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Priest Quest: Dark Days
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Chris Bowers
Jan 24, 2021, 9:18:12 AM1/24/21
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Priest Quest: Dark Days is a nethack variant I'm working on which will be programmed solely using tactics in wizard mode.
I've asked Nethack Devs in the past for a way to un-wizard mode a file with no response. Once I have a complete game to play I think they'll be more amenable to unwiz the file after I send it is.
The theme is in terms of the D&D old basic modules titled "solo quests" where just one person would sit down with a Dungeon master and run an adventure.
The theme is that you are a low level priest (my favorite class) summoned by a higher level priest to the Dungeon 500 years after the first ascension, when Rodney rises again. In this alternate timeline, some of the gods are dead: and all of the artifacts are gone, lost and forgotten in the sands of time.
Artifacts won't be wishable, nor will a sacrificing at an altar produce them. The only guaranteed artifact will be the priest quest artifact, the Mitre of Holiness. This is because to mess with quest nemesis might invoke a "trickery" which fouls the game.
However, in this future timeline there will be NEW artifacts. How is this accomplished? Wizard mode allows you to over enchant items when you wish for them. Therefore a ring of increase damage +10 is certainly an artifact (giving any weapon you wield damage equal to or greater to most artifacts), and wands can be overcharged as well (A wand of Fire with 50 charges is certainly a powerhouse). Over enchanting can also create armor and weapon artifacts, such that you can create say, chainmail +13 that has a higher defensive bonus than +7 Silver Dragon scale mail.
I will be making the variant with 3.4.3. Why? Because 3.4.3 allows permanent engraving. This allows riddles, clues, signs, and descriptions to be used throughout the game. These messages will be permanent clues, such that secret treasure troves (dropped in a pit and covered by a boulder) as well as the secret to new artifact locations can be revealed or alluded to.
Every single guaranteed item in nethack (Such as the Castle wand) will be completely stripped out of the game. Candles will be a reward for beating each boss. Did I mention bosses? This means you can't count on the luckstone, you can't count on Izshak, there is no altar in minetown, there is no guaranteed toolship in minetown, there is no blindfold or amulet of lifesaving at vlads, no guaranteed scrolls of earth.
Conversely, there WILL be many guaranteed items in this game, just different ones than the regular nethack game. A guaranteed wand of polymorph sure is nice, so is a guaranteed invisibility source.
To make new bosses in nethack I will again use methods of over enchanting. Ever been hit by a Giant wielding a two handed sword +10? It hurts. A Centaur armed with +10 arrows (or several of them) hurts a lot too. This is not to mention that I will try to get them to higher levels so as to increase their HP as well.
The riders will make early appearances, and since they are not on the astral plane (which has its own rules) there will be ways of trapping or killing the riders permanently on a normal Nethack level.
Sokobon puzzles will all be re-done by digging new holes and adding new boulders. Some sokobon puzzles might not be solveable.
There will be lakes and underground rivers which will also serve as new sokoban puzzles (Making bridges by pushing boulders in water.
The game will try to hold off on having reflection or magic resistance sources untill deep in sokoban. The Castle will feature new treasures and Traps as well as a boss or bosses.
There will definitely be an enchanted forest maze (or two).
Medusa's island will be completely redone, or might not even exist, or might be moved to a much earlier level.
Sadly I won't be able to change the planes in wizard mode and they might seem easy compared to the rest of the dungeon.
This quest will be harder than a normal nethack game, because the guaranteed items have been replaced with stuff you can't look up on a wiki. However in some ways it might be far easier towards the endgame, when you're equipped with your +15 Mace and your +10 Ring of increased damage, with your wand of teleport with 50 charges.
If anyone has any suggestions for the game please let me know.
I've asked Nethack Devs in the past for a way to un-wizard mode a file with no response. Once I have a complete game to play I think they'll be more amenable to unwiz the file after I send it is.
The theme is in terms of the D&D old basic modules titled "solo quests" where just one person would sit down with a Dungeon master and run an adventure.
The theme is that you are a low level priest (my favorite class) summoned by a higher level priest to the Dungeon 500 years after the first ascension, when Rodney rises again. In this alternate timeline, some of the gods are dead: and all of the artifacts are gone, lost and forgotten in the sands of time.
Artifacts won't be wishable, nor will a sacrificing at an altar produce them. The only guaranteed artifact will be the priest quest artifact, the Mitre of Holiness. This is because to mess with quest nemesis might invoke a "trickery" which fouls the game.
However, in this future timeline there will be NEW artifacts. How is this accomplished? Wizard mode allows you to over enchant items when you wish for them. Therefore a ring of increase damage +10 is certainly an artifact (giving any weapon you wield damage equal to or greater to most artifacts), and wands can be overcharged as well (A wand of Fire with 50 charges is certainly a powerhouse). Over enchanting can also create armor and weapon artifacts, such that you can create say, chainmail +13 that has a higher defensive bonus than +7 Silver Dragon scale mail.
I will be making the variant with 3.4.3. Why? Because 3.4.3 allows permanent engraving. This allows riddles, clues, signs, and descriptions to be used throughout the game. These messages will be permanent clues, such that secret treasure troves (dropped in a pit and covered by a boulder) as well as the secret to new artifact locations can be revealed or alluded to.
