Not getting blasted by and artifact
Qwaszx86
it. I am level 1. What level do I need to be to not get blasted to
death if I pick it up? Also, is it worth having at all, as I'm playing
a ranger?
Sebastian Hungerecker
> On dungeon level 2 I found an antique weapons shop with Dragonbane in
> it. I am level 1. What level do I need to be to not get blasted to
> death if I pick it up?
Dragonbane is unaligned. You won't get blasted at all by it.
If Demonbane were cross-aligned you should have more than 16 hit points
to pick it up. Were it also intelligent, you should have more than 40.
--
"Entjungferung ist blutig und macht Spaß, also ist es Metal. Punkt."
-- Evil_Dragon über die Angebrachtheit des Namens Defloration
für eine Death-Metal-Band
Doug Freyburger
>
> On dungeon level 2 I found an antique weapons shop with Dragonbane in
Dragonbane is a broadsword that does double damage against
any type of dragon but it otherwise a normal braodsword. Think
of it in those terms and you should be able to decide.
Some players like to collect as many artifacts as possible ...
Dylan O'Donnell
> Qwaszx86 wrote:
> > On dungeon level 2 I found an antique weapons shop with Dragonbane in
> > it. I am level 1. What level do I need to be to not get blasted to
> > death if I pick it up?
>
> Dragonbane is unaligned. You won't get blasted at all by it.
Minor note - unless you're polyselfed into a dragon, in which case
there's a 25% chance. But you're probably not (and if you are, you'd
have enough HP in that form to withstand it anyway).
--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "He shall mark our goings, question whence we came, :
: Set his guards about us, as in Freedom's name." :
: -- Rudyard Kipling, "The Old Issue" :
Doug Freyburger
And there are other advantages to getting an artifact as a gift -
Rangers are restricted in broadsword, and finding one in a shop
does not release that restriction. If you get either of the other
broadsword artifacts as a gift to open that skill slot, then it
will be worth carrying maybe. One of the two is a nice artifact,
the other arguably worse than Dragonbane.
So are you neutral or chaotic? If neutral then ignore it.
Jove
Dragonbane only gives benefits against dragons, otherwise it's a plain
broadsword: 5.0 dmg. An elven broadsword will do more damage against
all other monsters: 6.0
Rangers are restricted in broadsword: -2 damage bonus.
Add in strength damage bonus: probably +1
5 + 1 - 2 = 4 points of damage per hit.
Ranger firing expert +2 arrows from a bow:
2.5 arrows averaged *
+ +2 enchantment
+ 3.5 base dmg
+ 2 expert skill bonus
= 2.5 * ( 7.5 ) = 15 damage per firing.
So Dragonbane would do 11 less damage.
But wait, there's more!
The 2.5x multiplier for expert arrows also applies to
- poison dmg bonus: 3.5 * 2.5 = 8.75 more points of damage.
- Ring of increase damage bonus = 2.5 times total bonus
- Further enchantment of the arrows
A +1 ring of increase damage will increase the damage you do with
Dragonbane by 1. That +1 becomes +2.5 for a Ranger firing Expert
arrows.
A b?oEW will average adding 2 points of enchantment. That's two more
points of damage for Dragonbane. That's 5.0 more points of damage for
arrows.
NB: The average damage given by the Artifact selection strategy spoiler:
<http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt> is misleading.
It shows the +7 Longbow of Diana firing Expert +0 arrows = 19.9.
The +0 LoD firing Expert +7 arrows would average 14 more points of
damage: 33.9. An expert Ranger would average 17.5 more points of
damage: 37.4.
--
The above text has been editted to serve my own nefarious ends.
All the best,
Joe "Jove" Bednorz
Doug Freyburger
> Qwaszx86 wrote:
>
> >On dungeon level 2 I found an antique weapons shop with Dragonbane in
> >it. I am level 1. What level do I need to be to not get blasted to
> >death if I pick it up? Also, is it worth having at all, as I'm playing
> >a ranger?
>
> Dragonbane only gives benefits against dragons, otherwise it's a plain
> broadsword: 5.0 dmg. An elven broadsword will do more damage against
> all other monsters: 6.0
And there is an elven broadsword that has benefits against
a class of monsters other than dragons. The better general
damage and the weaker foe monster about evens them out.
If a found artifact isn't automatically rustproof, the wooden
material of the elven broadsword pushes the balance in
favor of that one to me.
> Rangers are restricted in broadsword: -2 damage bonus.
Unless it came as a gift and this one didn't. For a chaotic,
there is one broadsword class weapon that's worth using as
a melee backup to projectile strategy and finding Dragonbane
simply reduces the other options when receiving a gift
artifact.
