gold dragons

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Haakon Studebaker

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Apr 3, 2004, 12:23:24 PM4/3/04
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Just like regular dragons except when you kill them they drop zorkmids
which happen to be their scales. Since they're dragons and larger than
golems the amount of gold they would drop would be more considerable than
killing a gold golem. These dragons would always be generated as peaceful
when playing a lawful character and sometimes peaceful for neutral.

Sidsel Horvei

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Apr 3, 2004, 2:30:27 PM4/3/04
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Actually I was thinking about gold dragons the other day - scales and
scale mail acting as a permanent light source. Like a magic lamp without
the wish. (Or maybe scale mail able to be rubbed once and once only?
Should be a rare dragon type then.) Breath weapon would be lightning of
course.

Sidsel
--
************************************************************
Web page: http://www.ii.uib.no/~sidsel/
I don't want to be right; I want to _get_ it right.
*************************************************************

Fitzdraco

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Apr 3, 2004, 2:04:18 PM4/3/04
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"Sidsel Horvei" <sid...@ii.uib.no> wrote in message
news:slrnc6u5gg...@apal.ii.uib.no...


> On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 17:23:24 -0000, Haakon Studebaker wrote:
> > Just like regular dragons except when you kill them they drop zorkmids
> > which happen to be their scales. Since they're dragons and larger than
> > golems the amount of gold they would drop would be more considerable
than
> > killing a gold golem. These dragons would always be generated as
peaceful
> > when playing a lawful character and sometimes peaceful for neutral.
>
> Actually I was thinking about gold dragons the other day - scales and
> scale mail acting as a permanent light source. Like a magic lamp without
> the wish. (Or maybe scale mail able to be rubbed once and once only?
> Should be a rare dragon type then.) Breath weapon would be lightning of
> course.
>
> Sidsel
> --

If your going by traditional sources. In this case D&D which I think
invented the idea of colored dragons with there breath dependent on there
color then you need to give them fire breath.


Eric Snyder II

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Apr 3, 2004, 11:55:23 PM4/3/04
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"Fitzdraco" <fitz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<106u9hp...@corp.supernews.com>...

> "Sidsel Horvei" <sid...@ii.uib.no> wrote in message
> news:slrnc6u5gg...@apal.ii.uib.no...
Breath weapon would be lightning of
> > course.
> >
> > Sidsel
> > --
> If your going by traditional sources. In this case D&D which I think
> invented the idea of colored dragons with there breath dependent on there
> color then you need to give them fire breath.

Er.

color D&D NH
red fire fire
orange N/E sleep
yellow N/E acid
green acid poison
blue shock shock
black acid disint
white cold cold
grey N/E missile
silver cold/paral cold
gold fire/weaken N/E
copper acid/slow N/E
brass fire/sleep N/E
bronze shock/repuls N/E

Of the six colors which overlap at all, three match between D&D and
NH, one is half right, and two are changed. And, of course, three
colors exist in NH that don't exist in D&D, and four the other way.

I think it would be safe to not go by traditional sources necessarily
:)

AdaJe5

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Apr 4, 2004, 3:36:54 AM4/4/04
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There are orange and yellow dragons in D&D. Also a purple one which is a very
cool dragon. There is also a grey dragon. Come to think of it there are nearly
a hundred different dragons of any color, metal, or crystal that comes readily
to mind.

Haakon Studebaker

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Apr 4, 2004, 1:01:59 PM4/4/04
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It's an interesting book and I believe that it's out of print. My copy's
from the early nineties printed by TSR not WotC.
The dragons which occur in unusual colors are hybrids. Gray dragons come
from a mixing of black and white dragons. Purple dragons come from proud
parents who happen to be a blue and red dragon who decided to get busy one
lonely night. The powers of the various hybrid offspring tend to be a mix
of the parents. Also introduced were the gem dragons who were neutral
compared to the evil of chromatics and virtue of metallics.

Last night I decided to go through the Nethack source hoping to find the
code for gold golems (for the gold dropping instead of a corpse) and
dragons (just for the framework) and couldn't find it. Could someone point
me in the right direction? I looked in monst.c and found some stuff but I
didn't find the bit about the gold golem's gold dropping corpse. I'd like
to make a gold dragon even if I need some hand-holding.

Pasi Kallinen

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Apr 4, 2004, 1:08:14 PM4/4/04
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Haakon Studebaker <hept...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Last night I decided to go through the Nethack source hoping to find the
> code for gold golems (for the gold dropping instead of a corpse) and
> dragons (just for the framework) and couldn't find it. Could someone point
> me in the right direction? I looked in monst.c and found some stuff but I
> didn't find the bit about the gold golem's gold dropping corpse. I'd like
> to make a gold dragon even if I need some hand-holding.

See function make_corpse() in src/mon.c

--
---------------------+---------------------------------------------
Pasi Kallinen |"That's what the boys are there for." -Hitler
pka...@cs.joensuu.fi |SciFiFantasyHorrorBooks|Magic:tG|Nethack|RPGs

nikolai kingsley

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Apr 4, 2004, 1:23:08 PM4/4/04
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> I'd like to make a gold dragon even if I need some hand-holding.


don't forget to include a very small chance of providing a ring of
invisibility with the dragon's destruction, as well as the gold. with a
comment like "Didn't you see this ring hanging around some short guy's neck
once?"

nikolai
--
heh. Jabberwok is going to
kill me for that.


Panu Lahtinen

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Apr 4, 2004, 2:04:58 PM4/4/04
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"nikolai kingsley" <nik...@broadway.net.au> writes:

>> I'd like to make a gold dragon even if I need some hand-holding.
>
>
> don't forget to include a very small chance of providing a ring of
> invisibility with the dragon's destruction, as well as the gold. with a
> comment like "Didn't you see this ring hanging around some short guy's neck
> once?"

And a cursed one, of course.

--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"

Jon Champion

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Apr 4, 2004, 2:19:30 PM4/4/04
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e...@mail.com (Eric Snyder II) wrote in message news:<b2982046.04040...@posting.google.com>...