Every single guaranteed item in nethack (Such as the Castle wand) will be completely stripped out of the game. Candles will be a reward for beating each boss. Did I mention bosses? This means you can't count on the luckstone, you can't count on Izshak, there is no altar in minetown, there is no guaranteed toolship in minetown, there is no blindfold or amulet of lifesaving at vlads, no guaranteed scrolls of earth.
Conversely, there WILL be many guaranteed items in this game, just different ones than the regular nethack game. A guaranteed wand of polymorph sure is nice, so is a guaranteed invisibility source.
To make new bosses in nethack I will again use methods of over enchanting. Ever been hit by a Giant wielding a two handed sword +10? It hurts. A Centaur armed with +10 arrows (or several of them) hurts a lot too. This is not to mention that I will try to get them to higher levels so as to increase their HP as well.
The riders will make early appearances, and since they are not on the astral plane (which has its own rules) there will be ways of trapping or killing the riders permanently on a normal Nethack level.
Sokobon puzzles will all be re-done by digging new holes and adding new boulders. Some sokobon puzzles might not be solveable.
There will be lakes and underground rivers which will also serve as new sokoban puzzles (Making bridges by pushing boulders in water.
The game will try to hold off on having reflection or magic resistance sources untill deep in sokoban. The Castle will feature new treasures and Traps as well as a boss or bosses.
There will definitely be an enchanted forest maze (or two).
Medusa's island will be completely redone, or might not even exist, or might be moved to a much earlier level.
Sadly I won't be able to change the planes in wizard mode and they might seem easy compared to the rest of the dungeon.
This quest will be harder than a normal nethack game, because the guaranteed items have been replaced with stuff you can't look up on a wiki. However in some ways it might be far easier towards the endgame, when you're equipped with your +15 Mace and your +10 Ring of increased damage, with your wand of teleport with 50 charges.
If anyone has any suggestions for the game please let me know.
Janis Papanagnou
Jan 24, 2021, 9:46:01 AM1/24/21
to
On 24.01.2021 15:18, Chris Bowers wrote:
>
> This quest will be harder than a normal nethack game, because the
> guaranteed items have been replaced with stuff you can't look up on a
> wiki.
You can still look into the sources, I suppose.
>
> This quest will be harder than a normal nethack game, because the
> guaranteed items have been replaced with stuff you can't look up on a
> wiki.
> If anyone has any suggestions for the game please let me know.
doesn't make much sense [for me] to comment on additional details
in that given design frame. I seem to recall that plan mentioned
by you already quite some time ago; wasn't there feedback already?
Curious about the planned release date after having seen so much
text in this post.
Janis
Chris Bowers
Jan 24, 2021, 10:51:11 AM1/24/21
to
I actually already did this once, and got someone on the Dev team to unwiz it back in the early 2000s.
But I screwed up.
I programmed in more Quest nemesis enemies and this resulted in the drop of multiple bells of opening, which completely fouled the whole game and made it uncomplete-able, as it resulted in a trickery.
(I didn't know that would happen).
This meant I would have had to build the whole game up again from scratch and I was heartbroken.
Heartbroken for about 15 years until now when I'm going to try it again with better knowledge.
I don't remember which person on the Dev team it was, and I have no access to that old email acocunt.
So we begin anew.
Don't have a planned release date or a schedule. But I'll update this post as I upgrade the game.
First part of the game will be
1. First level with engravings explaining the lore and game, as well as a killer shocking interesting opening level (which will be unlocked later in the game, but is too dangerous to be opened now).
2. First few levels which have riddles of where to dig and how to decode the riddles to dig in certain spots to find equipment and treasure. (How to turn words into map coordinates)
3. Re-work of the gnomish mines removing the altar and tool shop and replacing it with something else.
4. Mines end revised, luckstone destroyed, with different reward at the end of minetown.
5. Underground river through mines end which must be somehow bypassed early game to get to minetown.
5. Reward at the foot of sokobon, and three new artifact treasures (not the bag or amulet) at the top of sokobon.
6. Reworking of sokoban puzzles by adding more pits and more boulders, destroying scrolls of earth so they are no longer guaranteed in this game.
7. New Boss at the end of Mines end (not as hard as a Minotaur, but something nasty).
8. New minor artifacts at the castle, WOW removed. New boss at the Castle.
9. Medusa's island changed somehow (haven't decided how). Shield of reflection and boots of levitation removed and replaced with other treasures (TBT.
That will be the first major overhaul. Second major overhaul will be
1. The Giant King's Fortress (featuring many thrones)
2. The red light district (multiple nymphs and succubi)
3. Enchanted Forest
4. Multiple big rooms.
6. The hanging gardens of babylon
7. The magic bridge (burned elbereth bridge between stairways, with crazy dangerous enemies that respect elbereth on either side).
After that I will majorly overhaul Gehennom. No idea about that yet.
But I screwed up.
I programmed in more Quest nemesis enemies and this resulted in the drop of multiple bells of opening, which completely fouled the whole game and made it uncomplete-able, as it resulted in a trickery.
