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[slashem] Advice on extraordinary summon storms?
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Janis Papanagnou
Aug 3, 2020, 7:06:57 AM8/3/20
to
My character entered the Plane of Air, and when passing the cloud I saw
four(!) hostile Archons, one close enough to start a summon storm. After
three or so turns the [visible] level appeared to be completely filled,
and moving was not possible any more. But the archons were not the worst
monsters, planetars and solars were guided in, also minotaurs, Olog-hai,
and similar. My ~300+ HPs quickly vanished, and a prayer helped me for
the moment. A couple of blessed full healing delayed what seemed to be
the unavoidable outcome of the situation. Some zaps of teleport made it
possible to advance at times, if only very slowly. The portal way too
far away. Somehow I managed to reach the portal with only few HPs left.
But I arrived at the Plane of Fire with three companions, two archons
and a planetar (or solar?). Three turns later I was dead.
I'd like to hear from the experienced Slashem players how they'd solve
such extreme situations. One high level summoner is already bad enough.
Four of them is really disturbing. And when solars and planetars enter
the scene I'm really clueless. Could I have done something in advance
to alleviate the risk?
Janis
four(!) hostile Archons, one close enough to start a summon storm. After
three or so turns the [visible] level appeared to be completely filled,
and moving was not possible any more. But the archons were not the worst
monsters, planetars and solars were guided in, also minotaurs, Olog-hai,
and similar. My ~300+ HPs quickly vanished, and a prayer helped me for
the moment. A couple of blessed full healing delayed what seemed to be
the unavoidable outcome of the situation. Some zaps of teleport made it
possible to advance at times, if only very slowly. The portal way too
far away. Somehow I managed to reach the portal with only few HPs left.
But I arrived at the Plane of Fire with three companions, two archons
and a planetar (or solar?). Three turns later I was dead.
I'd like to hear from the experienced Slashem players how they'd solve
such extreme situations. One high level summoner is already bad enough.
Four of them is really disturbing. And when solars and planetars enter
the scene I'm really clueless. Could I have done something in advance
to alleviate the risk?
Janis
wumpus
Aug 3, 2020, 3:58:35 PM8/3/20
to
Howdy Janis,
I haven't played in quite a while, as the Slash'EM for iPhone I used to use
hasn't worked since iOS 10.
On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 4:06:57 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> My character entered the Plane of Air, and when passing the cloud I saw
> four(!) hostile Archons,
Holy! You were just having one doozy of a day (to paraphrase Tucker & Dale
vs. Evil). That is remarkably bad luck. I've occasionally gotten single Archons,
Solars, or Planetars, but four!?!
By the endgame, I can usually handle a single Archon or better pretty handily,
though being surrounded by elementals while blind can be problematic. I tend
to stockpile wands of teleport (and death) for Astral, and they're my go to if I
don't have the werewithal to just fight my way through. Often, though, I have
a +5 submachine gun name Foobane and a few hundred rounds of +7 ammo,
which solves most problems, including Death, rather expediently.
Caught in a summon storm that large, though, I can only think of two real solutions.
Clearly you'll want to engrave the E-word (doesn't work in Air or Water!) to buy
time. Having lots of blessed potions of full healing or invulnerability similarly can
keep you afloat for a while. But to actually deal with the problem, you're going to
either have to deploy conflict or charm. If you can open up some space long enough
to reverse genocide, say, gugs (or if you're overconfident and have a big HP buffer,
giant shoggoths), and charm them (they're not very charm resistant), you can have
a good buffer. Charming Archons+ (or vampire mages) is pretty hopeless, but many,
if not all, of the other nasties will join your team readily. Otherwise, lets you and him
fight via conflict, which is suboptimal if you have big pets, but still better than fighting
everything at the same time.
Hope that helps,
Alex
I haven't played in quite a while, as the Slash'EM for iPhone I used to use
hasn't worked since iOS 10.
On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 4:06:57 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> My character entered the Plane of Air, and when passing the cloud I saw
> four(!) hostile Archons,
vs. Evil). That is remarkably bad luck. I've occasionally gotten single Archons,
Solars, or Planetars, but four!?!
though being surrounded by elementals while blind can be problematic. I tend
to stockpile wands of teleport (and death) for Astral, and they're my go to if I
don't have the werewithal to just fight my way through. Often, though, I have
a +5 submachine gun name Foobane and a few hundred rounds of +7 ammo,
which solves most problems, including Death, rather expediently.
Caught in a summon storm that large, though, I can only think of two real solutions.
Clearly you'll want to engrave the E-word (doesn't work in Air or Water!) to buy
time. Having lots of blessed potions of full healing or invulnerability similarly can
keep you afloat for a while. But to actually deal with the problem, you're going to
either have to deploy conflict or charm. If you can open up some space long enough
to reverse genocide, say, gugs (or if you're overconfident and have a big HP buffer,
giant shoggoths), and charm them (they're not very charm resistant), you can have
a good buffer. Charming Archons+ (or vampire mages) is pretty hopeless, but many,
if not all, of the other nasties will join your team readily. Otherwise, lets you and him
fight via conflict, which is suboptimal if you have big pets, but still better than fighting
everything at the same time.
Hope that helps,
Alex
Janis Papanagnou
Aug 3, 2020, 4:51:41 PM8/3/20
to
On 03.08.2020 21:58, wumpus wrote:
>> [ summoning storm at Astral with many archons, planetars, solars, etc. ]
appeared a lot faster than I could teleport them away.