> "Fitzdraco" <fitz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:
>
> Er.
> [snip]
>
> I think it would be safe to not go by traditional sources necessarily
> :)

What about the dragons from Heroes of Might and Magic? (I'm somewhat
partial to it, as that's where I originally got my interest in magic
strategy games.)
Just in dragons, there could be the Crystal Dragons, which don't fly,
but are incredibly strong, maybe disintegration resistant, always
leave scales, and perhaps some random gems, but no corpse.
Azure Dragons could paralyze you with fear from their breath attack,
unless you have the appropriate characteristics of free action, etc.,
and would grant some sort of free action or paralysis resistance by
eating the corpse. (No clue about what scales would do :^( )
Ghost Dragons could "age" you, reducing your hit points, strength and
constitution (temporarily), but having one as a pet could grant
conflict, or scare some types monsters.

Was there ever a Hydra or cyclops in the game?
One other critter in those games was the Gorgon, or as a friend of
mine would say, "the amazing technicolor bull". It had a special
attack in that one in 10 shots would be a "death stare" kinda like
finger of death, from what I've heard here. You'd definitely need
cancellation or reflection before you start handling those boogers.

Haakon Studebaker

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Apr 4, 2004, 2:31:38 PM4/4/04
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There could be undead dragons who are just animate skeletons or just bones
covered in ragged flesh which never, ever drop scales but could drop bones
that could be enchanted into weapons. Instead of having elemental breath
they would simply vomit up rancid blood from the elemental plane of
somethingrather.
Of course this requires some assumptions on the part of the player or
programmer regarding the nature of draconic souls.

E

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Apr 4, 2004, 2:34:51 PM4/4/04
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On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 11:19:30 -0700, Jon Champion wrote:

>
> Was there ever a Hydra or cyclops in the game?

The cyclops is the quest nemesis of the healer class:

MON("Cyclops", S_GIANT,
LVL(18, 12, 0, 0, -15), (G_NOGEN|G_UNIQ),
A(ATTK(AT_WEAP, AD_PHYS, 4, 8), ATTK(AT_WEAP, AD_PHYS, 4, 8),
ATTK(AT_CLAW, AD_SAMU, 2, 6), NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK),
SIZ(1900, 700, 0, MS_NEMESIS, MZ_HUGE), MR_STONE, 0,
M1_HUMANOID|M1_OMNIVORE,
M2_NOPOLY|M2_GIANT|M2_STRONG|M2_ROCKTHROW|M2_STALK|M2_HOSTILE|
M2_NASTY|M2_MALE|M2_JEWELS|M2_COLLECT,
M3_WANTSARTI|M3_WAITFORU|M3_INFRAVISION|M3_INFRAVISIBLE, CLR_GRAY),

E

Janis Papanagnou

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Apr 4, 2004, 3:55:25 PM4/4/04
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Jon Champion wrote:
>
> Was there ever a Hydra or cyclops in the game?

Hydra has been proposed but is no living part of NH, though you might
see it when you are hallucinating.

Cyclops is the healers quest nemesis.

> One other critter in those games was the Gorgon, or as a friend of

Have you ever been around level 25? There you will find the one of
the three Gorgones that is/was mortal.

> mine would say, "the amazing technicolor bull". It had a special
> attack in that one in 10 shots would be a "death stare" kinda like

Medusa has a 100% success rate if you are not appropriately equipped.

> finger of death, from what I've heard here. You'd definitely need
> cancellation or reflection before you start handling those boogers.

Janis

rekrutacja

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Apr 4, 2004, 7:21:04 PM4/4/04
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Użytkownik nikolai kingsley napisał:

>>I'd like to make a gold dragon even if I need some hand-holding.

> don't forget to include a very small chance of providing a ring of
> invisibility with the dragon's destruction, as well as the gold. with a
> comment like "Didn't you see this ring hanging around some short guy's neck
> once?"

That's a nice idea, but ring should be _gold_ in NH.

rekrutacja

Jon Champion

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Apr 4, 2004, 6:37:41 PM4/4/04
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"nikolai kingsley" <nik...@broadway.net.au> wrote in message news:<c4pfrn$2lr2co$1...@ID-193832.news.uni-berlin.de>...

>
> don't forget to include a very small chance of providing a ring of
> invisibility with the dragon's destruction, as well as the gold. with a
> comment like "Didn't you see this ring hanging around some short guy's neck
> once?"
>
> nikolai

I'm lost, what does that come from? It sounds like it should be
Tolkein, but I'm at a loss to what it could be.

--
I'm here. Just follow the trail of loser dust.

Owen Jacobson

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Apr 4, 2004, 6:56:39 PM4/4/04
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On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 15:37:41 -0700, Jon Champion wrote:

> "nikolai kingsley" <nik...@broadway.net.au> wrote...


>>
>> don't forget to include a very small chance of providing a ring of
>> invisibility with the dragon's destruction, as well as the gold. with a
>> comment like "Didn't you see this ring hanging around some short guy's
>> neck once?"
>

> I'm lost, what does that come from? It sounds like it should be
> Tolkein, but I'm at a loss to what it could be.

Gur Uboovg. Ovyob[1] Onttvaf ndhverf gur Bar Evat nf ybbg sebz n
qentba'f pnpur. HTH, HAND, etc.

[1] That's a pretty damn good rot-ism, there.

--
Some say the Wired doesn't have political borders like the real world,
but there are far too many nonsense-spouting anarchists or idiots who
think that pranks are a revolution.

Janis Papanagnou

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Apr 4, 2004, 7:03:50 PM4/4/04
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Jon Champion wrote:
> "nikolai kingsley" <nik...@broadway.net.au> wrote in message news:<c4pfrn$2lr2co$1...@ID-193832.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>don't forget to include a very small chance of providing a ring of
>>invisibility with the dragon's destruction, as well as the gold. with a
>>comment like "Didn't you see this ring hanging around some short guy's neck
>>once?"
>
> I'm lost, what does that come from? It sounds like it should be
> Tolkein, but I'm at a loss to what it could be.

