POWDER: Library level
Lim-Dul
I'm stuck on depth 21. I reached some kind of library with a magic door
and a square room with a total of 16 fiery altars. The door tells me to
place 4 potions, 4 wands, 4 rings and 4 scrolls with "utmost symmetry".
So I placed the above mentioned items on the altars - mirroring the
placement of each of them (taking the center of the room as a mirroring
point) but they just keep disappearing in puffs of smoke while some of
them vibrate. Should I place IDENTICAL items in mirrored places or
repeat the patterns on the altars? If I need identical items then I'm
pretty much screwed since I have only 4 scrolls in total and each of
them is different. It'd take me HOURS to collect 4 identical scrolls
since I have bad luck with finding them...
To provide a graphical representation of the puzzle:
oo oo
oo oo
oo oo
oo oo
o - altars
My solutions (that didn't work but I didn't use identical items):
pw wp
rs sr
rs sr
pw wp
-------
pw pw
rs rs
pw pw
rs rs
p - potion
w - wand
s - scroll
r - ring
Best regards,
Lim-Dul
P.S. Should all the items disappear or vibrate to solve the puzzle?
Lim-Dul
However, the solution is total bullshit:
sr pw
wp rs
pw sr
rs wp
Yes, the first and fourth altar groupings and the second and third are
identical BUT where is the point or line of symmetry? It's a pattern but
it's NOT SYMMETRICAL!
Best regards,
Lim-Dul
Farlight
Think....sudoku :)
Farlight
> OK - I found the solution. Identical items were not required.
>
> However, the solution is total bullshit:
Nah. Look closer there is a pattern.... swpr wprs pwsr rswp
It took me a while to find (few times to the library and a LOT of
items lost.....) but it does make sense.
Lim-Dul
> Nah. Look closer there is a pattern.... swpr wprs pwsr rswp
>
> It took me a while to find (few times to the library and a LOT of
> items lost.....) but it does make sense.
Well - like I've written before I see the pattern but then I shouldn't
be told to find a solution of "utter symmetry" which implies some line
or point of symmetry that clearly isn't present here. Find the correct
pattern would be more like it. I wasted tons of items looking for a
solution that would have had some real symmetry to it.
I think the most logical solution would look e.g. like this (never mind
the item type - just the placement - ANY layout like this should solve
the puzzle):
.\###0###(/)
.#ps...rw#
.#sp...wr#
.#..\(/).#
.0...X...#
.#.(/)\..#
.#rw...ps#
.#wr...sp#
(/)######\
And you know why? Because it's symmetrical both along the NW-SE diagonal
since there was also a door in the W wall with the magical door in the N
wall. It'd also be symmetrical along the NE-SW diagonal if you don't
mind the doors. An item placement like this would make the whole room
PERFECTLY (like, "utterly"?) symmetrical. The puzzle description was
very misleading for someone who has a background in mathematics and
geometry and thinks this puzzle might be something more than finding two
patterns by trial and error...
Best regards,
Jan Milewski
P.S. There's nothing more annoying in games than presenting a solution
to a puzzle that is more logical than the "correct" one and still being
punished for it. It's one of the reasons why the point and click genre
with "use the cigarette stub on the octopus" type of puzzles died off
almost completely.
serg271
> On 2008-04-25 22:38, Farlight wrote:
>
> > Nah. Look closer there is a pattern.... swpr wprs pwsr rswp
>
> > It took me a while to find (few times to the library and a LOT of
> > items lost.....) but it does make sense.
>
1. It's too later to have any impact
2. It contradict to spirit of the game. Such puzzles are natural for
nethack, with it's endless component recombinations and socobans.
Powder is more tactical game, I wouldn't like it to became nethack 2.
What I would like instead - altars of gods throughout the game and
some logic behind sacrifices.
Jeff Lait
> On Apr 26, 4:17 am, Lim-Dul <lim_d...@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:> On 2008-04-25 22:38, Farlight wrote:
>
> > > Nah. Look closer there is a pattern.... swpr wprs pwsr rswp
>
> > > It took me a while to find (few times to the library and a LOT of
> > > items lost.....) but it does make sense.