I never cared much about the firearms, but my weapons (and armor) were
quite good (I ascended with much worse weapons/armor before):
Weapons
a - the blessed fireproof +7 Bat from Hell
## I had wielded the Bat from Hell but I switched shortly before my death
## to a cockatrice corpse, because that seemed the only chance to survive
## with my few HPs against that angelic triple that followed me to Fire.
E - a blessed rustproof +3 athame
Z - the blessed rustproof +7 Stormbringer (alternate weapon; not wielded)
Armor
A - a blessed +5 gray dragon scale mail (being worn)
B - an uncursed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
C - a cursed fireproof +5 cloak of displacement named fireproof (being worn)
G - a blessed rustproof +4 pair of gauntlets of power (being worn)
H - a blessed greased rustproof +4 helm of brilliance (being worn)
S - a cursed +3 shield of reflection (being worn)
T - a blessed +5 Hawaiian shirt (being worn)
> Caught in a summon storm that large, though, I can only think of two real solutions.
> Clearly you'll want to engrave the E-word (doesn't work in Air or Water!) to buy
> time. Having lots of blessed potions of full healing or invulnerability similarly can
> keep you afloat for a while. But to actually deal with the problem, you're going to
> either have to deploy conflict or charm.
Indeed I had also worn conflict - the ring got cursed, but I hope that
it worked anyway -, and I also forgot to mention that I had two scrolls
of taming that I read; indeed that taming helped to be able to proceed
to the portal by displacing my new pets. I didn't dare, though, to spend
turns to write some more taming. Maybe I should have done that, but the
threat came from the high-level angelic beings as you noted. Another
idea that I thought about was a confused taming to get a larger area of
friendly supporters; that would have probably made my way to the portal
faster if I could have displaced many squared of pets, not just the
adjacent ones. In retrospect I probably should have tried that.
> If you can open up some space long enough
> to reverse genocide, say, gugs (or if you're overconfident and have a big HP buffer,
> giant shoggoths), and charm them (they're not very charm resistant), you can have
> a good buffer.
I thought a moment about reverse genociding (but shoggoths didn't came
to my mind; I will remember that for another day), but as mentioned I
was frightened to spend turns on bag-management. Probably that's what I
could have prepared in advance, before entering the Planes. (Well, next
time.)
> Charming Archons+ (or vampire mages) is pretty hopeless, but many,
> if not all, of the other nasties will join your team readily.
About half of the adjacent monsters got tamed. Not enough, obviously.
> Otherwise, lets you and him
> fight via conflict, which is suboptimal if you have big pets, but still better than fighting
> everything at the same time.
>
> Hope that helps,
Yeah. Let's see how the next games evolve with the gained experience. :-)
Janis
>> [ summoning storm at Astral with many archons, planetars, solars, etc. ]
>
> By the endgame, I can usually handle a single Archon or better pretty handily,
> though being surrounded by elementals while blind can be problematic. I tend
> to stockpile wands of teleport (and death) for Astral, and they're my go to if I
> don't have the werewithal to just fight my way through. Often, though, I have
> a +5 submachine gun name Foobane and a few hundred rounds of +7 ammo,
> which solves most problems, including Death, rather expediently.
Yeah, I also had a couple wands of teleport, but the summoned hordes
> By the endgame, I can usually handle a single Archon or better pretty handily,
> though being surrounded by elementals while blind can be problematic. I tend
> to stockpile wands of teleport (and death) for Astral, and they're my go to if I
> don't have the werewithal to just fight my way through. Often, though, I have
> a +5 submachine gun name Foobane and a few hundred rounds of +7 ammo,
> which solves most problems, including Death, rather expediently.
appeared a lot faster than I could teleport them away.
I never cared much about the firearms, but my weapons (and armor) were
quite good (I ascended with much worse weapons/armor before):
Weapons
a - the blessed fireproof +7 Bat from Hell
## I had wielded the Bat from Hell but I switched shortly before my death
## to a cockatrice corpse, because that seemed the only chance to survive
## with my few HPs against that angelic triple that followed me to Fire.
E - a blessed rustproof +3 athame
Z - the blessed rustproof +7 Stormbringer (alternate weapon; not wielded)
Armor
A - a blessed +5 gray dragon scale mail (being worn)
B - an uncursed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
C - a cursed fireproof +5 cloak of displacement named fireproof (being worn)
G - a blessed rustproof +4 pair of gauntlets of power (being worn)
H - a blessed greased rustproof +4 helm of brilliance (being worn)
S - a cursed +3 shield of reflection (being worn)
T - a blessed +5 Hawaiian shirt (being worn)
> Caught in a summon storm that large, though, I can only think of two real solutions.
> Clearly you'll want to engrave the E-word (doesn't work in Air or Water!) to buy
> time. Having lots of blessed potions of full healing or invulnerability similarly can
> keep you afloat for a while. But to actually deal with the problem, you're going to
> either have to deploy conflict or charm.
it worked anyway -, and I also forgot to mention that I had two scrolls
of taming that I read; indeed that taming helped to be able to proceed
to the portal by displacing my new pets. I didn't dare, though, to spend
turns to write some more taming. Maybe I should have done that, but the
threat came from the high-level angelic beings as you noted. Another
idea that I thought about was a confused taming to get a larger area of
friendly supporters; that would have probably made my way to the portal
faster if I could have displaced many squared of pets, not just the
adjacent ones. In retrospect I probably should have tried that.
> If you can open up some space long enough
> to reverse genocide, say, gugs (or if you're overconfident and have a big HP buffer,
> giant shoggoths), and charm them (they're not very charm resistant), you can have
> a good buffer.
to my mind; I will remember that for another day), but as mentioned I
was frightened to spend turns on bag-management. Probably that's what I
could have prepared in advance, before entering the Planes. (Well, next
time.)
> Charming Archons+ (or vampire mages) is pretty hopeless, but many,
> if not all, of the other nasties will join your team readily.
> Otherwise, lets you and him
> fight via conflict, which is suboptimal if you have big pets, but still better than fighting
> everything at the same time.
>
> Hope that helps,
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
Mar 22, 2021, 3:12:27 PM3/22/21
to
On 03.08.2020 13:06, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> My character entered the Plane of Air, and when passing the cloud I saw
> four(!) hostile Archons, one close enough to start a summon storm. After
> three or so turns the [visible] level appeared to be completely filled,
> and moving was not possible any more. But the archons were not the worst
> monsters, planetars and solars were guided in, also minotaurs, Olog-hai,
> and similar. [ etc. etc. etc. ] Three turns later I was dead.
