it took me 4 years to understand
Davyduck
finally understood
that trowing daggers and become expert in daggers can save your life.
I just never ever used them... i must be a little mentally slow. Only
playing Slashem made
me wonder about this...
--
Davy, "you feel a strange mental acuity"
BWIGLEY
news:1145978167.7...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Well, after 4 years playing nethack, 6 ascensions, millions of SD i
> finally understood
> that trowing daggers and become expert in daggers can save your
life.
> I just never ever used them... i must be a little mentally slow.
Only
> playing Slashem made
> me wonder about this...
You actually managed to ascend without using daggers? What classes
have you ascended?
Jove
>Well, after 4 years playing nethack, 6 ascensions, millions of SD i
>finally understood
>that trowing daggers and become expert in daggers can save your life.
>I just never ever used them... i must be a little mentally slow. Only
>playing Slashem made
>me wonder about this...
Sigged!
--
"Well, after 4 years playing nethack, 6 ascensions, millions of SD
I finally understood that throwing daggers and become expert in
daggers can save your life." - Davyduck
All the best, Joe "Jove" Bednorz
Little White Mouse
W, K and A, just BTW ;-)
--LWM
Link
I sometimes wonder if people should be encouraged to use missile
combat. Daggers are useful, but I wonder if they are being used as a
crutch. I think it might be useful to encourage people to melee often,
as I think that learning how to properly melee can help people avoid a
YASD.
Inlaw Biker
I have ascended every class and never became a dagger expert until the
final one, as a rogue.
It is a very good strategy, maybe too powerful. I would much rather
carry a pile of daggers than a bow and arrows.
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
>
> Davyduck wrote:
>> Well, after 4 years playing nethack, 6 ascensions, millions of SD i
>> finally understood
>> that trowing daggers and become expert in daggers can save your life.
>> I just never ever used them... i must be a little mentally slow. Only
>> playing Slashem made
>> me wonder about this...
>
> combat. Daggers are useful, but I wonder if they are being used as a
> crutch. I think it might be useful to encourage people to melee often,
> as I think that learning how to properly melee can help people avoid a
> YASD.
I'm sure some people are of the opinion that any melee combat at all is
basically a YASD in the making, and while I agree in the early game, I
don't think it remains the case forever... :)
I certainly find that there is a point in the game where I mostly stop
throwing daggers and switch to melee combat and using wands for ranged
attacks. Usually this is around the Castle, when I tend to have an AC
low enough that most things can't hurt me, and a stream of things to
kill such that if I just throw daggers, I will run out. After the VotD
I'm not likely to run out of daggers, but I am pumped enough that I don't
so much care, and there are lots of sharp turns in the Mazes. The monsters
I want to avoid in melee are:
* Rust monsters, at whom I zap wands (or just melee and
rustproof everything beforehand)
* Disenchanters, at whom I zap wands or spells if I have them
(arrows worked fine when I was a Ranger; if two went from +7 to +6,
I just let them go)
* (Master) mind flayers, who are an excellent candidate for daggers, but
wands and spells work fine too
* ;, who I can't just dagger because I don't get my daggers back
...and the Riders, I guess, but I don't like leaving +7 daggers scattered
around Astral if I can avoid it. I guess it is a difference in play style,
but I find it's important to be able to melee or at least cast offensive
spells once I hit the Castle, and use melee primarily through Gehennom.
I think most people learn to melee well before they really drink the missile
Kool-Aid, so I don't think that is a huge problem, but I guess I can see not
knowing techniques like stepping away from slow monster if you grew up
throwing daggers...
I think the right thing to encourage is "melee when appropriate" but there
seems to be more than one workable philosophy on just when that is.
Just my thoughts,
-r.
Jove
>
>Davyduck wrote:
>> Well, after 4 years playing nethack, 6 ascensions, millions of SD i
>> finally understood
>> that trowing daggers and become expert in daggers can save your life.
>> I just never ever used them... i must be a little mentally slow. Only
>> playing Slashem made
>> me wonder about this...
>>
>> --
>> Davy, "you feel a strange mental acuity"
>
>I sometimes wonder if people should be encouraged to use missile
>combat. Daggers are useful, but I wonder if they are being used as a
>crutch.
Learning more effective techniques is a crutch?
>I think it might be useful to encourage people to melee often,
Only if you want their characters to die a lot.
>as I think that learning how to properly melee can help people avoid a
>YASD.
If you're Expert with a darts/daggers the best way to fight at melee
range is to throw darts/daggers. Most people seem to use artifact melee
weapons as a crutch, even if they do much less damage.
The proper way to melee is not to do it. (See sig.)
--
Hwei Sheng TEOH: "What does it take to make a low-level wizard survive?"
"Retreat often. Don't ever fight hand to hand. If you cannot be hit, you
don't even *need* armour." Boudewijn Waijers
All the Best, Joe "Jove" Bednorz
Link
> The proper way to melee is not to do it. (See sig.)
Your favorite class seems to be the Wizard, which is a ranged class.
My favorite class seems to be the Monk, which is a melee class.
As a Monk user, I'm not convinced that melee combat is an automatic
deathwish. I also think that melee and ranged are both important, and
relying on ranged combat limits your options. I would argue that the
#1 cause of YASD is "people not being aware of all their options".
The best advice you can give to people is "be aware of all of the
options that are available to you". Encouraging people to use ranged
combat will make them less likely to learn their other options
(scrolls/potions/wands/tools/etc). Ranged attacks work extremely well
in most cases, thus people won't feel the need to learn their other
options. The problem here is that when they finally do get in a
difficult situation, they will YASD because the only thing that they
know how to do is throw missile weapons.
Dragontamer
IMO, listing alternatives to fighting (scrolls, potions, tools, etc.)
does not
help your argument at all :-p
--Dragontamer
Jove
>Jove wrote:
>> The proper way to melee is not to do it. (See sig.)
>
>
>Your favorite class seems to be the Wizard, which is a ranged class.
>My favorite class seems to be the Monk, which is a melee class.
Monks can get to basic skill:
- in attack spells, and start with a robe.
- Magic missile does damage based on XL. An XL 14 Monk casting
Magic missile does just as much damage as a Wizard:
- 8d6 = avg 28 per hit per monster.
- can get multiple hits on multiple monsters.
- and you're not getting hit back.
- with shuriken:
- light,
- base dmg of 4,
- can be poisoned,
- get the strength damage bonus,
- can be enchanted.
- difficult to find
- may vanish (depends on luck, buc, enchantment)
- Average 20 points of damage at +7, max str, poisoned, basic skill.
- with crossbow
- light
- base dmg of 4
- can be poisoned,
- can be enchanted.
- may vanish (depends on luck, buc, enchantment)
- Average damage of 14 at +7, poisoned, basic skill.
Every class can at least throw rocks/gems/glass. Glass does as much
damage as a rock and weighs 1/10 as much. It also gets the strength
damage bonus. 8 points of damage per throw. This ammunition is
everywhere.
Darts are also universally useful: a stack of blessed, poisoned, +7
darts thrown with strength 25 will still do 16 points of damage.
If the thought of losing darts is too much for you, throw daggers.
Elven daggers don't need rustproofing and can do up to 14 points of
damage.
Just because other roles have better ranged weapon attacks doesn't
make a Monk helpless at range. The big benefit of ranged attacks still
remains: You're not getting hit back.
Worst case you fight a monster at melee range that has 15 fewer Hp.
How can anyone possibly be against that?
>
>As a Monk user, I'm not convinced that melee combat is an automatic
>deathwish.
99% survival rate in melee combat means 46% chance of death after 60
melee combats. Combat at greater range is safer because you're less
likely to be hit back. Softening up a charging enemy with ranged
attacks improves your chances of surviving melee-range combat.
>I also think that melee and ranged are both important, and
>relying on ranged combat limits your options.
Relying exclusively, maybe. Expert missiles can do a lot more damage
than most melee weapons, even most artifacts. (Two-weaponing is the
exception because it also doubles damage bonuses.)
Melee-distance fighting is inherently more dangerous than fighting at
a greater distance. Fighting at range reduces your chances of being hit
back. Better AC becomes less necessary, which seems important for a
Monk.
>I would argue that the
>#1 cause of YASD is "people not being aware of all their options".
Agreed.
>
>The best advice you can give to people is "be aware of all of the
>options that are available to you".
Disagree. They won't listen to that because it's not directly useful.
(Heck, they'll wield a wimpy artifact rather than do four times as much
damage with a ranged weapon.)
>Encouraging people to use ranged
>combat will make them less likely to learn their other options
>(scrolls/potions/wands/tools/etc).
By that argument we shouldn't encourage people to improve anything.
("Don't use Grayswandir! Don't use Grayswandir!")
Those other options take more knowledge and practice to use as well.
I wouldn't worry about players over-relying on ranged attacks. It's
almost impossible to get them to try ranged attacks.
>Ranged attacks work extremely well
>in most cases, thus people won't feel the need to learn their other
>options.
Players don't feel that need now, with melee weapons. And fighting in
melee is generally what gets them killed.
>The problem here is that when they finally do get in a
>difficult situation, they will YASD because the only thing that they
>know how to do is throw missile weapons.
As opposed to YASDing even earlier due to relying on melee: "Run up
and hit something!"