(I didn't know that would happen).
This meant I would have had to build the whole game up again from scratch and I was heartbroken.
Heartbroken for about 15 years until now when I'm going to try it again with better knowledge.
I don't remember which person on the Dev team it was, and I have no access to that old email acocunt.
So we begin anew.
Don't have a planned release date or a schedule. But I'll update this post as I upgrade the game.
First part of the game will be
1. First level with engravings explaining the lore and game, as well as a killer shocking interesting opening level (which will be unlocked later in the game, but is too dangerous to be opened now).
2. First few levels which have riddles of where to dig and how to decode the riddles to dig in certain spots to find equipment and treasure. (How to turn words into map coordinates)
3. Re-work of the gnomish mines removing the altar and tool shop and replacing it with something else.
4. Mines end revised, luckstone destroyed, with different reward at the end of minetown.
5. Underground river through mines end which must be somehow bypassed early game to get to minetown.
5. Reward at the foot of sokobon, and three new artifact treasures (not the bag or amulet) at the top of sokobon.
6. Reworking of sokoban puzzles by adding more pits and more boulders, destroying scrolls of earth so they are no longer guaranteed in this game.
7. New Boss at the end of Mines end (not as hard as a Minotaur, but something nasty).
8. New minor artifacts at the castle, WOW removed. New boss at the Castle.
9. Medusa's island changed somehow (haven't decided how). Shield of reflection and boots of levitation removed and replaced with other treasures (TBT.
That will be the first major overhaul. Second major overhaul will be
1. The Giant King's Fortress (featuring many thrones)
2. The red light district (multiple nymphs and succubi)
3. Enchanted Forest
4. Multiple big rooms.
6. The hanging gardens of babylon
7. The magic bridge (burned elbereth bridge between stairways, with crazy dangerous enemies that respect elbereth on either side).
After that I will majorly overhaul Gehennom. No idea about that yet.
Chris Bowers
Jan 25, 2021, 6:16:50 PM1/25/21
to
Currently looking for Bosses!
Candidates must not be the covetous type that teleports to the upstairs (I am going to use those, just not for this.)
Current considerations are monsters with good wands (fire, cold, lightning). Alternately monsters with good armor sets that can wear them but aren't useful to the player (such as unenchanted dwarven mithral, which they will already have or might not use because this will be a priest spellcaster type).
Ideas so far:
Non Genocidal possible bosses:
Skeletons, Croesus (or multiple of him), High Priest (or priests), Titan (or Titans).
I was also considering giving them overenchanted weapons, if these are useless to the player. Since all artifacts will already have been wished for and destroyed, the player won't be able to get any skill in any area by unrestricting via sacrifices.
If the comparison can be made that a +10 sword (given to one of the bosses) is actually going to do less damage than a +7 mace on expert, then I think I can give that to the boss without fear it will be too powerful for the player. Likewise with armor.
Any other ideas?
Candidates must not be the covetous type that teleports to the upstairs (I am going to use those, just not for this.)
Current considerations are monsters with good wands (fire, cold, lightning). Alternately monsters with good armor sets that can wear them but aren't useful to the player (such as unenchanted dwarven mithral, which they will already have or might not use because this will be a priest spellcaster type).
Ideas so far:
Non Genocidal possible bosses:
Skeletons, Croesus (or multiple of him), High Priest (or priests), Titan (or Titans).
I was also considering giving them overenchanted weapons, if these are useless to the player. Since all artifacts will already have been wished for and destroyed, the player won't be able to get any skill in any area by unrestricting via sacrifices.
If the comparison can be made that a +10 sword (given to one of the bosses) is actually going to do less damage than a +7 mace on expert, then I think I can give that to the boss without fear it will be too powerful for the player. Likewise with armor.
Any other ideas?
Chris Bowers
Jan 26, 2021, 7:17:14 AM1/26/21
to
I have concluded the character design for the Priest. He is going to be Cadderly Bonaduce from the book series The Cleric Quintet.
Cadderly was a priest of Deneir, the god of research. To whit, his starting inventory and character design will be based on this model. Cadderly was an alchemist, a researcher, a geologist, and a mechanical inventor, however, he was very light on armor and combat. To that end playing him will be like playing some sort of a cross between archeologist/priest/wizard. Since he is being teleported from his home instantaneously, he will start knowing many spells, but not have any of his spellbooks. This is his opening inventory:
On self
7 Scrolls of Teleportation
1 Blessed Scroll of Identify
Blessed Rustproof Pickaxe +4
Oil Lamp
4 Potions of oil
4 Opals
4 Jet Stones
Pair of Lenses
Blessed Magic Flute (0:15)
Blessed Wand of Striking (0:30)
Blessed Wand of Slow Monster (0:30)
Wand of Enlightenment (0:10)
Stethoscope
Blessed Fireproof High Boots +1
Dwarvish Cloak +1
800 Gold
Intrinsic searching, sleep resistance
Spells Known: Detect Monsers, Detect Food, Detect Unseen, Healing, Cure Blindness, Cure Sickness, Knock
Identified Scrolls: Scroll of Fire, Scroll of Destroy Armor, Scroll of Amnesia, Scroll of Punishment, Scroll of Genocide
Identified Potions: Potion of Healing, Extra Healing, Full Healing, Speed, Gain Energy, Gain Level, Gain Ability
At the outset he is well prepared for the Protection Racket. Cadderly was from the upper class and collected gems. The gems obviously can be sold or used for throwing at unicorns for luck. His pickaxe serves as a hardy weapon and it's not bad (1d6+3 damage, and +3 to hit), but he can never gain combat skill it it, and so won't develop skill bonuses over time, so somewhere in the dungeon he will have to find a suitable weapon to advance. As well, the "unskilled" penalty is -4 so on balance with the damage he's just treading water with it
For difficult situations, he can use his overcharged wand of slow monster on a single monster, or his magic flute to sleep monsters if he's surrounded, or use one of his teleportation scrolls. He starts with his notable boots (from the book) and his cloak (Ivan and Pickel, his two best friends, were dwarves).
