Wizard, Early Game Strategy
Red Bandit
thread about barbarians. I can usually get to the first quest level.
But, I'm never high enough EXP Level to actually go on the Quest. I
usually die trying to level up. This is always after doing the Gnomish
Mines. My best guess is I'm going too fast, but it hardly seems
possible! I know nothing; I am not a demi-god.
1. What are some priorities for an early game wizard?
I like playing elves, but doubt(?) there's anything too specific for
elves. Besides bow and arrows maybe? I prefer daggers, and try to keep
them all and ditch daggers that 'slip when thrown.'
2. What is a good armor strategy?
I sell most helmets that lower the 100% success rate for force bolt. I
try to find studded leather or leather armor. I keep my cloak of MR
forever. I'm also not sure when to read enchant armor/weapon
scrolls... I wait until burdened. Same with ID scrolls. It seems to
stop much tougher monsters from rushing me.
3. Escaping when?
How do you decide when to just run away from combat? IFO have less
than 15 HP or so, I start looking for ways to run away. I can pretty
reliably guess which scrolls are teleport and can figure out wands of
digging. What's another good, immediate getaway?
4. Light, magic mapping, locking, and secret door detection.
I just sell these useless items in shops. Is that dumb?
You guys all rock! Discussions are usually Informative/Insightful,
even when flames. I'm dying(LoL) to beat the game! Any help is
appreciated. Thanks!
Janis Papanagnou
> I can't deny it... I was inspired and really helped by the previous
> thread about barbarians. I can usually get to the first quest level.
> But, I'm never high enough EXP Level to actually go on the Quest. I
> usually die trying to level up. This is always after doing the Gnomish
> Mines. My best guess is I'm going too fast, but it hardly seems
> possible! I know nothing; I am not a demi-god.
>
> 1. What are some priorities for an early game wizard?
> I like playing elves, but doubt(?) there's anything too specific for
> elves. Besides bow and arrows maybe? I prefer daggers, and try to keep
> them all and ditch daggers that 'slip when thrown.'
I am usually developing my attack spells and throw daggers to get
proficiency for the Magicbane. Sacrificing to get that weapon is
a priority in my games; it's an aweful weapon. But generally don't
let the monsters approach to melee range; place ranged attacks as
long as possible.
> 2. What is a good armor strategy?
> I sell most helmets that lower the 100% success rate for force bolt. I
> try to find studded leather or leather armor. I keep my cloak of MR
> forever. I'm also not sure when to read enchant armor/weapon
> scrolls... I wait until burdened. Same with ID scrolls. It seems to
> stop much tougher monsters from rushing me.
I suggest to read (non-cursed) enchant weapon/armor scrolls; both
increase early survivability. And use your identify scrolls to see
if you have found some helpful magic item, rings for example. But
apply also the other ways to identify objects; price-ID with help
from shopkeepers, engrave-ID of wands, engrave with gems to find
hard ones (to create Elbereth spots). Wear metal armor only if you
can still cast your basic attack spells or can rely on other attacks.
> 3. Escaping when?
> How do you decide when to just run away from combat? IFO have less
> than 15 HP or so, I start looking for ways to run away. I can pretty
> reliably guess which scrolls are teleport and can figure out wands of
> digging. What's another good, immediate getaway?
Cursed potions of gain level take you to the level above, scrolls of
scare monster helps, wands of teleport are nice, all those engraving
wands (for Elbereth), fire, lightning. It's not easy to give a general
answer when to run away. Spotting a mumak in the early game is often
a reason to run away, or rather to keep distance and do ranged attacks.
It really depends; 50 HP for a bunch of soldier ants is not much, and
quite deadly if you're lacking poison resistance. I fear you will have
to make your experience at your own, how much you can fight, and when
to flee. But always keep an escape route open, and don't let monsters
surround you!
> 4. Light, magic mapping, locking, and secret door detection.
> I just sell these useless items in shops. Is that dumb?
It's unwise to sell them; mostly. Imagine you fall through a trapdoor
into a dark area, you have no idea where the exit of the room is or
where the upstairs are to reach a safer already explored level. If you
apply your means of light you immediately see any foes and typically
enough to find the exit of the room. Magic mapping doesn't let you
spot nearby monsters, but at least you can plan your escape route and
increase your escape and survival chances in case of an ambush. (The
wand of secret door detection is most useful in the late game.)
Janis
RjY
>I can usually get to the first quest level. But, I'm never high enough
>EXP Level to actually go on the Quest.
You need to get yourself a few potions of gain level, or some wraith
corpses. Unfortunately the former tend to get imbibed by monsters and
the latter easily rot but fighting to level 14 the hard way is going to
take thousands of turns of scumming/grinding/whateveryouliketocallit.
>1. What are some priorities for an early game wizard?
[...]
>2. What is a good armor strategy?
Early game: decent AC, a bunch of daggers to throw, and poison
resistance. I think armour helps early game survivability better than
being able to cast spells[1] so I tend to go and try to find some
mithril. Once I have a few levels and have perhaps acquired Magicbane I
will switch to studded leather so I can start casting.
[1] Unless the spell you have is one that will almost guarantee the
monsters will stop hitting you instantly. In other words I may
reconsider my deferral of spellcasting if I start with Charm Monster.
But that sadly does not often happen.
>3. Escaping when?
>How do you decide when to just run away from combat?
Running away is something I am very bad at. Enough Elbereths seem to
work for most things[2]. Dust elbereth + levitation is almost as good as
Magicbane's engraved Elbereths if you do not yet have access to the
latter.