Jove
>Jove wrote:
>> Qwaszx86 wrote:
>>
>> >On dungeon level 2 I found an antique weapons shop with Dragonbane in
>> >it. I am level 1. What level do I need to be to not get blasted to
>> >death if I pick it up? Also, is it worth having at all, as I'm playing
>> >a ranger?
>>
>> Dragonbane only gives benefits against dragons, otherwise it's a plain
>> broadsword: 5.0 dmg. An elven broadsword will do more damage against
>> all other monsters: 6.0
>
>And there is an elven broadsword that has benefits against
>a class of monsters other than dragons. The better general
>damage and the weaker foe monster about evens them out.
>If a found artifact isn't automatically rustproof, the wooden
>material of the elven broadsword pushes the balance in
>favor of that one to me.
Good point.
>
>> Rangers are restricted in broadsword: -2 damage bonus.
>
>Unless it came as a gift and this one didn't. For a chaotic,
>there is one broadsword class weapon that's worth using as
>a melee backup to projectile strategy and finding Dragonbane
>simply reduces the other options when receiving a gift
>artifact.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
Presuming you mean Stormbringer, it does double damage against
non-level-drain-resistant monsters.
Even basic skill with a damage doubling weapon isn't so great.
The +2 damage bonus from Expert skill would have been doubled to +4.
All but one of the damage doubling weapons do so only against certain
types of monsters. When you lose the x2 is when you really want that +2
Expert damage bonus. (Being Unskilled with an x2 weapon means you'll do
8 less points of damage than if you were Expert.)
This doesn't apply so much to Stormbringer. I just noticed that no
class can get to Expert skill with Stormbringer.
It's the late game where Stormbringer (and the Staff of Aesculapius)
fall down. Demons, the undead, were-creatures and Death are all level
drain resistant. You lose the level drain and the x2 damage just when
you need it most. In terms of damage they're just ordinary weapons
against those monsters. That's when you're glad to have a projectile
strategy as a backup to unreliable melee weapons.
All but one of the x2 weapons is unreliable in this way. Even
Mjollnir becomes ordinary against shock resistant monsters.
Against undead, demons, etc. Stormbringer does about the same damage
as Magicbane. If Magicbane is wielded with higher skill, Magicbane does
more damage against undead, demons, were creatures, and Death.
Doug Freyburger
>
> Presuming you mean Stormbringer, it does double damage against
> non-level-drain-resistant monsters.
It does level-drain which isn't quite the same as double damage
but the effect is roughly the same in extended melee combat so
it evens out.
> Even basic skill with a damage doubling weapon isn't so great.
This could be where level-drain becomes an advantage. Any
successfull hit will drain a level and a +6 Stormy with maxed out
luck never seems to miss.
> It's the late game where Stormbringer (and the Staff of Aesculapius)
> fall down. Demons, the undead, were-creatures and Death are all level
> drain resistant. You lose the level drain and the x2 damage just when
> you need it most. In terms of damage they're just ordinary weapons
> against those monsters. That's when you're glad to have a projectile
> strategy as a backup to unreliable melee weapons.
>
> All but one of the x2 weapons is unreliable in this way. Even
> Mjollnir becomes ordinary against shock resistant monsters.
>
> Against undead, demons, etc. Stormbringer does about the same damage
> as Magicbane. If Magicbane is wielded with higher skill, Magicbane does
> more damage against undead, demons, were creatures, and Death.
Rodney is one of the most dangerous opponents and at one time
he was not immune to level-drain. I haven't checked in a long time
to see if it's still true and I haven't noticed lately. With makes
Stormy have a very ambiguous advantage. This type of ambiguity
is part of why chaotic characters stay interesting in the late game.
Jove
>Jove wrote:
>>
>> Presuming you mean Stormbringer, it does double damage against
>> non-level-drain-resistant monsters.
>
>It does level-drain which isn't quite the same as double damage
>but the effect is roughly the same in extended melee combat so
>it evens out.
You are correct.
>
>> Even basic skill with a damage doubling weapon isn't so great.
>
>This could be where level-drain becomes an advantage. Any
>successfull hit will drain a level and a +6 Stormy with maxed out
>luck never seems to miss.
Good point.
>
>> It's the late game where Stormbringer (and the Staff of Aesculapius)
>> fall down. Demons, the undead, were-creatures and Death are all level
>> drain resistant. You lose the level drain and the x2 damage just when
>> you need it most. In terms of damage they're just ordinary weapons
>> against those monsters. That's when you're glad to have a projectile
>> strategy as a backup to unreliable melee weapons.
