(rgrn) Moral Dillemna
Drake8
spam.
I have a small moral dillemna. Drake-B just cleaned out the
castle, has AC -26, lvl 17, one wish left in the wand. I've only
gotten this far once before, about a year ago, with a valkyrie who
met her end at Jubilex.
Here's the issue. I really want this game to be legitimate
(although I've done just about every abuse: polypoling, wishing,
genociding, wraith luring, nurse dancing, troll dancing {lots on the B
quest}). I think that I've got about a 1/3 chance of ascension. I was
wondering, though, if it would be legit to copy the save file for two
reasons:
1) My hard drive is really old and bits and bytes tend to go bad.
This has destroyed a number of other small files. I really wouldn't
want to lose my game to Hard Drvie failure.
2) If I do die in Gehennhom, which is likely, I want to use this
game as a learning tool. i.e., restart from the backup save, enter
explore mode, and try, try again.
So, morality experts: What's up?
-Drake
Get a simple address for your anime site at www.animeworld.org. Free!
Read reviews, cast lists, essays, etc. at www.animeworld.com.
johnny carroll norris
: Attached tag to differentiate myself from The Enemy's sputum-like
: spam.
I think maybe he's gone. Apparently the admin at altopia.net FINALLY asked
him to reduce the number of groups he crossposts to. I've heard rumors that
he has started using deja-news, but I doubt that they'll put up with his crap.
: I have a small moral dillemna. Drake-B just cleaned out the
: castle, has AC -26, lvl 17, one wish left in the wand. I've only
: gotten this far once before, about a year ago, with a valkyrie who
: met her end at Jubilex.
: Here's the issue. I really want this game to be legitimate
: (although I've done just about every abuse: polypoling, wishing,
: genociding, wraith luring, nurse dancing, troll dancing {lots on the B
: quest}). I think that I've got about a 1/3 chance of ascension. I was
: wondering, though, if it would be legit to copy the save file for two
: reasons:
: 1) My hard drive is really old and bits and bytes tend to go bad.
: This has destroyed a number of other small files. I really wouldn't
: want to lose my game to Hard Drvie failure.
I'm no "morality expert," but I believe the general concensus is that
save-file backups are a legitimate means of protecting your game from
crashes, power-outages, etc. What about other external events that are
detrimental to a game? I'm thinking of a cat on the keyboard, or a three-
year-old administering the Kiss of Death. Opinions?
: 2) If I do die in Gehennhom, which is likely, I want to use this
: game as a learning tool. i.e., restart from the backup save, enter
: explore mode, and try, try again.
I personally have no problem with this, especially since you'll enter explore
mode.
--
John Norris
Center for Simulation of Advanced Rockets
jno...@uiuc.edu
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/jnorris
Dylan O'Donnell
> Here's the issue. I really want this game to be legitimate
> (although I've done just about every abuse: polypoling, wishing,
> genociding, wraith luring, nurse dancing, troll dancing {lots on the B
> quest}). I think that I've got about a 1/3 chance of ascension. I was
> wondering, though, if it would be legit to copy the save file for two
> reasons:
> 1) My hard drive is really old and bits and bytes tend to go bad.
> This has destroyed a number of other small files. I really wouldn't
> want to lose my game to Hard Drvie failure.
That's fine; if you're operating in an environment where 'recover' is
likely to be unreliable, there can be no objection to backing up
save files to use if the worst happens. "External causes" is a key
phrase here, I think. (And typos don't count as external :-)
> 2) If I do die in Gehennhom, which is likely, I want to use this
> game as a learning tool. i.e., restart from the backup save, enter
> explore mode, and try, try again.
That's up to you; since it's not going in your high score table, and you
won't be posting here about it, it's your own business :-) It's nothing
you couldn't do in explore mode from the start, just saving you time.
At least, that's my opinion...
--
: Dylan O'Donnell : "The meaning doesn't matter if it's :
: Demon Internet Ltd : only idle chatter :
: Resident, Forgotten Office : Of a transcendental kind." :
: http://www.fysh.org/~psmith/ : -- W.S. Gilbert, "Patience" :
David Damerell
>quest}). I think that I've got about a 1/3 chance of ascension. I was
>wondering, though, if it would be legit to copy the save file for two
>reasons:
> 1) My hard drive is really old and bits and bytes tend to go bad.
