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Hints for Ascending 3.6.0
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magicby...@yahoo.com
Dec 16, 2015, 10:47:20 PM12/16/15
to
I thought I would put a few hints here because 3.6.0 seems much harder than previous versions.
1. Armor Class is more important in this game. First of all alchemy is harder, so you will use up more converter potions. You need to place a premium on armor class for that reason (you can still get it as high as in previous versions) but you can say goodbye to easily having 500 hp. You also, because of lower hit points, will need more potions of full healing on hand.
2. Kit selection is more limited. You need to think hard about how to get magic resistance, magic cancellation 3 and reflection. Some people at high levels of nethack ability play without one of these. I don't recommend it. Tougher demons! Because of the MC nerf (The only cloak with MC3 is Cloak of Protection), a kit will look like this:
Fighter Type:
A. GDSM, Cloak of Protecion, Shield of Reflection, Amulet of Lifesaving.
Spellcasting type:
B Artifact granting magic resistance, SDSM Cloak of Protection, Amulet of Lifesaving.
If you are a lawful type you could also go with the spellcasting kit, as lawfuls have many magic resistance artifacts, and neutrals have a few as well.
If you're a chaotic spellcaster, I don't know what to tell you. Wish for magicbane?
You could possibly ascend with a substandard kit but I don't recommend it.
3. Oilskin bag is a nice option in the new game because plane of water will flood your bag if you are not careful and levitation will not prevent it. You can also put your oilskin bag inside your bag of holding.
4. Since the Astral plane is harder (I'm not sure how, but it is WAY harder), a neutral character has a distinct advantage on astral, because they can go to the first altar of the weakest rider (which appears to me to be Famine) and use helm of opposite alignment repeatedly to get a match between your alignment and altar. Remember that you must uncurse the helm each time but 5 potions of holy water and a few blessed scrolls of remove curse should do the trick. I did not do this, but I was lucky to get the altar on the first try. I don't know if I would have survived to other altars. If you are neutral, the helm is a really important wish object and could be the difference between ascending and getting dead.
5. Anytime you go below vlads you could be attacked by the wizard. If you are attacked by the wizard, he will have the book of the dead which will trigger cursing and monsters appearing around you. THis means you might want to consider every level below Vlads as a possible ascension run. Scrolls of magic mapping are thus super valuable, and crystal balls can find the downstairs. you don't want to wander around searching about on the final 4-10 levels. It is too much time that you can be attacked by the wizard, and the malignant aura will drain your holy water resources. With a single magic marker charged with 50 charges you can get enough scrolls of magic mapping for below vlads and to the bottom. It is worth it.
There are new "tunnel levels" that are even harder to map than the maze levels. Again, magic mapping.
It's so inconvenient I would even consider a wish for spellbook of magic mapping if I were a spell caster. Or you can just wish for a magic marker, which (if it comes with more than 50 charges) is a win.
6. I had my stash raided THREE TIMES. Elbereth is not permanent and apparently scroll of scare monster doesn't work on certain monsters. Consider a boulder fort or a hole you dig and push a boulder into. (you can dig it out later).
7. Demons and the Riders are much harder. Demonbane, silver saber, greyswandir and other weapons that harm demons without penalty or with bonus (I used excalibur) are even more at a premium.
8. Unicorn horn seems even more critical in this game. Jubilex is harder, Pestillence is harder, and the fire plane continually blinds you with noxious gas! As well, with Magic Cancellation being harder to get, you will have more afflictions. Because it's harder to get MC 3 poison is a more serious issue. Carry two blessed ones at all time. You may even have to kill a coaligned unicorn to get one. I had to do that. I will now attack any unicorn I see in 3.6.0 on sight. Apologize later to your god..
1. Armor Class is more important in this game. First of all alchemy is harder, so you will use up more converter potions. You need to place a premium on armor class for that reason (you can still get it as high as in previous versions) but you can say goodbye to easily having 500 hp. You also, because of lower hit points, will need more potions of full healing on hand.
2. Kit selection is more limited. You need to think hard about how to get magic resistance, magic cancellation 3 and reflection. Some people at high levels of nethack ability play without one of these. I don't recommend it. Tougher demons! Because of the MC nerf (The only cloak with MC3 is Cloak of Protection), a kit will look like this:
Fighter Type:
A. GDSM, Cloak of Protecion, Shield of Reflection, Amulet of Lifesaving.
Spellcasting type:
B Artifact granting magic resistance, SDSM Cloak of Protection, Amulet of Lifesaving.