>>
>> All but one of the x2 weapons is unreliable in this way. Even
>> Mjollnir becomes ordinary against shock resistant monsters.
>>
>> Against undead, demons, etc. Stormbringer does about the same damage
>> as Magicbane. If Magicbane is wielded with higher skill, Magicbane does
>> more damage against undead, demons, were creatures, and Death.
>
>Rodney is one of the most dangerous opponents and at one time
>he was not immune to level-drain. I haven't checked in a long time
>to see if it's still true and I haven't noticed lately. With makes
>Stormy have a very ambiguous advantage. This type of ambiguity
>is part of why chaotic characters stay interesting in the late game.
It's not ambiguous at all. Stormbringer loses its advantages against
certain monsters. The player knows when to switch to a silver weapon.
Keep a blessed silver saber for use against undead, demons, etc. +d4
blessed damage and +d20 silver damage give an average of 13 points of
damage all by themselves. Strength bonus is free. Enchantment can
help. Skill is almost unnecessary.
This applies to all classes, races, and alignments. It's also why
two-weaponing an artifact and a silver saber is a good idea. It's more
reliable, especially in the late game.
Dragontamer
Jove wrote:
> On 25 Apr 2006 10:45:05 -0700, Qwaszx86 wrote:
>
> >On dungeon level 2 I found an antique weapons shop with Dragonbane in
> >it. I am level 1. What level do I need to be to not get blasted to
> >death if I pick it up? Also, is it worth having at all, as I'm playing
> >a ranger?
>
> Dragonbane only gives benefits against dragons, otherwise it's a plain
> broadsword: 5.0 dmg. An elven broadsword will do more damage against
> all other monsters: 6.0
>
> Rangers are restricted in broadsword: -2 damage bonus.
>
> Add in strength damage bonus: probably +1
>
> 5 + 1 - 2 = 4 points of damage per hit.
>
>
> Ranger firing expert +2 arrows from a bow:
>
> 2.5 arrows averaged *
> + +2 enchantment
> + 3.5 base dmg
> + 2 expert skill bonus
>
> = 2.5 * ( 7.5 ) = 15 damage per firing.
>
> So Dragonbane would do 11 less damage.
Hold up... lemme count.
+1 from default
+1 shot from Ranger bonus.
+2 from Expert skill.
I count 4 arrows from a bow, so a Ranger will shoot 2 arrows on
average. Unless
of course, he is using elvish arrows with an elven bow, but you use
LongBow of Diana
as a later example, so I doubt that.
Nonetheless, 2 * damage multipliers is still awesome. And a quick wiz
mode check
shows that 4 arrows is max when using Longbow of Diana. (although you
get upto
5 arrows with elven arrows on an elvish bow)
> But wait, there's more!
>
> The 2.5x multiplier for expert arrows also applies to
> - poison dmg bonus: 3.5 * 2.5 = 8.75 more points of damage.
> - Ring of increase damage bonus = 2.5 times total bonus
> - Further enchantment of the arrows
>
>
> A +1 ring of increase damage will increase the damage you do with
> Dragonbane by 1. That +1 becomes +2.5 for a Ranger firing Expert
> arrows.
And that +2.5 is a +2 unless you are orc shooting orc arrows with orc
bow (or elvish
arrows on elvish bow as an elf).
> A b?oEW will average adding 2 points of enchantment. That's two more
> points of damage for Dragonbane. That's 5.0 more points of damage for
> arrows.
Again, +4 :-p
> NB: The average damage given by the Artifact selection strategy spoiler:
> <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt> is misleading.
>
> It shows the +7 Longbow of Diana firing Expert +0 arrows = 19.9.
>
> The +0 LoD firing Expert +7 arrows would average 14 more points of
> damage: 33.9. An expert Ranger would average 17.5 more points of
> damage: 37.4.
Make that... wait... yeah, +14 o.O How is your calculation correct
here?
Wow. But wouldn't you lose those arrows when you shoot them?
At least.. I seem to lose my arrows whenever they hit a target. Which
is
why I don't feel like using enchant scrolls on arrows :-/
--Dragontamer
Dragontamer
Dragontamer wrote:
> Hold up... lemme count.
>
> +1 from default
> +1 shot from Ranger bonus.
> +2 from Expert skill.
>
> I count 4 arrows from a bow, so a Ranger will shoot 2 arrows on
> average. Unless
> of course, he is using elvish arrows with an elven bow, but you use
> LongBow of Diana
> as a later example, so I doubt that.
