The NetHack Code is gone!
Dion Nicolaas
years that it would disappear, but today it actually gives me an
error message when I try to go there. That means that the only
place I know where the NetHack Code was stored has gone...
Irina, do you want the NetHack Code to continue to be available
on the web? I couldn't find them on
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/irina/ or http://www.valdyas.org;
I could host it on The NetHack Index at Erebus if you want to.
Thanks,
Dion
---. /) | http://www.erebus.demon.nl/dion/nethack.html
/ \ / _ _ | _ _ _ The NetHack Index at Erebus
-/ )\ | (_(_ (_) \_ ()\ ()\ \ di...@altavista.net
_/___/ \| -------------------' Dion Nicolaas
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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Raisse the Thaumaturge
> Irina, do you want the NetHack Code to continue to be available
> on the web? I couldn't find them on
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/irina/ or http://www.valdyas.org
That's understandable, because (a) the first is a more infrequently
updated copy of the second, and (b) I don't host it myself because
I'm no longer maintaining it, I have higher-priority things to do
(i.e. I don't even get around to properly maintaining the web page
itself).
> I could host it on The NetHack Index at Erebus if you want to.
By all means, if you think people are still interested. I don't think
I have a recent copy (not even as recent as Viljo's used to be),
though, and it needs a major update that I can't give it right now.
Raisse, starvation
--
@ a human or elf (peaceful thaumaturge called Raisse)
-----------< Ascended (3.3.0): W, trying: AVS >------------
ir...@valdyas.org (myself) http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Dylan O'Donnell
> Dion Nicolaas <di...@altavista.net> wrote:
> > I could host it on The NetHack Index at Erebus if you want to.
>
> By all means, if you think people are still interested. I don't think
> I have a recent copy (not even as recent as Viljo's used to be),
> though, and it needs a major update that I can't give it right now.
The most recent copy I could find was the one you posted to the newsgroup
almost exactly four years ago:
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=142784860&fmt=text
I've made an attempt at updating it. Let me know if you think I've
botched or missed anything:
--------------------- The NetHack Code 1.2 ---------------------------
Maintained by Raisse the Thaumaturge (ir...@rempt.xs4all.nl, in real
life: Irina Rempt-Drijfhout) from an idea seeded by Ed Chang and taken
up by Dan Shiovitz. Updated for version 3.3.0 by Dylan O'Donnell.
Version information:
This is a maintenance release only. Real improvements have to wait until
version 2.
Forthcoming: inventory, playing speed, variants, et cetera.
Changes in this version: added 2; removed b and B as obsolete; many
minor alterations throughout to reflect changes in 3.3.0 (particularly
in status line).
Acknowledgements:
Aero (ae...@clark.net) contributed large chunks of $, E, PS, PP, N, b
and B, and also gave me the idea to put it into the first person;
Ed Chang (cha...@sina.eecs.berkeley.edu) contributed I and part of
Sp and suggested the short overview, and John Fouhy
(jfo...@actrix.gen.nz) made some helpful suggestions for Sp.
Pat Rankin, Adam Atkinson, Jukka Lahtinen, Viljo Viitanen, as well as
a number of people whose names were unfortunately vaporized by a
scroll of install Linux, told me about platforms.
Martin Read (mp...@hermes.cam.ac.uk) was probably the first person
actually to *use* it.
Raisse, killed by strangulation
0. Overview
Abbreviations
[ Armor PP Polypile
) Weapons G Genocide
2 Two-weapon C Conflict
P Prayer I Intrinsics
S Sacrifice @W The Wizard of Yendor
D Donations N Nurses
p Pets Y PYEC
$ Gold X Experience
t Treasure So Sources
s Shops Sp Spoilers
W Wishing sb Save file backups
E Elbereth wb Wizard bones
PS Polymorph self + Death
Examples
NH 3.3.0L D Raisse-Wiz-Hum-Neu-Fem HP:150 Pw:150 AC:-20
/* no L or T as this is a "D" code */
[+ )++ 2 P S+ D+ p++ $ t s++ W+ E PS+ PP+ G C I++
@W(*) N !Y X+ So Sp++ sb-- !wb
NH 3.3.0L A Adron-Wiz-Elf-Cha-Mal HP:198(199) Pw:465 AC:-39 L:28 T:55888
[++ )++ !2 P S+ D++ p $ !t s+++ W+ E--- PS-- PP++ !G !C I++
@W(7)w N-- !Y X++ So++ Sp++++ !2w !sb wb-- +0
1. Preliminaries
NH
This is just to show that it's not a *geek* code.
Version
For instance: 3.3.0, +, S'EM
If you play more than one version either separate with a slash or
put the less often used one in parentheses, e.g. S'EM(3.3.0)
Platform
Your type of machine. This list is far from exhaustive, but it's
being worked on.
D DOS
U Unix
L Linux
M Mac
V VMS
P Psion
At Atari
Am Amiga
Ac Acorn
O OS/2
W Windows NT
CE Windows CE
Type
The type of game that the NHC refers to:
D default - your usual or preferred playing style
A ascension - latest or best ascension
C current game
F most fun game
+ silliest, saddest, most stupid or most spectacular death
(optionally include cause of death)
2. Status line
Name, class, race, gender, alignment - these should be self-evident.
Note: if you've got "D" for Type above, you can use the rest of this
section to indicate the minimum you want before you feel comfortable.
Hit points
Maximum hit points; optionally current hit points with max HP
in parentheses, as they appear on the status line.
Power
Maximum power; optionally current power with max Pw in parentheses,
for spellcasting types.
AC
This is your AC in full (usual) armor. Put intrinsic (naked) AC in
parentheses if you're so inclined. This could eventually be refined
to include AC with special equipment or a range of AC in different
circumstances.
Level
Self-evident. Could include XP but that would probably be redundant
unless you're level 30.
Turns
If your status line shows them. Same goes for score.
3. Equipment
--- This section starts a new line of the NHC ---
[ Armor
[+++ I go for the best and nothing less, if I have to wish
for every single thing. I enchant it till it vibrates. Not
satisfied with anything worse than AC-40. I enjoy the lengthy
discussions on the newsgroup about the relative merits of
a +6 mummy wrapping over GDSM versus SDSM and a cloak of
magic resistance.
[++ My first wish goes on GDSM and I spend quite some time
to get properly kitted out (speed boots, shield of reflection,
gauntlets of power or dexterity, oilskin cloak), but I don't
mind waiting until I can polypile or buy something if I don't
have it right away. AC should be at least around -30 before I
enter Gehennom.
[+ I wear dwarvish mithril, an iron helm and well-enchanted
boots, gloves and cloak. I'm satisfied when ray attacks miss
and happy when most other things miss as well. On the other hand,
maybe I'm a Monk and I'm having to make up a lack of body armour
by filling the other slots with good items.
[ I try to get my AC well below zero before I do anything
potentially dangerous. Most of my equipment comes from
Boyabai's used armor dealership, the Gnomish Mines or
soldiers' barracks.
[- I wear whatever is handy, as long as I have some kind of
gloves to protect myself from carelessly tinning a cockatrice.
I'm still wearing that +2 orcish helm that I picked up in the
Mines. If something gets damaged I get myself a new one from
a passing elf or hill orc.
[-- I'm in cursed, rusty, tattered or otherwise deplorable armor.
![ I'm trying to ascend naked.
) Weapons
)+++ I know all the damage tables by heart and carry a +7 artifact
weapon for every occasion.
)++ I have an artifact weapon appropiate for my alignment,
enchanted to +6 or so, and wield that by preference unless
something comes up that asks for other measures. All my
weapons are properly blessed and rustproofed.
)+ I have an artifact weapon, but no scroll of enchant weapon
yet so it's still at +0. Throwing daggers is not beneath me.
) I have a favourite weapon and I'm so comfortable with it
that I don't even know or care what it does extra damage to,
if anything.
)- I've just been made Envoy of Balance and wouldn't give up
Vorpy if it became cursed, rusty and -2.
)-- I'm wielding a pick-axe.
)--- I'm wielding a cursed sling.
!) I'm trying to ascend bare-handed.
4. Playing style
2 Two-weapon combat
2+++ A +7 silver saber goes with anything.
2++ I'm wielding two well-enchanted weapons whenever I can. One of
them's an artifact if I can manage it.
2+ Two weapons are better than one in the more dangerous situations.
2 If I'm not restricted in two-weapon, I'll use it if I've got
weapons that make it worthwhile.
2- I usually prefer wearing a shield for reflection or the extra AC.
2-- I'm restricted in two-weapon combat. Why bother?
!2 Two-weapon combat is unbalanced. I won't use it.
P Prayer
P++ I've hacked the source to have my prayer timeout on the status
line so I can get the maximum out of my god.
P+ I plan my prayers so as to have the most chance to get my god
to do what I want.
P I pray whenever I'm in need. All the better if I'm close to an
altar and have a potion or two of water handy.
P- I usually forget to pray until it's too late.
P-- I've pissed off my god by praying once too often.
!P Gods? Who needs them?
S Sacrifice
S++ I've set up a base in a temple, collected and charged bags of
tricks and wands of create monster, and sacrifice until I'm
blue in the face and my god finally gives me Grayswandir.
S+ I try to convert most altars I come across and hang around
for a bit to see if my god feels like giving me something.
S I make a sacrifice on every co-aligned altar - just in case.
S- I've accidentally converted myself.
S-- I've accidentally #offered a white unicorn on a lawful altar.
!S I'm an atheist. If it didn't make such a lot of difference
in my score I'd rather escape with the Amulet of Yendor than
sacrifice it.
D Donations
D++ I plunder Fort Ludios as well as every vault I can find and
donate time and time again for that extra point of protection
or that extra time of clairvoyance.
D+ I collect enough gold to donate until the priests start
appreciating my selfless generosity.
D I donate whatever I have to the priest in Mine Town and when
I meet another one I'll see if I have some more in store.
D- If I happen to have some gold I don't mind giving it to a
priest, but mostly it's just too much trouble.
D-- I've strayed and need those donations to have the priests
absolve me.
D--- All I ever get is two bits for an ale.
!D I'd rather wear a cloak of protection, thank you.
D? Do priests need money then?
p Pets
p+++ I make an art out of taming one pet after another and
polymorphing them into ever more powerful creatures.
p++ I like to keep a pet or two on hand, preferably powerful, to
take care of priests and shopkeepers.
p+ I try to keep my pets alive as long as possible and tame
some more if I lose them. When they trip a poly trap or
obstinately refuse to move off the poly pile it's nice if
they turn into something interesting.
p Pets are all right to lift things from shops and to spot
cursed items, but it's no great loss if they snuff it.
p- Pets are a nuisance, but deliberately losing them goes just
a little too far.
p-- I forget my pet on level 1.
p--- I kill that annoying pet on level 1.
!p All my pets get killed by falling rocks.
$ Gold
$++++ I am Croesus.
$+++ I hang onto every zorkmid I encounter. When I get identify
scrolls, the first thing I do is bless them and identify all
my gems, and then sell them all to shopkeepers. I train my
pets to steal them back so I can sell them again. Croesus
has a bank account with me.
$++ When there's a vault on the level, I'll waste as much time
as needed with a pick-axe in order to find it. My goal in
life is to buy as much protection as I can before I hit
level 10. I don't buy from shopkeepers - that's what pets
are for!
$+ I like the score that money gives me. I burn up potions of
object detection just to find vaults. But if I'm carrying
so much that I'm stressed, I have no qualms about dropping it.
$ I'm a spender, not a saver. If I find an 'ad aerarium' message
I'm inclined to go and pick up the loot, but like the cookie
says, "money lost, little lost". Let's not forget priests...
$- Money is the first thing I drop when I get burdened. I carry
just enough for my immediate needs and leave the rest for the
dwarves to pick up.
$-- I load my sling with zorkmids instead of rocks.
!$ I'm trying for a no-intrinsic-protection ascension. Don't
even tempt me with money.
$? As soon as I pick up a zorkmid that #%@$& lep runs up and
robs me!
t Treasure
t++ I've identified every gem and worked out exactly how much my
collection is worth. I intend to polypile rocks before I
depart this world for the Elemental Planes.
t+ I've identified most gems and keep the most valuable ones
to take to the next world. The rest goes to unicorns, or to
shopkeepers when I run out of cash or credit.
t I've identified all colours of glass by killing glass golems,
so I can safely assume that all the rest are gems. Whenever a
scroll of identify has a slot left I use it on *.
t- I'm not going to waste my valuable scrolls of identify on
mere baubles.
t-- I carry a sack full of unidentified gems.
!t I can't be bothered with treasure - it just adds encumbrance
that I've got better uses for.
s Shops
s+++ Shops exist for me to plunder, shopkeepers exist to rob blind
or kill as soon as I get a chance.
s++ Shops are fun. I can get rid of all those useless items and
make some money in the process. Shopkeepers are there for me
to outwit and get the merchandise from under their noses.
s+ I like to go shopping with my pet, sell something, buy
something, steal something, whatever takes my fancy.
s I buy a thing or two when I need it and while I'm inside sell
some spare items, but I'm not really interested.
s- I don't bother searching for shops, they never have the things
I need anyway.
s-- I'd genocide shopkeepers if I could.
!s The only shop in my current game is the lighting store in
Mine Town and it only stocks cursed brass lanterns and mimics.
s? Who is that person cursing shoplifters?
5. Indulgences and restrictions
W Wishing
W+++ I'd wish for my own Quest artifact and the Amulet if I'd
get away with it. As it is I'll have to settle for other
classes' Quest artifacts.
W++ I wish for artifact weapons even if they're the wrong
alignment. In the early stages of the game I quaff from
every fountain until a water demon either kills me or gives
me a wish.
W+ I consider wishing for artifacts an abuse if not a cheat,
but everything else I can get is all right to wish for.
W I wish for what I need as and when I need it.
W- I wish for speed boots only to find a pair in the armor shop on
the next level down.
W-- I wish I could do without wishing.
W--- I tend to die with two blessed magic lamps in my BoH.
!W I'm on a wishless ascension.
W? I have the knack of wishing for exactly the wrong thing.
E Elbereth
E+++ If I'm not playing a wizard, my first wish is for an athame
so I can engrave 4 copies of the E-word on every square.
E++ I keep a magic marker or a wand of lightning on hand
especially to write the E-word. I also write it in the dust
with my fingers on every occasion, if only as an exercise
in wisdom.
E+ I put at least one E-word on each level, just in case. I'm
glad I picked up Magicbane from that bones pile, or I would
have been dead six times over.
E I'm a wizard. 'Nuff said.
E- I write the E-word only as a last resort.
E-- I'd like to be able to use the E-word, but all my daggers
have gone dull.
E-- The E-word is for wimps. Grayswandir works much better.
!E My source code has #define ELBERETH commented out.
E? What was it again? "Owlbreath" or "Galadriel"?
PS Polymorph self
PS+++ I've eaten amulets of unchanging until I can get to stay as
a xorn.
PS++ A ring of polymorph control is one of my first priorities.
Once I've got it I rarely spend time as anything except a
vampire lord. I've genocided humans, just in case.
PS+ Wands of polymorph have better uses, but I'll drink from a
sink all day. I have a few favourite forms to poly into and
know what to use them for. Also, it's sometimes profitable
to become a new (wo)man, elf, etc.
PS Polymorphing has its uses, but it tends to happen to me at
the wrong times. I don't drink from sinks till I have dragon
scale mail.
PS- I can do a lot more damage in my own form.
PS-- Polymorphing is just a good way to lose your cloak and armor.
PS--- I'm wearing a cursed ring of polymorph.
PS? Why do I keep turning into all those monsters?
PP Polypiling
PP++++ My name is Efembe.
PP+++ I set up a base in an empty locked room in Mine Town and
another one in Fort Ludios and carefully sort, cancel and
polypile anything that could yield something.
PP++ I've had a few fits of polypiling and now I'm collecting
stuff for the next one.
PP+ I collect unicorn horns and figurines to polypile for magic
markers. There's nothing like turning a huge pile of corpses
into K-rations.
PP I've polypiled once or twice to get everything I want - now I
can just leave useless stuff lying around.
PP- I never seem to get the right stuff by polypiling, so I'd
rather save that wand of polymorph to use on monsters or on
myself.
PP-- I've been killed by too many iron golems.
!PP Polypiling's more balanced than it used to be, but I still
consider it a challenge not to use it.
?PP Shuddering vibrations? Could that be the famous vibrating
square?
G Genocide
G++ I really go over the top genociding. I've even been known
to genocide my own race. Reverse-genocide is my hobby.
G+ I have a "must-genocide" list, work on that carefully,
and keep extra scrolls for when I run into serious trouble.
G I genocide purple worms early in the game to let shriekers
shriek away all they like. I'll do L and R when (if?) I get
that far.
G- I genocide indiscriminately without first checking if the
scroll is cursed.
G-- I was killed by a genocide spell.
!G "Live and let live".
C Conflict
C+++ I eat my ring of conflict as soon as I get the chance.
C++ My ring of conflict is never far out of reach. My preferred
weapon is Stormbringer.
C+ I use my ring of conflict to create havoc and join the fray.
C I use my ring of conflict to create havoc so I can get away.
C- I have a ring of conflict in a bag somewhere.
