Gehennom wraiths and Nornbashing
Mark O'Bannon
without dying -- I'm now frequently getting to the Quest, Fort Ludios,
the Medusa level, the Castle, and Gehennom. And I'm learning a few
things by bitter, bitter experience. First of all, electric eels are
REALLY nasty. I'm tired of having my =oRegen and =oTelepCtrl and /oWish
explode. Grrr. But I'm learning how to avoid/kill them.
Well, yesterday I had a promising Valk make it down to Gehennom, with
plenty of ability to kill things, and there were all these wraiths, and
I thought, first of all, wraiths are pretty easy to kill, and second,
their corpses are yummy to eat. But I lost a whole lot of XP levels to
them (I went from 14 down to 7!), and they didn't leave me ANY corpses!
Do wraiths just not leave corpses in Gehennom? Well, I guess I will
learn in the future to kill the wraiths with wands and projectiles.
From that point, so many things went wrong for this Valk -- I fell in
the water on another level and blanked all my good scrolls, and had many
other problems, and so I decided to go back up and see if the Norn would
finally let me undertake the Quest, and the Norn said, "No, sweetie, no
yet", so I got frustrated and decided to experiment with a really bad
idea, just to see what would happen, and I murdered all the Quest
warriors, and then attacked the Norn herself. I knew this was a bad
idea and would make Odin very very unhappy, but I figured what the heck
it would be a learning experience, and maybe the goodies in the Quest
levels would make up for God's wrath, and if I found a /oCM I could
always sacrifice sufficiently to get back in his good graces. (Is that
true? Will any amount of sacrifice make up for trying to murder the Norn?)
However -- the Norn just mad, kicked me hard, and teleported me out of
the Quest level and deleted the magic portal from the game.
Now I know.
--Mark
Boudewijn Waijers
> I'm starting to consistently get my Valks further down into the dungeons
> without dying -- I'm now frequently getting to the Quest, Fort Ludios,
> the Medusa level, the Castle, and Gehennom. And I'm learning a few
> things by bitter, bitter experience. First of all, electric eels are
> REALLY nasty. I'm tired of having my =oRegen and =oTelepCtrl and /oWish
> explode. Grrr. But I'm learning how to avoid/kill them.
You're learning. Good.
By the way, you're lucky that it's only your rings and wands getting lost. We
wouldn't want to lose *you* wouldn't we?
Mind you: a lot of nastier things can happen with eels than just losing an
item or two. Did you happen to follow the recent discussion on (almost)
instant deaths?
> [Wraiths] [...] I lost a whole lot of XP levels to
> them (I went from 14 down to 7!), and they didn't leave me ANY corpses!
Well, this is where magic cancellation (MC) comes into play. MC is measured on
a scale of 1 to 3, and is a property of body armour and cloaks. Every other
piece of armour (except for the cornuthaum) has an MC factor of zero.
Magic cancellation affects the chance of success of the following special
attacks: fire, cold, electricity, sleep, poison, paralysis, level
drain, "sticking to" ("You cannot escape from the mimic!" -- but not
grab-attacks by, for example, owlbears or krakens), lycanthropy,
teleport, intrinsic speed stealing (shades and skeletons), energy drain,
slime and disenchanting. Note that it does NOT affect the success
probability of ray attacks, nor does it help against "defensive attacks"
(like a floating eye's paralysis).
The protection provided by MC increases exponentially: an MC of 1 means that
about 33% of all such attacks that would normally hit will still mis, an MC of
2 cancels 65%, and an MC of 3 cancels almost all such attacks (98%). If you
cancel a monster (with a wand or by spell), all such attacks will miss.
To know the MC value of a single piece of armour, look it up in the following
table:
Suits
leather jacket -
leather armor -
orcish ring mail 1
studded leather armor 1
ring mail -
scale mail -
orcish chain mail 1
chain mail 1
elven mithril coat 3
splint mail 1
banded mail -
dwarvish mithril coat 3
bronze plate mail -
plate mail (tanko) 2
crystal plate mail 2
Cloaks
mummy wrapping 1
orcish cloak 2
dwarvish cloak 2
cloak of displacement 2
oilskin cloak 3
alchemy smock 1
cloak of invisibility 2
clk of magic resistance 3
elven cloak 3
robe 3
cloak of protection 3
Helmets
cornuthaum 2
So, a piece of armour with a good MC factor is a *must* to obtain, or run away
from every wraith, shade, ghoul, vampire, and their likes whenever you spot
them!
> Do wraiths just not leave corpses in Gehennom?
No, but the chance of them doing so in the *first* level of Gehennom is
marginally small. Every level that contains a "graveyard" (a lot of " ", G, &,
V, and W in a room filled with graves) decreases the chance that wraiths
killed on that level will leave a corpse greatly.
Also, if I recall correctly, wraiths killed by you are less likely to leave a
corpse than wraiths that die in another way (killed by traps, conflict, your
pet, ...).
> Well, I guess I will
> learn in the future to kill the wraiths with wands and projectiles.
As shown above, this isn't really necessary.
> From that point, so many things went wrong for this Valk -- I fell in
> the water on another level and blanked all my good scrolls, and had many
> other problems, and so I decided to go back up and see if the Norn would
> finally let me undertake the Quest, and the Norn said, "No, sweetie, no
> yet",
You should have tried *before* that wraith took you below XP level 14...
> so I got frustrated and decided to experiment with a really bad
> idea, just to see what would happen, and I murdered all the Quest
> warriors, and then attacked the Norn herself. I knew this was a bad
> idea and would make Odin very very unhappy, but I figured what the heck
> it would be a learning experience, and maybe the goodies in the Quest
> levels would make up for God's wrath, and if I found a /oCM I could
> always sacrifice sufficiently to get back in his good graces. (Is that
> true? Will any amount of sacrifice make up for trying to murder the Norn?)
In the end, killing anough non-peacefuls and offering many corpses will get
you back in your God's grace. However, you still won't be able to finish the
game, as you probably suspect already, since you wrote the following:
> However -- the Norn just mad, kicked me hard, and teleported me out of
> the Quest level and deleted the magic portal from the game.
>
> Now I know.
To complete the game, you need the fabled Bell, Book and Candelabrum. The Bell
is to be found in the Quest. Since you cannot complete the Quest, you won't
ever be able to finish it.
If you like, gather some more XP, get more victory points (by digging for
gems), and then just leave the dungeon at level 1, ending your game.
Sorry.
--
Boudewijn Waijers (www.win.tue.nl/~kroisos)
En toen keek ik je aan
en toen wou ik je slaan,
want je had zo vervelend gelijk...
-- Birgitte Kaandorp
Cliff Simpson
> I'm starting to consistently get my Valks further down into the dungeons
> without dying -- I'm now frequently getting to the Quest, Fort Ludios,
> the Medusa level, the Castle, and Gehennom.
That's great.
> Do wraiths just not leave corpses in Gehennom?
Wraiths do not leave corpses in any graveyard level which, oddly, includes the
castle level.
If they follow you to another level then you will often get a corpse.
BTW: Anyone ever tame a bunch of wraiths to take them to another level? Very
fast.
> Well, I guess I will
> learn in the future to kill the wraiths with wands and projectiles.
Or find a way to prevent level drain.
> ... really bad idea snipperd
If you kill your quest leader then who is going to send you on your quest?
Without the leader you cannot go on the quest, without the quest you cannot get
the bell of opening, without the bell of opening you cannot get to where the
amulet is kept, without the amulet you cannot ascend.
> Now I know.
You are closer than you know to beating this game.
--
Cliff
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~csimpson/
Mark O'Bannon
> Well, this is where magic cancellation (MC) comes into play.
time. Oh, well.
> You should have tried [the Quest] *before* that wraith took you below XP level 14...
Oh, I did, I did.
> In the end, killing anough non-peacefuls and offering many corpses will get
> you back in your God's grace
Good to know.
> However, you still won't be able to finish the game, as you probably suspect already ... > To complete the game, you need the fabled Bell, Book and Candelabrum. The Bell
> is to be found in the Quest. Since you cannot complete the Quest, you won't
> ever be able to finish it.
Never having got that far, I didn't know exactly what the bell was for,
although I knew it was important, and I certainly knew that trying to
kill the Norn was a dumb idea. Basically, I was committing suicide out
of frustration, but also, I kind of just wanted to find out what would
happen. I was surprised to find that the warriors don't defend each
other -- each one got angry only when I attacked him or her.
On the bright side, this was my best-scoring character ever, by a couple
hundred thousand points!!! She finally got killed by a hill giant.
Sam Dennis
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>> [wraiths draining levels]
>> Well, this is where magic cancellation (MC) comes into play.
>
> I was wearing GDSM and wielding Magicbane, and still having a tough
> time. Oh, well.
Magic cancellation (MC) is not the same thing as magic resistance (MR)! Both
magicbane and GDS(M) provide the latter, but not the former. Cloaks are the
normal source of the magic cancellation, with elven cloaks (useful if you can't
find any of the others), oilskin, magic resistance, protection and robes all
having a MC of 3.
Actually, dragon scales should really have at least a MC of 1, I'd have
thought, but they don't, and so will not protect you against these things.
--
++acr@,ka"
Boudewijn Waijers
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>> Well, this is where magic cancellation (MC) comes into play.
> I was wearing GDSM and wielding Magicbane, and still having a tough
> time. Oh, well.
Which is not what I was talking about. I never mentioned magic resistance,
which is what is provided by GDSM and Magicbane. I talked about magic
cancellation, which is an entirely different thing.
> Never having got that far, I didn't know exactly what the bell was for,
> although I knew it was important, and I certainly knew that trying to
> kill the Norn was a dumb idea. Basically, I was committing suicide out
> of frustration, but also, I kind of just wanted to find out what would
> happen. I was surprised to find that the warriors don't defend each
> other -- each one got angry only when I attacked him or her.
The same goes for soldiers, for example. They only come to one anothers aid
when any one of them blows a alarm on a bugle.
Boudewijn Waijers
> Mark O'Bannon wrote:
>> Do wraiths just not leave corpses in Gehennom?
> Wraiths do not leave corpses in any graveyard level which, oddly, includes
the
> castle level.
> If they follow you to another level then you will often get a corpse.
Which is exactly why the Castle counts as a graveyard as well. Since the level
following it (the Valley of the Dead) is guaranteed to be a graveyard level,
it would be too easy to just lure the wraiths there up one level, so the Dev
Team, may it be blessed forever, has decided to make the level above that a
graveyard level as well.
You can still lure them to a non-graveyard level, but that means you either
have to lure them through or around the Castle, OR you must pass them and lure
them further down into Gehennom.
> You are closer than you know to beating this game.
"This game" meaning NetHack, not his current game. His current game is lost.
Cliff Simpson
>
> "Cliff Simpson" <csim...@ucalgary.ca> wrote...
> > Mark O'Bannon wrote:
>
> >> Do wraiths just not leave corpses in Gehennom?
>
> > Wraiths do not leave corpses in any graveyard level which, oddly, includes
> the
> > castle level.
> > If they follow you to another level then you will often get a corpse.
>
> Which is exactly why the Castle counts as a graveyard as well. Since the level
> following it (the Valley of the Dead) is guaranteed to be a graveyard level,
> it would be too easy to just lure the wraiths there up one level, so the Dev
> Team, may it be blessed forever, has decided to make the level above that a
> graveyard level as well.
I understand why they did it but is it the exception to the
"unnaturally quiet" messages and their are no graves so I thought it
was worth mentioning.
I know I killed a lot of wraiths up there before I figured it out :0
> > ...
> > You are closer than you know to beating this game.
>
> "This game" meaning NetHack, not his current game. His current game is lost.
Right, that's what I meant. I think making it past the castle is
almost home free :)
BTW: someone mentioned Rodney being tougher in 3.4. I second and
third that. I lost a char to him that killed him 7 times before even
leaving the sanctum.
--
Ray Chason
>No, but the chance of them doing so in the *first* level of Gehennom is
>marginally small. Every level that contains a "graveyard" (a lot of " ", G, &,
>V, and W in a room filled with graves) decreases the chance that wraiths
>killed on that level will leave a corpse greatly.
Furthermore, the Castle, Medusa's lair IIRC, all demon lairs, the
Wizard's tower, and Vlad's tower count as graveyards for the purpose
of undead slaying. Wraiths are best killed on ordinary maze- or room-
levels.
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
Grebbsy McLaren
wrote in article <3D1D29DE...@ucalgary.ca>...
>> > ...
>> > You are closer than you know to beating this game.
>>
>> "This game" meaning NetHack, not his current game. His current game is lost.
>
>Right, that's what I meant. I think making it past the castle is
>almost home free :)
I wish! I've made it past there half a dozen times and still no YAFAP.
Grebbsy
--
"All vampires suck, but not all who suck are vampires."
(--B.J.Kuehl)
<:::Grebbsy McLaren::::gre...@grebbsy.org.uk:::::::lemon curry?:::>
Tina Hall
> Wraiths do not leave corpses in any graveyard level which,
Not true, the chance is just smaller. I've seen wraith corpses in
tVotD (which is usually a waste, as there's rarely a pet around
to eat it).
> BTW: Anyone ever tame a bunch of wraiths to take them to
> another level? Very fast.
Why? Just so I get corpses I rarely want anyway? :)
My Caveman locked a wraith in a room somewhere on the level it
was spawned, to come back later with a pet, but then it didn't
leave a corpse after all...
--
A. Tina "summer stinks" Hall - Spring is an atrocity, but summer
is like waking up to find you spent the night with Demogorgon,
already feeling deathly sick, and all your gear is spread across
various bermuda piles. (Emails: <Tina...@railroad.robin.de>)
John Q. Smith
> It was a dark and stormy night when Cliff Simpson <csim...@ucalgary.ca>
> wrote in article <3D1D29DE...@ucalgary.ca>...
>
>>>>...
>>>>You are closer than you know to beating this game.
>>>
>>>"This game" meaning NetHack, not his current game. His current game is lost.
>>
>>Right, that's what I meant. I think making it past the castle is
>>almost home free :)
>
>
> I wish! I've made it past there half a dozen times and still no YAFAP.
>
> Grebbsy
Were you prepared? MC 3, MR, normal resistances, etc? Did you use the
castle wand wisely? Did you have your AK put together? Did you have
good stashes set up on the way up? Were you carrying too much (being
burdened is too much) or didn't you have speed boots? Do you know how
to deal with all the endgame nasties? (e.g. dive through, mapping &
digging all of Gehennom, nuke Vlad, mark the VS with the bell & filled
candleabrum, etc.)? The endgame spoilers helped me enough so that
everyone who has been to the castle except the first ill-fated [almost]
illiterate V has survived the endgame. Of course, part of it may have
been my severe over-preparation... The most challenging thing I do is
to remain burdened on the plains with the treasure I drag along... :)
Boudewijn Waijers
> ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:
>> Not true, the chance is just smaller. I've seen wraith corpses in
>> tVotD (which is usually a waste, as there's rarely a pet around
>> to eat it).
