1. Zadir (Pri Hum Fem Neu), killed by overexertion, 2147483647 points,
HP:4140, Astral Plane, max depth: 49, played on 20050228-20050309, on NH
This lengthy rant roughly outlines one way of getting the highest possible
score, within the game's given limits.
To start, the Priest role was used, primarily because that class can get the
polearm ability to 'skilled' (for the "Death farming" that would happen
much, much later), as well as getting 3 key spell categories to 'expert'.
The starting inventory plus intrinsic blessed / cursed detection didn't hurt
either. The character can start with a random healing spellbook, although
that didn't happen this game, but it would have helped in the protection
racket. I don't recall ever casting any kind of heal spell in all 700k turns
of this long trial actually. All in all a welcome variation from the
overplayed Wizard role.
Not having done anything of this magnitude in Nethack before, I decided to
overprepare for the ensuing journey. Part of that was to do the protection
racket, which after some close brushes and one level gain from a pesky
wererat, was a success after scamming 2 storekeeps out of their gold and
donating the 6k gold to the minetown priest for a 9 AC reduction. A toolshop
with 2 magic markers and a bag of holding certainly helped things along,
although the character could have lived just fine without any of those at
that point. Sokoban yielded a "oR and a wand of polymorph, both of which
proved immensely useful, while mine's end was uneventful, with no surprise
poly-traps triggered, even though that was planned for by wearing a
disposable body armor and robe. Poison resist is important to have before
attempting either, since a close call with a poisoned dart resulted only in
a "you feel sick", instead of an insta-death.
Having collected every bit of magical armor up to that point, and with a
poly wand, it was time to upgrade armor some. Blessing everything to be
polymorphed, fumble boots and all, and zapping the poly wand at the shiny
armor pile resulted in a helm of brilliance and speed boots, which were
welcome additions. The helm of brilliance was +0, so the random +3 dwarvish
helm would have had to do until an enchant armor scroll was found.
The next step was to determine if the increase damage rings were edible, and
to avoid artifact generation so that certain key quest artifacts could be
wished for, which meant no sacrificing until the castle wand was found. Up
to this game, a number of failed game attempts were made to determine if
that ring was edible, which if not, would have made the objective much
harder to reach, for lack of damage. So, on to the castle!
Down, down, down the floors, finding a random ring of levitation, being
cautious with cloak and armor since I didn't have magic resistance yet and
poly traps were a threat (as well as finger of death, which does not come
across very often at XL 10), venturing up to the castle. Quick float over to
the back door, meleeing a shark, and using a few summoned boulders pushed
into the moat to isolate the remaining eels from any nearby squares. Go in,
fight the dragons, get a yellow scale mail (only one out of 7 dragons fought
up to that point), drink a blessed !oOD, check weapon room for any
artifacts, hope that none are generated, then open that middle door. I stood
behind a trap door so that the walking monsters would simply fall down, to
deal with later. A few brown "L"'s were the biggest threat of that monster
group, which are really not much. Clearing out the monsters was undramatic,
not even a disenchanter was there to make things interesting. Throne, nada.
Walk up to the wishing chest, unlock, bag the brass wand before anything
stupid happens like a wayward bolt of lightning from an angry troll, kill
off any monsters nearby, then begin wishing.
First wish was for a blessed +1 ring of increase damage, resulting in a
shiny ring! This was a huge relief to me, knowing that the effort didn't go
to waste this time.
Second wish was for the Eye of the Aethiopica, which, in hindsight, was the
ONLY artifact I really needed this game, the other 4(!) wished artifacts
were used infrequently. In order of use, they were the Staff of Aesculapius,
the PYEC, the Eyes of the Overworld, and lastly the Orb of Fate. (Half spell
damage, half physical damage, a weapon that recovers half of the lost health
with one invocation, a tool that gives unlimited uncursed charging, and
unlimited enlightenments) I really went overboard with those, but the first
3 artifacts were had with one wishing wand. (EotA, PYEC, SoA), with the
remaining 2 wished up for with items from the .. pudding farm.
Yes, a pudding farm. How else can huge amounts of rings be generated in a
short period of time? The setup was straightforward, clear out the highest
floor that has an altar, light up the level, burn "Elbereth" on the square
behind that altar, plunk a container on said square, and surround those with
boulders, leaving the end opposite of the "Elbereth" square open for pudding
The "." is an empty square, useful for cancelling items on, like with
diluting hundreds of potions in one stroke. The potions of booze, juice, or
oil can be diluted further with the other uncursed water potions that result
from the cancel.
