pet care

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bugeyemonster

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Aug 3, 2009, 3:52:13 PM8/3/09
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Is it possible to get your pet to stay close by? I loose them because
they wander off. Can I feed my pet?
Anyone have a link to a document on Pet Care?

RjY

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Aug 3, 2009, 4:08:02 PM8/3/09
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bugeyemonster posted:

>Is it possible to get your pet to stay close by? I loose them because
>they wander off.

Yes. Using a magic whistle is the best way. Other than that, if your pet
is a cat or dog, I believe it will stay closer to you if you have tripe
in your open inventory.

>Can I feed my pet?

Usually yes, but it depends on what kind of pet it is. Most will eat
corpses. Some only eat vegetation. Some do not eat at all.

>Anyone have a link to a document on Pet Care?

http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~eva/nethack/spoilerlist.html lists
several in the section "Spoilers About Pets". Hopefully one or more may
be of use to you.

--
http://rjy.org.uk/

Janis Papanagnou

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Aug 3, 2009, 4:40:46 PM8/3/09
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bugeyemonster wrote:
> Is it possible to get your pet to stay close by?

Use a leash, or apply a magic whistle (or a blessed
eucalyptus leaf in case you've got one).

Janis

Doug Freyburger

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Aug 3, 2009, 5:04:06 PM8/3/09
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bugeyemonster <brady.maxw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is it possible to get your pet to stay close by?

A leash will keep them very close. Carrying a treat will keep
them motivated to follow you so it's second best. A regular
whistle will cause a lost pet to move towards you, though in
a complex level that might not work. With a magic whistle it
does not matter how complex the level is.

Since pets want to follow you I think you are the one running
away from your pet not the other way around. Move back
into line of site with your pet and move back and forth. Your
pet will see you and follow you with no other tricks than
knowing how to do this.

But pets are very much like the dogs in the movie "Up".
Squirrel! And off they go chasing whatever monster they saw
or heard. Go back and retrieve those ADD/ADHD pets.

> I loose them because they wander off.

This is likely to be an inaccurate conclusion. Pets do not get
into combat likely to kill them. The few exceptions are the
most interesting monsters. Otherwise a pet near me is more
likely to be put into combat by me and die sooner to one of
those few exceptions (note to self, don't keep a dog on a
leash on a level with a watch captain ...). Pets die to traps
about equally near or distant.

> Can I feed my pet?

Yes and that's the main contributor to longer pet life in my
experience. On their own pets will only attack monsters at
1 level higher than them on down. Pets withdraw from combat
when injured. This adds up that carnivorous pets can clean
out a level and starve yet you still have some stronger monsters
you might be able to take out. Also herbivore pets don't seem
to find enough plants in the dungeon.

Throw the food to your pet.

Janis Papanagnou

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Aug 3, 2009, 5:19:42 PM8/3/09
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Doug Freyburger wrote:
> bugeyemonster <brady.maxw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Is it possible to get your pet to stay close by?
>
> [...]

>
> Since pets want to follow you I think you are the one running
> away from your pet not the other way around. Move back
> into line of site with your pet and move back and forth. Your
> pet will see you and follow you with no other tricks than
> knowing how to do this.

(Assuming you mean line of sight.) I've got the impression that
line of sight is not the effective factor. If you observe your
pet with some sort of ESP you'll see (in a layout like this...)

|....d....|
+-------.-+
#
#######
#
+-.-------+
|.y..@..x.|

that the pet tries to reduce (dx,dy) distance between you and it;
so to let him find the entry to the hallway it is advantageous to
move to place x, first. (This is just from thorough observation,
I haven't inspected the code.)

> [...]


>
> Yes and that's the main contributor to longer pet life in my
> experience. On their own pets will only attack monsters at
> 1 level higher than them on down.

Hmm.. - I thought it was up to three levels difference beyond their
own level.

Janis

Matt Weiner

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Aug 3, 2009, 7:32:05 PM8/3/09
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On Aug 3, 4:08 pm, RjY <R...@sp.am> wrote:
> bugeyemonster posted:

> >Can I feed my pet?
>
> Usually yes, but it depends on what kind of pet it is. Most will eat
> corpses. Some only eat vegetation. Some do not eat at all.
>
> >Anyone have a link to a document on Pet Care?
>
> http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~eva/nethack/spoilerlist.html lists
> several in the section "Spoilers About Pets". Hopefully one or more may
> be of use to you.
>
> --http://rjy.org.uk/

I find this one particularly helpful for feeding pets:
http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~eva/nethack/pets2.html

Another point about this is that certain items are much
more valuable as food to your pet than to you. If you have
a herbivorous pet (most likely a horse), then an apple
will keep it fed for a fairly long time, but it won't give
you much nutrition. So save any fruit you have for
herbivorous pets where applicable. As Doug pointed
out, they have trouble staying fed otherwise.

Does anyone know whether pet nutrition works like pet
experience gain -- that is, does eating always give the
pet the same amount of nutrition, regardless of what is
eaten?

James Of Tucson

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Aug 4, 2009, 1:35:49 AM8/4/09
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Here is a spoily, but very important piece of information:

If your pet drops an item next to you, and on the next turn, you throw
tripe to him, thenceforth, the pet will be much more likely to drop
stuff at your feet.

This is among the few things I figured out myself and not from
spoilers.

APLer

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Aug 4, 2009, 6:51:55 AM8/4/09
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bugeyemonster <brady....@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1b7d42f7-3b26-42c4...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com:

> Is it possible to get your pet to stay close by? I loose them because
> they wander off. Can I feed my pet?
> Anyone have a link to a document on Pet Care?