>
> I don't like library puzzle at all.
> 1. It's too later to have any impact
> 2. It contradict to spirit of the game. Such puzzles are natural for
> nethack, with it's endless component recombinations and socobans.
> Powder is more tactical game, I wouldn't like it to became nethack 2.
I am part of the anti-Sokoban camp of Nethack players. So why would I
add the library puzzle?
1) It's too late to have any impact. Specifically, it isn't a game
breaker to play or not play the puzzle - this makes it in many ways
truly optional, unlike the prospect of a "oR or Bag of H in Nethack.
That said, it is still a nice reward - one of my goals at the end of
the game is to let the player complete their spell sets. Even with
the library, you can often have to poly books to do this. Without the
library you might have unlucky wizards that never get to access half
the spells.
2) Unlike Sokoban, the puzzle can be randomized. Thus, I feel it is
part of the spirit of roguelikes. Further, it is spoils better than
Nethack's Sokoban - as soon as you know the solution, you can fit the
solution in your head without needing to look it up.
> What I would like instead - altars of gods throughout the game and
> some logic behind sacrifices.
I dunno, that seems more like Nethack 2. Altars with sacrifices is
just more encouragement to hoover the dungeons and packrat everything
you find for an eventual altar spree. I like that in POWDER you can
safely discard things without worrying about some eventual need.
(Well, I guess the library puzzle is a slight contradiction to
this...)
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
Jeff Lait
> On 2008-04-25 22:38, Farlight wrote:
>
> > Nah. Look closer there is a pattern.... swpr wprs pwsr rswp
>
> > It took me a while to find (few times to the library and a LOT of
> > items lost.....) but it does make sense.
>
> Well - like I've written before I see the pattern but then I shouldn't
> be told to find a solution of "utter symmetry" which implies some line
> or point of symmetry that clearly isn't present here. Find the correct
> pattern would be more like it. I wasted tons of items looking for a
> solution that would have had some real symmetry to it.
I don't think it is just a matter of finding the "correct pattern",
however. Correct pattern implies some random arrangement of items
that you have to work out by brute force each time.
I personally think the final solution does have symmetry - not
geometric symmetry, mind you.
> I think the most logical solution would look e.g. like this (never mind
> the item type - just the placement - ANY layout like this should solve
> the puzzle):
>
> .\###0###(/)
> .#ps...rw#
> .#sp...wr#
> .#..\(/).#
> .0...X...#
> .#.(/)\..#
> .#rw...ps#
> .#wr...sp#
> (/)######\
>
> And you know why? Because it's symmetrical both along the NW-SE diagonal
> since there was also a door in the W wall with the magical door in the N
> wall. It'd also be symmetrical along the NE-SW diagonal if you don't
> mind the doors.
That's the rub, no? As soon as you ignore the doors, why not any of
the other mirror symmetries? Or rotational symmetry?
> An item placement like this would make the whole room
> PERFECTLY (like, "utterly"?) symmetrical. The puzzle description was
> very misleading for someone who has a background in mathematics and
> geometry and thinks this puzzle might be something more than finding two
> patterns by trial and error...
It is something more than finding two patterns by trial and error.
> P.S. There's nothing more annoying in games than presenting a solution
> to a puzzle that is more logical than the "correct" one and still being
> punished for it. It's one of the reasons why the point and click genre
> with "use the cigarette stub on the octopus" type of puzzles died off
> almost completely.
I apologize for Belweir's lack of precision in addition to his lack of
meter.
The Rani
> On 2008-04-25 22:38, Farlight wrote:
>
> > Nah. Look closer there is a pattern.... swpr wprs pwsr rswp
>
> > It took me a while to find (few times to the library and a LOT of
> > items lost.....) but it does make sense.
>
> Well - like I've written before I see the pattern but then I shouldn't
> be told to find a solution of "utter symmetry" which implies some line
> or point of symmetry that clearly isn't present here. Find the correct
> pattern would be more like it. I wasted tons of items looking for a
> solution that would have had some real symmetry to it.