A few precautionary measures were made, like genociding "c"'s so that no
inopportune stonings take place, and "H" after strength was maxed, so that
none come in and ruin the nice little boulder fort. Again, conducts were the
last thing in mind here.
What results after this is thousands upon thousands of turns of cut-pasting
text, and using a macro program called "KeyText" for windows to speed things
up. The next objective was to obtain a high enough damage bonus to kill an
end rider in 1 turn, which, with eit_brad's last attempt, was +59, but I
wasn't totally sure that was enough. My original goal was to have a +100
bonus, but that proved much too time consuming, and even un-necessary. +82
was enough, made possible in part by a lucky polymorph of hundreds of
scrolls that yielded a pile of 60 charging. As well as that, -128 AC and +7
helm of brilliance and gauntlets of dexterity were wanted, and gained after
hundreds of polypiling attempts. A neat discovery was that polymorph at
'unskilled' can be cast at lower than 40% failure with a robe and that +7
helm of brilliance. This all fits under the overpreparation stance.
So, with everything needed, the last thing was to have a few dozen cursed
and blessed genocide scrolls, a dozen or so create monster scrolls, 4 gold
detection scrolls, a wand of wishing + scroll of charging for said wand, and
a "BoH-in-BoH" containing hundreds of blessed blank scrolls, 3 dozen holy
water and some key spell books, which all together did not even result in a
'burdened' weight. I was considering carrying copious quantities of food,
which were really not needed, since Death's death drops more than covered
that need. If anyone wants to know though, a PYEC and a horn of plenty alone
will keep a player nourished in game indefinitely, even if all other sources
of food were exhausted.
On to the Astral Plane! Descending, grabbing the amulet, and getting up to
the Plane of Water was a complete non-adventure, considering the sick amount
of preparation that took place. In the Astral Plane though, some of the
creatures there actually took 2 hits before keeling over!
What ensued was borrowed in large part from eit_brad's post during the 2003
dev/null tournament, regarding his successful Pestilence farming attempt. He
was able to trap Death in a jelly/boulder prison in this kind of
arrangement, using the Eyes of the Overworld to see the rider through the
boulder using Astral Vision, which allowed him to hit that rider using a
polearm, and to revive the rider immediately afterwards with a push attempt.
This setup was very convenient for him, as it allowed him to rack up points
without ever moving. Unfortunately, this ability was considered a "bug" and
fixed in the 3.4.3 update, so that polearms no longer can be used through
boulders. There was a workaround though, and it was this:
Where the @ can kill and revive the & and move back to the original square
in only 4 moves, instead of 6 had the polearm ability been less than
'skilled'. As well, more movement results in more room for error, and 1
square of movement is more than enough. This initial setup was adequate for
short bursts of monitored macroing, but packet loss would often cause one
mis-step and a displaced jelly was all that was needed to mess up the entire
setup.The remedy for that was to put boulders in certain key areas to remove
risk factors, so that the final workable setup looked like this:
Which left one final risk factor, if the "j" to the immediate top left were
displaced and the macro of "aw78.674" were to continue, the polearm would
strike the boulder to the immediate top left of the & in that diagram, a
"Nothing happens" message occured, and a turn would be used, which was bad.
The solution was to read a cursed scroll of light in the top left of the
room in which that setup was placed, so that further attempts to polearm
that boulder in question would result in a "You won't hit anything if you
can't see the spot" message, and would _not_ use up a turn, which was good.
To actually do the macro I wanted a minimum of interruptions, so the titans
and archons had to go, along with their constant castings and summonings.
Since they couldn't be genocided, the next best thing was to use create
monster repeatedly until they would just stop spawning, which was
surprisingly faster than I originally thought, since they would spawn
frequently at XL 30 on that level. So once create monster attempts resulted
in nothing being created, I then restarted the macro. Things went smoothly,
with regular macro movement killing any wayward monster spawn on the
neighbouring squares, and the only thing left between the score then and
2^31-1 was mere repetition.