[2] I did once get very stuck because I had a bunch of hostile
greenelves around the upstairs on some level and couldn't get past them.
Go down, get smacked for half your HP in one turn, go back up again...
There were probably options but I was bored and let a unicorn kill me.
>4. Light, magic mapping, locking, and secret door detection.
>I just sell these useless items in shops. Is that dumb?
I would keep the items unless I really needed the money. Gold is
plentiful.
Doug Freyburger
>
> I can't deny it... I was inspired and really helped by the previous
> thread about barbarians. I can usually get to the first quest level.
> But, I'm never high enough EXP Level to actually go on the Quest.
The level for the Quest is high enough it's not reasonable to
acheive it through combat. Look for other ways of gaining
levels.
> I
> usually die trying to level up. This is always after doing the Gnomish
> Mines. My best guess is I'm going too fast, but it hardly seems
> possible! I know nothing; I am not a demi-god.
If you consistantly survive the mines and Sokoban to survive
to what I call the mid-game then your strategy is good. If
you suspect you're descending too fast you probably are
descending too fast - Unless you're not searching for ways
to level up that don't take combat.
> 1. What are some priorities for an early game wizard?
For me the early game is the mines and Sokoban.
Playing a wizard I want to drive my dagger skill towards
Expert as rapidly as possible consistant with surviving. I pick
up and throw all dagger class weapons. I gradually evolve
my collection of daggers toward one large stack of highly
enchanted elven daggers but that doesn't happen until the
mid-game. In the early game I'll have several evolving stacks
of daggers to throw. Fire soon and fire often then retrieve
the daggers when the crowd thins. Retreat to a doorway
to be able to fire.
I tend to name Sting for wielding once about XP=4. I want
to resist the temptation to waste skill slots on the staff but
sometimes the realities of the game say I need to. Don't
use a skill slot on it unless you need it to get out of trouble.
> I like playing elves, but doubt(?) there's anything too specific for
> elves. Besides bow and arrows maybe? I prefer daggers, and try to keep
> them all and ditch daggers that 'slip when thrown.'
For a wizard I might only enhance the dagger school in the
early game. No interest in bows or any other weapon
class. I'll only enhance a larger melee weapon if I get one
from sacrificing, and if I have a larger melee weapon from
sacrificing that means I have Magicbane. Once
Magicbane is available, wield it and don't unwield it except
to "x" to a larger artifact melee weapon like Stormbringer or
one of the artifact long swords. As soon as out of trouble
"x" back to Magicbane.
It takes 6 skill slots to get dagger to Expert. That puts you
at XP=7 when you get there. Then it will be time to start
enhancing spell schools one at a time. Maybe mixing in
the one slot for a second large melee weapon but that is
always backup for the entire game.
Daggers for quiver, Sting then Magicbane daggers for wield.
Drive to Expert. Other weapons classes only when needed
or as backup. Essentially all other weapons are temporary
even the initial staff that's needed for a few levels then not
for the rest of the game. Then work on spells.
> 2. What is a good armor strategy?
> I sell most helmets that lower the 100% success rate for force bolt. I
> try to find studded leather or leather armor.
Two options for early wizards - Studded leather to start on
spells as soon as possible or the studded leather in the
stash and wear mithril until Expert at dagger and machine
gunning them in volleys. I tend to prefer the mithril route in
the early game. Late option is dragon scale.
> I keep my cloak of MR forever.
Option one - silver dragon scales, cloak of MR, amulet of
LS. Option two - gray dragon scales, robe or protection,
amulet of R. A wizard likely does not need the spell
casting advantage of a robe.
But you asked about the early game. The robe from a
cross-aligned mine-town priest or the cloak from a dead
elf will be tempting. Stealth from an elven cloak doesn't
suck - But stealth also comes from elven boots.
Some wizard armor strategy is no different from anyone
else - BUC check at altar and try on all armor items that
are not cursed. Do some compromisze with the results.
Sure, you want elven boots for stealth, elven leather helmet
for no spell casting interference, studded leather armor,
cloak of MR, leather gloves. But if you get some highly
enchanted other item go with it. And the armor set in the
late game is different. Teeshirt, GDSM/SDSM, [oMR or
other cloak, speed boots or jumping, dexterity gloves,
helmet of brilliance or pointed hat of gesundheit
pronunctation.
> I'm also not sure when to read enchant armor/weapon
> scrolls... I wait until burdened.
The trade off - Enchant items of your current armor set
or save them for items of your final set? If you died with
a scroll then you waited too long. Enchant the current
set! Early on if you have both studded leather and
mithril, enchant the studded leather until it gives better
AC than mithril then switch to it.
Enchant your weapons in order Magicbane (to +2 or +6
tastes vary), your stack of "a dozen" elven daggers in your
quiver, alternate artifact secondary wield for backup,
Sting before you get Magicbane okay to get it to +6 to
keep in the bag, don't care about any other weapons.
> Same with ID scrolls. It seems to
> stop much tougher monsters from rushing me.
If you have means to bless ID scrolls do hold lots when
reading them. This does NOT equal exploring while
Burdened. Have a small stash per level for recently found
items.
> 3. Escaping when?
> How do you decide when to just run away from combat? IFO have less
> than 15 HP or so, I start looking for ways to run away. I can pretty
> reliably guess which scrolls are teleport and can figure out wands of
> digging. What's another good, immediate getaway?
Pets break combat at 50% of their max HP. That's a lot
better idea than going all the way down to 15. That's
how you're getting into trouble and dying.
> 4. Light, magic mapping, locking, and secret door detection.