C-- My ring of conflict is on my hand - and cursed.
!C I do without conflict because I want the XP for myself.
I Intrinsics:
I+++ I keep a checklist of every possible intrinsic from the
spoilers and mark them off as I go along. I often spend
time as a xorn to eat all those yummy rings.
I++ I have an idea of which intrinsics I need in the different
stages of the game, and I know how to get them.
I+ I make it a point to eat floating eyes and tengus.
I I play Barbarians so I can eat everything.
I- I eat leprechaun corpses to get out of shops and have been
killed by every shopkeeper in the dungeon.
I-- I usually die after attacking floating eyes hand-to-hand.
If I survive to Gehennom, I die from losing strength to the
fire traps.
I--- My Valkyries choke on white dragon corpses.
!I I don't eat corpses and avoid crowning.
I? I just felt a chill - who left the door open?
6. @W The Wizard of Yendor
This takes arguments in () to indicate what you did to him, what he did
to you (alternatively: what you're prepared to do to him once you meet
him) and how many times you killed him before you finally got him off
your back.
p Paralyzed him.
w Zapped a wand of death at him.
t Tinned him.
d He double-troubled you.
* (as the only argument except (#)) Anything goes with the Wiz.
(#) Killed him # times.
!@W I've never even seen him.
@W? I've never even heard of him.
!@W? I got the Amulet of Yendor and escaped with it - now why
didn't I win?
7. Abuses
N Nurses
N+++ I've crashed the game by overflowing the hit point variable.
N++ I don't only dance with nurses, but carefully prepare a room
for it on a no-teleport level and work out a wield-and-unwield
schedule to get my HP well into the hundreds.
N+ I dance with nurses to get into shape for important events,
such as killing the Wizard, but let events take their natural
course after I've called them in.
N I'm willing to strip for a nurse if there's nothing
harmful in the vicinity.
N- I'd like to try the nurse dance, but I've run out of scrolls
of genocide and/or unholy water.
N-- I don't take my clothes off for any monster, not even a nurse.
!N I avoid nurses like the plague.
N? You cannibal! You will regret this!
Y PYEC
Y++ I use my first wish to get the PYEC and only play neutral
characters for that express purpose.
Y+ I wish for the PYEC if I'm neutral and have everything
else I want.
Y I'm a tourist. I've justly deserved it, and I can make the
best use of it.
Y- I've tried to get the PYEC, but it slipped through my
hands.
Y-- I found the PYEC on a bones pile and use it for opening
doors.
!Y I don't wish for quest artifacts.
Y? "Please, Mr. Asidonhopo, may I charge it?"
8. Experience and knowledge
X Experience
X++++ I've ascended every combination of race, class and alignment.
There isn't a challenge ascension I haven't done.
X+++ I've ascended every class and I've done a few vegetarians
and atheists too. Now for the really challenging handicaps.
X++ I've ascended most classes and am now trying to do without
some things that make it too easy.
X+ I've ascended a few classes, but I'm not up to a handicap
game yet.
X I've been in Gehennom and got swallowed by Juiblex.
X- I've seen Medusa, worse luck.
X-- I can't seem to be able to get past the Oracle level.
!X I can't seem to be able to leave level 1. Or figure out what
the keys do, for that matter.
X? HEY ALL YOU HACKERS DO YOU KNOW A HACK FOR ms wORD???????
So Sources
So++++ I'm on the Dev Team.
So+++ I've memorized large chunks of the source code and have
hacked my own version of NH.
So++ I have the sources on-line and refer to them frequently.
So+ I've looked at the source and understood most of it.
So I've looked at the sources, but my C isn't what it used
to be.
So- I don't bother with the sources. Let the real wizards
do that if they like.
So-- I can't figure out what the .h files are for.
!So Reading source takes the fun out of the game.
So? Hey -- where are the line numbers and GOTO's in this
program?
Sp Spoilers
Sp++++ I've written publicly available spoiler files.
Sp+++ I know most public spoiler files practically by heart and
have written some for my own personal use.
Sp++ I know all sorts of esoteric stuff, but I still get
surprised every now and again. I know what weapons and
armour to use, and which monster corpses do what.
Sp+ I've read all the spoilers and occasionally refer to them
if I'm not sure what a message means.
Sp I don't mind reading spoilers posted to the newsgroup.
Sp- I rely on the Oracle. If I can't afford a consultation, I
tend to die from being poisoned or wearing the wrong armor.
Sp-- I rely on fortune cookies.
!Sp I'm going to solve this damn game by myself, no matter how
long it takes.
8. Cheats
sb Save file backups
sb++ Of course I back up save files. It's the only way to win.
sb+ I back up save files to insure against particularly stupid
deaths. I've even been tempted to use them on occasion.
sb I make backups to insure against typos.
sb- I back up save files, but I've never used one.
sb-- I make backups to insure against irrecoverable game crashes.
!sb I don't make backups on principle.
sb? I don't know where the save files are on my system.
wb Wizard bones
wb++ I deliberately create bones files in wizard mode so I can
cheat without actually doing anything illegal.
wb+ I save bones files created in wizard mode, never mind what's
in them.
wb I use wizard bones when I find them and silently thank
whoever left them.
wb- There seem to be no wizard bones on our system.
wb-- I delete all wizard bones from the system.
!wb I object to using wizard bones files and if I do find one
I leave all the stuff well alone.
wb? I don't know how to get into wizard mode, let alone how to
leave a bones file.
9. Death (yours)
+# Number of times you died. N/A in a "D" code - everybody hopes
to die 0 times, of course.
--
Dylan O'Donnell : "For the sun will rise, and the moon will set,
Demon Internet : And you learn how to settle for what you get.
Resident, Forgotten Office : It will all go on, if we're here or not,
http://www.fysh.org/~psmith/ : So who cares? So what?" -- Fred Ebb, "Cabaret"
Raisse the Thaumaturge
> I've made an attempt at updating it. Let me know if you think I've
> botched or missed anything:
OK; other people please also meddle if Dylan doesn't mind (it's
firmly in the public domain by now)
> --------------------- The NetHack Code 1.2 ---------------------------
> Maintained by Raisse the Thaumaturge (ir...@rempt.xs4all.nl, in real
Please use my new address: ir...@valdyas.org. The xs4all one is
likely to cease existing before the other one does.
> S- I've accidentally converted myself.
> S-- I've accidentally #offered a white unicorn on a lawful altar.
Perhaps these should be swapped around, as converting oneself is
irredeemable.
> E+++ If I'm not playing a wizard, my first wish is for an athame
> so I can engrave 4 copies of the E-word on every square.
With the new wizard style, "if I'm not playing a wizard" is kind of
redundant.
> PP++++ My name is Efembe.
Is the Mad Polypiler still well enough known?
> I+ I make it a point to eat floating eyes and tengus.
"tengu" is the correct plural, IIRC.
Raisse, killed by a wand
Raisse the Thaumaturge
> Please use my new address: ir...@valdyas.org. The xs4all one is
> likely to cease existing before the other one does.
<grr> I meant "rai...@valdyas.org", of course. Even thought the
"irina" address is in my signature.
Raisse, fell into a pit
Bagpuss
>Raisse the Thaumaturge <rai...@valdyas.org> writes:
>> Dion Nicolaas <di...@altavista.net> wrote:
>> > I could host it on The NetHack Index at Erebus if you want to.
>>
>> By all means, if you think people are still interested. I don't think
>> I have a recent copy (not even as recent as Viljo's used to be),
>> though, and it needs a major update that I can't give it right now.
>
>The most recent copy I could find was the one you posted to the newsgroup
>almost exactly four years ago:
>http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=142784860&fmt=text
>
>I've made an attempt at updating it. Let me know if you think I've
>botched or missed anything:
>Examples
>NH 3.3.0L A Adron-Wiz-Elf-Cha-Mal HP:198(199) Pw:465 AC:-39 L:28 T:55888
> [++ )++ !2 P S+ D++ p $ !t s+++ W+ E--- PS-- PP++ !G !C I++
> @W(7)w N-- !Y X++ So++ Sp++++ !2w !sb wb-- +0
Just one thing: whats the !2w in the last line?
I had a go at doing mine for my recent ascension, here it is, if your
interested:
NH 3.3.0L A Richard-Wiz-Elf-Cha-Mal HP:239 Pw:416(467) AC:-16 L:29 T:76042
[+ )+ 2+ P S+ D+ p+ $+ t s+ W+ E- PS PP+ G+ C+ I++
@W(10)wd N+ !Y X+ So? Sp sb-- wb? +2
A lot of the time, I found myself not quite sure which one to pick. For
example I put G+, but my "must genocide" list goes: L.
--
Richard Smeltzer
Ascended: W
But it can still be a brighter day, all I need are some cooking
utensils and my special party hat...
Dylan O'Donnell
> >botched or missed anything:
>
> >NH 3.3.0L A Adron-Wiz-Elf-Cha-Mal HP:198(199) Pw:465 AC:-39 L:28 T:55888
> > [++ )++ !2 P S+ D++ p $ !t s+++ W+ E--- PS-- PP++ !G !C I++
> > @W(7)w N-- !Y X++ So++ Sp++++ !2w !sb wb-- +0
>
A mistake :-) That'll teach me to copy a code that I'd already fiddled
with, from my homepage...
> I had a go at doing mine for my recent ascension, here it is, if your
> interested:
>
> NH 3.3.0L A Richard-Wiz-Elf-Cha-Mal HP:239 Pw:416(467) AC:-16 L:29 T:76042
> [+ )+ 2+ P S+ D+ p+ $+ t s+ W+ E- PS PP+ G+ C+ I++
> @W(10)wd N+ !Y X+ So? Sp sb-- wb? +2
>
> A lot of the time, I found myself not quite sure which one to pick. For
> example I put G+, but my "must genocide" list goes: L.
You're allowed, I think, to have variances: that'd be G(+), to my
mind.
Dylan O'Donnell
> > botched or missed anything:
>
> firmly in the public domain by now)
Yes, please do meddle :-) That's what it's there for...
> > --------------------- The NetHack Code 1.2 ---------------------------
>
> > Maintained by Raisse the Thaumaturge (ir...@rempt.xs4all.nl, in real
>
> Please use my new address: ir...@valdyas.org. The xs4all one is
> likely to cease existing before the other one does.
Done. (raisse)
> > S- I've accidentally converted myself.
>
> > S-- I've accidentally #offered a white unicorn on a lawful altar.
>
> Perhaps these should be swapped around, as converting oneself is
> irredeemable.
Mmm. Converting yourself, provided you do so post-Quest, isn't quite
as bad as being in ill favour with your (current) god. But yes, worth
swapping.
> > E+++ If I'm not playing a wizard, my first wish is for an athame
> > so I can engrave 4 copies of the E-word on every square.
>
> With the new wizard style, "if I'm not playing a wizard" is kind of
> redundant.
Changed to "If I can't get Magicbane", which is what I had in mind for
not changing it originally.
> > PP++++ My name is Efembe.
>
> Is the Mad Polypiler still well enough known?
Maybe not. But his name deserves immortality :-)
> > I+ I make it a point to eat floating eyes and tengus.
>
> "tengu" is the correct plural, IIRC.
Changed.
Copy of the current version now available from my website...
Viljo Viitanen
} 3V's site seems to have gone now...
Oops, that wasn't intentional. I did a bit too aggressive chmod some time
ago. Fixed.
--
You can lurk again.--more--
Dion Nicolaas
NetHack code has been revived. To be rightful to the spirit of
The NetHack Index, I will not make it available there, but
instead will update my page so that you are refered to Dylan's
site as well for the new version.
Thanks to all,
Philipp Lucas
wrote:
>[ Armor
>
> [+++ I enjoy the lengthy
> discussions on the newsgroup about the relative merits of
> a +6 mummy wrapping over GDSM versus SDSM and a cloak of
> magic resistance.
I think you should change "mummy wrapping" to "oilskin cloak" or
"robe".
> [+ I'm satisfied when ray attacks miss
This is misleading, since AC -14 is no effective protection against
rays anymore, which was probably what this line was refering to.
>) Weapons
>
> )+++ I know all the damage tables by heart and carry a +7 artifact
> weapon for every occasion.
There should be something about the skills, like "I'm an expert in all
relevant skills and try to get at least to basic in most of them".
> !S I'm an atheist. If it didn't make such a lot of difference
> in my score I'd rather escape with the Amulet of Yendor than
> sacrifice it.
"Difference in my score?" Is this even possible?
>Y PYEC
>
> Y++ I use my first wish to get the PYEC and only play neutral
> characters for that express purpose.
I think only Tourists can use the PYEC for blessed charging (which is
the main advantage of it), so this should be changed to "only play
Tourists".
--
Philipp Lucas
phl...@online-club.de
Dylan O'Donnell
> On 14 Mar 2000 11:53:03 +0000, dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell)
> wrote:
>
> >[ Armor
> >
> > a +6 mummy wrapping over GDSM versus SDSM and a cloak of
> > magic resistance.
>
> "robe".
Oilskin it is. (I admit to personal prejudice here :-)
> > [+ I'm satisfied when ray attacks miss
>
> This is misleading, since AC -14 is no effective protection against
> rays anymore, which was probably what this line was refering to.
-18, wasn't it? "most ray attacks" would be better now, yes. Or on the
other hand, I could just delete that sentence, since the Monk part is
padding out that paragraph.
> >) Weapons
> >
> > )+++ I know all the damage tables by heart and carry a +7 artifact
> > weapon for every occasion.
>
> There should be something about the skills, like "I'm an expert in all
> relevant skills and try to get at least to basic in most of them".
Hmm. _Is_ there anyone that tries to get to basic in lots of skills
they're unlikely to use? If so, why?
> > !S I'm an atheist. If it didn't make such a lot of difference
> > in my score I'd rather escape with the Amulet of Yendor than
> > sacrifice it.
>
> "Difference in my score?" Is this even possible?
You can sacrifice the Amulet to another god, which gives "escaped the
dungeon in celestial disgrace". Your score (not counting inventory and
pet bonuses) is doubled if you ascend, which is where the difference
comes in.
> >Y PYEC
> >
> > Y++ I use my first wish to get the PYEC and only play neutral
> > characters for that express purpose.
>
> I think only Tourists can use the PYEC for blessed charging (which is
> the main advantage of it), so this should be changed to "only play
> Tourists".
Other neutrals can and do wish for the PYEC, even if they can't use
it as effectively. (Well, I don't, since I'm a !Y. But there are plenty
of people out there that do.)
Philipp Lucas
wrote:
>phl...@online-club.de (Philipp Lucas) writes:
>> On 14 Mar 2000 11:53:03 +0000, dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell)
>> wrote:
>> > !S I'm an atheist. If it didn't make such a lot of difference
>> > in my score I'd rather escape with the Amulet of Yendor than
>> > sacrifice it.
>>
>> "Difference in my score?" Is this even possible?
>
>You can sacrifice the Amulet to another god, which gives "escaped the
>dungeon in celestial disgrace".
Yes, but the wording suggests that it is possible to escape the
dungeon _without_ sacrificing the Amulet.
Oh, and another idea:
What about notes taking? We had several discussions about this in the
past. Suggestion (Someone with a better knowledge of the English
language should take care of the final wording.):
n Notes
n++ I take notes of every dungeon feature and take copies of my
list of discoveries so that I don't have to genocide 'h'.
n+ I use the call feature a lot to prepare against mind flayers
and take notes of every useful dungeon feature, including
fountains or sinks.
n I have a list of shops and altars, I note what intrinsics I
have.
n- Notes are cheating: Mind flayers are part of the game, and
there has to be a use for potions of enlightenment. I don't
like static dungeons anyway.
!n I always play in a single session and remember everything.
--
Philipp Lucas
phl...@online-club.de
Liz Walsh
> >
> > > PP++++ My name is Efembe.
> >
> > Is the Mad Polypiler still well enough known?
> Maybe not. But his name deserves immortality :-)
Will someone please explain this to me? I don't get it...
--
Liz Walsh * CS(Hon) III * ewa...@chat.carleton.ca
You were a good man, Charles M. Schulz.
Raisse the Thaumaturge
> dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:
>> @W(7)w N-- !Y X++ So++ Sp++++ !2w !sb wb-- +0
> Just one thing: whats the !2w in the last line?
He never used #twoweapon.
Raisse, killed by a mumak
Dylan O'Donnell
>
> > dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:
>
>
>
> He never used #twoweapon.
... which was also denoted by the !2 in the line before. Remnants of
an earlier, unwritten tweak I'd made to the Code for putting
ascensions on my homepage, and lazily copied without checking...
Wingnut
> [++ My first wish goes on GDSM and I spend quite some time
> to get properly kitted out (speed boots, shield of reflection,
> gauntlets of power or dexterity, oilskin cloak), but I don't
> mind waiting until I can polypile or buy something if I don't
> have it right away. AC should be at least around -30 before I
> enter Gehennom.
>
Might want to change GDSM to SDSM and mention CoMR.
>2 Two-weapon combat
>
> 2+++ A +7 silver saber goes with anything.
>
> 2++ I'm wielding two well-enchanted weapons whenever I can. One of
> them's an artifact if I can manage it.
>
> 2+ Two weapons are better than one in the more dangerous situations.