>This has destroyed a number of other small files. I really wouldn't
>want to lose my game to Hard Drvie failure.
Certainly.
> 2) If I do die in Gehennhom, which is likely, I want to use this
>game as a learning tool. i.e., restart from the backup save, enter
>explore mode, and try, try again.
I wouldn't; you won't learn as much as you think you might...
--
David/Kirsty Damerell. dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
CUWoCS President. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/ Hail Eris!
|___| Time for some bonking. I likes a bit of bonking! |___|
| | | (Trapdoor - British children's TV) | | |
Nan Wang
so whether to save/reload is entirely at your discretion.
Kalle Olavi Niemitalo
> I'm no "morality expert," but I believe the general concensus is that
> save-file backups are a legitimate means of protecting your game from
> crashes, power-outages, etc.
Backups must not be made. If the power goes out, it was the fate of
that character.
Manually choosing the class isn't right either.
The RNG is your friend. Trust the RNG.
Jim Taylor
(Drake8) wrote:
> So, morality experts: What's up?
>
>
If you never use that savegame then there is no problem...
/Jim
mote
Kalle Olavi Niemitalo wrote:
Exactly. And play the game with your monitor unplugged from the computer.
Trust the RNG. If it wants you to win, you will.
nick
--
"warming by the fires of bridges burned..."
Kalle Olavi Niemitalo
> Exactly. And play the game with your monitor unplugged from the computer.
> Trust the RNG. If it wants you to win, you will.
Hmm... I don't take it quite that far. Do you play as you preach?
mote
Kalle Olavi Niemitalo wrote:
of course. i've also removed my keyboard and hooked up a function generator to
the PS-2 port instead. I find it allows me to relate on a much more intimate
level with the game.
-nick
Erik Andersson
> the PS-2 port instead. I find it allows me to relate on a much more intimate
> level with the game.
ROFL
Never think before you act, that is cheating
--
Erik Andersson
Erik Andersson
> the PS-2 port instead. I find it allows me to relate on a much more intimate
> level with the game.
ROFL
Never think before you act, it's cheating
--
Erik Andersson
DeborahRG
Kalle Olavi Niemitalo wrote:
>> mote <mo...@scf-fs.usc.edu> writes:
>>
>> > Exactly. And play the game with your monitor unplugged from the
>computer.
>> > Trust the RNG. If it wants you to win, you will.
>>
>> Hmm... I don't take it quite that far. Do you play as you preach?>
To which Nick replied:
>of course. i've also removed my keyboard and hooked up a function generator
>to
>the PS-2 port instead. I find it allows me to relate on a much more intimate
>level with the game.
>
>
Nick, did you check to see how many charges were in the wand of humor that you
zapped?
Is this a continuation of the same old thread Matthias started at least a month
ago?
Maybe we should consult our other Finnish nethack compatriots as to implied
national rules on choosing characters or backing up or reloading characters who
die through a power outage or other dungeon crash. IMHO, if one needed to play
only characters generated by the RNG, the game would not provide the option of
choosing a class. Losing electrical power has nothing to do with a game, so I
do not consider reloading a character lost for that reason as a problem. I
lose power fairly often during storms, and if I think there might be a problem,
I will back up a character who is advanced to protect against
a crash. If that is cheating, I will be sure to list
that proviso on any ascension post.
Deborah
DeborahRG
>Actually I think just saving the game and LEAVING it saved is the easiest
>way to avoid the disasters like a cat or a 3-year-old. Every time you leave
>the keyboard in an environment where things like those might happen. I know
>I wouldn't leave the game running where something else than myself could
>touch the keyboard when I am away or where the operating system is made by
>microsoft. Or where power failures frequently happen.
>(But, I wouldn't consider it a moral problem to use the save file copy in
>THESE situations.)