The stethescope and lenses also go along with his inventor/researcher persona, and he had much knowledge of magic books and scrolls in the series, so he starts knowing what several potions and scrolls are, which will aid the player in early alchemy attempts.
Cadderly was a priest of Deneir, the god of research. To whit, his starting inventory and character design will be based on this model. Cadderly was an alchemist, a researcher, a geologist, and a mechanical inventor, however, he was very light on armor and combat. To that end playing him will be like playing some sort of a cross between archeologist/priest/wizard. Since he is being teleported from his home instantaneously, he will start knowing many spells, but not have any of his spellbooks. This is his opening inventory:
On self
7 Scrolls of Teleportation
1 Blessed Scroll of Identify
Blessed Rustproof Pickaxe +4
Oil Lamp
4 Potions of oil
4 Opals
4 Jet Stones
Pair of Lenses
Blessed Magic Flute (0:15)
Blessed Wand of Striking (0:30)
Blessed Wand of Slow Monster (0:30)
Wand of Enlightenment (0:10)
Stethoscope
Blessed Fireproof High Boots +1
Dwarvish Cloak +1
800 Gold
Intrinsic searching, sleep resistance
Spells Known: Detect Monsers, Detect Food, Detect Unseen, Healing, Cure Blindness, Cure Sickness, Knock
Identified Scrolls: Scroll of Fire, Scroll of Destroy Armor, Scroll of Amnesia, Scroll of Punishment, Scroll of Genocide
Identified Potions: Potion of Healing, Extra Healing, Full Healing, Speed, Gain Energy, Gain Level, Gain Ability
At the outset he is well prepared for the Protection Racket. Cadderly was from the upper class and collected gems. The gems obviously can be sold or used for throwing at unicorns for luck. His pickaxe serves as a hardy weapon and it's not bad (1d6+3 damage, and +3 to hit), but he can never gain combat skill it it, and so won't develop skill bonuses over time, so somewhere in the dungeon he will have to find a suitable weapon to advance. As well, the "unskilled" penalty is -4 so on balance with the damage he's just treading water with it
For difficult situations, he can use his overcharged wand of slow monster on a single monster, or his magic flute to sleep monsters if he's surrounded, or use one of his teleportation scrolls. He starts with his notable boots (from the book) and his cloak (Ivan and Pickel, his two best friends, were dwarves).
The stethescope and lenses also go along with his inventor/researcher persona, and he had much knowledge of magic books and scrolls in the series, so he starts knowing what several potions and scrolls are, which will aid the player in early alchemy attempts.
Chris Bowers
Jan 27, 2021, 5:41:42 PM1/27/21
to
Wow, I've done a lot of work since this post. Pretty much non-stop.
1st and 3rd levels with starting plot, and how to complete riddles (for treasure rewards) has been done. Completed a new variant of mine town, added two underground river boulder puzzles, three riddles (if you answer them correctly they reveal the coordinates for treasure).
Three NPC's write clues to the player on various topics: Fizban, a wizard, Denier, a priest, and Silverleaf an elven pirate.
The player must use magic and boulders and tactics to cross various obstacles in the mines.
The Oracle level is now a water maze which you must solve successfully to avoid water monsters.
Original level called the Cavern of Secrets, in which clues from all over the game are given.
Many new artifacts have been placed, including a named wand of fire with 100 charges in it! I think I'll do the same for wand of frost and digging. Very handy!
Mine's end is completely redone, with the wizard using them as a breeding ground for his polytraps, soldiers and orcs. Oh no!
Can't wait for you guys to play it.
I need to do a new sokoban now, with new pits and puzzles and different treasures.
1st and 3rd levels with starting plot, and how to complete riddles (for treasure rewards) has been done. Completed a new variant of mine town, added two underground river boulder puzzles, three riddles (if you answer them correctly they reveal the coordinates for treasure).
Three NPC's write clues to the player on various topics: Fizban, a wizard, Denier, a priest, and Silverleaf an elven pirate.
The player must use magic and boulders and tactics to cross various obstacles in the mines.
The Oracle level is now a water maze which you must solve successfully to avoid water monsters.