> Errr.. pet? Don't you ever eat them yourself?
> Are you normally already at explevel 30 before reaching the Valley, or do
> you just aim to remain at as low explevel as you can?
She said "it", not "them", so she must have been talking about the Valley of
the Dead itself. Which pet is large enough to eat *that*, I wonder... :-)
Tina Hall
>
> She said "it", not "them", so she must have been talking about
> the Valley of the Dead itself. Which pet is large enough to
> eat *that*, I wonder... :-)
LOL.
The one that stomped through it just before the whole dungeon
collapses (due to eaten levels no doubt)?
--
Tina the Loony St:10 Dx:6 Co:8 In:10 Wi:14 Ch:10 Chaotic
Home2:0 $0 HP:61(63) Pw:15(15) Ac:10 Exp:10/8191 T:>15379200
____________________________________________________________
Emails: <Tina...@railroad.robin.de> only, just to be sure.
Tina Hall
> ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:
>
> > Not true, the chance is just smaller. I've seen wraith
> > corpses in tVotD (which is usually a waste, as there's
> > rarely a pet around to eat it).
>
> Errr.. pet? Don't you ever eat them yourself?
Rarely.
> Are you normally already at explevel 30 before reaching the
> Valley, or do you just aim to remain at as low explevel as you
> can?
I try to keep my level low. last ascension (boohoo, no more 'last
game...'; killed a character in [S] after that) I reached XL:16
somewhere on the Planes, only because my caveman was too stupid
to find the silly portals, on Earth and then on Fire, and decided
to finally kill off some of those monsters that kept getting in
the way. Had saved a !oConf + scroll, and a crystal ball, for Air
and Water. Actually had 3 ?oGD, but not much to get confused
with... Monsters kept cursing all sorts of stuff, except the
?oConfuseM I'd carried openly in hope of that effect... (Should
have used unholy water, but all of what I had left went for other
stuff.)
Anyway, I see no point in raising the XL beyond what I need for
the skill enhances, and unfortunately for the Quest. (Voting for
lowering the XL requirement for that.) If I see a wraith corpse,
I just drag it along in hope of feeding it to some pet, or leave
it, unless I need the levels for the Quest, when I might or might
not eat a wraith corpse, or it's a rare game where I try to get a
high level for some reason.
Rast
<yrj1yap...@despammed.com>:
> ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:
>
> > Not true, the chance is just smaller. I've seen wraith corpses in
> > tVotD (which is usually a waste, as there's rarely a pet around
> > to eat it).
>
No. Haven't you ever read YAAP from Tina? She prefers to stay low
level to reduce the level of generated monsters. I disagree with this,
approach, but then again you don't see me ascending seven times in a
row...
> Are you normally already at explevel 30 before reaching the Valley, or do
> you just aim to remain at as low explevel as you can?
If you already are level 30, eating a wraith is a no-brainer: you get
more HP and mana.
--
"Do you think that they, with their Battles, Famine, Black Death
and Serfdom, were less enlightened than we are, with our Wars,
Blockade, Influenza and Conscription?" -- T. H. White
Dylan O'Donnell
> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kro...@win.tue.nl> wrote:
>
> >No, but the chance of them doing so in the *first* level of
> >Gehennom is marginally small. Every level that contains a
> >"graveyard" (a lot of " ", G, &, V, and W in a room filled with
> >graves) decreases the chance that wraiths killed on that level will
> >leave a corpse greatly.
>
> Furthermore, the Castle, Medusa's lair IIRC, all demon lairs, the
> Wizard's tower, and Vlad's tower count as graveyards for the purpose
> of undead slaying. Wraiths are best killed on ordinary maze- or room-
> levels.
Not quite. The levels that count as graveyard levels for the purpose
of reducing the chances of undead leaving corpses are:
any level with a graveyard on it (duh). Of pre-defined levels, those
are the Valley of the Dead, Orcus' level, Moloch's Sanctum, and the
Tourist Quest home, locate, and goal levels; for the Priest Quest,
see later
the Castle
the entirety of the Priest Quest
the top and bottom levels of the Wizard's Tower
any level on which you have used a cursed Bell of Opening or Book of
the Dead.
--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: N - Bethnal Green E - Swiss Cottage :
: S - Caledonian Road W - Knightsbridge :
: [East to play, Mornington Crescent in 3] :
Grebbsy McLaren
wrote in article <3D1E40A...@az.rmci.net>...
>Grebbsy McLaren wrote:
>> It was a dark and stormy night when Cliff Simpson <csim...@ucalgary.ca>
>> wrote in article <3D1D29DE...@ucalgary.ca>...
>>
>>>>>...
>>>>>You are closer than you know to beating this game.
>>>>
>>>>"This game" meaning NetHack, not his current game. His current game is lost.
>>>
>>>Right, that's what I meant. I think making it past the castle is
>>>almost home free :)
>>
>>
>> I wish! I've made it past there half a dozen times and still no YAFAP.
>>
>> Grebbsy
>
>Were you prepared? MC 3, MR, normal resistances, etc? Did you use the
>castle wand wisely? Did you have your AK put together? Did you have
>good stashes set up on the way up? Were you carrying too much (being
>burdened is too much) or didn't you have speed boots? Do you know how
>to deal with all the endgame nasties? (e.g. dive through, mapping &
>digging all of Gehennom, nuke Vlad, mark the VS with the bell & filled
>candleabrum, etc.)?
Well, not exactly. Because...
>The endgame spoilers helped me enough so that
>everyone who has been to the castle except the first ill-fated [almost]
>illiterate V has survived the endgame. Of course, part of it may have
>been my severe over-preparation... The most challenging thing I do is
>to remain burdened on the plains with the treasure I drag along... :)
>
...I try not to read the spoilers too much. I figure that when I finally
do ascend I'll be able to feel that much more of an achievement.
Having said that, if I ever get as far as the amulet I'll probably
succumb. (The one time I killed the Wizard I was devastated not to find
the amulet on him, and only later learnt where it was actually to be
found...)
Tina Hall
> Jukka Lahtinen wrote on 30 Jun 2002 14:48:57 +0300 in article
> <yrj1yap...@despammed.com>:
[wraith corpses only good for pets?]
> >
> > Errr.. pet? Don't you ever eat them yourself?
>
> No. Haven't you ever read YAAP from Tina?
Oh, you still read them? Nice. :) I thought they were getting
tedious...
> She prefers to stay low level to reduce the level of generated
> monsters. I disagree with this, approach, but then again you
> don't see me ascending seven times in a row...
Six please. <g> (There was a gas spore incident in between the
six and the last one, as well as 3 [S] games, 2 of which ended in
deaths.) Am still somewhat puzzled at that row of ascensions...
:)
Why do you disagree with the approach to keep the level low? What
do you gain by high level?
Btw, XL:15/16 doesn't keep you from meeting Archons on the
Planes, after all, if you only hang around long enough... Fire
was actually kind of funny, leading a wide procession of hostile
monsters back and forth across the level in hope that one of them
would disappear through the portal...
> > Are you normally already at explevel 30 before reaching the
> > Valley, or do you just aim to remain at as low explevel as
> > you can?
>
> If you already are level 30, eating a wraith is a no-brainer:
> you get more HP and mana.
I prefer foocubi whenever I don't mind to gain some more levels,
they can give Power too along with restoring that to max.
Rast
<MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> Why do you disagree with the approach to keep the level low? What
> do you gain by high level?
Spellcasting ability. I like every post-castle character to have SDSM,
robe, helm of brilliance and the [wished for] "oAethiopica. Makes the
rest of the game go by very fast.
Also, reverse genociding wraiths is the fastest and easiest way to stack
your HP up high, and this has the "side effect" of very quickly raising
your level to 30. (I'm going to have to try getting foocubi from sinks,
casting charm monster to make them peaceful, then luring them all to
Sokoban for an orgy -- more work but doesn't cost marker charges.)
Conversely, you don't lose anything from being high level. I've died
exactly once post-castle, and it wasn't from a high level monster whom I
would have avoided by staying low.
Rast
<yrjd6u8...@despammed.com>:
> > > Are you normally already at explevel 30 before reaching the Valley, or do
> > > you just aim to remain at as low explevel as you can?
>
> > If you already are level 30, eating a wraith is a no-brainer: you get
> > more HP and mana.
>
> HP.
Um, what? If you're already level 30 a wraith will give you ~5 HP and
some mana, and you'll remain level 30. That's better than feeding it to
a pet, unless you're trying to get a level 40 titan for bragging
purposes (why bother, he will just eat a chameleon corpse on the next
level and turn into something useless).
Boudewijn Waijers
> Rast <ra...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> If you already are level 30, eating a wraith is a no-brainer: you get
>> more HP and mana.
> Umm, you call more HP a no-brainer? I don't ever feel like having too much
> HP.
I guess that by a no-brainen he meant that you just eat it, without even
thinking about it.
Of course that could result in YASD, if you happen to be satiated.
--
Boudewijn Waijers (kro...@win.tue.nl -- www.win.tue.nl/~kroisos).
"When working towards a deadline, my programmers can go 72 hours without
sleep."
-- Bill Gates, in an interview. The result should be noted... :-)
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote on Mon, 1 Jul 2002 00:25:00 GMT+1 in article
> <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > Why do you disagree with the approach to keep the level low?
> > What do you gain by high level?
>
> Spellcasting ability. I like every post-castle character to
> have SDSM, robe, helm of brilliance and the [wished for]
> "oAethiopica. Makes the rest of the game go by very fast.
Not every character can wish for the Eye, and not being at XL:30
hasn't stopped me from casting spells.
> Also, reverse genociding wraiths is the fastest and easiest
> way to stack your HP up high,
Hm... I prefer alchemy. What a shame that there isn't any kind of
alchemy to produce !oGE. Besides, you don't really need high Hp,
something around 150 when going for Rodney is enough, when you
just keep a bunch of !oFH with you to restore lost Hp.
Reverse genociding wraiths just seems like too much bother (afair
I've tried it a while ago), almost like nurse-dancing (that
definitely isn't worth the bother, IMO).
> (I'm going to have to try getting foocubi from sinks, casting
> charm monster to make them peaceful, then luring them all to
> Sokoban for an orgy -- more work but doesn't cost marker
> charges.)
Lure (better yet level-teleport with) them before you make them
peaceful, and not to Sokoban, just your favorite altar-room;
you'll always have one handy to chat to in between sacrificing
sessions.
They take time to recover, and only keep following you around
when hostile.
When you're chaotic, you can create your happy little harem right
on the altar with same-race sacrifices.
> Conversely, you don't lose anything from being high level.
Hmm... Low level looks better. <g>
> I've died exactly once post-castle, and it wasn't from a high
> level monster whom I would have avoided by staying low.
Post-Castle, all I remember is the dumb barbarian going into
Gehennom without MR (knowing full well what 'L' can do). :)
Mark O'Bannon
Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>
I never mentioned magic resistance,
> which is what is provided by GDSM and Magicbane. I talked about magic
> cancellation, which is an entirely different thing.
I'm still a little foggy on this. I think I was wearing sufficient armor
to get good magic cancellation of the kind you were talking about in the
table you gave. (By the way, where does dragon mail come in on this
property?) Also, are you saying that zapping a wraith with a wand of
cancellation will prevent him from depriving me of a level? And
something I've never been completely clear on, if you zap a wand of
cancellation at something, is there a 100% chance of it cancelling the
monster, or some lesser percent chance?
Thanks
--Mark
Mark O'Bannon
> I think making it past the castle is
> almost home free :)
Truly? Wow, that's heartening. Ascension, here I come.
Dylan O'Donnell
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> >
> I never mentioned magic resistance,
> > which is what is provided by GDSM and Magicbane. I talked about magic
> > cancellation, which is an entirely different thing.
>
> I'm still a little foggy on this. I think I was wearing sufficient armor
> to get good magic cancellation of the kind you were talking about in the
> table you gave.
It's particular types of armour that grant MC. Look at armr-340.txt,
the hash-marks in the EFFECT column.
> (By the way, where does dragon mail come in on this
> property?)
All dragon scales and DSM have zero factors of magic cancellation.
> Also, are you saying that zapping a wraith with a wand of
> cancellation will prevent him from depriving me of a level?
If the wraith is successfully cancelled, yes.
> And something I've never been completely clear on, if you zap a
> wand of cancellation at something, is there a 100% chance of it
> cancelling the monster, or some lesser percent chance?
The monster gets a magic resistance saving throw. For wraiths, their
base MRST is 15%; this is adjusted by a comparison of its monster
level against the level of your wand (12).
Rast
> Rast wrote:
> > Tina Hall wrote on Mon, 1 Jul 2002 00:25:00 GMT+1 in article
> > <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
>
> > > Why do you disagree with the approach to keep the level low?
> > > What do you gain by high level?
> >
> > Spellcasting ability. I like every post-castle character to
> > have SDSM, robe, helm of brilliance and the [wished for]
> > "oAethiopica. Makes the rest of the game go by very fast.
>
> Not every character can wish for the Eye,
Yes, they can. Just don't go generating artifacts (one or two is OK).
Do the castle first. Wish for "oA, do the Quest, then self-convert to
Neutral. (Even better, you can go to the second level of the Quest,
then self-convert to Neutral, then wish for and use the "oA to go back
to the second level of the Quest and complete the Quest). Yes, you
could get a dungeon without a neutral altar but it has not happened to
me yet.
You can always go with GDSM and "oR, and trust to the much weaker
natural regeneration to keep your power up.
> and not being at XL:30
> hasn't stopped me from casting spells.
Yes but I'll bet it stops you from casting finger of death, polymorph,
cone of cold, dig. I don't think the fail rates on magic mapping and
detect treasure are going to be all that good with a 15th level
character who can't advance in divination spells. You want cure
sickness at 0%.
Most of all, magic missile damage scales directly with level. No
weapons come close to a bouncing level 30 MM. Well, a blessed +7
Grayswandir & blessed +9 silver saber against a single demon prince
might be a little better, but the MM is certainly going to clear the
sanctum and the zoo a lot faster.
> > Also, reverse genociding wraiths is the fastest and easiest
> > way to stack your HP up high,
>
> Hm... I prefer alchemy.