The only problem I've had is when the pet is in another Room - or in
certain variations of corridor where the path to you isn't completely in
one compass direction. To clarify, in Janis'illustration, if the pet is at
"d" and you are at "x", it will take forever for the pet to get to you,
however if you move to the branch in the corridor just below the entrance,
wait for the pet to be beside you, and then switch places with him, you
can "single square" him to the room below. Moving only when the pet is
*not* in a square adjacent to you. In these cases, going to beside where
the pet is and blocking his way back until he moves away from you toward
the wanted room is the only way without a magic whistle. This happens
fairly often, and isn't related to hunger, tameness or traps. It seems to
just be a random artifact.

Doug Freyburger

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Aug 4, 2009, 11:54:44 AM8/4/09
to
Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
> > bugeyemonster <brady.maxw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Is it possible to get your pet to stay close by?
>
> > Since pets want to follow you I think you are the one running
> > away from your pet not the other way around.  Move back
> > into line of site with your pet and move back and forth.  Your
> > pet will see you and follow you with no other tricks than
> > knowing how to do this.
>
> (Assuming you mean line of sight.) I've got the impression that
> line of sight is not the effective factor.

I didn't mean line of sight but I'm not certain exactly what I
did mean. I think it's some combination of line of sight and
line of hearing - Pets track monsters by sound better than
our characters can. Except I might be totally wrong when I
attribute pet behavior to sound.

> If you observe your
> pet with some sort of ESP you'll see (in a layout like this...)
>
>     |....d....|
>     +-------.-+
>             #
>       #######
>       #
>     +-.-------+
>     |.y..@..x.|
>
> that the pet tries to reduce (dx,dy) distance between you and it;
> so to let him find the entry to the hallway it is advantageous to
> move to place x, first. (This is just from thorough observation,
> I haven't inspected the code.)

I thought it was by sound. It might be infravision?

> > Yes and that's the main contributor to longer pet life in my
> > experience.  On their own pets will only attack monsters at
> > 1 level higher than them on down.
>
> Hmm.. - I thought it was up to three levels difference beyond their
> own level.

Different parts of the code use different numbers for the levels,
so the word is ambiguous.

Pets will attack monsters slightly more powerful than they are.
Pets will retreat from combat when injured. Pets heal.
Monsters hit back but stop combat as soon as a pet retreats.
If a pet heals faster than a monster, a pet can end up taking
out a monster at the top of their combat willingness.

Some monsters hit much harder than their depth. If a pet
attacks a purple worm and the purple worm responds by a
swallow attack that succeeds, goodbye pet. If a pet attacks
a watch captain based on the captain's unarmed strength, the
damage caused by the captain's long sword or silver saber
may be enough to kill the pet before it can retreat and heal.
I've lost a lot of dogs to watch captains on the way back up
from mines end. Priests hit with their mace plus other attacks
much harder than the unarmed strength used to judge combat
willingness and I've lost some war horses to priests.

James Kanze

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Aug 4, 2009, 5:35:38 PM8/4/09
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On Aug 3, 10:08 pm, RjY <R...@sp.am> wrote:
> bugeyemonster posted:

> >Is it possible to get your pet to stay close by? I loose them
> >because they wander off.
>
> Yes. Using a magic whistle is the best way. Other than that,
> if your pet is a cat or dog, I believe it will stay closer to
> you if you have tripe in your open inventory.

And if it's a pony or horse, if you have apples or carrots.

Then there are leashes, and even ordinary whistles can help
some. And patience.

> >Can I feed my pet?

> Usually yes, but it depends on what kind of pet it is. Most
> will eat corpses. Some only eat vegetation. Some do not eat at
> all.

All that eat will accept human food if they're hungry enough.

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:james...@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34

James Kanze

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Aug 4, 2009, 5:52:43 PM8/4/09
to
On Aug 3, 11:04 pm, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> bugeyemonster <brady.maxw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Is it possible to get your pet to stay close by?

> A leash will keep them very close. Carrying a treat will keep
> them motivated to follow you so it's second best. A regular
> whistle will cause a lost pet to move towards you, though in a
> complex level that might not work. With a magic whistle it
> does not matter how complex the level is.

One funny thing about leashes---they seem to work through walls.
If you have something like:

| |
.###.
| |
.###.
| |

And you take the upper passage, with your leashed pet behind
you, it's not rare to find him waiting for you when you arrive,
having taken the other passage.

> Since pets want to follow you I think you are the one running
> away from your pet not the other way around. Move back into
> line of site with your pet and move back and forth. Your pet
> will see you and follow you with no other tricks than knowing
> how to do this.

I don't think it's line of sight. I think it's simply distance.
If the pet's nearby, the odds of it moving closer are higher
(but never 1).

[...]


> This is likely to be an inaccurate conclusion. Pets do not
> get into combat likely to kill them. The few exceptions are
> the most interesting monsters.

Like just about anything that is wielding a weapon. The pet
judges whether the opponent is weak enough based on the
opponent's base something, not taking weapons into account. Two
frequent early pet killers: the minetown watch captain (with his
sabre or long sword), and dwarves with mattocks. And also
anything which can use poison---pets do not have poison
resistance. (Later, of course... I've lost a pet Titan to a
black dragon who was attacking me. I had reflection, so I
wasn't worried. But the attack missed, and my pet was just
behind me. Similar story with some strong pet in the castle,
and a guard with a wand of death.)

> Otherwise a pet near me is more likely to be put into combat
> by me and die sooner to one of those few exceptions (note to
> self, don't keep a dog on a leash on a level with a watch
> captain ...).

