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Astral Strategies
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magicby...@yahoo.com
Dec 2, 2017, 9:33:36 PM12/2/17
to
Okay so I would like to talk astral strategies.
I'm playing Nethack 3.4.3 and I'm about to ascend my first lawful priest. I've ascended lots of neutral priests (and a few chaotic ones) but never a lawful one.
I have a couple of options, just asking what people think is best.
I'm playing a sort of "Lawful challenge game" where I'm challenging myself to be truly lawful. First of all I didn't kill any peacefuls the whole game (not shopkeepers either), never prayed at the wrong altar to get holy water, etc. And it seems to me that a truly lawful character wouldn't change his alignment to ascend, so this time around I'm not going to use helm of alignment change. I love playing neutrals and using this because it means you only have to go to one altar. With chaotics at most you need to go to two altars.
But for this lawful I'm not going to do my usual run, I may have to try all three altars. This means I'll need to try some altarnate strategies other than just wand of teleport. I may have to kill riders multiple times etc.
1. Wand of death, or the cudgel. The Death rider doesn't have a terrible amount of hit points. I've got AC-45 and the Sceptre of Might +7 on expert, so that's a lot of damage. For the other two I have 3 death sticks and 7 blessed scrolls of charging. Although I have the mitre of holiness on +7 and have maxed INT and WIS the failure rate for Finger of Death is still 95%. I find this annyoing because "Finger of Death" in D&D is actually a priest spell.
2. I have two blessed rings of regeneration. I have no idea if blessing them gives me more regeneration or less hunger, the wiki doesn't say. Currently I get back 9 hp per round with my maxed constitution. I know regenration causes more hunger typically but that can be prepared for.
3. Polymorph and polymorph control. I've heard the walking through walls thing (as a xorn) has been phased out (pun intended) of 3.4.3. Are there any other things worth it to polymorph into?
4. I have the spell fireball with a failure rate of 0%. Could this potentially clear out larger swaths of monsters?
5. I have magic missile spell and magic misslie wands. I hear these work well on riders. Any thoughts?
6. i have one wish left. blessed cockatrice corpse?
7. wish for boots of jumping? I can enchant them up and I have the light spell so I can "see where to land".
8. wish for boulder to block off doorway?
9. Genocide insects at just the right time?
Any other ideas?
I'm playing Nethack 3.4.3 and I'm about to ascend my first lawful priest. I've ascended lots of neutral priests (and a few chaotic ones) but never a lawful one.
I have a couple of options, just asking what people think is best.
I'm playing a sort of "Lawful challenge game" where I'm challenging myself to be truly lawful. First of all I didn't kill any peacefuls the whole game (not shopkeepers either), never prayed at the wrong altar to get holy water, etc. And it seems to me that a truly lawful character wouldn't change his alignment to ascend, so this time around I'm not going to use helm of alignment change. I love playing neutrals and using this because it means you only have to go to one altar. With chaotics at most you need to go to two altars.
But for this lawful I'm not going to do my usual run, I may have to try all three altars. This means I'll need to try some altarnate strategies other than just wand of teleport. I may have to kill riders multiple times etc.
1. Wand of death, or the cudgel. The Death rider doesn't have a terrible amount of hit points. I've got AC-45 and the Sceptre of Might +7 on expert, so that's a lot of damage. For the other two I have 3 death sticks and 7 blessed scrolls of charging. Although I have the mitre of holiness on +7 and have maxed INT and WIS the failure rate for Finger of Death is still 95%. I find this annyoing because "Finger of Death" in D&D is actually a priest spell.
2. I have two blessed rings of regeneration. I have no idea if blessing them gives me more regeneration or less hunger, the wiki doesn't say. Currently I get back 9 hp per round with my maxed constitution. I know regenration causes more hunger typically but that can be prepared for.
3. Polymorph and polymorph control. I've heard the walking through walls thing (as a xorn) has been phased out (pun intended) of 3.4.3. Are there any other things worth it to polymorph into?
4. I have the spell fireball with a failure rate of 0%. Could this potentially clear out larger swaths of monsters?
5. I have magic missile spell and magic misslie wands. I hear these work well on riders. Any thoughts?
6. i have one wish left. blessed cockatrice corpse?
7. wish for boots of jumping? I can enchant them up and I have the light spell so I can "see where to land".
8. wish for boulder to block off doorway?