Crashes seemed to occur frequently, which paxed was nice enough to remedy
through character restorations. I don't know what particular events
triggered the crashes, but I've had no success in recreating them
voluntarily. One such crash resulted in a 150 million point loss, after
about 30 minutes of effort, which, if anything, gave me a gauge on how fast
the points were actually coming.
After several hundreds of thousands of repetitions of that (I had turned the
step counter off at this point), the counter creeped over 2.1 billion, and
eventually to within a few thousand points of 2147483647, at 2147475424. 3
wishes had been used for 15000 gold a short while previous to that (easily
avoidable in hindsight, and wish sources were overly plentiful at this
point), to round off the final tally at exactly 2^31-1, with a minor
calculation, death reducing gold points by 90%, so 9136 gold coins were
needed (not 9137, since nethack seems to round up in every case regarding
gold, although 9137 is a regular roundup) The final choice of death decided
in irc.freenode.com's #nethack was "snu snu", so the final setup took place
accordingly. First I blocked up the final "resting place" with boulders,
then a wish was made for a blessed succubus statue, but a suggestion (1 wish
too late) that I press ^X to see the gender proved useful, since it had
changed a number of times through failed polymorph attempts. So, another
final wish on a blessed incubus statue (could have easily wished for an
amulet of change, I guess presence of mind wasn't a huge factor in choosing
the best way to die), applying said statue, level draining self to 1,
wearing 2 really crappy rings of adornment, making a homage to the
Hitchhiker's Guide (which is full of sage advice for all stripes and
colors), and finally, initiating snu snu with the mancubus. A few good
rendezvous occured, even a level gain, but finally, one really bad session
capped off the journey.
Zadir, neutral female human Priestess
! ! [
`)|`/?%[(`|[`| --------- --`(---------)?|
|`+|`(?[)`*|[*| --`%[_?[+-- )-(*%|`))(/(`|*?|
|(%|`*=_)+%|![?-- --/)?[)+[-- -----)----- --*%?!=!?-- --[%%|=%/I`@&|_/|
|[!---------[*-- ----!---- --[))[/_(-- ----*---- --==---------=?|
(Note: That mess of items is the result of zapping a wand of teleport > at a
pile of 20,000+ items, not recommended)Zadir the Aspirant St:18/** Dx:18
Co:18 In:18 Wi:18 Ch:7 Neutral S:-2147482736
Astral Plane $:9136 HP:4140(4140) Pw:88(88) AC:-80 Exp:1 T:716770
z - a +0 T-shirt named Don't Panic!
a - a silver-grey glass fish bowl named "So Long, and Thanks For All The
V - a -5 ring of adornment (on right hand)
P - a -6 ring of adornment (on left hand)
C - a towel
You were the Envoy of Balance
You were piously aligned
You were fire resistant
You were cold resistant
You were sleep resistant
You were disintegration-resistant
You were shock resistant
You were poison resistant
You saw invisible
You were telepathic
You were poorly adorned
You were invisible to others
You were stealthy
You could survive without air
You had a +18 bonus to hit
You had a +82 damage bonus
You were protected
You are dead
Spells known in the end
Name Level Category Fail
a - charm monster 3* enchantment 94%
b - remove curse 3 clerical 27%
c - create familiar 6* clerical 100%
d - drain life 2 attack 68%
e - sleep 1* enchantment 0%
f - force bolt 1* attack 0%
g - cone of cold 4* attack 100%
h - cancellation 7* matter 100%
i - levitation 4* escape 100%
j - fireball 4* attack 100%
k - slow monster 2* enchantment 68%
l - clairvoyance 3* divination 94%
m - magic mapping 5* divination 100%
n - detect treasure 4* divination 100%
o - confuse monster 2* enchantment 68%
p - polymorph 6* matter 100%
q - restore ability 4* healing 100%
r - invisibility 4* escape 100%
s - detect monsters 1 divination 0%
t - detect unseen 3* divination 94%
u - detect food 2* divination 68%
v - extra healing 3* healing 91%