Note to self: keep the dog on a leash, and stay away from the
watch captain. I've lost at least one pet while I was busy
buying protection---it strayed, found the watch captain (I
suppose) and that was it.

Matt Weiner

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Aug 4, 2009, 8:25:50 PM8/4/09
to

> > This is likely to be an inaccurate conclusion.  Pets do not
> > get into combat likely to kill them.  The few exceptions are
> > the most interesting monsters.
>
> Like just about anything that is wielding a weapon.  The pet
> judges whether the opponent is weak enough based on the
> opponent's base something, not taking weapons into account.  Two
> frequent early pet killers: the minetown watch captain (with his
> sabre or long sword), and dwarves with mattocks.  And also
> anything which can use poison---pets do not have poison
> resistance.  (Later, of course... I've lost a pet Titan to a
> black dragon who was attacking me.  I had reflection, so I
> wasn't worried.  But the attack missed, and my pet was just
> behind me.  Similar story with some strong pet in the castle,
> and a guard with a wand of death.)
>
Things with passive attacks are also dangerous, I think -- the
player is supposed to know (or quickly learn) not to walk up
to them and bash them, but pets don't know. Though I can't
say for sure that I've ever lost a pet to a passive attack. I have
had a pet try to munch on a floating eye in the least
convenient square in Sokoban; but pets won't actually get
killed while helpless, since once they're frozen they don't
attack anything and nothing attacks them.

A converse to this is that pets with passive attacks seem to
be pretty fearsome. My last game I had a pet fire vortex
and fire elemental for a while, and they took out shopkeepers
incredibly quickly, because when the shopkeepers fought back
they'd get toasted for 10d4 or so fire damage. In fact,
sometimes too quickly to be convenient -- I didn't have enough
time to reach the stuff I wanted price-IDed. They still wouldn't
attack everything they could beat, though. Maybe that's one
use for a ring of conflict, just so long as you stay far enough
away that the firefoo attacks the lich instead of attacking you.

Son of a Sea Cook

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Aug 5, 2009, 1:11:39 AM8/5/09
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Whether I give food or not to my cat while at the shop, he already
loves me, so I can usually get most of what is in a shop without any prep
at all, saving several moves of "prep time".

Chaos can be your friend at times.

Ask me if I still believe that on 12/21/2012, if you can, that is. :-]

Doug Freyburger

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Aug 5, 2009, 11:27:22 AM8/5/09
to
James Kanze <james.ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > A leash will keep them very close ...

>
> One funny thing about leashes---they seem to work through walls.
> If you have something like:
>
>     |   |
>     .###.
>     |   |
>     .###.
>     |   |
>
> And you take the upper passage, with your leashed pet behind
> you, it's not rare to find him waiting for you when you arrive,
> having taken the other passage.

If I read that right the leash passed through a wall.

> > Since pets want to follow you I think you are the one running
> > away from your pet not the other way around.  Move back into
> > line of site with your pet and move back and forth.  Your pet
> > will see you and follow you with no other tricks than knowing
> > how to do this.
>
> I don't think it's line of sight.  I think it's simply distance.

I would have to read the pet code carefully to figure it out. I
thought it was hearing but pets follow my characters even
after I have stealth plus invisible to others. It must be
simply distance. Thanks!

> If the pet's nearby, the odds of it moving closer are higher
> (but never 1).

With a little extra patience pets come to you. Thus folks
who lose pets are folks in a hurry. Consider a common bit
of advice from serial ascenders - Type slowly but play fast.
Yet serial ascenders don't lose their pets until they decide
to do so.

> > This is likely to be an inaccurate conclusion.  Pets do not
> > get into combat likely to kill them.  The few exceptions are
> > the most interesting monsters.
>
> Like just about anything that is wielding a weapon.  The pet
> judges whether the opponent is weak enough based on the
> opponent's base something, not taking weapons into account.  Two
> frequent early pet killers: the minetown watch captain (with his
> sabre or long sword), and dwarves with mattocks.

Armor also effects the outcome but less directly. Pets attack,
and then retreat to heal when they get to half (?) of their max
hit points. Pets seem to heal faster than most monsters. But
a monster wearing armor takes less damage. The cycle of
attack, retreat, heal, resume attack will end up with an armored
monster lasting more cycles. Taking less damage ends up
similar of effect to healing faster.

> > Otherwise a pet near me is more likely to be put into combat
> > by me and die sooner to one of those few exceptions (note to
> > self, don't keep a dog on a leash on a level with a watch
> > captain ...).
>
> Note to self: keep the dog on a leash, and stay away from the
> watch captain.  I've lost at least one pet while I was busy
> buying protection---it strayed, found the watch captain (I
> suppose) and that was it.

I have also lost pets who attacked priests on the way back up
from the mines. Priests have a mace which is a poor weapon
but still more than the pet considers. Priests have a robe which
is poor armor but still more than the pet considers. Priests stay
in a shrine with a single door so the pet is less likely to leave
while healing. Because of this combination a pet who can kill
a shopkeeper can die when facing a priest.

tilmi...@googlemail.com

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Aug 5, 2009, 11:40:16 AM8/5/09
to
Slightly spoily response. "How to make your pet follow", in order of
importance:

* magic whistle, leash
* Keep pet tameness up. (Know what tameness and apport are
respectively)
* carry pet treats in open inventory (and know what is a treat)
* learn to lure your pet:
* - It will tend to run to you in its spare time if it can see you
(line of sight, not invisible)
* - stand in the direction you want your pet to go, regardless of
walls etc
* - you pet will place higher priority on keeping up with you if you
are moving, even if back and forth

Janis Papanagnou

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Aug 6, 2009, 10:11:13 AM8/6/09
to
Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> I didn't mean line of sight but I'm not certain exactly what I
> did mean. I think it's some combination of line of sight and
> line of hearing - Pets track monsters by sound better than
> our characters can. Except I might be totally wrong when I
> attribute pet behavior to sound.