Original level called the Cavern of Secrets, in which clues from all over the game are given.
Many new artifacts have been placed, including a named wand of fire with 100 charges in it! I think I'll do the same for wand of frost and digging. Very handy!
Mine's end is completely redone, with the wizard using them as a breeding ground for his polytraps, soldiers and orcs. Oh no!
Can't wait for you guys to play it.
I need to do a new sokoban now, with new pits and puzzles and different treasures.
Chris Bowers
Jan 28, 2021, 10:37:18 AM1/28/21
to
Sokoban and Ludios done. On to the quest!
Chris Bowers
Jan 28, 2021, 10:48:19 AM1/28/21
to
On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 10:37:18 AM UTC-5, Chris Bowers wrote:
> Sokoban and Ludios done. On to the quest!
Considering the rate at which this is going, I may be able to turn out a completely new Nethack variant in the space of 2 weeks or so! Lot faster than taking 2 years to learn C, and much faster than learning to program C, by far.
> Sokoban and Ludios done. On to the quest!
Chris Bowers
Jan 28, 2021, 5:31:16 PM1/28/21
to
I have completed the Quest. My, MY some really difficult levels with new bosses added, and I have added a "new" way to die, and to die irrevocably. I have also warned the player about it with clues (and quite explicitly). The treasure from the quest is quite powerful and allows a player to have abilities that would be nigh impossible to do in vanilla. In other words I have given players the ability to do a "Stupid Ascension Trick".
Another fun thing I found out about is the "magic fountain". I never quaffed from fountains, the possible gain seemed to low at low levels, and insignificant after the castle. However magic fountains provide a fairly reliable permanent stat boost, and thus I planted several in a guarded area as an interesting award: beat the boss and you get to drink from several magic fountains, significantly raising your stats. I thought it was a cool and interesting reward (and a reward that itself is not without risks!)
It's difficult to gauge the actual difficulty of clues and rumors and riddles I give out. Try on this one and see if you think it's too easy/too hard. I've rewritten this classic riddle to prevent "Googleing"
I have streams without water
Woods without trees
My Volcanos aren't hotter
Valleys with no breeze
Find me from the Upstair
North and then to East
You will be rewarded
With a tasty Feast
Another fun thing I found out about is the "magic fountain". I never quaffed from fountains, the possible gain seemed to low at low levels, and insignificant after the castle. However magic fountains provide a fairly reliable permanent stat boost, and thus I planted several in a guarded area as an interesting award: beat the boss and you get to drink from several magic fountains, significantly raising your stats. I thought it was a cool and interesting reward (and a reward that itself is not without risks!)
It's difficult to gauge the actual difficulty of clues and rumors and riddles I give out. Try on this one and see if you think it's too easy/too hard. I've rewritten this classic riddle to prevent "Googleing"
I have streams without water
Woods without trees
My Volcanos aren't hotter
Valleys with no breeze
Find me from the Upstair
North and then to East
You will be rewarded
With a tasty Feast
Chris Bowers
Jan 29, 2021, 9:37:13 AM1/29/21
to
Oops! I had almost completed the castle re-vamp, but there was an annoying troll blocking my way (ice troll). Killed him and then ate him so he wouldn't regen, but then got "You are full of hot air." Aaaaa poop.
I do not want the player to start with cold resistance!
I have save files of course but MAN. Oh well. Time to clear and redo the castle again. I'll listen to some NPR and This American Life while I do it.
I do not want the player to start with cold resistance!
I have save files of course but MAN. Oh well. Time to clear and redo the castle again. I'll listen to some NPR and This American Life while I do it.
Chris Bowers
Jan 29, 2021, 10:09:28 AM1/29/21
to
I've been thinking about the things that make Nethack easier.
The main things that make it easier are wishes, magic resistance, reflection and artifacts (as well as certain particular items like Gauntlets of Power). The luckstone also makes things easy as it makes it so you can advance your luck and freeze it high (with unicorn gem throwing).
If you start for instance with an altar on level 1 (happens all the time), or an altar early in the game, your advantage over a player who DOES NOT have an altar is incredibly extreme. With magic resistance and reflection, once you have those two (heck if you even just have one), it makes getting to the castle easy (and if you only have one, the wand at the castle provides guaranteed reflection and magic resistance).
Early artifact weapons really "get you over the hump" in terms of combat. The additional 1d6 to hit that most weapons provide plus around an additional 1d6 damage make it so that fighting most monsters is a trivial affair, you completely wreck them.
The grumpy thing about this is that sometimes a player will have access to reflection, magic resistance and an artifact weapon and some won't.
Compare these two games:
1. Chaotic Elven Rogue. No altar on quest, no altar on levels, cross aligned altar in gnometown, no wishes till castle (no magic lamps, no throne wishes), no reflection at sokoban, no reflection at medusa's, no magic resistance.
To
2. Chaotic Human Wizard: Starts with cloak of magic resistance, altar level 1, gets magicbane at xp level 3, gets reflection at sokoban, gets a lamp wish in minetown.
The difficulty between #1 and #2 is completely extreme. And it doesn't just depend on class. It can all depend on luck.