> I just sell these useless items in shops. Is that dumb?
If you still have a use for the money it's fine. Money gets
worthless later in the game but not in the early game.
James Of Tucson
> 1. What are some priorities for an early game wizard?
Staying alive, and not dying.
> I like playing elves, but doubt(?) there's anything too specific for
> elves.
It's handy to #name Sting, and that won't affect your chances of
getting MB. I consider infravision, sleep resistance, and the orc
bonus/detection to be significant early-game advantages for an elven
wizard.
> 2. What is a good armor strategy?
Well, the thing about an early wizard is that he's hardly a magic user
at all. So he's got to be a defensive fighter.
You don't want to put on any cursed armor, of course, because while
other classes can get away with, say, wearing that cursed dwarvish
mithril, a wizard must be able to strip. I "adjust" my inventory so
that the order I put things on is "A, B, C, D, E..." and I find this
avoids accidents and keeps me disciplined.
> I'm also not sure when to read enchant armor/weapon
> scrolls... I wait until burdened.
I hoard them until they become commonplace. Sometimes, if I can do it
early, I will fireproof my CoMR. I find fireproofing to often be a
bigger win than a point of enchantment.
> 3. Escaping when?
> How do you decide when to just run away from combat?
Most wizard combat *is* an escape strategy.
> IFO have less
> than 15 HP or so, I start looking for ways to run away. I can pretty
> reliably guess which scrolls are teleport and can figure out wands of
> digging. What's another good, immediate getaway?
Well, Magicbane spends a lot of time carving :-)
> 4. Light, magic mapping, locking, and secret door detection.
> I just sell these useless items in shops. Is that dumb?
MM isn't useless. Might as well sell scrolls and books, then at
least you know where they are stashed when it comes time to polypile /
blank.
James Of Tucson
> Enchant your weapons in order Magicbane (to +2 or +6
> tastes vary), your stack of "a dozen" elven daggers in your
> quiver, alternate artifact secondary wield for backup,
> Sting before you get Magicbane okay to get it to +6 to
> keep in the bag, don't care about any other weapons.
I wouldn't throw away a Brand.
Silver daggers are handy as well and I wish they weren't so rare.
Janis Papanagnou
> On Aug 17, 8:35 am, Red Bandit <redban...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm also not sure when to read enchant armor/weapon
>> scrolls... I wait until burdened.
>
> I hoard them until they become commonplace. Sometimes, if I can do it
> early, I will fireproof my CoMR. I find fireproofing to often be a
> bigger win than a point of enchantment.
An (accumulative) damaged armor will lose protection at most up to it's
basic protection value, so making any AC=1 armour (like CoMR) fireproof
is no gain. As long as your CoMR is undamaged you will have a naked AC
of 9, enchanted an AC of 8, burnt and unenchanted AC:9, fireproof and
unenchanted AC:9. So enchanting it is always better as long as it's not
rotted or burnt, fireproofing is not better even if the enchanted CoMR
is burnt. Once the CoMR (for example) is at maximum enchantment (AC>3),
and rotten or burnt, and you have spare scrolls of enchanr armour, you
can still fireproof it if you need that additional protection point.
Janis
APLer
news:4be68dc0-8793-444e...@q35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com:
> I can't deny it... I was inspired and really helped by the previous
> thread about barbarians. I can usually get to the first quest level.
> But, I'm never high enough EXP Level to actually go on the Quest. I
> usually die trying to level up. This is always after doing the Gnomish
> Mines. My best guess is I'm going too fast, but it hardly seems
> possible! I know nothing; I am not a demi-god.
>
> 1. What are some priorities for an early game wizard?
> I like playing elves, but doubt(?) there's anything too specific for
> elves. Besides bow and arrows maybe? I prefer daggers, and try to keep
> them all and ditch daggers that 'slip when thrown.'
>
Yeah, that works. You know the other three of course - the direct method
and things and beings around you.
> 2. What is a good armor strategy?
> I sell most helmets that lower the 100% success rate for force bolt. I
> try to find studded leather or leather armor. I keep my cloak of MR
> forever. I'm also not sure when to read enchant armor/weapon
> scrolls... I wait until burdened. Same with ID scrolls. It seems to
> stop much tougher monsters from rushing me.
>
Speaking as someone who got as far as dying from the *other* wizard and
has done the Wow castle several times as one, Armor is armor. Keep what
keeps you alive until you *know* you're ok. Leather and mineral armor will
show up eventually, the point is to keep your AC as low as possible.
Studded leather a cloak, iron boots, no shield and a dwarven helm you can
remove for when you *do* use spells - you generally can't gain advancement
until you have 100 points anyways - works well. You fooproof them the
first chance you get and then enchant them once you *know* their
protection level. Same with the quarterstaff - it's the best non-artifact
weapon you can use short of a morningstar.
> 3. Escaping when?
> How do you decide when to just run away from combat? IFO have less
> than 15 HP or so, I start looking for ways to run away. I can pretty
> reliably guess which scrolls are teleport and can figure out wands of
> digging. What's another good, immediate getaway?
>
When there's more than one and you're not in a doorway period. Don't fight
anything in the middle of a room *ever*. Something else will come along
far too often. Get safe while you can, not when you're about to die.
> 4. Light, magic mapping, locking, and secret door detection.
> I just sell these useless items in shops. Is that dumb?
>
Blank them. You'll need them later. magic mapping and secret door
detection are useful later on. Keep those.
Red Bandit
> Sacrificing to get that weapon is
> a priority in my games; it's an aweful weapon.