>
> 2 If I'm not restricted in two-weapon, I'll use it if I've got
> weapons that make it worthwhile.
>
> 2- I usually prefer wearing a shield for reflection or the extra AC.
>
> 2-- I'm restricted in two-weapon combat. Why bother?
>
> !2 Two-weapon combat is unbalanced. I won't use it.
>
?2 Why's my weapon resist being held second when I type #tw?
>
>p Pets
>
> p+++ I make an art out of taming one pet after another and
> polymorphing them into ever more powerful creatures.
>
> p++ I like to keep a pet or two on hand, preferably powerful, to
> take care of priests and shopkeepers.
>
> p+ I try to keep my pets alive as long as possible and tame
> some more if I lose them. When they trip a poly trap or
> obstinately refuse to move off the poly pile it's nice if
> they turn into something interesting.
>
> p Pets are all right to lift things from shops and to spot
> cursed items, but it's no great loss if they snuff it.
>
> p- Pets are a nuisance, but deliberately losing them goes just
> a little too far.
>
> p-- I forget my pet on level 1.
>
> p--- I kill that annoying pet on level 1.
>
> !p All my pets get killed by falling rocks.
?p Why is the studio audience applauding?
>
>G Genocide
>
G+++ I use an amulet of unchanging to safely genocide @. By the
time I reach the planes, everything's A, E, and &.
> G++ I really go over the top genociding. I've even been known
> to genocide my own race. Reverse-genocide is my hobby.
>
> G+ I have a "must-genocide" list, work on that carefully,
> and keep extra scrolls for when I run into serious trouble.
>
> G I genocide purple worms early in the game to let shriekers
> shriek away all they like. I'll do L and R when (if?) I get
> that far.
>
> G- I genocide indiscriminately without first checking if the
> scroll is cursed.
>
> G-- I was killed by a genocide spell.
>
> !G "Live and let live".
>
?G Why did genociding @ kill my orcish barbarian?
>
>C Conflict
>
> C+++ I eat my ring of conflict as soon as I get the chance.
>
> C++ My ring of conflict is never far out of reach. My preferred
> weapon is Stormbringer.
>
> C+ I use my ring of conflict to create havoc and join the fray.
>
> C I use my ring of conflict to create havoc so I can get away.
>
> C- I have a ring of conflict in a bag somewhere.
>
> C-- My ring of conflict is on my hand - and cursed.
>
> !C I do without conflict because I want the XP for myself.
>
?C Why's my cat biting me?
>
>7. Abuses
>
>N Nurses
>
> N+++ I've crashed the game by overflowing the hit point variable.
I eat them when they're dead, never mind cannibalism.
>
> N++ I don't only dance with nurses, but carefully prepare a room
> for it on a no-teleport level and work out a wield-and-unwield
> schedule to get my HP well into the hundreds.
I never play humans so I can eat them when I'm done dancing with
them.
>
> N+ I dance with nurses to get into shape for important events,
> such as killing the Wizard, but let events take their natural
> course after I've called them in.
>
> N I'm willing to strip for a nurse if there's nothing
> harmful in the vicinity.
>
> N- I'd like to try the nurse dance, but I've run out of scrolls
> of genocide and/or unholy water.
>
> N-- I don't take my clothes off for any monster, not even a nurse.
>
> !N I avoid nurses like the plague.
>
> N? You cannibal! You will regret this!
>
Wingnut
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GCS d- s-:+ a--- C++ ULS P L+ E---- W+ N++ !o K- w(---) O-- M- V?
PS++ PE-- Y+ PGP- t-- 5+++ X- R tv b DI+ D+ G e>++ h! r--- y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Dylan O'Donnell
> On 14 Mar 2000 11:53:03 +0000, dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:
> > [++ My first wish goes on GDSM and I spend quite some time
> > to get properly kitted out (speed boots, shield of reflection,
> > gauntlets of power or dexterity, oilskin cloak), but I don't
> > mind waiting until I can polypile or buy something if I don't
> > have it right away. AC should be at least around -30 before I
> > enter Gehennom.
>
> Might want to change GDSM to SDSM and mention CoMR.
We've done the GDSM v SDSM bit earlier :-) There's meant to be a
reasonable amount of slop in these definitions; it's not like it's
laying down the Official Ascension Kit make-up.
<snip many, mostly *?, suggestions, most of which I've incorporated. I
haven't the nurses, though... is eating them after finishing
nurse-dancing something that's commonly done? I don't really see the
point, given that you should be at max HP anyway...>
Wingnut
>j...@pinn.net (Wingnut) writes:
<snip>
>
><snip many, mostly *?, suggestions, most of which I've incorporated. I
>haven't the nurses, though... is eating them after finishing
>nurse-dancing something that's commonly done? I don't really see the
>point, given that you should be at max HP anyway...>
2 words: Tinning Kit
Dylan O'Donnell
> On 14 Mar 2000 23:37:12 +0000, dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:
>
> >j...@pinn.net (Wingnut) writes:
> <snip>
> >
> ><snip many, mostly *?, suggestions, most of which I've incorporated. I
> >haven't the nurses, though... is eating them after finishing
> >nurse-dancing something that's commonly done? I don't really see the
> >point, given that you should be at max HP anyway...>
>
> 2 words: Tinning Kit
Point conceded. Still, I don't think it's particularly part of the
nurse-dancing "abuse".
Bagpuss
>On 14 Mar 2000 11:53:03 +0000, dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:
>>2 Two-weapon combat
>>
>> 2+++ A +7 silver saber goes with anything.
>>
>> 2++ I'm wielding two well-enchanted weapons whenever I can. One of
>> them's an artifact if I can manage it.
>>
>> 2+ Two weapons are better than one in the more dangerous situations.
>>
>> 2 If I'm not restricted in two-weapon, I'll use it if I've got
>> weapons that make it worthwhile.
>>
>> 2- I usually prefer wearing a shield for reflection or the extra AC.
>>
>> 2-- I'm restricted in two-weapon combat. Why bother?
>>
>> !2 Two-weapon combat is unbalanced. I won't use it.
>>
> ?2 Why's my weapon resist being held second when I type #tw?
More commonly seen here:
?2 Why am I not hitting with my secondary weapon?
Wingnut
>j...@pinn.net (Wingnut) writes:
>> On 14 Mar 2000 23:37:12 +0000, dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:
>>
>> >j...@pinn.net (Wingnut) writes:
>> <snip>
>> >
>> ><snip many, mostly *?, suggestions, most of which I've incorporated. I
>> >haven't the nurses, though... is eating them after finishing
>> >nurse-dancing something that's commonly done? I don't really see the
>> >point, given that you should be at max HP anyway...>
>>
>> 2 words: Tinning Kit
>
>Point conceded. Still, I don't think it's particularly part of the
>nurse-dancing "abuse".
Agreed, since eating them never affects your max HP.
Peter Snelling
>
> ewa...@chat.carleton.ca (Liz Walsh) writes:
>
> >> Raisse the Thaumaturge <rai...@valdyas.org> writes:
>
>
Healer, IIRC.
> of years ago.. He had collected about every item that he had found no other
> use for, and polypiled them, until there were not many items in the game
> that hadn't been seen in that particular game. Boudewijn didn't seem to be
> in any hurry with ascending the character, it was more like an experiment
> in real game.
>
> I just don't remember how the story ended. Did Efembe finally ascend, or
> did he encounter YASD, or was the savefile just lost for some reason..?
I looked a while ago in deja news, and didn't see an
ascension post. In fact it had very few posts about
Efembe... It was a long time ago, so either deja news
doesn't go back that far, or else it was mainly in
rec.games.hack (predecessor to r.g.r.n), which was
deleted in 1994. Perhaps deja news deleted their
archive for it?
In any case, here was one 5 year old post I found.
Does this bring back any memories, Boudewijn?
) >> Forum: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
) >> Thread: highest/lowest scores
) >> Message 9 of 16
) Save this thread
)
) back to search results
)
) Subject:
) Re: highest/lowest scores
) Date:
) 05/15/1995
) Author:
) Boudewijn Wayers <ded...@wsintt12.win.tue.nl>
)
)
) << previous in search · next in search >>
)
) Message segment 1 of 2 - Get Next Segment - Get All 2 Segments
)
) s...@ice.uucp (Steven L. Gaiser) writes:
)
) >The only way to find out how many points one has (approximations
) >don't count) is to end the game.
)
) In a lot of compilations, you _can_ see your score during play. It just has to be compiled into the
) game, and you have to set an option during play, and a lot of versions of the game will show your
) score on the top status line.
)
) >The one time I played for points, I of course realized that I could go on
) >fighting new monsters forever. But being a "serious" player, that didn't
) >interest me. I got almost all of my points another way.
)
) Well, you obviously haven't met Efembe, the Mad Polypiler, yet... He is lingering on a completely
) excavated level with an altar and tons of goods for about a year now. Of course, he also has a
) virtually infinite supply of monsters, having in his posession a wand of create monster and the
) wished-for PYEC...
)
) >The reason I asked for high score is two-fold: 1) I want to know if
) >anyone has a more effective means of gaining points than I used; and
) >2) I wanted to know whether anyone has lingered ("until the cows come home").
)
) Still lingering... Let me give you Efembe's stats, while I'm at it. I don't play him that often anymore,
) but you get the point why, I
) guess...
)
) Here's a current screen shot (note my HP, stats, and score, but also note the time counter ticking
) away...):
)
) You are lucky! Full moon tonight.
)
)
) ##############^#########################################^^^^^############
) #############.^.....###################################......############
) #############.^.....###################################......#####......^
) #############.^.....########................###########....>.#####......^
) #############.^..<..########......^^^^^^^...###########......#####......^
) #############.^.....########................###########......#####......^
) #############.......########................###########......#####......^
) ############################................######################......^
) .....#######################................######################......^
) ^^^^^####################################################################
) .....####################################################################
) .....#####....//.########################################################
) .....#####....//.########################################################
) .....#####...*//.########################################################
) .....#####.(..//.#########################################...........####
) ##########...../.#########################################...........####
) #############/#################@##########################...........####
) ############/*(%##########################################...........####
) #############("###########^^^^^^E###########E################^^^^^^###### Efembe the
) Chirurgeon St:18/** Dx:23 Co:18 In:23 Wi:23 Ch:18 Neutral S:7864576 Dlvl:12 $:0 HP:1254(1254)
) Pw:537(537) AC:-37 Xp:30/104423490 T:350417 Satiated
)
) Currently, I am sorting out my wands, and identifying them. The rows of traps you see are trapdoors,
) created with a wand of digging while levitating. I made them to have peaceful creatures out of my
) way. Under the * is an altar, the *(%(" at the bottom are piles of goodies, mostly stuck away in
) chests, bags, and ice boxes.
)
) >Regarding point 2, I was wondering just how fanatically obsessive a player
) >has been. (Yes, I was obsessive, too, but my game was a week or two of
) >intermittent play, not months or years.)
)
) I won't comment on that... :-)
)
) >I figure that the charm of nethack is its unpredictability, so I wonder
) >how long any "serious" nethack player would sit around on an easy level
) >killing monsters. How many jackals (or even master liches) does one need
) >to kill to match my 28 million points?
)
) One cannot kill too many of a certain type of monster. There is a limit to the number of creatures of a
) certain type that can be created (I believe the standard limit is 100 per monster).
--
Peter Snelling, P.Eng. (snel...@nortelnetworks.com)
Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada
Standard Disclaimer: My views only, not my employer's
Boudewijn Waijers
between 3am and 11pm MET should be considered lost. Please resend...
"Raisse the Thaumaturge" <rai...@valdyas.org> wrote in message
news:8ald7f$4p4$1...@news1.xs4all.nl...
> Dylan O'Donnell <dyl...@demon.net> wrote:
> > PP++++ My name is Efembe.
> Is the Mad Polypiler still well enough known?
Efembe joined the PPA (PolyPilers Anonymous), and has been in treatment
for some years. After he came out of hiding, he changed his name to
Kroisos, to avoid being recognised.
Seriously, I haven't called any character Efembe for years anymore by
now... Brings up memories, though. I even remember where I got that name
from: it was the three-letter combination 'fmb' which I used to enter when
playing Moria, and choosing a character race/gender/class combination. I
often played a dwarven (f) male (m) priest (b) when I used to play Moria a
lot.
What a pity that combination isn't allowed in NetHack... Only human and
elven priests, unfortunately...
--
Boudewijn Waijers -- www.win.tue.nl/games/roguelike/
There are no stupid questions; just stupid people.
-- Mr. Garrison, Southpark.
Boudewijn Waijers
news:8ald7f$4p4$1...@news1.xs4all.nl...
> Dylan O'Donnell <dyl...@demon.net> wrote:
> > PP++++ My name is Efembe.
> Is the Mad Polypiler still well enough known?
Believe it or not: last week I logged on to my account for the first time
in months (other than for reading e-mail, but by telnet), and did some
serious cleaning up of my account.
Among other things, I removed the copy of NetHack 3.1 that was still
there, including all bones levels and save files. I seriously suspect this
finally meant the demise of Efembe at last: I think I remember seeing a
glimpse of the save file before deleting it for good... :-(
Dion Nicolaas
you
use the extended command patch.) How about:
b+++ I'm ascending a vegan pacifist illiterate wishless
polyless
atheist.
b++ When I must eat, I eat. When I don't have fruit around, I
eat
bodies. When they're meat, well, they're meat. But only if
I
faint.
b+ Some things are naughty. I generally don't do these.
b Sometimes, when I'm bored, I try to see if I can ascend
while
adhering to some conducts.
b- Hey look! I didn't even pray this game!
b-- A game not broken every conduct is a game lost.
!b This game is hard enough already.
b? But how many points did I score?
Dion Nicolaas
Dylan O'Donnell
> One thing I still miss here is a code on conduct (or behaviour if
> you use the extended command patch.) How about:
I think Experience covers that well enough; it's assumed that the
more experienced you are, the more challenges you'll try. Individual
challenges, such as atheism and wishlessness, have their own letter.
Raisse the Thaumaturge
> Dion Nicolaas <di...@altavista.net> writes:
>> One thing I still miss here is a code on conduct (or behaviour if
>> you use the extended command patch.) How about:
> I think Experience covers that well enough; it's assumed that the
> more experienced you are, the more challenges you'll try.
Don't assume that just like that. I for one don't usually give myself
more challenges after every ascension, and nobody can say I'm not
experienced :-)
Raisse, killed by a falling drawbridge
Dylan O'Donnell
>
> > Dion Nicolaas <di...@altavista.net> writes:
> >> One thing I still miss here is a code on conduct (or behaviour if
> >> you use the extended command patch.) How about:
>
> > I think Experience covers that well enough; it's assumed that the
> > more experienced you are, the more challenges you'll try.
>
> Don't assume that just like that. I for one don't usually give myself
> more challenges after every ascension, and nobody can say I'm not
> experienced :-)
Well, yes. But you _do_ challenge yourself, at least in some ways; you
don't wish for artifacts, IIRC. Whereas most people seem to agree
that, for a first ascension, anything short of cheating goes. I still
think that the individual letters in sections 5 and 7 deal with
conduct perfectly adequately.
Raisse the Thaumaturge
> But you _do_ challenge yourself, at least in some ways; you
> don't wish for artifacts, IIRC.
I've never done that, not even when I was a newbie. And I haven't
gotten any stricter with myself over 6-and-a-bit years and 12
ascensions. Some do, but some don't.
> Whereas most people seem to agree
> that, for a first ascension, anything short of cheating goes.
So do I, it's just my opinion that wishing for artifacts is *too*
short of cheating :-)
> I still
> think that the individual letters in sections 5 and 7 deal with
> conduct perfectly adequately.
Yes, right. But I contend that it doesn't depend on a player's
experience, just on their preferences.
Raisse, killed by a system shock
Peter Snelling
>
> Believe it or not: last week I logged on to my account for the first time
> in months (other than for reading e-mail, but by telnet), and did some
> serious cleaning up of my account.
>
> Among other things, I removed the copy of NetHack 3.1 that was still
> there, including all bones levels and save files. I seriously suspect this
Wasn't Efembe 3.0j?
- 3.0j was release March 1993.
- 3.2.1 was released in July 1996.
In any case:
> finally meant the demise of Efembe at last: I think I remember seeing a
> glimpse of the save file before deleting it for good... :-(
Poor Efembe. Of course, this probably saves you the heartbreak of
spending years on a character which was destined to fall into a
pit with a cockatrice corpse a few steps from the end.
I actually thought Efembe had ascended though. I remember a long
discussion about trying to nest bags of holding to carry out the
maximum amount of loot possible. I thought that was Efembe, but
perhaps not.
Stephen Lee
Peter Snelling <snel...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
[snip]
>I looked a while ago in deja news, and didn't see an
>ascension post. In fact it had very few posts about
>Efembe... It was a long time ago, so either deja news
>rec.games.hack (predecessor to r.g.r.n), which was =
>deleted in 1994. Perhaps deja news deleted their =
>archive for it?
I am pretty sure Boudewijn posted a stupendously long list of the
collection of things he had placed in one location (inside a chest, I
think). It's much easier to do this with a tourist than with any other
class because you can get lots of polymorphs with the PYEC and because
there are a ton of chests and shops on a tourist quest. (Efembe was a
healer who used a wish on the PYEC.)