Well, I cannot speek for Nikolais thoughts, but...

Tolkien: "The Hobbit"
Bilbo found a ring of invisibility in Gollums cave on the way to a
dragon. The dragon was defeated with help from that ring property
and they collected the dragons treasure.

Tolkien: "The Lord of the Rings"
Frodo, a descendent of Bilbo inherits that ring from Bilbo and has
the task to destroy the ring in Mordor. On his way he carried the
ring as necklet around his neck.

The way that these stories are connected to the proposed "comment"
is beyond my comprehension. There seems to be some logical break.
But maybe Nikolais can explain that.

Janis

Janis Papanagnou

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Apr 4, 2004, 7:11:02 PM4/4/04
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Owen Jacobson wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 15:37:41 -0700, Jon Champion wrote:
>
>>"nikolai kingsley" <nik...@broadway.net.au> wrote...
>>
>>>don't forget to include a very small chance of providing a ring of
>>>invisibility with the dragon's destruction, as well as the gold. with a
>>>comment like "Didn't you see this ring hanging around some short guy's
>>>neck once?"
>>
>>I'm lost, what does that come from? It sounds like it should be
>>Tolkein, but I'm at a loss to what it could be.
>
> Gur Uboovg. Ovyob[1] Onttvaf ndhverf gur Bar Evat nf ybbg sebz n
> qentba'f pnpur. HTH, HAND, etc.

I think this is not correct. He found the One Ring in Gollums cave.
The dragon had other treasure, e.g. the "Arkenjuwel" (in the german
translation; I don't know the english term), and much more ordinary
treasure.

> [1] That's a pretty damn good rot-ism, there.

Janis

Seraphim

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Apr 4, 2004, 9:53:24 PM4/4/04
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Owen Jacobson <angs...@lionsanctuary.net> wrote in
news:pan.2004.04.04....@lionsanctuary.net:

> Jon Champion wrote:


>> Nikolai Kingsley wrote:
>>>
>>> don't forget to include a very small chance of providing a ring of
>>> invisibility with the dragon's destruction, as well as the gold.
>>> with a comment like "Didn't you see this ring hanging around some
>>> short guy's neck once?"
>>
>> I'm lost, what does that come from? It sounds like it should be
>> Tolkein, but I'm at a loss to what it could be.
>

> Gur Uboovg. Ovyob Onttvaf ndhverf gur Bar Evat nf ybbg sebz n
> qentba'f pnpur.

No, Bilbo found the the ring when he was in Gollums cave.

Haakon Studebaker

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Apr 4, 2004, 10:05:08 PM4/4/04
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Okay, I have a rough layout.
Gold dragons are generated peaceful for lawfuls and neutrals. Hostile for
chaotics. When killed there's a 30% chance that they will drop lots of
zorkmids since zorkmids are their scales. The amount dropped is between
300-1000 zorkmids. Gold dragons shine and light their way much like a
yellow or black light. If an adventurer eats the corpse of a gold dragon
there's a 50% chance of gaining the see invisible intrinsic giving either
the message of "You see an image of someone stalking you" or "Your vision
becomes clear." Gold dragons can see invisible and by whatever mystical
light that shines from their scales gives form to the invisible and it's
conferred to the eater. Plus it'd be silly and require more work to have an
intrinsic where someone can glow.
Comments?

Owen Jacobson

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Apr 4, 2004, 10:37:47 PM4/4/04
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On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 01:11:02 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> I think this is not correct. He found the One Ring in Gollums cave.
> The dragon had other treasure, e.g. the "Arkenjuwel" (in the german
> translation; I don't know the english term), and much more ordinary
> treasure.

And now you know what happens when you botch a lore roll on usenet.

Artemis the Ranger

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Apr 5, 2004, 12:23:14 AM4/5/04
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Owen Jacobson <angs...@lionsanctuary.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.04.04....@lionsanctuary.net>...

> On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 15:37:41 -0700, Jon Champion wrote:
>
> > "nikolai kingsley" <nik...@broadway.net.au> wrote...
> >>
> >> don't forget to include a very small chance of providing a ring of
> >> invisibility with the dragon's destruction, as well as the gold. with a
> >> comment like "Didn't you see this ring hanging around some short guy's
> >> neck once?"
> >
> > I'm lost, what does that come from? It sounds like it should be
> > Tolkein, but I'm at a loss to what it could be.
>
> Gur Uboovg. Ovyob[1] Onttvaf ndhverf gur Bar Evat nf ybbg sebz n
> qentba'f pnpur. HTH, HAND, etc.

Avpr gel, ohg abg dhvgr pbeerpg. Ur qbrf *abg* trg vg sebz Fznht'f
pnpur, ur svaqf vg va Tbyyhz'f pnir (juvpu vf abjurer arne gur
qentba'f ubneq.) Fbeel.

Artemis the Ranger

Fitzdraco

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Apr 4, 2004, 10:56:47 PM4/4/04
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"Artemis the Ranger" <wcris...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5bfc5f.04040...@posting.google.com...

To be fair and there is a spoiler here and I can't ROT.

He does use the ring in the lair.


Fitzdraco

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Apr 4, 2004, 11:01:47 PM4/4/04
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"Janis Papanagnou" <Janis_Pa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c4pp7j$jsr$1...@online.de...

I think he was speaking of the D&D style gorgon which was essentialy a bull
that had a stoning breath. I believe that is where the idea came from for
HoMaM. I do not know where TSR got the idea. Hydra could be cool, but it
could also be a very nasty unique. You would need flamebrand and be lucky
with vorpal blade to kill it.