> My character entered the Plane of Air, and when passing the cloud I saw
> four(!) hostile Archons, one close enough to start a summon storm. After
> three or so turns the [visible] level appeared to be completely filled,
> and moving was not possible any more. But the archons were not the worst
> monsters, planetars and solars were guided in, also minotaurs, Olog-hai,
>
> I'd like to hear from the experienced Slashem players how they'd solve
> such extreme situations. One high level summoner is already bad enough.
> Four of them is really disturbing. And when solars and planetars enter
> the scene I'm really clueless. Could I have done something in advance
> to alleviate the risk?
Contributing an answer to my own question. Just had a Bar-Elf-Neu going.
> I'd like to hear from the experienced Slashem players how they'd solve
> such extreme situations. One high level summoner is already bad enough.
> Four of them is really disturbing. And when solars and planetars enter
> the scene I'm really clueless. Could I have done something in advance
> to alleviate the risk?
Entered the Plane of Air, and it looked not too bad. Though either one
of the first critters I tackled or some summoner started again such a
storm. I certainly had better stats this time (HP:684(684), AC:-47) and
carried 4 blessed health-stones in open inventory. (My weapon was only
the +6 Vorpal Blade.) I cannot recall the exact order but the crucial
part of the solution was a wish for a chickatrice corpse to stone all
the 'A' and other beasts. A ring of conflict (worn when two 'c' got
summoned adjacent) alleviated the situation as well. And a scroll of
taming or two wasn't bad either. When monster density decreased I took
the first opportunity to move towards the border of the screen; five
monsters adjacent is better than eight. That worked quite well but I
had a few problems; to get the wish I [stupidly] used a magic lamp
(to get rid of some weight) instead of a wand of wishing, and I also
wasn't sure whether the djinni needs to be created on an adjacent free
square to provide the wish - a bit difficult when residing in the mid
of a summoning storm. Another problem was that I could not use the
c-corpse against two adjacent basilisks, and constant weapon switches
were not part of a good timing tactics. So I decided to ignore the
basilisks, hoping for my armor to prevent their deadly attacks. Some
time and a few newly manufactured statues later I managed to leave the
level to reach the Plane if Fire where another major angelic being
greeted me just the moment when my c-corpse decayed. I teleported that
critter away and hurried across the level to reach the next portal.
The Plane of Water went smoothly. But Astral again looked like a tough
challenge. The situation made it necessary to head for the Pestilence
path, a killed cockatrice corpse again supporting my quick advancement.
And luckily the end of that path even led me to the altar of my god.
Janis
klaus kassner
Mar 23, 2021, 5:56:51 AM3/23/21
to
Am 22.03.21 um 20:12 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
that made it to the Planes in slash'em also ascended. It is definitely
easier with lawfuls, who in my case usually have a Planetar or Solar pet
(the former from an altar, the latter from a wished-for figurine). With
neutrals and chaotics, the ring of conflict is very helpful.
One major difference in our play style will be that I always get a
decent firearm and a sufficient number (about 300) bullets that are at
least enchanted to +4. That allows you to take out a Solar from a
distance, presumably they never did much summoning for me because of
this. Also, I essentially always can avoid that one of the Riders ever
gets to a square adjacent to me. With an assault rifle, you almost never
take more than two rounds to take them out.
> On 03.08.2020 13:06, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> My character entered the Plane of Air, and when passing the cloud I saw
>> four(!) hostile Archons, one close enough to start a summon storm. After
>> three or so turns the [visible] level appeared to be completely filled,
>> and moving was not possible any more. But the archons were not the worst
>> monsters, planetars and solars were guided in, also minotaurs, Olog-hai,
>> and similar. [ etc. etc. etc. ] Three turns later I was dead.
>>
>> I'd like to hear from the experienced Slashem players how they'd solve
>> such extreme situations. One high level summoner is already bad enough.
>> Four of them is really disturbing. And when solars and planetars enter
>> the scene I'm really clueless. Could I have done something in advance
>> to alleviate the risk?
I never had enormous problems in the Planes, meaning that all characters
>> My character entered the Plane of Air, and when passing the cloud I saw
>> four(!) hostile Archons, one close enough to start a summon storm. After
>> three or so turns the [visible] level appeared to be completely filled,
>> and moving was not possible any more. But the archons were not the worst
>> monsters, planetars and solars were guided in, also minotaurs, Olog-hai,
>> and similar. [ etc. etc. etc. ] Three turns later I was dead.
>>
>> I'd like to hear from the experienced Slashem players how they'd solve
>> such extreme situations. One high level summoner is already bad enough.
>> Four of them is really disturbing. And when solars and planetars enter
>> the scene I'm really clueless. Could I have done something in advance
>> to alleviate the risk?
that made it to the Planes in slash'em also ascended. It is definitely
easier with lawfuls, who in my case usually have a Planetar or Solar pet
(the former from an altar, the latter from a wished-for figurine). With
neutrals and chaotics, the ring of conflict is very helpful.
One major difference in our play style will be that I always get a
decent firearm and a sufficient number (about 300) bullets that are at
least enchanted to +4. That allows you to take out a Solar from a
distance, presumably they never did much summoning for me because of
this. Also, I essentially always can avoid that one of the Riders ever
gets to a square adjacent to me. With an assault rifle, you almost never
take more than two rounds to take them out.
Janis Papanagnou
Mar 23, 2021, 7:39:06 AM3/23/21
to
On 23.03.2021 10:53, klaus kassner wrote:
>
> I never had enormous problems in the Planes, meaning that all characters
> that made it to the Planes in slash'em also ascended. It is definitely
> easier with lawfuls, who in my case usually have a Planetar or Solar pet
> (the former from an altar, the latter from a wished-for figurine). With
> neutrals and chaotics, the ring of conflict is very helpful.