>
This one had me stumped at first, but I discovered the foolproof way
to solve it that works every time. It requires only 40 items.
Lim-Dul
>
> I apologize for Belweir's lack of precision in addition to his lack of
> meter.
Ha - no worries. POWDER is awesome. I'll donate soon. ^^
This last argument is actually the most sensible one. It's a puzzle
designed by a god so I guess you shouldn't think too logically or whine
about it and just accept the solution as it is because HE wanted it that
way. :-D
Best regards,
Lim-Dul
Lim-Dul
of Xom? I mean, as such a chaotic and whimsical being (basically like
the Chaos gods in the Warhammer universe) he just begs for it. :-D
I tried playing as a cultist and had lots of fun until some god (maybe
Xom him(it?)self) made me "prove my worth" and surrounded me with
monsters. :-D YASD, I guess. ^^
I knew that this could happen but I have been equipped with some means
of teleportation or was too awesome for the monsters in my fighter
play-through. ^^
Now I'm trying to fool around as a necromancer. Seems like lots of fun
as well since apparently they have no dress codes and stuff and get both
HP and MP. Raising undead armies has always been awesome in its own
right (without penalties unlike in some RLs!) anyway but could prolong
the game time...
Best regards,
Lim-Dul
P.S. I learned why it is important to have a good light source and
preferably a helm (item) of telepathy as a necromancer - the hard way. :-D
I also learned that Endure Hunger is far more practical for necromancers
than for any other class that could actually see it as a hindrance. By
the way - does Clean Kill work for your minions as well?
Jeff Lait
> By the way, Jeff. Are you considering a longer and funnier description
> of Xom? I mean, as such a chaotic and whimsical being (basically like
> the Chaos gods in the Warhammer universe) he just begs for it. :-D
I should. Maybe do some Crawl research (where the obvious source is
from) to make it appropriately thematic.
> I tried playing as a cultist and had lots of fun until some god (maybe
> Xom him(it?)self) made me "prove my worth" and surrounded me with
> monsters. :-D YASD, I guess. ^^
> I knew that this could happen but I have been equipped with some means
> of teleportation or was too awesome for the monsters in my fighter
> play-through. ^^
Yeah, the types of monsters can be varied too. Sometimes you get
surrounded by rats, or are in a dead end hallway, so can just shrug it
off.
> Now I'm trying to fool around as a necromancer. Seems like lots of fun
> as well since apparently they have no dress codes and stuff and get both
> HP and MP. Raising undead armies has always been awesome in its own
> right (without penalties unlike in some RLs!) anyway but could prolong
> the game time...
Necromancers are supposed to treat their undead servants like
commodities, so I never thought penalties made sense. Save that for
the clerics.
> P.S. I learned why it is important to have a good light source and
> preferably a helm (item) of telepathy as a necromancer - the hard way. :-D
Helms of telepathy can actually be preferred over warning for
necromancers and clerics.
> I also learned that Endure Hunger is far more practical for necromancers
> than for any other class that could actually see it as a hindrance.
Yep, quite accurate. I don't think anyone would see it as a
hinderance, however. Endure Hunger doesn't reduce your rate of
starvation.
> By
> the way - does Clean Kill work for your minions as well?
Of course it does. Provided the minions have the skill, of course.
Which, unless you are doing something funky with possess, they don't.
zai...@zaimoni.com
Belweir's hint is plausibly meant to remind *him*, not make sense to
mortals. This isn't Moria, where the password is on the front door.
That said, for four items combining the half-circle rotations with a
sudoku solution does very nicely for a non-geometric symmetry.
Lim-Dul
>> P.S. I learned why it is important to have a good light source and
>> preferably a helm (item) of telepathy as a necromancer - the hard way. :-D
>
> Helms of telepathy can actually be preferred over warning for
> necromancers and clerics.
That's what I was saying. :-D
>> I also learned that Endure Hunger is far more practical for necromancers
>> than for any other class that could actually see it as a hindrance.
