How about laying with a pet incubus on an altar???
SamIAm
enjoying the benefits of such a powerful pet. (Two level-ups so far,
among other things.)
I remember reading that you can exercise wisdom by chatting with a
priest while holding no money, so I tried it, but I suppose it must be
a coalligned priest. I was so angry, I summoned my incubus and
"chatted him up" right there on the altar! And there is no response,
not from lawful god nor priest! Well I'll be, now that's what I call
tolerance, heh.
L
Now that oughtta be worth a thundering from the lawful-aligned
possessor of the altar...
Except that I'm not sure that such deeds are considered to be performed
_on top of_ the altar. After all, there's nothing preventing demonic
fornication while at the bottom of a spike-lined pit...
Doug Freyburger
>
> >How about laying with a pet incubus on an altar???
>
> Now that oughtta be worth a thundering from the lawful-aligned
> possessor of the altar...
Sure, but would it be thundering applause? I guess that's where
the leveling up thing comes from. Our thundering laughter?
"The incubus seems to have enjoyed it more than you ..." Done
well, joining is a spiritual experience akin to prayer. Doesn't
look like done-well is an option in Nethack.
It only seems to be monotheist religions that have such hangups
and what with all of the Nethack pantheons having 3 dieties each
(and Moloch as the 4th) there don't seem to be any monotheist
religions in Nethack.
Displaced Avenger
Erm, you're talking about copulating with a *demon* here. I think most
religions tend to frown on that, and wouldn't view it as being akin to
prayer if done in the temple.
Incidentally, I'm not aware of Hinduism (the foremost polytheistic
religion extant today, I believe) encouraging even married couples to
"get friendly" in religious shrines, or even in public. Am I missing
something?
Sure, there are some cults (generally started by a guy who wants to get
more) that encourage free-wheeling enjoyment, but those tend to exist
on the fringes of religions, and probably shouldn't be viewed as an
example for most/all of the deities in NH.
Getting back to the OP: there should definitely be ramifications to
chatting up succubi/incubi in public. For temples, I'd say something
akin to same-race sacrifice would be fitting (chaotics doing this in
chaotic temples probably shouldn't have any problems), but chaotics
already have things pretty easy--they can get major demons safely out
of the way through same-race saccing, and the mysterious force doesn't
bother them anywhere near as much--is there any way to balance this?
Shops should anger the shopkeeper (regardless of your alignment: "Hey!
This isn't that kind of store!"), and the minetown guard should also
get upset, though there shouldn't be an impact on the tourist quest
(since that's why those demons are there). And perhaps the Oracle
should ZOT both participants?
Aside from the balance issue (making chaotics even more attractive an
option), I'd say this is an appropriate YANI...
-Displaced Avenger
sjde...@yahoo.com
> Incidentally, I'm not aware of Hinduism (the foremost polytheistic
> religion extant today, I believe)
I'm not an expert, but I thought at least the most prevalent sects
(e.g. Advaita Vedanta, Vaishnavite, Shaivite) of Hindusim were
monotheistic or monistic. Vishnu/Shiva are manifestations of Brahman.
I believe the Mimamsa sect was originally polytheistic but even that
changed long ago.
Doug Freyburger
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > It only seems to be monotheist religions that have such hangups
> > and what with all of the Nethack pantheons having 3 dieties each
> > (and Moloch as the 4th) there don't seem to be any monotheist
> > religions in Nethack.
>
> Erm, you're talking about copulating with a *demon* here. I think most
> religions tend to frown on that, and wouldn't view it as being akin to
> prayer if done in the temple.
There's a sliding scale among demons even within Nethack. Minor
ones like imps, regular ones like pit fiends and foocubi, major
ones with names. Seems to me viewing your 3 dieties as the
next step up from Beelzebub and friends isn't all that crazy in
Nethack terms. It fits how spirits work in various ancient religions.
Consider how many human-diety hybrid kids Zeus had in the
Greek myths. Similar stories abound in other mythologies. Most
religions aren't nearly as hostile to demons as a couple of very
popular monotheistic ones are.
> Incidentally, I'm not aware of Hinduism (the foremost polytheistic
> religion extant today, I believe) encouraging even married couples to
> "get friendly" in religious shrines, or even in public. Am I missing
> something?
It is common for Hindus and less common polytheists to
maintain a small shrine at home. Mine gets moved between
the home office and the master bedroom based on the
interior design inclinations of my wife. She being an
agnostic, she treats my shrine display as decor. Your point
about public shrines stands - I was exaggerating to the point
of the ridiculous. Even Zeus did his randy-work outside of
temples.
> Sure, there are some cults (generally started by a guy who wants to get
> more) that encourage free-wheeling enjoyment, but those tend to exist
> on the fringes of religions, and probably shouldn't be viewed as an
> example for most/all of the deities in NH.