In case of the summoning storms that I had in the past, conflict
>
> I never had enormous problems in the Planes, meaning that all characters
> that made it to the Planes in slash'em also ascended. It is definitely
> easier with lawfuls, who in my case usually have a Planetar or Solar pet
> (the former from an altar, the latter from a wished-for figurine). With
> neutrals and chaotics, the ring of conflict is very helpful.
alone (while certainly helpful) didn't save me.
> One major difference in our play style will be that I always get a
> decent firearm and a sufficient number (about 300) bullets that are at
> least enchanted to +4. That allows you to take out a Solar from a
> distance, presumably they never did much summoning for me because of
> this.
with that approach; ranged attacks need a straight line to the
target, which is usually a problem on the Plane of Air. And the
summonings are done by the critters from quite some distance.
> Also, I essentially always can avoid that one of the Riders ever
> gets to a square adjacent to me. With an assault rifle, you almost never
> take more than two rounds to take them out.
once and it was while I was helples. My deaths on the Planes:
Earth Wiz Elf Mal Neu drowned in a pool of water
Air Cav Dwa Mal Law killed by a giant shoggoth
Earth Kni Hum Mal Law drowned in a pool of water
Astral Sam Hum Mal Law killed by Famine, while helples
Fire Mon Hum Mal Cha killed by an Archon
Air Und Dop Mal Cha killed by a Planetar
Air Tou Hum Mal Neu killed by a monadic deva
The pool incident was from ignorance, the giant shoggoth is a
pain and since then typically gets genocided with all the 'P'
as soon as I see one. All the 'A' incidents are a persistent
problem, though.
Janis
Klaus Kassner
Mar 24, 2021, 3:43:40 PM3/24/21
to
Am 23.03.2021 um 12:39 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
> On 23.03.2021 10:53, klaus kassner wrote:
>>
>> I never had enormous problems in the Planes, meaning that all characters
>> that made it to the Planes in slash'em also ascended. It is definitely
>> easier with lawfuls, who in my case usually have a Planetar or Solar pet
>> (the former from an altar, the latter from a wished-for figurine). With
>> neutrals and chaotics, the ring of conflict is very helpful.
>
> In case of the summoning storms that I had in the past, conflict
> alone (while certainly helpful) didn't save me.
>
>> One major difference in our play style will be that I always get a
>> decent firearm and a sufficient number (about 300) bullets that are at
>> least enchanted to +4. That allows you to take out a Solar from a
>> distance, presumably they never did much summoning for me because of
>> this.
>
> Good if it works for you. I seem to have generally two problems
> with that approach; ranged attacks need a straight line to the
> target, which is usually a problem on the Plane of Air.
In any case, you should fly, not levitate, when shooting a gun. But to
> On 23.03.2021 10:53, klaus kassner wrote:
>>
>> I never had enormous problems in the Planes, meaning that all characters
>> that made it to the Planes in slash'em also ascended. It is definitely
>> easier with lawfuls, who in my case usually have a Planetar or Solar pet
>> (the former from an altar, the latter from a wished-for figurine). With
>> neutrals and chaotics, the ring of conflict is very helpful.
>
> In case of the summoning storms that I had in the past, conflict
> alone (while certainly helpful) didn't save me.
>
>> One major difference in our play style will be that I always get a
>> decent firearm and a sufficient number (about 300) bullets that are at
>> least enchanted to +4. That allows you to take out a Solar from a
>> distance, presumably they never did much summoning for me because of
>> this.
>
> Good if it works for you. I seem to have generally two problems
> with that approach; ranged attacks need a straight line to the
> target, which is usually a problem on the Plane of Air.
get into a straight line with the critter should not be that big a
problem. I think the Plane of Air is not as full in slash'em as in NH 3.6.
> And the
> summonings are done by the critters from quite some distance.
Actually, I don't know that. I just never had these huge summoning
storms, except once on the Plane of Fire. And there I think I did not
leave my hit point comfort zone, due to conflict.
While I never tried the following, because it was not necessary, putting
on the ring of conflict and breaking a wand of teleport when hit points
are getting low might be a good strategy. Probably, the fact that the
monsters will fight each other and not close back in immediately, leaves
time enough for quaffing a potion of full healing. Of course, the main
target should then always be the summoner.
Klaus Kassner
Mar 24, 2021, 3:45:26 PM3/24/21
to
Am 23.03.2021 um 12:39 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
always hit it.
Janis Papanagnou
Mar 24, 2021, 8:37:35 PM3/24/21
to
On 24.03.2021 20:43, Klaus Kassner wrote:
> Am 23.03.2021 um 12:39 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
>
> In any case, you should fly, not levitate, when shooting a gun.
Right, and flying is also generally my preferred way of moving.
> Am 23.03.2021 um 12:39 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
>
> In any case, you should fly, not levitate, when shooting a gun.
> But to
> get into a straight line with the critter should not be that big a
> problem. I think the Plane of Air is not as full in slash'em as in NH 3.6.
the moment when the first crowd is summoned around you, then it
gets nasty and very problematic in my experience.
>> And the
>> summonings are done by the critters from quite some distance.
> Actually, I don't know that. I just never had these huge summoning
> storms, except once on the Plane of Fire.
> While I never tried the following, because it was not necessary, putting
> on the ring of conflict and breaking a wand of teleport when hit points
> are getting low might be a good strategy.
There are a couple problems. One is that you only relocate the
first row of monsters away, and on the next turn the second row
is already adjacent. And sadly, the summonings also continue very
quickly. Once you have more than one summoner nearby you observe
an exponential growth; the level is quickly filled. And in parallel
the monsters also hit you, some of them very hard. (Some drum or
horn might help to scare the monsters.)