9. Genocide insects at just the right time?
Any other ideas?
Drazen Kacar
Dec 3, 2017, 3:51:38 AM12/3/17
to
> Any other ideas?
You just walk slowly around and kill them all. :-)
> 1. Wand of death, or the cudgel. The Death rider doesn't have a
> terrible amount of hit points. I've got AC-45 and the Sceptre of
> Might +7 on expert, so that's a lot of damage. For the other two I
The other two don't have much hit points, either. Zapping them with a
wand of death is faster, but the wand can miss. Even if the beam
reflects from the wall, it can miss both times.
Then you just kill them the old fashioned way. What's wrong with that?
You just walk slowly around and kill them all. :-)
> 1. Wand of death, or the cudgel. The Death rider doesn't have a
> terrible amount of hit points. I've got AC-45 and the Sceptre of
> Might +7 on expert, so that's a lot of damage. For the other two I
wand of death is faster, but the wand can miss. Even if the beam
reflects from the wall, it can miss both times.
Then you just kill them the old fashioned way. What's wrong with that?
Janis Papanagnou
Dec 3, 2017, 4:55:03 AM12/3/17
to
On 03.12.2017 03:33, magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
> [ ascending priest with specific self-imposed "lawful challange" ]
> and have maxed INT and WIS the failure rate for Finger of Death is still
> 95%. I find this annyoing because "Finger of Death" in D&D is actually a
> priest spell.
The "problem" here is that in Nethack priests are *restricted* in attack
spells. With all attributes maxed (assuming a +5 Mitre of Holiness, and a
robe) you can get only up to a 77% failure rate at best.
>
> 2. I have two blessed rings of regeneration. [...]
With that low an AC and the typically many HPs that late game priests have
I really don't think you need any regeneration. If you're concerned about
dealing damage I'd probably use increase damage (besides free action). But
my standard is anyway rather to use conflict, which is much more effective
but it may probably violate your conduct.
>
> 3. Polymorph and polymorph control.
(I've never done that.)
>
> 4. I have the spell fireball with a failure rate of 0%. Could this
> potentially clear out larger swaths of monsters?
Probably. In the same vein a scroll of stinking cloud may be an option.
(I think I applied that once, but not regularly, since I think there are
more effective simpler and not item-consuming options.)
>
> 5. I have magic missile spell and magic misslie wands. I hear these work
> well on riders. Any thoughts?
Since you should be high level by then the magic missile spell is indeed
very effective. But keep in mind that quite a couple of Astral's residents
may have shields of reflection (and player characters there the respective
amulet.)
>
> 6. i have one wish left. blessed cockatrice corpse?
Wishing for "a partly eaten chickatrice corpse" is something I've seen
other players do. (I don't. I've one or two times used a random corpse
there, but that's it. It's very effective for the priests and angels,
but not usable for the riders.)
>
> 7. wish for boots of jumping? I can enchant them up and I have the light
> spell so I can "see where to land".
Jumping is IMO an excellent property to have at the Astral plane. Better
than the boots is the spell; you can even jump with it while burdened,
and it doesn't block the boots slot (which I prefer for permanent speed).
Jumping is so effective (in conjunction with a wand of teleport) that I
very often even wish for the spellbook immediately after arriving on that
level (if I haven't got the book before).
>
> 8. wish for boulder to block off doorway?
Probably helpful, but it may be to risky in the presence of monsters with
wands of striking. (I wouldn't with for that.)
>
> 9. Genocide insects at just the right time?
Hmm.. - I'd think this would be rather counter-productive; the insects are
typically very useful.
>
> Any other ideas?
My procedures imply regularly jumping, wands of teleport, conflict, ranged
attacks. (With priority in the given order.)
I've seen other players reverse genocide tons of purple worms, tame them,
and (with many pet worms around them) break a wand of teleportation so that
they are spread across the level to do the dirty job for you. It requires
some material (and/or spell proficiencies) to do that.
Janis
> [ ascending priest with specific self-imposed "lawful challange" ]
>
> I have a couple of options, just asking what people think is best.
>
> I have a couple of options, just asking what people think is best.
>
> But for this lawful I'm not going to do my usual run, I may have to try all
> three altars. This means I'll need to try some altarnate strategies other
> than just wand of teleport. I may have to kill riders multiple times etc.