Tobias Wolter

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Apr 5, 2004, 4:29:10 AM4/5/04
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On 2004-04-05, Fitzdraco wrote:
> I think he was speaking of the D&D style gorgon which was essentialy a bull
> that had a stoning breath. I believe that is where the idea came from for
> HoMaM. I do not know where TSR got the idea.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/gorgons.html
--
Legacy (adj): an uncomplimentary computer-industry epithet that
means 'it works'.
- Anthony DeBoer

Tobias Wolter

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Apr 5, 2004, 4:38:50 AM4/5/04
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On 2004-04-04, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> The way that these stories are connected to the proposed "comment"
> is beyond my comprehension. There seems to be some logical break.
> But maybe Nikolais can explain that.

You can not justify not using the ring in the game just because it was
destroyed after the course of Frodo carrying it.

Perseus killed Medusa, the Nazgul were never in some stupid creepy dun-
geon, and on and on and on..

Thus, "seen hanging around a small one's neck" is just a hint, because
(by know) most people know Tolkien, albeit many only due to the movies.
Even there, Frodo was carrying the ring in a chain around his neck.

David Damerell

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Apr 5, 2004, 7:17:03 AM4/5/04
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Haakon Studebaker <hept...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Gold dragons can see invisible and by whatever mystical
>light that shines from their scales gives form to the invisible and it's
>conferred to the eater. Plus it'd be silly and require more work to have an
>intrinsic where someone can glow.

Er, ever wielded Sunsword?
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!

Fitzdraco

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Apr 5, 2004, 8:20:41 AM4/5/04
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"Tobias Wolter" <to...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote in message
news:slrnc7265...@loki.ydal.de...


> On 2004-04-05, Fitzdraco wrote:
> > I think he was speaking of the D&D style gorgon which was essentialy a
bull
> > that had a stoning breath. I believe that is where the idea came from
for
> > HoMaM. I do not know where TSR got the idea.
>
> http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/gorgons.html
> --

First thanks for the link. I'm always interested in that sort of thing.

I know that the gorgons were the 3 sisters out of greek mythology with snake
hair. But TSR put a monster in there game that was bull that had a stoning
breath. They also had medusa. So while related and TSR stole the name they
are not the same thing.


Seraph

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Apr 5, 2004, 10:28:04 AM4/5/04
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Tobias Wolter <to...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote in message news:<slrnc7265...@loki.ydal.de>...
> On 2004-04-05, Fitzdraco wrote:
> > I think he was speaking of the D&D style gorgon which was essentialy a bull
> > that had a stoning breath. I believe that is where the idea came from for
> > HoMaM. I do not know where TSR got the idea.
>
> http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/gorgons.html

Other then the stoneing feature, there really is nothing similar
bewteen an AD&D Gorgon and the Greek Gorgon. One is a bull-like
creature that can stone things by breathing on them, the other is a
humanoid that has snakes for hair.

Richard Bos

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Apr 5, 2004, 11:25:32 AM4/5/04
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"Fitzdraco" <fitz...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Janis Papanagnou" <Janis_Pa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c4pp7j$jsr$1...@online.de...
> > Jon Champion wrote:
> >
> > > One other critter in those games was the Gorgon, or as a friend of
> >
> > Have you ever been around level 25? There you will find the one of
> > the three Gorgones that is/was mortal.
> >

> I think he was speaking of the D&D style gorgon which was essentialy a bull
> that had a stoning breath.

Sounds like a muddled Catoblepas to me.

Richard

Janis Papanagnou

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Apr 5, 2004, 1:16:32 PM4/5/04
to
Tobias Wolter wrote:
> On 2004-04-04, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>>The way that these stories are connected to the proposed "comment"
>>is beyond my comprehension. There seems to be some logical break.
>>But maybe Nikolais can explain that.
>
> You can not justify not using the ring in the game just because it was
> destroyed after the course of Frodo carrying it.

Huh?? - I don't justify anything. And didn't say so.

There simply is an *unnecessary* logical break in that "comment".

I assume it's because of a supposed misattribution of the ring to
the dragons treasure; at least *if* that was the OPs tought *then*
I understand why he has chosen it. Otherwise the "comment" would
be IMO very badly chosen, you could find a better one without a
logical break.

Why have some gold dragon leave a ring? Why not any hobbit, which
would make much more sense. You, of course, don't *need* to be
logical with any inventions, but it's much more appealing to be.

Janis

Fitzdraco

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Apr 5, 2004, 11:21:58 AM4/5/04
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"Richard Bos" <r...@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote in message
news:40717a3d....@news.individual.net...

It had one of those as well. Don't know what the souce is on the Catoblepas,
but in the game they were a low sitting large quadraped that had an
extremely long neck with a big head. If it could gather it's strength to
lift its head it's gaze would kill you. No stoning.


Jon Champion

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Apr 5, 2004, 1:25:55 PM4/5/04
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"Fitzdraco" <fitz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1071psv...@corp.supernews.com>...

> "Janis Papanagnou" <Janis_Pa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c4pp7j$jsr$1...@online.de...
> I think he was speaking of the D&D style gorgon which was essentialy a bull
> that had a stoning breath. I believe that is where the idea came from for
> HoMaM.

That's what I had in mind. I'm familiar with the Greek "Gorgon" as
well, I just didn't think about that doubled term before I posted.

> Hydra could be cool, but it
> could also be a very nasty unique. You would need flamebrand and be lucky
> with vorpal blade to kill it.

You think there could be a spell of fire, or use scrolls of fire to do
the appropriate damage? As I recall, Hercules burned the heads after
he cut them off. If there was few turns (like troll regeneration)
before regrowth, you could have a fighting chance at zapping them
appropriately.
I've never encountered Vorpal Blade (like chaotics too much), but from
what I've read, I wish I had.

--
YANI: A duck as a level 1 monster or pet. Can swim, fly, lay eggs,
and is very fast. If you chat with it while hallucinating, it shouts,
"AF-LAC!"