1. Chaotic Elven Rogue: Finds elven dagger and sword to name to force Stormbringer to be first sacrifice gift. Altar on DL3, gets stormbringer on xp lvl 3. Minetown lamp wish for +1 Gray Dragon Scale mail. Sokoban reveals an amulet of reflection. No source of levitation.
2. Chaotic Elven Rogue. No altar on quest, no altar on levels, cross aligned altar in gnometown, no wishes till castle (no magic lamps, no throne wishes), no reflection at sokoban, no reflection at medusa's, no magic resistance. Randomly finds a ring of levitation.
Again, the difficulty between these two games is absolutely extreme. Stormbringer ALONE can clear the castle and the valley of the dead EASILY. Even unenchanted. Since stormbringer not only does good damage but actually HEALS you, you could consider that "extra" damage in the balance of things. With reflection and magic resistance there is little to fear at the castle. You're protected from possible liches and everything else you can let fall through the trap door to gehennom to deal with later.
A more fair idea, and one which I developed in my game is to prevent the acquisition of artifacts until the quest or after the castle. I made my quest much much harder, so the easier course is the castle. I also don't allow a wand of wishing at the castle.
In summation I think that restricting reflection, magic resistance, and wishes to after the castle, and placing these boons in gehennom, makes it so that doing gehennom is actually worth something and actually has treasure there that you want to get: ways to advance your charachter.
If there are sources for the best things in Nethack (artifact weapons, reflection, magic resistance, wishes) before the castle or at the castle, then Gehnennom just becomes an entirely trivial exercise in silliness. Orcus isn't very scary when you know his wand of death won't work. Liches in gehennom can't do jack if you have magic resistance, and pretty much everything is trivial until you get to the planes. It's just a boring slog because your player gets overpowered at the castle because of wishes.
Therefore in my game there is no castle wand, there is no guaranteed reflection or magic resistance, and no source of guaranteed wishes at the castle or before. For greater powered items, you should have to go to gehennom, not simply let a bunch of soldiers fall down a pit or play a passtune to smash the monsters.
Getting an artifact weapon, reflection, magic resistance and wishes should take real work, be rare and be risky. If it isn't the game lacks something.
In my game I'm making I haven't exercised extreme control. I could have mapped every level, made sure that there are no altars, no thrones, no smoky potions, heck, no fountains to prevent early wishes, and checked every single wand generated so there wouldn't be a random wand of wishing, a random artifact on the ground, etc..
But look at the balance. On balance in my game the power items must be gleaned from gehennom, about 75% of the time. Could someone get lucky and get an early wish in my game? Sure. But it'd be rare. In all the nethack games I've played (thousands) I found a wand of wishing exactly twice. That kind of rare variance and boon is ok. It's fun. It's nice to have luck.
There's a difference between everyone being on the same page and then a few getting lucky, and half the players getting lucky and having an easy game, while half are stuck with extremely difficult games. I think that's sucky.
The main things that make it easier are wishes, magic resistance, reflection and artifacts (as well as certain particular items like Gauntlets of Power). The luckstone also makes things easy as it makes it so you can advance your luck and freeze it high (with unicorn gem throwing).
If you start for instance with an altar on level 1 (happens all the time), or an altar early in the game, your advantage over a player who DOES NOT have an altar is incredibly extreme. With magic resistance and reflection, once you have those two (heck if you even just have one), it makes getting to the castle easy (and if you only have one, the wand at the castle provides guaranteed reflection and magic resistance).
Early artifact weapons really "get you over the hump" in terms of combat. The additional 1d6 to hit that most weapons provide plus around an additional 1d6 damage make it so that fighting most monsters is a trivial affair, you completely wreck them.
The grumpy thing about this is that sometimes a player will have access to reflection, magic resistance and an artifact weapon and some won't.
Compare these two games:
1. Chaotic Elven Rogue. No altar on quest, no altar on levels, cross aligned altar in gnometown, no wishes till castle (no magic lamps, no throne wishes), no reflection at sokoban, no reflection at medusa's, no magic resistance.
To
2. Chaotic Human Wizard: Starts with cloak of magic resistance, altar level 1, gets magicbane at xp level 3, gets reflection at sokoban, gets a lamp wish in minetown.
The difficulty between #1 and #2 is completely extreme. And it doesn't just depend on class. It can all depend on luck.
1. Chaotic Elven Rogue: Finds elven dagger and sword to name to force Stormbringer to be first sacrifice gift. Altar on DL3, gets stormbringer on xp lvl 3. Minetown lamp wish for +1 Gray Dragon Scale mail. Sokoban reveals an amulet of reflection. No source of levitation.
2. Chaotic Elven Rogue. No altar on quest, no altar on levels, cross aligned altar in gnometown, no wishes till castle (no magic lamps, no throne wishes), no reflection at sokoban, no reflection at medusa's, no magic resistance. Randomly finds a ring of levitation.
Again, the difficulty between these two games is absolutely extreme. Stormbringer ALONE can clear the castle and the valley of the dead EASILY. Even unenchanted. Since stormbringer not only does good damage but actually HEALS you, you could consider that "extra" damage in the balance of things. With reflection and magic resistance there is little to fear at the castle. You're protected from possible liches and everything else you can let fall through the trap door to gehennom to deal with later.