I'm assuming you mean full of awe there... LoL
>And use your identify scrolls to see
> if you have found some helpful magic item, rings for example.
Is there another way to ID rings? I mean besides dropping them down
the drain...
> Imagine you fall through a trapdoor
> into a dark area...
Okokokokok. Good point. I usually sell light (wands or scrolls)
because it seems unnecessary. Lamps and lanterns are sort-of helpful,
but gold is nice! I try to buy out shops, and I don't know another way
to easily raise money. I'll make a few trips to and from the shop near/
above the fork (Mines/Dungeon?) or to minetown stores if logical. I
usually end up with more scrolls/potions than I can easily identify.
RyJ wrote:
>fighting to level 14 the hard way is going to
>take thousands of turns of scumming/grinding/whateveryouliketocallit.
This may be the key to my failure. Between this and a later reply, I
may know the answer.
>I think armour helps early game survivability better
Interesting. There's a split decision on the armor issue.
>Dust elbereth + levitation is almost as good as
>Magicbane's engraved Elbereths if you do not yet
> have access to the latter.
Wow. The DevTeam thinks of everything! Never woulda occurred to me.
Always wondered what to do with potions of levitation.
Doug longlastname wrote:
> it's not reasonable to acheive it through combat.
Previously covered, but still worth repetition.
>Unless you're not searching for ways
>to level up that don't take combat.
Yeah... That was it.
>I tend to name Sting for wielding once about XP=4.
Also interesting point. I don't usually name Sting, but a quick
WikiHack visit, and I am enlightened.
>For a wizard I might only enhance the dagger school in the
>early game. No interest in bows or any other weapon
>class. I'll only enhance a larger melee weapon if I get one
>from sacrificing, and if I have a larger melee weapon from
>sacrificing that means I have Magicbane. Once
>Magicbane is available, wield it and don't unwield it except
>to "x" to a larger artifact melee weapon like Stormbringer or
>one of the artifact long swords. As soon as out of trouble
>"x" back to Magicbane.
Wild. I figured out the staff was probably the weakest weapon in the
game just by common sense. I thought it was worthwhile to grab a mace
or axe, both of which seemed substantially more powerful until
Magicbane. I also liked the fact that axes could be thrown.
>...Then work on spells.
Another shocker to me. I've been using force bolt on any powerful
creature relative to my level (i.e. fox - exp 1/2, the first gnome I
meet, gnome lords till exp 4/5ish, almost all dwarves, ants, etc.) I
use Magic Missile on nymphs to not break the mirror. It seemed like a
huge advantage to get force bolt down to 4 instead of 5 mp (a 20%
difference!).
> Stealth from an elven cloak doesn't
> suck - But stealth also comes from elven boots.
I didn't know... Wow. More Insightfulness. Ok.
> Early on if you have both studded leather and
> mithril, enchant the studded leather until it gives better
> AC than mithril then switch to it.
Also Interesting. The implication is a much greater reliance on
daggers than I'd thought.
> your stack of "a dozen" elven daggers in your quiver
How do you do this without getting Burdened?? You must stash much more
than I do. Again, more staggering implications.
>Have a small stash per level for recently found items.
Uhhh. yeah. Whoops.
>Pets break combat at 50% of their max HP.
Much more conservative than I've been. Probably also correct.
James Of Tucson wrote:
>Staying alive, and not dying.
LoL. Good plan.
>I consider infravision, sleep resistance, and the orc bonus/detection
I wasn't sure if that was an elf thing or not. Cool confirmation.
>Well, the thing about an early wizard is that he's hardly a magic user
So I'm learning.
>I will fireproof my CoMR.
Huh? How'd you do that? I thought Enchant Armor while confused was
rustproofing?
>Silver daggers are handy as well and I wish they weren't so rare.
My favorite weapon in the game! I love the message from throwing a
silver dagger at the werefoos! Awesome stuff.
Janis Papanagnou
> James Of Tucson wrote:
>> On Aug 17, 8:35 am, Red Bandit <redban...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm also not sure when to read enchant armor/weapon
>>> scrolls... I wait until burdened.
>>
>> I hoard them until they become commonplace. Sometimes, if I can do it
>> early, I will fireproof my CoMR. I find fireproofing to often be a
>> bigger win than a point of enchantment.
>
> An (accumulative) damaged armor will lose protection at most up to it's
> basic protection value, so making any AC=1 armour (like CoMR) fireproof
> is no gain. As long as your CoMR is undamaged you will have a naked AC
> of 9, enchanted an AC of 8, burnt and unenchanted AC:9, fireproof and
Oops... "enchanted an AC of 8, burnt and enchanted AC:9, fireproof [...]"
James Kanze
> Red Bandit posted:
> >I can usually get to the first quest level. But, I'm never
> >high enough EXP Level to actually go on the Quest.
> You need to get yourself a few potions of gain level, or some
> wraith corpses. Unfortunately the former tend to get imbibed
> by monsters and the latter easily rot but fighting to level 14
> the hard way is going to take thousands of turns of
> scumming/grinding/whateveryouliketocallit.
Wraith corpses are generally the easiest way, but it is possible
to get to level 14 by just killing things.
> >1. What are some priorities for an early game wizard?
> [...]
> >2. What is a good armor strategy?
> Early game: decent AC, a bunch of daggers to throw, and poison
> resistance. I think armour helps early game survivability
> better than being able to cast spells[1] so I tend to go and
> try to find some mithril. Once I have a few levels and have
> perhaps acquired Magicbane I will switch to studded leather so
> I can start casting.
