The Illustrated NetHack Monsters

[Ville Saalo]

Greetings,

I've created a new site that should be of some interest to you: The
Illustrated NetHack Monsters: https://nethackmonsters.art/monsters/

Some 20 years ago I used to have a nethackmonsters-dot-tk domain where I
had just collected a list of links to representative monster images around
the web. That site expired a long time ago but the idea stuck with me, and
now with the rise of AI image generators I could produce all the content
for the site myself!

More specifically, I've been using DALL-E 3 to create these NetHack
monster images. For each monster I've asked for two different images: one
that looks like it's from some dramatic fantasy movie, and another that
looks like it could be from an old video game. As of writing this I've got
images of 116 different monsters in there.

Check it out and let me know what you think. I even figured out how to use
the Usenet all over again just to let everyone here know about this!
Cheers,

-Ville

[Ben Collver]

On 2023-12-01, Ville Saalo <ville...@iki.fi> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I've created a new site that should be of some interest to you: The
> Illustrated NetHack Monsters: https://nethackmonsters.art/monsters/

Hi!

I enjoyed this very much. Thank you for putting it together. Way fun.
:-) I hope they link to it from nethack.org.

-Ben

[Ben Collver]

On 2023-12-01, Ville Saalo <ville...@iki.fi> wrote:

> Check it out and let me know what you think.

p.s.

I think you may have reversed the genders of the incubus and succubus.

[Janis Papanagnou]

On 01.12.2023 15:37, Ville Saalo wrote:
> I've created a new site that should be of some interest to you: The
> Illustrated NetHack Monsters: https://nethackmonsters.art/monsters/

Not sure whether you are concerned about that, but in my browser
I don't see any art. - What I see you can see in this screenshot:
http://volatile.gridbug.de/nethackmonster.png

Janis

[Janis Papanagnou]

On 01.12.2023 15:37, Ville Saalo wrote:
>

> Check it out and let me know what you think.

Have you tried to create a variant of these images with reduced size
to see whether these images can also be used as tiles in the game?

Janis

[Ben Collver]

That may be because the images are in .webp format.

I verified that i can view the images in lynx with the following
configuration.

~/.mailcap

image/webp; ~/bin/display-image.sh %s; nametemplate=%s.webp

~/bin/display-image.sh

#!/bin/sh
test -n "$DISPLAY" && display "$1" || (chafa "$1"; read pause)

[John McCue]

Ville Saalo <ville...@iki.fi> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I've created a new site that should be of some interest to you: The
> Illustrated NetHack Monsters: https://nethackmonsters.art/monsters/

very nice, saved for reference!

<snip>

> -Ville

--
[t]csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
- Paraphrasing Star Wars

[Janis Papanagnou]

On 01.12.2023 20:47, Ben Collver wrote:
> On 2023-12-01, Janis Papanagnou <janis_pap...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 01.12.2023 15:37, Ville Saalo wrote:
>>> I've created a new site that should be of some interest to you: The
>>> Illustrated NetHack Monsters: https://nethackmonsters.art/monsters/
>>
>> Not sure whether you are concerned about that, but in my browser
>> I don't see any art. - What I see you can see in this screenshot:
>> http://volatile.gridbug.de/nethackmonster.png
>
> That may be because the images are in .webp format.

Most likely.

>
> I verified that i can view the images in lynx with the following
> configuration.
>
> ~/.mailcap
>
> image/webp; ~/bin/display-image.sh %s; nametemplate=%s.webp
>
> ~/bin/display-image.sh
>
> #!/bin/sh
> test -n "$DISPLAY" && display "$1" || (chafa "$1"; read pause)

$ chafa
ksh: chafa: not found [No such file or directory]

Trying to fix one problem with another one? - No, thanks. :-)

Janis

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 20:00:38 +0100, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> On 01.12.2023 15:37, Ville Saalo wrote:
>>
>> Check it out and let me know what you think.

It never ceases to amaze me, what a selected few people can create in
artistry. The "simpler" drawings on the left side are really well done
and in many cases fetch an impression very alike to the one I have in
mind when playing. The detailed images on the right side with fitting
backgrounds are just mind-blowing. I have to forcibly drag me to the
next one, because by continuing to look at an image I seem to detect
more interesting details by the minute. But: I really don't know, if
I'll ever be able to kill another red naga hatchling, again... ;-)

> Have you tried to create a variant of these images with reduced size
> to see whether these images can also be used as tiles in the game?