A Ranger at Expert firing the starting +2 arrows will average 19
points of damage, at range. That same Ranger wielding +0 Dragonbane
will average 4 points of damage per hit. I cannot bring myself to
recommend 4 dmg only at melee range over 19 dmg at all ranges.
(Note: There is a math error in my earlier post.
2.5 * 7.5 = 18.75, not 15.
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/02234a76942372c5?hl=en&>
+0 arrows will average 14 points of damage when fired by an Expert
Ranger.)
I started out using ranged attacks to just soften up approaching
monsters. The monsters started dying before they even got to me. Dead
monster and no damage to me. What could be better?
Link
Listing alternatives to fighting shows the things that people won't try
if they are too busy using ranged combat. People need to learn how to
use alternatives to fighting, and ranged combat is not the way to
encourage this behavior.
Dragontamer
I don't see what this has to do with melee combat... except that
if you are too busy doing melee combat, you wouldn't use any
of those alternatives either. :-/
--Dragontamer
BWIGLEY
news:1146178298....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
And it is a lot more dangerous to be meleeing carelessly then using
ranged combat carelessly...
Link
> I started out using ranged attacks to just soften up approaching
> monsters. The monsters started dying before they even got to me. Dead
> monster and no damage to me. What could be better?
It would be better if it didn't require so many keyboard presses.
Why would I want to make all the extra keyboard presses required by
ranged combat, when I can hold down a single arrow key for melee
combat?
With ranged combat, I have to make two keyboard presses to launch
missiles every turn. Then after combat is over, the missiles are
usually scattered around the room. So I have to spend extra keyboard
presses to run around the room, so that I can spend extra keyboard
presses to pick up the missiles.
Jove
>It would be better if it didn't require so many keyboard presses.
>
>Why would I want to make all the extra keyboard presses required by
>ranged combat, when I can hold down a single arrow key for melee
>combat?
>
>With ranged combat, I have to make two keyboard presses to launch
>missiles every turn. Then after combat is over, the missiles are
>usually scattered around the room. So I have to spend extra keyboard
>presses to run across the room, so that I can spend extra keyboard
>presses to pick up the missiles.
Worse yet, proper use of ranged weapons will keep your character alive
longer. Even more keyboard presses! Probably best to kill your
character off as early as possible to avoid all those keypresses. Of
course, it will start all over again with more keypresses if you start a
new game.
kanze
[...]
> >I also think that melee and ranged are both important, and
> >relying on ranged combat limits your options.
> Relying exclusively, maybe. Expert missiles can do a lot
> more damage than most melee weapons, even most artifacts.
> (Two-weaponing is the exception because it also doubles
> damage bonuses.)
> Melee-distance fighting is inherently more dangerous than
> fighting at a greater distance. Fighting at range reduces
> your chances of being hit back.
On the other hand, all of the ranged attacts use vital
resources. You've got to go pick up those daggers, or loose
them; spell casting uses manna.
My best character to date was a Samurai. With -42AC, dual
weaponing a +7 Greyswandir and a +7 rust-proofed katana, melee
was the way to go with *most* monsters -- I had a stack of
daggers (which I never used) and could spell cast magic missle
and a couple of other attack spells with 0% failure, but I
generally preferred saving the manna for monsters that I didn't
want to get close to: MMF's, disenchangers, etc. Had I used
ranged attacts systematically, I probably would have found
myself without an available ranged attack when one of these
showed up. (I also had a couple of wands of death, but I saved
those for Rodney.)
Also, of course, I find it more fun:-).
--
James Kanze GABI Software
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
Janis Papanagnou
> On 27 Apr 2006 18:57:03 -0700, Link wrote:
>>Jove wrote:
>>
>>> I started out using ranged attacks to just soften up approaching
>>>monsters. The monsters started dying before they even got to me. Dead
>>>monster and no damage to me. What could be better?
>>
>>It would be better if it didn't require so many keyboard presses.
The user interface; you have a point. In principle.
But there may be even less key presses if you have the proficiency.
If firing into one direction shoots 2, 3, or even more daggers for
you. Then there is the ^A command that repeats your previous command.
>>Why would I want to make all the extra keyboard presses required by
>>ranged combat, when I can hold down a single arrow key for melee
>>combat?
See above.
>>With ranged combat, I have to make two keyboard presses to launch
>>missiles every turn. Then after combat is over, the missiles are
>>usually scattered around the room. So I have to spend extra keyboard
>>presses to run across the room, so that I can spend extra keyboard
>>presses to pick up the missiles.
Again you may fix that yourself; use autopickup with specific pickup
exceptions appropriately defined in your nethack options file. Then
just walk across the targets (which I would do anyway to inspect any
death drops).
> Worse yet, proper use of ranged weapons will keep your character alive
> longer. Even more keyboard presses! Probably best to kill your
> character off as early as possible to avoid all those keypresses. Of
> course, it will start all over again with more keypresses if you start a
> new game.
LOL! :-)
Janis
Link
> Worse yet, proper use of ranged weapons will keep your character alive
> longer. Even more keyboard presses! Probably best to kill your
> character off as early as possible to avoid all those keypresses. Of
> course, it will start all over again with more keypresses if you start a
> new game.
I can easily ascend Monks, with martial arts as the primary damage
source. Martial arts damage isn't very high, but the Monks still
manage to ascend.
Melee combat can be safely done. If melee combat cannot be safely
done, then I must have super-human powers that allow me to melee combat.
Dragontamer
Pasifist conduct has been done.
If Pascifist conduct cannot be safely done, then those guys must have
super-human
powers that allow them to have pascifist conduct.
(repeat logic with any other exceptionally hard conducts/challenges)
--Dragontamer
Jove
>I can easily ascend Monks, with martial arts as the primary damage
>source. Martial arts damage isn't very high, but the Monks still
>manage to ascend.
>
>Melee combat can be safely done. If melee combat cannot be safely
>done, then I must have super-human powers that allow me to melee combat.
Melee combat can be safely done. Ranged combat can be more safely
done.
--
The above text has been editted to serve my own nefarious ends.
Jove
>Jove wrote:
>
> [...]
>> >I also think that melee and ranged are both important, and
>> >relying on ranged combat limits your options.
>
>> Relying exclusively, maybe. Expert missiles can do a lot
>> more damage than most melee weapons, even most artifacts.
>> (Two-weaponing is the exception because it also doubles
>> damage bonuses.)
>
>> Melee-distance fighting is inherently more dangerous than
>> fighting at a greater distance. Fighting at range reduces
>> your chances of being hit back.
>
>On the other hand, all of the ranged attacts use vital
>resources. You've got to go pick up those daggers, or loose
>them; ^^^^^
|||||
lose
Picking up daggers as a Samurai? Samurai can 2.5 weapon with yumi and
ya: d4 arrows per firing. They weigh one-tenth as much as daggers and
can be poisoned. More damage even than two-weaponing.
Darts are better than daggers, if you can get to equal skill. (For
all except Rogues.) Darts weigh one-tenth as much and can be poisoned.
Yes, it's extra keystrokes to pick up the arrows. (Even if you use
autopickup and autopickup exceptions.) Your character will last longer
as well. The thought of using more keystrokes just so you have to type
even more must just kill your will to live.
> spell casting uses manna.
^^^^^
mana
Which regenerates. Worst case you end up fighting a weaker monster in
melee. What's wrong with that?
Heck, just throwing unskilled +0 darts is worth it at max strength.
>
>My best character to date was a Samurai. With -42AC, dual
>weaponing a +7 Greyswandir and a +7 rust-proofed katana, melee
>was the way to go with *most* monsters -- I had a stack of
>daggers (which I never used) and could spell cast magic missle
>and a couple of other attack spells with 0% failure, but I
>generally preferred saving the manna for monsters that I didn't
>want to get close to: MMF's, disenchangers, etc. Had I used
>ranged attacts systematically, I probably would have found
>myself without an available ranged attack when one of these
>showed up. (I also had a couple of wands of death, but I saved
>those for Rodney.)
Samurai can 2.5 weapon with yumi and ya, two-weapon with other
bows/arrows. They can wear a nice +7 elven shield while doing so:
9 points of cheap, light AC. (Players kill trying to do that on the
protection racket.)
Literal twoweaponing has other costs. Expert two-weaponing only gives
a 1 point damage bonus, doubled to 2 points. Expert missile weapons
gives a 2 point damage bonus, doubled to 4 points.
If you had maximum strength that does a little more damage at melee
range. Did you have maximum strength? Note that at all other ranges
yumi+ya does 44 more points of damage than two-weaponing.
Base Skill Str Poison Ench Role Total Expert
Dmg Dmg 25 # Ttl
Samurai 4.0 2 0 3.5 +7 +1 17.5 2.5 44
(Yumi&Ya)
+7Grayswn 4.5 -1 6 0 +7 0 16.5 2 33
+7katana 5.5 -1 6 0 +7 0 17.5
Twoweaponing: 50.5 total, at melee range, 1 monst, cost 9 AC
Samurai(Y&Y): 44 At range on multiple monsters
So you were doing six more points of damage, but only once the monster
was able to hit you.
The yumi and ya approach lets you hit monsters when they can't hit
back and gives 9 more AC when they do hit you.