>--
Well, there is at least one opinion as to special
Finnish rules..... :-)
I don't have children, but I did respond to a post once from someone who wanted
to learn how to save a game because her little boy brought her Valk to an
untimely end when she left to answer the phone. No one prostested then that
this would be cheating. I also have lost power in the middle of a game. I
agree that regularly saving the game prevents most problems, so that is what I
do.
My life poses sufficient moral dilemmas without adding issues like saving or
backing upmy nethack game to the equation.
Deborah
Susannah Tiller
>
> Kalle Olavi Niemitalo wrote:
>
> > mote <mo...@scf-fs.usc.edu> writes:
> >
> > > Exactly. And play the game with your monitor unplugged from the computer.
> > > Trust the RNG. If it wants you to win, you will.
> >
> > Hmm... I don't take it quite that far. Do you play as you preach?
>
> the PS-2 port instead. I find it allows me to relate on a much more intimate
> level with the game.
>
Regards,
Susannah :-)
--
Susannah Tiller - susanna...@studentmail.newcastle.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/5460/index.html
"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right
to be taken seriously" - H. H. Humphrey
D.J. Schreffler
On 24 Feb 1999, Drake8 wrote:
>
> I have a small moral dillemna. Drake-B just cleaned out the
> castle, has AC -26, lvl 17, one wish left in the wand. I've only
> gotten this far once before, about a year ago, with a valkyrie who
> met her end at Jubilex.
> Here's the issue. I really want this game to be legitimate
> (although I've done just about every abuse: polypoling, wishing,
> genociding, wraith luring, nurse dancing, troll dancing {lots on the B
> quest}). I think that I've got about a 1/3 chance of ascension. I was
None of these things are abusive. All are well within game mechanics, and
indeed doing without them is considered to be a challenge.
> wondering, though, if it would be legit to copy the save file for two
> reasons:
> 1) My hard drive is really old and bits and bytes tend to go bad.
> This has destroyed a number of other small files. I really wouldn't
> want to lose my game to Hard Drvie failure.
This is a legitimate reason. Backup of data for transfer to a more stable
system.
> 2) If I do die in Gehennhom, which is likely, I want to use this
> game as a learning tool. i.e., restart from the backup save, enter
> explore mode, and try, try again.
This reason, however.....to put it plainly, copying for this reason
*would* be an abuse IMO.
D.J. Schreffler
Klaus Kassner
> quest}). I think that I've got about a 1/3 chance of ascension. I was
> wondering, though, if it would be legit to copy the save file for two
> reasons:
> 1) My hard drive is really old and bits and bytes tend to go bad.
> This has destroyed a number of other small files. I really wouldn't
> want to lose my game to Hard Drvie failure.
> 2) If I do die in Gehennhom, which is likely, I want to use this
> game as a learning tool. i.e., restart from the backup save, enter
> explore mode, and try, try again.
>
> So, morality experts: What's up?
Just save it. If you never use the save file and ascend, its o.k..
If you don't ascend, you can use it for learning, but don't pretend having
ascended. (You'll know!) You can enter explore mode immediately after using the
save file for this purpose.
If your hard drive fails, and you use the saved game without entering
explore mode, I would consider it as legitimate as long as there is not
a large difference in game time between the saved file and the point you
have been at. This is like restoring a crashed game via the recover
utility, which is legitimate.
However, if you are, say on dungeon level 45, in a tight situation,
your hard drive crashes, and you use a save file from dungeon level 25 and
ascend, then this is very much like cheating. Of course you could avoid
this by making a backup file each time you enter a new level and erase
the old one. If you use the backup file only on game crashes, you have
just implemented your own recover utility...
It all depends on your own moral integrity:-)
Toni Lassila
Well not to worry, I don't do that as is obvious by looking at my
record-file.
-
"If the meaning of life was printed in a book, someone
would use it to keep the window open."
DeborahRG
>> 2) If I do die in Gehennhom, which is likely, I want to use this
>> game as a learning tool. i.e., restart from the backup save, enter
>> explore mode, and try, try again.
D.J. Schreffler replied:
>This reason, however.....to put it plainly, copying for this reason
>*would* be an abuse IMO.