>
> 1. Wand of death, or the cudgel. The Death rider doesn't have a terrible
> amount of hit points. I've got AC-45 and the Sceptre of Might +7 on expert,
> so that's a lot of damage. For the other two I have 3 death sticks and 7
> blessed scrolls of charging. Although I have the mitre of holiness on +7
(At "+7" - didn't knew that was possible.)
> three altars. This means I'll need to try some altarnate strategies other
> than just wand of teleport. I may have to kill riders multiple times etc.
>
> 1. Wand of death, or the cudgel. The Death rider doesn't have a terrible
> amount of hit points. I've got AC-45 and the Sceptre of Might +7 on expert,
> so that's a lot of damage. For the other two I have 3 death sticks and 7
> blessed scrolls of charging. Although I have the mitre of holiness on +7
> and have maxed INT and WIS the failure rate for Finger of Death is still
> 95%. I find this annyoing because "Finger of Death" in D&D is actually a
> priest spell.
spells. With all attributes maxed (assuming a +5 Mitre of Holiness, and a
robe) you can get only up to a 77% failure rate at best.
>
> 2. I have two blessed rings of regeneration. [...]
With that low an AC and the typically many HPs that late game priests have
I really don't think you need any regeneration. If you're concerned about
dealing damage I'd probably use increase damage (besides free action). But
my standard is anyway rather to use conflict, which is much more effective
but it may probably violate your conduct.
>
> 3. Polymorph and polymorph control.
>
> 4. I have the spell fireball with a failure rate of 0%. Could this
> potentially clear out larger swaths of monsters?
(I think I applied that once, but not regularly, since I think there are
more effective simpler and not item-consuming options.)
>
> 5. I have magic missile spell and magic misslie wands. I hear these work
> well on riders. Any thoughts?
very effective. But keep in mind that quite a couple of Astral's residents
may have shields of reflection (and player characters there the respective
amulet.)
>
> 6. i have one wish left. blessed cockatrice corpse?
other players do. (I don't. I've one or two times used a random corpse
there, but that's it. It's very effective for the priests and angels,
but not usable for the riders.)
>
> 7. wish for boots of jumping? I can enchant them up and I have the light
> spell so I can "see where to land".
than the boots is the spell; you can even jump with it while burdened,
and it doesn't block the boots slot (which I prefer for permanent speed).
Jumping is so effective (in conjunction with a wand of teleport) that I
very often even wish for the spellbook immediately after arriving on that
level (if I haven't got the book before).
>
> 8. wish for boulder to block off doorway?
wands of striking. (I wouldn't with for that.)
>
> 9. Genocide insects at just the right time?
typically very useful.
>
> Any other ideas?
My procedures imply regularly jumping, wands of teleport, conflict, ranged
attacks. (With priority in the given order.)
I've seen other players reverse genocide tons of purple worms, tame them,
and (with many pet worms around them) break a wand of teleportation so that
they are spread across the level to do the dirty job for you. It requires
some material (and/or spell proficiencies) to do that.
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
Dec 3, 2017, 6:02:19 AM12/3/17
to
and third" hit will miss as well (or you lose turns to fix the issue).
Janis
magicby...@yahoo.com
Dec 3, 2017, 5:03:35 PM12/3/17
to
So I did it guys. Thanks for all the help. One thing Janis said "insects are typically very useful" seems to have really borne out to be the truth.
My strategy this time around was alternating melee, wand of teleport, and wand of death. I had three fully charged wands of death, because I just was able to bash the wizard with my +7 Sceptre of Might when he appeared. So I had all that saved up.
I had many wands of teleport, and had them fully charged. During a polypile I got a stack of 8 (EIGHT!) scrolls of charging. Yeehaww!
I've changed my mind on prep for Astral. For spellcasters, blessed potion of gain energy is quite nice. It allows you to cast spells more freely, especially spells like Extra Healing and Light. As well I've changed my mind on blessed potions of gain ability at least for spellcasters. For fighter types that don't intend on casting spells, they're not as neccesary: and your dex, con and Str are likely already at 18 or close.
But 3 scrolls of cursed genocide to nurse dance is a way better option. If you get scrolls of genocide from normal treasure or polypiling that's great, but wishing for a magic marker for this very purpose is not out of the question. It's a wish that will net you 250-300hp. If you have a magic marker this is a perfectly legitimate use of that item. One item for 300HP? Sounds good! You dont' want more that 400hp because it tends to be a waste. A blessed potion of full healing only restores 400hp. So essentially you only get to use the hp above 400 ONE TIME. Does that make sense, what I'm saying?