Of course, by the time you have two weapons both at +7 you probably
have an almost unkillable character. The Yumi/Ya approach will help you
get to that point. The yumi/ya approach is also guaranteed. Playing
the game relying on getting Grayswandir and a katana....
>
>Also, of course, I find it more fun:-).
Can't argue with that. Just remember that fun costs you 44 points of
damage at range.
--
"I'd just read some old Rob Ellwood posts on forgetting spellcasting,
identifying and enchanting until later. I tried it, and what do you
know!" - Milton Pope, YAAP
All the Best, Jove (Joe Bednorz)
Stanley Myrick
"Jove" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> Darts are better than daggers, if you can get to equal skill. (For
> all except Rogues.) Darts weigh one-tenth as much and can be poisoned.
>
I have heard this mentioned twice now. The first time the poster said Thanks
to the poster that recently pointed out the grace of using darts. I musta
missed that post. Does someone remember it and can direct me to it? I would
like to know, besides weight issues, how darts are as good as daggers or
better. Is damage comparable? (playing Wizard, btw)
Stan
Grett...@gmail.com
> Darts are also universally useful: a stack of blessed, poisoned, +7
> darts thrown with strength 25 will still do 16 points of damage.
>
Jove, or anyone really, could you comment on the advice in Tom Fine's
Nethack Weapon Skills spoiler
(http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Fun/nethack-skills.html)?
A lot of what you say seems to conflict what he says. For instance, he
calls darts "wimpy."
I can think of lots of reasons why this might be so: his analysis is
quite dated now. Have things changed? Does it have to do with all the
enchanting, poisoning, and so on that you are advocating? Is it just
an honest difference of opinion, based on different playing styles?
I am playing all the character classes now, trying to work on
fundamentals instead of relying on the Valkyrie and Wizard superpowers
that let me stumble into my first couple of ascensions. I'm finding it
tough going. I am trying to get weapon selection and strategy right.
The stack of daggers/ranged combat thing does seem to help a lot. But,
as I come across various weapons, I constantly ask myself, should I
trade what I am wielding now for what I just found lying on the ground?
And it's hard to figure out. Especially when I find so much
conflicting advice in different spoilers and in this newsgroup.
If someone can tell me that Fine's pages are definitively right or
wrong and why, that would help me out a lot.
Also, what about his weapon damage calculator? Is it still roughly
accurate? If it has degraded over time, what are the major things that
have changed? Maybe I'll have to code up a new one... I'm sure it
would be a learning experience...
Thanks!
Gretta
Link
I really don't think that melee combat is an exceptionally hard
conduct/challenge. Do you people really fear melee that much?
Jove
Wizards should definitely use daggers because Magicbane uses dagger skill. You have other much
better uses for skill slots than darts.
Btw, here's a range chart I just put together:
Range
Str throw Launcher
2,3 1 2
4,5 2 3
6,7 3 4
8,9 4 5
10,11 5 6
12,13 6 7
14,15 7 8
16,17 8 9
18 9 10
Max 10 11
If you're playing a healer, tourist, or Valkyrie OTOH:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/036ce6200c6cf8e3?hl=en&>
Here's my missile weapon chart (a work in progress):
-----------------------------------------------------
Weight, a rough damage estimate of the major types of the weapon,
and the damage per weight are in parentheses.
Key to "EDMSP VL +H"
Enchant - Can be enchanted with ?oEA
Damage - Get strength damage and to-hit bonus
Multishot - Multiple projectiles thrown per firing.
Stack - Important for multishot, inventory slots, enchanting.
Poisonable - Can be poisoned.
Vanish - Projectiles may vanish when they strike
Launcher - Must be wielded, no strength damage bonus (except for sling)
D/W - Base Damage per weight ratio (Roughly).
+H - to hit bonus if thrown. (Not fired from a launcher if one is required.)
Y means Yes
N means No
M means Maybe (stones, gems, etc. don't require launchers, but are
potentially multi-shot if a sling is wielded. They
get the STR damage bonus only if NOT fired from a
launcher.)
Exp is the max average damage done at max strength, enchantment, etc.
with Expert skill. Ra is the max average damage done by a Ranger
with everything maxed out. Dmg/100wt is the amount of damage 100
units of weight worth of the weapon will do with everything maxed out.
---------------------+-------------------+-----+--+----+--+---------------------------
| ABCH KMPRaRo STVW |EDMSP|VL|D/W |+H| Max|Dmg/
| | | | | |Exp| Ra |100wt
---------------------+-------------------+-----+--+----+--+---+----+------------------
Dart(1,2,2) | b--E --bE E -E-E |YYYYY|YN|2.0 |+2| 41| 50 |2050| Replenish: monsters, traps
Shuriken(1,4,4) | ---s -bbs s Eb-b |YYYYY|YN|4.0 |+2| 45| 56 |2250| Difficult to replenish
Dagger (10,2.5,.25) | bbbs b--E E bEEE |YYYYN|NN|0.25|+2| 35| 44R| 185| Wieldable with +2 to hit
Sling(3,1.5) | s-Es --bE - -bbs |NYMYN|YM| | | 5| 12 |500/50| Multishot ONLY
w/OPTIONAL launcher
Rocks(10,2,.2) | | | |0.2 | | 8| 8 | 4|Easily replenished.
Glass(1,2,2) | | | |2.0 | | 8| 8 | 800|Glass golems replenish.
Gems (1,2,2) | | | |2.0 | | 8| 8 | 800|
Bow(30,1.5) | -bs- b-bE - Eb-- |YNYYY|YY| | | |Replenish: monsters, traps
Arrows(1,3.5,3.5) | | | |3.5 | | 32| 40 |1120|
ya (bamboo) |3.5 |+1| 32| 40 | |
Crossbow(50,1.5) | ---- sbbE E -b-- |YNYYY|YY| | | |Replenish: monsters
Bolts(1,4,4) | | | |4.0 | | 33| 41 | 825|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archaeologists also benefit from throwing darts, even though
they can only get to basic with darts. They're still the best
missile weapon they can get any skill in. (Archaeologists can
get to Expert with the boomerang. Boomerangs are hard to find
and aren't multishot.)
Barbarians with dart at unskilled and dagger at basic.
You're only throwing one at a time no matter what. The -2
damage bonus for unskilled makes it almost a tossup.
Darts still look better due to lower weight. Can carry 50
darts for the same weight as 5 daggers.
Cavemen it's the bow. Can get to skilled. Crossbow bolts are
light and can be poisoned. 1.5 per shot is better than 1 per shot.
Healers - darts are the only missile weapon they can get to Expert
with. Makes the choice easy.
Knights, unless you want to spend skill slots on the crossbow
to skilled, just get by with unskilled darts until you get magic
missile.
Priests: Darts are the best of the missile weapons they can get
to any skill in. Basic is the best they can do with any missile
weapon.
Rangers should do the arrow thing due to starting weapons and
Longbow of Diana giving arrows. Especially Elven Rangers.
(+1 damage per arrow and average an extra half arrow with Elven
bow/arrows)
Rogues: Daggers due to the role benefit to them.
Samurai should do arrows and/or shuriken.
Tourist it's darts due to starting equipment.
Valkyries it's a tossup between daggers and darts. Daggers last.
Darts are more difficult to come by. Darts can be poisoned. Darts
need to be rustproofed. Elven daggers don't need to be rustproofed.
If you're not going to spend the skill slots, go with darts for lightness.
You can carry ten times as many darts as daggers.
Wizards it's daggers due to the guaranteed Magicbane as first gift
from their god.
Don't forget there are two guaranteed dart traps to #untrap
for more ammunition in the VotD.
Heck, a tourist with the blessed PYEC could use a wand of secret door
detection to find dart traps for replenishment.
Jove
>Jove wrote:
>> Darts are also universally useful: a stack of blessed, poisoned, +7
>> darts thrown with strength 25 will still do 16 points of damage.
>>
>> [ snip lots of other interesting missile advice ]
>
>Jove, or anyone really, could you comment on the advice in Tom Fine's
>Nethack Weapon Skills spoiler
>(http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Fun/nethack-skills.html)?
>
>A lot of what you say seems to conflict what he says. For instance, he
>calls darts "wimpy."
My evaluations are based on damage done.
Wielded weapon damage is calculated as follows:
base + str bonus + skill bonus + enchantment
Artifact weapons add to or multiply that total against some
monsters. (Few artifact weapons are equally effective against
all monsters.)
You can get the base damage, max skill, and skill/strength bonuses
from <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/weap-343.txt>.
At high strength and enchantment weapon skill can almost be
neglected with wielded weapons. Weapon skill is critical at all
enchantments and strength for missile weapons.
Without knowing your character's class and race it's not possible
to assess it. e.g. Elves are limited to Str:18 = +3 dmg. GoP
will still increase to +6. So Elves are better suited to bow
because that doesn't get strength damage bonus. Elves also get
a racial damage and multiplier bonus if they're firing elven
arrows from an elven bow.
Weapon choice also depends on other things.
Guaranteed first gift from their god:
Wizard Magicbane dagger
Valkyrie Mjollnir war hammer
Barbarian Cleaver battle axe (two handed)
Samurai Snickersnee long sword
Knights Excalibur long sword
Quest artifact:
Rangers Longbow of Diana. bow
Caveman Sceptre of Might. mace
Healer Staff of Aesculapius quarterstaff (two handed)
Samurai Tsurugi of Muramasa two-handed sword
There may be more examples in both categories.