The images on the right side would need the background to be removed
to allow for consistent dungeon look and feel. A homunculus fighting
alongside a wood nymph wood make a very funny background combination.

I tried Baalzebub, because it is one with fewer background details and
actively faces the player. - Which IMHO would be also important when
playing with very detailed (and not just stylized) tiles. - The least
resolution, where Baalzebub keeps some recognizability, seems to be
the largest "absurd tiles" resolution 128x128 pixels. I don't know, if
anybody ever played such a resolution on a regular basis.

Some drawings on the left side (like Demogorgon) are recognizable
down to 64x64 pixels. Few (like clay golem) might even work at 32x32
pixels. But for /easy/ recognizability in the game, they all show too
much detail. And the great level of detail of Ville's images, IMHO,
is their most important appeal.

@Ville Saalo:
Thank you very much for sharing! :-)

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

[Janis Papanagnou]

On 02.12.2023 07:26, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 20:00:38 +0100, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 01.12.2023 15:37, Ville Saalo wrote:
>>>
>>> Check it out and let me know what you think.

Overall, amazing.

There's one or two creature images that look, literally, like a heap
of sh** - IMO, their design should be reconsidered.

It appears to me that there's various types of images; some are very
"realistic", while others are in a comic style (even within the same
column). Depending on the intention of these images it may or may not
be an issue.

> [..] But: I really don't know, if

> I'll ever be able to kill another red naga hatchling, again... ;-)

They're as sweet as the gremlins from the movie. :-)

>
>> Have you tried to create a variant of these images with reduced size
>> to see whether these images can also be used as tiles in the game?
>
> The images on the right side would need the background to be removed
> to allow for consistent dungeon look and feel. A homunculus fighting
> alongside a wood nymph wood make a very funny background combination.
>
> I tried Baalzebub, because it is one with fewer background details and
> actively faces the player. - Which IMHO would be also important when
> playing with very detailed (and not just stylized) tiles. - The least
> resolution, where Baalzebub keeps some recognizability, seems to be
> the largest "absurd tiles" resolution 128x128 pixels. I don't know, if
> anybody ever played such a resolution on a regular basis.

Myself I'm not playing with tiles; it was merely a question for the
gain of folks who use tiles. I think artwork plainly on a web page
is nice but it could be better cherished if it gets integrated in a
"daily use" context like the roguelike games. That was my thought.

>
> Some drawings on the left side (like Demogorgon) are recognizable
> down to 64x64 pixels. Few (like clay golem) might even work at 32x32
> pixels. But for /easy/ recognizability in the game, they all show too
> much detail. And the great level of detail of Ville's images, IMHO,
> is their most important appeal.

Thanks for your tests.

Given that existing tiles are also not generally recognizable (as
far as my perception goes) I wouldn't expect that detailed artwork
would be too bad at reduced size; but tiles would probably require
still some more refinements.

Janis

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 10:08:06 +0100, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> Myself I'm not playing with tiles; it was merely a question for the
> gain of folks who use tiles. I think artwork plainly on a web page
> is nice but it could be better cherished if it gets integrated in a
> "daily use" context like the roguelike games. That was my thought.

If the help system ever goes from text to (optionally) a html-based
system (or the like), such artful images (esp. from the right column)
could be incorporated into monster description info, IMHO.

[Current tileset variants]

> Given that existing tiles are also not generally recognizable (as
> far as my perception goes) I wouldn't expect that detailed artwork
> would be too bad at reduced size; but tiles would probably require
> still some more refinements.

Some tilesets are a bit too artful for my taste and therefore have some
problems wrt. recognizability, IMO. KingHack tiles, for instance, have
too many very small details, that are necessary to differentiate between
certain monsters or objects.

The default Nethack tileset, OTOH, displays very simple, but easily
recognizable graphics. They permit identification from well-chosen
color contrasts as much as from form. This /may/ be just me talking
after years of playing. But I remember being overwhelmed and glad,
when I first saw them. And thinking back, it took about no time to
get accustomed to them. And every time I tested another tileset I
immediately switched back to the default one. Never converted back to
playing ASCII characters, as well.

[David Chmelik]

Good site, but you've switched around incubus & succubus.

[David Chmelik]

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 14:37:40 -0000 (UTC), Ville Saalo wrote:

[Julian]

Are you sure? Mayube the succubus is just flat-chested.

