of these decks stand
> out more than another?
Yeah, they aren't more viable then ever. Really. I know. Trust me.
Deep Song helps Ani Wenimalism (which is already a pretty good deck
type--weenie ANI guys with ravens and crows and bats) with some strong
offense, but really, it just means that 8 Computer Hackings and 6
Harass are now just 10 Deep Songs and a few other cards fit in. I
mean, good and all, but I don't think Ani Weenimalism is significantly
better than it used to be. Potence rush still blows. I mean, if you
get really good seating (i.e. your prey is a soft Malkavian deck every
game), you can do fine. But the issue with Potence rush is that your
entire deck strategy is often completely foiled by your predator or
prey having a dozen combat defense cards in their deck (Skin of Steel,
carrion crows for hit back, Obedience, whatever). So you are hosed by
a dozen or so cards, and their dozen or so cards still leaves plenty
of room for, like, Dominate or something.
I keep trying the Rush. I do ok--reliably get VPs, occasionally win
games, even in tournaments. But they are just too knife edge to really
rely on as something that can actually win, other than by stumbling
into it.
> 4) Lastly Weenie Auspex. To be honest I know that weenie Auspex has a
> plethora of cards to gain intercept and bounce with Telepathic
> Misdirection, but I don't get how that puts down the vamps it blocks
> or gets you an oust.
You have guns. Weenie Auspex is, really, "Weenie Auspex and Guns" most
of the time. You have a lot of little, cheap guys with AUS. You have
disguised magnums. You have enough bounce and intercept so that a not
particularly fighty predator isn't much of a threat, and you wear
folks down by blocking them and shooting them for 2 with your magnum.
It is really strong. I mean, yeah, an opponent that is going to throw
sewer lids at you every time you block is going to kill you, but those
don't come up all that much. For offense, things like Smiling Jack or
Anarch Revolt (where you block your prey going Anarch) are good. Like,
this kind of deck is rarely going to get more than a 3VP GW, but it is
good at doing that.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
Would a Gangrel deck with Protean Stealth and Praxis cards not work?
> Are the methods of relying heavily on Praxis, etc. not worth the risk
> anymore? Just curious as I believe it could def. be a good deck or if
> needed could add some vamps with some titles to get the push going. If
> nothing else Cryptic Rider could help out, etc.
Yes. G1/2 weenie PRO Gangrel is not that bad--almost strong,
especially now that Loki's Gift helps with vote push. My version
actually wins a reasonable amount of games. It has 6 Gangrel Justicar
and 6 Praxis Seizures for an early leg up. The trick is that you have
stealth and a lot of S:CE for combat defense. I don't know that this
kind of deck is strictly tier 1, but I win more than not with the
deck, and qualified with it last year in NYC.
> And would Malks gain too much table hate for just being Malks
> regardless of whether they are bleeding or not?
Nah. Like, a G1/2 Malk Stealth Vote deck revolving around Gilbert
Duane, Gregor Anderson, and Korah is reasonably strong as well.
> Is it purely the deck running smooth (less potential for hand jam) as
> to why this deck is doing well? What other vamps would you suggest in
> such a crypt?
Nah--it is just fast and simple. You use KS for every action. Deny,
Mind Tricks, and Confusion can get you up to +3 stealth. You can bleed
for 4 with Eyes of Chaos if you don't need the Confusion.
The crypt builds itself. Just go to Secret Library and search G3/4 dem
+. There are 12 guys with dem/DEM 5 cap and under. And you get, I
think 5x DEM without doubling anyone up.
-Peter
librarian
> On Sep 16, 12:10 pm, cthulukitty <jcrossnicker...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Wedge wrote:
>
>>>> 2) Bleed. The ** Assimite ** Black Hand bleed deck has alot of building before it can go.
>
>
>>> Key Vampires are the two Seraphs I like 3,3,2,2,2
>> Uhhh....which 2 Seraphs are you referring to, and what other vampires
>> are you suggesting doubling and tripling? A little less vagueness is
>> certainly desirable, unless you'd like to play Do A Thing.