Crowning gifts also some into it:
Lawful: Excalibur (If wielding a long sword)
Neutral: Vorpal Blade Long sword
Chaotic: Stormbringer Broadsword
Lawfuls of XL 5+ have a chance of getting Excalibur if they
dip a long sword into a fountain.
Artifact weapons can also result from sacrificing to your god.
Any such weapon gift will unlock that weapon skill if necessary,
allowing you to advance to at least basic = +0 dmg bonus.
>
>I can think of lots of reasons why this might be so: his analysis is
>quite dated now. Have things changed? Does it have to do with all the
>enchanting, poisoning, and so on that you are advocating? Is it just
>an honest difference of opinion, based on different playing styles?
>
My assessment is based on damage done.
>I am playing all the character classes now, trying to work on
>fundamentals instead of relying on the Valkyrie and Wizard superpowers
>that let me stumble into my first couple of ascensions. I'm finding it
>tough going. I am trying to get weapon selection and strategy right.
>The stack of daggers/ranged combat thing does seem to help a lot. But,
>as I come across various weapons, I constantly ask myself, should I
>trade what I am wielding now for what I just found lying on the ground?
> And it's hard to figure out. Especially when I find so much
>conflicting advice in different spoilers and in this newsgroup.
Look at the weapons spoiler linked above. Check out how skilled
your character can get with the weapon. (I have an artifact chart
that shows artifacts per weapon skill.)
Note that there are two complete tables listing each all weapon types
in the weapon spoiler. One table has weight and notes two handed
weapons. The other table has role skills and base damage.
>
>If someone can tell me that Fine's pages are definitively right or
>wrong and why, that would help me out a lot.
The weap-343.txt spoiler is what you want to start with. Take
two aspirin first. Feel free to ask questions. The more specific
the better.
>
>Also, what about his weapon damage calculator?
It made no sense to me.
>Is it still roughly
>accurate? If it has degraded over time, what are the major things that
>have changed? Maybe I'll have to code up a new one... I'm sure it
>would be a learning experience...
That's what this desperately needs. I've got the calculations
down and just began tinkering with rusty perl last night.
Jove
>
>
>I really don't think that melee combat is an exceptionally hard
>conduct/challenge. Do you people really fear melee that much?
No. It's just an unnecessary risk.
Grett...@gmail.com
> On 28 Apr 2006 16:55:40 -0700, Grett...@gmail.com wrote:
> >Jove, or anyone really, could you comment on the advice in Tom Fine's
> >Nethack Weapon Skills spoiler
> >(http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Fun/nethack-skills.html)?
> >
> >A lot of what you say seems to conflict what he says. For instance, he
> >calls darts "wimpy."
>
> My evaluations are based on damage done.
While Fine's evaluations are based on something other than damage done?
I think you tried to spell this out in your post but I didn't
understand, sorry.
> The weap-343.txt spoiler is what you want to start with. Take
> two aspirin first. Feel free to ask questions. The more specific
> the better.
Yes, I flip constantly between my nethack window and my browser, which
always has a pane on that spoiler. :-) I mostly use the second table,
the one with role skills and base damage. I think the piece I have
been missing is how to go from base damage to actual damage, by
applying my in-game race, strength, skill level, and the weapon/missile
enchantment, poisoning, etc. and who knows what else. I suspect
everything I need to know is contained somewhere in that spoiler; it's
just taking a long, long time for me to synthesize it all. Meanwhile
my family misses me. "What, you're playing that game again? Did your
Samurai finish her quest?" -- "No, she got bisected..."
Anyway, yes, next time I have a specific question I will ask, if I
can't figure it out by RTFM.
The reason why Fine's pages are so tempting is because they give
specific, per-role advice. "Hey, you're playing a Tourist? Here's
what you should do!" I guess maybe that's considered overspoiling by
many, or the pages would have been updated recently. But, I find the
game plenty challenging even when I spoil myself as thoroughly as
possible.
Thanks again.
Gretta
Jove
>Jove wrote:
>> On 28 Apr 2006 16:55:40 -0700, Grett...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >Jove, or anyone really, could you comment on the advice in Tom Fine's
>> >Nethack Weapon Skills spoiler
>> >(http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Fun/nethack-skills.html)?
>> >
>> >A lot of what you say seems to conflict what he says. For instance, he
>> >calls darts "wimpy."
>>
>> My evaluations are based on damage done.
>
>While Fine's evaluations are based on something other than damage done?
>
>I think you tried to spell this out in your post but I didn't
>understand, sorry.
>
I do not understand Fine's evaluations. He doesn't show his work so
I can't say if they're wrong.
The pages are for Nethack 3.2.2. That was released in 1996.
Don't use the recommendations for Elf. That was back when Elf was
a character class instead of a race.
>> The weap-343.txt spoiler is what you want to start with. Take
>> two aspirin first. Feel free to ask questions. The more specific
>> the better.
>
>Yes, I flip constantly between my nethack window and my browser, which
>always has a pane on that spoiler. :-) I mostly use the second table,
>the one with role skills and base damage. I think the piece I have
>been missing is how to go from base damage to actual damage, by
>applying my in-game race, strength, skill level, and the weapon/missile
>enchantment, poisoning, etc. and who knows what else. I suspect
>everything I need to know is contained somewhere in that spoiler; it's
>just taking a long, long time for me to synthesize it all.
It will take years to do it on your own.
You have a limited number of skill slots to put into enhancing skills.
So you have to think long term as well as short term. What weapon
should I enhance now that will also work in the end game?
That's why I listed all those artifact weapons classes are guaranteed
to get. Those seem obvious weapon types to get and #enhance for those
classes.
A Wizard should do daggers and not enhance other weapons.
They have to find the daggers.
Valks should do daggers, longsword (for Excalibur) and
war hammer. (Mjollnir). They start with a longsword and
a dagger. They'll find more daggers to throw.
Rangers will do find by just doing bow. (Longbow of Diana)
They start with a bow.
Healers should do a quarterstaff (Staff of Aesculapius) and darts.
They have to find a quarterstaff. First wood golem will do.
They also have to find the darts. Early on they rely on pets.
Samurai should enhance katana skill. (Snickersnee)
They start with a katana. They can also get deadly with
their starting bow and arrows.
Cavemen can go for mace (Scepter of Might). They have to find
a mace. (Cavemen are hard.) Chaotic barbarians can get an
Elven broadsword then get crowned for Stormbringer.
Barbarians can do battle axe (Cleaver). Their starting axe uses
the same skill as Cleaver. Chaotic bar
Tourists are fairly versatile. They should enhance their starting
darts to stay alive. Then use the best wielded weapons that come
along. A silver saber from the Minetown guard is great. They can
also two-weapon. A good artifact longsword doubled with a silver
saber can slice and dice. Grayswandir and a silver saber is
monstrous. (Same goes for Archeologists). Once they get the
PYEC they can use wands for almost everything.
Archeologists are versatile. Worst case they use their starting
pick-axe then switch to broad pick (same skill) Then use the best
wielded weapons that come along. A silver saber from the Minetown
guard is great. They can also two-weapon. A good artifact
longsword doubled with a silver saber can slice and dice.
Grayswandir and a silver saber is monstrous. (Same goes for
Tourists.)
Knights start with a longsword which they can enhance (for Excalibur).
The lance is also a nice weapon, especially when applied. #jumping
makes this class unique, just be wary of the hunger cost. Once they
get the Magic Mirror of Merlin they can do monstrous amounts of
damage with the spell of magic missile.
Monks should ask someone who knows more than I do.
The nice thing about planning for guaranteed first gifts or Quest
Artifacts is that a given class can always get to Expert with those.
So for those classes don't worry about other wielded weapons.
Lawfuls can fall back on #enhancing longsword (for Excalibur),
if that skill can be enhanced.
Neutrals can go for longsword (Vorpal Blade when crowned).
There are also a lot of longsword artifacts.
Chaotics get Stormbringer when crowned. Elven broadsword uses
the same skill and is a good weapon by itself.
That should simplify your decision making. If not, let me know,
because that means I don't understand your problem at all.
(Wait until you start considering spell schools as well. :)
>Meanwhile my family misses me. "What, you're playing that game again?
Get them to play. :)
>Did your Samurai finish her quest?" -- "No, she got bisected..."
That's to make up for Samurai being easy early. The thing to remember
about Samurai is that they don't need the Quest Artifact.
They can do everything else, then come back and storm through the
Quest when they're ready.
>Anyway, yes, next time I have a specific question I will ask, if I
>can't figure it out by RTFM.
If the above doesn't help then I'm not sure exactly where you're
having a problem.
>
>
>The reason why Fine's pages are so tempting is because they give
>specific, per-role advice. "Hey, you're playing a Tourist? Here's
>what you should do!"
Did that above for the roles I could. I don't think I've ever seen
anyone reference Fine's pages before.
>I guess maybe that's considered overspoiling by many, or the pages
>would have been updated recently. But, I find the game plenty
>challenging even when I spoil myself as thoroughly as possible.
>
You have no idea.
>Thanks again.
You're welcome.