w - healing 1* healing 0%
x - knock 1* matter 0%
y - finger of death 7* attack 100%
z - teleport away 6* escape 100%
A - identify 3* divination 94%
B - light 1* divination 0%
C - create monster 2* clerical 0%
D - wizard lock 2* matter 68%
E - cure sickness 3* healing 91%
F - cure blindness 2* healing 62%
G - stone to flesh 3* healing 94%
H - cause fear 3* enchantment 94%
I - magic missile 2* attack 68%
J - protection 1* clerical 0%
K - turn undead 6* clerical 100%
L - jumping 1* escape 0%
M - haste self 3* escape 94%
N - dig 5* matter 100%
The Wizard of Yendor (9 times)
Death (255 times)
Pestilence (255 times)
Famine (255 times)
3 high priests
255 iron golems
118 glass golems
48 purple worms
4 gray dragons
12 silver dragons
7 red dragons
4 white dragons
6 black dragons
7 blue dragons
a green dragon
a yellow dragon
Vlad the Impaler
111 stone golems
3 pit fiends
6 hell hounds
a baby silver dragon
a baby orange dragon
a baby black dragon
a baby green dragon
3 baby yellow dragons
48 vampire lords
39 aligned priests
120 clay golems
4 ice devils
25 lurkers above
3 frost giants
3 golden nagas
255 black puddings
a queen bee
25 winged gargoyles
3 mind flayers
18 giant mimics
a fire giant
38 ogre kings
11 ice trolls
16 rock trolls
20 umber hulks
114 flesh golems
13 bone devils
7 large mimics
10 fire vortices
4 baby long worms
7 baby purple worms
13 long worms
111 air elementals
255 fire elementals
86 earth elementals
93 water elementals
a hill giant
8 giant mummies
a black naga
18 giant zombies
11 barbed devils
4 winter wolves
4 hell hound pups
7 small mimics
4 glass piercers
3 steam vortices
2 ettin mummies
12 ogre lords
13 quantum mechanics
6 wood golems
2 electric eels
3 gelatinous cubes
3 large dogs
9 freezing spheres
6 flaming spheres
14 shocking spheres
6 large cats
255 ochre jellies
12 energy vortices
9 mountain centaurs
3 stone giants
2 elf mummies
6 human mummies
2 red nagas
7 pit vipers
11 carnivorous apes
43 ettin zombies
6 leather golems
9 horned devils
64 giant beetles
8 quivering blobs
16 winter wolf cubs
a spotted jelly
2 iron piercers
16 giant spiders
5 ice vortices
11 black lights
13 vampire bats
5 forest centaurs
6 gnome kings
an orc mummy
5 dwarf mummies
51 brown puddings
7 rust monsters
6 gold golems
10 giant eels
8 dwarf lords
79 blue jellies
10 white unicorns
2 gray unicorns
4 black unicorns
14 dust vortices
10 plains centaurs
a gnome mummy
110 human zombies
10 rope golems
71 soldier ants
58 fire ants
9 wood nymphs
9 water nymphs
5 mountain nymphs
14 Mordor orcs
3 orc shamans
7 rock piercers
8 rock moles
8 fog clouds
11 yellow lights
3 violet fungi
26 gnome lords
9 gnomish wizards
5 kobold mummies
a red naga hatchling
a golden naga hatchling
5 gray oozes
6 barrow wights
39 elf zombies
6 straw golems
12 paper golems
55 baby crocodiles
116 giant ants
3 little dogs
18 floating eyes
5 kobold lords
4 kobold shamans
33 hill orcs
3 rabid rats
13 giant bats
33 orc zombies
39 dwarf zombies
88 killer bees
164 acid blobs
4 gas spores
7 large kobolds
11 giant rats
88 cave spiders
2 brown molds
6 yellow molds
3 green molds
4 red molds
12 garter snakes
35 gnome zombies
3 sewer rats
13 grid bugs
43 kobold zombies
7654 creatures vanquished.
Genocided or extinct species:
giant ants (extinct)
acid blobs (extinct)
winter wolf cubs
hell hound pups
master mind flayers
blue jellies (extinct)
ochre jellies (extinct)
baby long worms
baby purple worms
baby gray dragons
baby silver dragons
baby red dragons
baby white dragons
baby orange dragons
baby black dragons
baby blue dragons
baby green dragons
baby yellow dragons
air elementals (extinct)
fire elementals (extinct)
earth elementals (extinct)
water elementals (extinct)
red naga hatchlings
black naga hatchlings
golden naga hatchlings
guardian naga hatchlings
flesh golems (extinct)
clay golems (extinct)
stone golems (extinct)
glass golems (extinct)
iron golems (extinct)
142 species genocided.
22 species extinct.