> [1] Unless the spell you have is one that will almost
> guarantee the monsters will stop hitting you instantly. In
> other words I may reconsider my deferral of spellcasting if I
> start with Charm Monster. But that sadly does not often
> happen.
And even when it does? How often can you cast it with the power
you have at the beginning? In my experience, armor trumps just
about everything, until you've gotten your AC distinctly
negative. And until you've got a lot of daggers, and have upped
your skills in them so you can multi-throw, keep that
quarterstaff. It's good against weaker monsters, and will allow
you to keep your ranged attacts for the more deadly ones. (One
very disagreeable scenario: you kill a monster by throwing all
of your daggers. Your pet picks them up and wanders off with
them, just as something dangerous comes in the door.)
[...]
> >4. Light, magic mapping, locking, and secret door detection.
> >I just sell these useless items in shops. Is that dumb?
> I would keep the items unless I really needed the money. Gold is
> plentiful.
Enough gold, and you can buy protection. Not to be sneezed at,
especially in the early game (when protection is cheeper, and
you haven't found any good armor yet).
Still, there are usually other, even less useful things which
you can sell for more.
--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:james...@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
James Kanze
> On Aug 17, 8:35 am, Red Bandit <redban...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> I hoard them until they become commonplace. Sometimes, if I
> can do it early, I will fireproof my CoMR. I find
> fireproofing to often be a bigger win than a point of
> enchantment.
Why? The most you can loose through fire, rotting, etc. is 1
AC. The reduction in AC from enchantment comes immediately. If
later, the CoMR is burnt or rotted, you end up at the level you
would have had with fireproofing, but no worse.
James Kanze
> Red Bandit <redban...@gmail.com> wrote
> innews:4be68dc0-8793-444e...@q35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com:
[...]
> > 2. What is a good armor strategy?
> > I sell most helmets that lower the 100% success rate for
> > force bolt. I try to find studded leather or leather armor.
> > I keep my cloak of MR forever. I'm also not sure when to
> > read enchant armor/weapon scrolls... I wait until burdened.
> > Same with ID scrolls. It seems to stop much tougher monsters
> > from rushing me.
>
> Speaking as someone who got as far as dying from the *other*
> wizard and has done the Wow castle several times as one,
I think most of us responding have several (or more) ascensions
behind them.
> Armor
> is armor. Keep what keeps you alive until you *know* you're
> ok. Leather and mineral armor will show up eventually, the
> point is to keep your AC as low as possible.
That's generally true up to a point. Once your AC goes
negative, I generally find it worthwhile to consider possible
other benefits as well. (But only once your AC goes negative;
before that, the less AC the better.)
> Studded leather a cloak, iron boots, no shield and a dwarven
> helm you can remove for when you *do* use spells - you
> generally can't gain advancement until you have 100 points
> anyways - works well. You fooproof them the first chance you
> get and then enchant them once you *know* their protection
> level.
Foo-proofing generally isn't worth the bother. And you know the
protection of armor as soon as you put it on.
> Same with the quarterstaff - it's the best non-artifact
> weapon you can use short of a morningstar.
Or a crysknife, or a battle axe, or a dwarvish mattock, or any
of the swords, or a mace, or a flail, or any of the spears, or a
javelin, or a trident, or a lance, or a unicorn horn. In fact,
it's probably the worst two handed weapon there is. Multi-shot
daggers also beat it, and are ranged.
That doesn't mean you don't use it. You've got it. At the
beginning, you've not got anything else, you're basic in it, and
since you're going to be using daggers, and later magic, it's
generally not worth getting anything better---it is
adequate---until you do get an artifact.
David Damerell
>I suggest to read (non-cursed) enchant weapon/armor scrolls; both
>increase early survivability.
Quite. Dying with them doesn't do you any good. It is worth mentioning
that you should get the enchant-armours into your CoMR for as long as
possible - you will be wearing it all game.
>answer when to run away. Spotting a mumak in the early game is often
>a reason to run away, or rather to keep distance and do ranged attacks.
Fortunately mumakil are now very slow.
>>4. Light, magic mapping, locking, and secret door detection.
>>I just sell these useless items in shops. Is that dumb?
>It's unwise to sell them; mostly.
Also there has to be something you want the gold _for_, in view of the way
that stealing from shops is often trivial.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Yesterday was Teleute, August.
Today is Oneiros, August.
Tomorrow will be Mania, August.
David Damerell
>Janis longlastname wrote:
>>And use your identify scrolls to see
>>if you have found some helpful magic item, rings for example.
>Is there another way to ID rings? I mean besides dropping them down
>the drain...
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/nhid.html
Potted summary; price-ID the identify scroll, price/pet-ID holy water or
pray for it, bless identify scrolls, read blessed identify scrolls,
identify entire inventory with 1/5 probability per scroll.
>>your stack of "a dozen" elven daggers in your quiver
>How do you do this without getting Burdened?? You must stash much more
>than I do. Again, more staggering implications.
If you can't use a scroll or potion or ring, because it is not identified,
it does you no good to carry it around.
Another common source of junk in the early game is gems. Leave 'em.
>>I will fireproof my CoMR.
>Huh? How'd you do that? I thought Enchant Armor while confused was
>rustproofing?
It does all *proofing. _But_ fireproofing a 1-AC item like a CoMR is worth
at most 1 AC. It _cannot_ be destroyed by degrading attacks (in vanilla);
it cannot drop below 0 physical AC. So if you can bless scrolls, they work
better for increasing plusses (as long as it is safe) than for
fireproofing.
Doug Freyburger
> Janis longlastname wrote:
>
> >And use your identify scrolls to see
> > if you have found some helpful magic item, rings for example.