The list of stuff he gathered was SO long that it caused some news
servers to choke on it (which may be why Deja doesn't have it; they also
don't like big posts in general). Many people never saw the original post
for this reason, I think.
I've done this myself, too. Everything that could be tinned, I tinned and
dragged them back to my little storage space on dlevel 15 or so
(eventually amounting to a couple thousand of the little metal cans, plus
hundreds of rations and a large collection of fruit, candy bars, pancakes
... plus extra food generated by a blessed horn of plenty, naturally). I
cleaned out every single chest and shop in the tourist quest, and brought
back those things (including the chests) and everything from Ford Ludios,
Gehennom, the Castle, and the Gnomish Mines. I untrapped all bear traps
and landmines and took those too. I made a lot of rocks and then
polypiled them for pretty little gems. I made a bunch of blessed
fooproofed +7 arrows and then polypiled them to create a complete
collection of blessed fooproof +7 weapons (except for things like unicorn
horns, which I manually blessed and enchanted up to +7) -- no mad
polypiling tourist is complete without a blessed, rustproofed +7 bec de
corbin, after all. I had spare bags of holding, a complete extra set of
armor (GDSM, oilskin cloak, etc.), and spare stashes of blank scrolls and
a dozen extra magic markers and a set of a couple hundred wands and
whatnot just in case I had an accident with a wand of cancellation or an
unwanted polymorph (I never did, fortunately), sitting next to useless
things like piles of dented plate mail and leather gloves donated by
helpful soldiers. If I managed to polymorph a tool into a figurine, I
blessed it and added it to my figurine collection. (Speaking of
polypiling tools, candles are the best tools to polypile, as they're
readily blessed -- blessed items are much more likely to survive a
polymorph than uncursed ones.) Everything was in one room, in neatly
organized chests labeled "food", "wands", "spellbooks", etc., with the
E-word engraved all over the place with a wand of fire to discourage
monsters from ever getting close to my stuff.
It was sickening, but very satisfying.
Jeff Zeitlin
>Version
>
> For instance: 3.3.0, +, S'EM
> If you play more than one version either separate with a slash or
> put the less often used one in parentheses, e.g. S'EM(3.3.0)
Suggestion: V=vanilla, /=Slash, /M=SlashEM, R=Rogue, and similar
for other variants (try to keep version abbreviations to 1 or 2
letters) ; parenthesize and separate by , or ;
Follow by variant version
Example V3.3.0,(/M5E0)
>Platform
> Your type of machine. This list is far from exhaustive, but it's
> being worked on.
> D DOS
> U Unix
> L Linux
> M Mac
> V VMS
> P Psion
> At Atari
> Am Amiga
> Ac Acorn
> O OS/2
> W Windows NT
> CE Windows CE
P=Palm, Y=Psion (Y kinda looks like Greek letter psi), or
Ps=Psion, PP=PalmPilot.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzei...@cyburban.com
Stephen Lee
Peter Snelling <snel...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
>Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>>
>> Believe it or not: last week I logged on to my account for the first time
>> in months (other than for reading e-mail, but by telnet), and did some
>> serious cleaning up of my account.
>>
>> Among other things, I removed the copy of NetHack 3.1 that was still
>> there, including all bones levels and save files. I seriously suspect this
>
>Wasn't Efembe 3.0j?
> - 3.0j was release March 1993.
> - 3.2.1 was released in July 1996.
>In any case:
Not possible, from what I recall. Efembe was a master of the technique of
exploiting horns of plenty to the hilt, and horns of plenty did not exist
in 3.0j (which I am used to writing as 3.0.10, but oh well).
[snip]
>I actually thought Efembe had ascended though. I remember a long
>discussion about trying to nest bags of holding to carry out the
>maximum amount of loot possible. I thought that was Efembe, but
>perhaps not.
That was a separate discussion. AFAIK people only used this to carry
stupendous numbers of gems that had been polypiled from rocks (before it
was made difficult to get 100 dilithium crystals from a couple dozen
boulders). Otherwise you risk losing your collection of wands, rings, and
scrolls for good because there's always a chance the nested setup will
detonate.
Dylan O'Donnell
> dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:
>
> >Version
> >
> > For instance: 3.3.0, +, S'EM
> > If you play more than one version either separate with a slash or
> > put the less often used one in parentheses, e.g. S'EM(3.3.0)
>
> Suggestion: V=vanilla, /=Slash, /M=SlashEM, R=Rogue, and similar
> for other variants (try to keep version abbreviations to 1 or 2
> letters) ; parenthesize and separate by , or ;
>
> Follow by variant version
>
> Example V3.3.0,(/M5E0)
The NHC isn't really designed, at present, to cope with variants in
any kind of depth; just noting that you also play Slash'EM is enough,
I don't think we need to record the particular version thereof. Rogue
isn't a NetHack variant, therefore doesn't fall within the scope of
the Code; is there demand for a notation of "other roguelikes played"?
That'd be easy enough to add, if so.
By all means write up a Slash'EM version of the Code, of course :-)
> >Platform
> P=Palm, Y=Psion (Y kinda looks like Greek letter psi), or
> Ps=Psion, PP=PalmPilot.
From the NetHack on Palm FAQ:
Q1. Does nethack for Palm exist?
A1. No.
Dion Nicolaas
>think that the individual letters in sections 5 and 7 deal with
>conduct perfectly adequately.
I must say I more or less agree with you, that most of the
individual conducts are accounted for in the experience section.
However, my addition was more aimed at the appearance of the
conduct screen itself, and how players may react to that. I
imaginane players changed their playing style because of the
summary of their conduct being available.
Dion Nicolaas
di...@altavista.net
The NetHack Index at Erebus
http://www.erebus.demon.nl/dion/nethack.html
David Hauptmann
is gone!" ssj...@tsoft.com (Stephen Lee) wrote:
[snip Boudewijn's Efembe character]
>The list of stuff he gathered was SO long that it caused some news
>servers to choke on it (which may be why Deja doesn't have it; they also
>don't like big posts in general). Many people never saw the original post
>for this reason, I think.
[snip several spoilers, like unicorn horns, polypiling]
>I've done this myself, too. Everything that could be tinned, I tinned and
>dragged them back to my little storage space on dlevel 15 or so
>(eventually amounting to a couple thousand of the little metal cans, plus
>hundreds of rations and a large collection of fruit, candy bars, pancakes
>... plus extra food generated by a blessed horn of plenty, naturally).
>I cleaned out every single chest and shop in the tourist quest, and brought
>back those things (including the chests) and everything from Ford Ludios,
>Gehennom, the Castle, and the Gnomish Mines.
[snip]
>I had spare bags of holding, a complete extra set of
>armor (GDSM, oilskin cloak, etc.), and spare stashes of blank scrolls and
>a dozen extra magic markers and a set of a couple hundred wands and
>whatnot just in case [...]
>It was sickening, but very satisfying.
<begin rant>
Sickening? No, rather sad, actually. When I read about exploits like
these, along with the Ascension kit for monks further on down and the
IMO insane things people do in order to ascend, I really have to
wonder about this game. I remember playing Rogue and Hack bach at CMU
in the mid-80s, and being ecstatic when Nethack came out for the Atari
ST and later PC, because I could finally play my favorite game at
home... I won at early versions of Moria and Rogue, sniffed a little
into Omega and took a gander over at Angband and ADOM... then dropped
out for a couple of years. Now I come back to 3.3.0, feeling ecstatic
about all the new features (Monks! Races! Improved spellcasting!) only
to be severely disappointed by this incarnation of my favorite game.
How is one going to figure out how to win this game if one doesn't
religiously read all the spoilers? Or consistently look at the code,
like some members here, which I basically consider to be cheating? It
used to be I managed to get at least to Hell (I haven't yet
ascended)... Now I have trouble to even get as far as Sokoban most of
the time. I mean, seriously, scrolls of fire on the 2nd dungeon level?
Water demons that happily summon Juiblex to my poor 5th lvl priest?
That's not the NetHack I remember. Or the wonderful skill list, most
of which is completely meaningless, because you're either not going to
find enough weapons to get better in a skill (Has ANYONE ever found
enough throwing stars to get to "Basic"?) or not going to find the
weapon at all (for example, monks can get better in very few weapons,
staff being one of them. Do they ever find a staff before the first
wood golems show up? Not in my experience... And by then, you're 8th
level or more).
What this rant bascially boils down to is: Reading the exploits of the
older members of this NG shows me that several features of 3.3.0 were
specifically implemented to reduce the IMO obscene amount of exploited
design features, sadly perpetrated by Codedivers and
spoiler-writers/-readers. Golems that arise from polypiling? Give me a
break!
I, for one, find that this incarnation of the game has become a little
too difficult for people like me who don't want to read code or
spoilers and who wouldn't dream of wishing for artifacts. And to all
the people who say "So stop whining and go back to 3.1.0", I say, why
should I have to do without features like monks, various races and
improved spellcasting, just so the experienced and jaded members of
this NG aren't bored?
I therefore respectfully submit the proposal that the next incarnation
of NetHack have a difficulty switch, so that poor newbies (and people
who don't like cheating) can at least get as far as the Gnomish mines,
without having to worry about Juiblex coming to haunt them in the
beginning, and all the experts to have whatever self-imposed
limitations or challenges they care for (the above description of the
polypiling tourist maniac made me goggle)
<end rant>
NH is an excellent game, make no mistake. I love it dearly, which is
why I'm so passionate about it...
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et très, très précis."
Peter Makholm
> Water demons that happily summon Juiblex to my poor 5th lvl priest?
If we are to remove such thing, then remember to remove all the
benefits of the fountains. It's all about balancing - Do you really
need to remove that cursed ring of polymorph and is the chance to meet
Juiblex just a little to much?
You just learned that the hard way. I rarely use fountains before I
have the slightest chance to survieve whatever it brings me.
[
Never been past the big room, never seen the end of the mines and
survieved. (not played 330 very much)
]
--
Never eat with glowing hands!
Noah Samuel Lesgold
Ok, the thing is, as I certainly learned before I started reading
spoilers/code, you have to figure out what's gonna kill you, and stop
doing it.
> the time. I mean, seriously, scrolls of fire on the 2nd dungeon
> level?
Never, ever, read unid'd scrolls unless in danger or life/limb or a
tough mofo. This is very straightforward, and I certainly figured out
how to id scrolls by price without spoilers. ID is really easy to
find, given some patience, and once you've got that you can start
working your way through them.
> Water demons that happily summon Juiblex to my poor 5th lvl priest?
Don't drink/dip in fountains unless you really need it (or, like me,
aren't too obsessive about character survival). Sure, magic fountains
are great, but water moccasins, demons, random cursing, poison, etc
are a pain in the ass. If fountains kill you consistently,
consistently don't drink from fountains!
> That's not the NetHack I remember. Or the wonderful skill list, most
> of which is completely meaningless, because you're either not going to
> find enough weapons to get better in a skill (Has ANYONE ever found
> enough throwing stars to get to "Basic"?)
Probably. Not me, though. So why should a archeologist who's never
seen a throwing star before he found half a dozen on dlvl2 be able to
toss 'em effectively? Let him stick to what he can use well -
pickaxes or sabers. The first can easily be upgraded to a mattock in
the mines, now that those also dig, and the 2nd can be bullwhipped off
the minetown guard captain half the time. Weapon skills are pretty
essential to differentiating between the different classes, and imo
they do that job effectively without making things terribly painful.
> or not going to find the
> weapon at all (for example, monks can get better in very few weapons,
> staff being one of them. Do they ever find a staff before the first
> wood golems show up? Not in my experience... And by then, you're 8th
> level or more).
So why, as a monk, do you want a piece of wood when you're a weapon by
yourself? Monks can get better in few weapons *because they're not
expected to use weapons*. This is very straightforward. Monks are
not supposed to be easy, in nh (as compared to rampant munchkinism in
slash'em). They're a challenge role, like cavemen and tourists.
Possibly, in the long term, one of the hardest classes to play.
> What this rant bascially boils down to is: Reading the exploits of the
> older members of this NG shows me that several features of 3.3.0 were
> specifically implemented to reduce the IMO obscene amount of exploited
> design features, sadly perpetrated by Codedivers and
> spoiler-writers/-readers. Golems that arise from polypiling? Give me a
> break!
Not that it's particularly difficult to avoid having that happen - in
order to get one you have to be indulging in the excesses that led to
balancing polypiling in the first place. If you're just 'morphing a
few items and a pet, you're going to be fine. And if you're polying
the loot from ludios, well, you're probably buff enough to take out a
golem anyway.
I don't want to seem like I'm completely dismissing your concerns, but
the fact is, nethack is hard. It's tough. It requires more time and
effort and concentration to complete than almost any other computer
game ever made. This is *good*. If I want an easy game, I'll play
solitaire. If I want to have to immerse myself in a game, I'll play
nethack, because if I'm not careful here, my character dies. Trading
off between risk and opportunity is very tough, but it's a rewarding
challenge.
Noah
--
Noah Lesgold http://www.cif.rochester.edu/~nlesgold
nles...@cif.rochester.edu | NDBC - Fear the power of the CBL!
"I'm torn between the comparable pain of continuing with this support call
or shoving a jelly bean through my eye and into my brain."
--Me, on a particularly distressing tech. support call
Stephen Lee
David Hauptmann <h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de> wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:32:53 GMT, in the Thread "Re: The NetHack Code
>is gone!" ssj...@tsoft.com (Stephen Lee) wrote:
>
>
>[snip Boudewijn's Efembe character]
>
><begin rant>
>Sickening? No, rather sad, actually. When I read about exploits like
>these, along with the Ascension kit for monks further on down and the
>IMO insane things people do in order to ascend, I really have to
>wonder about this game.
Um. You Have Entirely Missed My Point. The Point Is That All This Was
Unnecessary To Solve The Game. It's simply my idea of fun, sometimes.
I've done this with many other computer games too, not just Nethack.
That's why I said it was sickening but very satisfying. But no, you have
to use it as a springboard to launch your religious crusade, and read
things into what other people write that aren't th ere.
Really, guys, the game *can* be figured out without spoilers. The
spoilers make things a LOT faster, to be sure ... but it's really not all
that difficult to figure out what a lizard corpse can do, for instance.
Wingnut
wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:32:53 GMT, in the Thread "Re: The NetHack Code
>is gone!" ssj...@tsoft.com (Stephen Lee) wrote:
<snip>
>>It was sickening, but very satisfying.
>
><begin rant>
>Sickening? No, rather sad, actually. When I read about exploits like
>these, along with the Ascension kit for monks further on down and the
>IMO insane things people do in order to ascend, I really have to
>wonder about this game. I remember playing Rogue and Hack bach at CMU
>in the mid-80s, and being ecstatic when Nethack came out for the Atari
>ST and later PC, because I could finally play my favorite game at
>home... I won at early versions of Moria and Rogue, sniffed a little
>into Omega and took a gander over at Angband and ADOM... then dropped
>out for a couple of years. Now I come back to 3.3.0, feeling ecstatic
>about all the new features (Monks! Races! Improved spellcasting!) only
>to be severely disappointed by this incarnation of my favorite game.
>How is one going to figure out how to win this game if one doesn't
>religiously read all the spoilers? Or consistently look at the code,
>like some members here, which I basically consider to be cheating?
Ascend a few characters in Explorer mode? It's called that for a reason.
> It
>used to be I managed to get at least to Hell (I haven't yet
>ascended)... Now I have trouble to even get as far as Sokoban most of
>the time. I mean, seriously, scrolls of fire on the 2nd dungeon level?
If you consider your low-level characters valuable, don't use those unidentified
scrolls/potions. How do you identify identify scrolls? Hint: They're very
cheap.
>Water demons that happily summon Juiblex to my poor 5th lvl priest?
Water demon's don't like people playing in their fountains, leave their
fountains alone unless there's something specific you want to do with them.
>That's not the NetHack I remember. Or the wonderful skill list, most
>of which is completely meaningless, because you're either not going to
>find enough weapons to get better in a skill (Has ANYONE ever found
>enough throwing stars to get to "Basic"?) or not going to find the
>weapon at all (for example, monks can get better in very few weapons,
>staff being one of them. Do they ever find a staff before the first
>wood golems show up? Not in my experience... And by then, you're 8th
>level or more).
Monks are generally considered to be a "challenge" class, harder even than
Tourists.
Throwing stars (and polearms) fall into the category of useless weapons people
almost use. I generally consider polearms to be there just for the monsters to
use. Just because you can advance a skill doesn't mean you should. Each class
generally has only a handfull of skills it's worth advancing. Knights and
Valkyries can do fairly well without ever wielding anything but long swords.
Monks do just fine with their gloved hands and spellcasting abilities. Wizards
should probably only worry about their spell skills, since magic is what they're
best at. Etc...
David Hauptmann
<nles...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote:
>h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de (David Hauptmann) writes:
>
>Ok, the thing is, as I certainly learned before I started reading
>spoilers/code, you have to figure out what's gonna kill you, and stop
>doing it.
Ah, but this changes from each incarnation in the game...
>ID is really easy to
>find, given some patience, and once you've got that you can start
>working your way through them.