Oh, I do that TOO :) But you have to save up potions; it's not
something you can do instantly after beating there castle.
> What a shame that there isn't any kind of
> alchemy to produce !oGE.
Confused ?oCharging. Needs lots of unihorn polypiling...
> Reverse genociding wraiths just seems like too much bother (afair
> I've tried it a while ago), almost like nurse-dancing (that
> definitely isn't worth the bother, IMO).
Supposedly reverse genociding nurses gives a ton of HP, but I haven't
ever bothered; by the time I'm at that stage I'd prefer to get 100 HP
and 100 mana from wraiths than 300 HP from nurses (I just now made those
numbers up).
> > (I'm going to have to try getting foocubi from sinks, casting
> > charm monster to make them peaceful, then luring them all to
> > Sokoban for an orgy -- more work but doesn't cost marker
> > charges.)
>
> Lure (better yet level-teleport with) them before you make them
> peaceful, and not to Sokoban, just your favorite altar-room;
> you'll always have one handy to chat to in between sacrificing
> sessions.
What sacrificing sessions?
> They take time to recover, and only keep following you around
> when hostile.
That's the beauty of Sokoban -- they don't have anyplace to escape to.
Use a leftover boulder to seal off the first room, pack in 10 or so, and
lean on the 's' key. I've not actually done it before, but it should
work fine. Good idea about summoning them with altar; too bad I'm not
chaotic long.
> > I've died exactly once post-castle, and it wasn't from a high
> > level monster whom I would have avoided by staying low.
>
> Post-Castle, all I remember is the dumb barbarian going into
> Gehennom without MR (knowing full well what 'L' can do). :)
And what level was he?
Richard Bos
_Almost_. Don't forget Demo, double-troubling Rodney, getting stuck in
nastie-summoning lichs, and a couple of other unfortunate or stupid
incidents that can happen...
Richard
Darshan Shaligram
> Mark O'Bannon <mob...@tulane.edu> wrote:
>
>> Cliff Simpson wrote:
>> > I think making it past the castle is
>> > almost home free :)
>>
>> Truly? Wow, that's heartening. Ascension, here I come.
>
> _Almost_. Don't forget Demo,
Demogorgon rarely shows up unless you hang around and party with
major demons for too long. He still hasn't appeared in any of my
vanilla games, and I've played quite a few.
> double-troubling Rodney,
Rodney's a wuss, even if you don't death-ray him. He's never given
me any trouble. With a half-decent weapon you can just beat him to
pulp, each time.
> getting stuck in nastie-summoning lichs,
I'd expect a first ascension attempt to include blessed genocide of
L at the earliest opportunity.
--
Darshan Shaligram dars...@aztec.soft.net
Richard Bos
> in...@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
>
> > Mark O'Bannon <mob...@tulane.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Cliff Simpson wrote:
> >> > I think making it past the castle is
> >> > almost home free :)
> >>
> >> Truly? Wow, that's heartening. Ascension, here I come.
> >
> > _Almost_. Don't forget Demo,
>
> Demogorgon rarely shows up unless you hang around and party with
> major demons for too long. He still hasn't appeared in any of my
> vanilla games, and I've played quite a few.
He showed up for me _once_. Once was enough. And I hadn't played around
with any major demons much.
> > double-troubling Rodney,
>
> Rodney's a wuss, even if you don't death-ray him. He's never given
> me any trouble. With a half-decent weapon you can just beat him to
> pulp, each time.
True. _But_ you can also lose the amulet and spend the rest of your life
looking for it if you're not careful. True, you shouldn't. But you can.
> > getting stuck in nastie-summoning lichs,
>
> I'd expect a first ascension attempt to include blessed genocide of
> L at the earliest opportunity.
So would I. And golden nagas. And titans... oops...
I wasn't trying to claim that Mark doesn't have a decent chance of an
ascension, being past the Castle. He does. I just wanted to point out
that even at that point in the game, lunches are dirt cheap, but not
_entirely_ free.
Richard
Mark O'Bannon
Richard Bos wrote:
I just wanted to point out
> that even at that point in the game, lunches are dirt cheap, but not
> _entirely_ free.
>
Ascension seemed pretty unattainable before, but recently I'm starting
to see the light at the end of the dungeon. Liches seemed unbeatable
until I discovered Magicbane. Energy vortices seemed unbeatable until I
discovered the =oShockRes -- that is, until I figured out that I should
take the time to ID every possible ring before descending too low.
Titans gave me trouble at first until I figured out that they're slower
than me. I'm still having trouble with air elementals, but it sounds
like everybody does, and at least I'm learning what _doesn't_ work with
them. (For example, potions of extra healing don't seem to balance out
the damage done in one turn by an Air E, so it's good to know not to bother.)
--Mark
Richard Bos
> I'm still having trouble with air elementals, but it sounds
> like everybody does, and at least I'm learning what _doesn't_ work with
> them.
Speed does. They're very, very fast; to beat them, you need speed. Speed
boots are almost a necessity; you want intrinsic speed as well.
Richard
David Damerell
>Speed does. They're very, very fast; to beat them, you need speed. Speed
>boots are almost a necessity; you want intrinsic speed as well.
With boots, what purpose does intrinsic speed serve?
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
ptsc
<dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>Richard Bos <in...@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:
>>Speed does. They're very, very fast; to beat them, you need speed. Speed
>>boots are almost a necessity; you want intrinsic speed as well.
>With boots, what purpose does intrinsic speed serve?
You can only be "very fast" if you have the speed intrinsic AND
speed boots (or some other form of speed such as a !oS or the
spell).
ptsc
Chris Trown
Reading the spoilers, eating a Quantum Mechanic should give you
intrinsic speed. Last game, I managed to get a few QM corpses. It
seems that the messages I got upon eating them alternated between "You
speed up" and "You slow down". Can you only get so much speed eating
these things?
Chris...
--
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetant." -- Isaac Asimov
Remove the extra 'o' to reply.
David Damerell
><dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Richard Bos <in...@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:
>>>Speed does. They're very, very fast; to beat them, you need speed. Speed
>>>boots are almost a necessity; you want intrinsic speed as well.
>>With boots, what purpose does intrinsic speed serve?
>You can only be "very fast" if you have the speed intrinsic AND speed boots
Says you! But the source says different. The speed intrinsic makes no
difference at all.
Geoduck
wrote:
(snip)
>And you can get shock resistance by eating a black dragon corpse,
>gelatinous cube, storm giant, black or brown pudding or flesh golem. (Or
>Chromatic Dragon, if you are a caveperson)
Electric eels work as well, if you have some way of getting your hands
on the corpse.
--
Geoduck
Want a WinHack tile set that fits the screen?
Go to:http://www.olywa.net/cook/nhack.htm
Sam Dennis
> ...you can get shock resistance by eating a black dragon corpse, ...
ITYM blue dragon corpse. Black dragons give disintegration resistance.
--
++acr@,ka"
Sam Dennis
> Reading the spoilers, eating a Quantum Mechanic should give you intrinsic
> speed.
Well, either the spoilers you read were incorrect, or you misread them.
Eating a quantum mechanic makes your speed intrinsic flip on or off, depending
on whether it was previously present. (A reference to the uncertainty
principle, of course, as is their teleporting attack.)
--
++acr@,ka"
Raisse the Thaumaturge
> Richard Bos <in...@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:
>>Speed does. They're very, very fast; to beat them, you need speed.
>>Speed boots are almost a necessity; you want intrinsic speed as well.
>
> With boots, what purpose does intrinsic speed serve?
That you're still fast (though not very fast) when you have to take your
speed boots off to wear, for instance, water walking boots. How else
can you dilute potions on the Juiblex level after killing Juiblex? (I
dislike swimming even if I do have magical breathing; it goes wrong far
too often and gives me instant claustrophobia)
Raisse, poisoned by Juiblex
--
ir...@valdyas.org (myself) http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote on Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:02:00 GMT+1 in article
> <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > Rast wrote:
[why high level? - spellcasting with wished for "oEoA and other
beneficial stuff]
> >
> > Not every character can wish for the Eye,
>
> Yes, they can. Just don't go generating artifacts (one or two
> is OK).
Go generating artifacts? It is actually possible to just find
them.
> Do the castle first. Wish for "oA, do the Quest, then
> self-convert to Neutral.
Every game? That'd soon make it rather boring and pointless.
> You can always go with GDSM and "oR, and trust to the much
> weaker natural regeneration to keep your power up.
What weaker natural regeneration? And why GDSM if you've got the
wizard's Eye?
> > and not being at XL:30 hasn't stopped me from casting spells.
>
> Yes but I'll bet it stops you from casting finger of death,
> polymorph, cone of cold, dig.
I don't care much about finger of death; magic missile is nicer
IMO, and still uses too much power, polymorph was 4% fail at
XL:18 (rogue, and I'm not sure I'd want to cast it every game
anyway), I don't want to cast cone of cold, /oCold is just as
good for solidifying lava, and dig was 0% fail (same rogue). It
just depends on what role you play and what skills you have.
Besides, dig is useless in Gehennom, as it just takes too much
power, I'd not even use that with an XL:30 wizard, prefering a
pick-axe for around the stairs, and /oDig for in between when I'm
getting impatient...
> I don't think the fail rates on magic mapping and detect
> treasure are going to be all that good with a 15th level
> character who can't advance in divination spells.
I don't need those spells, they're useful but I can live without
them.
> You want cure sickness at 0%.
Why would I want that? It's just too unreliable because at the
right moment an umber hulk will just wander through the next
corner. Cure sickness is one of the last spells on my list.
> Most of all, magic missile damage scales directly with level.
> No weapons come close to a bouncing level 30 MM. Well, a
> blessed +7 Grayswandir & blessed +9 silver saber against a
> single demon prince might be a little better, but the MM is
> certainly going to clear the sanctum and the zoo a lot faster.
There are other ways to clear them, or just walk past the
monsters (there isn't much bouncing going on in the Sanctum and
the zoo). In the end, the power runs out too fast anyway no
matter whether you've got the Eye or are a wizard, at least in my
games.
I like spellcasting, but every game the same would be boring
indeed. That's why I throw in the occasional 'unable to read
spellbooks' character. :) Also nice to actually wear a [SoR for a
change.
> > > Also, reverse genociding wraiths is the fastest and
> > > easiest way to stack your HP up high,
> >
> > Hm... I prefer alchemy.
>
> Oh, I do that TOO :) But you have to save up potions; it's
> not something you can do instantly after beating there castle.
And? I tend to collect and stash potions for that very reason.
(Lots of alchemy now and again...)
> > What a shame that there isn't any kind of alchemy to produce
> > !oGE.
>
> Confused ?oCharging. Needs lots of unihorn polypiling...
I prefer not to do any polypiling, and that's not Alchemy...
> > Reverse genociding wraiths just seems like too much bother
> > (afair I've tried it a while ago), almost like nurse-dancing
> > (that definitely isn't worth the bother, IMO).
>
> Supposedly reverse genociding nurses gives a ton of HP, but I
> haven't ever bothered; by the time I'm at that stage I'd
> prefer to get 100 HP and 100 mana from wraiths than 300 HP
> from nurses (I just now made those numbers up).
I've really tried nurse-dancing once early on, and it didn't give
me any Hp at all (already had lots though). Afair I tried again
much later just for fun with a found nurse, but confirmed that
it's not worth it.
[foocubi]
> > Lure (better yet level-teleport with) them before you make
> > them peaceful, and not to Sokoban, just your favorite
> > altar-room; you'll always have one handy to chat to in
> > between sacrificing sessions.
>
> What sacrificing sessions?
Those that let me pray again for holy water and/or books.
> > They take time to recover, and only keep following you
> > around when hostile.
>
> That's the beauty of Sokoban -- they don't have anyplace to
> escape to.
You have to get them there first...
> Use a leftover boulder to seal off the first room, pack in 10
> or so, and lean on the 's' key. I've not actually done it
> before, but it should work fine.
Too tedious with the --More-- prompts if they're hostile, and you
have to individually chat with them when they're peaceful, and
then they get their headaches...
> > > I've died exactly once post-castle, and it wasn't from a
> > > high level monster whom I would have avoided by staying
> > > low.
> >
> > Post-Castle, all I remember is the dumb barbarian going into
> > Gehennom without MR (knowing full well what 'L' can do). :)
>
> And what level was he?
No XL would have saved him from the touch of death that killed
him. No idea what level he was, the logfile entry is:
3.3.1 567394 1 32 32 194 210 1 20010811 20010730 42 Bar Orc Mal
Cha Hugh,killed by a touch of death
--
Tina
(insufficiently chaotic): Level 10 HP 61(63) AC 10, confused.
Dayv!
Which of course means that you *will* get the speed intrinsic from
eating one, if you don't have it already.
--
-Dayv!
"I didn't even know Hitler *had* personal sex midgets!"
Sam Dennis
> Sam Dennis <s...@malfunction.screaming.net> wrote:
>> Chris Trown wrote:
>>> Reading the spoilers, eating a Quantum Mechanic should give you intrinsic
>>> speed.
>> [snipped experience with actually doing so]
>>
>> Well, either the spoilers you read were incorrect, or you misread them.
>> Eating a quantum mechanic makes your speed intrinsic flip on or off, depending
>> on whether it was previously present. (A reference to the uncertainty
>> principle, of course, as is their teleporting attack.)
>
> Which of course means that you *will* get the speed intrinsic from
> eating one, if you don't have it already.
The problems described arose from eating one while already having intrinsic
speed. Obviously you will become faster if you don't, but just saying that
they grant the speed intrinsic (or even that they will if you haven't it
already) is only half of the story.
--
++acr@,ka"
Wes Irby
> their corpses are yummy to eat. But I lost a whole lot of XP levels to
> them (I went from 14 down to 7!), and they didn't leave me ANY corpses!
A friendly suggestion. When you lose a level to a wraith or vampire you are set
just below the threshhold to regain the level. When you went from 14 to 13
nothing important had been lost...yet. You were never going to get from 14 to
15 by killing things. You should immediately run away from level draining
monsters (or Elbereth them away) before you lose a second level. Then go kill
anything else and you will regain your lost level and be back to the point of
needing some "magical" means of reaching level 15.
Wes
===
Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you
to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
Wes Irby
> Supposedly reverse genociding nurses gives a ton of HP, but I haven't
> ever bothered; by the time I'm at that stage I'd prefer to get 100 HP
> and 100 mana from wraiths than 300 HP from nurses (I just now made those
> numbers up).