Using blessed potion of full healing for the purpose of gaining permanent hp doesn't seem like as good a use. A blessed potion of full healing is almost like an "extra life". It fills you to max and you simply continue. This is very valuable. I had 14 bpofh when I ascended. Only needed to use one though!
My strategy was very simple.
@ Priest: Teleport them out of the way. Don't use wand of death on them. Don't melee them (takes too much time). Let them stay alive and summon insects.
a Insect: You should be able to kill an insect in one hit and you shouldn't miss them. If you have an artifact weapon fully enchanted and on expert this should be no problem. Spellcasters with Magic Bane should magic misslie instead.
A (Angel or Archon): Do not fight them. Takes too long. Wand of teleport. Death rays will likely be ineffective and Reflected.
@ Famine: Use wand of death. You don't want to melee famine because you will have to stop to feed yourself and/or take more comestibles out of your bag. This is tons of turns. Wand of death is 1-3 turns instead of 10-20 turns for melee. Famine also stuns you in melee Wand of magic missile if you're out of death zaps. This also starts the process before he starts meleeing you and causing hunger.
@ Pestilence: Wand of death. Pestilence isn't any different than famine. Your need to heal or use unicorn in response to his illness attacks takes many turns. Wand of death instead and kill him at a distance or in 1-3 turns.
@ Death. Death actually isn't as hard, he's just intimidating. If you have magic resistance, his instadeath attack simply won't work. The reason he's easier is that when in melee you won't have to stop and use up turns on eating, using items or use turns with your unicorn horn like you do with the other riders. Zap with magic missle (wand or spell) as many times as you can before meleeing him to make the process easier.
Any other monster: The main thing here is your judgement. If it's going to take you more than 3 melee hits to kill them then simply wand of teleport or wand of death.
Empty square: If you have an empty square ahead of you towards your goal ALWAYS use your turn to step on it. Don't use items if avoidable until you are blocked. Wasting clear spaces to mess around with items isn't worth it. You're going to be blocked eventually but use every move you can to go to your goal.
Diagonal: I used to thing this was a bad idea, but it isn't. Any time you have a chance to step toward your goal, do it instead of any other action, even if it's diagonal. A diagonal move will force the horde or group of monsters to shift, which is good. You will also find that diagonal movement may be more direct and that diagonal movement forward will cancel out such that it's not a detriment.
Example: Your goal is straight ahead. There is a monster blocking the straight but there's an empty square to your diagonal left forward. You take it. After a few more turns you are stopped by a horde of insects. Now, instead of killing the forward insect in one hit, you kill the right diagonal insect in one hit (this takes the exact same amount of time).
So in the analysis you've actually gained a turn by opting to go on that free diagonal, and have gotten closer to your goal in less time.
it sounds minuscule but doing this several times saves several turns. Diagonal steps also force the horde or group of monsters to shift and re-adjust. If they don't do it well you get more free empty spaces!
My strategy this time around was alternating melee, wand of teleport, and wand of death. I had three fully charged wands of death, because I just was able to bash the wizard with my +7 Sceptre of Might when he appeared. So I had all that saved up.
I had many wands of teleport, and had them fully charged. During a polypile I got a stack of 8 (EIGHT!) scrolls of charging. Yeehaww!
I've changed my mind on prep for Astral. For spellcasters, blessed potion of gain energy is quite nice. It allows you to cast spells more freely, especially spells like Extra Healing and Light. As well I've changed my mind on blessed potions of gain ability at least for spellcasters. For fighter types that don't intend on casting spells, they're not as neccesary: and your dex, con and Str are likely already at 18 or close.
But 3 scrolls of cursed genocide to nurse dance is a way better option. If you get scrolls of genocide from normal treasure or polypiling that's great, but wishing for a magic marker for this very purpose is not out of the question. It's a wish that will net you 250-300hp. If you have a magic marker this is a perfectly legitimate use of that item. One item for 300HP? Sounds good! You dont' want more that 400hp because it tends to be a waste. A blessed potion of full healing only restores 400hp. So essentially you only get to use the hp above 400 ONE TIME. Does that make sense, what I'm saying?