Yes, I'm quite sure sound has not the least to do with it.

>> If you observe your
>> pet with some sort of ESP you'll see (in a layout like this...)
>>
>> |....d....|
>> +-------.-+
>> #
>> #######
>> #
>> +-.-------+
>> |.y..@..x.|
>>
>> that the pet tries to reduce (dx,dy) distance between you and it;
>> so to let him find the entry to the hallway it is advantageous to
>> move to place x, first. (This is just from thorough observation,
>> I haven't inspected the code.)
>
> I thought it was by sound. It might be infravision?

No, certeinly not. Pet behaviour in another typical dungeon layout
may make it yet more apparent that it's just a try to reduce (dx,dy)
distance...

+----------+ +------+
|..........| |......|
|.........d| |......|
|..........| |.@....|
+-.--------+ +-.----+
#############################################

The pet is "trapped" in the right half of the room because the random
part of the pet movement is too small compared to the primary factor,
the distance reduction. The pet is reluctant to increase the distance
by the necessary amount to reach the door.

>>> Yes and that's the main contributor to longer pet life in my
>>> experience. On their own pets will only attack monsters at
>>> 1 level higher than them on down.
>> Hmm.. - I thought it was up to three levels difference beyond their
>> own level.
>
> Different parts of the code use different numbers for the levels,
> so the word is ambiguous.

I was aiming at the XL of pet versus XL of monster to be attacked; the
numbers that you see when applying a stethoscope. Without conflict (or
other effects like a confused pet, etc.) a pet of, say, XL:10 will not
attack a monster beyond XL:13. This is what I meant. Therefore if you
want your pet purple worm attack level 25+ monsters, like major demons
or so, it's good you let your purple worm pet clear all those wraith
populated morgues (since, as opposed to the player, the worm will get
one experience level per swallowed wraith guaranteed).

Janis

Janis Papanagnou

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Aug 6, 2009, 10:18:45 AM8/6/09
to
Son of a Sea Cook wrote:
>
> Ask me if I still believe that on 12/21/2012, if you can, that is. :-]

"12/21/2012" - does that number indicate an extreemly very wide hip,
a black pudding maybe (or just the non-standard US date format)? :-p

Janis

Ray

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Aug 6, 2009, 12:23:35 PM8/6/09
to
Janis Papanagnou wrote:

The Maya people developed one of the most advanced and accurate
calendars we have ever found any civilization using. It measures
not just the years and days, but also such features as the
precession of the earth's axis (a 25800-year cycle) and relative
orbits of other planets, and it does it correctly. This is an
astonishing achievement for people who hadn't yet developed
spaceflight, let alone people who didn't even have electronic
computers and atomic clocks.

But unlike all the cruder and less accurate calendars in the
world (including the one we use), the Maya calendar does not
endlessly cycle. It has a definite end, a particular date on
which the world is finished and there is no more time in the
universe.

On this date, according to Maya belief, the "Road to Xibalba"
opens in the sky, and our world ceases to exist, joined forever
with other worlds (other universes? hard to say exactly what
the translations mean) and unknowable fates.

That date, on our calendar, is December 21 2012. It's enjoying
some popularity with mystics and millennialists - people whose
world didn't meet its expected doom with the end of 1999, 2000,
and 2001.

Some of the surviving Maya people, in Mexico, are these days
causing a certain amount of ethnic unrest and local politics
by refusing contracts, obligations, legislation, and credit
that has anything to do with transactions or actions beyond
that date. None of them want to owe anybody anything, or be
owed anything by anybody, when the end of time arrives.

Perhaps they are wrong. Regardless, the date is interesting.

Bear


Kent Paul Dolan

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Aug 6, 2009, 12:44:14 PM8/6/09
to

I'm modestly sure that's on/after the date the Mayan
calendar finishes its 12th and as far as is known
final cycle. Superstitious people equate that to the
end of the universe, but then superstitious people
have been predicting the end of the universe every
20 years or so for as long as history records.

xanthian.

TheJoker

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Aug 6, 2009, 9:40:28 PM8/6/09
to

First off, dipshit, there is no "standard". There are SEVERAL date
formats used around the world, none of which and at the same time all of
which are "standard" and ANY adult should have enough brains to decipher
any format immediately. Particualrly in today's information rich
society. You pussy. Step up to the bar and LEARN something, and stop
declaring everything outside your little geographical shitspot
non-standard. There. That's out of the way. I have met your retarded
uncivil crack with one of my own, so do not get bent out of shape. Back
to business.

Secondly, of course it is a date. It is a very important date.

If that date comes to pass, then a whole lot of people will realize
that they are wrong, and the world continues to rotate about its wobbly
axis.

If that date does not come to pass, nothing will matter any longer
anyway.

The lead up to the date 20 December, 2012 will be no small worldwide
circus as well.

Mark my words... the critters are above ground now, and a whole lotta
shakin' is comin' down, so keep your powder dry and your ears keen. The
next couple of years are going to be a wild ride.

NOT a Brewster!

Son of a Sea Cook

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Aug 6, 2009, 10:02:58 PM8/6/09
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On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:44:14 -0700, Kent Paul Dolan <xant...@well.com>
wrote:


Yet another retarded response from the now gotta go google idiot,
Dolan!