Panu Lahtinen
>
> Picking up daggers as a Samurai? Samurai can 2.5 weapon with yumi and
> ya: d4 arrows per firing. They weigh one-tenth as much as daggers and
> can be poisoned. More damage even than two-weaponing.
if Role_if(PM_SAMURAI) {
You("dishonorably use a poisoned weapon!");
adjalign(-sgn(u.ualign.type));
} else if ((u.ualign.type == A_LAWFUL) && (u.ualign.record > -10)) {
You_feel("like an evil coward for using a poisoned weapon.");
adjalign(-1);
}
That means, if I read correctly:
-1 alignment for lawfuls
no effect for neutrals
+1 alignment for chaotic samurai
Of course, those alignment hits are easily corrected, as somenone noted
when he had killed everyone on his Quest Home.
--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
Janis Papanagnou
>
> Rangers will do find by just doing bow. (Longbow of Diana)
> They start with a bow.
Or with a crossbow; that's depending on the race.
So gnomish rangers are disadvantaged at the beginning, since they
start with a crossbow and have to build their bow proficiency later
to get full advantage of their quest artifact.
And ironically the cruel RNG (at NAO) had always selected gnomish
rangers for me. <grr>
Janis
nyra
>
> On 28 Apr 2006 21:09:00 -0700, Grett...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Jove wrote:
> You have a limited number of skill slots to put into enhancing skills.
> So you have to think long term as well as short term. What weapon
> should I enhance now that will also work in the end game?
Saving skill slots for late-game considerations won't do you any good
if this stinginess prevents you from getting _to_ the end game in the
first place.
I find that skill slots in NetHack aren't all that precious -
'wasting' two or three to get 'stepstone' skills up to basic usually
won't endanger late game success.
> That's why I listed all those artifact weapons classes are guaranteed
> to get. Those seem obvious weapon types to get and #enhance for those
> classes.
>
> A Wizard should do daggers and not enhance other weapons.
> They have to find the daggers.
Even enhancing daggers isn't really necessary for them, although
getting daggers to skilled or expert will certainly help a pre-quest
wizard. I absolutely agree that wizards should use their skill slots
for spellcasting instead of weapon skills.
> Healers should do a quarterstaff (Staff of Aesculapius) and darts.
> They have to find a quarterstaff. First wood golem will do.
I prefer to postpone all the training until i've got the Staff of
Asklepios - even unskilled it's a lot better than an expert-skilled
ordinary staff. My healers usually wield a unicorn horn until they
finish the quest, although i generally don't advance it past skilled;
the small expert bonus isn't worth three skill slots for me.
> Samurai should enhance katana skill. (Snickersnee)
> They start with a katana. They can also get deadly with
> their starting bow and arrows.
They can also use their quest artefact. Nice weapon, although dual
weapons still do more damage; and it can be stolen by the Wizard of
Yendor - you'll need to have a backup.
> Cavemen can go for mace (Scepter of Might). They have to find
> a mace. (Cavemen are hard.)
The sceptre appears relatively late, and maces aren't a particularly
attractive weapon without the sceptre's double damage. I tend to use
my starting club, without bothering to enhance it, then switch to the
first unicorn horn i can get my fingers on. Non-erodable, you'll want
one anyway and it does reasonable damage.
You can reach expert skill in spears, but that's not all that
exciting, either: no multishot when hurling, and anyway too heavy to
use as missiles; still, they're reasonable early-game weapons.
> Barbarians can do battle axe (Cleaver). Their starting axe uses
> the same skill as Cleaver. Chaotic barbarians can get an
> Elven broadsword then get crowned for Stormbringer.
Cleaver is a two-handed weapon, and two-handers are currently
unattractive because you can't operate a bag or cast spells while
wielding a cursed two-handed weapon.
> Monks should ask someone who knows more than I do.
Taking a stab, although i don't consider myself particularly
knowledgable: monks will get reasonable damage with just about any
artefact weapon they're given; if you only receive something grotty
like Ogresmasher or Trollsbane at first, keep trying. Crowning isn't
worth it for them: they'll get the resists anyway and they only
receive a potted plant as crowning gift (well, in fact they get a
spellbook of restore ability, but the value in game terms is the
same).
They can go with martial arts all the way, but even at grand master
that means less damage than a 'basic' skill +5 long sword. If you like
martial arts, why not try a Samurai? They can also reach grand
mastery, they can wear armour without penalty and they can switch to
their (expert) yumi for ranged combat.
> The nice thing about planning for guaranteed first gifts or Quest
> Artifacts is that a given class can always get to Expert with those.
> So for those classes don't worry about other wielded weapons.
I'd only suggest this where the guaranteed weapon is of a type that's
a powerful weapon on its own - battle-axe, katana, long sword. I
wouldn't recommend quarterstaff, mace or war hammer. Daggers have
other benefits, namely the +2 to-hit bonus and the option of throwing
them; as main melee weapon they're rather unimpressive.
> Neutrals can go for longsword (Vorpal Blade when crowned).
> There are also a lot of longsword artifacts.
Vorpal Blade has poor damage - just a +1 artefact bonus over a plain
longsword. The odd removed head doesn't make up for this in my book. I
like _Sunsword_ better than Vorpal Blade.
> >Did your Samurai finish her quest?" -- "No, she got bisected..."
>
> That's to make up for Samurai being easy early.
All you need is a wand of death: often, the hostile samurai on the
quest will provide one (of course, reflection is almost mandatory on
that quest).
--
Een koe is een merkwaardig beest; wat er ook in haar geest moge zijn,
haar laatste woord is altijd boe.
Jove
Thanks for giving a more experienced view. Readers should note that
my arguments are based on damage done and better AC.
>Jove schrieb:
>>
>> On 28 Apr 2006 21:09:00 -0700, Grett...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >Jove wrote:
>> You have a limited number of skill slots to put into enhancing skills.
>> So you have to think long term as well as short term. What weapon
>> should I enhance now that will also work in the end game?
>
>Saving skill slots for late-game considerations won't do you any good
>if this stinginess prevents you from getting _to_ the end game in the
>first place.
Excellent point. That's part of the reason I recommend Expert
bow/dart/dagger so much. That and they do more damage then any single
melee weapon.
>I find that skill slots in NetHack aren't all that precious -
>'wasting' two or three to get 'stepstone' skills up to basic usually
>won't endanger late game success.
Strongly disagree. Spell schools particularly can use a lot of skill
slots. Depends on the role, spell schools, XL you can achieve, etc.
Skill slots are tough to get past XL 16.
>
>> That's why I listed all those artifact weapons classes are guaranteed
>> to get. Those seem obvious weapon types to get and #enhance for those
>> classes.
>>
>> A Wizard should do daggers and not enhance other weapons.
>> They have to find the daggers.
>
>Even enhancing daggers isn't really necessary for them,
Strongly disagree. Thrown daggers at Expert skill do double damage
against all monsters. Normally you have to Grayswandir for that.
(That's Grayswandir's only advantage over a plain silver saber.) That's
why players lust for Grayswandir. That's also why players should lust
for Expert dagger/dart weapon skill.
That doubles:
- Strength damage bonus.
- GoP give +6 damage bonus. Expert thrown daggers = +12 damage.
- Enchantment damage bonus.
- Skill damage bonus
- Ring of increase damage bonus.
Just look at the GoP damage bonus. What would you give for a +6 ring
of increase damage when using a wielded weapon? That's what double
damage from Expert dagger throwing gives you. Plus, wizards are
guaranteed Magicbane as their first divine gift. Magicbane uses dagger
skill. Going from Unskilled to Expert means +4 damage when hitting with
Magicbane.
That double damage is guaranteed. Grayswandir isn't. (Unskilled with
Grayswandir also costs you 8 damage points per hit.)
>although
>getting daggers to skilled or expert will certainly help a pre-quest
>wizard. I absolutely agree that wizards should use their skill slots
>for spellcasting instead of weapon skills.
Except for daggers. They're the key to letting a Wizard survive long
enough for spells to become effective: steppingstone.
>
>> Healers should do a quarterstaff (Staff of Aesculapius) and darts.
>> They have to find a quarterstaff. First wood golem will do.
>
>I prefer to postpone all the training until i've got the Staff of
>Asklepios - even unskilled it's a lot better than an expert-skilled
>ordinary staff. My healers usually wield a unicorn horn until they
>finish the quest, although i generally don't advance it past skilled;
>the small expert bonus isn't worth three skill slots for me.
That's not a bad approach. #Enhancing Knife might be better. Helps
the starting scalpel and can wear the best shield found. Another
stepping stone. Crysknives use the same skill and are pretty good
weapons. +3 to hit and 5.5 base damage, 3.5 better than scalpel. Big
drawback is when they revert to a wormtooth. Enhancing knife will help
immediately with the starting scalpel.
Str 18
Expert scalpel does (5.5 + Str bonus) damage. 7.5
Basic unihorn does (5.5 + Str bonus) damage. 7.5
Expert darts (4.0 + 2x Str bonus) damage. 8.0
Expert scalpel (knife) will cost 5 skill slots. Basic unicorn horn
costs 1.
Expert darts cost 6 skill slots but do double damage. They can also
still be used once the Quest is completed. Enchanting the darts early
is worthwhile. The enchantment damage is doubled.