>
> Nonetheless, 2 * damage multipliers is still awesome. And a quick wiz
> mode check
> shows that 4 arrows is max when using Longbow of Diana. (although you
> get upto
> 5 arrows with elven arrows on an elvish bow)
I'm an idiot.
d(4) == average of 2.5.
> > NB: The average damage given by the Artifact selection strategy spoiler:
> > <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt> is misleading.
> >
> > It shows the +7 Longbow of Diana firing Expert +0 arrows = 19.9.
> >
> > The +0 LoD firing Expert +7 arrows would average 14 more points of
> > damage: 33.9. An expert Ranger would average 17.5 more points of
> > damage: 37.4.
>
> Make that... wait... yeah, +14 o.O How is your calculation correct
> here?
Cause d(3) for non-Rangers == average of 2 :-/
Elvish arrows with Elvish bow makes me scared. 0.5 more multiplier. o.O
--Dragontamer
John Campbell
> Wow. But wouldn't you lose those arrows when you shoot them?
>
> At least.. I seem to lose my arrows whenever they hit a target. Which
> is
> why I don't feel like using enchant scrolls on arrows :-/
The odds of losing arrows drop as enchantment increases. If you
can make yourself a good stack of blessed +6 poison arrows, you'll have
a lot of ranged hitting power, and lose very few of them. My last ranger
ascension did this... I #invoked the LoD every so often, whether I
needed to or not (while doing most of my actual fighting with
Stormbringer), and when I had a stack of about 600 uncursed +0 arrows
(courtesy of a wand of cancellation), I blessed, enchanted up, and
poisoned the lot of them all in one go. I left half of them at my stash
(too heavy to carry them all) and ended up never going back for them...
I could've easily gotten by with only a couple hundred.
But that's a late-game-only strategy. In the early game, you're
not going to have enough enchant weapon scrolls to burn, you're not
going to have a big enough stack of arrows to be worth enchanting up, +0
arrows vanish so quickly that if you try to use your bow as your
primary offense, even if you loot every arrow trap you come across,
you'll find pretty quickly that you haven't got any arrows, and doing
the job partway isn't good enough... it only means that you lose the
effect of your enchant weapon scrolls along with the arrows.
And late-game-only strategies are worthless. Late-game
characters are unstoppable juggernauts of doom, to the point that
beating everything to death with an oil lamp is (as I've accidentally
demonstrated a few times) an effective late-game strategy. The trick is
surviving the early game so you can get to the "unstoppable juggernaut
of doom" stage.
--
John Campbell
jcam...@lynn.ci-n.com
Jove
>
>Jove wrote:
>> On 25 Apr 2006 10:45:05 -0700, Qwaszx86 wrote:
>>
>> Ranger firing expert +2 arrows from a bow:
>>
>> 2.5 arrows averaged *
>> + +2 enchantment
>> + 3.5 base dmg
>> + 2 expert skill bonus
>>
>> = 2.5 * ( 7.5 ) = 15 damage per firing.
>>
>> So Dragonbane would do 11 less damage.
>
>Hold up... lemme count.
>
>+1 from default
>+1 shot from Ranger bonus.
>+2 from Expert skill.
>
>I count 4 arrows from a bow, so a Ranger will shoot 2 arrows on
>average.
That's d4, not just 4, arrows. You're missing that the minimum number of
arrows fired is 1. (4+1)/2 is 2.5
The average of d4 is 2.5, BION. Check the weapons spoiler:
(It took me a long time to notice this.)
WEAPON (Table 2) ABCH KMPRaRo STVW +HIT SDAM SAVG LDAM LAVG
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~
morning star : 2d4 5.0 d6+1 4.5
trident : d6+1 4.5 3d4 7.5
bullwhip : d2 1.5 1 1.0
rubber hose : d4 2.5 d3 2.0
crossbow bolt : d4+1 3.5 d6+1 4.5
Every d4 in the table is given an average of 2.5
Over time you'll get an even distribution of 1, 2, 3, and 4. Add all those up
and divide by 4 and you get 2.5. (Or add the min and max and divide by two.)
A d5 averages 3.0
A d6 averages 3.5.
etc.
Roll some dice and figure the average yourself. (Stay away from dice games
until you're convinced. ;^)
>Unless of course, he is using elvish arrows with an elven bow, but you use
>LongBow of Diana as a later example, so I doubt that.
They get d5 arrows per firing, average 3.0.
>
>Nonetheless, 2 * damage multipliers is still awesome.
It's what makes Grayswandir so great. (The difference between Unskilled and
Expert with Grayswandir is 8 points of damage.) Other artifact weapons double
their damage, but only against selected monsters.