>>
He's probably referring to 3xDjuha, 3xYazid, 2xReza, 2xJoe Boot Hill,
and 2xTariq (Adv).
Kind of a spendy crypt.
best -
chris
librarian
In fact, it's to your best interest to get the game down to 3 players as
fast as possible, hopefully not concentrating the other 2VP in 1 other
player's hands. At least I think so, my AUS decks don't seem to work so
well. Maybe I need to go back and try it again. Turning Concealed
Weapon into discipline-less was huge for this deck.
best -
chris
Peter D Bakija
> In fact, it's to your best interest to get the game down to 3 players as
> fast as possible, hopefully not concentrating the other 2VP in 1 other
> player's hands. At least I think so, my AUS decks don't seem to work so
> well. Maybe I need to go back and try it again. Turning Concealed
> Weapon into discipline-less was huge for this deck.
Oh, yeah, totally. Like letting someone get 2VPs if it means you get
set up and can then win the 3 player is gold for this kind of deck.
-Peter
Johann von Doom
> A little less vagueness is
> certainly desirable, unless you'd like to play Do A Thing.
I would like to! Are you going to the NAC?
John Eno
Johann von Doom
> He's probably referring to 3xDjuha, 3xYazid, 2xReza, 2xJoe Boot Hill,
> and 2xTariq (Adv).
Not unless he's cheating, he's not. Check the groupings on those guys.
John Eno
wedge
x3 Izhim abd Azrael, 9, pot CEL OBF QUI THA, Assamite, 5 Seraph, BH
x2 Nizzam al-Latif, 9, dem ANI CEL OBF QUI, Assamite, 5 BH
x3 Djuhah, The Bronze Bow, 7, aus cel pre OBF QUI, Assamite, 5 Seraph,
BH
x2 Joe `Boot` Hill, 7, for obf CEL QUI, Assamite, 4 BH
x2 Reza Fatir, The Dark Angel, 6, obf pro CEL QUI, Assamite, 4 BH
Spendy yes, but I have had them all in play. Usually only have three
in play, if two are seraphs its rocking
Matt
RoddPrime
I think weenie Potence and Animalism are too easy to build not to try
out (plus I think I actually have most of the cards lying around)....
probably same with weenie Auspex. Though I still have yet to decide
what direction to go with Auspex (guns or no guns, etc.). Side
thought: could a small/mid cap deck with celerity/guns be a contender
given Fleetness/Resist Earth's Grasp and all the additional strikes?
Dementation bleed again would be easy enough to build........ the only
cards I foresee being expensive in all three previous decks mentioned
are Deep Song, Eyes of Argus, Preternatural Strength (not necessary
either), and Target Vitals. Cheap and solid is a win win situation.
I guess I will just have to decide what vote deck to go for......Death
Star Cannon and Nos/Vote both seem appealing...... but, so do
Tremere....
To Peter (and anyone wanting to put in their 2 cents): You mention
"tier 1" when rating a deck. What general decks would you consider to
be a solid Tier 1? Further do you think any new decks have emerged in
the last year that are Tier 1? Or is there really anything that is new
or strong enough to be recently elevated to Tier 1?
Peter D Bakija
> I think weenie Potence and Animalism are too easy to build not to try
> out (plus I think I actually have most of the cards lying around)....
Oh, sure--if you haven't tried out weenie Pot rush, it is a good time,
and certainly shakes up a local environment. But if it runs into fight
back combat, or anyone with strong offense and reasonable combat
defense, it tends to fall over.
Ani Weenimalism is a bit more robust, as it has permacept from the
Raven Spies, and the combat tends to be reactive rather than pro-
active--you have a lot of Carrion Crows and Bats to hurt folks, but
when tends to keep you alive is the intercept wall and blocking stuff,
and the combat just wears folks down and makes then afraid of being
blocked. Having rush in there (easier with Deep Song now) means you
can preemptively kill off very stealthy folks, which is good, but
really, Ani Weenimalism works best 'cause it has good defense, and its
offense tends to be "I have lots of little guys".