A more fair idea, and one which I developed in my game is to prevent the acquisition of artifacts until the quest or after the castle. I made my quest much much harder, so the easier course is the castle. I also don't allow a wand of wishing at the castle.
In summation I think that restricting reflection, magic resistance, and wishes to after the castle, and placing these boons in gehennom, makes it so that doing gehennom is actually worth something and actually has treasure there that you want to get: ways to advance your charachter.
If there are sources for the best things in Nethack (artifact weapons, reflection, magic resistance, wishes) before the castle or at the castle, then Gehnennom just becomes an entirely trivial exercise in silliness. Orcus isn't very scary when you know his wand of death won't work. Liches in gehennom can't do jack if you have magic resistance, and pretty much everything is trivial until you get to the planes. It's just a boring slog because your player gets overpowered at the castle because of wishes.
Therefore in my game there is no castle wand, there is no guaranteed reflection or magic resistance, and no source of guaranteed wishes at the castle or before. For greater powered items, you should have to go to gehennom, not simply let a bunch of soldiers fall down a pit or play a passtune to smash the monsters.
Getting an artifact weapon, reflection, magic resistance and wishes should take real work, be rare and be risky. If it isn't the game lacks something.
In my game I'm making I haven't exercised extreme control. I could have mapped every level, made sure that there are no altars, no thrones, no smoky potions, heck, no fountains to prevent early wishes, and checked every single wand generated so there wouldn't be a random wand of wishing, a random artifact on the ground, etc..
But look at the balance. On balance in my game the power items must be gleaned from gehennom, about 75% of the time. Could someone get lucky and get an early wish in my game? Sure. But it'd be rare. In all the nethack games I've played (thousands) I found a wand of wishing exactly twice. That kind of rare variance and boon is ok. It's fun. It's nice to have luck.
There's a difference between everyone being on the same page and then a few getting lucky, and half the players getting lucky and having an easy game, while half are stuck with extremely difficult games. I think that's sucky.
Chris Bowers
Jan 29, 2021, 2:42:25 PM1/29/21
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Ugh. Messed up a save file by not saving correctly. I can't even save files correctly and everyone thinks I should learn to program C. Back to re-do the castle and town rumors again. O well!
Chris Bowers
Jan 31, 2021, 9:23:46 PM1/31/21
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On Friday, January 29, 2021 at 2:42:25 PM UTC-5, Chris Bowers wrote:
> Ugh. Messed up a save file by not saving correctly. I can't even save files correctly and everyone thinks I should learn to program C. Back to re-do the castle and town rumors again. O well!
So I did a playthrough of the first half of the game, and there were so many errors! Especially with sokoban. I'd make the new puzzles in my head and upon playthrough realized they were unsolvable.
> Ugh. Messed up a save file by not saving correctly. I can't even save files correctly and everyone thinks I should learn to program C. Back to re-do the castle and town rumors again. O well!
My Castle became too disorderly. I was going to have 9 Titans that I angered but this proved to difficult. I reduced it to just two titans!
On to redo more sokoban levels!
Chris Bowers
Feb 4, 2021, 12:06:30 PM2/4/21
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All of the standard levels are redone. Sokoban, Oracle, Medusa (now a swamp instead of an island with marked areas that correspond to clues), the Castle, Vlad's (which is now the "Tower of Disease". And so on.
Vlad, hearing that the player was very powerful has absconded leaving another boss in his stead!
Orcus, along with his wand of death, has been removed. Orcus town is now wizardtown. It's a 100% peaceful town with peaceful mages in it. The town has many amenities that are helpful to the player including a magic marker shop, a plumbing shop (tons of sinks to kick for rings or to use to identify rings), an armor shop with dragon scale suits in it, a tshirt shop and a pet shop (blessed figurines). These treasures, I think are an actual reward in Gehennom, which gives the place more purpose. Who doesn't want to visit a magic marker shop, no matter how powerful you are?
Because of the situation I've set up, the player cannot acquire an artifact weapon before Gehenom at all. I will place artifact-equivalent weapons in the first 1/3, slightly better than artifact weapons in the second 1/3,a and finally a super powered weapon (Rustproof Mace +20) on the last level guarded by three demogorgons.
I've also restricted the existence of reflection and magic resistance, such that these two items must be gotten in Gehennom, again, giving the place more purpose.
The next and most difficult task is to make new levels of gehennom, such that the levels themselves are fun and interesting, not just more maze after maze.
Vlad, hearing that the player was very powerful has absconded leaving another boss in his stead!
Orcus, along with his wand of death, has been removed. Orcus town is now wizardtown. It's a 100% peaceful town with peaceful mages in it. The town has many amenities that are helpful to the player including a magic marker shop, a plumbing shop (tons of sinks to kick for rings or to use to identify rings), an armor shop with dragon scale suits in it, a tshirt shop and a pet shop (blessed figurines). These treasures, I think are an actual reward in Gehennom, which gives the place more purpose. Who doesn't want to visit a magic marker shop, no matter how powerful you are?