Dylan O'Donnell

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Apr 5, 2004, 1:43:14 PM4/5/04
to
Haakon Studebaker <hept...@yahoo.com> writes:
> Last night I decided to go through the Nethack source hoping to find the
> code for gold golems (for the gold dropping instead of a corpse) and
> dragons (just for the framework) and couldn't find it. Could someone point
> me in the right direction? I looked in monst.c and found some stuff but I
> didn't find the bit about the gold golem's gold dropping corpse. I'd like
> to make a gold dragon even if I need some hand-holding.

mon.c, make_corpse().

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "The sun has gone. It must be brought. You have a rock." :
: -- Dan Schmidt, "For a Change" :

Fitzdraco

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Apr 5, 2004, 1:23:02 PM4/5/04
to

"Jon Champion" <genes...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3b4fc546.04040...@posting.google.com...


> "Fitzdraco" <fitz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<1071psv...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > "Janis Papanagnou" <Janis_Pa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:c4pp7j$jsr$1...@online.de...
> > I think he was speaking of the D&D style gorgon which was essentialy a
bull
> > that had a stoning breath. I believe that is where the idea came from
for
> > HoMaM.
>
> That's what I had in mind. I'm familiar with the Greek "Gorgon" as
> well, I just didn't think about that doubled term before I posted.
>
> > Hydra could be cool, but it
> > could also be a very nasty unique. You would need flamebrand and be
lucky
> > with vorpal blade to kill it.
>
> You think there could be a spell of fire, or use scrolls of fire to do
> the appropriate damage? As I recall, Hercules burned the heads after
> he cut them off. If there was few turns (like troll regeneration)
> before regrowth, you could have a fighting chance at zapping them
> appropriately.
> I've never encountered Vorpal Blade (like chaotics too much), but from
> what I've read, I wish I had.

Well from what I remember, and the last version I played was the Y2K update
vorpal wasn't all that and a bag of chips. Yes you had a small chance to
decapitate a monster, but I wouldn't want to rely on it. Of course it was
nice for Jaberwokies.


Tobias Wolter

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Apr 5, 2004, 5:57:29 PM4/5/04
to
On 2004-04-05, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> Why have some gold dragon leave a ring? Why not any hobbit, which
> would make much more sense. You, of course, don't *need* to be
> logical with any inventions, but it's much more appealing to be.

Imagine Smaug having munched Bilbo.

Tobias Wolter

unread,
Apr 5, 2004, 5:58:07 PM4/5/04
to
On 2004-04-05, Fitzdraco wrote:
> I know that the gorgons were the 3 sisters out of greek mythology with snake
> hair. But TSR put a monster in there game that was bull that had a stoning
> breath. They also had medusa. So while related and TSR stole the name they
> are not the same thing.

Other recitations give them leathery skin and tusks and such.

Janis Papanagnou

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Apr 5, 2004, 7:09:32 PM4/5/04
to
Tobias Wolter wrote:
> On 2004-04-05, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>>Why have some gold dragon leave a ring? Why not any hobbit, which
>>would make much more sense. You, of course, don't *need* to be
>>logical with any inventions, but it's much more appealing to be.
>
> Imagine Smaug having munched Bilbo.

Yes that is exactly what I've talked about: then the "comment"
referring to Frodo would make no sense. Go find a better one!
For the glory of Nethack :-)

Janis

Tobias Wolter

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Apr 6, 2004, 1:59:28 AM4/6/04
to
On 2004-04-05, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> Tobias Wolter wrote:
> > On 2004-04-05, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> >> Why have some gold dragon leave a ring? Why not any hobbit, which
> >> would make much more sense. You, of course, don't *need* to be
> >> logical with any inventions, but it's much more appealing to be.
> > Imagine Smaug having munched Bilbo.
> Yes that is exactly what I've talked about: then the "comment"
> referring to Frodo would make no sense. Go find a better one!

Ah. My lack of logic is gaining on me, quite fast.

> For the glory of Nethack :-)

The glory of the flesh, the glory of the many!

Boudewijn Waijers

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Apr 6, 2004, 4:19:55 AM4/6/04
to
Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> I think this is not correct. He found the One Ring in Gollums cave.
> The dragon had other treasure, e.g. the "Arkenjuwel" (in the german
> translation; I don't know the english term), and much more ordinary
> treasure.

It's called the Arkenstone.

And why would a gold dragon remember Bilbo? After all, Smaug was killed by
Bard.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

"In NetHack, there is no evil. Only chaos." -- Me, on rgrn.

Dylan O'Donnell

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Apr 6, 2004, 4:57:17 AM4/6/04
to
"Boudewijn Waijers" <kro...@REMOVETHIS.home.nl> writes:
> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> > I think this is not correct. He found the One Ring in Gollums cave.
> > The dragon had other treasure, e.g. the "Arkenjuwel" (in the german
> > translation; I don't know the english term), and much more ordinary
> > treasure.
>
> It's called the Arkenstone.

Which, as a random point of interest, was implemented in Osku Salerma's
dwarf patch as the Quest Artifact for the Dwarf class (long before they
became implemented as a race; incorporated, with modifications, in
older versions of SLASH'EM).

Bob the Smurf

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Apr 8, 2004, 3:54:36 PM4/8/04
to
Tobias Wolter <to...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote in message news:<slrnc73lh...@loki.ydal.de>...

> On 2004-04-05, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> > Why have some gold dragon leave a ring? Why not any hobbit, which
> > would make much more sense. You, of course, don't *need* to be
> > logical with any inventions, but it's much more appealing to be.
>
> Imagine Smaug having munched Bilbo.

But why a *gold* dragon in particular? Wasn't Smaug black? Or why not just any
old dragon?
--
And everything under the sun is in tune,
But the sun is eclipsed by the moon.
--Pink Floyd
Dark Side of the Moon

Tobias Wolter

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Apr 8, 2004, 5:02:46 PM4/8/04
to
On 2004-04-08, Bob the Smurf wrote:
> Tobias Wolter <to...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote in message news:<slrnc73lh...@loki.ydal.de>...
> > On 2004-04-05, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> > > Why have some gold dragon leave a ring? Why not any hobbit, which
> > > would make much more sense. You, of course, don't *need* to be
> > > logical with any inventions, but it's much more appealing to be.
> > Imagine Smaug having munched Bilbo.
> But why a *gold* dragon in particular? Wasn't Smaug black? Or why not just any
> old dragon?