If you are a lawful type you could also go with the spellcasting kit, as lawfuls have many magic resistance artifacts, and neutrals have a few as well.
If you're a chaotic spellcaster, I don't know what to tell you. Wish for magicbane?
You could possibly ascend with a substandard kit but I don't recommend it.
3. Oilskin bag is a nice option in the new game because plane of water will flood your bag if you are not careful and levitation will not prevent it. You can also put your oilskin bag inside your bag of holding.
4. Since the Astral plane is harder (I'm not sure how, but it is WAY harder), a neutral character has a distinct advantage on astral, because they can go to the first altar of the weakest rider (which appears to me to be Famine) and use helm of opposite alignment repeatedly to get a match between your alignment and altar. Remember that you must uncurse the helm each time but 5 potions of holy water and a few blessed scrolls of remove curse should do the trick. I did not do this, but I was lucky to get the altar on the first try. I don't know if I would have survived to other altars. If you are neutral, the helm is a really important wish object and could be the difference between ascending and getting dead.
5. Anytime you go below vlads you could be attacked by the wizard. If you are attacked by the wizard, he will have the book of the dead which will trigger cursing and monsters appearing around you. THis means you might want to consider every level below Vlads as a possible ascension run. Scrolls of magic mapping are thus super valuable, and crystal balls can find the downstairs. you don't want to wander around searching about on the final 4-10 levels. It is too much time that you can be attacked by the wizard, and the malignant aura will drain your holy water resources. With a single magic marker charged with 50 charges you can get enough scrolls of magic mapping for below vlads and to the bottom. It is worth it.
There are new "tunnel levels" that are even harder to map than the maze levels. Again, magic mapping.
It's so inconvenient I would even consider a wish for spellbook of magic mapping if I were a spell caster. Or you can just wish for a magic marker, which (if it comes with more than 50 charges) is a win.
6. I had my stash raided THREE TIMES. Elbereth is not permanent and apparently scroll of scare monster doesn't work on certain monsters. Consider a boulder fort or a hole you dig and push a boulder into. (you can dig it out later).
7. Demons and the Riders are much harder. Demonbane, silver saber, greyswandir and other weapons that harm demons without penalty or with bonus (I used excalibur) are even more at a premium.
8. Unicorn horn seems even more critical in this game. Jubilex is harder, Pestillence is harder, and the fire plane continually blinds you with noxious gas! As well, with Magic Cancellation being harder to get, you will have more afflictions. Because it's harder to get MC 3 poison is a more serious issue. Carry two blessed ones at all time. You may even have to kill a coaligned unicorn to get one. I had to do that. I will now attack any unicorn I see in 3.6.0 on sight. Apologize later to your god..
Ray Chason
Dec 20, 2015, 1:41:12 AM12/20/15
to
magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>I thought I would put a few hints here because 3.6.0 seems much harder than=
> previous versions.
Ascend? Right now I'd just be happy to finish Sokoban and make it back out to
the main dungeon. My last game ended at the hands of a freaking air elemental
and the one before fell to a chameleon that turned into a salamander. And with
the E-word next to useless anymore. Sheesh, why not just pop D*m*g*rg*n out at
random times?
>
>I thought I would put a few hints here because 3.6.0 seems much harder than=
> previous versions.
Ascend? Right now I'd just be happy to finish Sokoban and make it back out to
the main dungeon. My last game ended at the hands of a freaking air elemental
and the one before fell to a chameleon that turned into a salamander. And with
the E-word next to useless anymore. Sheesh, why not just pop D*m*g*rg*n out at
random times?
Janis Papanagnou
Dec 20, 2015, 10:35:22 AM12/20/15
to
On 20.12.2015 07:40, Ray Chason wrote:
>
> Ascend? Right now I'd just be happy to finish Sokoban and make it back out to
> the main dungeon. My last game ended at the hands of a freaking air elemental
> and the one before fell to a chameleon that turned into a salamander. And with
> the E-word next to useless anymore. [...]