> Side
> thought: could a small/mid cap deck with celerity/guns be a contender
> given Fleetness/Resist Earth's Grasp and all the additional strikes?
Oh, sure. Weenie CEL/guns works pretty well too. The main sticking
point is "how many guns and disguised weapons are in the deck". Too
few, and you spend a lot of time being useless. Too many, and you
spend a lot of time drawing more guns and disguiseds than you need.
Infernal Pursuit helps here, but then you also end up decking quickly.
> To Peter (and anyone wanting to put in their 2 cents): You mention
> "tier 1" when rating a deck. What general decks would you consider to
> be a solid Tier 1?
The ones that you can rely on to win games a lot. Standard Malk S+B,
Weenie DEM, Venture Law Firm. Most things with dominate and some
delivery system. I think Nos Breed Boon is probably Tier 1.
> Further do you think any new decks have emerged in
> the last year that are Tier 1? Or is there really anything that is new
> or strong enough to be recently elevated to Tier 1?
I dunno--maybe? Death Star Cannon is certainly good, but I'm still not
convinced that the Anarch angle is actually helping it. The Arihmanes
seem to have been doing well a lot lately, but I'm not sure what is
making that happen.
Decks like Ani Weenimalism (almost Tier 1), Gangrel weenie PRO vote
(not too far off of Tier 1, but not actually there) and weenie POT
(pretty far from Tier 1) are kinds of decks that can do really well,
but tend to rise and fall based on what you sit down next to--if there
are some reasonably common deck types or strategies at the table, your
whole game falls off the rails. The decks that are Tier 1 tend to be
unconcerned with what they are sitting next to or across from (this is
a vast generalization, so no one should get het up about it with
specifics)--they do what they are going to do, do so successfully most
of the time, and either it works or it doesn't, but not 'cause your
predator is playing deck X and you just can't get off the ground. For
example, weenie DEM tends to do very well regardless of what is at the
table. If your first predator is weenie POT rush (which isn't all that
likely, in the grand scheme), yeah, you are probably hosed. But other
than that, you are probably getting a minimum of 1VP per game, and are
more likely to win than not most of the time.
-Peter
RoddPrime
Would you consider any wall decks (Tzim, Toreador, Imbued) to be Tier
1? Also, do you think decks featuring main vamps such as Tariq Eats
the World, Stanislava, or Salout w/weenie Auspex to be top decks? From
what I have been able to tell the wall decks are decent, but Imbued
get too much hate, Toreador seem okay, and Tzim Wall/Combat while good
when it comes up relies a lot on a variety of cards to perform
smoothly. I have noticed that a deck that relies on something like
intercept, or wake+intercept, and a plethora of combat cards such as
Skin Trap, Horrid Form, etc., and bleed boosters such as Changeling
seems to get hand jammed all too often, but maybe it is just my
experience. Again, these decks weren't designed by me, but I think if
I made a Tzim deck I would probably focus it a lot more. The All Star
decks either seem to do well or are a big bust. However, that is
similar to a bleed deck doing it's thing. But, it seems even more
fragile if A) People at the table know what the deck does, B) Your
star get's Pentexed, Mind Raped, Sensory Deprivated, etc., or C) it
has too fast of a deck behind it. Despite those negatives I have seen
decks like Tariq and Salout do quite well as they could care less if
someone knows what it does. But, if I am playing a deck that goes down
if my main vamp does then it feels like I put too much into one vamp.
Thus I am in the middle.
Speaking of Anarchs....... from what I can tell in Death Star Cannon
the Fee Stakes help get votes and Alamut helps secure the vote lock.
The Anarch angle seems largely based on Revolutionary Council for the
big lunge. Beyond that Patsy and Anarch Salon seem to be the only
Anarch vote cards while CrimethInc. and Web of Knives rounds it off.