I beg to differ. I have yet to see as many identify scrolls as I did
in 3.1.0. In any case, it's never "easy"; if you don't play wizards
with books of identify or are lucky enough to find a book- or general
store in the first five levels, you're generally SOL.
>> Water demons that happily summon Juiblex to my poor 5th lvl priest?
>
>Don't drink/dip in fountains unless you really need it (or, like me,
>aren't too obsessive about character survival). Sure, magic fountains
>are great, but water moccasins, demons, random cursing, poison, etc
>are a pain in the ass. If fountains kill you consistently,
>consistently don't drink from fountains!
I never drink from fountains. I do dip things, like bad potions I've
identified, into them, and I can deal with water moccasins, random
cursing, even poison: these I consider acceptable risks. What I don't
like is the fact that a lvl2 character can be killed by Yeenoghu
because he dipped something; this just shouldn't happen so early.
The higher dangers should come with commesurate levels.
>So why should a archeologist who's never
>seen a throwing star before he found half a dozen on dlvl2 be able to
>toss 'em effectively? Let him stick to what he can use well -
>pickaxes or sabers.
Then why have the different skills at all?
>> (for example, monks can get better in very few weapons,
>> staff being one of them. Do they ever find a staff before the first
>> wood golems show up? Not in my experience... And by then, you're 8th
>> level or more).
>
>So why, as a monk, do you want a piece of wood when you're a weapon by
>yourself? Monks can get better in few weapons *because they're not
>expected to use weapons*. This is very straightforward. Monks are
>not supposed to be easy, in nh (as compared to rampant munchkinism in
>slash'em). They're a challenge role, like cavemen and tourists.
>Possibly, in the long term, one of the hardest classes to play.
Granted. Accepted, even. So what's the point of letting them become
"skilled" in Staff? What bugs me is the fact that you have these
wonderful skills you can get better in, and more than half are utterly
meaningless because you'll never get a chance to. What are options
good for if these options never make it into play?
[snip polypiling creating golems]
>Not that it's particularly difficult to avoid having that happen - in
>order to get one you have to be indulging in the excesses that led to
>balancing polypiling in the first place. If you're just 'morphing a
>few items and a pet, you're going to be fine. And if you're polying
>the loot from ludios, well, you're probably buff enough to take out a
>golem anyway.
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. What I meant was that the DevTeam
is obviously building in certain challenges in order to "balance"
things; it's just that I think they've thrown out the baby with the
bathwater, so to speak (Is that even an english expression? I'm not
sure...). In order to keep it interesting for the experts, they've
made it impossible for us "normals". Notice the many ways poor Deborah
keeps on dying (even though often, I don't consider them YASDs). In
earlier incarnations of NH, she would have had an easier time of it.
>I don't want to seem like I'm completely dismissing your concerns, but
>the fact is, nethack is hard. It's tough. It requires more time and
>effort and concentration to complete than almost any other computer
>game ever made. This is *good*. If I want an easy game, I'll play
>solitaire. If I want to have to immerse myself in a game, I'll play
>nethack, because if I'm not careful here, my character dies. Trading
>off between risk and opportunity is very tough, but it's a rewarding
>challenge.
Acknowledged. I agree. I just hate the fact that even though I AM
careful, I never manage to reach the levels I used to reach.
David Hauptmann
wrote:
>In article <38d20e66...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>,
>David Hauptmann <h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>Sickening? No, rather sad, actually. When I read about exploits like
>>these, along with the Ascension kit for monks further on down and the
>>IMO insane things people do in order to ascend, I really have to
>>wonder about this game.
>
>Um. You Have Entirely Missed My Point. The Point Is That All This Was
>Unnecessary To Solve The Game. It's simply my idea of fun, sometimes.
>I've done this with many other computer games too, not just Nethack.
>That's why I said it was sickening but very satisfying. But no, you have
>to use it as a springboard to launch your religious crusade, and read
>things into what other people write that aren't th ere.
Sorry, I didn't mean to start a religious crusade. After having become
increasingly frustrated by this, the latest incarnation of NH, your
post just finally drove me over the edge. Since I've never even gotten
close to doing any of the things you've achieved, I just let out a cry
of despair and lashed out at the first target ;-))
What you did was actually rather funny.
>Really, guys, the game *can* be figured out without spoilers. The
>spoilers make things a LOT faster, to be sure ... but it's really not all
>that difficult to figure out what a lizard corpse can do, for instance.
Oh? Then please tell me how common sense tells you what to do with a
never-rotting lizard corpse. I know what it does, I want you to tell
me how I'm supposed to know without having read a spoiler.
David Hauptmann
>On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:41:13 GMT, h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de (David Hauptmann)
>wrote:
>
>><begin rant>
>>How is one going to figure out how to win this game if one doesn't
>>religiously read all the spoilers? Or consistently look at the code,
>>like some members here, which I basically consider to be cheating?
>
>Ascend a few characters in Explorer mode? It's called that for a reason.
Which I consider cheating.
>> It
>>used to be I managed to get at least to Hell (I haven't yet
>>ascended)... Now I have trouble to even get as far as Sokoban most of
>>the time. I mean, seriously, scrolls of fire on the 2nd dungeon level?
>
>If you consider your low-level characters valuable, don't use those unidentified
>scrolls/potions. How do you identify identify scrolls? Hint: They're very
>cheap.
Yes, I know that. I still think scrolls of fire shouldn't appear the
first few levels.
>>Water demons that happily summon Juiblex to my poor 5th lvl priest?
>
>Water demon's don't like people playing in their fountains, leave their
>fountains alone unless there's something specific you want to do with them.
Does dipping potions count? Or dipping scrolls? I could deal with the
fact that a water demon comes; acceptable risk. That he should be able
to summon Yeenoghu is what bothers me.
>>That's not the NetHack I remember. Or the wonderful skill list, most
>>of which is completely meaningless, because you're either not going to
>>find enough weapons to get better in a skill (Has ANYONE ever found
>>enough throwing stars to get to "Basic"?) or not going to find the
>>weapon at all (for example, monks can get better in very few weapons,
>>staff being one of them. Do they ever find a staff before the first
>>wood golems show up? Not in my experience... And by then, you're 8th
>>level or more).
>
>Monks are generally considered to be a "challenge" class, harder even than
>Tourists.
I figured that out. But that still doesn't explain why they never find
a staff, even though it's one of the few weapons they can properly
use.
>Throwing stars (and polearms) fall into the category of useless weapons people
>almost use. I generally consider polearms to be there just for the monsters to
>use. Just because you can advance a skill doesn't mean you should. Each class
>generally has only a handfull of skills it's worth advancing.
I ask again, then what are the skills for? To irritate newbies who
think a fauchard fork is cool, only to find out that they'll never
find a one, let alone an artifact of the type?
>Knights and
>Valkyries can do fairly well without ever wielding anything but long swords.
>Monks do just fine with their gloved hands and spellcasting abilities. Wizards
>should probably only worry about their spell skills, since magic is what they're
>best at. Etc...
Great. In other words, the DevTeam thought long and hard and then put
in skills which everyone ignores, because "it [isn't] worth
advancing". Is it just me who thinks there is something wrong with
this picture?
<Sigh> Look, all I'm saying is it used to be possible to get
characters to Gehennom with diligence, careful behavior and a bit of
luck. Now it seems you have to have read the spoilers, tested all
aspects of the game in Wizard mode and have loads of luck to boot to
even reach Medusa. And I just think that's sad...
De Furball
(David Hauptmann) wrote:
>
> <begin rant>
> I say, why
> should I have to do without features like monks, various races and
> improved spellcasting, just so the experienced and jaded members of
> this NG aren't bored?
>
> <end rant>
> NH is an excellent game, make no mistake. I love it dearly, which is
> why I'm so passionate about it...
Then don't play slash. or any variant.
just stick with vanilla.
And for an extra challenge, pretend that you don't know anything
and learn all you can from Oracle first.
--
bumper sticker sig:
-----
* Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.
-----
Dylan O'Donnell
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:16:13 GMT, h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de (David
> Hauptmann) wrote:
> >I figured that out. But that still doesn't explain why they never find
> >a staff, even though it's one of the few weapons they can properly
> >use.
>
> to play Knights, Valkyries, and Wizards most often; the class may have
> an impact on item chances of appearance, but I don't -think- it
> does... source divers?). I suppose the RNG hates you :>
Neither class nor experience level has any bearing on the
probabilities of random generation of items. There's different sets of
probabilities of object classes in Gehennom, on the Rogue level, in
containers, and everywhere else, and then fixed probabilities within
those classes; they're applied without prejudice.
(This doesn't apply to things like starting inventory, of course, and
pre-specified items on Quest levels will be peculiar to that Quest;
and your XL will have a bearing on what monsters are created, and they
may bring their own inventory with them. Further, splint mail
randomly created on the Samurai Quest will always be rustproof. In
general, though, item creation is player-independent; have I missed any
of the exceptions?)
Amarande
Hauptmann) wrote:
>Granted. Accepted, even. So what's the point of letting them become
>"skilled" in Staff? What bugs me is the fact that you have these
>wonderful skills you can get better in, and more than half are utterly
>meaningless because you'll never get a chance to. What are options
>good for if these options never make it into play?
It's a form of variety that unfortunately doesn't really have a
practical chance of seeing light; it's actually a pretty common
problem in RPG-type computer games, especially ones that place the
emphasis on combat (like NetHack of course does).
Like all the nifty weapons skills in Ultima IX (they're fun to see in
action, but pretty useless; you can easily get by in that game only
developing Bows to Master and leaving everything else untrained), or
all the different weapons in Pool of Radiance and the other SSI AD&D
games (long swords were just so far and away better overall than any
other weapons, not to mention most of the magical weapons were
longswords, that you just didn't bother with the other weapons unless
they were a better magical weapon; the only weapons that even came
close in usefulness to the longsword were bows and the two-handed
sword).
So it goes in NetHack, too. The variety in weapons is nifty, but most
weapons are not really that useful compared to long swords and silver
sabers and, well, swords in general.
And to tell the truth, there's a reason why swords are used so much
more often than the other weapons, and the variety is forgotten. It's
actually realistic - swords pretty much obsoleted nearly every other
weapon, just because a sword happens to be superior to most other
weapons for combat use (the exceptions generally being bows and other
ranged weapons, and there are some uses for which staves are
better)... why saddle yourself with an inferior weapon? Sure, there's
the roleplaying considerations, but NetHack isn't really that big into
real roleplaying...
Amarande
Hauptmann) wrote:
>Does dipping potions count? Or dipping scrolls? I could deal with the
>fact that a water demon comes; acceptable risk. That he should be able
>to summon Yeenoghu is what bothers me.
I seem to recall a lot of seemingly minor outer planar type nasties in
AD&D being able to summon major outer planar type nasties, too.
NetHack being based very strongly on AD&D, it isn't surprising that it
happens there, too.
>I figured that out. But that still doesn't explain why they never find
>a staff, even though it's one of the few weapons they can properly
>use.
Quarterstaves haven't been that rare in my experience (though I tend
to play Knights, Valkyries, and Wizards most often; the class may have
an impact on item chances of appearance, but I don't -think- it
does... source divers?). I suppose the RNG hates you :>
>I ask again, then what are the skills for? To irritate newbies who
>think a fauchard fork is cool, only to find out that they'll never
>find a one, let alone an artifact of the type?
>Great. In other words, the DevTeam thought long and hard and then put
>in skills which everyone ignores, because "it [isn't] worth
>advancing". Is it just me who thinks there is something wrong with
>this picture?
See my other post in this thread about why the variety of weapons
doesn't get used nearly that much ...
David Hauptmann
[snip useless weapon skills]
>Like all the nifty weapons skills in Ultima IX (they're fun to see in
>action, but pretty useless; you can easily get by in that game only
>developing Bows to Master and leaving everything else untrained), or
>all the different weapons in Pool of Radiance and the other SSI AD&D
>games (long swords were just so far and away better overall than any
>other weapons, not to mention most of the magical weapons were
>longswords, that you just didn't bother with the other weapons unless
>they were a better magical weapon; the only weapons that even came
>close in usefulness to the longsword were bows and the two-handed
>sword).
Ah, but then you have a game like Diablo, where in the expansion, the
monk did very well with a staff, better than any other character; same
goes for Baldur's Gate, where the expansion once again let Druids use
scimitars; it's just a design problem/decision.
>So it goes in NetHack, too. The variety in weapons is nifty, but most
>weapons are not really that useful compared to long swords and silver
>sabers and, well, swords in general.
And that's too bad, I think.
>[...]swords pretty much obsoleted nearly every other
>weapon, just because a sword happens to be superior to most other
>weapons for combat use
True, true, but NetHack is anything but realistic...
>Sure, there's
>the roleplaying considerations, but NetHack isn't really that big into
>real roleplaying...
As one person on this NG keenly observed a couple of days ago, an
observation I definitely agree with: NH is far and away more complex
and interesting than any CRPG out there (with maybe the exception of
Planescape: Torment, so I've heard). It may not be big on "real
roleplaying", but it certainly blows away the competition.
David Hauptmann
wrote:
>h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de (David Hauptmann) writes:
>> Oh? Then please tell me how common sense tells you what to do with a
>> never-rotting lizard corpse. I know what it does, I want you to tell
>> me how I'm supposed to know without having read a spoiler.
>
>Ask the Oracle.
[snip]
OK, I hadn't thought of that. In earlier versions, asking the Oracle
was incredibly expensive, and seldom got you any decent information;
I'll have to try that in 3.3.0.
>Yes, it'll probably take a while before these answers come up. NetHack
>isn't supposed to be a game that can be won in a few sittings. Just
>buy some answers from the Oracle each time you reach her, and you'll
>amass a fair amount of knowledge reasonably quickly.
"A few sittings"? Since I've been playing NetHack since 1986 (and have
yet to ascend), I can tell you it's certainly been more than a few
sittings... But thanks for the advice. I guess I'll have to save my
pennies then.
David Hauptmann
[on dipping potions]
>I seem to recall a lot of seemingly minor outer planar type nasties in
>AD&D being able to summon major outer planar type nasties, too.
>NetHack being based very strongly on AD&D, it isn't surprising that it
>happens there, too.
Uhmmm... you do realize that characters in AD&D do not usually meet
demons and devils until they're 8+ levels? Any DM worth his salt keeps
these nasties until a party has a hope of handling them, because
that's what they are: extremely nasty.
[snip staff problem]
>I suppose the RNG hates you :>
I suppose it does. After 100+ games, I have yet to see a wand of
polymorph... <sigh>
David Hauptmann
wrote:
>Neither class nor experience level has any bearing on the
>probabilities of random generation of items. There's different sets of
>probabilities of object classes in Gehennom, on the Rogue level, in
>containers, and everywhere else, and then fixed probabilities within
>those classes; they're applied without prejudice.
And that's exactly what bothers me. Nobody thinks twice about the fact
that on the first two dungeon levels, one usually doesn't find
anything more dangerous than goblins, jackals, and moresuch; this is
considered "OK". But is it such a great leap to imagine making the
generation of items (and bad effects from things like fountains) a
little dependent on the experience level? Making the random generation
of items a little dependent on the class, so that the hapless monk or
wizard doesn't find swords only? Since character's skills are
restricted, I think the generation should take their possible skills a
little into consideration, if only in the beginning. So newbies (and
unlucky characters) don't die on the first two levels, but on levels
4-5. Would that be so horrible?
David Hauptmann
Furball) wrote:
>In article <38d20e66...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>, h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de
>(David Hauptmann) wrote:
>> NH is an excellent game, make no mistake. I love it dearly, which is
>> why I'm so passionate about it...
>
>Then don't play slash. or any variant.
>just stick with vanilla.
I'm getting curious about Slash, though. Does it have the features I
mentioned?
>And for an extra challenge, pretend that you don't know anything
>and learn all you can from Oracle first.
That's what I was ranting about, actually. I think the "extra
challenge" is too much of one.
Raisse the Thaumaturge
You think the extra challenge of pretending to know nothing is too
much, and still consider explore mode cheating? Make up your mind,
man :-)
Raisse, killed by a mumak
Slyvanian T. Frog
Raisse the Thaumaturge <rai...@valdyas.org> wrote in message
news:8b0km8$j0p$3...@news1.xs4all.nl...
> David Hauptmann <h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de> wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 02:38:21 -0800, stepv@**blahnfoo**netcom.com (De
> > Furball) wrote:
>
> >>And for an extra challenge, pretend that you don't know anything
> >>and learn all you can from Oracle first.
>
> > That's what I was ranting about, actually. I think the "extra
> > challenge" is too much of one.
>
> You think the extra challenge of pretending to know nothing is too
> much, and still consider explore mode cheating? Make up your mind,
> man :-)
Oooh, ooooh! Let me jump in! For an extra challenge, pretend that you
don't know anything and learn all you can from the Oracle for *that*
individual adventurer (in effect, not using any information you received
from the Oracle from past adventures, only information you've received in
that particular individual game).
Slyvanian T. Frog
Sly, beaten to death by a crowbar wielding luny.
Jason Price
> On 18 Mar 2000 09:54:30 EST, Amarande <ava...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> Uhmmm... you do realize that characters in AD&D do not usually meet
> demons and devils until they're 8+ levels? Any DM worth his salt keeps
> these nasties until a party has a hope of handling them, because
> that's what they are: extremely nasty.