>
I am not sure that I see any difference in turning a game into one in explore
mode at the castle versus starting a game from explore mode. Any ascension
achieved from an explore mode is not considered legitimate, because you can
decide whether or not to die, but I do not see why playing explore mode to
learn aspects of the game is an abuse,
or the feature would not be offered. I
do not see it as any different from reading spoilers.
Before I found spoiler files, I played a game or two in explore mode and
created my own spoiler file. I used that information to play subsequent games.
Does that taint every game that I play in the future as built on an abuse? Is
that really any different than if I had downloaded all of the spoiler files and
read them before playing? How about reading the sources?
IMHO, you learn more about the game from playing in explore mode and
experimenting than you do from simply reading spoiler files. I actually
endorse experimenting in explore mode, and then reserving the spoilers for
questions that you cannot answer yourself.
I am certain others might not agree, but as long as you don't claim an explore
mode ascension as one achieved through regular play (and I do not think that
the score will appear on your top ten list anyways), I see
no abuse.
Deborah
Martin Read
>> 2) If I do die in Gehennhom, which is likely, I want to use this
>> game as a learning tool. i.e., restart from the backup save, enter
>> explore mode, and try, try again.
>
>*would* be an abuse IMO.
No, because he's going to go into explore mode when he restores the backup.
M.
--
\_V_/ | Martin Read, 16 Willow Crescent, Durrington, Worthing BN13 2SU
\ / | "A pierced lip - a warm embrace/ice blue eyes that chill my heart
V | Valkyrie kisses burn my face/this 'red thirst' tears my world apart"
------/ --- Skyclad, "My Mother In Darkness"
Irina Rempt
> I am not sure that I see any difference in turning a game into one in explore
> mode at the castle versus starting a game from explore mode.
[etcetera]
She's absolutely right.
> Before I found spoiler files, I played a game or two in explore mode and
> created my own spoiler file. I used that information to play subsequent games.
> Does that taint every game that I play in the future as built on an abuse? Is
> that really any different than if I had downloaded all of the spoiler files and
> read them before playing? How about reading the sources?
And if you're really that strict, every ascension except the very first
is invalid. After all, you've seen everything at least once before.
Raisse the Thaumaturge
--
ir...@rempt.xs4all.nl -- Ascended: VPWATHVP -- Raisse the Thaumaturge
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/irina/frontpage.html (English)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/irina/backpage.html (Nederlands)
Bagpuss
>>Never think before you act, that is cheating
>
>Well not to worry, I don't do that as is obvious by looking at my
>record-file.
It doesn't record if you were frozen by a floating eye at the time you got
trounced by a newt does it? If so I think my record could be a bit
embarrassing.
Not that "Richard-S Explvl 14 Killed by a gnome" isn't embarrassing.
--
Richard Smeltzer
Juliet? You mean Ethel.
Bagpuss
>Kalle Olavi Niemitalo wrote:
>>> mote <mo...@scf-fs.usc.edu> writes:
>>>
>>> > Exactly. And play the game with your monitor unplugged from the
>>computer.
>>> > Trust the RNG. If it wants you to win, you will.
>>>
>>> Hmm... I don't take it quite that far. Do you play as you preach?>
>
>
>>of course. i've also removed my keyboard and hooked up a function generator
>>to
>>the PS-2 port instead. I find it allows me to relate on a much more
>>intimate level with the game.
>
>you zapped?
>
>Is this a continuation of the same old thread Matthias started at least a
>month ago?
>
>Maybe we should consult our other Finnish nethack compatriots as to implied
>national rules on choosing characters or backing up or reloading characters
>who die through a power outage or other dungeon crash. IMHO, if one needed
>to play only characters generated by the RNG, the game would not provide the
>option of choosing a class. Losing electrical power has nothing to do with a
>game, so I do not consider reloading a character lost for that reason as a
>problem. I lose power fairly often during storms, and if I think there might
>be a problem, I will back up a character who is advanced to protect against
>a crash. If that is cheating, I will be sure to list
>that proviso on any ascension post.