>
> Ascend? Right now I'd just be happy to finish Sokoban and make it back out to
> the main dungeon. My last game ended at the hands of a freaking air elemental
> and the one before fell to a chameleon that turned into a salamander. And with
Despite this guy who repeatedly pointed out that you can make it Elbereth-less
I wonder what that means in practical situations for them. The typical deaths;
if those fast and poisonous soldier ants are appearing, or if your escape path
is blocked by another monster, or if you're just in a dead-end corridor and
(without digging or blidfold) a floating eye is blocking your way out. Or the
situations you mention above. Maybe it's a simple explanation like that other
guy's who recently posted that Nethack just wants you dead; now, in NH-3.6.0,
even more than before.
Janis
Pat Rankin
Dec 20, 2015, 10:46:13 PM12/20/15
to
On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 10:41:12 PM UTC-8, Ray Chason wrote:
> Ascend? Right now I'd just be happy to finish Sokoban and make it back out to
> the main dungeon. [...]
> Ascend? Right now I'd just be happy to finish Sokoban and make it back out to
Upper Sokoban is harder, but is still optional.
The program used to calculate level depth in Sokoban
as N levels below the [theoretical] surface. So moving
up within that branch unintentionally resulted in easier
monsters because the depth was becoming shallower as
you went further in. Now the difficulty-depth is based
on entry depth plus number of levels in, so the top of
Sokoban is 8 levels deeper than it used to be as far as
monster creation is concerned.
David Damerell
Jan 5, 2016, 11:07:34 AM1/5/16
to
Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com>:
>Despite this guy who repeatedly pointed out that you can make it Elbereth-less
>I wonder what that means in practical situations for them. The typical deaths;
>if those fast and poisonous soldier ants are appearing, or if your escape path
>is blocked by another monster, or if you're just in a dead-end corridor and
>(without digging or blidfold) a floating eye is blocking your way out.
Certainly in the last case, I aim to have a collection of throwing weapons
>Despite this guy who repeatedly pointed out that you can make it Elbereth-less
>I wonder what that means in practical situations for them. The typical deaths;
>if those fast and poisonous soldier ants are appearing, or if your escape path
>is blocked by another monster, or if you're just in a dead-end corridor and
>(without digging or blidfold) a floating eye is blocking your way out.
as soon as I can (& of course, if the corridor is truly dead-end, I might
risk having to pray for food but I don't risk my life even if I do resort
to poking it with a stick).
The other cases are subtler, but partly down to awareness of the terrain,
where one might be able to get trapped - and being reluctant to do dark
Mines levels without a light source. Also, I try to always keep a pet with
me - if I'm caught between two fires (escape path blocked) I hope to be
able to displace the pet and use it as a meatshield against the nastier
beasties.
This sort of thing doesn't always work but of course it's about defence in
depth.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Mania, January.
Tomorrow will be First Aponoia, January.
Janis Papanagnou
Jan 5, 2016, 12:00:01 PM1/5/16
to
On 05.01.2016 17:07, David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com>:
>> Despite this guy who repeatedly pointed out that you can make it Elbereth-less
>> I wonder what that means in practical situations for them. The typical deaths;
>> if those fast and poisonous soldier ants are appearing, or if your escape path
>> is blocked by another monster, or if you're just in a dead-end corridor and
>> (without digging or blidfold) a floating eye is blocking your way out.
>
> Certainly in the last case, I aim to have a collection of throwing weapons
> as soon as I can (& of course, if the corridor is truly dead-end, I might
> risk having to pray for food but I don't risk my life even if I do resort
> to poking it with a stick).
You may survive, but the poking with a stick won't work; the paralysis lasts
> Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com>:
>> Despite this guy who repeatedly pointed out that you can make it Elbereth-less
>> I wonder what that means in practical situations for them. The typical deaths;
>> if those fast and poisonous soldier ants are appearing, or if your escape path
>> is blocked by another monster, or if you're just in a dead-end corridor and
>> (without digging or blidfold) a floating eye is blocking your way out.
>
> Certainly in the last case, I aim to have a collection of throwing weapons
> as soon as I can (& of course, if the corridor is truly dead-end, I might
> risk having to pray for food but I don't risk my life even if I do resort
> to poking it with a stick).
far too long, and if a few monster HPs had been taken from the eye with the
stick attack it will have regenerated them until you are conscious again.
Yes, it's helpful to have any projectiles. In the early game I often collect
every projectile I can find (even restricted bolts without crossbow) to have
some ranged attack.