Smaug was black, indeed.
Probably because gold dragons especially rise associations to the
actualy material called `gold'? The Ring was golden.

What the hell, I don't know about the OP's intentions.

David Corbett

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Apr 8, 2004, 5:33:55 PM4/8/04
to
Tobias Wolter wrote:
> On 2004-04-08, Bob the Smurf wrote:
>
>>Tobias Wolter <to...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote in message news:<slrnc73lh...@loki.ydal.de>...
>>
>>>On 2004-04-05, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>>
>>>>Why have some gold dragon leave a ring? Why not any hobbit, which
>>>>would make much more sense. You, of course, don't *need* to be
>>>>logical with any inventions, but it's much more appealing to be.
>>>
>>>Imagine Smaug having munched Bilbo.
>>
>>But why a *gold* dragon in particular? Wasn't Smaug black? Or why not just any
>>old dragon?
>
> Smaug was black, indeed.
> Probably because gold dragons especially rise associations to the
> actualy material called `gold'? The Ring was golden.
>
> What the hell, I don't know about the OP's intentions.

Smaug was described as "red-golden". He was known as "Smaug the Golden".

Janis Papanagnou

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Apr 8, 2004, 6:50:23 PM4/8/04
to

And his body was all over covered by jewels (and gold?), and there was
just one small gap - Bilbo has detected that, told the dwarfs about it,
a raven heared it, who told it Bard -, so Bard could aim at that spot
and killed Smaug with his last arrow.

Janis

Tobias Wolter

unread,
Apr 8, 2004, 7:57:13 PM4/8/04
to
On 2004-04-08, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> David Corbett wrote:
> > Tobias Wolter wrote:
> >> Smaug was black, indeed.
[...]

> > Smaug was described as "red-golden". He was known as "Smaug the Golden".
> And his body was all over covered by jewels (and gold?), and there was
> just one small gap - Bilbo has detected that, told the dwarfs about it,
> a raven heared it, who told it Bard -, so Bard could aim at that spot
> and killed Smaug with his last arrow.

I need to get my head cleansed; I confused Smaug with Ancalagon. Sorry.
I'll just shut up now.

Kent Paul Dolan

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Apr 8, 2004, 11:36:23 PM4/8/04
to
"David Corbett" <dcorb...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

> Smaug was described as "red-golden".
> He was known as "Smaug the Golden".

Indeed, and most of the illustration in the first 15 or so pages
from Google Images show him as "orangish", though the range is from
bright red to earth brown and with a couple of really golden ones
to be a middle ground. Some of the better ones I found in a few
hours of browsing:

http://people.via.ecp.fr/~jm/musee/howe/smaug.jpg (1300x969 pixels)

http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/3/smaug.jpg (800x592 pixels)

http://csirke.inf.elte.hu/tolkien/kepek/smaug.gif (335x332 pixels)


http://www.lotruk.com/imagelibrary/images/hobbit/h-2-2701-smaug-in-flight.jpg
(400x300 pixels)

http://www.chez.com/tdupas/jrtm/dragon-smaug.jpg (820x1064 pixels)

http://www.tolkien.spb.ru/morgul/smaug.gif (482x482 pixels)

http://gondolin.czweb.org/smaug.jpg (600x439 pixels)

http://orbita.starmedia.com/arloia/smaug.jpg (400x307 pixels)

http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/mariani/smaug.jpg (1152x864
pixels)

http://www.chez.com/leweyr/pictures/tolkien/smaug.jpg (350x350 pixels)

http://members.lycos.nl/poortje/tolkienpics/smaug.jpg (482x709 pixels,
really golden)

http://www.whiteswan.de/Bilder/Smaug.jpg (2178x1618 pixels, immense
watercolor)

http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/distefano/Smaug.jpg (960x559
pixels, "Run, Bilbo!")


http://www.duvendor.hpg.ig.com.br/Artistas/Michael%20Hague/Full%20Image/Hague%20%2005%20-%20Smaug...%20o%20dragao%20vermelho.jpg
(832x1055 pixels, really professional)

http://www.lordotrings.com/images/tour/smaug.gif (238x195, golden again)

http://images.tolkienworld.free.fr/roger_garland/smaug.jpg (635x1000
pixels, really evil)


http://tolkienilu.chez.tiscali.fr/epopee/illustrations/hobbit/smaug_sommeil_howe.jpg
(824x1371 pixels, awesome use of light)

http://www.elronds-haus.de/cavini/smaug.jpg (700x451 pixels)

http://www.angelfire.com/ne/mithrandir/images/Smaug5s.jpg (452x600
pixels)

http://www.tolkien.art.pl/galeria/garl_12.jpg (995x1300 pixels,
[progressive JPEG] luminous!)


http://valinor4ik.narod.ru/biggallery/johnhowe/pics1/Smaug_over_torreon_jpg.jpg
(218x348 pixels, slow to download, very relaxed dragon)

http://members.surfeu.fi/slrk/smaug.jpg (320x480 pixels)

http://gorod.crimea.edu/foto/pics/WYATT_smaug.jpg (565x800 pixels, Smaug
so hot his gold melts!)

http://www.rotraud-ilisch.de/Bilder/smaug.jpg (507x340 pixels, Smaug in
3D)

http://fin.go.wifl.at.org/graphics_large/conversation.jpg (400x508
pixels, the size treasure heap I was expecting!)

http://timefold.com/images/rbh/rbh.Smaug.jpg (539x465 pixels, Smaug as
Gray)

http://www.tsautoart.com/Other_Artwork/Smaug/SmgL.jpg (594x463 pixels, a
less polished Smaug)

http://media.gameshark.com/cube/image/Smaug.jpg (800x560 pixels, from a
computer game)


http://tolkienilu.chez.tiscali.fr/epopee/illustrations/hobbit/smaug_sommeil_lee.jpg
(843x1211 pixels, Smaug is brown)

[Honestly, those URLs leave my site intact; what your site does to them
is a different matter entirely!]

xanthian.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Jon Champion

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Apr 9, 2004, 1:29:38 AM4/9/04
to
Tobias Wolter <to...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote in message news:<slrnc726o...@loki.ydal.de>...