Playing a couple of elf wizards I was nervous about going to the plains with
only a little over 200 HP. I tried the reverse genocide nurses on
non-teleport levels in medium sized locked rooms. Each time I got 4 nurses
and 50 to 60 hp. I also had a very bad experience trying to take advantage
of a single randomly generated nurse. Something got too close and zapped me
with a wand while I was not wearing any reflection. Lucky I only lost some
stuff instead of something really precious!
So how many HP can you get from a single c?oGen with wraiths?
Sam Dennis
> So how many HP can you get from a single c?oGen with wraiths?
Well, c?oG makes d3+3 monsters, if I'm reading it correctly, so a maximum of
six wraiths, the maximum hp increase for a new level changes with role, race
and constitution, but the _maximum_ is 6 * (10 (barbarian low level maximum
increase) + 3 (dwarven same) + 4 (con > 18 bonus)) = 6 * 17 = 102. This,
however, is not only extremely unlikely (one in two chance for each corpse, I
think, and one in thirty of getting the maximum hp from any of of them, total
one in 46656000000. Maybe `extremely unlikely' was an understatement...), nor
only that it requires you to be of a specific role and race, but it also
requires you to be of a low level! A much more realistic estimate is 6 * (2
(quite a few roles' fixed increase above the cut off level) + 2 (dwarven fixed
increase) + 4 (con > 18 bonus)) = 48. Of course, there's still only a one in
sixty-four chance of getting this as the corpses still have to be generated.
Basically, stick to nurses.
--
++acr@,ka"
Tina Hall
> Mark O'Bannon wrote:
[had levels drained by wraiths]
>
> A friendly suggestion. When you lose a level to a wraith or
> vampire you are set just below the threshhold to regain the
> level. When you went from 14 to 13 nothing important had been
> lost...yet. You were never going to get from 14 to 15 by
> killing things.
Huh? What makes you think you can't get to XL:15 by killing
things? It's one of those things that I just _couldn't_ _evade_
in at least two games, and I'd have very much liked to stay at
XL:14.
Remco Gerlich
> Wes Irby wrote:
> > Mark O'Bannon wrote:
>
> [had levels drained by wraiths]
> >
> > A friendly suggestion. When you lose a level to a wraith or
> > vampire you are set just below the threshhold to regain the
> > level. When you went from 14 to 13 nothing important had been
> > lost...yet. You were never going to get from 14 to 15 by
> > killing things.
>
> Huh? What makes you think you can't get to XL:15 by killing
> things? It's one of those things that I just _couldn't_ _evade_
> in at least two games, and I'd have very much liked to stay at
> XL:14.
Right. In my current game, I was finally going to try out your strategy, and
my Priest was going to stay lvl 14. I was rather surprised when I became lvl
15 by killing things, I thought this was almost impossible.
This Priest is fun, by the way. Still polyless/wishless/genoless, managed to
blow up my BoH early in Gehennom, still using my original mace as weapon,
and only found 1 scroll of enchant armour and no markers so far. And still
I'm at the vibrating square :). Let's hope I didn't forget to keep enough
spare candles in Minetown...
--
Remco Gerlich
David Damerell
>Right. In my current game, I was finally going to try out your strategy, and
>my Priest was going to stay lvl 14. I was rather surprised when I became lvl
>15 by killing things, I thought this was almost impossible.
I've gone 14->16 once before I started scumming *cubi. It's made easier if
you carefully whack every eel you meet; 1,000 XP each is a fair chunk of
the 40,000 that's 14->15.
Rast
<3D235C8C...@hotmail.com.nospam>:
> So how many HP can you get from a single c?oGen with wraiths?
On average you'll get 5 wraiths. I don't know what the odds are of one
leaving a corpse.
In the typical case of a human high level character who has 18 Con and
is not a Valk, Barb, or Tourist, you will gain 5 HP per corpse. If you
wear a ring of gain Con while eating, you'll gain 6 HP.
Power gain varies a lot by class and is random, but a typical case is a
human with 23 Wis who is not a [Hea Kni Mon Pri Wiz Bar Val]; he gains
d12+1 Pw; on average that's 7.5. Best case is a high level elven Wiz
with 25 Wis; he gains (d15+2)x2 Pw; on average that's 20.
(all this is based on my reading of hppw-340)
Rast
> Rast wrote:
> > Tina Hall wrote on Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:02:00 GMT+1 in article
> > <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > > Rast wrote:
>
> [why high level? - spellcasting with wished for "oEoA and other
> beneficial stuff]
> > >
> > > Not every character can wish for the Eye,
> >
> > Yes, they can. Just don't go generating artifacts (one or two
> > is OK).
>
> Go generating artifacts? It is actually possible to just find
> them.
It's pretty rare to find more than one just lying around in the main
dungeon or mines; I can't think of any games where I've found more than
one there (and then both the fooBrands in Gehennom, and then Angels with
their artifact swords but of course by then I'd wished for the artifact
I want).
> > Do the castle first. Wish for "oA, do the Quest, then
> > self-convert to Neutral.
>
> Every game? That'd soon make it rather boring and pointless.
I don't make it to the Castle every game, or even often.
If you want to talk boring and pointless, look at Gehennom. The
challenge is getting there, not beating it, and so once I've beaten the
early- and mid- game I try to blast through Gehennom as fast as
possible,
both in RL and in-game turns.
> > You can always go with GDSM and "oR, and trust to the much
> > weaker natural regeneration to keep your power up.
>
> What weaker natural regeneration? And why GDSM if you've got the
> wizard's Eye?
That's caster gear if you don't wish for the Eye.
> I don't care much about finger of death; magic missile is nicer
> IMO, and still uses too much power,
Well if you are only level 14 of course it's going to seem to use up a
lot of power, because your natural power regeneration is so much less
and you don't have much of a power pool for extended casting. Your
regeneration is 1/3 of what it would be at level 30, and 1/16th of what
it would be with the Eye.
> polymorph was 4% fail at
> XL:18 (rogue, and I'm not sure I'd want to cast it every game
Rogues are Skilled with matter spells.
The robe, max stats, +5 helm of brilliance, and level 30 is so you can
take a class who is restricted in matter spells, and still cast
polymorph at ~60% fail. And yes it is tedious at times, but if it'll
save me a wish I'll do it.
> > I don't think the fail rates on magic mapping and detect
> > treasure are going to be all that good with a 15th level
> > character who can't advance in divination spells.
>
> I don't need those spells, they're useful but I can live without
> them.
Gehennom without magic mapping makes my brain overheat and melt, and
then
all I'm good for is playing Diablo. :-)
> > You want cure sickness at 0%.
>
> Why would I want that? It's just too unreliable because at the
> right moment an umber hulk will just wander through the next
> corner. Cure sickness is one of the last spells on my list.
Hmm, fair enough. Now that you mention this, I always get that spell at
0% but I can't remember ever actually casting it.
> > Most of all, magic missile damage scales directly with level.
> > No weapons come close to a bouncing level 30 MM. Well, a
> > blessed +7 Grayswandir & blessed +9 silver saber against a
> > single demon prince might be a little better, but the MM is
> > certainly going to clear the sanctum and the zoo a lot faster.
>
> There are other ways to clear them, or just walk past the
> monsters (there isn't much bouncing going on in the Sanctum and
> the zoo).
My point is that versus a major demon you can pin it between a wall and
your SDSM and get in 3 hits per MM, and versus hordes of anything else
you can kill 5 at a time.
> I like spellcasting, but every game the same would be boring
> indeed. That's why I throw in the occasional 'unable to read
> spellbooks' character. :) Also nice to actually wear a [SoR for a
> change.
But if you're not going to be a caster you'll free up the cloak slot for
MR and thus be able to wear SDSM. That leaves both hands free for
weapons.
[SoR is basically useless long-term unless you are using a found one
while playing wishless or trying to save wishes.
I support the suggestion to make them count as small shields for the
purpose of spellcasting.
> > What sacrificing sessions?
>
> Those that let me pray again for holy water and/or books.
I generally only pray for holy water once, and polypile for spells. The
gods are really selfish in terms of giving out spellbooks, IME.
[foocubi]
> > That's the beauty of Sokoban -- they don't have anyplace to
> > escape to.
>
> You have to get them there first...
& like to follow you.
> > Use a leftover boulder to seal off the first room, pack in 10
> > or so, and lean on the 's' key. I've not actually done it
> > before, but it should work fine.
>
> Too tedious with the --More-- prompts if they're hostile, and you
> have to individually chat with them when they're peaceful, and
> then they get their headaches...
Name each one, alphabetically, and chat in order. I am SO going to try
this, next time I play.
Boudewijn Waijers
news:MPG.178ead51e...@pnews.dmv.com...
> Tina Hall wrote on Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:53:00 GMT+1 in article
> <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> It's pretty rare to find more than one just lying around in the main
> dungeon or mines; I can't think of any games where I've found more than
> one there (and then both the fooBrands in Gehennom, and then Angels with
> their artifact swords but of course by then I'd wished for the artifact
> I want).
I don't wish for artifacts, but in my current game, I have already found
three: Werebane, the Sunsword, and Sting (which I refuse to use, it being
chaotic *and* cursed).
I got two at an altar: Mjollnir (of course) and Frost Brand (appropriate for a
valkyrie, as well).
Then again, I always map every level, and carry away everything I find, even
if I'm playing a polypile-free character. Currently though, I'm making an
exception for body armour from the Castle, since I already have b+2GDSM. I did
carry all armour off the Ludios level, though and took it three levels down to
an altar to try it all on.
> Gehennom without magic mapping makes my brain overheat and melt, and
> then
> all I'm good for is playing Diablo. :-)
Since I always map every level, I never use magic mapping. If I do, I can't
remember where I've been and where not.
> Hmm, fair enough. Now that you mention this, I always get that spell at
> 0% but I can't remember ever actually casting it.
Which just means you're playing carefully, not that the spell isn't useful...
> I support the suggestion to make them count as small shields for the
> purpose of spellcasting.
And make the choice what to wear for spellcasters even more easy?
--
Boudewijn Waijers (kro...@win.tue.nl -- www.win.tue.nl/~kroisos).
"When working towards a deadline, my programmers can go 72 hours without
sleep."
-- Bill Gates, in an interview. The result should be noted... :-)
Rast
<ag2tj1$jt$1...@reader1.tiscali.nl>:
> > Gehennom without magic mapping makes my brain overheat and melt, and
> > then
> > all I'm good for is playing Diablo. :-)
>
> Since I always map every level, I never use magic mapping. If I do, I can't
> remember where I've been and where not.
In normal levels, you can usually see because rooms you have not yet
been to are unlit on the map. IIRC.
In Gehennom, who cares? Magic map the level, cast detect treasure
(optional), grab any items (also optional), and teleport/dig to the next
stairs.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote on Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:53:00 GMT+1 in article
> <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > Rast wrote:
> >
> > Go generating artifacts? It is actually possible to just
> > find them.
>
> It's pretty rare to find more than one just lying around in
> the main dungeon or mines;
Last [S] ascension I found some sword in a shop, and continued to
find more useless artifact weapons before I ever thought about
wishing for anything, or I'd have wished for some chaotic
artifact dagger (for the MR).
Then we've got my current [S] hobbit tourist who only wanted to
get back his luck, and got some artifact boots, then he wanted to
get back his luck again, and got some artifact short sword
(rather like that, though). (Never mind that right now he's as
far from being a caster as a caveman, with that armor... But he's
only still sneaking through the mines.)
> If you want to talk boring and pointless, look at Gehennom.
I'd rather not. <g> (Do you have any ideas how to make that more
interesting?)
No, the point is, if you do every game the same way, it gets
boring even before Gehennom.
> > > You can always go with GDSM and "oR, and trust to the much
> > > weaker natural regeneration to keep your power up.
> >
> > What weaker natural regeneration? And why GDSM if you've got
> > the wizard's Eye?
>
> That's caster gear if you don't wish for the Eye.
Sometimes I'd like to wear an "oMB and a [CoMR and silver dragon
scale mail too.
> > I don't care much about finger of death; magic missile is
> > nicer IMO, and still uses too much power,
>
> Well if you are only level 14 of course it's going to seem to
> use up a lot of power, because your natural power regeneration
> is so much less and you don't have much of a power pool for
> extended casting. Your regeneration is 1/3 of what it would
> be at level 30, and 1/16th of what it would be with the Eye.
No, my power runs out even with a past-Quest wizard, there's just
never enough.
> The robe, max stats, +5 helm of brilliance, and level 30 is so
> you can take a class who is restricted in matter spells, and
> still cast polymorph at ~60% fail. And yes it is tedious at
> times, but if it'll save me a wish I'll do it.
You polypile, I prefer not to. Not only because I like to keep
some kind of conduct, but because it is tedious.
> Gehennom without magic mapping makes my brain overheat and
> melt, and then all I'm good for is playing Diablo. :-)
Don't know that game
> > There are other ways to clear them, or just walk past the
> > monsters (there isn't much bouncing going on in the Sanctum
> > and the zoo).
>
> My point is that versus a major demon you can pin it between a
> wall and your SDSM and get in 3 hits per MM, and versus hordes
> of anything else you can kill 5 at a time.
Provided you've got a handy wall or can line them up, and the
latter needs more than one spell while they move around...
My point is not what you might be able to do with spells, but
that every game with the same strategy is pointless, IMO.
> > I like spellcasting, but every game the same would be boring
> > indeed. That's why I throw in the occasional 'unable to read
> > spellbooks' character. :) Also nice to actually wear a [SoR
> > for a change.
>
> But if you're not going to be a caster you'll free up the
> cloak slot for MR and thus be able to wear SDSM. That leaves
> both hands free for weapons.
Not every role that's bad at casting can wield two weapons. And I
disagree with the implication that every caster wears a robe. I
want difference, not always the same boring AK.
> [SoR is basically useless long-term unless you are using a
> found one while playing wishless or trying to save wishes.
Last ascension (Vanilla, gnomish caveman) I actually wished for a
[SoR because I got tired of looking for one in Gehennom, and when
there was another (master?) mind flayer I wanted to eat but was
satiated, I dug out my /oW and got myself an "oMB and a [SoR.
Didn't get anything from the corpse but the rest of the game went
much faster without looking for what was missing...
No need for magic mapping (didn't know a single spell, not even a
forgotten one), just go from the bottom up and chase some coward
master/arch-lich to the upstairs, and then go get the collected
scrolls of magic mapping if Vlad's stairs haven't been found by
then. (My only problem was that I mis-read my handwriting and
read them on the wrong level.)
The good thing with this strategy is that you know when you've
reached the level with the VS (teleport to '99' from the Valley),
and don't have to search again when you don't find another
downstairs.