Using blessed potion of full healing for the purpose of gaining permanent hp doesn't seem like as good a use. A blessed potion of full healing is almost like an "extra life". It fills you to max and you simply continue. This is very valuable. I had 14 bpofh when I ascended. Only needed to use one though!
My strategy was very simple.
@ Priest: Teleport them out of the way. Don't use wand of death on them. Don't melee them (takes too much time). Let them stay alive and summon insects.
a Insect: You should be able to kill an insect in one hit and you shouldn't miss them. If you have an artifact weapon fully enchanted and on expert this should be no problem. Spellcasters with Magic Bane should magic misslie instead.
A (Angel or Archon): Do not fight them. Takes too long. Wand of teleport. Death rays will likely be ineffective and Reflected.
@ Famine: Use wand of death. You don't want to melee famine because you will have to stop to feed yourself and/or take more comestibles out of your bag. This is tons of turns. Wand of death is 1-3 turns instead of 10-20 turns for melee. Famine also stuns you in melee Wand of magic missile if you're out of death zaps. This also starts the process before he starts meleeing you and causing hunger.
@ Pestilence: Wand of death. Pestilence isn't any different than famine. Your need to heal or use unicorn in response to his illness attacks takes many turns. Wand of death instead and kill him at a distance or in 1-3 turns.
@ Death. Death actually isn't as hard, he's just intimidating. If you have magic resistance, his instadeath attack simply won't work. The reason he's easier is that when in melee you won't have to stop and use up turns on eating, using items or use turns with your unicorn horn like you do with the other riders. Zap with magic missle (wand or spell) as many times as you can before meleeing him to make the process easier.
Any other monster: The main thing here is your judgement. If it's going to take you more than 3 melee hits to kill them then simply wand of teleport or wand of death.
Empty square: If you have an empty square ahead of you towards your goal ALWAYS use your turn to step on it. Don't use items if avoidable until you are blocked. Wasting clear spaces to mess around with items isn't worth it. You're going to be blocked eventually but use every move you can to go to your goal.
Diagonal: I used to thing this was a bad idea, but it isn't. Any time you have a chance to step toward your goal, do it instead of any other action, even if it's diagonal. A diagonal move will force the horde or group of monsters to shift, which is good. You will also find that diagonal movement may be more direct and that diagonal movement forward will cancel out such that it's not a detriment.
Example: Your goal is straight ahead. There is a monster blocking the straight but there's an empty square to your diagonal left forward. You take it. After a few more turns you are stopped by a horde of insects. Now, instead of killing the forward insect in one hit, you kill the right diagonal insect in one hit (this takes the exact same amount of time).
So in the analysis you've actually gained a turn by opting to go on that free diagonal, and have gotten closer to your goal in less time.
it sounds minuscule but doing this several times saves several turns. Diagonal steps also force the horde or group of monsters to shift and re-adjust. If they don't do it well you get more free empty spaces!
NorthernValkyrie
Dec 5, 2017, 6:54:13 AM12/5/17
to
Maybe I make things harder for myself, but I use pretty much the same strategy on the Astral Plane that I do with Fort Ludios: stand one step back from the doorway and slaughter everything that comes at me until the room is empty enough, and then enter, repeating the process with the waiting room outside the altar room.
Sure, it takes a while, but Astral clergy helpfully summon insects that provide a great buffer, and Riders like Death and Pestilence are easy peasy. It's Famine I have a real struggle with, so I like to zap him with death.
I do it this way as a matter of personal preference. It's slower but simpler, and my deaths on the Astral Plane have typically been when I've tried to charge into the fray and gotten mobbed.
Sure, it takes a while, but Astral clergy helpfully summon insects that provide a great buffer, and Riders like Death and Pestilence are easy peasy. It's Famine I have a real struggle with, so I like to zap him with death.
I do it this way as a matter of personal preference. It's slower but simpler, and my deaths on the Astral Plane have typically been when I've tried to charge into the fray and gotten mobbed.
David Damerell
Dec 5, 2017, 6:59:10 AM12/5/17
to
No, you don't, since you cheat.
>Sure, it takes a while, but Astral clergy helpfully summon insects that
>provide a great buffer, and Riders like Death and Pestilence are easy
>peasy. It's Famine I have a real struggle with, so I like to zap him
>with death.