You are correct about this. However, now that you know to be careful
around fountains then what is the problem? Just avoid them until you
are higher level. No one is making you use the fountain.
> I suppose it does. After 100+ games, I have yet to see a wand of
> polymorph... <sigh>
I've only seen two. A wizard started with one and my latest Valkyrie
just wished for one in the castle. However, that means nothing. There
are commonly long subsequences of non-random "looking" data in infinite
random sequences. Many people don't seem to appreciate this which is
why there is belief in astrology, ouija boards, fortune telling, etc.
While the sequences produced by the RNG aren't infinite, they are
sufficiently long enough and of a quality such that your statement
about not seeing a wand of polymorph doesn't mean much.
Rev Jack
> Yes, I know that. I still think scrolls of fire shouldn't appear the
> first few levels.
So, you want the game to hold yr hand and protect you from ickypoo
things?
> I figured that out. But that still doesn't explain why they never find
> a staff, even though it's one of the few weapons they can properly
> use.
The only time monks really *need* to use a weapon is if they're fighting
a cockatrice and have lost their gloves. By the time this scenario is
usually possible, one could have found a quarterstaff.
> <Sigh> Look, all I'm saying is it used to be possible to get
> characters to Gehennom with diligence, careful behavior and a bit of
> luck. Now it seems you have to have read the spoilers, tested all
> aspects of the game in Wizard mode and have loads of luck to boot to
> even reach Medusa.
Sorry, I just don't see it. The overall difficulty, IMO, hasn't really
increased very much. In fact, I find it easier than ever to reach the
later stages of the game and ascend in 3.3.0.
You mentioned reaching Gehennom with "careful behavior". Well, most of
the things you complain about are "reckless behavior"; reading un'ID'd
scrolls (I *never* read a scroll or drink a potion unless I know what it
is. *Never*.), dipping in magic fountains (One could play it safe and
only dip in the Minetown and Oracle fountains, which AFAIK are never
magical, and in pools of water, and dilute most potions using a unicorn
horn).
Bottom line, if the current version of Nethack is "too hard" for you, go
back to the old versions. Or play Ragnarok.
--
Hard like Tarot cards, behold the one-man million man march.
Rev. Jack Godsey.
http://spill.tripod.com
Spiritual counsel and webmaster for Pegasi 51.
http://pegasi51.tripod.com
Z
> ascended)... Now I have trouble to even get as far as Sokoban most of
> the time. I mean, seriously, scrolls of fire on the 2nd dungeon level?
Uhm... what are the Sokoban levels? I've heard a lot about them, but have
no clue what they are, or if I've entered them.
Timo Nieminen
>And to tell the truth, there's a reason why swords are used so much
>more often than the other weapons, and the variety is forgotten. It's
>weapon, just because a sword happens to be superior to most other
>weapons for combat use
Which is rather unfair on spears in general, as, in combat, they prove superior
to swords (for contemporary comments, see, eg Musashi Book of 5 Rings, or
Silver's book on combat). Unfortunately, you can't wear a spear with the same
ease as a sword.
RPGs and computer games don't tend to reflect this.
Timo
--
Timo A. Nieminen - ti...@physics.uq.edu.au - timo_n...@bigpond.com
Home page: http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/nieminen.html
Shrine to Spirits: http://www.users.bigpond.com/timo_nieminen/spirits.html
Amarande
A short ways past the Oracle level, if you've ever made it that far,
you'll find a level with two up staircases (as opposed to the level
with the Gnomish Mines entrance, which has two *down* staircases).
One of these up staircases goes back the way you came; the other leads
to Sokoban.
Sokoban is easily recognizable; there is a long row of pits in one
corridor, which corridor must be traversed in order to reach the
staircase up to the next Sokoban level. There are also a large number
of boulders on the map. Using ordinary boulder pushing, your task is
to fill up all of the holes so that you can pass the corridor.
Once you reach the top level of Sokoban, you again have to fill the
pits in the corridor. This time, the corridor leads to a zoo. This zoo
gives access to one of two different treasures - either a bag of
holding or some sort of reflecting item (IIRC, the amulet).
Sokoban has restrictions other levels don't, too. Generally speaking,
attempting to pass the level without solving the puzzle the right way
leads to a luck decrease.
If you destroy a boulder, you lose luck. If you have to generate more
boulders, you lose luck. I think there are some other ways to lose
luck, too.
Surprisingly, teleportation by zapping oneself with a wand of teleport
didn't appear to lose luck, though... at least, not the time I tried
it in wizard mode... is this a bug? or does it matter that the wand I
tested with was blessed?...
David Hauptmann
wrote:
[snip AD&D]
>You are correct about this. However, now that you know to be careful
>around fountains then what is the problem? Just avoid them until you
>are higher level. No one is making you use the fountain.
How do you erase scrolls and clear potions, then?
>> I suppose it does. After 100+ games, I have yet to see a wand of
>> polymorph... <sigh>
[snip statistics refresher]
>While the sequences produced by the RNG aren't infinite, they are
>sufficiently long enough and of a quality such that your statement
>about not seeing a wand of polymorph doesn't mean much.
Ah. Thanks for reinforcing my opinion that they are TOO random for
beginning players.
David Hauptmann
wrote:
>David Hauptmann wrote:
>
>> Yes, I know that. I still think scrolls of fire shouldn't appear the
>> first few levels.
>
>So, you want the game to hold yr hand and protect you from ickypoo
>things?
In a sense, yes. I don't see what ridiculing me does for your
argument, though. Go re-read my last few posts.
>> I figured that out. But that still doesn't explain why they never find
>> a staff, even though it's one of the few weapons they can properly
>> use.
>
>The only time monks really *need* to use a weapon is if they're fighting
>a cockatrice and have lost their gloves. By the time this scenario is
>usually possible, one could have found a quarterstaff.
You didn't get it. I'm perfectly aware that it is possible to play
this way; I'm lamenting the fact that you seem to HAVE to play this
way.
[snip difficulty]
>Sorry, I just don't see it. The overall difficulty, IMO, hasn't really
>increased very much. In fact, I find it easier than ever to reach the
>later stages of the game and ascend in 3.3.0.
Then I guess YMMV.
>You mentioned reaching Gehennom with "careful behavior". Well, most of
>the things you complain about are "reckless behavior"; reading un'ID'd
>scrolls (I *never* read a scroll or drink a potion unless I know what it
>is. *Never*.), dipping in magic fountains (One could play it safe and
>only dip in the Minetown and Oracle fountains, which AFAIK are never
>magical, and in pools of water, and dilute most potions using a unicorn
>horn).
Are you seriously telling me that everyone on this NG who's ascended a
character plays this way? That they all run around with several pages
worth of stuff (if a scroll of identify has yet to show) without
having tried out a single thing? I find that a little hard to believe.
>Bottom line, if the current version of Nethack is "too hard" for you, go
>back to the old versions. Or play Ragnarok.
Thank you for that helpful comment. :-( If you had read my posts,
you'd know why I will not do that.
David Hauptmann
<rib...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Raisse the Thaumaturge <rai...@valdyas.org> wrote in message
>news:8b0km8$j0p$3...@news1.xs4all.nl...
>> much, and still consider explore mode cheating? Make up your mind,
>> man :-)
>
> Oooh, ooooh! Let me jump in! For an extra challenge, pretend that you
>don't know anything and learn all you can from the Oracle for *that*
>individual adventurer (in effect, not using any information you received
>from the Oracle from past adventures, only information you've received in
>that particular individual game).
>
itself is difficult enough to certainly not need any extra challenges
like pretending to know nothing; I just believe that it should be made
easier for beginners and/or starting characters to a) survive a little
longer and b) gather knowledge without having to resort to spoilers,
the Source Code or this NG.
But I guess I'm in a minority of 1 on that one...
Wingnut
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:25:24 GMT, Jas...@ignmail.com (Jason Price)
>wrote:
>
>[snip AD&D]
>>You are correct about this. However, now that you know to be careful
>>around fountains then what is the problem? Just avoid them until you
>>are higher level. No one is making you use the fountain.
>
>How do you erase scrolls and clear potions, then?
>
With a wand of Bag-of-Holding destruction!
Wingnut
>On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:38:29 -0800, Z...@khaos.muck (Z) wrote:
>
>>In article <38d20e66...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>, h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de
>>says...
Msnip>
>Surprisingly, teleportation by zapping oneself with a wand of teleport
>didn't appear to lose luck, though... at least, not the time I tried
>it in wizard mode... is this a bug? or does it matter that the wand I
>tested with was blessed?...
Actually, it matters that you tested it in wizard mode.
In normal gameplay, sokoban is no-teleport.
David Goldfarb
>On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 08:44:01 GMT, h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de (David Hauptmann)
>
>With a wand of Bag-of-Holding destruction!
A low-level character may not be able to get one.
I've never quite been able to understand how so many people have
accidents with their bags of holding. Myself, I've ascended 10.5 times
and have *never once* destroyed a bag of holding by putting the wrong
thing in. It's just a matter of paying attention to what you're doing.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Why, look, Ted, it's a meeting of the new
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | community leaders."
aste...@slip.net | "Oooh! A town meetin'! Does we gits'ta vote?
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | I jes' loves ta vote!" -- _Bone_ #5
Geoduck
wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:38:29 -0800, a butterfly in Costa Rica
>flapped its wings, causing Z...@khaos.muck (Z) to write:
>
>>Uhm... what are the Sokoban levels? I've heard a lot about them, but have
>>no clue what they are, or if I've entered them.
>
>Sobokan appears on the level below the Oracle as a second up
>staircase. It's a set of puzzles, that you solve by pushing
>boulders to fill pits/holes. At the top, there is a prize that
>makes life much easier.
(It's not always the same prize, though.)
--
Geoduck
geo...@usa.net
http://www.olywa.net/cook
Jason Brown
>On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:56:21 -0500, Rev Jack <god...@planetc.com>
>wrote:
>>You mentioned reaching Gehennom with "careful behavior". Well, most of
>>the things you complain about are "reckless behavior"; reading un'ID'd
>>scrolls (I *never* read a scroll or drink a potion unless I know what it
>>is. *Never*.), dipping in magic fountains (One could play it safe and
>>only dip in the Minetown and Oracle fountains, which AFAIK are never
>>magical, and in pools of water, and dilute most potions using a unicorn
>>horn).
>
>Are you seriously telling me that everyone on this NG who's ascended a
>character plays this way? That they all run around with several pages
>worth of stuff (if a scroll of identify has yet to show) without
>having tried out a single thing? I find that a little hard to believe.
I have ascended characters both ways. Through experience however, I
have concluded that I live longer if I don't try anything unless I
know that it is safe to use. Wands and a few scrolls are fairly easy
to ID safely and usually provide me with enough stuff to survive. (I
also got tired of quaffing gain level potions when I was 10 points
away from level 3.) In order to not be burdened with a pile of
unidentified stuff, I'll leave it in a chest somewhere until I can ID
it. I very rarely dip from fountains and only quaff from them when I
am extremely lucky and have a way to counter the random cursing (I'm
of the school of thought that the 3-5 magic fountains per game are
well worth the chance of a random cursing which in my experience
happens maybe 1 time per game if I only quaff once at each fountain.)
By playing this way, I tend to survive a lot longer and no longer need
a lucky wish on the first 3 levels in order to ascend.
Of course, the beauty of Nethack is that there are a million ways to
do everything.
---------------------
Jason Brown
Recent Ascensions: RaTW
Core_Dump
>
> >On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:38:29 -0800, a butterfly in Costa Rica
> >flapped its wings, causing Z...@khaos.muck (Z) to write:
> >
> >>Uhm... what are the Sokoban levels? I've heard a lot about them,
but have
> >>no clue what they are, or if I've entered them.
> >
> >Sobokan appears on the level below the Oracle as a second up
> >staircase. It's a set of puzzles, that you solve by pushing
> >boulders to fill pits/holes. At the top, there is a prize that
> >makes life much easier.
>
> (It's not always the same prize, though.)
> --
> Geoduck
> geo...@usa.net
> http://www.olywa.net/cook
>
I just wish NetHack didn't erase your saved game when you lost.
Although the after the gnomish mines I always die, backup file or no
backup file.
--
// Core_Dump
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bagpuss
I've been reading this thread, but not posting to it and I do kind of agree
with you. I've got stuck a few times ("OK, I'm worthy for the quest, now
what do I do? Perhaps if I go back through the magic portal it'll send me
there. No, maybe I'll find this Tsrugi thingy in the dungeon somewhere
then.") and needed spoilers. You were asking about Slash'em elsewhere and
that has the useful feature that most weapon-shopkeepers will give you an
idea of how good a weapon is for just a few zorkmids.
--
Richard Smeltzer
Ascended: W
But it can still be a brighter day, all I need are some cooking
utensils and my special party hat...
David Damerell
>Amarande <ava...@concentric.net> wrote:
>>And to tell the truth, there's a reason why swords are used so much
>>more often than the other weapons, and the variety is forgotten. It's
>>actually realistic - swords pretty much obsoleted nearly every other
>>weapon, just because a sword happens to be superior to most other
>>weapons for combat use
>Which is rather unfair on spears in general
For that matter, a hammer is probably better against an armoured opponent.
However, NetHack's not realistic; we can pretty well ignore realism and
ask what we'd like. Personally, I'd hate a game that encouraged too much
weapon switching on a per-opponent basis, but like one that encouraged it
on a long term basis. Much as I hate to say it, I think Angband has the
edge here; the incremental improvements in kit mean you switch weapons
many times as the game progresses. The trouble with Angband (and NetHack)
is that the weapons have little flavour - NH overcomes that to a degree
with the long-range polearms.
--
David/Kirsty Damerell. dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
It moves between us, for one moment, like opium in your heart, with remedies
from the ancient gods, to heal the morals of our shadows. Devil, come to me,
open up the door, lead me ciahra to the centre of it all...(FotN:Submission)
Jukka Markus Kuusisto
>Are you seriously telling me that everyone on this NG who's ascended a
>character plays this way? That they all run around with several pages
>worth of stuff (if a scroll of identify has yet to show) without
>having tried out a single thing? I find that a little hard to believe.
I've ascended 12 characters. I read all non-cursed scrolls I find
until I find the identify scroll. After that, I don't read unidentified
scrolls. Potions I test by dipping and drinking (I try to make sure that
there are no monsters near, in case it's paralysis or sleep). I try to
identify wands by engraving and zapping. I try on all non-cursed rings
and amulets.
These tactics work for me, I don't remember when was the last time
I've died because of drinking an unidentified potion that turned out
to be paralysis or sleep. Of course, if I don't have my pet around, I
have to find an altar to test the cursedness of the items. In that case
I may end up carrying a lot of unidentified stuff.
-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Gary D. Young
> >
> >> Yes, I know that. I still think scrolls of fire shouldn't appear the
> >> first few levels.
> >
> >So, you want the game to hold yr hand and protect you from ickypoo
> >things?
>
> In a sense, yes. I don't see what ridiculing me does for your
> argument, though. Go re-read my last few posts.
Ridiculing a newbie is a bad thing. Shame on you, Jack.
> >> I figured that out. But that still doesn't explain why they never find
> >> a staff, even though it's one of the few weapons they can properly
> >> use.
> >
> >The only time monks really *need* to use a weapon is if they're fighting
> >a cockatrice and have lost their gloves. By the time this scenario is
> >usually possible, one could have found a quarterstaff.
>
> You didn't get it. I'm perfectly aware that it is possible to play
> this way; I'm lamenting the fact that you seem to HAVE to play this
> way.
It's the most effective way to play a monk. I bet they do much
better barehanded than with a staff regardless of the training.
So while you don't *have* to run around the dungeon actually
killing the creatures, you'll survive longer if you do.
> >You mentioned reaching Gehennom with "careful behavior". Well, most of
> >the things you complain about are "reckless behavior"; reading un'ID'd
> >scrolls (I *never* read a scroll or drink a potion unless I know what it
> >is. *Never*.), dipping in magic fountains (One could play it safe and
> >only dip in the Minetown and Oracle fountains, which AFAIK are never
> >magical, and in pools of water, and dilute most potions using a unicorn
> >horn).
>
> Are you seriously telling me that everyone on this NG who's ascended a
> character plays this way? That they all run around with several pages
> worth of stuff (if a scroll of identify has yet to show) without
> having tried out a single thing? I find that a little hard to believe.
Actually, I very nearly do the same thing. But there are ways of
identifying scrolls using shopkeepers in vanilla by pricing, and
paying careful attention to what kind of scrolls you've seen...
So, when I read an unidentified scroll, I have an excellent idea
of what it is. There are times when I've narrowed down two scrolls
of the same value that are relatively innocuous and I read one of
them to identify them both. So I am reading a scroll whose type
I don't know, but it's a very educated guess.
As for fountains, I intentionally play recklessly on the first few
dlvls. I lose a fair number of characters that way, but I'm willing
to hold out for a wish on dlvl 1-5 to get my ascensions. If I want
a more challenging style of ascension, I can do it differently, but
as an intermediate player with only a handful of ascensions (as
compared to an advanced player with at least one ascension per
role) I'm willing to cop out for the easier route. (This refers
to water demons/wishes/fountains in case it wasn't obvious.)