Unihorns take a while to get and are a two-handed weapon. Darts will
probably be found earlier. Expert darts do double damage, unicorn horns
don't. Cursed unihorns are a DevTeam deathtrap (as you point out
below.)
That means Expert darts get double benefit from:
- Strength damage bonus
- Enchantment damage bonus
- Expert damage bonus
- Ring of increase damage bonus.
Darts let you wield whatever weapon you want. They can be used at
melee distance. They let you wear the best shield found. They don't
take any hands at all. (Can be used even if your hands are welded to a
cursed unihorn.) They do double damage.
Darts can be used to attack monsters up to Str/2 squares away.
>
>> Samurai should enhance katana skill. (Snickersnee)
>> They start with a katana. They can also get deadly with
>> their starting bow and arrows.
>
>They can also use their quest artefact. Nice weapon, although dual
>weapons still do more damage; and it can be stolen by the Wizard of
>Yendor - you'll need to have a backup.
The Tsurugi of Murumasa gives nothing special beyond 95% failure rate
at bisecting. It's a two-handed weapon which is a DevTeam deathtrap
when cursed. You can't wear a shield with it, up to 9 points of AC.
As you point out Rodney will target it.
Expert Bow does more damage than ordinary twoweaponing and you can
wear a shield. That's 9 more points of AC with a +7 elven shield.
Keep the ya (bamboo arrows) in reserve for tough monsters.
Expert +7
- arrows = 24.5 average damage
- ya fired from a yumi by a Samurai = 30.6 average damage.
Wield the bow and hit approaching monsters with all the "junk" arrows
you'll find. Switch to guaranteed Snickersnee as they get close. The
extra AC from the shield you're wearing will help a lot. (Up to 9 AC)
For tough monsters just use the +7 blessed poisoned ya to start with.
Keep using them at melee distance. (If the monster gets that far.)
Ratio of damage done by arrows at a distance to damage you take:
Infinite.
>
>> Cavemen can go for mace (Scepter of Might). They have to find
>> a mace. (Cavemen are hard.)
>
>The sceptre appears relatively late, and maces aren't a particularly
>attractive weapon without the sceptre's double damage. I tend to use
>my starting club, without bothering to enhance it,
Using the first non-cursed mace and enhancing it to Expert will do 6.5
damage. The starting club at basic skill does 3.5 damage. Three more
points of damage per hit.
>then switch to the
>first unicorn horn i can get my fingers on. Non-erodable, you'll want
>one anyway and it does reasonable damage.
Expert mace does 6.5 damage. Basic unihorn does 5.5.
>You can reach expert skill in spears, but that's not all that
>exciting, either: no multishot when hurling, and anyway too heavy to
>use as missiles; still, they're reasonable early-game weapons.
Cavemen can get to Skilled with a bow. Not perfect but much better
than nothing. Let's you wear a shield as well.
At Basic skill the unihorn will do 6.5 + Strength damage bonus.
At Expert skill a mace will do 6.5 + Strength damage bonus.
You may also find a positively enchanted mace. You won't find a
positively enchanted unihorn except possibly in a bones file.
Having mace skill at Expert means you'll immediately be doing 8 more
points of damage once you get the Scepter.
The bow using +0 plain arrows will do (3.5 + 2) * 1.5 = 5.5 * 1.5 =
8.25 points of damage. That's near or far. It beats both the mace and
the unihorn.
Enchanting the arrows will average 50% more damage than enchanting the
unihorn or mace. The bow will be useful even after the Scepter of Might
has been obtained. Switching between the bow and the Scepter is simple
as you won't have to remove any shield.
Two-handed weapons (unihorn) are a DevTeam deathtrap if they get
cursed. They cost you up to 9 points of AC. They don't do damage at
range. Bows have a range of [(Str/2) + 1] At strength 18 that gives
you up to 10 moves to hit the monster. Assuming 5 spaces and +0 arrows
that's 25 points of damage even if you switch to a melee weapon when it
gets close.
Free 25 points of damage seems like an overwhelming argument to me.
So does up to 9 points of AC from a shield.
>
>> Barbarians can do battle axe (Cleaver). Their starting axe uses
>> the same skill as Cleaver. Chaotic barbarians can get an
>> Elven broadsword then get crowned for Stormbringer.
>
>Cleaver is a two-handed weapon, and two-handers are currently
>unattractive because you can't operate a bag or cast spells while
>wielding a cursed two-handed weapon.
Cleaver also costs up to 9 points of AC as well. So we're in violent
agreement. Gretta was looking for obvious weapon choices. I tried to
give them to her.
(Note: A unicorn horn is a two-handed weapon.)
>
>> Monks should ask someone who knows more than I do.
>
>Taking a stab, although i don't consider myself particularly
>knowledgable: monks will get reasonable damage with just about any
>artefact weapon they're given; if you only receive something grotty
>like Ogresmasher or Trollsbane at first, keep trying. Crowning isn't
>worth it for them: they'll get the resists anyway and they only
>receive a potted plant as crowning gift (well, in fact they get a
>spellbook of restore ability, but the value in game terms is the
>same).
>They can go with martial arts all the way, but even at grand master
>that means less damage than a 'basic' skill +5 long sword. If you like
>martial arts, why not try a Samurai? They can also reach grand
>mastery,
Only master, not grandmaster.
>they can wear armour without penalty and they can switch to
>their (expert) yumi for ranged combat.
Expert yumi does more damage than any single melee weapon. It also
does more damage than ordinary two-weaponing. Saves skill slots and
scrolls of enchant weapon.
>
>> The nice thing about planning for guaranteed first gifts or Quest
>> Artifacts is that a given class can always get to Expert with those.
>> So for those classes don't worry about other wielded weapons.
>
>I'd only suggest this where the guaranteed weapon is of a type that's
>a powerful weapon on its own - battle-axe, katana, long sword. I
>wouldn't recommend quarterstaff, mace or war hammer.
quarterstaff 3.5 (two-handed)
war hammer 3.5
mace 4.5
longsword 4.5
katana 5.5
battle-axe 8.0 (two-handed)
A mace does as much base damage as a longsword.
A quarterstaff at Expert skill will do as much damage (5.5) as a
battle-axe at Unskilled, 6.0.
>Daggers have
>other benefits, namely the +2 to-hit bonus and the option of throwing
>them; as main melee weapon they're rather unimpressive.
Thrown daggers do double damage, even at melee range. That's
impressive to me.
>
>> Neutrals can go for longsword (Vorpal Blade when crowned).
>> There are also a lot of longsword artifacts.
>
>Vorpal Blade has poor damage - just a +1 artefact bonus over a plain
>longsword. The odd removed head doesn't make up for this in my book. I
>like _Sunsword_ better than Vorpal Blade.
No argument. Gretta was looking for obvious weapons. It's a
fallback. Sunsword is not guaranteed. Vorpal Blade is.
Thanks for giving a more experienced view. Readers should note that
my arguments are based on damage done and better AC.
Link
nyra wrote:
> Jove schrieb:
> > Monks should ask someone who knows more than I do.
>
> Taking a stab, although i don't consider myself particularly
> knowledgable: monks will get reasonable damage with just about any
> artefact weapon they're given; if you only receive something grotty
> like Ogresmasher or Trollsbane at first, keep trying. Crowning isn't
> worth it for them: they'll get the resists anyway and they only
> receive a potted plant as crowning gift (well, in fact they get a
> spellbook of restore ability, but the value in game terms is the
> same).
> They can go with martial arts all the way, but even at grand master
> that means less damage than a 'basic' skill +5 long sword. If you like
> martial arts, why not try a Samurai? They can also reach grand
> mastery, they can wear armour without penalty and they can switch to
> their (expert) yumi for ranged combat.
1) Samurai don't get a to-hit bonus when using martial arts. Monks are
the only class that get this to-hit bonus.
2) The Monk starts the game with a spellbook. Each of these spellbooks
greatly helps the Monk use melee combat.
3) Samurai don't get automatic warning at XL 7. Warning helps make an
escape path if you need to flee out of melee range.
4) Samurai don't get automatic searching at XL 9. Automatic searching
helps prevent the case where you are in melee range, decide you want to
flee, and oops you trigger a beartrap you didn't know was there.
Monk martial art damage is good enough. If I really cared about
damage, then I'd boost a Wizard up to XL 30, and chain cast
cone-of-cold.
nyra
>
> nyra wrote:
> > Jove schrieb:
> > > Monks should ask someone who knows more than I do.
> >
> > Taking a stab, although i don't consider myself particularly
> > knowledgable: monks will get reasonable damage with just about any
> > artefact weapon they're given; if you only receive something grotty
> > like Ogresmasher or Trollsbane at first, keep trying. Crowning isn't
> > worth it for them: they'll get the resists anyway and they only
> > receive a potted plant as crowning gift (well, in fact they get a
> > spellbook of restore ability, but the value in game terms is the
> > same).
> > They can go with martial arts all the way, but even at grand master
> > that means less damage than a 'basic' skill +5 long sword. If you like
> > martial arts, why not try a Samurai? They can also reach grand
> > mastery, they can wear armour without penalty and they can switch to
> > their (expert) yumi for ranged combat.
>
> 1) Samurai don't get a to-hit bonus when using martial arts. Monks are
> the only class that get this to-hit bonus.