The number is 13, you stupid twit!

And it coincides with our passage across the galactic equator.

TheEarth could get a pole reversal. If that is the case, it will be
noted well before the cross-through. We will see it happening. If the
poles do shift or reverse, we are in very deep kimshee <sp>.

Go back to school, little boy.

TheJoker

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Aug 6, 2009, 10:05:28 PM8/6/09
to
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:23:35 -0700, Ray <be...@sonic.net> wrote:

>On this date, according to Maya belief, the "Road to Xibalba"
>opens in the sky, and our world ceases to exist, joined forever
>with other worlds (other universes? hard to say exactly what
>the translations mean) and unknowable fates.


The word for today *may* be "entropy"?

AwlSome Auger

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Aug 6, 2009, 10:06:49 PM8/6/09
to
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:23:35 -0700, Ray <be...@sonic.net> wrote:

>
>The Maya people developed one of the most advanced and accurate
>calendars we have ever found any civilization using.


Thank you!

Sharansky

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Aug 6, 2009, 11:35:49 PM8/6/09
to
On Aug 6, 8:40 pm, TheJoker

<LeonardooftheLarcenousLa...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
>   Secondly, of course it is a date.  It is a very important date.
>
>   If that date comes to pass, then a whole lot of people will realize
> that they are wrong, and the world continues to rotate about its wobbly
> axis.
>
>   If that date does not come to pass, nothing will matter any longer
> anyway.
>
>   The lead up to the date 20 December, 2012 will be no small worldwide
> circus as well.
>
>   Mark my words... the critters are above ground now, and a whole lotta
> shakin' is comin' down, so keep your powder dry and your ears keen.  The
> next couple of years are going to be a wild ride.
>
>   NOT a Brewster!

You know, there's a pretty compelling theory that the Mayan scribes,
who were entrusted by the king with creating calendars ad infinitum,
tired of the job and told the king that the world would end at an
arbitrary date.
Also, I doubt your dry powder will help against the golden cube
that EVERYBODY knows is coming down from GOD's heaven to carry away
the good Christians on that hallowed date. Praise be.
adonis

The Great Attractor

unread,
Aug 6, 2009, 11:43:56 PM8/6/09
to
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 20:35:49 -0700 (PDT), Sharansky <nrch...@gmail.com>
wrote:


You must have missed that part where we are all NOT worthy, and are ALL
sinners, and ALL can only get there by one way.

So it comes down to whether or not you know what the last words on your
lips are going to be. Unless you are out cold when it happens. You know
not the hour.

Janis Papanagnou

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 6:54:35 AM8/7/09
to
TheJoker wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 16:18:45 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
> <janis_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Son of a Sea Cook wrote:
>>> Ask me if I still believe that on 12/21/2012, if you can, that is. :-]
>> "12/21/2012" - does that number indicate an extreemly very wide hip,
>> a black pudding maybe (or just the non-standard US date format)? :-p
>
> First off, dipshit, there is no "standard".

First, there's no need for insults. Especially if you have, apparently,
and once again with yet another topic, no clue about it.

Of course there's an international date standard. Have a look at the long
existing ISO 8601, now widely used and accepted, not only in computing
area, but also in many countries worldwide at least as optional format to
their native one.

In a country where they still use non-metric units that might not be well
known, though.

Janis

TheJoker

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 9:01:21 AM8/7/09
to


There are many countries that use non-metric units, you retarded twit.
Nearly all do, in fact. Do you still use pints of beer?

Also, there is no connection between the metric system and the fucking
calendar, or how a date is expressed in written form.

sreservoir

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 10:29:25 AM8/7/09
to
TheJoker wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 12:54:35 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
> <janis_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In a country where they still use non-metric units that might not be well
>> known, though.
>>
>> Janis
>
>
> There are many countries that use non-metric units, you retarded twit.

There are many countries with idiots, you ridiculous tautologist. It's
just that they don't let people outside the country see that.

Incidentally, most scientists seem to be using metric nowadays.

> Nearly all do, in fact. Do you still use pints of beer?

No, but I might be a minority.
I doubt that, though.

> Also, there is no connection between the metric system and the fucking
> calendar, or how a date is expressed in written form.

They both involve multiplication by constants, but that's probably not
the kind of connection you want.

Yes, there is a standard. If you paid any attention to Janis, iso8601.

The summary from
http://www.iso.org/iso/support/faqs/faqs_widely_used_standards/
widely_used_standards_other/date_and_time_format.htm

> ISO 8601 advises numeric representation of dates and times on an
> internationally agreed basis. It represents elements from the
> largest to the smallest element: year-month-day:
>
> * Calendar date is the most common date representation. It is:
>
> YYYY-MM-DD
>
> where YYYY is the year in the Gregorian calendar, MM is the month
> of the year between 01 (January) and 12 (December), and DD is the
> day of the month between 01 and 31.
>
> Example: 2003-04-01 represents the first day of April in 2003.

'internationally agreed basis' is approximately the same as 'standard'
in this language.
--

"Six by nine. Forty two."
"That's it. That's all there is."
"I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universe"

James Kanze

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 10:56:03 AM8/7/09
to
On Aug 7, 3:40 am, TheJoker
<LeonardooftheLarcenousLa...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 16:18:45 +0200, Janis Papanagnou

> <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Son of a Sea Cook wrote:

> >> Ask me if I still believe that on 12/21/2012, if you can,
> >> that is. :-]

> >"12/21/2012" - does that number indicate an extreemly very
> >wide hip, a black pudding maybe (or just the non-standard US
> >date format)? :-p

> First off, dipshit, there is no "standard". There are SEVERAL


> date formats used around the world, none of which and at the
> same time all of which are "standard" and ANY adult should
> have enough brains to decipher any format immediately.