> >Bottom line, if the current version of Nethack is "too hard" for you, go
> >back to the old versions. Or play Ragnarok.
>
> Thank you for that helpful comment. :-( If you had read my posts,
> you'd know why I will not do that.
Some have probably mentioned explore mode. Which is a suitable
tool for learning some of the basics. You can't learn to be a
good player with it since the mistakes don't sink into your
skull like they would otherwise, but it is useful nonetheless.
--
#include <disclaimer.h>
/-------------------------------------------------\
| Gary D. Young gdy...@us.oracle.flames.com |
| Chance Dragon Source Diver |
| --=<UDIC>=-- Ascensions: VA |
| to respond: delete all flames |
\-------------------------------------------------/
Boudewijn Waijers
news:m3ya7gs...@curmudgeon.home.miggy.org...
> h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de (David Hauptmann) writes:
> > [...] please tell me how common sense tells you what to do with a
> > never-rotting lizard corpse. I know what it does, I want you to tell
> > me how I'm supposed to know without having read a spoiler.
> Ask the Oracle. For a moderate sum of zorkmids, she'll tell you:
> [...]
Even cheaper: ask the game about information on the cockatrice with the /
command. The hint you get may not be as obvious as the one from the
Oracle, but it still might give some indication...
--
Boudewijn Waijers -- www.win.tue.nl/games/roguelike/
A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar ellenath!
Na-chaered palan-díriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sí nef aearon!
Boudewijn Waijers
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:25:24 GMT, Jas...@ignmail.com (Jason Price)
> wrote:
> >You are correct about this. However, now that you know to be careful
> >around fountains then what is the problem? Just avoid them until you
> >are higher level. No one is making you use the fountain.
> How do you erase scrolls and clear potions, then?
At low level, you normally have no reason to erase scrolls or clear
potions. There aren't that many characters with a magic marker at low
level. So, you just wait until later and erase or clear then. Also, you
may find water walking boots and use (for example) a moat to dip your
things in (or any other non-fountain spot of water).
Boudewijn Waijers
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 06:49:34 GMT, j...@pinn.net (Wingnut) wrote:
> >Ascend a few characters in Explorer mode? It's called that for a
reason.
> Which I consider cheating.
The gereral opinion in this newsgroup is that anything that is clearly
meant to be working as it works (like explore mode) shouldn't be
considered cheating. After all, you don't end up in the record file.
If it were considered cheating, it would have been removed long ago. It is
even mentioned in the Guidebook as a good way to learn the game.
> Yes, I know that. I still think scrolls of fire shouldn't appear the
> first few levels.
That's just the way NetHack works: monsters get increasingly more
difficult as your and the dungeon's level progresses, as does the type of
dungeon level generated. On the other hand, items have no "difficulty"
attached to them, only a probability of appearing. That's why you're just
as likely to find a scroll of amnesia on level 1 as you are to find it in
Gehennom.
> I figured that out. But that still doesn't explain why they never find
> a staff, even though it's one of the few weapons they can properly
> use.
You mean you're never ever defeated a wood golem?
Boudewijn Waijers
news:jkuusist....@snakemail.hut.fi...
> I've ascended 12 characters. I read all non-cursed scrolls I find
> until I find the identify scroll. After that, I don't read unidentified
> scrolls. Potions I test by dipping and drinking (I try to make sure that
> there are no monsters near, in case it's paralysis or sleep). I try to
> identify wands by engraving and zapping. I try on all non-cursed rings
> and amulets.
I used to do that some time ago, but I stopped trying out potions for the
chance of them being potions of polymorph, after I lost a promising
character that way a while ago. I still try out uncursed scrolls and rings
once in a while.
Boudewijn Waijers
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:56:21 -0500, Rev Jack <god...@planetc.com>
> wrote:
>> I *never* read a scroll or drink a potion unless I know what it
>> is. *Never*. [...]
> Are you seriously telling me that everyone on this NG who's ascended a
> character plays this way? That they all run around with several pages
> worth of stuff (if a scroll of identify has yet to show) without
> having tried out a single thing? I find that a little hard to believe.
I cannot speak for anyone else, of course, but *I* always do. And as far
as I'm concerned, if you don't play at least careful, you generally won't
make it very far. Of course, you will get lucky once in a while, but to be
sure, you better play safe.
But I fully understand that a lot of people won't enjoy the way I play:
even I am sometimes in the mood to play a few games just trying out
everything I find, especially while the character is still low-level...
Well, you will know what I'm talking about if I tell you I was the one
playing Efembe (see another thread). If ever I played carefully and
slowly, it was with him.
Paul Vader
>How do you erase scrolls and clear potions, then?
Scrolls I wouldn't bother with until you have a marker, but holy water is
handy stuff throughout the entire game. Once you've visited the first level
of the mines, you can easily make all the holy water you want...
spoiler space
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Pickaxe a fountain, drop all your possessions, then go swimming with just
your unwanted potions. If you don't get killed while running around naked
(strategic placement of the E word, and locking doors can be helpful),
you've got all the fresh water you need. Even fruit juice and booze (which
is actually good to have around until a spell burns out) can be converted
this way. I usually throw away (or lock in a chest) cancellation wands as
soon as I identify them. It's too easy to do something bad with them. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
Joel Gluth
<SNIP severity="major"/>
> I usually throw away (or lock in a chest) cancellation wands as
> soon as I identify them. It's too easy to do something bad with them. *
Seriously? In exchange for a little care in inventory management,
/oCancellation are a very powerful tool. Dragons and disenchanters are
rendered Mostly Harmless just for starters.
Monster special abilities are what makes them dangerous in the middle
and late game. Green slime, fooatrices... in the early game, they're a
nice hedge against nymphs, rust monsters and gremlins too.
The blanking/uncursing/+0ing is potentially useful, but cancellation
is almost as useful as teleportation as a defensive tool IMO, and
shouldn't be discarded just because is allows you to shoot yourself in
the foot. Write DANGER WILL ROBINSON CANCELLATION DO NOT PUT ME IN BOH
on them if you have to, but don't chuck 'em.
Come to think of it, it's lucky monsters don't use them on
us. *shudder*.
Hack on hack on hack on,
--
Joel Gluth // Software Engineer, N-space. http://www.n-space.com.au
"We need to recommit to software engineering as a discipline."
-- (Microsoft President) Steve Ballmer
Bruce Cox
> "Jukka Markus Kuusisto" <jkuu...@gamma.hut.fi> wrote in message
> news:jkuusist....@snakemail.hut.fi...
>
> > scrolls. Potions I test by dipping and drinking (I try to make sure that
> > there are no monsters near, in case it's paralysis or sleep). I try to
>
> I used to do that some time ago, but I stopped trying out potions for the
> chance of them being potions of polymorph, after I lost a promising
> character that way a while ago.
Ah, but this won't happen if you test them by dipping before you
drink. Dip something useless first. If it doesn't polymorph, dip
your unicorn horn. If nothing interesting happens, quaff it and see.
Safe as houses. (Admittedly, not the most well-constructed houses,
but fairly safe).
Cheers,
bruce
msa...@cc.jyu.fi
> dungeon level generated. On the other hand, items have no "difficulty"
> attached to them, only a probability of appearing. That's why you're just
> as likely to find a scroll of amnesia on level 1 as you are to find it in
> Gehennom.
Yes, and that's good, because it means you can find that wand of wishing
or Sunsword right there in the first room of the dungeon (both have
happened to me - too bad the Sunsword killed my tourist instantly)
--
Mikko Saari msa...@cc.jyu.fi
NH 3.3.0W D Rog/Val/Wiz [+ )+ 2+ P S+ D p $ t- s+ W+ E- PS-- PP G+ C
I+ !@W N !Y X So++ Sp !sb wb- Goal: ascending before 31/12/00!
The best of funny r.g.r.n posts at http://www.iki.fi/msaari/nethack/
Jukka Markus Kuusisto
>"Boudewijn Waijers" <Kro...@win.tue.nl> writes:
>> "Jukka Markus Kuusisto" <jkuu...@gamma.hut.fi> wrote in message
>> news:jkuusist....@snakemail.hut.fi...
>>
>> > scrolls. Potions I test by dipping and drinking (I try to make sure that
>> > there are no monsters near, in case it's paralysis or sleep). I try to
>>
>> I used to do that some time ago, but I stopped trying out potions for the
>> chance of them being potions of polymorph, after I lost a promising
>> character that way a while ago.
>Ah, but this won't happen if you test them by dipping before you
>drink. Dip something useless first.
Exactly, the "dipping and drinking" I mention above means that I do just
that.
>If it doesn't polymorph, dip your unicorn horn.
And name the potion (the type, not just the one potion) before you do, so
that you know next time.
-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Boudewijn Waijers
news:m3zortr...@localhost.dialup.org...
> I wrote: <Kro...@win.tue.nl>
>> I used to do that some time ago, but I stopped trying out potions for
the
>> chance of them being potions of polymorph, after I lost a promising
>> character that way a while ago.
> Ah, but this won't happen if you test them by dipping before you
> drink. Dip something useless first. If it doesn't polymorph, dip
> your unicorn horn. If nothing interesting happens, quaff it and see.
> Safe as houses. (Admittedly, not the most well-constructed houses,
> but fairly safe).
Sounds quite reasonable to me, now that I think about it... :-)
I see only one problem: I tend to try things out regardless only with a
low level character, say, at most level 3 or 4. By then, I normally don't
have a unicorn horn yet.
Ben Allen
>On 18 Mar 2000 15:13:47 +0000, dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell)
>wrote:
>
>
>>Neither class nor experience level has any bearing on the
>>probabilities of random generation of items. There's different sets of
>>probabilities of object classes in Gehennom, on the Rogue level, in
>>containers, and everywhere else, and then fixed probabilities within
>>those classes; they're applied without prejudice.
>
>And that's exactly what bothers me. Nobody thinks twice about the fact
>that on the first two dungeon levels, one usually doesn't find
>anything more dangerous than goblins, jackals, and moresuch; this is
>considered "OK". But is it such a great leap to imagine making the
>generation of items (and bad effects from things like fountains) a
>little dependent on the experience level? Making the random generation
>of items a little dependent on the class, so that the hapless monk or
>wizard doesn't find swords only? Since character's skills are
>restricted, I think the generation should take their possible skills a
>little into consideration, if only in the beginning. So newbies (and
>unlucky characters) don't die on the first two levels, but on levels
>4-5. Would that be so horrible?
>
>--
Okay, it seems to me that you're missing the fundamental difference between
monsters and items. Monsters try to kill you whether you want them to or not;
items will only kill you if you specifically ask them. Seems to me that what's
got you annoyed is that you got burnt (literally) when you put a bit too much
trust in the wholesomeness of items. Getting killed like that is, and I cannot
stress this enough, entirely your own damn fault. Part of the Nethack idea, at
least to me, is that the game isn't structured around the player - items
aren't put there for your use, they're simply there, and if you think you can
extract usefulness from them, go right ahead - but make sure you know what
you're getting into.
Nethack is NOT a friendly game. Nethack is a mean, nasty, evil game,
especially towards players too weak to defend themselves, and instead of
whining about how it's so much more complex now than it was in 2.x, you should
view any game where you got a character to survive for considerably longer
than usual as a victory.
As for me, I'm much much worse at the older roguelikes (hack, rogue itself,
*spit* moria) than I am at the "modern" nethacks (I started when 3.1.3 was
current, and now play 3.2.3, 3.3.0 being too buggy and a bit too unbalanced
for my tastes), since in my opinion the older roguelikes involved much more
random chance (ex. rogue, where two rings of slow digestion and a scroll of
scare monster pretty much equalled a guaranteed win, but where any character
who didn't find these could pretty much forget it). In 3.2.3, I've gotten to
where about 1 in 5 of my characters either ascend or get left at the castle,
just because, mostly through experimentation, I figured out the various
methods to keep characters alive. Really, the only thing I think is actually
*unfair* in nethack right now is the vibrating square. A non-spoiled player
would have to be extremely lucky to figure that one out, or else extremely
well-versed in the nethack source material (Zork, etc.).
Oh yes, and as to your rarely-used weapons complaint, they seem less
superfluous if you think of the game as being less of a player-oriented puzzle
or challenge and more of a self-contained toy world. Those weapons aren't
there for YOU to use, they're just there for whoever happens to pick them up,
be they @ or h or o. The reason why your character can get skill in them is
because their purpose in "life" hasn't always been to hack-n-slash in the
Dungeons of Doom - plus, it's always nice to know, in an emergency, say
you've only seen one longsword all game, and you're wielding it, AND it just
got rusted, that you can pick up that J. Random Polearm over there and be at
least fairly competent with it. Sure, all your ascension-quality characters
are going to have essentially the same gear, unless you're playing some weird
challenge game, but that's been a "problem" with roguelikes since the
beginning.
eh... I'm ranting. feh.
--
Ben Allen, hi...@uswest.remove.this.net
"Rainy days make you feel gloomy
And sunny days make you feel happy
But you can still have fun on a rainy day!"
HOORAY!!!!!!
GUN!
Ben Allen
>>You mentioned reaching Gehennom with "careful behavior". Well, most of
>>the things you complain about are "reckless behavior"; reading un'ID'd
>>scrolls (I *never* read a scroll or drink a potion unless I know what it
>>is. *Never*.), dipping in magic fountains (One could play it safe and
>>only dip in the Minetown and Oracle fountains, which AFAIK are never
>>magical, and in pools of water, and dilute most potions using a unicorn
>>horn).
>
>Are you seriously telling me that everyone on this NG who's ascended a
>character plays this way? That they all run around with several pages
>worth of stuff (if a scroll of identify has yet to show) without
>having tried out a single thing? I find that a little hard to believe.
I do. Most people do. Patience, d00d. It's not like scrolls of identify are
hard to find (generally, you can figure out what they are by minetown at the
very latest), and what's wrong with carrying around unidentified items for a
little while?
Incidentally, and I know I'm opening myself up to ridicule by asking, but are
you a troll? If you are, you're one of the better ones, since your schtick has
made *me* at least question my fundamental notions of what the game should be.
Kudos. Or something like that.i
(although the instant-gratification thing you seem to be pushing is just about
the easiest way to ruin the game, no matter how you look at it.)
Jukka Markus Kuusisto
>Really, the only thing I think is actually *unfair* in nethack right now is
>the vibrating square. A non-spoiled player would have to be extremely lucky
>to figure that one out, or else extremely well-versed in the nethack source
>material (Zork, etc.).
Not necessarily, the information can be obtained from the Oracle.
-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Paul Vader
>Seriously? In exchange for a little care in inventory management,
>/oCancellation are a very powerful tool. Dragons and disenchanters are
>rendered Mostly Harmless just for starters.
I've never experimented with one enough to know when it will work (and
philosophically, I won't read the spoilers for stuff like that), so it's
not something I much bother with. And up until now, by the time I've run
into dragons or disenchanters, I've developed a good way to get rid of
them. According to my logfile, I've only been killed by dragons twice out
of about a hundred games since I started playing 3.3.0. I've been killed by
dwarves or Rothes about 8 times more often. Oh, and one ascension!
>
>Monster special abilities are what makes them dangerous in the middle
>and late game. Green slime, fooatrices... in the early game, they're a
>nice hedge against nymphs, rust monsters and gremlins too.
You can cancel nymphs? I'll have to think about that one, should I actually
ever identify a cancellation wand at the stage where they're still a big
pain in the ass.
>
>shouldn't be discarded just because is allows you to shoot yourself in
>the foot. Write DANGER WILL ROBINSON CANCELLATION DO NOT PUT ME IN BOH
>on them if you have to, but don't chuck 'em.
I do name them, something very close to that in fact. *
Paul Vader
>Are you seriously telling me that everyone on this NG who's ascended a
>character plays this way? That they all run around with several pages
>worth of stuff (if a scroll of identify has yet to show) without
>having tried out a single thing? I find that a little hard to believe.
Believe it. Until I have a few blessed identifies (using the 26 gold piece
method to identify them, and sacrificing a few potions for holy water), I
never touch scrolls or potions. It's quite common in my bones files to find
ghosts with bags full of 20 potions and as many scrolls. *
Peter Snelling
>
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 08:44:01 GMT, David Hauptmann <h044...@rz.hu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> >>You mentioned reaching Gehennom with "careful behavior". Well, most of
> >>the things you complain about are "reckless behavior"; reading un'ID'd
> >>scrolls (I *never* read a scroll or drink a potion unless I know what it
> >>is. *Never*.), dipping in magic fountains (One could play it safe and
> >>only dip in the Minetown and Oracle fountains, which AFAIK are never
> >>magical, and in pools of water, and dilute most potions using a unicorn
> >>horn).
> >
> >character plays this way? That they all run around with several pages
> >worth of stuff (if a scroll of identify has yet to show) without
> >having tried out a single thing? I find that a little hard to believe.
>
> hard to find (generally, you can figure out what they are by minetown at the
> very latest), and what's wrong with carrying around unidentified items for a
> little while?
Me too. Sometimes I do read an unidentified scroll
on the first level (when I have nothing to lose yet),
but if I'm playing seriously, I don't.