>
> Is there another way to ID rings? I mean besides dropping them down
> the drain...
Some of the rings self identify when they have + or - stats.
Conflict can be identified in a few moves by reading
messages. Pricing does help some.
> Okokokokok. Good point. I usually sell light (wands or scrolls)
> because it seems unnecessary. Lamps and lanterns are sort-of helpful,
> but gold is nice!
Gold is useful in the early game but its value drops as the
game progresses.
> I try to buy out shops, and I don't know another way
> to easily raise money.
Locate vaults and dig to them. Since vaults have guards
there is a simple trick to get the gold out of them without
fighting the guards for it. One each spell, potion and
scroll locate gold in the walls that can be excavated. Also
there are tricks to extract money from shop keepers. And
a percentage of orcs carry gold, yet another reason to kill
them.
> RyJ wrote:
>
> >fighting to level 14 the hard way is going to
> >take thousands of turns of scumming/grinding/whateveryouliketocallit.
>
> This may be the key to my failure. Between this and a later reply, I
> may know the answer.
There are more than one ways of gaining levels without
combat. Learn them all and use them all.
> >I think armour helps early game survivability better
>
> Interesting. There's a split decision on the armor issue.
There isn't any ambiguity that better armor helps. The
ambiguity is the cost that certain armor items have to
spell casting. Find armor items that do not interfere and
there's no ambiguity. The biggest ambiguity early on is
the good AC of mithril versus the no spell casting
interference of studded leather.
> Doug longlastname wrote:
>
> >I tend to name Sting for wielding once about XP=4.
>
> Also interesting point. I don't usually name Sting, but a quick
> WikiHack visit, and I am enlightened.
The staff is a better weapon in the very early game but
practice getting dagger up to Expert is so important it
is soon worth killing popcorn monsters with a wielded
dagger. It just takes a few levels before even the
wimpiest monsters count as popcorn.
> >For a wizard I might only enhance the dagger school in the
> >early game. No interest in bows or any other weapon
> >class. I'll only enhance a larger melee weapon if I get one
> >from sacrificing, and if I have a larger melee weapon from
> >sacrificing that means I have Magicbane. Once
> >Magicbane is available, wield it and don't unwield it except
> >to "x" to a larger artifact melee weapon like Stormbringer or
> >one of the artifact long swords. As soon as out of trouble
> >"x" back to Magicbane.
>
> Wild. I figured out the staff was probably the weakest weapon in the
> game just by common sense.
There's a spoiler that lists the order monsters use when they
have weapon choices. Quarterstaff is not low on the list.
It is an okay weapon for the early game so the reason against
spending skill slots on it isn't about it's early damage. It's
about quarterstaff weapons (the only one is the healer Quest
artifact and many will not wish for Quest artifacts), there
two handed nature (important in the late game not relevant
in the early game), and the limited resource of skill slots that
you will eventually want on spell schools.
> I thought it was worthwhile to grab a mace
> or axe, both of which seemed substantially more powerful until
> Magicbane. I also liked the fact that axes could be thrown.
Rocks can be thrown and are in nearly infinite supply. There
are long term issues that influence early weapon choices.
Some of these isses don't get learned until you play some
late games and hit limits imposed by early choices. Skill
slots are one of the most critical limited resources in the game.
> >...Then work on spells.
>
> Another shocker to me. I've been using force bolt on any powerful
> creature relative to my level (i.e. fox - exp 1/2, the first gnome I
> meet, gnome lords till exp 4/5ish, almost all dwarves, ants, etc.)
Until hungerless spell casting is available using attack spells
has a price higher than just energy points. Some wizards
do not start with hungerless casting.
> I use Magic Missile on nymphs to not break the mirror.
Force bolt has more effects than just breaking mirrors. Not all
wizards have magic missile.
If I started a wizard with hungerless casting and both force
bolt and magic missile I'd use a lot more spells. But Expert
at dagger does remain a priority. Daggers are a limited
resource but they do not depend on either hunger or energy.
> > your stack of "a dozen" elven daggers in your quiver
>
> How do you do this without getting Burdened?? You must stash much more
> than I do. Again, more staggering implications.
>
> >Have a small stash per level for recently found items.
>
> Uhhh. yeah. Whoops.
Exactly. On the other hand I do tend to shuttle my level
stash down once I've cleared a level. That involves a lot of
Burdened walking but at least it's in a cleared level.
As to daggers carried while not Burdened, daggers are a
priority for wizards throughout the game.
> James Of Tucson wrote:
>
> >Silver daggers are handy as well and I wish they weren't so rare.
>
> My favorite weapon in the game! I love the message from throwing a
> silver dagger at the werefoos! Awesome stuff.
Being so rare I've reached the vibrating square without any.
I may end up with a stack of them in addition to my "dozen"
highly enchanted elven daggers but I've never gotten enough
silver daggers to replace my stack of elven. Not even with
polypiling.
APLer
news:f668f13b-569f-467c...@o6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
> On Aug 18, 2:09 am, APLer <AP...@floor.tilde> wrote:
>> Red Bandit <redban...@gmail.com> wrote
>> innews:4be68dc0-8793-444e...@q35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com
>> : Armor
>> is armor. Keep what keeps you alive until you *know* you're
>> ok. Leather and mineral armor will show up eventually, the
>> point is to keep your AC as low as possible.
>
> That's generally true up to a point. Once your AC goes
> negative, I generally find it worthwhile to consider possible
> other benefits as well. (But only once your AC goes negative;
> before that, the less AC the better.)