> On 2004-04-04, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> > The way that these stories are connected to the proposed "comment"
> > is beyond my comprehension. There seems to be some logical break.
> > But maybe Nikolais can explain that.
>
> You can not justify not using the ring in the game just because it was
> destroyed after the course of Frodo carrying it.
>
> Perseus killed Medusa, the Nazgul were never in some stupid creepy dun-
> geon, and on and on and on..

I'm sorry I got this thread off topic, I just didn't recognize the
"short guy" to be the hobbit, and the hanging around the neck and all
that, and make the connection. I was probably exhausted from PT.
Anyhoo, I was thinking, did the other rings of power (i.e., the Nazgul
rings) have special properties besides their binding to the ring or
power? Like Bilbo would put it in a pocket and it would suddenly move
to another pocket. Could you get these rings to move from one
container (one a square or in inventory) to another? Or just drop out
of your pack altogether and scamper off to a new owner, "you hear an
unusual clang", or if you've worn it, "you have a great feeling of
loss".
And if it were added, would the one ring be cursed? Since both Bilbo
and Frodo put it on and removed it many times.
Znlor gurl whfg unq ternfl svatref sebz nyy gung tbbq by' uboovg sbbq
gurl ngr? :^)

Tobias Wolter

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Apr 9, 2004, 9:51:10 AM4/9/04
to
On 2004-04-09, Jon Champion wrote:
[The One Ring, and such.]

> Anyhoo, I was thinking, did the other rings of power (i.e., the Nazgul
> rings) have special properties besides their binding to the ring or
> power?

Probably. Let's fetch my Silmarillion.

``Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became
mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They ob-
tained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They
had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to
them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this
world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible
to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delu-
sions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their
native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the begin-
ning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and
under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became
forever invisible save for him who wore the Ruling Ring, and they
entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ring-
wraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with
them, and they cried with the voices of death.''

- J.R.R. Tolkien, Silmarillion, page 346 (HarperCollins 1999 paperback)

> Like Bilbo would put it in a pocket and it would suddenly move
> to another pocket. Could you get these rings to move from one
> container (one a square or in inventory) to another? Or just drop out
> of your pack altogether and scamper off to a new owner, "you hear an
> unusual clang", or if you've worn it, "you have a great feeling of
> loss".

According to the Silmarillion description: invisible and see invisible
(rather ethereal and see ethereal, but that's not in nethack). Maybe
some additional effects to make the success effects worthwhile, mayhap
clairvoyance.

And let them aggravate Nazgul and make you light up like a homing bea-
con to them. Additionally some other demons, for further fun.

> And if it were added, would the one ring be cursed? Since both Bilbo
> and Frodo put it on and removed it many times.

No. You could try to make them undroppable, though. Or at least have a
will check or something.

> Znlor gurl whfg unq ternfl svatref sebz nyy gung tbbq by' uboovg sbbq
> gurl ngr? :^)

Fher.

Doug Freyburger

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Apr 9, 2004, 1:42:41 PM4/9/04
to
David Corbett wrote:
> Tobias Wolter wrote:
>
> > Smaug was black, indeed.
>
> Smaug was described as "red-golden".

This month's Scientific American has an article on color words in
various languages. Languages in industrialized nations have 11 or
12 words that only have color meanings (gold is the metal as well
as the color so it does not count, pink is a color but no type of
object so it's a pure color word).

Some languages include blue and green together in the same word.

Some languages include red and yellow together in the same word.
Maybe this is the case in Old Norse? Tolkein was a Norse scholar
and he weaved much from Norse myths into LotR, far more than just
the names of the dwarves. In a language where red and yellow are
the same word, the color of gold is that word, and it could easily
be translated as red or red-golden. Does anyone know if Old Norse
had a word for yellow? I know about babelfish and modern lanuages
but not how to look up extinct ones. Anyways, English translations
of epic poems and sagas from Old Norse mention "red gold" on a
number of occasions and I wonder if this is an artifact of
translation not a depiction of alloy.

Boudewijn Waijers

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 2:20:34 PM4/9/04
to
Doug Freyburger wrote:

> Some languages include red and yellow together in the same word.
> Maybe this is the case in Old Norse?

Not as far as I know.

According to my etymological dictionary, red in old norse is pronounced
"rjodhr". Unfortunately, since it is a Dutch dictionary, it doesn't
mention the old norse word for yellow, but I guess it would be like the
modern-day norwegian for yellow ("gul").

> Tolkein was a Norse scholar
> and he weaved much from Norse myths into LotR, far more than just
> the names of the dwarves.

Wrong. He was English, a professor at Oxford University. He taught the
English language, but was interested in scandinavian languages, culture
and myth as well.

All this assuming you mean prof. J.R.R. TolkIEn, of course. There might be
a Norse scholar named Tolkein that I'm not familar with, and who also
wrote a book that can be abbreviated to LotR, and includes dwarfs. :-)

> In a language where red and yellow are
> the same word, the color of gold is that word, and it could easily
> be translated as red or red-golden. Does anyone know if Old Norse
> had a word for yellow?

As mentioned above, I cannot find it in my Dutch etymological dictionary,
but that doesn't mean that it does not exist. Not every lemma mentions the
old Norse variant.

> Anyways, English translations
> of epic poems and sagas from Old Norse mention "red gold" on a
> number of occasions and I wonder if this is an artifact of
> translation not a depiction of alloy.

That would be the latter, almost certainly. Red gold is a common alloy.