Do any of the major art museums in your area have large
displays of Hindu art? Given the Hindu statuary I've seen in
a few major musuems, at least images aren't fringe.
> Shops should anger the shopkeeper (regardless of your alignment: "Hey!
> This isn't that kind of store!"), and the minetown guard should also
> get upset, though there shouldn't be an impact on the tourist quest
> (since that's why those demons are there). And perhaps the Oracle
> should ZOT both participants?
Excellent.
Thinking back to other shrines I've been to - Most Thai restaurants
points Chicago and west have a family shrine that appears to be
Buddhist but for the reason the ones I've been to points Buffalo and
east don't. Cavorting doesn't seem to be the business a restaurant
would want to draw so I'll go with angering any shopkeeper.
So if a delicatessen food shop has an altar, it should be assumed
to be Buddhist and all of the food in that shop would be vegitarian.
Thus increasing the chances that shop cans are spinach. Deep
fried spinach with the usual effects. ;^)
Doug Freyburger
Taoism or Shinto then. Plus certain sects within otherwise
agnostic Buddhism.
But given discussions I've had with Hindu friends at the office, I am
not clear they mean enough of the same thing for words like god and
diety for me to be able to figure out if it makes sense to call them
monotheist or polytheist. It's like they took the ambiguity of the
trinity, exposed it to plenty of radiation to increase the mutation
rate, fed it lots of Miracle Grow (couldn't use any better fertilizer
for
a religion), and cultivated more complex ambiguity for many
generations. I think I understand Shinto better when it comes to
polytheism. And this level of detail on a per-class basis isn't going
to be put in the code.
SamIAm
>Erm, you're talking about copulating with a *demon* here. I think most
>religions tend to frown on that, and wouldn't view it as being akin to
>prayer if done in the temple.
Remember, "demons", aren't necessarily evil creatures in most
religions, simply powerful, supernatural ones. It's the whole
Christian/New Testament/Book of Revelations/Lake of Fire set that
(mis?)represents demons as *necessarily* evil.
>Incidentally, I'm not aware of Hinduism (the foremost polytheistic
>religion extant today, I believe) encouraging even married couples to
>"get friendly" in religious shrines, or even in public. Am I missing
>something?
Don't forget the Kama Sutra, an explicitly religious text devoted to
sexuality. The Song of Solomon in the Old Testament/Torah is
particularly sexual as well. ( But sure, not in public.)
>Getting back to the OP: there should definitely be ramifications to
>chatting up succubi/incubi in public. For temples, I'd say something
>akin to same-race sacrifice would be fitting (chaotics doing this in
>chaotic temples probably shouldn't have any problems), but chaotics
>already have things pretty easy--they can get major demons safely out
>of the way through same-race saccing, and the mysterious force doesn't
>bother them anywhere near as much--is there any way to balance this?
>Shops should anger the shopkeeper (regardless of your alignment: "Hey!
>This isn't that kind of store!"), and the minetown guard should also
>get upset, though there shouldn't be an impact on the tourist quest
>(since that's why those demons are there). And perhaps the Oracle
>should ZOT both participants?
>
>Aside from the balance issue (making chaotics even more attractive an
>option), I'd say this is an appropriate YANI...
>
>-Displaced Avenger
Anyway, yes, I was actually trying to raise a ruckus there, exactly! I
mean, in the altar square, right next to the priest?! I expecetd
something. So thanks for the vote for YANI, I thought there would
have been some response too.
It could be fun, Tourists could have a "sex tourism" context,
Monks/Priests could have tests of celibacy, etc etc.
Displaced Avenger
> Displaced Avenger wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >
> > > It only seems to be monotheist religions that have such hangups
> > > and what with all of the Nethack pantheons having 3 dieties each
> > > (and Moloch as the 4th) there don't seem to be any monotheist
> > > religions in Nethack.
> >
> > Erm, you're talking about copulating with a *demon* here. I think most
> > religions tend to frown on that, and wouldn't view it as being akin to
> > prayer if done in the temple.
>
> There's a sliding scale among demons even within Nethack. Minor
> ones like imps, regular ones like pit fiends and foocubi, major
> ones with names. Seems to me viewing your 3 dieties as the
> next step up from Beelzebub and friends isn't all that crazy in
> Nethack terms. It fits how spirits work in various ancient religions.
In Nethack terms? Imps are i, demons (regular and named) are &. Imps
aren't demons. Angels (presumably one step below the gods themselves)
are A, and are therefore also not demonic. If anything, I'd argue that
NH is far more likely to classify the gods (other than Moloch) as A
than &.
> Consider how many human-diety hybrid kids Zeus had in the
> Greek myths. Similar stories abound in other mythologies. Most
> religions aren't nearly as hostile to demons as a couple of very
> popular monotheistic ones are.