>
Which is directly in line with my point. You apparently didn't read the
paragraph closely enough.
>> Studded leather a cloak, iron boots, no shield and a dwarven
>> helm you can remove for when you *do* use spells - you
>> generally can't gain advancement until you have 100 points
>> anyways - works well. You fooproof them the first chance you
>> get and then enchant them once you *know* their protection
>> level.
>
> Foo-proofing generally isn't worth the bother. And you know the
> protection of armor as soon as you put it on.
>
Far better to *see* the resultng plus so you don't foul up.
>> Same with the quarterstaff - it's the best non-artifact
>> weapon you can use short of a morningstar.
>
> Or a crysknife, or a battle axe, or a dwarvish mattock, or any
> of the swords, or a mace, or a flail, or any of the spears, or a
> javelin, or a trident, or a lance, or a unicorn horn. In fact,
> it's probably the worst two handed weapon there is. Multi-shot
> daggers also beat it, and are ranged.
>
Not as wielded weapons as I said.
Finally, how is it that you critisize several repliers, but don't know
enough to reply to the OP yourself?
James Kanze
> Red Bandit <redban...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> > I try to buy out shops, and I don't know another way
> > to easily raise money.
> Locate vaults and dig to them. Since vaults have guards
> there is a simple trick to get the gold out of them without
> fighting the guards for it.
The guards aren't very serious; most of the time, they aren't
there, so you can just dig in, pick up the gold, and walk out
with it. If a guard does show up, you do what he says, then dig
into the vault again.
[...]
> > >I think armour helps early game survivability better
> > Interesting. There's a split decision on the armor issue.
> There isn't any ambiguity that better armor helps. The
> ambiguity is the cost that certain armor items have to spell
> casting. Find armor items that do not interfere and there's
> no ambiguity. The biggest ambiguity early on is the good AC
> of mithril versus the no spell casting interference of studded
> leather.
Until you've got enough power to spell cast regularly (with
hungerless regeneration?), there's no real ambiguity.
> > >For a wizard I might only enhance the dagger school in the
> > >early game. No interest in bows or any other weapon class.
> > >I'll only enhance a larger melee weapon if I get one from
> > >sacrificing, and if I have a larger melee weapon from
> > >sacrificing that means I have Magicbane. Once Magicbane is
> > >available, wield it and don't unwield it except to "x" to a
> > >larger artifact melee weapon like Stormbringer or one of
> > >the artifact long swords. As soon as out of trouble "x"
> > >back to Magicbane.
> > Wild. I figured out the staff was probably the weakest
> > weapon in the game just by common sense.
> There's a spoiler that lists the order monsters use when they
> have weapon choices. Quarterstaff is not low on the list. It
> is an okay weapon for the early game so the reason against
> spending skill slots on it isn't about it's early damage.
> It's about quarterstaff weapons (the only one is the healer
> Quest artifact and many will not wish for Quest artifacts),
> there two handed nature (important in the late game not
> relevant in the early game), and the limited resource of skill
> slots that you will eventually want on spell schools.
Note that even if you use it, you don't have to up your skills
in it just because the possibility is offered. I'll generally
use it enough in the early game to be able to up my skill in it,
but I'll never actually do so.
> > I thought it was worthwhile to grab a mace or axe, both of
> > which seemed substantially more powerful until Magicbane. I
> > also liked the fact that axes could be thrown.
> Rocks can be thrown and are in nearly infinite supply. There
> are long term issues that influence early weapon choices.
> Some of these isses don't get learned until you play some late
> games and hit limits imposed by early choices. Skill slots
> are one of the most critical limited resources in the game.
Yes, but using a weapon doesn't mean that you have to up your
skills in it.
James Of Tucson
wrote:
> So enchanting it is always better as long as it's not
> rotted or burnt
Ok. I'll take your word for it on the numbers. Trouble is, this
info is going to make me start getting my stuff thoroughly foo'd just
so that I get the most value out of the foo-proofing scroll :-)
But in the long run isn't "burnt -> fooproof" and "fooproof first"
really a zero sum? (I don't presume to be able to prevent the cloak
from getting burned at all). Weighed against the time value of an
early AC point, of course. Hmm.
James Of Tucson
> Some of the rings self identify when they have + or - stats.
> Conflict can be identified in a few moves by reading
> messages. Pricing does help some.
Asidonhopo hits! --more--
I've put on =oC more than once inside a shop. Yes, cursed. Dumb, I
know.
> There are more than one ways of gaining levels without
> combat. Learn them all and use them all.
Well, a couple of them you'd pretty much have to intentionally avoid
leveling in order to take advantage.
> There's a spoiler that lists the order monsters use when they
> have weapon choices. Quarterstaff is not low on the list.
Hmm. So disenchant one and throw it to them? I couldn't find that
particular spoiler. I wonder if you can tip the odds -- here's a wand
of "Zap Yourself" ... and here's a weapon that can't touch me ...
etc.
> quarterstaff ... and the limited resource of skill slots that
I think the Wizard starts with a quarterstaff to lure you into wasting
a skill slot :-)
James Kanze
> On Aug 17, 5:11 pm, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > So enchanting it is always better as long as it's not
> > rotted or burnt
> Ok. I'll take your word for it on the numbers. Trouble is,
> this info is going to make me start getting my stuff
> thoroughly foo'd just so that I get the most value out of the
> foo-proofing scroll :-)
I think you missed the point. The worst corrosion can do is
reduce the basic protection provided by the armor; any
enchantment is impervious to corrosion. If the basic protection
is 0 (shirts, some cloaks), corrosion does no damage, and
there's no reason to foo-proof. If the basic protection is 1,
the most foo-proofing can help is 1, which is less than you
might get if you enchanted the armor with a blessed scroll.