Really. What about 03/02/01? And there is an ISO standard,
even if it isn't widely used when communicating with people.

Richard Bos

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 11:31:34 AM8/7/09
to
Ray <be...@sonic.net> wrote:

> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> > Son of a Sea Cook wrote:
> >>
> >> Ask me if I still believe that on 12/21/2012, if you can, that is. :-]
> >
> > "12/21/2012" - does that number indicate an extreemly very wide hip,
> > a black pudding maybe (or just the non-standard US date format)? :-p
>
> The Maya people developed one of the most advanced and accurate
> calendars we have ever found any civilization using. It measures
> not just the years and days, but also such features as the
> precession of the earth's axis (a 25800-year cycle) and relative
> orbits of other planets, and it does it correctly.

This is a myth.

> But unlike all the cruder and less accurate calendars in the
> world (including the one we use), the Maya calendar does not
> endlessly cycle. It has a definite end, a particular date on
> which the world is finished and there is no more time in the
> universe.
>
> On this date, according to Maya belief, the "Road to Xibalba"
> opens in the sky, and our world ceases to exist, joined forever
> with other worlds (other universes? hard to say exactly what
> the translations mean) and unknowable fates.

This is even more a myth.

Richard

Matt Weiner

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 12:23:13 PM8/7/09
to
So yeah, it's a good idea to keep your pet close by; they're
really very helpful to have. If you do want to wander off to
a different part of the level, it can be useful to have telepathy
so you can figure out where to go to retrieve it.

Derek Ray

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 1:04:00 PM8/7/09
to

OPTIONS=pettype:none

--
Derek

Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack

7aboir

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 3:45:50 PM8/7/09
to
ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote in
news:4a7c3f70...@news.xs4all.nl:

And how about 19 January 2038? not a myth, for sure. End of world! But
as I played a (small) role in Y2K crossing, I'm confident! Sure, I will
be retired at this very time (if not dead in 2012), and if retirement
still exists a this time (and I'm unfortunately not confident with this
idea)

Janis Papanagnou

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 6:02:14 PM8/7/09
to
TheJoker wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 12:54:35 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
> <janis_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In a country where they still use non-metric units that might not be well
>> known, though.
>
> There are many countries that use non-metric units,

Not that many as you seem to think.

> you retarded twit.

There's still no need for insults.

> Nearly all do, in fact. Do you still use pints of beer?

No, we use metric units for beer.

> Also, there is no connection between the metric system and the fucking
> calendar, or how a date is expressed in written form.

The connection is with people who are ignorant about standards.

Janis

life imitates life

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 11:59:08 PM8/7/09
to
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:29:25 -0400, sreservoir <srese...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Incidentally, most scientists seem to be using metric nowadays.

Incidentally, most American industry does as well.

Just because our food is not metric, and our roads and speed measure,
doesn't mean that a greater part of the country has not gone metric.

You could not likely name an American Jr. High or above school that
does not teach it.

Archimedes' Lever

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 12:00:03 AM8/8/09
to
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:29:25 -0400, sreservoir <srese...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> Nearly all do, in fact. Do you still use pints of beer?


>
>No, but I might be a minority.
>I doubt that, though.

At the time, we were talking about your country. Doh!

Archimedes' Lever

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 12:00:55 AM8/8/09
to
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:29:25 -0400, sreservoir <srese...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>widely_used


Doh!

Bet it lists more than one.

Archimedes' Lever

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 12:01:38 AM8/8/09
to
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:29:25 -0400, sreservoir <srese...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>


>'internationally agreed basis' is approximately the same as 'standard'
>in this language.
>

Bet it lists more than one. Doh!

TheJoker

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 12:04:03 AM8/8/09
to
On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 07:56:03 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<james...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Really. What about 03/02/01? And there is an ISO standard,
>even if it isn't widely used when communicating with people.

The current most widely used formats have a four digit year
representation, to zeroize ambiguity.

TheJoker

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 12:11:37 AM8/8/09
to
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:31:34 GMT, ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:

>
>This is a myth.


You're a twit to call the Mayan calendar's accuracy a myth.

They are accurate to-the-day and map time *and the moon, planets and
stars* over hundreds of thousands of years. It doesn't get much better
than that. Till now.

I personally use Celestica.

Why so uneducated?

Why so LIE spouting?

BillyPilgrim

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 12:16:45 AM8/8/09
to

Perhaps passing through the plane of the Galactic Equator in 2012 will
perturb the solar system's motion just enough to make 2038 a colossal
collision reality. Or maybe cause a rock to hit the rock that gets
closer than it already was... Ka Blooey!

Give me a button, and I'll push it! (it is up to you all to get the
reference)

Janis Papanagnou

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 1:58:06 AM8/8/09
to

A four digit year diasambiguates just one of the three fields. Four
digit year does not, in general, remove ambiguity between month/day.
Most countries have strictly ordered dates (either most significant
to least significant YYYY MM DD, or vice versa DD MM YYYY) at least.
For someone not growing up or residing specifically in the US of
America mixed (non-ordered) versions like YYYY DD MM, or MM DD YYYY,
or MM YYYY DD, or DD YYYY MM, make not much sense. In international
communications it is a wise move to use an international standard
representation. Personally I use ISO codes *even tough* my country
has the ordering vice versa and is using other separators between
the digit groups (and some people here still use even 2-digit years
in date format); the standard removes ambiguity from intercultural
different interpretations and makes communication easier in general.