> I support the suggestion to make them count as small shields
> for the purpose of spellcasting.
Don't know whether that'd be any good, I rarely wear small
shields with casters or anyone else...
> > > What sacrificing sessions?
> >
> > Those that let me pray again for holy water and/or books.
>
> I generally only pray for holy water once, and polypile for
> spells. The gods are really selfish in terms of giving out
> spellbooks, IME.
I usually don't polypile, but pray for holy water whenever I can.
> [foocubi]
>
> > > That's the beauty of Sokoban -- they don't have anyplace
> > > to escape to.
> >
> > You have to get them there first...
>
> & like to follow you.
I've already mentioned that they'll only do that when they're
hostile. If you charm them first they _won't_ follow you.
--
A. Tina "summer stinks" Hall - Spring is an atrocity, but summer
is like waking up to find you spent the night with Demogorgon,
already feeling deathly sick, and all your gear is spread across
various bermuda piles. (Emails: <Tina...@railroad.robin.de>)
Dylan O'Donnell
> Wes Irby wrote on Wed, 03 Jul 2002 16:20:28 -0400 in article
> <3D235C8C...@hotmail.com.nospam>:
>
> > So how many HP can you get from a single c?oGen with wraiths?
>
> On average you'll get 5 wraiths. I don't know what the odds are of one
> leaving a corpse.
>
> In the typical case of a human high level character who has 18 Con and
> is not a Valk, Barb, or Tourist, you will gain 5 HP per corpse. If you
> wear a ring of gain Con while eating, you'll gain 6 HP.
"is not a Valk, Barb, Caveman, Knight, or Tourist", in fact:
> (all this is based on my reading of hppw-340)
Which, I happened to notice while making the other changes today, was
inaccurate on those two roles, so I fixed it.
--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: N - Bethnal Green E - Swiss Cottage :
: S - Caledonian Road W - Knightsbridge :
: [East to play, Mornington Crescent in 3] :
Dayv!
>
> I don't wish for artifacts, but in my current game, I have already found
> three: Werebane, the Sunsword, and Sting (which I refuse to use, it being
> chaotic *and* cursed).
Sting won't blast non-orcs, not that that helps the "cursed" part...
Boudewijn Waijers
news:ag2tj1$jt$1...@reader1.tiscali.nl...
> I don't wish for artifacts, but in my current game, I have already found
> three: Werebane, the Sunsword, and Sting (which I refuse to use, it being
> chaotic *and* cursed).
>
> I got two at an altar: Mjollnir (of course) and Frost Brand (appropriate for
a
> valkyrie, as well).
Add Dragonbane to that, which I found in the Castle's weaponry, immediately
*after* dispensing of two of the four guaranteed dragons...
Rast
> Rast wrote:
> > Tina Hall wrote on Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:53:00 GMT+1 in article
> > <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > > Rast wrote:
> > If you want to talk boring and pointless, look at Gehennom.
>
> I'd rather not. <g> (Do you have any ideas how to make that more
> interesting?)
Other than changing it in the levels editor? No.
> No, the point is, if you do every game the same way, it gets
> boring even before Gehennom.
But it's not always the same, by a long shot. I usually don't get my AK
together until the castle, so until then I'm getting by with whatever I
find and sometimes a little bit of wand polypiling. If I'm playing a
class with decent divination spell ability, and I find the good
divination spell books, I'll use them. But every game is different.
> Sometimes I'd like to wear an "oMB and a [CoMR and silver dragon
> scale mail too.
That is fine, if you don't want to cast spells a lot :P I just love the
fail reduction robes give; can't imagine taking a character past the
Castle in any other cloak. I haven't played a Wizard in 8 months or so,
but I expect they can probably do without a robe.
> No, my power runs out even with a past-Quest wizard, there's just
> never enough.
Gain more levels :)
> > Gehennom without magic mapping makes my brain overheat and
> > melt, and then all I'm good for is playing Diablo. :-)
>
> Don't know that game
Like real-time nethack with good graphics and no thinking involved.
> My point is not what you might be able to do with spells, but
> that every game with the same strategy is pointless, IMO.
> And I
> disagree with the implication that every caster wears a robe. I
> want difference, not always the same boring AK.
For non-wizards, you pretty much need a robe to get failure rates to
zero. It makes a huge difference.
> > > > What sacrificing sessions?
> > >
> > > Those that let me pray again for holy water and/or books.
> >
> > I generally only pray for holy water once, and polypile for
> > spells. The gods are really selfish in terms of giving out
> > spellbooks, IME.
>
> I usually don't polypile, but pray for holy water whenever I can.
> > & like to follow you.
>
> I've already mentioned that they'll only do that when they're
> hostile. If you charm them first they _won't_ follow you.
Good point. In wiz mode, they follow me up stairs, but do not make any
particular effort to follow me TO the stairs. So go to Sokoban, then
tame them.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote on Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:20:00 GMT+1 in article
> <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > Rast wrote:
>
> > > If you want to talk boring and pointless, look at
> > > Gehennom.
> >
> > I'd rather not. <g> (Do you have any ideas how to make that
> > more interesting?)
>
> Other than changing it in the levels editor? No.
Not 'for other ways' but 'how' to change them was my question. :)
I'd be happy to fiddle around with the level descriptions, but so
far I've only got some vague ideas.
> > No, the point is, if you do every game the same way, it gets
> > boring even before Gehennom.
>
> But it's not always the same, by a long shot. I usually don't
> get my AK together until the castle, so until then I'm getting
> by with whatever I find and sometimes a little bit of wand
> polypiling. If I'm playing a class with decent divination
> spell ability, and I find the good divination spell books,
> I'll use them. But every game is different.
So no Eye of Aethiopica and the same kit for everyone after all?
I'm confused.
> > Sometimes I'd like to wear an "oMB and a [CoMR and silver
> > dragon scale mail too.
>
> That is fine, if you don't want to cast spells a lot :P
I like to cast a lot of spells, it just gets boring if every
character goes for maximum spell casting ability, they almost do
anyway but I try to get some diversity. My main reason for my
cavemen not reading any books and hoping (and even wishing) for a
[SoR.
> I just love the fail reduction robes give; can't imagine taking
> a character past the Castle in any other cloak.
I like oiskin cloaks too, more for diversity than protection.
In Slash'EM it's rather a bother that the robes (and thus the
robe of power) is body armor - no dragon scale mail if you wear
one.
</[S]>
> I haven't played a Wizard in 8 months or so, but I expect they
> can probably do without a robe.
They can. Finger of Death, Cancellation and Turn Undead (to name
a few high level spells) all at 0% while skilled or expert, +5
[HoB and XL:23. Afair skilled suffices too.
> > No, my power runs out even with a past-Quest wizard, there's
> > just never enough.
>
> Gain more levels :)
That doesn't really help. I've run out of Power with several
thousand points available. :)
> > > Gehennom without magic mapping makes my brain overheat and
> > > melt, and then all I'm good for is playing Diablo. :-)
> >
> > Don't know that game
>
> Like real-time nethack with good graphics and no thinking
> involved.
'Good graphics' is something I definitely don't want anything to
do with. Some silly animation just annoys me, especially if it
can't be turned off. The Nethack tiles are just about perfect,
and the ASCII is just fine too. IMO every interesting game should
have something like that (like Dungeon Keeper, the game is nice
but the graphic is just awfully annoying).
I only came to Nethack because I was complaining (in a German
Fido roleplaygame area) about the lack of games without some
supposed 'nice' graphics, but with an actual game behind it. The
people there recommended Nethack (and Angband, which I remembered
from some years before that). :)
--
Tina the Loony St:10 Dx:6 Co:8 In:10 Wi:14 Ch:10 Chaotic
Home2:0 $0 HP:61(63) Pw:15(15) Ac:10 Exp:10/8191 T:>15379200
Kamen
=2F22.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org:
[snip]
> 'Good graphics' is something I definitely don't want anything to
> do with. Some silly animation just annoys me, especially if it
> can't be turned off. The Nethack tiles are just about perfect,
> and the ASCII is just fine too. IMO every interesting game should
> have something like that (like Dungeon Keeper, the game is nice
> but the graphic is just awfully annoying).
>
> I only came to Nethack because I was complaining (in a German
> Fido roleplaygame area) about the lack of games without some
> supposed 'nice' graphics, but with an actual game behind it. The
> people there recommended Nethack (and Angband, which I remembered
> from some years before that). :)
The difference between Diablo and games with "good graphics" is that
Diablo really looks good. It has *style*, not just eye-candy. I am a huge
fan of Diablo II LoD and I recommend it to all Windows users in rgrn. But
you should play it in Single Player mode only. Battle.net just spoils the
game and makes it more boring than Gehennom without magic mapping.
--
Kamen K. | kir...@abv.bg
"I hate quotes." | http://free.top.bg/kamenk/
Tina Hall
> Thus spoke Tina...@railroad.robin.de (Tina Hall) in
> news:MSGID_2=3A2437 =2F22.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org:
>
> [snip]
> > 'Good graphics' is something I definitely don't want
> >
>> I only came to Nethack because I was complaining [...] about
>> the lack of games without some supposed 'nice' graphics, [...]
>
> The difference between Diablo and games with "good graphics"
> is that Diablo really looks good.
You seem to have missed my point entirely. I don't want some
bloated graphics, certainly not any wants-to-look-real-but-fails-
miserably stuff, and I might not even agree that it looks good.
(Actually asked a friend who knows the game and my taste in such
things pretty well, and he said that I'd say it looks crap. <g>)
> It has *style*, not just eye-candy. I am a huge fan of Diablo
> II LoD and I recommend it to all Windows users in rgrn.
Anything needing windoze to run is just another point against it.
Whatever doesn't run here isn't worth running. ;P
> But you should play it in Single Player mode only.
If you enjoy Diabolo, that's great for you. I don't want to play
it. Please, don't try to convert the heathens, let's stay with
Nethack where we can agree that it's a great game. :)
David Cochran
> The difference between Diablo and games with "good graphics" is that
> Diablo really looks good. It has *style*, not just eye-candy. I am a huge
> fan of Diablo II LoD and I recommend it to all Windows users in rgrn. But
> you should play it in Single Player mode only. Battle.net just spoils the
> game and makes it more boring than Gehennom without magic mapping.
Agreed. On the other hand, the "no thinking necessary" part is also
true, and it can be a pain to have to run back and forth to the town.
On the other hand, it IS nice to have a place to sit where monsters
aren't generated, every once in a while :)
Rast
<MSGID_2=3A2437=2F22.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> Rast wrote:
> > Tina Hall wrote on Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:20:00 GMT+1 in article
> > <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > > Rast wrote:
> >
> > > > If you want to talk boring and pointless, look at
> > > > Gehennom.
> > >
> > > I'd rather not. <g> (Do you have any ideas how to make that
> > > more interesting?)
Make Gehennom much shorter, say 9 levels (Dante gave his hell 9
circles), counting the VotD.
Ditch the two lame demon lord lairs (I can't remember their names).
Keep Orcustown and Juiblex's marsh.
Put Rodney's tower in a separate branch, much like Vlad's, and make it
smaller -- it's annoying slogging through all the monsters, and most of
them don't have any chance at killing you. Is it supposed to be a zoo
or a wizard's tower? Because it is more like the local animal shelter
than the home of a powerful wizard.
A lava level and an ice level, or a level with both.
Don't just fill up all the unused spaces with maze -- that's lazy and
boring. A cavern level (like the mines, but more open) with random
large pools of lava, and the areas around the lava lit but the rest
dark, would be cool.
> > > No, the point is, if you do every game the same way, it gets
> > > boring even before Gehennom.
> >
> > But it's not always the same, by a long shot. I usually don't
> > get my AK together until the castle, so until then I'm getting
> > by with whatever I find and sometimes a little bit of wand
> > polypiling. If I'm playing a class with decent divination
> > spell ability, and I find the good divination spell books,
> > I'll use them. But every game is different.
>
> So no Eye of Aethiopica and the same kit for everyone after all?
> I'm confused.
If I'm playing a neutral non-wizard character who gets a wish pre-castle
and already has DSM (so probably has already gotten one wish), I'll wish
for the "EoA. Otherwise, I can't get it until the castle. My
characters are all different until the castle, after which they
generally switch to the same old caster gear.
> > I haven't played a Wizard in 8 months or so, but I expect they
> > can probably do without a robe.
>
> They can. Finger of Death, Cancellation and Turn Undead (to name
> a few high level spells) all at 0% while skilled or expert, +5
> [HoB and XL:23. Afair skilled suffices too.
Not so with the other classes. I made up an elven ranger in wiz mode,
got her level 30 and max stats and a +5 [HOB, and maxed the applicable
spell skills. Without the robe she had failure rates of 20% or worse
in most all the major spells, including some divination ones. With the
robe nearly everything except the restricted level 5+ spells went to 0%
failure.
> --
Your sig delimiter is slacking off :P
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote on Sun, 14 Jul 2002 14:07:00 in article
> <MSGID_2=3A2437=2F22.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > Rast wrote:
[how to make Gehennom more interesting]
>
> Make Gehennom much shorter, say 9 levels (Dante gave his hell
> 9 circles), counting the VotD.
That sounds good.
> Ditch the two lame demon lord lairs (I can't remember their
> names). Keep Orcustown and Juiblex's marsh.
The other two would be Asmodeus and Baalzebub, I think. Compared
to those, Juiblex is rather a whimp, though. The marsh is more
bother to travel through than the mazes too. I like Orcustown,
though. Pretty much the only reliable source to get tame shades.
:) (Skeletons are fun too, though chatting to them seemed to have
a nasty side-effect.)
> Put Rodney's tower in a separate branch,
That will remove the possibility of waking him early (or
deliberate) with a tame (or peaceful?) (M)MF.
> much like Vlad's, and make it smaller -- it's annoying slogging
> through all the monsters, and most of them don't have any
> chance at killing you.
It does have the occasional 'nice' monster, but the majority is
just rather bothersome, I agree.
With Vlad's I've considered making it larger, more like those
castles in Dracula movies.
> Is it supposed to be a zoo or a wizard's tower?
Well, there is a treasure zoo. <g>
> Because it is more like the local animal shelter than the home
> of a powerful wizard.
<g>
Maybe he takes in abandoned pets. No wonder they're all so
hostile toward adventurers.
> A lava level and an ice level, or a level with both.
Yes, more lava would make sense in hell anyway, don't know about
the ice, though.
You mentioned Dante, what are his different circles like?
(Something like a theme for each?)
> Don't just fill up all the unused spaces with maze -- that's
> lazy and boring.