It seems like a solid enough deck with Fee Stakes being actions as
opposed to being a referendum. It actually seems to be a lot less
fragile than Daughters Vote that won in 2007 (Is this still a good
deck even?). What is it you would change (you mentioned taking the
Anarch angle out)?
The Lasombra
> Speaking of Anarchs....... from what I can tell in Death Star Cannon
> the Fee Stakes help get votes and Alamut helps secure the vote lock.
> The Anarch angle seems largely based on Revolutionary Council for the
> big lunge. Beyond that Patsy and Anarch Salon seem to be the only
> Anarch vote cards while CrimethInc. and Web of Knives rounds it off.
> It seems like a solid enough deck with Fee Stakes being actions as
> opposed to being a referendum.
DSC would be a lot faster if it simply left its minions non-Anarch,
bled the same, and used more Reckless Agitations. Yes, the one action
oust at 10+ pool is gone, but the turns and turns of wasted setup are
also gone, so your prey doesn't walk the table in front of you.
> It actually seems to be a lot less fragile than Daughters Vote that won in 2007
> (Is this still a good deck even?).
Angellore isn't that great, its just that Ben is that great of a
player. :P
(See also 30 TWDs, and 3 Continental Championships)
Breed boon is always good if you can pass the votes, and Conductor can
very frequently make that happen.
> What is it you would change (you mentioned taking the Anarch angle out)?
See my note above.
Assamite vote works with: Alamut, Amaravati, and lots of stealth for
bleeding to put counters on Alamut.
Jakob Sievers
> Tzim Wall/Combat while good when it comes up relies a lot on a
> variety of cards to perform smoothly. I have noticed that a deck that
> relies on something like intercept, or wake+intercept, and a plethora
> of combat cards such as Skin Trap, Horrid Form, etc., and bleed
> boosters such as Changeling seems to get hand jammed all too often,
> but maybe it is just my experience. Again, these decks weren't
> designed by me, but I think if I made a Tzim deck I would probably
> focus it a lot more.
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k5genconday1
The current version of this deck got 3GW10 at the recent ECQ Budapest
(47 players), making it first seed after prelims.
The problem is playing it like Stefan!
cheers,
-jakob
Izaak
>Would a Gangrel deck with Protean Stealth and Praxis cards not work?
>Are the methods of relying heavily on Praxis, etc. not worth the risk
>anymore? Just curious as I believe it could def. be a good deck or if
>needed could add some vamps with some titles to get the push going. If
>nothing else Cryptic Rider could help out, etc.
No, that works fine. As Peter pointed out,
Peter D Bakija
> Would you consider any wall decks (Tzim, Toreador, Imbued) to be Tier
> 1?
Maybe? I guess it comes down to what you mean by "wall". Like
generally speaking, wall decks are hard to win with as they have
difficulty getting more than 2VPs. There are plenty of ways to get
more than 2VPs with a wall kind of deck, but most of them make
everyone at the table mad at you (see: Smiling Jack). Weenie AUS is
Tier 1, but that is mostly due to the weenie aspect (I mean, also the
incredibly strong defense, but weenie goes a long way to make viable
offense). The Toreador can be very strong, but generally not so much
by being wall as by being robust and votey with some block ability.
The Imbued can be strong, but they generate a lot of table hate. The
Tzimisce can be very strong, but in the long term, most of the really
successful Tzimisce deck types have been War Ghoul powered.
> Speaking of Anarchs....... from what I can tell in Death Star Cannon
> the Fee Stakes help get votes and Alamut helps secure the vote lock.
> The Anarch angle seems largely based on Revolutionary Council for the
> big lunge.
Yep. Going Anarch lets you be Fee Stakey. But it also means you need a
bunch of guys of capacity 5+ to make it worth using the Fee Stakes.
And it gives you the Rev Council lunge, but I suspect that in the
history of Death Star Cannon decks, the Revolutionary Council has been
played when it mattered not actually that often.
> It actually seems to be a lot less
> fragile than Daughters Vote that won in 2007 (Is this still a good
> deck even?). What is it you would change (you mentioned taking the
> Anarch angle out)?