[Ben Collver]

The display command is from ImageMagick and the chafa command is from
https://hpjansson.org/chafa/

If you want to get the most out of *nix, you'll need to learn how to
use your package manager.

-Ben

[Janis Papanagnou]

On 03.12.2023 22:25, Ben Collver wrote:
>
> The display command is from ImageMagick and the chafa command is from
> https://hpjansson.org/chafa/

Sadly you completely missed the point. - But thanks for trying.

>
> If you want to get the most out of *nix, you'll need to learn how to
> use your package manager.

What an arrogant attitude.

Trying to teach an old Unix guy? - Next time we'll probably hear
from you hints how to turn on the computer and how to use Google.

Janis

[RecRanger]

On Saturday, December 2, 2023 at 4:08:12 AM UTC-5, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 02.12.2023 07:26, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
> > On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 20:00:38 +0100, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> >> On 01.12.2023 15:37, Ville Saalo wrote:
> >>>

> > I tried Baalzebub, because it is one with fewer background details and
> > actively faces the player. - Which IMHO would be also important when
> > playing with very detailed (and not just stylized) tiles. - The least
> > resolution, where Baalzebub keeps some recognizability, seems to be
> > the largest "absurd tiles" resolution 128x128 pixels. I don't know, if
> > anybody ever played such a resolution on a regular basis.
> Myself I'm not playing with tiles; it was merely a question for the
> gain of folks who use tiles. I think artwork plainly on a web page
> is nice but it could be better cherished if it gets integrated in a
> "daily use" context like the roguelike games. That was my thought.

Put them on the wiki just so players can visualize what they are fighting.



--

[Ben Collver]

On 2023-12-03, Janis Papanagnou <janis_pap...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 03.12.2023 22:25, Ben Collver wrote:
>> The display command is from ImageMagick and the chafa command is from
>> https://hpjansson.org/chafa/
>
> Sadly you completely missed the point. - But thanks for trying.

Since you expressed gratitude for my effort... perhaps we could try
again. What was your point? And what point did you "hear" me make?

[Ville Saalo]

> Not sure whether you are concerned about that, but in my browser I don't
> see any art. - What I see you can see in this screenshot:
> http://volatile.gridbug.de/nethackmonster.png

Please try again now! I've added PNG and JPG versions (PNG for the retro
game look and JPG for the fantasy look) as fallback options in case your
browser doesn't understand the WebP format. :)

-Ville

[Ville Saalo]

> Good site, but you've switched around incubus & succubus.

Thanks, good catch, fixed!

-Ville

[Ville Saalo]

> Overall, amazing.
>
> There's one or two creature images that look, literally, like a heap of
> sh** - IMO, their design should be reconsidered.

Thank you for the honest feedback! :D I've updated some of the worst
offenders, please take a look again.

> It appears to me that there's various types of images; some are very
> "realistic", while others are in a comic style (even within the same
> column). Depending on the intention of these images it may or may not be
> an issue.

Yep, I admit that... Like I mentioned, I've been creating these images
with AI and it's struggling to be consistent in the style. I've got a
pretty good system set up now, but there are definitely images of
different "generations". For example, initially I thought I wanted images
that look more like "ASCII art", but it turns out the early ~1990s pixel
art look works better, at least to my eye. So there are different factors
in play. I kind of like it too, though, as it keeps it more varied and
interesting in a way.

-Ville

[Michael Meyer]

Ville Saalo <ville...@iki.fi> wrote:
> I've created a new site that should be of some interest to you: The
> Illustrated NetHack Monsters: https://nethackmonsters.art/monsters/

I'm impressed at how well it does the faux pixel art style. I thought
those image generators produced really wonky "pixels" that were all
different shapes and sizes and not really aligned to a grid -- I guess
the technology has improved a lot since I last saw it, because that
seems to still be true for many of them, but to a small enough degree
that they looks like believable pixel art at a glance (to me anyway --
maybe not to an experienced pixel art creator).

Interesting that the cockatrice looks rather like a griffin, and the
baluchitherium looks more like a mammoth than an actual baluchitherium
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/9/95/Baluchitherium.png).
I also like the massive escalation in menace from Keystone Kop to Kop
Sergeant (I guess because the phrase "Keystone Kop" was no longer
included in the prompt, so it lost the "comedy character" implication?).

- Michael