I think we can probably tell you're not abiding by Nick's rules by the fact
that you *have* an ascension post.
Bagpuss
>DeborahRG wrote:
>> Before I found spoiler files, I played a game or two in explore mode and
>> created my own spoiler file. I used that information to play subsequent
games.
>> Does that taint every game that I play in the future as built on an abuse?
>> Is that really any different than if I had downloaded all of the spoiler
>> files and read them before playing? How about reading the sources?
>
>And if you're really that strict, every ascension except the very first
>is invalid. After all, you've seen everything at least once before.
No! Unless you ascend on your very first game having never viewed any spoiler
files nor spoken to anyone about the game, it doesn't count and anyone who
disagrees gets an appointment with a pointy thing called Liberalbane!
Jan-Erik Finnberg
>And if you're really that strict, every ascension except the very first
>is invalid. After all, you've seen everything at least once before.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think it's safe to say that the above sentence is bollocs when you are
playing Nethack...
--
Jan-Erik Finnberg, whe...@icenet.spam.goes.maps.fi *Only spam should go maps*
Ascended: Jope-E
DeborahRG
>
>I think we can probably tell you're not abiding by Nick's rules by the fact
>that you *have* an ascension post.
>
>
I wrote:
>> If that is cheating, I will be sure to list
>>that proviso on any ascension post.>>
Actually, I have not posted my one ascension.
I have noted some of the more interesting things that occurred in threads
related to other topics. (That Valk did nto fall prey to a power outage, but
it has happened to me.) Of course, as noted on another thread, the fact that I
learned some aspects of the game by playing in explore mode, and used them to
ascend, taints that ascension
according to some others who posted on a
related thread.
This begs the point that I interpreted Nick's post as sarcastic, and so replied
in the same
vein.
Deborah
Bagpuss
>Richard Smeltzer wrote in response to my post:
>>
>>I think we can probably tell you're not abiding by Nick's rules by the fact
>>that you *have* an ascension post.
>
>I wrote:
>
>>> If that is cheating, I will be sure to list
>>>that proviso on any ascension post.>>
>
>Actually, I have not posted my one ascension.
I was talking hypothetically.
>This begs the point that I interpreted Nick's post as sarcastic, and so replied
>in the same vein.
So did I, but you're not the first person to have failed to understand my sense
of humour, so don't worry about it.
--
Richard Smeltzer
I laugh in the face of Danger!
Then I hide until it goes away.
DeborahRG
Richard Smeltzer quoted an interchange between myself and Irina Rempt :
>>> (me) Before I found spoiler files, I played a game or two in explore mode
and
>>> created my own spoiler file. I used that information to play subsequent
>games.
>>> Does that taint every game that I play in the future as built on an
>abuse?
>>> Is that really any different than if I had downloaded all of the spoiler
>>> files and read them before playing? How about reading the sources?
>> (Irina)
>>And if you're really that strict, every ascension except the very first
>>is invalid. After all, you've seen everything at least once before.
(Richard)
>No! Unless you ascend on your very first game having never viewed any spoiler
>
>files nor spoken to anyone about the game, it doesn't count and anyone who
>disagrees gets an appointment with a pointy thing called Liberalbane!
>
Now how many charges did that wand of humor have/ Methinks it weas a wand of
sarcasm. At least a few compatriots got my "point." I could make a lewd
response about other "points," or meeting "pointy things," but I won't.
Irina, as per her usual, posted a witty, insightful response. the hyperbole
began to run pretty thick, but I don't get the reference to a "Liberalbane"
Richard. It could be a lame, U.S./American lapse. I hate missing a good joke.
Bagpuss
>Trying to take discussions of moral dimlemnas to greater heights (or depths),
>Richard Smeltzer quoted an interchange between myself and Irina Rempt :
>>>> (me) Before I found spoiler files, I played a game or two in explore mode
>>>> and created my own spoiler file. I used that information to play subsequent
>>>> games. Does that taint every game that I play in the future as built on an
>>>> abuse? Is that really any different than if I had downloaded all of the spoiler
>>>> files and read them before playing? How about reading the sources?