Janis

pat

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 5:47:10 AM8/8/09
to
life imitates life wrote:
>Just because our food is not metric,

Food is not metric because you can be prosecuted under US Federal law
(the FPLA) if you don't put non-metric units on the label. Not many
people know that.

James Kanze

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 7:04:11 AM8/8/09
to
On Aug 8, 7:58 am, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Most countries have strictly ordered dates (either most
> significant to least significant YYYY MM DD, or vice versa DD
> MM YYYY) at least. For someone not growing up or residing
> specifically in the US of America mixed (non-ordered) versions
> like YYYY DD MM, or MM DD YYYY, or MM YYYY DD, or DD YYYY MM,
> make not much sense.

Even in the US, the military uses DD MM YYYY.

sreservoir

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 10:39:33 AM8/8/09
to
life imitates life wrote:
> Just because our food is not metric, and our roads and speed measure,
> doesn't mean that a greater part of the country has not gone metric.

That's for backward compatibility reasons, no?

> You could not likely name an American Jr. High or above school that
> does not teach it.

I probably couldn't, but it seems that even if it is taught, people
won't use it. But just out of curiosity, I would like to know if you can
name an american jr. high or above that teaches iso8601 formats.

life imitates life

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 11:11:32 AM8/8/09
to
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 02:47:10 -0700 (PDT), pat <pat.n...@iname.com>
wrote:

Labelling on food is strictly controlled, and has specific policies in
place here. The practice was followed throughout the world to certain
extents, and practically ignored in others (labeling guidelines, not
weight and volume declarations).

If you package food for sale here, you have a set of requisites to
meet. Packaged size declaration is only one.

Odd that we do not see weights on vitamins. We see quantities of a
compound, but that is no true indication of the weight of the medium that
the compound is in.

Archimedes' Lever

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 11:13:42 AM8/8/09
to
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 04:04:11 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<james...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Aug 8, 7:58 am, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Most countries have strictly ordered dates (either most
>> significant to least significant YYYY MM DD, or vice versa DD
>> MM YYYY) at least. For someone not growing up or residing
>> specifically in the US of America mixed (non-ordered) versions
>> like YYYY DD MM, or MM DD YYYY, or MM YYYY DD, or DD YYYY MM,
>> make not much sense.
>
>Even in the US, the military uses DD MM YYYY.

No. The military uses a three letter alpha month designation as:

21 DEC 2012

life imitates life

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 7:20:27 PM8/8/09
to
On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 10:39:33 -0400, sreservoir <srese...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>life imitates life wrote:
>> Just because our food is not metric, and our roads and speed measure,
>> doesn't mean that a greater part of the country has not gone metric.
>
>That's for backward compatibility reasons, no?
>
>> You could not likely name an American Jr. High or above school that
>> does not teach it.
>
>I probably couldn't, but it seems that even if it is taught, people
>won't use it. But just out of curiosity, I would like to know if you can
>name an american jr. high or above that teaches iso8601 formats.

Likely not until high school, but yes, standards are taught. Duh.

pat

unread,
Aug 9, 2009, 4:30:40 AM8/9/09
to
life imitates life wrote:
>>you can be prosecuted under US Federal law (the FPLA)
>>if you don't put non-metric units on the label.
>
>Labelling on food is strictly controlled,

Most jurisdictions have label laws:
* USA - mandates metric, mandates non-metric
* EU and probably rest of world - mandates metric, non-metric optional

Thus a US compliant product is legal in the EU. An EU compliant
product is illegal in the US without relabeling. This technical
barrier to the flow of trade costs us all money. Global brands are
lobby for a change so that a label that says "2 liters" is legal in
the US without saying how many pints it is.

ranger

unread,
Aug 10, 2009, 2:54:35 AM8/10/09
to
TheJoker wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:31:34 GMT, ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
>
>> This is a myth.
>
>
> You're a twit to call the Mayan calendar's accuracy a myth.

Which Mayan calendar, though?

And why is it so hard to accept what a civilization can accomplish if
they don't have priests declaring for many centuries that the world is
flat or that the sun revolves around it. Without that handicap, they
were able to observe the heavens for what they are.

So we are coming onto a day when one of the calendars happens to
accurately predict an alignment of a reference point of the galaxy with
a local event in our solar system. *We* are able to recognize that, so
why shouldn't the Mayans have been able to predict it?

There is no evidence at all that suggests the Mayans had any kind of
cataclysmic prediction for 2012. That idea is a modern concoction.

Instead of fabricating a doomsday scenario, we should just be extending
the long count, with the added knowledge that we've gained since it was
last updated.

Patric Mueller

unread,
Aug 10, 2009, 6:13:55 AM8/10/09
to
ranger <net...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> And why is it so hard to accept what a civilization can accomplish if
> they don't have priests declaring for many centuries that the world is
> flat

Please, don't propagate this myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

Especially a Christian priest in the Middle Ages would hardly argue
*against* the teachings of Aristotle.

> or that the sun revolves around it. [...]

It has to mentioned that the first heliocentric models weren't any
better than the geocentric. They were completely equivalent in their
predicability and accuracy.

> So we are coming onto a day when one of the calendars happens to
> accurately predict an alignment of a reference point of the galaxy
> with a local event in our solar system. *We* are able to recognize
> that, so why shouldn't the Mayans have been able to predict it?

For starters because the Galactic Center isn't visible from Earth
because of interstellar dust blocking the visible light?

If there were any evidence that the Mayans were aware of this
alignment it would be an interesting issue as to how they derived this
piece of information. :)

> There is no evidence at all that suggests the Mayans had any kind of
> cataclysmic prediction for 2012. That idea is a modern concoction.