Huh? Are you saying Zeus was a demon?
> > Incidentally, I'm not aware of Hinduism (the foremost polytheistic
> > religion extant today, I believe) encouraging even married couples to
> > "get friendly" in religious shrines, or even in public. Am I missing
> > something?
>
> It is common for Hindus and less common polytheists to
> maintain a small shrine at home. Mine gets moved between
> the home office and the master bedroom based on the
> interior design inclinations of my wife. She being an
> agnostic, she treats my shrine display as decor. Your point
> about public shrines stands - I was exaggerating to the point
> of the ridiculous. Even Zeus did his randy-work outside of
> temples.
Fair enough. But can we agree that any altar with an attendant priest,
which any random @ is free to use, is not a private shrine? Thus, most
of this discussion is unrelated to the YANI, and likely to start some
sort of religious war. Nethack's temples are clearly public shrines;
unattended altars somewhat less clearly, but since they're nowhere near
anyone's house, it seems safe to declare them public shrines as well.
And, as you agreed, most religions frown on "performing" in public
shrines, so there ought to be ramifications in Nethack, right?
> > Sure, there are some cults (generally started by a guy who wants to get
> > more) that encourage free-wheeling enjoyment, but those tend to exist
> > on the fringes of religions, and probably shouldn't be viewed as an
> > example for most/all of the deities in NH.
>
> Do any of the major art museums in your area have large
> displays of Hindu art? Given the Hindu statuary I've seen in
> a few major musuems, at least images aren't fringe.
Actually, I live in the middle of nowhere--I'd have to drive for at
least an hour and a half to get to a major art museum. But that aside,
western statuary (and even religious artwork) frequently includes
nudity; this doesn't mean western religions advocate public nudity.
I've never heard of orgies at any religious event other than those held
by fringe cults, wiccans, pagans, etc.; the major organized religions
don't seem to swing that way.
> > Shops should anger the shopkeeper (regardless of your alignment: "Hey!
> > This isn't that kind of store!"), and the minetown guard should also
> > get upset, though there shouldn't be an impact on the tourist quest
> > (since that's why those demons are there). And perhaps the Oracle
> > should ZOT both participants?
>
> Excellent.
>
> Thinking back to other shrines I've been to - Most Thai restaurants
> points Chicago and west have a family shrine that appears to be
> Buddhist but for the reason the ones I've been to points Buffalo and
> east don't. Cavorting doesn't seem to be the business a restaurant
> would want to draw so I'll go with angering any shopkeeper.
>
> So if a delicatessen food shop has an altar, it should be assumed
> to be Buddhist and all of the food in that shop would be vegitarian.
> Thus increasing the chances that shop cans are spinach. Deep
> fried spinach with the usual effects. ;^)
Heh. Of course, I don't believe it's possible to have an altar in a
shop, but still...:-)
-Displaced Avenger
Doug Freyburger
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > There's a sliding scale among demons even within Nethack. Minor
> > ones like imps, regular ones like pit fiends and foocubi, major
> > ones with names. Seems to me viewing your 3 dieties as the
> > next step up from Beelzebub and friends isn't all that crazy in
> > Nethack terms. It fits how spirits work in various ancient religions.
>
> In Nethack terms? Imps are i, demons (regular and named) are &. Imps
> aren't demons. Angels (presumably one step below the gods themselves)
> are A, and are therefore also not demonic.
Note that i are called "minor demons" in support of my use of a
sort of sliding scale. A are depicted as simlar to & but far more
often friendly. So they are as demonic as i's.
> If anything, I'd argue that
> NH is far more likely to classify the gods (other than Moloch) as A
> than &.
Agreed.
> > Consider how many human-diety hybrid kids Zeus had in the
> > Greek myths. Similar stories abound in other mythologies. Most
> > religions aren't nearly as hostile to demons as a couple of very
> > popular monotheistic ones are.
>
> Huh? Are you saying Zeus was a demon?
In Nethack terms some other letter but yes they end up a part of
a spectrum that goes i, &, A then something without a letter.
> But can we agree that any altar with an attendant priest,
> which any random @ is free to use, is not a private shrine?
Agreed.
> Thus, most
> of this discussion is unrelated to the YANI, and likely to start some
> sort of religious war.
Note that doing so violates atheist conduct. Chortle.
> > Do any of the major art museums in your area have large
> > displays of Hindu art? Given the Hindu statuary I've seen in
> > a few major musuems, at least images aren't fringe.
>
> Actually, I live in the middle of nowhere--I'd have to drive for at
> least an hour and a half to get to a major art museum. But that aside,
> western statuary (and even religious artwork) frequently includes
> nudity; this doesn't mean western religions advocate public nudity.