Janis
ManaUser
Jan 5, 2016, 12:21:27 PM1/5/16
to
On 1/5/2016 8:59 AM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> You may survive, but the poking with a stick won't work; the paralysis lasts
> far too long, and if a few monster HPs had been taken from the eye with the
> stick attack it will have regenerated them until you are conscious again.
I don't see how this scenario has much to do with the recent changes,
> You may survive, but the poking with a stick won't work; the paralysis lasts
> far too long, and if a few monster HPs had been taken from the eye with the
> stick attack it will have regenerated them until you are conscious again.
Elbereth still works perfectly well in this kind of situation. And how
often do you get cornered by a floating eye, anyway? It's a pretty
unusual event given how slow they are.
David Damerell
Jan 5, 2016, 12:45:03 PM1/5/16
to
Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com>:
>You may survive, but the poking with a stick won't work; the paralysis lasts
>far too long, and if a few monster HPs had been taken from the eye with the
>stick attack it will have regenerated them until you are conscious again.
That depends how big my stick is; floating eyes have only 2HD [1] so if I
>You may survive, but the poking with a stick won't work; the paralysis lasts
>far too long, and if a few monster HPs had been taken from the eye with the
>stick attack it will have regenerated them until you are conscious again.
have a reasonable weapon there is at least a chance I can one-shot the eye.
And... no. Monsters regenerate 1 HP every 20 turns, but:
nomul((ACURR(A_WIS) > 12 || rn2(4)) ? -tmp : -127);
-tmp would be 3d70 [1]. Hence if you keep plugging away you will
eventually be able to attack the eye twice in quick succession before it
has regenerated away all the damage. Sure, if you have a really terrible
melee attack, you're in trouble, but you can get into much worse trouble
because of that...
[1] Typically, but most of the ways to increase a monster's starting level
will apply later in the game when you might be expected to have tools to
deal with floating eyes.
Janis Papanagnou
Jan 5, 2016, 2:31:55 PM1/5/16
to
On 05.01.2016 18:21, ManaUser wrote:
>
> I don't see how this scenario has much to do with the recent changes, Elbereth
> still works perfectly well in this kind of situation.
Frankly, I didn't know about how much the engravings are nerved in NH-360.
>
> I don't see how this scenario has much to do with the recent changes, Elbereth
> still works perfectly well in this kind of situation.
But, thinking about it, I assume you are right.
> And how often do you get cornered by a floating eye, anyway?
where I had no means to kill it (no blindfold or missiles), and in some of
those cases (in my earlier NH times) I tried to hit it repeatedly as David
suggested, but (as far as memory serves) those situation lead to deaths,
at least I don't recall to have ever been able to kill a floating eye in
melee without protection. At some point in my NH life I remembered about
the possibility of an engraving, and since then I've done it if necessary.
> It's a pretty unusual event given how slow they are.
death. In addition one should also consider the situations where you have to
flee (from, say, soldier ants) and a path (one end of a corridor) is blocked
that way. Since Elbereth still works, as you point out, there's no issue.
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
Jan 5, 2016, 2:39:42 PM1/5/16
to
On 05.01.2016 18:44, David Damerell wrote:
>
> Sure, if you have a really terrible
> melee attack, you're in trouble, but you can get into much worse trouble
> because of that...
Yes, often it's a combination of bad effects that will be the hero's demise.
>
> Sure, if you have a really terrible
> melee attack, you're in trouble, but you can get into much worse trouble
> because of that...
Like getting hungry while paralyzed, and getting attacked; you will often
have just one free prayer, and the second factor kills you.
Janis
ManaUser
Jan 5, 2016, 3:08:50 PM1/5/16
to
On 1/5/2016 11:31 AM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 05.01.2016 18:21, ManaUser wrote:
>>
>> I don't see how this scenario has much to do with the recent changes, Elbereth
>> still works perfectly well in this kind of situation.
>
> Frankly, I didn't know about how much the engravings are nerved in NH-360.
> But, thinking about it, I assume you are right.
Other than the restrictions on where you can use it (not in hell or
> On 05.01.2016 18:21, ManaUser wrote:
>>
>> I don't see how this scenario has much to do with the recent changes, Elbereth
>> still works perfectly well in this kind of situation.
>
> Frankly, I didn't know about how much the engravings are nerved in NH-360.