>
> Yep, quite accurate. I don't think anyone would see it as a
> hinderance, however. Endure Hunger doesn't reduce your rate of
> starvation.
Ha - another mystery revealed! =)
However, I think that I might have found some kind of bug then. When I
unlearned Endure Hunger I was full and that state seemed to remain for
like forever - as if some variable was stuck or something. I remained in
the "full" state for a whole 10-15 minutes before I turned off the DS
and reloaded the game...
I don't know if that was a bug and if it can be reproduced or if that
was just some unbelievable work on the random number generator's side...
To sum up what I did:
I ate a lot of corpses. I had the Endure Hunger skill. I got full. I
presumed the skill changes the rate of starvation. I unlearned the
skill. My "full" state remained unchanged for like 10-15 minutes before
I decided to reload.
>> By
>> the way - does Clean Kill work for your minions as well?
>
> Of course it does. Provided the minions have the skill, of course.
> Which, unless you are doing something funky with possess, they don't.
Ah well. I thought about some weird stuff like the necromancer directing
his minions like puppets and thus transferring his skills to them. =)
I have another unrelated idea. I was messing around with the Knock spell
and noticed that you had thought of making it useful enough to be able
to shut doors blocked by items and/or monsters. I know that the Knock
spell has been enhanced recently but I have another suggestion - it's
meant to be rather "thematic" than a way of making the spell stronger.
What if monsters got damaged by the door being forcefully closed while
they were standing on it? The damage needn't be huge but could be
accompanied by some console-flavor-text like "You smash the door in
<monster_name's> face." POWDER is a quite humorous game from what I
gather and this kind of thing would be the fantasy equivalent of
stepping on a rake. :-D
Hell, I'd stand around and smash monsters
with the door just for the fun of it even if it were to be the least
effective method when it comes to the mana-to-damage ratio. :-D
Imagine how cruel and awesome it would be to smash poor little mice
(they annoy me as hell because they're running away - I guess I'm a
cruel guy, I'll never be able to play as a cleric :-D) in the
door-frame. :-D
Best regards,
Lim-Dul
Jeff Lait
> Ha - another mystery revealed! =)
> However, I think that I might have found some kind of bug then. When I
> unlearned Endure Hunger I was full and that state seemed to remain for
> like forever - as if some variable was stuck or something. I remained in
> the "full" state for a whole 10-15 minutes before I turned off the DS
> and reloaded the game...
>
> I don't know if that was a bug and if it can be reproduced or if that
> was just some unbelievable work on the random number generator's side...
>
> To sum up what I did:
>
> I ate a lot of corpses. I had the Endure Hunger skill. I got full. I
> presumed the skill changes the rate of starvation. I unlearned the
> skill. My "full" state remained unchanged for like 10-15 minutes before
> I decided to reload.
Were you polymorphed into anything? If the form you are in lacks the
ability to eat, you don't hunger. Otherwise this is a mystery and
possibly a bug.
> I have another unrelated idea. I was messing around with the Knock spell
> and noticed that you had thought of making it useful enough to be able
> to shut doors blocked by items and/or monsters. I know that the Knock
> spell has been enhanced recently but I have another suggestion - it's
> meant to be rather "thematic" than a way of making the spell stronger.
> What if monsters got damaged by the door being forcefully closed while
> they were standing on it? The damage needn't be huge but could be
> accompanied by some console-flavor-text like "You smash the door in
> <monster_name's> face." POWDER is a quite humorous game from what I
> gather and this kind of thing would be the fantasy equivalent of
> stepping on a rake. :-D
> Hell, I'd stand around and smash monsters
> with the door just for the fun of it even if it were to be the least
> effective method when it comes to the mana-to-damage ratio. :-D
> Imagine how cruel and awesome it would be to smash poor little mice
> (they annoy me as hell because they're running away - I guess I'm a
> cruel guy, I'll never be able to play as a cleric :-D) in the
> door-frame. :-D
A very good idea. It can also, of course, knockback the monster to
clear the door space. It makes knock very useful when running away
then.