Because of the situation I've set up, the player cannot acquire an artifact weapon before Gehenom at all. I will place artifact-equivalent weapons in the first 1/3, slightly better than artifact weapons in the second 1/3,a and finally a super powered weapon (Rustproof Mace +20) on the last level guarded by three demogorgons.
I've also restricted the existence of reflection and magic resistance, such that these two items must be gotten in Gehennom, again, giving the place more purpose.
The next and most difficult task is to make new levels of gehennom, such that the levels themselves are fun and interesting, not just more maze after maze.
Chris Bowers
Feb 7, 2021, 5:07:37 PM2/7/21
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I've only added three levels to gehennom at this point: an "elbereth" maze/bridge surrounded by demons where the staircase can't be found without completing the maze (as the downstairs is covered by an object), and the enchanted forest, which is also a sort of town with riddles, clues and information about where buried artifacts are located, along with "shops" which are really a puzzle of how to get to the "shop's" inventory. The "new town" is that Orcus town has been changed to a friendly town.
Adding a level to gehennom is a heck of a lot of work, if you plan on digging out all walls and creating new walls.
The levels ARE quite good though and have excellent design, just because I've spent a lot of time on them.
I also like that I've found methods of obscuring the whole "magic mapping/teleport" strategy that are commonly used with the boring maze levels. As well, all of the really good artifacts and items are hidden in gehennom, meaning that you really want them in order to beat the game. Considering you have to face down three demogorgons, and that I've not allowed for reflection or magic resistance until gehennom, this really makes gehnennom the focus of the game, rather than getting to the castle.
One funny thing was that I had a wand of teleportation with 100 charges to clear away monsters while making levels. A nymph stole it from me! Everytime I teleported near her, she just zapped the wand of teleport. I guess I'm going to chase her 97 more times? I can't decide if this is a bug or a feature, though it certainly is funny!
Adding a level to gehennom is a heck of a lot of work, if you plan on digging out all walls and creating new walls.
The levels ARE quite good though and have excellent design, just because I've spent a lot of time on them.
I also like that I've found methods of obscuring the whole "magic mapping/teleport" strategy that are commonly used with the boring maze levels. As well, all of the really good artifacts and items are hidden in gehennom, meaning that you really want them in order to beat the game. Considering you have to face down three demogorgons, and that I've not allowed for reflection or magic resistance until gehennom, this really makes gehnennom the focus of the game, rather than getting to the castle.
One funny thing was that I had a wand of teleportation with 100 charges to clear away monsters while making levels. A nymph stole it from me! Everytime I teleported near her, she just zapped the wand of teleport. I guess I'm going to chase her 97 more times? I can't decide if this is a bug or a feature, though it certainly is funny!
Chris Bowers
Feb 7, 2021, 7:51:12 PM2/7/21
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Now there are but 12 levels which are maze levels and have no other feature. In other words there are Demon levels (such as Asmodeus' lair) and there are, for instance, false wizard towers, the bottom level, and the maze levels with the central chamber (which you proceed through to get the book of the dead).
I'm not going to mess with those.
To re-do a level takes me about 2 hours (two episodes of National Public Radio programming, lol), so if I re did all 12 levels it would be 24 total hours to prepare. I don't think I'm going to redo every one, so that would mean redoing about one every three levels to have a uniquely difficult level. I could probabbly knock out a lava level in maybe 30 mins. So likely I'll do maze, lava, or some combination of that.
Interestingly, I have learned how to make certain dungeon features invisible to the player, and how to make stairways a one way trip! Don't know if I will use either feature but man are they devious.
I'm not going to mess with those.
To re-do a level takes me about 2 hours (two episodes of National Public Radio programming, lol), so if I re did all 12 levels it would be 24 total hours to prepare. I don't think I'm going to redo every one, so that would mean redoing about one every three levels to have a uniquely difficult level. I could probabbly knock out a lava level in maybe 30 mins. So likely I'll do maze, lava, or some combination of that.
Interestingly, I have learned how to make certain dungeon features invisible to the player, and how to make stairways a one way trip! Don't know if I will use either feature but man are they devious.
Chris Bowers
Feb 21, 2021, 6:47:17 PM2/21/21
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My crowning glory of a nethack puzzle has been completed it's a heck of a difficult level. I think though that I'm going to drop more clues and puzzles.
I think I'm going to make a few more levels, too, but the whole work is pretty much done.
Any suggestions on where to release it?
I think I'm going to make a few more levels, too, but the whole work is pretty much done.
Any suggestions on where to release it?
Adam Weaver
Feb 22, 2021, 10:33:56 PM2/22/21
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On 22 Feb 2021 at 7:47:15 am AWST, "Chris Bowers" <magicby...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> My crowning glory of a nethack puzzle has been completed
[snip]
>
> Any suggestions on where to release it?
Github is probably the popular choice, for simplicity.
wrote:
> My crowning glory of a nethack puzzle has been completed
>
> Any suggestions on where to release it?
Chris Bowers
Mar 11, 2021, 4:04:45 PM3/11/21
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