So you never have seen Hindu sacred statuary in a major
museum then. Check. While the amount of clothing varies
by statue, so does the amount of penetration. Not the same
thing as discussing nudity. Some have labels like "Happy
couple" others are part of a larger pattern in the decorative
carvings and not commented upon. Very much not what a
European would expect in sacred statuary.
> I've never heard of orgies at any religious event other than those held
> by fringe cults, wiccans, pagans, etc.; the major organized religions
> don't seem to swing that way.
Haing been happily married to an agnostic for years the
time for me to reply "I've been to plenty of pagan and heathen
events and never saw an orgy before, which ones have I been
missing?" is in the past. Guess I'll need to settle for the
regular mead brewing contest. Fringe, sure I'm well aware
that I'm fringe. It's why I've been citing the practices of
non-fringe kin like Hindu and Shinto.
> > Thinking back to other shrines I've been to - Most Thai restaurants
> > points Chicago and west have a family shrine that appears to be
> > Buddhist but for the reason the ones I've been to points Buffalo and
> > east don't. Cavorting doesn't seem to be the business a restaurant
> > would want to draw so I'll go with angering any shopkeeper.
I have no idea why Thais in the eastern US don't have family
shrines in their businesses but ones in the western US do.
I find the little display to be a very classy understated sign
of devotion rather like a Christian wearing a lapel pin cross.
> > So if a delicatessen food shop has an altar, it should be assumed
> > to be Buddhist and all of the food in that shop would be vegitarian.
> > Thus increasing the chances that shop cans are spinach. Deep
> > fried spinach with the usual effects. ;^)
>
> Heh. Of course, I don't believe it's possible to have an altar in a
> shop, but still...:-)
>
> -Displaced Avenger
If a player character gets displaced, that must be *some* pet!
Displaced Avenger
> Displaced Avenger wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >
> > > There's a sliding scale among demons even within Nethack. Minor
> > > ones like imps, regular ones like pit fiends and foocubi, major
> > > ones with names. Seems to me viewing your 3 dieties as the
> > > next step up from Beelzebub and friends isn't all that crazy in
> > > Nethack terms. It fits how spirits work in various ancient religions.
> >
> > In Nethack terms? Imps are i, demons (regular and named) are &. Imps
> > aren't demons. Angels (presumably one step below the gods themselves)
> > are A, and are therefore also not demonic.
>
> Note that i are called "minor demons" in support of my use of a
> sort of sliding scale. A are depicted as simlar to & but far more
> often friendly. So they are as demonic as i's.
Er, how are A similar to &? A can't be summoned (except by summon
nasties), while & can (kicking sinks, quaffing fountains, same-race
sacrifice); I don't believe A can appear in Gehennom, while most (but
not all) & only appear there; there are no named A's...I'm sorry, but
what similarities do & and A share that other monsters don't?
> > > Do any of the major art museums in your area have large
> > > displays of Hindu art? Given the Hindu statuary I've seen in
> > > a few major musuems, at least images aren't fringe.
> >
> > Actually, I live in the middle of nowhere--I'd have to drive for at
> > least an hour and a half to get to a major art museum. But that aside,
> > western statuary (and even religious artwork) frequently includes
> > nudity; this doesn't mean western religions advocate public nudity.
>
> So you never have seen Hindu sacred statuary in a major
> museum then. Check. While the amount of clothing varies
> by statue, so does the amount of penetration. Not the same
> thing as discussing nudity. Some have labels like "Happy
> couple" others are part of a larger pattern in the decorative
> carvings and not commented upon. Very much not what a
> European would expect in sacred statuary.
True. Westerners accept nudity, but generally not penetration; having
never seen the sorts of statues you describe, I'll take your word that
they exist. Still doesn't show that any major religion
allows/encourages coupling in public religious shrines...
> > I've never heard of orgies at any religious event other than those held
> > by fringe cults, wiccans, pagans, etc.; the major organized religions
> > don't seem to swing that way.
>
> Haing been happily married to an agnostic for years the
> time for me to reply "I've been to plenty of pagan and heathen
> events and never saw an orgy before, which ones have I been
> missing?" is in the past. Guess I'll need to settle for the
> regular mead brewing contest. Fringe, sure I'm well aware
> that I'm fringe. It's why I've been citing the practices of
> non-fringe kin like Hindu and Shinto.
Ok, so I was going on stereotypes. I've heard of plenty of fringe
cults that have encouraged orgies, but haven't had personal experience
with any religious service involving them (of any sort). But that only
serves to reinforce my point--major religions don't like copulation in
public religious areas.
> > -Displaced Avenger
>
> If a player character gets displaced, that must be *some* pet!
Heh--believe it or not, that hadn't occured to me; the 'nym is from my
college days, when I was playing around with an anagram program. This
was one of the first things that popped up when I put in my full name.
Of course, I also really enjoy the effects of a certain cloak in NH, so
I guess it's appropriate. :-)
-Displaced Avenger