Crawl Talk
Will Shattuck
all that been moved to another location?
Will
Galehar
wrote:
> Hi all. I haven't seen much talk of crawl on the ng recently. Has
> all that been moved to another location?
>
> Will
Indeed. A forum has been created and that's where most of the crawl
talking is taking place now. Come have a drink with us at the Tavern!
RjY
>Hi all. I haven't seen much talk of crawl on the ng recently. Has
>all that been moved to another location?
Yeah they have a web forum now. I can't imagine why.
Sherm Pendley
> Will Shattuck posted:
>>Hi all. I haven't seen much talk of crawl on the ng recently. Has
>>all that been moved to another location?
>
> Yeah they have a web forum now. I can't imagine why.
Maybe they wanted usenet users to stop contributing.
sherm--
--
Sherm Pendley
<http://camelbones.sourceforge.net>
Cocoa Developer
Joachim Schipper
> RjY <R...@sp.am> writes:
>> Will Shattuck posted:
>>>Hi all. I haven't seen much talk of crawl on the ng recently. Has
>>>all that been moved to another location?
>>
>> Yeah they have a web forum now. I can't imagine why.
>
> Maybe they wanted usenet users to stop contributing.
Although I'm not happy about the decline of Usenet, the number of people
participating there is *much* larger than the number of people
participating here. It does make sense for them to do it.
Joachim
Will Shattuck
> --
> http://rjy.org.uk/
Thanks. I thought u saw something but didn't see it. I prefer Usenet
too. I remember when Netscape 1.0 came out and I thought it would
never take off because it was so much slower than lynx. Looks like i
was wrong about web forums to. ;-)
Will
Peter Huebner
>
> Will Shattuck posted:
> >Hi all. I haven't seen much talk of crawl on the ng recently. Has
> >all that been moved to another location?
>
> Yeah they have a web forum now. I can't imagine why.
Oh, yukk. I hate web forums with a passion. Who would voluntarily drive a
stripped down 1960s Skoda when they can have the comfort and slick abilities of
a luxury vehicle (e.g. usenet reader). I am 'forced' to use a forum in a
different context and find it extraordinarily clunky and distasteful to use.
(As has variously been my experience of them in the past).
No, I don't need 'avatars' and post counts and 'rankings' and graphical
smileys. Vapid accessories ... I like proper attributions and threading and
sorting of followups ... worse: one thread spread over 9 webpages, that would
be shown in half a page on the ng plane in a reader. I like to sign into the
server once with one password for all my newsgroups. Shucks, I already have one
notebook just full of login details.
I'm not tempted to go there. Blech.
-P.
David Ploog
> Will Shattuck posted:
>> Hi all. I haven't seen much talk of crawl on the ng recently. Has
>> all that been moved to another location?
>
> Yeah they have a web forum now. I can't imagine why.
Replying here -- other Usenet veterans expressed their disliking just in
harsher form.
First, you cannot really say that this group has been a hub of Crawl or
other roguelike communication recently. If someone asks, there will be
replies, but that's it. Several Crawl developers lurk here, and will keep
replying to questions.
On the other hand, you should realise that the vast majority of crawlers
is either unaware of Usenet or simply prefers a forum. So having a forum
is not a bad idea. By the way, there have been Crawl dedicated forums (or
threads) all the time. Also, the forum is not as bad as you make it. I've
never been active on one, but it is definitly usable. (And you'd assume
that each mode, Usenet or forum or IRC or wiki etc., has its own set of
advantages and drwabacks.)
Finally, to continue that point, there are many more communications
channels in use than you might be aware of (although you can find pointers
to all of them from the in-game help):
* IRC freenode channel ##crawl: very active, for chit-chat and impromptu
questions about games ("What should I wield?").
* IRC freenode channel ##crawl-dev for development talk.
* The development wiki for matters which are discussed more seriously or
are settled (and will be implemented at some point).
* Several forums, one on SomethingAwful (which is awful to use, although
content is less insane than it used to be) and the new one mentioned
by Galehar (not awful to use and frequented by developers). There are
probably other ones as well.
* This Usenet channel.
Of these, Usenet had least traffic for years. If you (where "you" is the
general user base, not any particular poster) don't generate enough
content, communication has moved elsewhere.
RjY
>On Thu, 20 Jan 2011, RjY wrote:
>> Will Shattuck posted:
>>> Hi all. I haven't seen much talk of crawl on the ng recently. Has
>>> all that been moved to another location?