That's what I was mainly wondering about, how to best get rid of
them. :) A few smaller maze parts are ok, IMO, but level after
level completely filled with them are rather tedious.
> A cavern level (like the mines, but more open) with random
> large pools of lava, and the areas around the lava lit but the
> rest dark, would be cool.
I can picture that. :)
> > So no Eye of Aethiopica and the same kit for everyone after
> > all? I'm confused.
>
> If I'm playing a neutral non-wizard character who gets a wish
> pre-castle and already has DSM (so probably has already gotten
> one wish), I'll wish for the "EoA. Otherwise, I can't get it
> until the castle. My characters are all different until the
> castle, after which they generally switch to the same old
> caster gear.
No wonder Gehennom is especially boring for you then. What about
chaotic and lawful characters? Afair you mentioned conversion,
too. Don't they ever keep their alignment?
> > --
>
> Your sig delimiter is slacking off :P
I've checked the file that has the rgrn-sigs, the spaces are
there and I didn't re-edit the post after it was added. Checked
the actual post too, and the space is in there as well. Must have
gotten lost somewhere else.
--
Tina
(insufficiently chaotic): Level 10 HP 61(63) AC 10, confused.
Darshan Shaligram
> Rast wrote:
[Making Gehennom more interesting]
>> Don't just fill up all the unused spaces with maze -- that's
>> lazy and boring.
>
> That's what I was mainly wondering about, how to best get rid of
> them. :) A few smaller maze parts are ok, IMO, but level after
> level completely filled with them are rather tedious.
You could use Michael Clarke's idea of random mazes with
nonstandard walls - ice, lava, water, iron bars (although the iron
bars mazes are torture to traverse, so I'd advise against those) -
the lava, ice and water mazes are cool, especially if you populate
the water with a few krakens and stuff.
>> A cavern level (like the mines, but more open) with random
>> large pools of lava, and the areas around the lava lit but the
>> rest dark, would be cool.
Ideally, the random level generation for Gehennom should be
improved, since too many predefined levels aren't good for the
game.
I wouldn't mind Gehennom's mazes if they were interspersed with
large chambers, filled with nasty monsters and interesting terrain
features. It's the maze upon unending maze that gets me.
--
Darshan Shaligram dars...@aztec.soft.net
Chi
[how to make Hell more interesting]
> Make Gehennom much shorter, say 9 levels (Dante gave his hell 9
> circles), counting the VotD.
Yes but three of those circles (the sins of malice) were sub-divided
into rounds/chasms/zones*, and there was also an abyss (with geryon).
* The 7th circle (violence) was subdivided into three rounds, the 8th
circle (fraud) into 10 chasms, and the 9th circle (treachery) into 4
zones.
Regards,
Chris "Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate".
Dayv!
>
> Tina Hall wrote on Sun, 14 Jul 2002 14:07:00 in article
> <MSGID_2=3A2437=2F22.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
>
> circles), counting the VotD.
>
> boring. A cavern level (like the mines, but more open) with random
> large pools of lava, and the areas around the lava lit but the rest
> dark, would be cool.
I'd like to see nine distinct rings of hell with each ring occupying
two or three similarly themed levels. This would give 18 to 27 levels of
hell with far less repetition than the current mazes. The existing demon
lord levels could be worked into part of certain rings, and the mazes
could still be kept for one ring of hell...
Kamen
2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org:
[snip]
> If you enjoy Diabolo, that's great for you. I don't want to play
> it. Please, don't try to convert the heathens, let's stay with
> Nethack where we can agree that it's a great game. :)
>
I said I recommended it to Windows users, not to you. You're one non-
Diablo-playing heathen I won't be able to convert ;-p
Tina Hall
> >
> > That's what I was mainly wondering about, how to best get
> > rid of them. :) A few smaller maze parts are ok, IMO, but
> > level after level completely filled with them are rather
> > tedious.
>
> You could use Michael Clarke's idea of random mazes with
> nonstandard walls - ice, lava, water, iron bars (although the
> iron bars mazes are torture to traverse, so I'd advise against
> those)
<g>
You don't want monsters shooting at you without being able to
close up? ;)
> - the lava, ice and water mazes are cool, especially if
> you populate the water with a few krakens and stuff.
Good idea.
> Ideally, the random level generation for Gehennom should be
> improved, since too many predefined levels aren't good for the
> game.
True, but that's for other people to contemplate how to do it. :)
> I wouldn't mind Gehennom's mazes if they were interspersed
> with large chambers, filled with nasty monsters and
> interesting terrain features. It's the maze upon unending maze
> that gets me.
Me too. I like small maze parts, just not too much of them. I've
also tried to come up with some level-layout with a mazewalk
that'd produce a more interesting semi-maze, maybe I should get
back to that.
Darshan Shaligram
> Darshan Shaligram wrote:
>>
>> [Making Gehennom more interesting]
>>
>> You could use Michael Clarke's idea of random mazes with
>> nonstandard walls - ice, lava, water, iron bars (although the
>> iron bars mazes are torture to traverse, so I'd advise against
>> those)
>
> You don't want monsters shooting at you without being able to
> close up? ;)
Well, it does get annoying when you have a fire vampire in a parallel
corridor, shooting off fireballs at you every odd move :) Extremely
prolific with the fireballs, those Lethe fire vampires.
More to the point, the bars force you to traverse the maze or
teleport if you just want to reach the stairs.
--
Darshan Shaligram dars...@aztec.soft.net
Jacco
> You mentioned Dante, what are his different circles like? (Something
> like a theme for each?)
>
The circles of Dante (with only Nethack relevant items included) would go
something like this:
Outside: the river Acheron with Charon the boatman 1. Limbo: a city with
seven walls and seven gates in the middle, inhabited with shades.
2. Lustful: an infernal storm (hmm air elementals!!) 3. Gluttonous:
guarded by Cerberos, lots of rain and mud, a swampy place. 4. Prodigal:
the god of wealth (Mammon's lair?), not much fun for Nethack purposes.
5. Wrathful: the river Styx with the boatman Phlegyas 6. Heretics: the
city of Dis, which has the Furies (erinyes), Medusa, lots of flaming
graves and iron walls. 7. Violent: an abyss first with Geryon, river of
boiling blood, Minotaur, centaurs, a dead forest with harpies, burning
sands, rains of fire, really fun place :-) 8: Fraudulent: ten "bolgia"
(big pits in Nethack?) with bridges and lots of devils and violence
9. Treacherous: lots of ice and Dispater (Lucifer)
Sounds like a lot more fun then Gehennom as it is now :-)
Any volunteers for coding? Perhaps some of this is already in the
Hellpatch?
--
cu Jacco NH 3.3.1L A (last)
Jacco-Ran-Orc-Fem-Cha HP:370 Pw:141 AC:-33 Xp:24 T:81187
[++ )++ 2 P S+ D++ p+ $ !t s+++ !W E- PS- PP+ !G
C+ I++ @W(65*) N-- !Y X++ So Sp++ sb-- wb-- +374
Rast
<1026753429.25237....@news.demon.co.uk>:
> Rast <ra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [how to make Hell more interesting]
> > Make Gehennom much shorter, say 9 levels (Dante gave his hell 9
> > circles), counting the VotD.
>
> Yes but three of those circles (the sins of malice) were sub-divided
> into rounds/chasms/zones*, and there was also an abyss (with geryon).
I didn't mean the Gehennom should look like exactly Dante's version of
hell, just that it should be a lot shorter and that 9 is a good number.
Dayv!
>
> I didn't mean the Gehennom should look like exactly Dante's version of
> hell, just that it should be a lot shorter and that 9 is a good number.
You may not have meant it, but I think it's a really good idea. I
don't think a literal representation of it is truly possible, but some
real inspiration could be drawn from it.
Tina Hall
> ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> > Darshan Shaligram wrote:
> >>
> >> [Making Gehennom more interesting]
> >
> > You don't want monsters shooting at you without being able
> > to close up? ;)
>
> Well, it does get annoying when you have a fire vampire in a
> parallel corridor, shooting off fireballs at you every odd
> move :) Extremely prolific with the fireballs, those Lethe
> fire vampires.
<g>
Maybe that's why they're called that. ;P
Shouldn't a decent ranged attack take care of that, though?
(Haven't met any of those fire vampires that I remember.)
> More to the point, the bars force you to traverse the maze or
> teleport if you just want to reach the stairs.
True, but a few well placed iron bars might be fun. I don't think
I'd like a whole maze level filled with them any more than you
do.
Rob Ellwood
>
> [9 levels for Gehennom.]
Why stop there?
FASThack: a version of Nethack you can finish in two hours.
Level Description
-------------------
1 Three squares: a staircase up, a staircase down, and a
heap of semi-useful semi-random stuff to get you started.
2-3 Two squares, for stairs up and down. (I need blank
levels to increase the level numbers, or the toughest
monster in Gehennom will be a winter wolf.)
4 One of the "rnd1" levels.
5 A random mines level.
6 Minetown.
7 A random mines level.
8 Mine end, with a staircase down.
9-11 Blank levels.
12 A normal level, with a branch to the quest.
Quest 1: contains the bell of opening, your quest artifact,
and your quest nemesis.
12-17 Blank levels; 1 chest per.
18 Medusa.
19 Castle.
20 Valley of the Dead.
21 Orcus level (for the shops).
22 A maze level, with stairs up to Vlad's tower.
Vlad 1: the final Vlad level.
23 A room with Rodney and the book.
24 Vibrating square.
25 Sanctum.
The planes stay the same.
Balancing this mess would take work. You might have
to give out potions of gain level and healing, especially
at the start. And maybe have a stack of blessed scrolls of
identify in the Sanctum, to simplify life as far as possible.
All of this is possible with the normal level building
tools: no code changes at all. Download the FASThack "nhdat"
file and you're there.
--
Rob Ellwood
"New Toys": new & fixed levels for Nethack
http://members.shaw.ca/rob.ellwood/
Rast
<3D33A38E...@shaw.ca>:
> Rast wrote:
> >
> > [9 levels for Gehennom.]
>
> Why stop there?
>
> FASThack: a version of Nethack you can finish in two hours.
-snip sarcasm-
Gehennom isn't hard. It's just boring. Also, it's stupid and
unoriginal. Making it faster and more interesting is not the same as
giving starting characters a raftload of goodies.
Note that a character in Gehennom has already beaten one of the hardest
levels in the game outside the Planes, and has gotten a wand of wishing
on top of that. Anything to make Gehennom more fun, or more
challenging,
or less tedious is good.
Chi
> Chi wrote:
>> Rast <ra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[how to make Hell more interesting]
>> > Make Gehennom much shorter, say 9 levels (Dante gave his hell 9
>> > circles), counting the VotD.
>>
>> Yes but three of those circles (the sins of malice) were sub-divided
>> into rounds/chasms/zones*, and there was also an abyss (with geryon).
>
> I didn't mean the Gehennom should look like exactly Dante's version of
> hell, just that it should be a lot shorter and that 9 is a good number.
I know you meant that... but I happen to think that a Gehennom inspired
by Dante's Inferno would be a Really Good Idea. And the subdivisions
don't necessarily have to be literal levels... you could simply have a
few comparmentalised levels - some of them have some really interesting
characteristics.
----
The (broken) Gate of Hell would be in the VoTD as it currently is.
Before Hell proper starts, there is the vestibule where uncommiteed
souls go, and then the river Acheron with Charon the ferryman.
1st circle is limbo, where the unbaptised souls go with a seven-walled
castle. Minos stands at the entrance to the second circle
(sexual promiscuity) - where an infernal gale blows restlessly.
Cerberus (the three headed hell hound - currently commented out in
monsters.c) guards the third circle (gluttons) - Icy rains (an Ice level
that people seem to want in Gehennom?)
Fourth circle (moneywasters) - souls doomed to run ceaselessly and
without rest
Fifth circle (the angry) - the lagoons and marsh of River Styx. Souls
are in copnstant fighting with each other (perhaps conflict in NH?).
Phlegyas' ferrys the Damned (who are desitned for lower circles) across.
The Gate of Lower Hell (the City of Dis) encircles the lower circles.
The furies (Eriynes) and Gorgons (perhaps transfer Medusa's level here?)
The gate here is locked.
Sixth circle - heritics and skeptics, buried in boxes (ice boxes? :-)
Seventh circle (Violence): Minotaur
1st round: (violent against others) - boiling red river
Phlegethon (could make it lava), centaurs.
2nd round: (violent against self) - a dark unnatural forest of souls
turned into trees. Harpies.
3rd round: (violent against God, nature, art) - burning sands
Geryon stands at the abyss and waterfall which leads to Malebolge (the
8th circle of Fraud). Made of stone.
1st chasm: procurers and seducers. Souls being whipped by Demons.
2nd chasm: flatterers. Souls plunged in excrement
3rd chasm: Simoniacs. Souls upside down in mouths, burning.
4th chasm: Futurologists. Souls twisted so that they look backwards.
5th chasm: (Malecoda and Malebranche) Grafters & Swindlers. A level of
black pitch. The arch linking this chasm and the next is broken.
6th chasm: Hypocrites. Souls wearing heavy lead cloaks. (naturally
cursed ;-)
7th Chasm: Thieves. Serpents. Metamorphosis (poly traps?)
8th Chasm: Corrupt advisors. Souls engulfed in fire.
9th chasm: Scandelisers. Mangled and wounded souls.
10th chasm: Falsifiers. Forever thirsty.
Giants guard the 9th circle (Treachery)
1st zone (Caina): Traitor to family. Souls tortured in ice.
2nd zone (Antenora): Traitor to country.
3rd zone (Ptolomaea): Traitor to guests.
4th zone (Judecca): Traitor to legitimate lords and masters. Lucifer
(Dis/Dispater) gnaws upon three traitors: Judas Iscariot, Brutus and
Cassius (assassins of Julius Caesar)
----
If I wasn't so crap at planning decent-yet-balanced level designs, I'd
start writing the .dats for it.
Regards,
Chris.
Dylan O'Donnell
> Rast wrote:
> >
> > [9 levels for Gehennom.]
>
> Why stop there?
>
> FASThack: a version of Nethack you can finish in two hours.
This is strangely appealing :-)
> Level Description
> -------------------
> 12 A normal level, with a branch to the quest.
> Quest 1: contains the bell of opening, your quest artifact,
> and your quest nemesis.
> All of this is possible with the normal level building
> tools: no code changes at all. Download the FASThack "nhdat"
> file and you're there.
I don't know about that. Some of the Quest state-machine stuff might
complain about the absence of your Quest Leader, for example. (But I
can't see anything that will cause _immediate_ problems.) Note that
you'll still need to define the dungeons you're not using, otherwise
dname_to_dnum() will panic.