Any expert missileer gets it as well, 2.0 damage. Haven't you seen my sig
about throwing Expert daggers being the equivalent of twoweaponing wearing a
shield?
>And a quick wiz mode check shows that 4 arrows is max when using Longbow of
>Diana.
You're missing out that you'll always fire at least one arrow.
Min + max = 1 + 4 = 5. Divide by two and get 2.5
>(although you get upto 5 arrows with elven arrows on an elvish bow)
>
Which is d5, averaging to 3.
>
>> But wait, there's more!
>>
>> The 2.5x multiplier for expert arrows also applies to
>> - poison dmg bonus: 3.5 * 2.5 = 8.75 more points of damage.
>> - Ring of increase damage bonus = 2.5 times total bonus
>> - Further enchantment of the arrows
>>
>>
>> A +1 ring of increase damage will increase the damage you do with
>> Dragonbane by 1. That +1 becomes +2.5 for a Ranger firing Expert
>> arrows.
>
>And that +2.5 is a +2 unless you are orc shooting orc arrows with orc
>bow (or elvish arrows on elvish bow as an elf).
Again, it is 2.5. (3.0 for all-elven Rangers).
>
>> A b?oEW will average adding 2 points of enchantment. That's two more
>> points of damage for Dragonbane. That's 5.0 more points of damage for
>> arrows.
>
>Again, +4 :-p
Nope, still +5. (+6 for all-Elven Rangers.)
>
>> NB: The average damage given by the Artifact selection strategy spoiler:
>> <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt> is misleading.
>>
>> It shows the +7 Longbow of Diana firing Expert +0 arrows = 19.9.
>>
>> The +0 LoD firing Expert +7 arrows would average 14 more points of
>> damage: 33.9. An expert Ranger would average 17.5 more points of
>> damage: 37.4.
>
>Make that... wait... yeah, +14 o.O How is your calculation correct
>here?
The average damage the Artifact Selection Strategy spoiler's gives is for
Demons. (Don't ask me why. It favors silver weapons outrageously.) The
weapons are assumed to be blessed, which gives an extra d4 damage per hit.
Furthermore, it assumes the Longbow of Diana is being used by a Ranger.
(Which seems not unreasonable.)
That's 7 more damage per hit for being enchanted to +7. 2 hits times 7 =
14. A Ranger would get 2.5 hits times 7 = 17.5
(I'm so glad someone's finally checking my figures. These calculations are
finicky.)
>
>Wow. But wouldn't you lose those arrows when you shoot them?
Sometimes. That's why Rangers start with 80-100 arrows. It's use them or
lose them. Better luck and enchantment helps prevent loss. So does blessing
them.
To make up for the potential losses you can poison arrows. d6 worth of damage
= 3.5 average. You'll also get poison instakills! "The poison was deadly"
indeed. The sheer joy of getting that message for other monsters instead of
your character....
Replenishment:
- (Dead) monster's inventory.
- Arrow traps.
- Death drops.
- Weapon and armor shops.
- The Longbow of Diana can be #invoked to get more arrows.
From art1-343.txt:
Longbow of Diana
Invoked
Creates 7-16 uncursed arrows if uncursed,
7-21 blessed arrows if blessed,
6-11 cursed arrows if cursed.
I know the optimum invocation interval is every 75 turns. How often it
actually succeeds is another question. Does anyone know the average turns
between successes with that strategy?
By the end game you'll easily have hundreds of arrows to cancel, mass-bless,
mass-poison, and mass-enchant. Polypiling other weapons may give you silver
arrows. Expert Ranger silver arrows against silver hating monsters makes
Grayswandir turn green with envy.
>
>At least.. I seem to lose my arrows whenever they hit a target. Which
>is why I don't feel like using enchant scrolls on arrows :-/
>
All of the following will lower your loss rate. (Just enchanting to +7 will
have a significant effect AIUI):
- Get the luckstone
- Improve your luck.
- gems to co-aligned unicorns
- sacrifice on co-aligned altar
- Bless them.
- Enchanting them lowers the loss rate.
Improving your luck at an altar even before getting the luckstone seems
worthwhile. Using found arrows, especially orcish, as "fire and forget" seems
reasonable. (Even +0 orcish arrows average 3 points of damage. Add the 2
points for expert skill and multiply by 2.5 and that's 12.5 per firing.) Save
the +2 starting arrows for critical situations.
--
2.5-weapon! Expert elven non-Rangers using elven bows/arrows, non-elven Rangers
using any missile weapon, and Rogues using daggers can average 2.5 hits per
turn, near or far. Just one skill to #enhance, and you can wear a shield.
All the Best, Jove the Missileer (Joe Bednorz)