Foo-proofing for such armor only makes sense if the armor is
already enchanted to the maximum. The only times foo-proofing
(rather than further enchanting) might be preferred is if the
armor has a basic protection of more than 1. And there aren't
that many of those to really consider---who wears plate mail?
Of the body armor, the usual choices are mithril, then dragon
scales---neither subject to any corrosion, so no point in
foo-proofing. (A wizard might consider foo-proofing studded
leather, until he got dragon scales, if he wanted to practice
magic.) For the rest, about the only armor you're likely to be
keeping long term that might merit foo-proofing is a robe or a
cloak of protection.
> But in the long run isn't "burnt -> fooproof" and "fooproof
> first" really a zero sum? (I don't presume to be able to
> prevent the cloak from getting burned at all). Weighed
> against the time value of an early AC point, of course.
If we start at the basic protection level, fooproofing first
leaves the total change permanently at 0; burnt, then
fooproofing has a short moment at -1 (only a turn or two, if you
have the scroll), the rest of the time at 0; and enchantment
raises 1; later corrosion may reduce the base level by 1, which
makes a total effect of 0.
Of course, if corrosion can have an effect of more than 1 (body
armor, etc.), then the numbers change. But at least for me, the
only corrodable armor this concerns are robes and cloaks of
protection. I've generally acquired mithril before the option
is available (or expect to get it soon enough afterwards that
using the scroll on my existing body armor would be a waste).
I'm not generally enchanting the iron shoes or the iron helmut,
and there are enough of them that I can easily change to a new
one if they are corroded. (In fact, it doesn't seem to rare for
me to find a highly enchanted orcish helm, and use that rather
than the iron helmut.)
Red Bandit
you.
Weapons: Screw the staff after getting a couple daggers. Naming Sting
is *huge* for elves. Get to expert. Get Magicbane.
Daggers are different than what I've been doing-- trying to find an
axe or mace, but keeping 2-4 daggers as backup for spells.
Armor: Get AC down with reasonable armor. Screw spellcasting fail
rates at first, just take off armor if needed. My own thought is to
throw armor at bad guys, which are stupid enough to put it on instead
of defending themselves. Enchant armor right away. Fire/rust-proofing
armor may or may not be worth it at first.
Gold: Steal from vaults. Buy protection.
Stash unidentified stuff. Find new ways to level up. Engrave e-word
more. Run away sooner. I know most of the instant "outs."
Any other good tips? Anything else I've missed?
Doug Freyburger
>
> Weapons: Screw the staff after getting a couple daggers. Naming Sting
> is *huge* for elves. Get to expert. Get Magicbane.
The screw-the-staff refers to enhancing its skill slot not
against using it as a backup emergency melee weapon.
Daggers are definitely to be fired constantly but early on,
but daggers don't do enough damage for me to use them
in emergency melee very early in the game. Throw
daggers to enhance skill once before switching to Sting
in most melee or some trade off like that. Once you have
Magicbane it still makes sense to carry Sting for throwing
until deeper in the dungeon but no other dagger is worth
wielding once you have Magicbane.
I treat the staff as my initial backup emergency melee
weapon. I'll never "want" to enhance staff. I may "need" to
enhance staff as an emergency action in some games.
Moving past the early half of the early game, I'll do more
discussion of options for the wizard's backup emergency
melee weapon. Some players stress "Don't Unwield
Magicbane" so they don't bother with a higher damage
alternate wielded weapon just in case. Clearly I'm not as
good as those players at staying out of trouble in the first
place. My very low ascension rate reflects that skill lack.
It can make sense to name Orcrist and switch to it as soon
as possible to replace the staff. Elven broadsword does
d6+d4/d6+1 damage as a one handed weapon compared to
quarterstaff doing d6/d6 damage as a two handed weapon
so the only ambigiuty in switching immediately is +/-
enchantments no matter naming it or not. But still view it
as an emergency backup melee weapon not as a
replacement for thrown daggers nor stop wielding Magicbane
almost constantly. Practice as a wizard does not help until
getting Stormbringer or Dragonbane as a gift, but elven
broadswords are readily available and they do good damage
so even a neutral wizard might consider Orcrist until a better
artifact comes available as a backup emergency melee
weapon.
I like to keep some powerful artifact weapon as my backup
emergency melee weapon so I often want to try for other
artifacts at least a few times. Whichever I pick I'll enhance it
to Basic and drop the staff or whatever else I'm using at that
point. For a chaotic Stormbringer is powerful enough that I
have done sacrfifest cycles targetting a +FoD because having
one in open inventory switches the wizard's crowning gift
to Stormbringer.
> Daggers are different than what I've been doing-- trying to find an
> axe or mace, but keeping 2-4 daggers as backup for spells.
Sure. A wizard might only bother picking up dagger class
weapons. Other than daggers I may only carry one worth
considering as the backup emergency melee weapon.
> Armor: Get AC down with reasonable armor. Screw spellcasting fail
> rates at first, just take off armor if needed. My own thought is to
> throw armor at bad guys, which are stupid enough to put it on instead
> of defending themselves. Enchant armor right away. Fire/rust-proofing
> armor may or may not be worth it at first.
Does a monster take a turn putting on armor? They don't
seem to so I haven't tried that strategy. I don't carry a lot
of armor items as a wizard except to shuttle them to an
altar for BUC testing before trying on but I often have a
couple in open inventory.