If you didn't cheat perhaps you'd get better at the game - at least good
enough to recognise that Famine is a bad joke. That's not a high bar.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Gorgonzoladay, November - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Potmos, December.
>Sure, it takes a while, but Astral clergy helpfully summon insects that
>provide a great buffer, and Riders like Death and Pestilence are easy
>peasy. It's Famine I have a real struggle with, so I like to zap him
>with death.
enough to recognise that Famine is a bad joke. That's not a high bar.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Gorgonzoladay, November - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Potmos, December.
NorthernValkyrie
Dec 5, 2017, 10:09:25 AM12/5/17
to
On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 11:59:10 AM UTC, David Damerell wrote:
OK man. Is this going to be a running theme with you or something? Your judgement is noted, you can give it a rest now.
OK man. Is this going to be a running theme with you or something? Your judgement is noted, you can give it a rest now.
jim in austin
Dec 5, 2017, 11:13:25 AM12/5/17
to
On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 9:09:25 AM UTC-6, NorthernValkyrie wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 11:59:10 AM UTC, David Damerell wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 11:59:10 AM UTC, David Damerell wrote:
> > Quoting NorthernValkyrie <pdf...@gmail.com>:
> > No, you don't, since you cheat.
>
> OK man. Is this going to be a running theme with you or something? Your
> judgement is noted, you can give it a rest now.
Yeah, it's a loooong running theme in the game. But surprisingly enough,
> > No, you don't, since you cheat.
>
> OK man. Is this going to be a running theme with you or something? Your
> judgement is noted, you can give it a rest now.
there actually is no High Council of Nethack Purity and Ethical Play.
It's YOUR game. Play it YOUR way. And if you're happy with the result,
enjoy...
magicby...@yahoo.com
Dec 7, 2017, 12:17:48 AM12/7/17
to
And that premise is 100% false.
REAL NETHACK PLAYERS DON'T CHEAT BY TALKING ON MESSAGE BOARDS, READING SPOILERS AND CHECKING THE WIKI! REAL NETHACK PLAYERS REMOVE 15 KEYS FROM THEIR KEYBOARD, PLAY WHILE BLINDFOLDED AND DRUNK!
Janis Papanagnou
Dec 8, 2017, 3:54:29 PM12/8/17
to
On 07.12.2017 06:17, magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> The common belief is that the fastest way to get good at Nethack is to play
> without ever cheating.
> And that premise is 100% false.
Frankly, I'm not blessed enough to be able to talk about any "common belief".
>
> The common belief is that the fastest way to get good at Nethack is to play
> without ever cheating.
> And that premise is 100% false.
What I'm positive about is that looking ahead (say, by using explore mode)
helps to shortcut the time to see what you'd not see if you constantly die
early. Though, in the past 15+ years of RGRN, the more experienced players
here usually pointed out that by not facing the problems you are confronted
with in Nethack you won't advance your skill level. The point is, at some
instance in time you have to remove your support wheels to advance to the
next level ("to get good at NH").
Above quoted statement is also not that helpful; there are different sorts
of cheats. Playing locally with save file backups will not bring you to the
next (personal) level. Start scumming will also not bring you to the next
(personal) level. Unless you stop it and use your "peeks into the future"
to continue playing regularly and trying to solve the issues without such
cheats.
Arguing about the _fastest_ way seems also a straw man argument; David's
post talked about "getting better". And I chime in to jim's post; enjoy
the game the way you like!
Janis
magicby...@yahoo.com
Dec 9, 2017, 1:46:57 AM12/9/17
to
Teaching and training someone to do something works best by softening consequences at first and then making them more difficult later.
The idea to start something in the most difficult way possible as a means of learning is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Imagine if you taught other skills this way!
"You know the best way to learn to build a brick wall is to not use a level, chalk lines, or videos or a teacher explaining things to you. The best way is to do trial and error with no coaching or information. Then when your brick wall looks like crap, you'll learn from it and do better next time. This is the best way to learn."
"You know the best way to learn how to fight quickly is to only fight the biggest people you can with no safety precautions at all."
"You know the best way to learn to ride a bike is to do it with no assistance of a parent holding the seat and no training wheels. By falling off a lot and getting hurt a lot, you will learn quicker.
Sorry, no, you're just wrong from a pedagogical perspective. The best way to learn something is by incrementally increasing difficulty and accumulating knowledge as quickly as possible.
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