Yes, but I would nevertheless be cautious. Such date transitions are
always a source of problems. I will at least have my Mayan computer
programs checked.

Bye
Patric

--
NetHack-De: NetHack auf Deutsch - http://nethack-de.sf.net/
NetHack for AROS: http://sf.net/projects/nethack-aros/
UnNetHack: http://apps.sf.net/trac/unnethack/

TheJoker

unread,
Aug 10, 2009, 7:17:51 AM8/10/09
to
On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 23:54:35 -0700, ranger <net...@cox.net> wrote:

>
>There is no evidence at all that suggests the Mayans had any kind of
>cataclysmic prediction for 2012. That idea is a modern concoction.

You're an idiot. The language has been deciphered. Your stupidity is a
family concoction. It's a goddamned shame too.

TheJoker

unread,
Aug 10, 2009, 7:18:58 AM8/10/09
to
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 12:13:55 +0200, Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>
>Please, don't propagate this myth.

This guy says "don't propagate" then posts a link that propagates.

Patric Mueller

unread,
Aug 10, 2009, 7:57:41 AM8/10/09
to

What do you want to wield? [- m or ?*]
m - a morning star named Trollsbane (weapon in hand).
You hit the troll!
The morning star named Trollsbane shines brilliantly! It strikes the
troll!
The troll turns to flee!
You kill the troll!

Now, ain't that sweet. In Vanilla he could revive.

Playing a variant does have its merits.

Orr@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org George Orr

unread,
Aug 10, 2009, 10:52:20 PM8/10/09
to
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:57:41 +0200, Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>TheJoker <Leonardoofthe...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 12:13:55 +0200, Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Please, don't propagate this myth.
>>
>> This guy says "don't propagate" then posts a link that propagates.
>
>What do you want to wield? [- m or ?*]
>m - a morning star named Trollsbane (weapon in hand).
>You hit the troll!
>The morning star named Trollsbane shines brilliantly! It strikes the
>troll!
>The troll turns to flee!
>You kill the troll!
>
>Now, ain't that sweet. In Vanilla he could revive.
>
>Playing a variant does have its merits.
>
>Bye
>Patric

Sorry, but yur bane doesn't.

Matt Weiner

unread,
Aug 11, 2009, 8:48:09 AM8/11/09
to

Dorothy with the Red Shoes on

unread,
Aug 11, 2009, 8:01:20 PM8/11/09
to
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 05:48:09 -0700 (PDT), Matt Weiner
<ma...@mattweiner.net> wrote:

snipped retarded, WRONG, stupid cartoon link.

The calendar is quite specific. There have been three other suns before
ours. Ours is the last.

The end of this cycle IS the end of man's time on Earth. It really is
that simple, and their literature backs it up.

Ray

unread,
Aug 11, 2009, 10:00:35 PM8/11/09
to

Yeah, that whole "road to Xibalba" thing is very much a doomsday
scenario for Earth.

That said, a Maya who finds him/herself still alive on December 22 2012
will probably take it as evidence that this cycle was not in fact the
last, contrary to expectations, and that therefore the long count should
be started again from zero.

Bear

ranger

unread,
Aug 12, 2009, 2:27:57 AM8/12/09
to
TheJoker wrote:

> You're an idiot.

And you have taken the discussion down to the level of personal insults,
which means that will be your last word on this, or any other subject.

ranger

unread,
Aug 12, 2009, 2:30:04 AM8/12/09
to
Patric Mueller wrote:

> Please, don't propagate this myth.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth
>

I will concede that probably more people believe in a flat Earth *today*
than any time in history :-(

Kai

unread,
Aug 12, 2009, 7:16:05 AM8/12/09
to

You're an idiot. It is not an insult, but merely an iteration of fact.

Kai

unread,
Aug 12, 2009, 7:16:40 AM8/12/09
to

You're an idiot.

sreservoir

unread,
Aug 12, 2009, 10:50:50 AM8/12/09
to

It's probably true, but only if you just grab the number.

Which is greater, a tenth of 10^63 or nine tenths of 10?

Doug Freyburger

unread,
Aug 12, 2009, 11:08:46 AM8/12/09
to

In spite of their stories, their physical calendars are circular.
There were stories of disaster at other calendar turns and the
world is still here.

So now I have a best guess on the DevTeam's release of
NetHack 4.0 - December 22 2012. I'll take that date for the
pool.

Ray Kulhanek

unread,
Aug 12, 2009, 11:24:08 AM8/12/09
to
Ray wrote:
> That said, a Maya who finds him/herself still alive on December 22 2012
> will probably take it as evidence that this cycle was not in fact the
> last, contrary to expectations, and that therefore the long count should
> be started again from zero.

Well, the standard argument against the claim that the Mayans believed
the world would end after B'ak'tun 13 is that some inscriptions make
reference to dates well after that.

In particular, there's some sort of Arthurian-style myth in which a
former king, Janaab Pakal, will return in 4772. Amusingly, the
date's from the same tomb as an inscription that others use
to argue that the Mayans were visited by aliens. If only they would
compare notes...

Ray Kulhanek

unread,
Aug 12, 2009, 11:42:01 AM8/12/09
to
Son of a Sea Cook wrote:
> TheEarth could get a pole reversal. If that is the case, it will be
> noted well before the cross-through. We will see it happening. If the
> poles do shift or reverse, we are in very deep kimshee <sp>.

Just like we were 780,000 years ago when it last happened. And
when it happened 120,000 years before that. And 160,000 before that,
and...