You genocided 142 types of monsters
You polymorphed 2692 items
You changed form 10 times
You used 50 wishes (Could easily have been much less, even 1 or 0, but
convenience was more important than conduct here, same with the genocides)
Your skills at the end
clerical spells [Basic]
Goodbye Zadir the Priestess...
You died in The Astral Plane with 2147483647 points,
and 9136 pieces of gold, after 716770 moves.
You were level 1 with a maximum of 4140 hit points when you died.
You made the top ten list!
No Points Name Hp
* 1 2147483647 Zadir-Pri-Hum-Fem-Neu died on the Astral Plane.
Killed by overexertion. 4140
2 2003016348 Babamus-Wiz-Hum-Mal-Cha ascended to demigod-hood. 14888
3 179897206 Vector-Tou-Hum-Mal-Neu ascended to demigod-hood. -
What can I say? It's not a journey I'd recommend to even the most hardened
of nethacker, since the tedium is easily replaced by something more
constructive than pushing a 32 bit signed integer to the positive limit, but
it was a good test of resolve.
Thanks to irc.freenode.com's #nethack for all the help, to paxed for putting
up with me, and dtype for allowing thousands of users to drain their free
time this way! (and for putting up with me as well)
Another bit of info for anyone who wants to do something similar, be
cautious of generating more than 32,768 items on one square, as the result
isn't tested, at least to my knowledge. That's about 1424 pages of items on
a 24 row high terminal (23 per page), so keep the number below that however
possible. Lastly, Death is the safest rider to macro that way, since his
attack only reduces health by a small amount if you have magic resist,
whereas the other two can kill you outright in a short period of time.
- John H.
I'm curious. Has this been done before? If so, by who and how often?
Are there any techniques for achieving the highest possible score that
don't involve Rider farming?
Impressive enough to only leave one thing I can say:
"Humans really ARE intelligent animals"
//Remove tämä all the way to and including soomee to mail directly.
//Ascended:W,V (genopolywish),P(ill ath), T,K,H,S,B,C,P,W
(naked),Ro,Ra,A,W,almost pacifist A
> (Yet Another Stylish Suicide)
Thanks for the writeup. That was fun!
> Another bit of info for anyone who wants to do something similar, be
> cautious of generating more than 32,768 items on one square, as the result
> isn't tested, at least to my knowledge.
It has. See the thread containing <slrnd1cf5b...@turtle.stack.nl>.
Uhm, you _really_ wouldn't want to dally with mancubii. The last time I
checked (in Doom 2), they were all grossly overweight...
Congratulations! Quite a fun story.
Remove _NOSPAM to reply by mail
>(Yet Another Stylish Suicide)
>1. Zadir (Pri Hum Fem Neu), killed by overexertion, 2147483647 points,
>HP:4140, Astral Plane, max depth: 49, played on 20050228-20050309, on NH
Congratulations, Zadir, and thanks for doing this on NAO, and letting
us kibitz in freenode!
Now somebody needs to top you by getting that score with an ascension --
won't the calculation be much more difficult?
I think what would be really challenging, though, now that "High" score
is ruined, would be to achieve the theoretical *MINIMUM* score on
ascension. I don't think that's possible, but then, that's been said
about every crazy conduct that's ever been proposed, and I would have
said it about numerous elements in your game had I not witnessed it.
That was fun, Zadir. What's next?
> legopowa wrote:
>> (Yet Another Stylish Suicide)
>> 1. Zadir (Pri Hum Fem Neu), killed by overexertion, 2147483647
>> points, HP:4140, Astral Plane, max depth: 49, played on
>> 20050228-20050309, on NH v3.4.3
>> This lengthy rant roughly outlines one way of getting the highest
>> possible score, within the game's given limits.
> I'm curious. Has this been done before? If so, by who and how often?
Someone actually managed to overflow the score variable durring the 2003
(?) /dev/null tournament by using much the same tactic.
> I think what would be really challenging, though, now that "High" score
> is ruined, would be to achieve the theoretical *MINIMUM* score on
Given what Seraphim said about someone wrapping the score counter in 2003,
the minimum score would be zero.
> legopowa wrote:
>> (Yet Another Stylish Suicide)
>> 1. Zadir (Pri Hum Fem Neu), killed by overexertion, 2147483647
>> HP:4140, Astral Plane, max depth: 49, played on 20050228-20050309, on
>> This lengthy rant roughly outlines one way of getting the highest
>> score, within the game's given limits.