Past the early game, this to-hit bonus is irrelevant. A blessed
luckstone and maxed-out luck combined with the Samurai's high Str and
Dex will still guarantee hits.
> 2) The Monk starts the game with a spellbook. Each of these spellbooks
> greatly helps the Monk use melee combat.
The samurai starts the game with a good piece of armour (a piece of
armour the monk can't wear without being driven insane by warning
messages) and a missile weapon and has nice hitpoint gains when
levelling up.
> 3) Samurai don't get automatic warning at XL 7.
> 4) Samurai don't get automatic searching at XL 9.
You're right here: monks get a lot more 'flavour'. They still get it
when not using martial arts, though.
> Monk martial art damage is good enough.
I agree that it's good _enough_. I just find that Samurai make better
martial artists than monks.
> If I really cared about
> damage, then I'd boost a Wizard up to XL 30, and chain cast
> cone-of-cold.
If i really cared about damage, i wouldn't suggest using martial arts
with a samurai - an ordinary katana+wakizashi dual-wielded and
enchanted to the max beat bare hands with contemptuous ease in the
damage department.
Richard Bos
> Literal twoweaponing has other costs. Expert two-weaponing only gives
> a 1 point damage bonus, doubled to 2 points. Expert missile weapons
> gives a 2 point damage bonus, doubled to 4 points.
But there's only one missile weapon, versus two two-weaponed ones.
> If you had maximum strength that does a little more damage at melee
> range. Did you have maximum strength? Note that at all other ranges
> yumi+ya does 44 more points of damage than two-weaponing.
>
> Base Skill Str Poison Ench Role Total Expert
> Dmg Dmg 25 # Ttl
> Samurai 4.0 2 0 3.5 +7 +1 17.5 2.5 44
> (Yumi&Ya)
>
> +7Grayswn 4.5 -1 6 0 +7 0 16.5 2 33
> +7katana 5.5 -1 6 0 +7 0 17.5
>
> Twoweaponing: 50.5 total, at melee range, 1 monst, cost 9 AC
> Samurai(Y&Y): 44 At range on multiple monsters
That all depends on
- not running out of ya, and
- finding enough enchant weapon scrolls, or a magic marker.
Using a poisoned weapon is also not good for a Samurai.
All of this can be overcome by the time you reach the Castle; but by
that time, a meleeing Samurai should be a tank anyway.
> The yumi/ya approach is also guaranteed. Playing
> the game relying on getting Grayswandir and a katana....
You're guaranteed Snickersnee, and very nearly guaranteed Excalibur.
Frostbrand is hardly unlikely.
Richard
Ugly Newt
Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> [Advice on what skills to #enhance for each class]
You missed two:
Rogues - I know you're going to suggest thrown daggers here, and I agree
wholeheartedly (though I might still wield an artifact for its special
features, if available)
Priests - any suggestions? I can never decide between the starting mace
and the crowning artifact, and once you have the Mitre, attack spells
seem the way to go.
> Monks should ask someone who knows more than I do.
I've had the most success using Grand Master martial arts + assorted
spells for these - it's not as clear-cut a choice in vanilla as in
Slash'Em (where you get significant penalties for wielding anything, and
there are all those #techniques), but it still beats the crap out of the
Basic you can reach with anything else.
--
Glyn Kennington - remove caps from email address to reply
Jove
>Jove <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Literal twoweaponing has other costs. Expert two-weaponing only gives
>> a 1 point damage bonus, doubled to 2 points. Expert missile weapons
>> gives a 2 point damage bonus, doubled to 4 points.
>
>But there's only one missile weapon, versus two two-weaponed ones.
You average hitting with two separate weapons. Otherwise the average
damage wouldn't be doubled.
That means one skill to enhance.
One stack of weapons to enchant.
Enchant damage is doubled. (?oEW are twice as effective.)
You can wear a shield, up to 9 more AC.
They also have up to 9x the range.
They do more damage.
Those look like advantages to me.
>
>> If you had maximum strength that does a little more damage at melee
>> range. Did you have maximum strength? Note that at all other ranges
>> yumi+ya does 44 more points of damage than two-weaponing.
>>
>> Base Skill Str Poison Ench Role Total Expert
>> Dmg Dmg 25 # Ttl
>> Samurai 4.0 2 0 3.5 +7 +1 17.5 2.5 44
>> (Yumi&Ya)
>>
>> +7Grayswn 4.5 -1 6 0 +7 0 16.5 2 33
>> +7katana 5.5 -1 6 0 +7 0 17.5
>>
>> Twoweaponing: 50.5 total, at melee range, 1 monst, cost 9 AC
>> Samurai(Y&Y): 44 At range on multiple monsters
>
>That all depends on
>- not running out of ya, and
Good point. There are a lot of throwaway arrows to be found in the
Dungeons of Doom. Use them at range. Save ya for dangerous monsters
at melee range.
+7 plain arrows do 32 dmg. Multiply that by distance to get the real
damage.
Approaching monster:
Range Arrows #twoweapon
3 32 0
2 32 0
---------------------------
64 0
Weapon ranges:
Launcher - Str:18 #twoweaponing
11000000000000000000011 11000000000000000000011
10987654321012345678901 10987654321012345678901
11 11 11 11
10 * * * 10 10 10
09 * * * 09 09 09
08 * * * 08 08 08
07 * * * 07 07 07
06 * * * 06 06 06
05 * * * 05 05 05
04 * * * 04 04 04
03 * * * 03 03 03
02 * * * 02 02 02
01 *** 01 01 *** 01
00 **********@********** 00 00 *@* 00
01 *** 01 01 *** 01
02 * * * 02 02 02
03 * * * 03 03 03
04 * * * 04 04 04
05 * * * 05 05 05
06 * * * 06 06 06
07 * * * 07 07 07
08 * * * 08 08 08
09 * * * 09 09 09
10 * * * 10 10 10
11 11 11 11
11000000000000000000011 11000000000000000000011
10987654321012345678901 10987654321012345678901
>- finding enough enchant weapon scrolls, or a magic marker.
It takes half as many b?oEW to enchant a single stack of missile
weapons vs two different wielded weapons.
>Using a poisoned weapon is also not good for a Samurai.
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/42de06d503b4dd59?dmode=source&hl=en>
"Of course, those alignment hits are easily corrected, as
somenone[sic] noted when he had killed everyone on his Quest
Home." - Panu Lahtinen
Poison also has a 10% chance of an instakill, which is not noted in
the above damage totals.
>
>All of this can be overcome by the time you reach the Castle; but by
>that time, a meleeing Samurai should be a tank anyway.
A real tank can reach out and touch someone. (Hint: Don't bring a
knife to a gun fight. Bringing two knives is not any better.)
>
>> The yumi/ya approach is also guaranteed. Playing
>> the game relying on getting Grayswandir and a katana....
>
>You're guaranteed Snickersnee, and very nearly guaranteed Excalibur.
>Frostbrand is hardly unlikely.
>
Grayswandir can't compare with yumi+ya. Those weapons are worse.
Note: Frost Brand is no better than an ordinary long sword
(5.5 dmg) against cold resistant monsters. There are 59 of them,
including:
- all Lichs,
- almost everything in the VotD,
- almost everything in any graveyard,
- including the one in Moloch's Sanctum
- the Endgame Riders.
You pay for using it in destroyed potions. Usually potions of
monsters you don't need it against.
That's an unnecessary cost just to do a lot less damage.
--
The above text has been editted to serve my own nefarious ends.
All the best,
Jove (Joe Bednorz)
Jove
>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> [Advice on what skills to #enhance for each class]
>
>You missed two:
>
>Rogues - I know you're going to suggest thrown daggers here, and I agree
>wholeheartedly (though I might still wield an artifact for its special
>features, if available)
Good point.
>
>Priests - any suggestions? I can never decide between the starting mace
>and the crowning artifact, and once you have the Mitre, attack spells
>seem the way to go.
Spells: 11 skill slots needed to max out. Miter of Holiness is a
Helm of Brilliance, great for spell casting. Can be invoked for mana.
Priests can get to Expert in Clerical, Healing, and Divination spells.
Special spell: Remove curse.
These are suggestions. I ascended a Priest but don't remember it
well. I know I never used #turn undead.
Attacks:
--------
#turn undead: 4.5 damage to all undead in sight.
(Ranged attack in lit areas.)
Undead include all
- liches (L),
- all mummies (M),
- all vampires (V),
- all wraiths/wights (W),
- all zombies (Z),
- ghosts, and
- shades.
Best used against groups of undead in a lit area. (Graveyards,
the Quest, VotD, Graveyard in Moloch's Sanctum).
Weapons
-------
No #twoweaponing.
No multishot missiles.
Priests were not supposed to use edged weapons. Their skill
limitations reflect that.
Spears look like the best early wielded weapon: 5dmg with skill bonus.
(I'm pretty sure that's what I used.) They're not two-handed: no curse
disasters, can wear a shield. Safer both early and late. Spears can
only be raised to Skilled. That saves three skill slots for spells and
artifacts. Worst case you can wish for a silver spear for Gehennom
(+10.5 vs silver haters)
Darts should be the early ranged weapon. (I actually ended up with
some javelins, but rarely used them.)