--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "Stay alert! Trust no-one! Keep your laser handy!" :
: -- Greg Costikyan, "Paranoia" :
David Damerell
>Kamen wrote:
>>The difference between Diablo and games with "good graphics"
>>is that Diablo really looks good.
>You seem to have missed my point entirely. I don't want some
>bloated graphics, certainly not any wants-to-look-real-but-fails-
>miserably stuff, and I might not even agree that it looks good.
You don't need to worry about that. The really salient point about Diablo
I and II is "no thinking involved".
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Rob Ellwood
>
> Rob Ellwood wrote on Tue, 16 Jul 2002 04:38:30 GMT in article
> <3D33A38E...@shaw.ca>:
> >
>
> -snip sarcasm-
?
I wasn't being sarcastic. FASThack is a serious suggestion.
It would be massively unbalanced in many ways, but it might be
fun. I might make it on my next level-building frenzy.
My apologies if I irritated you by what looked like an
attack on you. I had the idea as I was reading your post, so I
made it a followup.
> Gehennom isn't hard.
I agree. This is one of its big problems. If the odds
of surviving Gehennom were only 10%, we would find it a lot more
interesting.
> It's just boring.
I agree.
> Making it faster and more interesting is not the same as
> giving starting characters a raftload of goodies.
Correct, and now we're talking about FASThack. I
figured that FASThack would have to give starting characters
a raftload of stuff to speed up the game.
...Actually, that's probably stupid. The early game is
the most interesting, and this would push characters straight
past it. I should leave the first five levels unchanged.
> Note that a character in Gehennom has already beaten one of
> the hardest levels in the game outside the Planes, and has
> gotten a wand of wishing on top of that.
Yes: he's an unstoppable killer. THIS KILLS THE
CHALLENGE. We're now just pushing keys to get past a long,
long stretch with nearly no risk of dying.
> Anything to make Gehennom more fun, or more challenging,
> or less tedious is good.
More and more, I think of Gehennom as a lost cause.
Someone complained that the Hell Patch's special levels get
tedious: the supervillain of the day, ho hum. At least
one person has said that Slash'EMs normal dungeon is too long
and gets boring. I find Angband very dull after about 2500':
it's hard to die, and you're spending a long time trying to
get the next essential bit of equipment.
As I see it, the problem is the lack of risk. Playing
for a long time with essentially no chance of death is boring.
Either add a big chance of dying, or remove those sections
completely.
FASThack refinements: remove the elemental planes
after all. Put the entrance to Vlad's tower on the Orcus
level. Leave the first five levels unchanged.
David Damerell
>I agree. This is one of its big problems. If the odds
>of surviving Gehennom were only 10%, we would find it a lot more
>interesting.
On the other hand, that would be a complete killer so late in the game.
High casualties early on are tolerable; high casualties after investing
6-10 hours in the game are agonising. The Planes are kind of OK because
they're so close to the end; die on the Planes, and at least you so very
nearly made it...
I don't see the problem with Gehennom, anyway; I just ensure I have magic
mapping, and rip through digging between the stairs. Apart from the demon
lords, it's 5 minutes a level, tops.
Tina Hall
> Rob Ellwood <rob.e...@shaw.ca> writes:
[FASThack 'suggestion']
>
> > All of this is possible with the normal level building
> > tools: no code changes at all. Download the FASThack
> > "nhdat" file and you're there.
>
> [...] Note that you'll still need to define the dungeons
> you're not using, otherwise dname_to_dnum() will panic.
Why are they defined anyway? I just searched for that and had a
look at the Slash'EM dungeon.c and there the only branches
defined are the same as in Vanilla plus the Spider Caves, the
rest (from the aligned Quests to Frankenstein's lab, and my own
added test-branch) works just fine without that.
Tina Hall
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:53:00 +0200, Tina Hall engraved in the
> dust:
>
> > You mentioned Dante, what are his different circles like?
> > (Something like a theme for each?)
> >
> The circles of Dante (with only Nethack relevant items
> included) would go something like this:
> Outside: the river Acheron with Charon the boatman 1. Limbo: a
> city with seven walls and seven gates in the middle, inhabited
> with shades. 2. Lustful: an infernal storm (hmm air
> elementals!!)
Why a storm for 'lustful'? (Ok, that might go off-topic.)
> 3. Gluttonous: guarded by Cerberos, lots of rain
> and mud, a swampy place.
Same here, glutton and mud somehow don't match. Where do you get
rain and mud in Nethack? (An extra floor space with mud might be
a nice idea anyway. Something like a cross between spider webs
and ice.)
> Heretics: the city of Dis, which has the Furies (erinyes),
> Medusa, lots of flaming graves and iron walls.
Fire traps and iron bars?
> 7. Violent: an abyss first with Geryon, river of boiling blood,
Lava?
> Minotaur, centaurs, a dead forest with harpies, burning sands,
> rains of fire, really fun place :-)
<g>
How do you get rains of fire and burning sand?
> Sounds like a lot more fun then Gehennom as it is now :-)
I agree.
> Any volunteers for coding? Perhaps some of this is already in
> the Hellpatch?
What about Lethe? It has rivers afaik.
I'd like to work some on the levels, but I can only do that with
what's already possible. I'll let you know what came of it in a
few months. ;)
--
Tina the Loony St:10 Dx:6 Co:8 In:10 Wi:14 Ch:10 Chaotic
Home2:0 $0 HP:61(63) Pw:15(15) Ac:10 Exp:10/8191 T:>15379200
Dylan O'Donnell
> Dylan O'Donnell wrote:
> > Rob Ellwood <rob.e...@shaw.ca> writes:
>
> [FASThack 'suggestion']
> >
> > > All of this is possible with the normal level building
> > > tools: no code changes at all. Download the FASThack
> > > "nhdat" file and you're there.
> >
> > [...] Note that you'll still need to define the dungeons
> > you're not using, otherwise dname_to_dnum() will panic.
>
> Why are they defined anyway?
So the functions In_quest(), In_mines(), In_sokoban(), and
In_V_tower() will work. Various bits of code want to check whether
you're in those branches at certain times to do certain things
differently there.
> I just searched for that and had a
> look at the Slash'EM dungeon.c and there the only branches
> defined are the same as in Vanilla plus the Spider Caves, the
> rest (from the aligned Quests to Frankenstein's lab, and my own
> added test-branch) works just fine without that.
In the case of SLASH'EM, In_spiders() is checked when eggs are created
in that branch, so that they can be made all to be giant spider eggs.
Evidently, the other new branches aren't changing any actual gameplay,
so don't need to be able to be checked for.
--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "No more will I go to Blandford Forum and Mortehoe, :
: On the slow train, from Midsomer Norton and Mumby Road..." :
: -- Michael Flanders, "The Slow Train" :
Jacco
> Jacco wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:53:00 +0200, Tina Hall engraved in the dust:
>>
>> > You mentioned Dante, what are his different circles like? (Something
>> > like a theme for each?)
>> >
>> The circles of Dante (with only Nethack relevant items included) would
>> go something like this: Outside: the river Acheron with Charon the
>> boatman 1. Limbo: a city with seven walls and seven gates in the
>> middle, inhabited with shades. 2. Lustful: an infernal storm (hmm air
>> elementals!!)
>
> Why a storm for 'lustful'? (Ok, that might go off-topic.)
I have no idea, that's the way Dante wrote it.
>
>> 3. Gluttonous: guarded by Cerberos, lots of rain and mud, a swampy
>> place.
>
> Same here, glutton and mud somehow don't match. Where do you get rain
> and mud in Nethack? (An extra floor space with mud might be a nice idea
> anyway. Something like a cross between spider webs and ice.)
The punishments do not always fit the sins in Dante's Inferno. Mud in
Nethack: swamp rooms (it looks rather muddy in here).
>
>> Heretics: the city of Dis, which has the Furies (erinyes), Medusa, lots
>> of flaming graves and iron walls.
>
> Fire traps and iron bars?
Probably the best bet. Can we put firetraps on top of graves?
>> 7. Violent: an abyss first with Geryon, river of boiling blood,
>
> Lava?
A river of lava, yummie!
>
>> Minotaur, centaurs, a dead forest with harpies, burning sands, rains of
>> fire, really fun place :-)
>
> <g>
> How do you get rains of fire and burning sand?
You are the leveldesiger, not me :-)
>> Sounds like a lot more fun then Gehennom as it is now :-)
>
> I agree.
>
>> Any volunteers for coding? Perhaps some of this is already in the
>> Hellpatch?
>
> What about Lethe? It has rivers afaik.
Never tried Lethe, only play vanilla and unpatched Slash'em.
>
> I'd like to work some on the levels, but I can only do that with what's
> already possible. I'll let you know what came of it in a few months. ;)
Well, I can think up some levelmaps for some of them, there are much
longer descriptions of the rings, I just put in the highlights :-)
Mark Johnson
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:53:00 +0200, Tina Hall engraved in the dust:
>
>
>
>>You mentioned Dante, what are his different circles like? (Something
>>like a theme for each?)
>>
>>
> The circles of Dante (with only Nethack relevant items included) would go
> something like this:
> Outside: the river Acheron with Charon the boatman 1. Limbo: a city with
> seven walls and seven gates in the middle, inhabited with shades.
> 2. Lustful: an infernal storm (hmm air elementals!!) 3. Gluttonous:
> guarded by Cerberos, lots of rain and mud, a swampy place. 4. Prodigal:
> the god of wealth (Mammon's lair?), not much fun for Nethack purposes.
> 5. Wrathful: the river Styx with the boatman Phlegyas 6. Heretics: the
> city of Dis, which has the Furies (erinyes), Medusa, lots of flaming
> graves and iron walls. 7. Violent: an abyss first with Geryon, river of
> boiling blood, Minotaur, centaurs, a dead forest with harpies, burning
> sands, rains of fire, really fun place :-) 8: Fraudulent: ten "bolgia"
> (big pits in Nethack?) with bridges and lots of devils and violence
> 9. Treacherous: lots of ice and Dispater (Lucifer)
>
Actually, I liked Niven and Pournell's Inferno (1976) much better. The
main character is an SF author who dies, ends up in Hell, and attempts
to describe everything he sees as a theme park (Infernoland) ran by
advanced beings. He is escorted through much of the levels by a
companion named Benito [Mussolini]. A very good summary of the "new
hell" is at...
http://www.marypat.org/stuff/mywords/dante.html#Sins
I won't try to repeat it all here, but the book is a good read and can
give you ideas for the "new Gehennom". The ascension is not the way you
came in by the way....
> Sounds like a lot more fun then Gehennom as it is now :-)
>
I agree.
Jacco
> Jacco wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:53:00 +0200, Tina Hall engraved in the dust:
>>
>>
>>
>>>You mentioned Dante, what are his different circles like? (Something
>>>like a theme for each?)
>>>
>>>
<SNIP Dante's Inferno description>
>>
> Actually, I liked Niven and Pournell's Inferno (1976) much better. The
> main character is an SF author who dies, ends up in Hell, and attempts
> to describe everything he sees as a theme park (Infernoland) ran by
> advanced beings. He is escorted through much of the levels by a
> companion named Benito [Mussolini]. A very good summary of the "new
> hell" is at...
> http://www.marypat.org/stuff/mywords/dante.html#Sins
> I won't try to repeat it all here, but the book is a good read and can
> give you ideas for the "new Gehennom". The ascension is not the way you
> came in by the way....
I know, got it on my bookshelves, but Tina wanted to know about Dante.
And ascending the way Dante (or Niven's writer) did is probably difficult
to code :-) And Dante's Heaven is a lot friendlyer than the Planes too.
Rast
<3d34c03f$0$12282$e4fe...@dreader4.news.xs4all.nl>:
> Well, I can think up some levelmaps for some of them, there are much
> longer descriptions of the rings, I just put in the highlights :-)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1044/dante.htm has a nice summary of
the various circles of Hell, and the subregions of those circles.
Here are a couple nice drawings, both of which have descriptive text:
http://www.tabula-rasa.info/Images/Inferno.gif
http://www.iath.virginia.edu/dante/images/full1kw.jpg
http://martin.carthage.edu/departments/english/dante/frames/MapsofHell/B
otticelliMap.jpeg is an old painting -- it isn't as easy to see the
details, but it is very realistic and to-scale.
R Shaw
ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:
>> >
>> The circles of Dante (with only Nethack relevant items
>> included) would go something like this:
>> Outside: the river Acheron with Charon the boatman 1. Limbo: a
>> city with seven walls and seven gates in the middle, inhabited
>> with shades. 2. Lustful: an infernal storm (hmm air
>> elementals!!)
>
>Why a storm for 'lustful'? (Ok, that might go off-topic.)
>
Raging passions.
Succubi, incubi and nymphs could also go here.
Use the same movement rules as the plane of air,
no solid ground.
>> 3. Gluttonous: guarded by Cerberos, lots of rain
>> and mud, a swampy place.
>
>Same here, glutton and mud somehow don't match.
The greedy end up wallowing in the mud like pigs,
treating the mud as though it was valuable.
> Where do you get
>rain and mud in Nethack? (An extra floor space with mud might be
>a nice idea anyway. Something like a cross between spider webs
>and ice.)
>
Imagine the mud as being knee deep.
Anything dropped in mud will sink to the bottom.
Players have to grope blindly to pick them up.
Movement is slowed to half speed.
In gehennom the mud should be littered with
glass gems and worthless objects, including
pre-cancelled wands of wishing.
Also thow in some demon-mimics, which act
like mimics but are higher level than giant mimics
with extra attacks.
Maybe make it so that if you pick up any objects
on this level you can't leave it by any means until
you drop them.
---
Matter is fundamentally lazy:- It always takes the path of least effort
Matter is fundamentally stupid:- It tries every other path first.
That is the heart of physics - The rest is details.
Robert
Kamen
news:z6F*Ei...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk:
> Tina Hall <ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org> wrote:
>>Kamen wrote:
>>>The difference between Diablo and games with "good graphics"
>>>is that Diablo really looks good.
>>You seem to have missed my point entirely. I don't want some
>>bloated graphics, certainly not any wants-to-look-real-but-fails-
>>miserably stuff, and I might not even agree that it looks good.
>
> You don't need to worry about that. The really salient point about
> Diablo I and II is "no thinking involved".
You can have plenty of thinking in Diablo, but only if you really want
it. Try to beat the Ancients in Hell difficulty with a melee Amazon, for
example. Throw in Hardcore mode and Single Player for the extra
challenge and voila - you have a game that is as difficult as NetHack,
possibly even more difficult.