> Probably, the fact that the
> monsters will fight each other and not close back in immediately, leaves
> time enough for quaffing a potion of full healing. Of course, the main
> target should then always be the summoner.
summoning incident I had to quaff all my full healing, but to no
avail; the damage done to me was too huge. The other problem is that
"the" summoner (i.e. the assumption of a single one) doesn't hold
long, as already mentioned above. But of course any summoner should
be taken down first and as soon as possible, without delay.
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
Mar 24, 2021, 8:50:08 PM3/24/21
to
On 24.03.2021 20:45, Klaus Kassner wrote:
> Am 23.03.2021 um 12:39 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
>> Air Cav Dwa Mal Law killed by a giant shoggoth
>>
>> [...], the giant shoggoth is a
> Am 23.03.2021 um 12:39 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
>> Air Cav Dwa Mal Law killed by a giant shoggoth
>>
>> pain and since then typically gets genocided with all the 'P'
>> as soon as I see one. [...]
>
> The shoggoth is bad, but once it swallows you, a wand of death should
> always hit it.
Oh, okay. With the Cthulhu background in mind I wouldn't have thought
> The shoggoth is bad, but once it swallows you, a wand of death should
> always hit it.
that death would work on them, but I may have confused shoggoths with
Yog-Sothoth.
Janis
Klaus Kassner
Mar 25, 2021, 10:54:21 AM3/25/21
to
you in one turn. They are doing quite some damage (although the few
times one swallowed me I was mostly annoyed by the damage done to my
armor and items).
Janis Papanagnou
May 16, 2021, 2:43:17 PM5/16/21
to
On 03.08.2020 13:06, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> [ Angelic beings' summoning storms on Plane of Air ]
>
> I'd like to hear from the experienced Slashem players how they'd solve
> such extreme situations. One high level summoner is already bad enough.
> Four of them is really disturbing. And when solars and planetars enter
> the scene I'm really clueless. Could I have done something in advance
> to alleviate the risk?
Current game, a neutral elven ranger. Had throughout the game a couple
> I'd like to hear from the experienced Slashem players how they'd solve
> such extreme situations. One high level summoner is already bad enough.
> Four of them is really disturbing. And when solars and planetars enter
> the scene I'm really clueless. Could I have done something in advance
> to alleviate the risk?
appearances of single 'A's from the major species of angelic beings.
The good thing was that I was able to work around any direct encounter.
But, again, I feared for the Plane of Air, and, as expected the portal
was diagonally at the far end of the map and titans and angelic beings
visible. Had been prepared, wished for a chickatrice corpse before I
entered Air. It was tough, nonetheless; between getting engulfed and
the need to kill these monsters (air elementals, vortices, etc.) and
stone the stonable creatures I had to constantly switch between weapon
and corpse. Eventually I got rid of all nearby summoner-threats and
cleared a narrow path to finally reach the portal. During that process
my HP:723 melted down to something like HP:70. But okay, I was alive.
On Astral I wanted to avoid two Archons and took the path to Pestilence.
Wands of death and teleport did a fairly good job and I reached that
altar without too many wounds. I had my focus on some helm of opposite
alignment management (constantly uncursing and re-wearing) until I got
lawful as the altar was, while an adjacent player character drained my
live from XL:30 to 25, before I noticed. Restored my level to XL:28,
offered the amulet, and was bestowed with the number one highscore in
my local slashem record file.
Janis
Pat Rankin
May 16, 2021, 6:12:11 PM5/16/21
to
Subject was "Re: [slashem] Advice on extraordinary summon storms?"
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 11:43:17 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> [...] I had my focus on some helm of opposite alignment
Slash'EM is based on nethack 3.4.3, where that worked. However,
it no longer works in nethack 3.6.x. If you're lawful and put on a
helm of opposite alignment you'll become chaotic and vice versa,
but if you're neutral any particular helm will either always change
you to lawful or always change you to chaotic. So you'd need at
least two, maybe more, to be prepared to switch at either one of
the wrong high altars. (If you carry them with you, you can test
them in advance, but wishing for one on the spot won't be reliable.
Using two consecutive wishes will be though, provided no other
objects get created--or split off from stacks--in between, either by
you or by monster activity or by newly created monsters' initial
inventory.)
Holy water and remove curse work the same, but prayer no longer
uncurses a worn helm of opposite alignment. The current god isn't
going to make it easier to switch to a rival one by helping you take
off the helm. (Anywhere in the dungeon, not just on Astral level.)
> was bestowed with the number one highscore in
> my local slashem record file.
In 3.6.x you also get a lower final score if you ascend with different
alignment than you started with. Normal ascension yields 2x points,
the same as in older versions, but using helm of opposite alignment
to temporarily get back to your original alignment after undergoing
alignment conversion at some point yields 1.5x points, and having
different alignment due to either conversion or helm or both doesn't
get any ascension bonus so yields 1x points. Not many players who
manage to ascend care but in this case it might have mattered.
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 11:43:17 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> [...] I had my focus on some helm of opposite alignment
> management (constantly uncursing and re-wearing) until I got
> lawful as the altar was, [...]
Slash'EM is based on nethack 3.4.3, where that worked. However,
it no longer works in nethack 3.6.x. If you're lawful and put on a
helm of opposite alignment you'll become chaotic and vice versa,
but if you're neutral any particular helm will either always change
you to lawful or always change you to chaotic. So you'd need at
least two, maybe more, to be prepared to switch at either one of
the wrong high altars. (If you carry them with you, you can test
them in advance, but wishing for one on the spot won't be reliable.
Using two consecutive wishes will be though, provided no other
objects get created--or split off from stacks--in between, either by
you or by monster activity or by newly created monsters' initial
inventory.)
Holy water and remove curse work the same, but prayer no longer
uncurses a worn helm of opposite alignment. The current god isn't
going to make it easier to switch to a rival one by helping you take
off the helm. (Anywhere in the dungeon, not just on Astral level.)