The Daughters deck is a good breed boon deck, but it is extra good
'cause it was Ben.
The Death Star Cannon deck I totally ripped off and took out all the
Anarch tech, and it is pretty effective--removing the Anarch tech and
Fee Stakes means you can go with a lot more small guys. You pass votes
occasionally (not many--con boon and KRC sometimes) with Alamut votes.
Mostly it is a weenie horde obf deck with the occasional bleed of 3
from Loss, some votes it can pass, and good pool gain and defense
options. I mean, I don't know if it is necessarily better than Death
Star Cannon, but I prefer it to the Anarch jank.
-Peter
Juggernaut1981
Weenie-Animalism would be my vote.
Tier of Souls, Rats, Cats, Bats, Ravens, Crows... Ecoterrorists,
Gather, Nos Kingdom, it's dirty and it works.
!Ven Walls can be brutal.
!Ven + Guns. Anima Gathering, Dom-bleed, flick, block... shoot shoot
shoot and For prevent. Toss in some anti-vote, wash/sudden for
Pentexes and you're good to go. .44 Magnums, Deagles, Deer Rifles if
you're worried about hand-to-hand... maybe the odd Ghoul Retainer to
really mix things up. Throw in a Day Op for the killing bleed.
Peter D Bakija
> !Ven Walls can be brutal.
> !Ven + Guns. Anima Gathering, Dom-bleed, flick, block... shoot shoot
> shoot and For prevent. Toss in some anti-vote, wash/sudden for
> Pentexes and you're good to go. .44 Magnums, Deagles, Deer Rifles if
> you're worried about hand-to-hand... maybe the odd Ghoul Retainer to
> really mix things up. Throw in a Day Op for the killing bleed.
Ah, yeah, true that--I saw a *lot* of these decks during the summer
tournament season (I think there were two of them in the US Nat
Finals)--you got AUS/FOR for defense and DOM for offense. A lot of
good resilience and ability to bounce and intercept stuff. If you have
some guns, you can hurt folks a lot; Sawed Off Shotgun is actually a
really good option for this kind of deck (as is, like, a .38 with a
Magazine and Scattershot if you feel like getting all those
Magazines)--if you get blocked, shoot for 3, prevent damage, and press
to end. You have trouble getting through specific actions, but with
Seduction and Bonding in the mix, you can have light stealth and block
denial, and then just surprise Dominate and /or tap tech (Anatch
Troublemaker and/or Misdirection) means you can oust successfully.
This is probably the deck that strikes me as the one that I didn't see
as good before, and recently realized was very solid (by seeing it in
action a lot). I don't know if anything new is responsible for this,
but it kind of came to everyone's conciousness recently as far as I
can tell.
-Peter
Drain
!Ventrue G3 and later crypts really kicked it into high gear. Not to
mention getting playing time in the hands of top players though I
guess the former led to the latter.
Drain
Peter D Bakija
> !Ventrue G3 and later crypts really kicked it into high gear. Not to
> mention getting playing time in the hands of top players though I
> guess the former led to the latter.
Ah, yeah, that certainly helped. Blackhorse Tanner and Owain "Mr.
Hunting Ground" Evans do show up in all these decks, I'm sure.
-Peter
Johann von Doom
> Ah, yeah, true that--I saw a *lot* of these decks during the summer
> tournament season (I think there were two of them in the US Nat
> Finals)
Heh! Mine wasn't a wall deck, though I was totally okay with lots of
people assuming it was during that tournament. :) After the one game I
played with him, Oscar correctly deduced that it was basically Vignes,
but with a different crypt and more options.
> good resilience and ability to bounce and intercept stuff. If you have
> some guns, you can hurt folks a lot;
Hugh's version, which is quite good, doesn't even bother with guns,
just relying on O'Grady's +1 strength and some Weighted Walking
Sticks.
> This is probably the deck that strikes me as the one that I didn't see
> as good before, and recently realized was very solid (by seeing it in
> action a lot). I don't know if anything new is responsible for this,
> but it kind of came to everyone's conciousness recently as far as I
> can tell.