Identifying items has been discussed here before, but not recently in
one single thread. Please post any additional ideas. My strategy for
identifying things (when identify scrolls are lacking) is:
(spoilers, obviously)
General:
-------
Pets don't step (or are reluctant to step on) cursed items.
Otherwise, find the blessed status by dropping them on any
altar. This is a major value of pets before you find altars.
Scrolls:
-------
Find the price (taking charisma into account), ensure they're
blessed or uncursed, then read all scrolls worth less than $100.
If you take precautions against fire and destroy armor, you can
also read scrolls worth $100. Don't read the more expensive
scrolls until you've identified them. Just remember, the more
expensive scrolls are the good ones you want to save (charging)
and the bad ones you want to avoid (amnesia). So wait until
you've identified them.
Other tips: The ones you find in "closets" are teleportation.
If picking up scrolls in stores to find out the price, ensure
you can pay for scare monster...
Potions
-------
Wait until you have a unicorn horn. Then dip something useless
(or something you want to polymorph) to check for polymorph, and
then dip the unicorn horn to eliminate some nasty ones. Be sure
to name it before you dip (I wish nethack prompted you here).
Ensure they're non-cursed, and then quaff when safe (remember
that paralysis doesn't cancel). If you have a lot of potions
and no unicorn horn, you're probably safe enough to quaff the
non-cursed ones if you've got poison resistance and a spare
potion of extra healing.
Other tips: The ones left by nymphs are generally object detection.
The "wine cellar" has a lot of potions of booze. Water is always clear.
Rings
-----
Try on all non-cursed rings briefly. This identifies most non-zero
charged rings. Do this when you have:
less than full hitpoints to check for regeneration
near a wimpy tame/peaceful monster to check for conflict
These are two key ones I want to identify early. If you want to
be more thorough, when the opportunity presents itself:
before jumping into a teleport trap to find teleport control
near known mimics to find protection from SC
when invisible / near something invisible to find see invis
near a known hidden door to find searching
before carefully attacking a red mold to find fire
before carefully attacking a brown mold to find cold
before being engulfed to find slow digestion
And so on... The key point is to look at a wimpy invisible
monster attacking you not as an annoyance, but as an opportunity
to identify a ring. Don't leave unknown rings on long, in case
they're polymorph.
Other tips: Nazguls carry cursed rings of invisibility.
You can drop duplicate rings down sinks for a helpful message,
but I generally save them for a polypile.
Amulets
-------
Try on any non-cursed amulet, and leave it on, unless anything
bad happens (restful sleep, strangulation). Also, any amulet
you find that's cursed name "cursed" (non-specific), and don't
try one on even if uncursed. The bad amulets are cursed 90%
of the time. If you see monsters through walls, it's ESP, so
watch for this. The cost in food of wearing a useless amulet
(like poison resistance when you already have the intrinsic) is
generally worth the nice surprise of finding life saving.
Armor
-----
Try on any non-cursed armor. The only thing to watch out for
is certain helmets which auto-curse:
The dunce cap is always conical
The helm of opposite alignment.
The helmoOA is one of four types: plumed, etched, crested, and
visored. It is cursed 90% of the time, so you might want to
take the chance on an uncuresd helm if you have a way of
removing it. However, in addition to auto-cursing, it also
removes protection, so once you've got protection, it's
probably not worth the chance.
After trying on new armor, watch for certain effects like
ESP, speed, or fumbling. Also test for jumping.
Spellbooks
----------
If you're a fighter, don't read spellbooks. OK, perhaps read
one for the sole purpose of confusing yourself after it burns
out. If you're a wizard, read all non-cursed spellbooks.
Other classes should be careful it's safe to do so. Ideally,
check the price in stores, and try to bless the expensive
ones before reading, since they're difficult to read.
Bug: In 3.3.0, there is a bug with partially read spell books.
If prompted that the spellbook is difficult, you should probably
continue (once this is fixed, probably avoid those unless you're
a wizard).
Wands
-----
Test them immediately. It's generally worth it to potentially
waste a charge to understand what it is. I generally Engrave
something with my finger "-", and then add to the engraving
with the wand, to get a helpful message to identify the wand.
See wan1-330.txt for a list of the effects. The is safe
(except for create monster), most identify that way, and the
ones which don't aren't too important. For lightning, I don't
engrave anything since that blinds you (just press enter).
Some wands only partially identify:
Engraving Vanishes: cancellation, make invisible, teleportation
Zap them at a cursed item to identify.
Bugs stop moving: death, sleep
Zap them at a monster when you're safe from bounces.
Give no message: locking, opening, probing, undead turning,
nothing, maybe secret door detection.
I generally ignore these, but you can test for them by
zapping at an open door, a locked chest, a monster, and
a corpse (possibly all with one zap).
Other people advocate just zapping without Engraving to identify.
Ideally, at the open door, locked chest, monster, cursed item, etc.
This identifies almost everything in one turn, but takes a little
more preparation. If you do this, be careful with bounces and
with polymorph.
Tools
-----
Apply bags to test for tricks. Then if it's non-cursed,
check for holding by putting stuff in it when slightly
burdened. Finally use the price to tell between oilskin
and plain sacks.
Apply every whistle, flute, horn, and harp. Name the normal
ones "normal" (or something), so if you find another non-normal
one, you'll know. I don't bother with drums.
Check the price of lamps. Name the cheap ones "normal". Or
just light it, and see how long it lasts. But don't rub unless
it's blessed.
Gems
----
Kick grey ones before picking them up. If they're not too
heavy, pick them up, name them "flint/luckstone?".
Name the ones from a glass golem "glass".
You can also identify some by engraving, but I don't bother.
Try to use a full identify to fully identify them. Identified
gems are more valuable to shopkeepers and unicorns.
--
Peter Snelling, P.Eng. (snel...@nortelnetworks.com)
Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada
Standard Disclaimer: My views only, not my employer's
Dylan O'Donnell
> Bug: In 3.3.0, there is a bug with partially read spell books.
> If prompted that the spellbook is difficult, you should probably
> continue (once this is fixed, probably avoid those unless you're
> a wizard).
Umm. Only Wizards will _get_ the "difficult" prompt; they're deemed
to be experienced enough to recognise a high-level book when they
see one. Other classes just read blindly on, hoping for the best...
--
Dylan O'Donnell : "For the sun will rise, and the moon will set,
Demon Internet : And you learn how to settle for what you get.
Resident, Forgotten Office : It will all go on, if we're here or not,
http://www.fysh.org/~psmith/ : So who cares? So what?" -- Fred Ebb, "Cabaret"
Gary D. Young
> Wands
> -----
> Test them immediately. It's generally worth it to potentially
> waste a charge to understand what it is. I generally Engrave
> something with my finger "-", and then add to the engraving
> with the wand, to get a helpful message to identify the wand.
> See wan1-330.txt for a list of the effects. The is safe
> (except for create monster), most identify that way, and the
> ones which don't aren't too important. For lightning, I don't
> engrave anything since that blinds you (just press enter).
> Some wands only partially identify:
A very excellent identification spoiler, Peter. Though in this
particular paragraph, I suggest engraving "Elbereth" with
your fingers since it at least exercises wisdom while you're
at it. Engrave it with Magicbane if you can, and engrave it
next to the up stairs on a new level you're exploring. That
way you can notice when the inscription is teleported elsewhere
and save a charge on teleport wands.
I normally wipe out the previous engraving, but I suppose it
doesn't really matter much.
Signed,
The Inscriber of Owlbreath....
Curly++
> On 14 Mar 2000 16:59:53 +0000, dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell)
> wrote:
> What about notes taking? We had several discussions about this in the
> past. Suggestion (Someone with a better knowledge of the English
> language should take care of the final wording.):
>
> n Notes
>
> n++ I take notes of every dungeon feature and take copies of my
> list of discoveries so that I don't have to genocide 'h'.
>
> n+ I use the call feature a lot to prepare against mind flayers
> and take notes of every useful dungeon feature, including
> fountains or sinks.
>
> n I have a list of shops and altars, I note what intrinsics I
> have.
>
> n- Notes are cheating: Mind flayers are part of the game, and
> there has to be a use for potions of enlightenment. I don't
> like static dungeons anyway.
>
> !n I always play in a single session and remember everything.
n++++ I tee my game and can replay the movie to any turn.
n+++ I hacked the code to write my notes for me.
?n I keep seeing "There is no such scroll!"
Well, ok, it's not realistic, but reading the code is FUN!
--
Oisin "Curly++" Curtin ocu...@SPAM.usa.net
Surface Liaison, Minetown Digger Send no SPAM.
http://pages.infinit.net/curlypp/
Roger Powell
Peter Snelling wrote:
[Much excellent advice snippped..]
>
> Potions
> -------
> Wait until you have a unicorn horn. Then dip something useless
> (or something you want to polymorph) to check for polymorph, and
> then dip the unicorn horn to eliminate some nasty ones. Be sure
> to name it before you dip (I wish nethack prompted you here).
> Ensure they're non-cursed, and then quaff when safe (remember
> that paralysis doesn't cancel). If you have a lot of potions
> and no unicorn horn, you're probably safe enough to quaff the
> non-cursed ones if you've got poison resistance and a spare
> potion of extra healing.
>
> Other tips: The ones left by nymphs are generally object detection.
> The "wine cellar" has a lot of potions of booze. Water is always clear.
>
I don't normally wait for a unicorn horn to identify potions, as
long as I have a dart or arrow (available from traps) or a crossbow
bolt. Dip the item in the unknown potion and if it is a potion
of sickness, it will identify itself by poisoning the item -- If
it is polymorph, it will "morph" the item.
One trap to avoid: Say that you've identified the potion of sickness,
but have not yet identified the potion of polymorph. Be careful
*not* to dip that poisoned dart/arrow into an unknown potion, because
you'll waste potions of healing/extra/full (they dissolve the poison.)
Dip some other item, such as an unpoisoned arrow, or even better a
useless or duplicate tool (such as a spare skeleton key.) Best would
be a duplicate magic tool (like a 2nd unicorn horn) since you have
a chance of getting a magic marker.
OK - So you have unknown potions that are not sickness/polymorph.
Go into a shop and pick up an unpaid item then move towards the
door. The shopkeeper will block the door. Now quaff the potion.
This minimizes your vulnerability to paralysis and sleep, since the
nasties won't be able to get into the shop while you are disabled.
As for booze/confusion/hallucination - don't move, just
wait out the effects. Hallucination takes a while to wait out, so
be prepared to eat a meal while you wait!
> Rings
> -----
> Try on all non-cursed rings briefly. This identifies most non-zero
> charged rings. Do this when you have:
> less than full hitpoints to check for regeneration
> near a wimpy tame/peaceful monster to check for conflict
> These are two key ones I want to identify early. If you want to
> be more thorough, when the opportunity presents itself:
> before jumping into a teleport trap to find teleport control
> near known mimics to find protection from SC
Just be very careful trying out an unknown ring in a shop, unless
you have already identified the ring of conflict! It's OK to
try it as long as you are several squares away from the shopkeeper.
> when invisible / near something invisible to find see invis
> near a known hidden door to find searching
> before carefully attacking a red mold to find fire
> before carefully attacking a brown mold to find cold
> before being engulfed to find slow digestion
> And so on... The key point is to look at a wimpy invisible
> monster attacking you not as an annoyance, but as an opportunity
> to identify a ring. Don't leave unknown rings on long, in case
> they're polymorph.
>
> Other tips: Nazguls carry cursed rings of invisibility.
> You can drop duplicate rings down sinks for a helpful message,
> but I generally save them for a polypile.
>
One more note to add to the excellent advice above: Should you
be lucky enough to find a wand of enlightenment, you can identify
a lot of rings through trying them on and zapping the wand.
IMO - Peter's post is an outstanding list of techniques that
ought to be adopted by everyone who is trying to improve their
game. Nethack is a game of many things - one of which is
"invemtory management". Learning to separate the useful items
from the junk improves the player's ability to carry just the
good stuff and avoid being burdened.
Joel Gluth
<SNIP/>
> Are you seriously telling me that everyone on this NG who's ascended a
> character plays this way? That they all run around with several pages
> worth of stuff (if a scroll of identify has yet to show) without
> having tried out a single thing? I find that a little hard to believe.
To a certain extent, yes.
I never read unidentified scrolls, unless they're pushing me into
Strained and I've made the right precautions. This happens about one
game in ten or so. Note that scrolls of earth, teleport and identify
are quite easy to identify anyway, without reading them or casting the
identify spell.
Wands that don't make themselves obvious by engraving or other tests
don't get randomly zapped. Neither in general do they go into bags of
holding, although engraving will at least eliminate the obvious
dangerous one.
I don't wear unidentified rings, again with the exception of one turn
trying on uncursed ones to see if they're anything obvious (mostly
this is just a check for levitation, which is too useful to pass up).
Do not even get me started on potions. Ownership of a unicorn horn
will lead me to consider random quaffing of *uncursed* potions after
removing my body armour and cloak, but only if they're becoming a
weight problem. I extend that to blessed potions too if I have a mummy
wrapping :)
I ascend relatively frequently, I think (I don't always post YAAPen,
though there have been a few), and I feel this is a result of being
very, very careful. Patience and preparation are IMHO the keys to
successful Nethacking.
YMMOCV, but I suspect this is generally true of the people you're
talking about.
Hack on hack on hack on,
--
Joel Gluth // Software Engineer, N-space. http://www.n-space.com.au
The AWT is getting better. "Write once, debug everywhere!"
-- Kirk Hogenson, but origin unknown
Raisse the Thaumaturge
> Wands that don't make themselves obvious by engraving or other tests
> don't get randomly zapped. Neither in general do they go into bags of
> holding, although engraving will at least eliminate the obvious
> dangerous one.
Any wand that doesn't make your previous engraving vanish is safe to
put into a bag of holding. Even if it's cancellation: if you just
"write in the dust" with it over (or added to) a previous engraving
it's at zero charges and it won't make your bag explode.
Raisse, killed by an exploding large box
--
@ a human or elf (peaceful thaumaturge called Raisse)
-----------< Ascended (3.3.0): W, trying: AVS >------------
ir...@valdyas.org (myself) http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Cody Hatch
rec.games.roguelike.nethack said:
>The blanking/uncursing/+0ing is potentially useful, but cancellation
>is almost as useful as teleportation as a defensive tool IMO, and
>shouldn't be discarded just because is allows you to shoot yourself in
>the foot. Write DANGER WILL ROBINSON CANCELLATION DO NOT PUT ME IN BOH
>on them if you have to, but don't chuck 'em.
Here's an example of an Angband feature it would be nice to have. The
ability to inscribe stuff with !*!*!* would be very useful here. Which,
for those unaware, means the game would query you three times before
letting you select the option. So you'd have to put the wand in the bag,
then say yes three times before it happened...
Cody Hatch
rec.games.roguelike.nethack said:
<snip>
>Okay, it seems to me that you're missing the fundamental difference
>between monsters and items. Monsters try to kill you whether you want
>them to or not; items will only kill you if you specifically ask them.
>Seems to me that what's got you annoyed is that you got burnt
>(literally) when you put a bit too much trust in the wholesomeness of
>items. Getting killed like that is, and I cannot stress this enough,
>entirely your own damn fault. Part of the Nethack idea, at least to me,
>is that the game isn't structured around the player - items aren't put
>there for your use, they're simply there, and if you think you can
>extract usefulness from them, go right ahead - but make sure you know
>what you're getting into.
I agree. The issue is essentially the same as if someone kept sticking a
fork into every electrical socket they found, then complaining that it
hurt. The obvious solution is to NOT STICK THE FORK INTO THE SOCKET. Or
in the case of Nethack, if you get killed drinking at fountains, don't
drink at fountains. I mean, duh.
>Oh yes, and as to your rarely-used weapons complaint, they seem less
>superfluous if you think of the game as being less of a player-oriented
>puzzle or challenge and more of a self-contained toy world. Those
>weapons aren't there for YOU to use, they're just there for whoever
>happens to pick them up, be they @ or h or o. The reason why your
>character can get skill in them is because their purpose in "life"
>hasn't always been to hack-n-slash in the Dungeons of Doom - plus, it's
>always nice to know, in an emergency, say you've only seen one longsword
>all game, and you're wielding it, AND it just got rusted, that you can
>pick up that J. Random Polearm over there and be at least fairly
>competent with it. Sure, all your ascension-quality characters are going
>to have essentially the same gear, unless you're playing some weird
>challenge game, but that's been a "problem" with roguelikes since the
>beginning.
Perhaps it has, but it IS solvable. Nethack is actually fairly alone in
this respect--both in it being true, and even more so, in not trying to fix
it. Any of the more balanced versions and/or variants of Angband have a
wide variety in suitable "ascension kits". Major exceptions is the latest
dev. version of Z, in which the Chainsword is amazingly powerful, and not
all that rare, and standard vanilla Angband, in which Ringil is really the
best weapon in the game. But the first will soon be fixed, I expect--it
seems to be a side effect of the new combat system and it IS a development
version. The second isn't currently being worked on, but most people never
find Ringil, so it doesn't matter. I know ADOM, last time I played it, had
several different weapons suitable for winning the game. I suspect the
same is true of Crawl and Omega as well.
Cody