Jacobs

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 4:10:59 PM4/9/04
to
"Boudewijn Waijers" <kro...@REMOVETHIS.home.nl> wrote in
news:c56phq$cgq$1...@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl:

> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>> Some languages include red and yellow together in the same word.
>> Maybe this is the case in Old Norse?
>
> Not as far as I know.
>
> According to my etymological dictionary, red in old norse is
> pronounced "rjodhr". Unfortunately, since it is a Dutch dictionary, it
> doesn't mention the old norse word for yellow, but I guess it would be
> like the modern-day norwegian for yellow ("gul").
>
>> Tolkein was a Norse scholar
>> and he weaved much from Norse myths into LotR, far more than just
>> the names of the dwarves.
>
> Wrong. He was English, a professor at Oxford University. He taught the
> English language, but was interested in scandinavian languages,
> culture and myth as well.
>

But he was a scholar of old languages. I don't see how being English
means he couldn't be a scholar of Norse. I am only positive that he was
a scholar of Old English and got huge amounts from that culture.

Doug Freyburger

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 6:42:40 PM4/9/04
to
Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > Tolkein was a Norse scholar
> > and he weaved much from Norse myths into LotR, far more than just
> > the names of the dwarves.
>
> Wrong. He was English, a professor at Oxford University. He taught the
> English language, but was interested in scandinavian languages, culture
> and myth as well.

My poor wording. "Tolkein was a Norse person who was a scholar" no.
"Tolkein was a scholar on Norse topics" yes. He taught Norse for a
while, was asked to review the Gordon book that is still the most
popular Norse textbook, etc.

> > Anyways, English translations
> > of epic poems and sagas from Old Norse mention "red gold" on a
> > number of occasions and I wonder if this is an artifact of
> > translation not a depiction of alloy.
>
> That would be the latter, almost certainly. Red gold is a common alloy.

Pure gold is more easily refined and pure unalloyed gold has been
found in Norse archeological digs. I do not know if any ancient
Norse artifacts have been found that were made of the now-common
red alloy of gold/copper.

Seraphim

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 9:23:12 PM4/9/04
to
dfre...@yahoo.com (Doug Freyburger) wrote in
news:7960d3ee.04040...@posting.google.com:

> David Corbett wrote:
>> Tobias Wolter wrote:
>>
>> > Smaug was black, indeed.
>>
>> Smaug was described as "red-golden".
>
> This month's Scientific American has an article on color words in
> various languages. Languages in industrialized nations have 11 or
> 12 words that only have color meanings (gold is the metal as well
> as the color so it does not count, pink is a color but no type of
> object so it's a pure color word).

Pink is a kind of object. "Pink" can refer to a kind of sailing ship, and
"pinks" can refer to atleast two articles of clothing.

Boudewijn Waijers

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 4:16:45 AM4/10/04
to
Jukka Lahtinen wrote:
> dfre...@yahoo.com (Doug Freyburger) writes:

>> My poor wording. "Tolkein was a Norse person who was a scholar" no.
>> "Tolkein was a scholar on Norse topics" yes. He taught Norse for a

> Why do SO MANY of you people write "Tolkein" when you apparently mean
> Tolkien?

Probably because they also use "freind" ("friend") and "alter" ("altar"),
and confuse "rouge" and "rogue", "lose" and "loose", "there", "their", and
even "they're", "its" and "it's", "affect" and "effect".

They just don't care. "Hey, its obvius wat I meen, isnt it?"

I'll stop ranting now, but you can easily come up with other examples...

Janis Papanagnou

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 12:12:50 PM4/10/04
to
Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> Jukka Lahtinen wrote:
>
>>Why do SO MANY of you people write "Tolkein" when you apparently mean
>>Tolkien?
>
> Probably because they also use "freind" ("friend") and "alter" ("altar"),
> and confuse "rouge" and "rogue", "lose" and "loose", "there", "their", and
> even "they're", "its" and "it's", "affect" and "effect".
>
> They just don't care. "Hey, its obvius wat I meen, isnt it?"

I fear that it's true what you say about their typing there.
Though sometimes it's likely just the effect of a finger slip.

Janis

Boudewijn Waijers

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 2:07:33 PM4/10/04
to
Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

>> They just don't care. "Hey, its obvius wat I meen, isnt it?"

> I fear that it's true what you say about their typing there.
> Though sometimes it's likely just the effect of a finger slip.

He made the same slip of the finger three times, once in his original
post, twice in a followup.

And *I* always re-read a message before pressing "send", because I know
that I might have made a mistake and that it's being read by lots of
people.

K. Bailey

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 3:59:10 PM4/10/04
to
"Boudewijn Waijers" <kro...@REMOVETHIS.home.nl> wrote in message news:<c58ahe$svb$1...@news4.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>...

> Jukka Lahtinen wrote:
> > dfre...@yahoo.com (Doug Freyburger) writes:
>
> >> My poor wording. "Tolkein was a Norse person who was a scholar" no.
> >> "Tolkein was a scholar on Norse topics" yes. He taught Norse for a
>
> > Why do SO MANY of you people write "Tolkein" when you apparently mean
> > Tolkien?

Who people?

> Probably because they also use "freind" ("friend") and "alter" ("altar"),
> and confuse "rouge" and "rogue", "lose" and "loose", "there", "their", and
> even "they're", "its" and "it's", "affect" and "effect".
>
> They just don't care. "Hey, its obvius wat I meen, isnt it?"

Uhm, I don't think it's the same sort of thing at all...

--
kb

Beth Friedman

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 4:37:14 PM4/15/04
to
On 9 Apr 2004 10:42:41 -0700, dfre...@yahoo.com (Doug Freyburger)
wrote:

>This month's Scientific American has an article on color words in
>various languages. Languages in industrialized nations have 11 or
>12 words that only have color meanings (gold is the metal as well
>as the color so it does not count, pink is a color but no type of
>object so it's a pure color word).

"Pink" is a kind of flower.

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