And about the graphics. They definitely don't try to look real (it's a
fantasy game after all!), that's why they don't fail miserably.
Tina Hall
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:59:00 +0200, Tina Hall engraved in the
> dust:
> > Jacco wrote:
[The circles of Dante (with only Nethack relevant items...]
> >
> > Why a storm for 'lustful'? (Ok, that might go off-topic.)
>
> I have no idea, that's the way Dante wrote it.
'Storm of passion', huh? <g>
>> Where do you get rain and mud in Nethack? (An extra floor
>> space with mud might be a nice idea anyway. Something like a
>> cross between spider webs and ice.)
>
> The punishments do not always fit the sins in Dante's Inferno.
> Mud in Nethack: swamp rooms (it looks rather muddy in here).
That's a little meagre, IMO.
> >> Heretics: the city of Dis, which has the Furies (erinyes),
> >> Medusa, lots of flaming graves and iron walls.
> >
> > Fire traps and iron bars?
>
> Probably the best bet. Can we put firetraps on top of graves?
You can't define gravestones, just graveyard rooms, and I don't
know what happens if you put fire traps in those rooms.
> >> 7. Violent: an abyss first with Geryon, river of boiling
> >> blood,
> >
> > Lava?
> A river of lava, yummie!
Hey, they're nice. :)
> > How do you get rains of fire and burning sand?
>
> You are the leveldesiger, not me :-)
I'd rather thought about how to get them in Nethack in the first
place.
> > I'd like to work some on the levels, but I can only do that
> > with what's already possible. I'll let you know what came of
> > it in a few months. ;)
>
> Well, I can think up some levelmaps for some of them, there
> are much longer descriptions of the rings, I just put in the
> highlights :-)
I'd like to see those maps. (Do you mean drawing them the way
they're displayed in Nethack, or produce a working .des file? If
you just draw the Nethack maps, I could turn that into the needed
data if you like.)
Chi's posted a more detailed description that also sounded quite
nice.
James Wyatt
"Kamen" <kir...@abv.bg> wrote in message
news:Xns924E8CEAAB...@130.133.1.4...
> Thus spoke David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> in
> news:z6F*Ei...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk:
>
> > Tina Hall <ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org> wrote:
> >>Kamen wrote:
> >>>The difference between Diablo and games with "good graphics"
> >>>is that Diablo really looks good.
> >>You seem to have missed my point entirely. I don't want some
> >>bloated graphics, certainly not any wants-to-look-real-but-fails-
> >>miserably stuff, and I might not even agree that it looks good.
> >
> > You don't need to worry about that. The really salient point about
> > Diablo I and II is "no thinking involved".
>
> You can have plenty of thinking in Diablo, but only if you really want
> it. Try to beat the Ancients in Hell difficulty with a melee Amazon, for
> example. Throw in Hardcore mode and Single Player for the extra
> challenge and voila - you have a game that is as difficult as NetHack,
> possibly even more difficult.
(This is only my opinion so feel free to ignore)
It seems to me that Diablo and Nethack are difficult in different ways. In
Diablo, the main skill seems to lie in advancing your character in the
correct way: (e.g. buying lots of strength as a Barbarian and not, say, lots
of intelligence.) In NetHack, skill seems to centre more on combat and
surviving difficult situations.
This is why NetHack needs to have ASCII graphics and why Diablo can get away
with pretty pictures. In NetHack, you can get into situations where every
move counts, so you need the precision that easily differentiable* graphics
can give you. In Diablo, you can't (at least, I don't think so) so it's safe
to give the player graphics that can make the game more clumsy.
Dayv!
>
> Jacco wrote:
>>
>> Tina Hall <ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org> wrote:
>>
>> The punishments do not always fit the sins in Dante's Inferno.
>> Mud in Nethack: swamp rooms (it looks rather muddy in here).
>
> That's a little meagre, IMO.
How about mixing in some "mud traps," where the mud is deeper and
afects movement and fighting... a little bit spiderwebby, a little bit
like gloves/boots of fumbling, and untrappable? Perhaps spilling a
potion, overflowing a fountain, or triggering a rust trap on this level
could create new mud traps...
>> > How do you get rains of fire and burning sand?
>>
>> You are the leveldesiger, not me :-)
>
> I'd rather thought about how to get them in Nethack in the first
> place.
Like the mud, I can't see a way to do either of these without patching
in new effects.
David Damerell
>>Diablo I and II is "no thinking involved".
>You can have plenty of thinking in Diablo, but only if you really want
>it. Try to beat the Ancients in Hell difficulty with a melee Amazon, for
>example. Throw in Hardcore mode and Single Player for the extra
>challenge and voila - you have a game that is as difficult as NetHack,
>possibly even more difficult.
Difficult != thinking. Space Invaders is difficult. E2M8 of Doom on -fast
starting with 50 bullets and the pistol is _very_ difficult. But there's
no thinking there beyond the immediate twitching.
Rayonic
> This is why NetHack needs to have ASCII graphics and why Diablo can get away
> with pretty pictures. In NetHack, you can get into situations where every
> move counts, so you need the precision that easily differentiable* graphics
> can give you. In Diablo, you can't (at least, I don't think so) so it's safe
> to give the player graphics that can make the game more clumsy.
I don't speak your crazy moon language. So... you're saying that
since Nethack is turn-based, it must have graphics that allow you to
quickly differentiate your situation. But since Diablo is real-time,
it can get away with clumsy graphics that take a while to figure out?
Rast
<MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> Rast wrote:
> > Tina Hall wrote on Sun, 14 Jul 2002 14:07:00 in article
> > <MSGID_2=3A2437=2F22.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > > Rast wrote:
>
> [how to make Gehennom more interesting]
> >
> > Make Gehennom much shorter, say 9 levels (Dante gave his hell
> > 9 circles), counting the VotD.
>
>
> > Ditch the two lame demon lord lairs (I can't remember their
> > names). Keep Orcustown and Juiblex's marsh.
>
> The other two would be Asmodeus and Baalzebub, I think. Compared
> to those, Juiblex is rather a whimp, though.
Juiblex has a chance to kill you, despite his slow speed. You could
fall asleep, or something. The others really have no chance against you
if you've used the castle wishes in an intelligent manner.
> The marsh is more
> bother to travel through than the mazes too.
Yes, but it's more interesting, and faster.
> I like Orcustown,
> though. Pretty much the only reliable source to get tame shades.
With a magic trap? I like Orcustown too, because its breaks up the
monotony. Wish it didn't have those mazes to the left.
> > Put Rodney's tower in a separate branch,
>
> That will remove the possibility of waking him early (or
> deliberate) with a tame (or peaceful?) (M)MF.
How often does that happen?
My objection to Rodney's tower being in the main dungeon is that it's a
guaranteed three no-teleport maze levels, and the tower itself is just a
bunch of zoos. If the tower levels were located in a lava cavern, and
the tower itself had something more interesting than Rodney and the
book, I wouldn't mind.
> With Vlad's I've considered making it larger, more like those
> castles in Dracula movies.
A mini-castle, 1/4 the size of the Castle (that is, it would take up 1/4
of the screen instead of all of it). Stairs down to a torture dungeon
(don't all old castles have those?), and stairs up to Vlad's room.
> > A lava level and an ice level, or a level with both.
>
> Yes, more lava would make sense in hell anyway, don't know about
> the ice, though.
Dante's final level was all ice.
> > > So no Eye of Aethiopica and the same kit for everyone after
> > > all? I'm confused.
> >
> > If I'm playing a neutral non-wizard character who gets a wish
> > pre-castle and already has DSM (so probably has already gotten
> > one wish), I'll wish for the "EoA. Otherwise, I can't get it
> > until the castle. My characters are all different until the
> > castle, after which they generally switch to the same old
> > caster gear.
>
> No wonder Gehennom is especially boring for you then.
No, Gehennom is boring because it is 20+ levels of "a maze of twisty
passages, all alike". There is very little reward to be gained, because
you pretty much need the essentials of the AK to go down there, and
because it is tedious to get all the items, even with magic mapping and
detect treasure. Without those spells, you might as well teleport to
the bottom and do the Lich trick, completely skipping each level after
you find the stairs.
> What about
> chaotic and lawful characters? Afair you mentioned conversion,
> too. Don't they ever keep their alignment?
Sure. My Wizard kept her alignment (chaotic). =)
> > > --
> >
> > Your sig delimiter is slacking off :P
>
> I've checked the file that has the rgrn-sigs, the spaces are
> there and I didn't re-edit the post after it was added. Checked
> the actual post too, and the space is in there as well. Must have
> gotten lost somewhere else.
But before it got to me, as Google's copy is missing the delimiter too.
(IIRC you don't have web access, but nevertheless the link is:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=MSGID_2%3D3A2437%3D2F22.13%3D40fido
net_0e6b7d40%40fidonet.org&output=gplain )
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote on Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:53:00 GMT+1 in article
> <MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>:
> > Rast wrote:
> >
> > [how to make Gehennom more interesting]
> >
> > > their names). Keep Orcustown and Juiblex's marsh.
> >
> > The other two would be Asmodeus and Baalzebub, I think.
> > Compared to those, Juiblex is rather a whimp, though.
>
> Juiblex has a chance to kill you, despite his slow speed. You
> could fall asleep, or something.
If you meet him without sleep resistance and free action, it's
your own fault (summoning is too).
> The others really have no chance against you if you've used the
> castle wishes in an intelligent manner.
Where's the difference to Juiblex?
Asmodeus has been reported to be a rather nasty opponent for
someone without cold resistance, Baalzebub might turn into a
threat if you don't have any means to blind yourself.
>> The marsh is more bother to travel through than the mazes too.
>
> Yes, but it's more interesting, and faster.
I think it's more bother because I think it's neither of those.
>> I like Orcustown, though. Pretty much the only reliable source
>> to get tame shades.
>
> With a magic trap?
I prefer charm monster or a magic harp.
> I like Orcustown too, because its breaks up the monotony. Wish
> it didn't have those mazes to the left.
<g>
Someone had a good idea with the mazes, and then it was overdone
by placing them in every level between the Valley and the
Sanctum.
> > > Put Rodney's tower in a separate branch,
> >
> > That will remove the possibility of waking him early (or
> > deliberate) with a tame (or peaceful?) (M)MF.
>
> How often does that happen?
Depends on whether you deliberately do it or not. You can have
that every game if you like.
> My objection to Rodney's tower being in the main dungeon is
> that it's a guaranteed three no-teleport maze levels, and the
> tower itself is just a bunch of zoos. If the tower levels
> were located in a lava cavern, and the tower itself had
> something more interesting than Rodney and the book, I
> wouldn't mind.
Hmmm... I've got a half-done lava cavern lying around
somewhere... ;)
> > With Vlad's I've considered making it larger, more like
> > those castles in Dracula movies.
>
> A mini-castle, 1/4 the size of the Castle (that is, it would
> take up 1/4 of the screen instead of all of it). Stairs down
> to a torture dungeon (don't all old castles have those?), and
> stairs up to Vlad's room.
Yup, that's pretty much the layout I had in mind, except at least
the ground floor would be larger than the castle, actually fill
the whole level, but with a forest and some rock around the
actual castle (the dungeon could be smaller, just the cells and a
torture room).
I'd also prefer a way to do 4 towers with one upstairs each and
only one of them, or the cellar, would have Vlad, randomly. One
of the towers could hold a virgin to rescue. <g> [getting carried
away...] She could grant a useful, unusual intrinsic to her
rescuer, maybe by dropping a unique potion/food object when freed
(being polymorphed into an incubus could have its own special
effect :) ).
> > > A lava level and an ice level, or a level with both.
> >
> > Yes, more lava would make sense in hell anyway, don't know
> > about the ice, though.
>
> Dante's final level was all ice.
Does that have it make any more sense? <g>
> > No wonder Gehennom is especially boring for you then.
>
> No, Gehennom is boring because it is 20+ levels of "a maze of
> twisty passages, all alike".
That's just on top of it. When you're looking for something
useful at least you get the occasional burst of joy when finding
it. :)
> There is very little reward to be gained, because you pretty
> much need the essentials of the AK to go down there,
Some essentials, but by far not everything.
> and because it is tedious to get all the items, even with magic
> mapping and detect treasure.
That is tedious, I agree.
> Without those spells, you might as well teleport to the bottom
> and do the Lich trick, completely skipping each level after you
> find the stairs.
Done that last ascension after getting fed up with looking for a
"oMB and a [SoR, so I finally wished for them. :)
Kamen
Yes, you're right that a difficult game does not necessarily require
thinking. What I meant to say is that in a hardcore Diablo game you have
to plan your character's stats and equipment *very* carefully -
otherwise you're dead the minute you walk out of town in Hell.
This planning is a slow and painful process, that usually involves
hours, even days or weeks of browsing diabloii.net and google searches
of alt.games.diablo2. And when I say I plan my characters' equipment
that doesn't mean that I determine what are the best unique items for
him/her you can have a very high level char with plain magic items, if
they have the mods you need. Planning equipment is a matter of sorting
out priorities, for example - am I looking for a piece of armor with
high defense, or is it better to have more resistances? Planning the
character's skills and stats is an even more complex problem for an
unorthodox characters like the melee Amazon, or a minionless
Necromancer.
To summarize what I just said - thinking in Diablo is done *before*
going out to kill monsters. You can clearly see that there is "no
thinking involved" in slaughtering thousands of demons, but what you
don't see is the management of skills, stats and equipment that is
required to make that slaughter possible.
James Wyatt
> since Nethack is turn-based, it must have graphics that allow you to
> quickly differentiate your situation. But since Diablo is real-time,
> it can get away with clumsy graphics that take a while to figure out?
No, what I was trying (rather obliquely) to say was that it needs graphics
that
allow you to differentiate your situation because its difficulty lies
(partly)
in micromanagement (like, say, making sure that your magic missile spell
will
actually hit what you're aiming at) and for that you need to have a clear
idea of what's going on. Diablo's micromanagement is a lot more forgiving so
it can have fancy graphics and real-time action.
I have a horrible habit of tripping over my own tongue. :)
Nick vanRijn
>>
>> Same here, glutton and mud somehow don't match. Where do you get rain
>> and mud in Nethack? (An extra floor space with mud might be a nice idea
>> anyway. Something like a cross between spider webs and ice.)
>
>The punishments do not always fit the sins in Dante's Inferno. Mud in
>Nethack: swamp rooms (it looks rather muddy in here).
Perhaps gluttony is pig-likeness?
Here lies Rodney, choked on a food ration