> was bestowed with the number one highscore in
> my local slashem record file.
alignment than you started with. Normal ascension yields 2x points,
the same as in older versions, but using helm of opposite alignment
to temporarily get back to your original alignment after undergoing
alignment conversion at some point yields 1.5x points, and having
different alignment due to either conversion or helm or both doesn't
get any ascension bonus so yields 1x points. Not many players who
manage to ascend care but in this case it might have mattered.
Janis Papanagnou
May 16, 2021, 8:07:45 PM5/16/21
to
On 17.05.2021 00:12, Pat Rankin wrote:
>
>> was bestowed with the number one highscore in
>> my local slashem record file.
>
> In 3.6.x you also get a lower final score if you ascend with different
> alignment than you started with. Normal ascension yields 2x points,
> the same as in older versions, but using helm of opposite alignment
> to temporarily get back to your original alignment after undergoing
> alignment conversion at some point yields 1.5x points, and having
> different alignment due to either conversion or helm or both doesn't
> get any ascension bonus so yields 1x points. Not many players who
> manage to ascend care but in this case it might have mattered.
Indeed, score doesn't really matter. That's why I'm a bit astonished
>
>> was bestowed with the number one highscore in
>> my local slashem record file.
>
> In 3.6.x you also get a lower final score if you ascend with different
> alignment than you started with. Normal ascension yields 2x points,
> the same as in older versions, but using helm of opposite alignment
> to temporarily get back to your original alignment after undergoing
> alignment conversion at some point yields 1.5x points, and having
> different alignment due to either conversion or helm or both doesn't
> get any ascension bonus so yields 1x points. Not many players who
> manage to ascend care but in this case it might have mattered.
to hear how many effort had been put into the score polishing in the
newer Nethack versions. There was (IMO) certainly other stuff that
needed more attention.
I never had a closer look at the actual score computation algorithm;
my impression was that carrying tons of gems or gold would help, and
many monster kills. This time I had 5500+ monsters on my kill list -
in Nethack I had typically around 3200 and in Slashem it's typically
around 4200 monsters -, and quite some dangerous 'A's amongst them
3 Solars, 2 Planetars, 5 Archons, an astral deva,
3 crystal golems, a steel golem, a sapphire golem,
Demogorgon, Asmodeus, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Juiblex,
Pestilence, Vecna, The Wizard of Yendor (thrice),
Shelob, Girtab, an arch-lich, 3 vorpal jabberwocks,
a vampire mage, ...
I mean killing those beasts is certainly an achievement, even if
some of these species can be petrified, but the points are quickly
made (if you are sufficiently prepared; still very dangerous).
Janis
Pat Rankin
May 17, 2021, 2:04:46 AM5/17/21
to
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 5:07:45 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> On 17.05.2021 00:12, Pat Rankin wrote:
>> In 3.6.x you also get a lower final score if you ascend with different
>> alignment than you started with. [2x, 1.5x, or 1x points]
> On 17.05.2021 00:12, Pat Rankin wrote:
>> In 3.6.x you also get a lower final score if you ascend with different
>
> Indeed, score doesn't really matter. That's why I'm a bit astonished
> to hear how many effort had been put into the score polishing in the
> newer Nethack versions.
It effectively changed
> Indeed, score doesn't really matter. That's why I'm a bit astonished
> to hear how many effort had been put into the score polishing in the
> newer Nethack versions.
if (ascended) {
add(points, points) /* doubling the points value */
}
to
if (ascended and current_alignment == original_alignment) {
tmp = (base_alignment == original_alignment) ? points : points/2;
add(points, tmp)
}
That isn't the exact code but that does accurately reflect the
complexity of this particular change, one that was made 14 years
ago according to the commit logs. [current_alignment is what
is shown on the status lines; base_alignment will be the same as
that unless you're wearing a helm of opposite alignment.]
> There was (IMO) certainly other stuff that needed more attention.
recover the Amulet for your patron deity. Acquiring it and lugging
it to the Astral Plane, then offering it to a rival deity should count
as loss rather than a win. The reduced or omitted score bonus is
just a less drastic way to emphasize that point.
> I never had a closer look at the actual score computation algorithm;
or quit then the depth you made it into the dungeon is also a
significant factor. Gold, gems, and artifacts (plus invocation tools
even though they aren't artifacts) add to the score, but not by very
much compared to monsters. For ascension or escape from the
dungeon, adjacent pets also add a small amount.
Janis Papanagnou
May 17, 2021, 7:28:02 AM5/17/21
to
On 17.05.2021 08:04, Pat Rankin wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 5:07:45 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
>> On 17.05.2021 00:12, Pat Rankin wrote:
>>> In 3.6.x you also get a lower final score if you ascend with different
>>> alignment than you started with. [2x, 1.5x, or 1x points]
>>
>> Indeed, score doesn't really matter. That's why I'm a bit astonished
>> to hear how many effort had been put into the score polishing in the
>> newer Nethack versions.
>
> It effectively changed
> if (ascended) {
> add(points, points) /* doubling the points value */
> }
> to
> if (ascended and current_alignment == original_alignment) {
> tmp = (base_alignment == original_alignment) ? points : points/2;
> add(points, tmp)
> }
> That isn't the exact code but that does accurately reflect the
> complexity of this particular change, one that was made 14 years
> ago according to the commit logs. [current_alignment is what
> is shown on the status lines; base_alignment will be the same as
> that unless you're wearing a helm of opposite alignment.]
The point was not meant as "many lines of code" but *unnecessary*
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 5:07:45 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
>> On 17.05.2021 00:12, Pat Rankin wrote:
>>> In 3.6.x you also get a lower final score if you ascend with different
>>> alignment than you started with. [2x, 1.5x, or 1x points]
>>
>> Indeed, score doesn't really matter. That's why I'm a bit astonished
>> to hear how many effort had been put into the score polishing in the
>> newer Nethack versions.