> But, thinking about it, I assume you are right.
planes) the main nerfs are that it only when you're standing on it
yourself (you can't just drop a piece of junk on top for a barrier) and
it can erode when it protects you. So with something like soldier ants,
the situation will definitely be a little more tense than before (but
it's still a valuable tool). For a floating eye which can't actually
hurt you none of the nerfs come into play at all.
Janis Papanagnou
Jan 5, 2016, 4:36:39 PM1/5/16
to
On 05.01.2016 21:08, ManaUser wrote:
>
> Other than the restrictions on where you can use it (not in hell or planes)
Interesting to know. Though I wonder why there's a restriction for the Planes;
>
> Other than the restrictions on where you can use it (not in hell or planes)
the only monster (unless genocided) that's worth to repel at that stage are
the purple L on Astral (since all the A and @ don't respect that engraving
anyway), and I suppose (but haven't tried) you cannot engrave on Air or Water.
> the main nerfs are that it only when you're standing on it yourself (you can't
> just drop a piece of junk on top for a barrier) and it can erode when it
> protects you. So with something like soldier ants, the situation will
> definitely be a little more tense than before (but it's still a valuable
engraving succeeds; now with the effect that you also cannot spam sequences
of engravings (but only one) it's definitely harder, unnecessary harder; the
soldier ants are still the no.1 monster that kills folks. (Myself I have on
NAO 12 soldier ant deaths, by far my top monster death reason, followed then
closely by 10 death rays, LOL.)
> tool). For a floating eye which can't actually hurt you none of the nerfs come
> into play at all.
have a wand of fire or lightning in the very early game, but hitting an eye
while standing on an E-square at least gave you the necessary safety (modulo
early hostile elves) to not be attacked while recovering from the paralysis.
(But for the floating eyes you clearly want missiles or a blindfold anyway.)
Janis
ManaUser
Jan 6, 2016, 1:14:08 AM1/6/16
to
On 1/5/2016 1:36 PM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> And a burnt Elbereth isn't permanent any more. It's not likely that you'll
> have a wand of fire or lightning in the very early game, but hitting an eye
> while standing on an E-square at least gave you the necessary safety (modulo
> early hostile elves) to not be attacked while recovering from the paralysis.
> (But for the floating eyes you clearly want missiles or a blindfold anyway.)
Well OK, if you're gonna do it that way, yes. I figured the plan would
> And a burnt Elbereth isn't permanent any more. It's not likely that you'll
> have a wand of fire or lightning in the very early game, but hitting an eye
> while standing on an E-square at least gave you the necessary safety (modulo
> early hostile elves) to not be attacked while recovering from the paralysis.
> (But for the floating eyes you clearly want missiles or a blindfold anyway.)
just be write E Word in the dust and slowly chase the eye back the way
it came.
Janis Papanagnou
Jan 6, 2016, 6:53:24 AM1/6/16
to
On 06.01.2016 07:14, ManaUser wrote:
> On 1/5/2016 1:36 PM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>> And a burnt Elbereth isn't permanent any more. It's not likely that you'll
>> have a wand of fire or lightning in the very early game, but hitting an eye
>> while standing on an E-square at least gave you the necessary safety (modulo
>> early hostile elves) to not be attacked while recovering from the paralysis.
>> (But for the floating eyes you clearly want missiles or a blindfold anyway.)
>
> Well OK, if you're gonna do it that way, yes.
I just wanted to point out some more existing differences (less options) as
> On 1/5/2016 1:36 PM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>> And a burnt Elbereth isn't permanent any more. It's not likely that you'll
>> have a wand of fire or lightning in the very early game, but hitting an eye
>> while standing on an E-square at least gave you the necessary safety (modulo
>> early hostile elves) to not be attacked while recovering from the paralysis.
>> (But for the floating eyes you clearly want missiles or a blindfold anyway.)
>
> Well OK, if you're gonna do it that way, yes.
result of the 3.6.0 changes WRT Elbereth.
> I figured the plan would just be
> write E Word in the dust and slowly chase the eye back the way it came.
Janis
jim in austin
Jan 6, 2016, 11:46:44 AM1/6/16
to
that scrolls of scare monster have been strengthened in 3.6.0:
"Since NetHack 3.6.0, scrolls of scare monster also scare peaceful
monsters, blind monsters, @ and minotaurs, and also work in Gehennom
and the End Game,and when you are not on the space. They do not scare
lawful minions, A, the Riders or the Wizard of Yendor."
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Scroll_of_scare_monster
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