(Note: Spears stack and get a +2 to hit throwing bonus as well, BION.
Mass enchant, mass bless and you've got very heavy ranged weapons.)
After that it depends on what artifact weapons you get, how you get
them, what alignment you are, what race you are, whether you have GoP,
etc. (Priests can play all alignments. Priests can be human or elf.)
There are just too many unknowns after spear. Welcome to Nethack.
>
>> Monks should ask someone who knows more than I do.
>
>I've had the most success using Grand Master martial arts + assorted
>spells for these - it's not as clear-cut a choice in vanilla as in
>Slash'Em (where you get significant penalties for wielding anything, and
>there are all those #techniques), but it still beats the crap out of the
>Basic you can reach with anything else.
Glad you mentioned spells. Only Monks and Wizards are unrestricted in
all spell schools:
School Mon
~~~~~~ ~~~
attack : b
healing : E
divination : b
enchantment : b
clerical : s
escape : b
matter : b
I guess Monks are supposed to be wise enough to make use of any spell
they find.
From weap-343.txt
"The martial arts bonus also applies when attacking a monster by
kicking it."
From armr-343.txt (Regarding kicking boots):
"Kick Kicking does additional damage, and grants martial arts
bonuses."
Neither the weapons spoiler nor the armor spoiler seem to specify the
additional damage. (At least, I didn't find it by searching for
"kick".)
Jove
>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> [Advice on what skills to #enhance for each class]
>
>You missed two:
>
>Rogues - I know you're going to suggest thrown daggers here, and I agree
>wholeheartedly (though I might still wield an artifact for its special
>features, if available)
>
Just found this about Rogues in weap-343.txt
+ If you are a Rogue in natural form hitting a fleeing monster, aren't
stuck or using two weapons, and subtotal B is more than one point,
you strike from behind with an additional random damage from 1 to
your experience level.
If you don't #twoweapon you get +d[XL] when hitting a fleeing monster.
No exception is made for thrown weapons.
Scare the monster with Elbereth. Throw daggers.
XL Damage Dagger
Skill
1 +1.5 Basic
2 +3 Skilled
3 +4 Skilled
4 +5 Skilled
5 +6 Skilled
6 +9 Expert
7 +10 Expert
11 +15 Expert
15 +20 Expert
30 +40 Expert
>
>Priests - any suggestions? I can never decide between the starting mace
>and the crowning artifact, and once you have the Mitre, attack spells
>seem the way to go.
Vorpal Blade as a crowning artifact unlocks long sword. Vorpal Blade
just gives +1 damage to all monsters. That's why there are so many long
sword artifacts. A damage doubling artifact will do 4 more points of
damage at basic vs unskilled.
Getting Excalibur *while being crowned* gives +2 to a decent weapon.
Getting Stormbringer while being crowned is okay. (The best any class
can get with Stormbringer is skilled in any case.) Switch to blessed
silver saber against demons, vampires, and werecreatures.
--
Welcome to Nethack.
Dylan O'Donnell
> From weap-343.txt
>
> "The martial arts bonus also applies when attacking a monster by
> kicking it."
>
> From armr-343.txt (Regarding kicking boots):
>
> "Kick Kicking does additional damage, and grants martial arts
> bonuses."
>
> Neither the weapons spoiler nor the armor spoiler seem to specify the
> additional damage. (At least, I didn't find it by searching for
> "kick".)
kick-343.txt is still sitting half-completed on my hard drive, two
years after starting it. I really ought to do something about that.
--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "What are they doing at night in the park? :
: Think of them waddling about in the dark..." :
: -- Alan Moore, "March of the Sinister Ducks" :
Jove
> Just found this about Rogues in weap-343.txt
>
>+ If you are a Rogue in natural form hitting a fleeing monster, aren't
> stuck or using two weapons, and subtotal B is more than one point,
> you strike from behind with an additional random damage from 1 to
> your experience level.
>
>
> If you don't #twoweapon you get +d[XL] when hitting a fleeing monster.
>No exception is made for thrown weapons.
>
> Scare the monster with Elbereth. Throw daggers.
From Eidolos on #nethack: "This is why athames are perfect for
Rogues." (And Magicbane's scare attack finally has a little bit of
use.)
Another suggestion from Eidolos:
Tooled horn and drum may scare nearby monsters. Drum of earthquake may
scare every monster on the level. (Even work on Air and Water.)
A co-aligned temple is a killing ground.
Scare Monster is the perfect spell for Rogues. Too bad they're
restricted in Enchantment spells. (So kill a priest for his robe.
That's the Rogue way.)
"Book of the Dead
Obtained from the Wizard of Yendor.
blessed
Undead creatures in your sight are made peaceful; nearby ones
sharing your alignment may be tamed, others may flee."
David Damerell
>Jove wrote:
>>Darts are also universally useful: a stack of blessed, poisoned, +7
>>darts thrown with strength 25 will still do 16 points of damage.
>Nethack Weapon Skills spoiler
>(http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Fun/nethack-skills.html)?
That spoiler is _very_ old now. In particular, it predates multiple
throwings of ranged weapons.
--
OPTIONS=name:Kirsty,menustyle:C,female,lit_corridor,standout,time,showexp,hilit
e_pet,catname:Akane,dogname:Ryoga,fruit:okonomiyaki,pickup_types:"!$?=/,scores:
5 top/2 around,color,boulder:0,autoquiver,autodig,disclose:yiyayvygyc,pickup_bu
rden:burdened,!cmdassist,msg_window:reversed,!sparkle,horsename:Rumiko,showrace
kanze
> On 28 Apr 2006 03:04:58 -0700, kanze wrote:
> >Jove wrote:
> > [...]
> >> >I also think that melee and ranged are both important, and
> >> >relying on ranged combat limits your options.
> >> Relying exclusively, maybe. Expert missiles can do a lot
> >> more damage than most melee weapons, even most artifacts.
> >> (Two-weaponing is the exception because it also doubles
> >> damage bonuses.)
> >> Melee-distance fighting is inherently more dangerous than
> >> fighting at a greater distance. Fighting at range
> >> reduces your chances of being hit back.
> >On the other hand, all of the ranged attacts use vital
> >resources. You've got to go pick up those daggers, or loose
> >them;
> Picking up daggers as a Samurai? Samurai can 2.5 weapon
> with yumi and ya: d4 arrows per firing. They weigh
> one-tenth as much as daggers and can be poisoned. More
> damage even than two-weaponing.
Every time I've used a poisoned weapon as a Samurai, I've gotten
a nasty message.
I've noted the weight difference, although in practice, I've
never had a problem with a stack of 10 or 12 daggers.
> Darts are better than daggers, if you can get to equal
> skill. (For all except Rogues.) Darts weigh one-tenth as
> much and can be poisoned.
> Yes, it's extra keystrokes to pick up the arrows. (Even if
> you use autopickup and autopickup exceptions.) Your
> character will last longer as well. The thought of using
> more keystrokes just so you have to type even more must just
> kill your will to live.
It's not the keystrokes; it's the time. When you're moving to
pick up the daggers (or arrows, or whatever), you're not moving
somewhere else, or doing something else. Usually, it's not a
problem. Sometimes, it can be.
> > spell casting uses manna.
> Which regenerates. Worst case you end up fighting a weaker
> monster in melee. What's wrong with that?
Nothing. But you don't want to be in a state where it needs
regenerating just when the master mind flayer shows up.
[...]
> Of course, by the time you have two weapons both at +7 you
> probably have an almost unkillable character. The Yumi/Ya
> approach will help you get to that point. The yumi/ya
> approach is also guaranteed. Playing the game relying on
> getting Grayswandir and a katana....
Exalibur's almost guaranteed. If I don't get Grayswandir, I'll
use Exalibur and a Katana, switching to Exalibur and a silver
saber where silver is indicated.
I do use ranged weapons. Against monsters I don't want to get
close to. Generally, I find that my pet will help me enough to
get by the early stages, and then I've got at least Exalibur and
a Katana, with the ranged weapons reserved for the monsters I
don't want to get close to. (I also find that arrows get lost.
Daggers are better on that score.)
I'm not saying that you shouldn't use ranged weapons. Just that
using only ranged weapons isn't the only workable strategy;
melee fighting can be effective in some cases as well. Part of
the price of ranged weapons is that you loose them (either mana,
or the missle), at least temporarily. So if you have a good
melee character, and good melee weapons, it's often a better bet
to hang onto your ranged weapons until you really need them;
that way, you can be sure that they are available when melee is
NOT an alternative.
--
James Kanze GABI Software
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
Richard Bos
> Part of the price of ranged weapons is that you loose them
No, that's the very point of ranged weapons.
The price is that you also _lose_ them.
Richard
rpresser
> Part of the price of ranged weapons is that you loose them (either mana,
> or the missle), at least temporarily.
Normally at this point I would start ranting and yelling about how you
wrote the word "loose" when you should have written "lose". Your
statement is saying that the bad thing about ranged weapons is that
sometimes they get lost, and the proper tense of the verb there is
spelled "lose", not "loose".
But the ironic thing is that ranged weapons are "loosed". Throwing
daggers or firing arrows is correctly referred to as "loosing" them. So
in this one tiny instance out of all of usenet, my favorite rant is
inappropriate. :-)