>>> (Irina)
>>>And if you're really that strict, every ascension except the very first
>>>is invalid. After all, you've seen everything at least once before.
>
>(Richard)
>>No! Unless you ascend on your very first game having never viewed any spoiler
>>files nor spoken to anyone about the game, it doesn't count and anyone who
>>disagrees gets an appointment with a pointy thing called Liberalbane!
>
>sarcasm. At least a few compatriots got my "point." I could make a lewd
>response about other "points," or meeting "pointy things," but I won't.
Good. If I was being serious, I'd have said that compiling your own spoilers
is no different from reading others'.
>Irina, as per her usual, posted a witty, insightful response. the hyperbole
>began to run pretty thick, but I don't get the reference to a "Liberalbane"
>Richard. It could be a lame, U.S./American lapse. I hate missing a good joke.
You didn't miss a good joke; it was one of mine. I just meant that allowing
people to claim to have ascended if they already knew anything whatsoever
about the game is disgustingly liberal. To save myself from such abuse, I
keep a mind-flayer beside my computer for use before a game of Nethack.
--
Richard Smeltzer
Sometimes I dream I'm giving a lecture and then I wake up to find that I am.
- Dr. Alan Slomson
DeborahRG
>>Irina, as per her usual, posted a witty, insightful response. the hyperbole
>>began to run pretty thick, but I don't get the reference to a "Liberalbane"
>>Richard. It could be a lame, U.S./American lapse. I hate missing a good
>joke.>>
To which Richard replied:
>You didn't miss a good joke; it was one of mine. I just meant that allowing
>people to claim to have ascended if they already knew anything whatsoever
>about the game is disgustingly liberal. To save myself from such abuse, I
>keep a mind-flayer beside my computer for use before a game of Nethack.
>
>
As a daughter of Eve, I am tainted, and therefore willingly eat of fruit from
the posionous "liberal" tree.
Deborah
DeborahRG
>...you're not the first person to have failed to understand my sense
>of humour, so don't worry about it.
>
>
It's all context, and there were sufficient serious objections, I could not be
sure. there was no 'worry" involved." I say we take the easy route to this
"Gordion Knot" on morality and simply cut the thread.
Deborah
DavidRaine
>the posionous "liberal" tree.
I think a new item has been discovered here: the ring of humor! Just like the
wand, except it never runs out of charges.
David Raine
Ulrich M. Schwarz
...and when you wear a ring of humour and a ring of pun resistance, mariliths
should be a breeze ;)
(btw, wouldn't an item 'of humour' be a cursed oilskin sack? <g>)
dig out your language knowledge....or <EBG13> thrff jurer gur jbeq uhzvqvgl
pbzrf sebz...uhzbhe'f sebz gur fnzr cynpr</EBG13>.
(No and don't bother asking for someone to decode this [why do people *only* do
this when *I* rot13?]...grinduckrun)
>David Raine
-----
Ulrich M. Schwarz - uschwarz <at> nwn <dot> de
and why not look at www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/smiley/574 ?
none (null)
Ulrich M. Schwarz <usch...@NOSPAM.nwn.de> wrote:
>...and when you wear a ring of humour and a ring of pun resistance, mariliths
>should be a breeze ;)
I usually just wear a rubber armor, and throw potions of glue. ;)
--
Bitwise, Andrew. &
DeborahRG
>
>>As a daughter of Eve, I am tainted, and therefore willingly eat of fruit
>from
>>the posionous "liberal" tree.
>
>
To which David Raine responded:
>
>I think a new item has been discovered here: the ring of humor! Just like
>the
>wand, except it never runs out of charges.
>
>
No rings needed for those of us who obtained the humour intrinsic from
conception.... Sometimes, we all "miss,"
so maybe there is a dexterity factor at
work.
I didn't bother looking back until now, but I am glad at least David
appreciated the reference as having some humour value, even though the analogy
meshed well with my original point, which Irina expanded on.
It seems like someone got my Gordion Knot reference to the rest of this
thread....I truly am not looking forward to the day when we have an Ascension
Post Ethics Committee on this newsgroup.
Deborah