>
> It effectively changed
> if (ascended) {
> add(points, points) /* doubling the points value */
> }
> to
> if (ascended and current_alignment == original_alignment) {
> tmp = (base_alignment == original_alignment) ? points : points/2;
> add(points, tmp)
> }
> That isn't the exact code but that does accurately reflect the
> complexity of this particular change, one that was made 14 years
> ago according to the commit logs. [current_alignment is what
> is shown on the status lines; base_alignment will be the same as
> that unless you're wearing a helm of opposite alignment.]
complexity, and why in the first place the designers focused on a
detail like that. But don't get me wrong; it's not my business to
question a Devteam's member's design decision. As said, there are
certainly many much more important issues to focus on, and I have
no intention to stress this irrelevant one.
>> There was (IMO) certainly other stuff that needed more attention.
>
> The game's plot, such as it is, is that you're on a mission to
> recover the Amulet for your patron deity. Acquiring it and lugging
> it to the Astral Plane, then offering it to a rival deity should count
> as loss rather than a win. The reduced or omitted score bonus is
> just a less drastic way to emphasize that point.
thousands of creatures isn't particularly on the official agenda[*] -
and this contributes most to win score?!
And the "patron deity" is only mentioned with the ^X command; there
seems to be no mention that it's (score-wise or else) bad to convert.
It's probably a safer argument to say that the plot is artificially
woven around a game only loosely coupled. Incidentally I observed
that the introductory text in the NH-Guidebook is in that respect
quite identical to the Rogue-Guidebook, not much has changed here,
but the game - and I think all the pantheon things - are newer (or
am I misremembering?).
[*] At least the Guidebook speaks about gathering treasure, getting
the Amulet, and escaping (not offering) with it.
>
>> I never had a closer look at the actual score computation algorithm;
>
> Killing monsters yields the most points by far. If you die, escape,
> or quit then the depth you made it into the dungeon is also a
> significant factor. Gold, gems, and artifacts (plus invocation tools
> even though they aren't artifacts) add to the score, but not by very
> much compared to monsters. For ascension or escape from the
> dungeon, adjacent pets also add a small amount.
score with the amount and severity of the killed monsters.
Thanks.
Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
May 17, 2021, 11:54:30 AM5/17/21
to
On Sun, 16 May 2021 23:04:44 -0700 (PDT), Pat Rankin wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 5:07:45 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
>> On 17.05.2021 00:12, Pat Rankin wrote:
>>> In 3.6.x you also get a lower final score if you ascend with different
>>> alignment than you started with. [2x, 1.5x, or 1x points]
[...]
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 5:07:45 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
>> On 17.05.2021 00:12, Pat Rankin wrote:
>>> In 3.6.x you also get a lower final score if you ascend with different
>>> alignment than you started with. [2x, 1.5x, or 1x points]
>> There was (IMO) certainly other stuff that needed more attention.
>
> The game's plot, such as it is, is that you're on a mission to
> recover the Amulet for your patron deity. Acquiring it and lugging
> it to the Astral Plane, then offering it to a rival deity should count
> as loss rather than a win. The reduced or omitted score bonus is
> just a less drastic way to emphasize that point.
When the helm of opposite alignment was first introduced into the game,
>
> The game's plot, such as it is, is that you're on a mission to
> recover the Amulet for your patron deity. Acquiring it and lugging
> it to the Astral Plane, then offering it to a rival deity should count
> as loss rather than a win. The reduced or omitted score bonus is
> just a less drastic way to emphasize that point.
I regarded it as a solely detrimental item (like dunce cap). Without
being spoilered (much later) I never would have expected (or even have
tried) to use it to offer the AoY to the "wrong" deity. So, severe
punishment in score is the least, what (IMHO) should happen in such a
case.
BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
Pat Rankin
May 17, 2021, 2:56:48 PM5/17/21
to
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 4:28:02 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
[...]
[...]
> And the "patron deity" is only mentioned with the ^X command; there
> seems to be no mention that it's (score-wise or else) bad to convert.
Your run-time config file has the 'legacy' option toggled off.
> seems to be no mention that it's (score-wise or else) bad to convert.
Toggle it back on and start a new game, or start one with
NETHACKOPTIONS='@/dev/null' nethack
to force use of an empty config file. (You can't change legacy
with the 'O' command because by the time you can execute
that, it's too late.)
That introduction states that you have been chosen to obtain
the Amulet for <deity>. Not just chosen, but "heralded from
birth to be the instrument of <deity>."
Janis Papanagnou
May 18, 2021, 8:32:38 AM5/18/21
to
On 17.05.2021 20:56, Pat Rankin wrote:
> On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 4:28:02 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> [...]
>> And the "patron deity" is only mentioned with the ^X command; there
>> seems to be no mention that it's (score-wise or else) bad to convert.
>
> Your run-time config file has the 'legacy' option toggled off.
Of course.
> On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 4:28:02 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> [...]
>> And the "patron deity" is only mentioned with the ^X command; there
>> seems to be no mention that it's (score-wise or else) bad to convert.
>
> Your run-time config file has the 'legacy' option toggled off.
It's probably a good idea to put all relevant information into the
Guidebook (as opposed to an optional display feature).
(Not that I think that score would be relevant, but if "correct"
behavior shall be fostered that would be helpful. Same with other
related information, like killing monsters as goal since it's a
primary source of score. Of course then there's also other changes
necessary; pacifism would not be a conduct any more, I suppose.)
Maybe it's time to write up a new 'code of conduct' sort of thing
that reflects the actual design mindset. The Guidebook is in my
opinion the right place to lay out all the meta-information, but
it seems to be outdated if I am thinking about the implications
of the mentioned facts and intentions.
Janis
Benjamin Heiligenbrunner
May 18, 2021, 8:56:55 AM5/18/21
to
Janis Papanagnou — 18.05.21 14:32:
trigger an alternative calculation / a huge bonus. Then the pacifist
conduct would make sense again in that respect… I wouldn't take it out
of the game, since it does add to variety.
Benjamin
--
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires.
Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-- Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles
Benjamin Heiligenbrunner
May 18, 2021, 8:58:49 AM5/18/21
to
[ Sorry for my newsreader misbehaving — trying again… ]
Janis Papanagnou — 18.05.21 14:32:
Janis Papanagnou
May 18, 2021, 9:31:06 AM5/18/21
to
On 18.05.2021 14:58, Benjamin Heiligenbrunner wrote:
>
> Hmm, killing none (or only very few creatures, by accident) _could_
> trigger an alternative calculation / a huge bonus. Then the pacifist
> conduct would make sense again in that respect… I wouldn't take it out
> of the game, since it does add to variety.
Oh, that was not what I suggested. I was merely pointing out that
>
> Hmm, killing none (or only very few creatures, by accident) _could_
> trigger an alternative calculation / a huge bonus. Then the pacifist
> conduct would make sense again in that respect… I wouldn't take it out
> of the game, since it does add to variety.
it may be time for an 'code of conduct' and that it might require a
refactoring of the documentation and/or code to create a coherent
game. At the moment we seem to have a mixture of anachronistic or
historic to undocumented or only implicit hinted designs, some may
be in the head of one developer/designer but it's unclear whether
that's common sense amongst the Devteam; if it is, it should be
quite simple to write it down, and reflect that in the game, of
course making adjustments where necessary. (Often only documents
are adjusted to avoid code changes. That's what I meant upthread
by the "plot woven around game".) The good thing would be that
we'd also get a clearer view about what behavior is deprecated; I
recall someone saying here that traveling burdened is punished by
the game because you hurt yourself when descending stairs, thus
it is the intention of the designers that players don't do that.
(Along that line was the argument of the poster.) I consider that
only as game mechanics, not as [by designer] deprecated behavior.
Of course we could also just play and enjoy the game.[*]
Janis
[*] As opposed to discussing whether there should be a score penalty
when wearing a helm of opposite alignment. Here the more interesting
thing is anyway the game mechanics; e.g. you instantly lose all divine
protection in a very hostile area. (Why should I care about score?)
Less AC, necessary spare time for wardrobe management; that are the
decisions to make, the things that tactically matter at that stage!
Pat Rankin
May 18, 2021, 5:26:08 PM5/18/21
to
On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 6:31:06 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> (Why should I care about score?)
No one said you should. You were the one who stated that
> (Why should I care about score?)
your score made #1 on the local score file after using a helm
of opposite alignment as a shortcut to avoid going to a second
and perhaps even third high altar. I pointed out that it would
have been only half as many points if you were running an up
to date version of nethack rather than a decade-and-a-half or
so old version of slash'em. That could easily have resulted in
a score that wouldn't have become #1. Even if you don't care
about score, somebody else might.
As for rewriting the Guidebook, be sure to let everybody know
when you've finished doing that.
Klaus Kassner
May 22, 2021, 9:22:49 AM5/22/21
to
Am 18.05.2021 um 15:31 schrieb Janis Papanagnou:
(Why should I care about score?)
Yes, in a game where you can lose and still have a higher score than in
(Why should I care about score?)
another instance of the game where you won, score is not a major
consideration... It just serves to sort the entries in the record file.
Janis Papanagnou
May 23, 2021, 5:32:31 AM5/23/21
to
On 18.05.2021 23:26, Pat Rankin wrote:
>
> As for rewriting the Guidebook, be sure to let everybody know
> when you've finished doing that.
Not sure why you suggest that. I am certainly not the right person
>
> As for rewriting the Guidebook, be sure to let everybody know
> when you've finished doing that.
for a rewrite; I'm not a native speaker/writer, I have no insights
in the design ideas of the Devteam, I don't know the NH36x changes,
and I don't even play the new NH version. It was just a suggestion
that it might be time to make game and documentation more coherent,
since (as we could observe) there are occasionally assumptions and
statements made that aren't reflected properly (or at all) in the
main source of the documentation (in the Guidebook). I don't know
whether you are still actively involved in the Devteam, but if so
you can of course just ignore my suggestion. (It's not uncommon
that software documentation is not updated by the game hackers,
but I've seen "NH-36x labels" in the docs so I thought someone
involved in the Devteam might care.)
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
May 23, 2021, 5:35:11 AM5/23/21
to
;-)
Janis
David Damerell
May 24, 2021, 12:02:35 PM5/24/21
to
Quoting Pat Rankin <r.pat....@gmail.com>:
>The game's plot, such as it is, is that you're on a mission to
>recover the Amulet for your patron deity. Acquiring it and lugging
>it to the Astral Plane, then offering it to a rival deity should count
>as loss rather than a win.
I always thought it should be a celestial disgrace. Presumably at some
>The game's plot, such as it is, is that you're on a mission to
>recover the Amulet for your patron deity. Acquiring it and lugging
>it to the Astral Plane, then offering it to a rival deity should count
>as loss rather than a win.
point you get the HoOA off and "dear Odin, what have I done?"
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Clown shoes. I hope that doesn't bother you.
Today is Teleute, June.
Tomorrow will be Oneiros, June.
Janis Papanagnou
Jul 8, 2021, 4:45:42 PM7/8/21
to
On 16.05.2021 20:43, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 03.08.2020 13:06, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> [ Angelic beings' summoning storms on Plane of Air ]
Yet another annoying death... (a chaotic orcish ranger)
> On 03.08.2020 13:06, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> [ Angelic beings' summoning storms on Plane of Air ]
Before I entered the Plane of Air I wielded a cockatrice corpse to
be prepared. On Air I had two or three A close by (Planetar, or so).
Petrified one of them. Summoning storm. Killed another adjacent one.
Engulfed by an air elemental I had to switch weapons. And there was
still a titan and another A adjacent. - DYWYPI? - What? With HP:478
(max: 649) I thought I had some buffer. What happened was that there
were two basilisks adjacent and I just missed them and their attack;
I got petrified. Note to self: next time I have to genocide ':' too.
Maybe I should have scared the monsters with my drum of earthquake
first?
N+1 to my died on the Plane of Air record.
Janis
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