Back in the bad ol' days of group 2 !Ventrue, I remember reading on
this newsgroup that someone had made a good but difficult-to-play !
Ventrue deck that blocked selectively, bided its time, and lunged for
the oust with Dominate (I think the subject of the thread was
something like "How can !Ventrue win?"). I had wanted to make such a
deck ever since, and once the very solid 3/4 midcap crypt was printed,
it seemed like a lot of other people did, too, because suddenly it was
showing up all over the place.
John Eno
RoddPrime
wrote:
Maybe a dumb question,.... but can someone explain what makes Edward
Vignes so good? I saw his text, but if it has to be directed at him
then how does that help beyond D actions at him such as rush,
stealing, etc.?
cthulukitty
> Maybe a dumb question,.... but can someone explain what makes Edward
> Vignes so good? I saw his text, but if it has to be directed at him
> then how does that help beyond D actions at him such as rush,
> stealing, etc.?
It's not a dumb question, but I think you're looking a little too hard
at Vignes's text for an answer. You should be looking at his
disciplines instead, and then looking at the disciplines on many of
the vampires he can govern down to. The ability is basically just
gravy, though it does make him very difficult to kill or mess with in
any way. Despite being named after a single minion, the Vignes deck is
far from a superstar concept. In many ways, it's much more like a
weenie deck.
Jesse
The Lasombra
>Maybe a dumb question,.... but can someone explain what makes Edward
>Vignes so good? I saw his text, but if it has to be directed at him
>then how does that help beyond D actions at him such as rush,
>stealing, etc.?
Ruben Feldman makes Edward Vignes so good.
Also, dominate is broken.
See also:
http://www.thelasombra.com/hall_of_fame.htm#rubenfeldman
104 player tournament winning deck
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k6eclcq
18 player TWD
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k7emeraldecq
98 player TWD
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k7ecday1
17 player TWD
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k8celestial1
31 player TWD
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k9nycqualifier
RoddPrime
and being fast as well as the seductions and daring the dawn... but,
what is the general way to play this deck? Is it like playing Malks
when you go forward every turn in most situations or is it more of a
thing where you wait while your prey continues to transfer and then
you make him feel safe and bleed for a bunch? Just curious though as
it seems it can be quite fast, but by the time you oust your first
prey your second prey knows what is going on. Thanks for the
explanations in advance.
The Lasombra
> How does one manage dominate without the stealth?
Lunge.
Put little pressure on your prey until you can take him out in one
turn.
> I know swarm tactics
> and being fast as well as the seductions and daring the dawn... but,
> what is the general way to play this deck?
To play a classic Feldman Vignes? Leave lots of minions untapped, let
your prey go forward hard and often, then pounce when they can't deal
with it.
> Is it like playing Malks when you go forward every turn in most situations
Not in my experiences with Ruben, no.
> or is it more of a
> thing where you wait while your prey continues to transfer and then
> you make him feel safe and bleed for a bunch?
More like this.
> Just curious though as it seems it can be quite fast, but by the time
> you oust your first prey your second prey knows what is going on. Thanks for the
> explanations in advance.
If you manage it correctly, in the first turn of your offense you oust
your first prey, then on your next turn you oust your next prey. You
want your prey going forward and putting their prey in your ousting
distance. Three VPs is plenty to win the game, five isn't necessary.
Peter D Bakija
It's mostly about just steadily wearing your prey down and doing
things like "I bleed for 1. No block? Ok, 3!" with Threats or
something. If you have some guns or Weighted Walking Sticks or
something, backed with fortitude, people will often not block bleeds
of 1, assuming that a bleed of 3 with a Govern is coming next.
Really though, such a deck is about a victory lunge, rather than
consistent big bleeds--you defend yourself and bleed for 1 a bunch.
Eventually, your prey is in lunge range, and then you tap him out or
Pentex Subversion or something, and bleed for 12 in a single turn with
4 minions.
-Peter