> I'm curious. Has this been done before? If so, by who and how often?
The closest similarity is to eit_brad's attempt, which I borrowed heavily
from. Don't know of any others.
> Are there any techniques for achieving the highest possible score that
> don't involve Rider farming?
Babamus used kraken and (possibly) Asmodeus farming to attain a large chunk
of his little over 1 billion score that was doubled after ascension.
Thank you for for the accolades james! As for what's next, probably a long
hiatus, and then a wishless genoless extinctionist knight perhaps. It'll be
tricky to get an eye of aethiopica with that char without using a wish.
Maybe even one that ascends with 0 points just for kicks.
Not so. It seems that (at least in legopowa's executable) the score is
held in a signed 32-bit integer, which would lead to a minimum score of
-2147483648 in the case of two's complement systems, or -2147483647 for
one's complement and sign- magnitude machines, if NetHack is played on
any of those.
Like playing a "01" darts game, going *over* the score is not as hard as
precisely meeting it.
I'm sure with patience, you can get into any of the "endless play"
situations and bring your score wherever you like. If you go over,
just get another 2 billion.
Even if the counter is changed to unsigned long, it's only good for 4
billion. Beyond that, we run into cross-platform compatability issues.
>Thank you for for the accolades james! As for what's next, probably a long
>hiatus, and then a wishless genoless extinctionist knight perhaps. It'll be
>tricky to get an eye of aethiopica with that char without using a wish.
I'll say! You probably think it's even possible, but I can't imagine how.
I meant, the theoretical minimum score without exploiting any program or
platform bugs. (I consider allowing a value to overflow its limit to be
Bones-stuffing springs to mind, weak as it is, it's possible.
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Gouday, March.
> Quoting james <fish...@conservatory.com>:
>>legopowa <lego...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>Thank you for for the accolades james! As for what's next, probably a long
>>>hiatus, and then a wishless genoless extinctionist knight perhaps. It'll be
>>>tricky to get an eye of aethiopica with that char without using a wish.
>>I'll say! You probably think it's even possible, but I can't imagine how.
> Bones-stuffing springs to mind, weak as it is, it's possible.
Sounds very tedious if it has to be done without wishes even on the
stuffing runs. What if you die and leave no bones? You have to start all
over again, complete the Quest, and die again.
> I'm sure with patience, you can get into any of the "endless play"
> situations and bring your score wherever you like. If you go over,
> just get another 2 billion.
> Even if the counter is changed to unsigned long, it's only good for 4
> billion. Beyond that, we run into cross-platform compatability issues.
You already do with unsigned long, which is 64 bits on some machines, no?
A small, but vocal, contingent even argues that tin is superior, but they
are held by most to be the lunatic fringe of Foil Deflector Beanie science.
> james wrote:
>> I'm sure with patience, you can get into any of the "endless play"
>> situations and bring your score wherever you like. If you go over,
>> just get another 2 billion.
>> Even if the counter is changed to unsigned long, it's only good for
>> 4 billion. Beyond that, we run into cross-platform compatability
> You already do with unsigned long, which is 64 bits on some
> machines, no?
I think that was what he was refering to when he was talking about beyond
I'm sure as you're aware, in terms of storeing integers between 0 and 4
billion a 32 bit unsigned long is just as good as a 64 bit one.
> Benjamin Lewis <bcl...@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
>> james wrote:
>>> I'm sure with patience, you can get into any of the "endless play"
>>> situations and bring your score wherever you like. If you go over,
>>> just get another 2 billion.
>>> Even if the counter is changed to unsigned long, it's only good for
>>> 4 billion. Beyond that, we run into cross-platform compatability
>> You already do with unsigned long, which is 64 bits on some
>> machines, no?
> I think that was what he was refering to when he was talking about beyond
> 4 billion. I'm sure as you're aware, in terms of storeing integers
> between 0 and 4 billion a 32 bit unsigned long is just as good as a 64
> bit one.
Oh I see; I misinterpreted what james said.
I don't see why that would be the case. Someone willing to bones-stuff is
already happy to bend what is reasonable; and, after all, in a normal
wishless game one doesn't complain if one finds unstuffed bones with the
result of wishes.
Even if the stuffing runs were wishless, it would still be possible, which
is my sole contention.
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Chedday, March - a public holiday.