>> Yeah they have a web forum now. I can't imagine why.
>Replying here -- other Usenet veterans expressed their disliking just in
>harsher form.
Yes, sorry about that. I didn't mean to start a mini-flamewar ;-)
>On the other hand, you should realise that the vast majority of crawlers
>is either unaware of Usenet or simply prefers a forum. So having a forum
>is not a bad idea. By the way, there have been Crawl dedicated forums (or
>threads) all the time. Also, the forum is not as bad as you make it. I've
>never been active on one, but it is definitly usable.
It does seem to me that the majority of computer users prefer eye-candy
point-and-grunt interfaces to complex text-based ones where every key on
your keyboard does something different. It's just more aggravating when
the subject is a roguelike, a genre of game which is almost defined by
having a complex interface with a high information density where every
key on your keyboard does something different. :-)
>(And you'd assume that each mode, Usenet or forum or IRC or wiki etc.,
>has its own set of advantages and drwabacks.)
That's true and worth highlighting. Usenet itself is not without its
problems; there's hardly any authentication or access control because it
was designed in an age where everyone online was very respectful, and
pretending to be someone else or posting huge amounts of spam was
unthinkable. Furthermore there's no easy way to create new groups. I've
been surprised in the past that there isn't a rec.games.roguelike.crawl,
but it seems getting a new group created is too bogged down in red tape.
Web forums give you more of the posting control[1], but force an
interface on the user which he might not like (the server mixes
formatting and graphics in with the content, as opposed to NNTP which
just gives you the posts); there's no way to download posts for offline
reading and replying later (I would be happy if forums had NNTP
interfaces, or even mail interfaces which could be reflected onto Gmane,
like c-r-d and a bunch of other mailing lists I follow already are -
after all a mailing list is just a hack to make email behave like
Usenet) and of course what I have heard described eloquantly as
"Balkanisation of identity" - having to create a new username/password
combo for every site, and trusting the admins of that site to not do
anything stupid with them.
IRC as you mention is good for some purposes - I have to say ##crawl-dev
is one of the most interesting channels I've had the pleasure to lurk in
- but it's too ephemeral. However at least IRC is an open protocol,
designed for purpose like NNTP, without presentation mixed in with
content, so I don't feel like I'm having an interface forced on me.
[1] I'm sure you won't admit to it but I bet the developers were very
taken with the idea of being able to ban dissenters, disrespectful
posters, and others they just don't like, from their forums. ;-)
<snip>
>Of these, Usenet had least traffic for years. If you (where "you" is the
>general user base, not any particular poster) don't generate enough
>content, communication has moved elsewhere.
Well yes. But personally, the number of times I've gone to write a post
but cancelled it because I can't stop thinking "you can't say that,
people'll think you're stupid"... *sigh*
Galehar
> [1] I'm sure you won't admit to it but I bet the developers were very
> taken with the idea of being able to ban dissenters, disrespectful
> posters, and others they just don't like, from their forums. ;-)
moderation is done by users. I'm the only dev/moderator there, and I
don't do much moderation.
> Well yes. But personally, the number of times I've gone to write a post
> but cancelled it because I can't stop thinking "you can't say that,
> people'll think you're stupid"... *sigh*
Nobody does that on web forums ;)
RjY
>On 21 jan, 12:49, RjY <R...@sp.am> wrote:
>> [1] I'm sure you won't admit to it but I bet the developers were very
>> taken with the idea of being able to ban dissenters, disrespectful
>> posters, and others they just don't like, from their forums. ;-)
>The forum is a user initiative and most of the administration and
>moderation is done by users. I'm the only dev/moderator there, and I
>don't do much moderation.
Ah. I stand corrected, then.
>> Well yes. But personally, the number of times I've gone to write a post
>> but cancelled it because I can't stop thinking "you can't say that,
>> people'll think you're stupid"... *sigh*
>Nobody does that on web forums ;)
On both counts ;-)
JPEG
> It does seem to me that the majority of computer users prefer eye-candy
> point-and-grunt interfaces to complex text-based ones where every key on
> your keyboard does something different. It's just more aggravating when
> the subject is a roguelike, a genre of game which is almost defined by
> having a complex interface with a high information density where every
> key on your keyboard does something different. :-)
Well, to be fair, there is a disproportionate amount of tiles players
on the forums, which in turn are more likely to be younger players who
didn't experience the heyday of usenet.
> Furthermore there's no easy way to create new groups. I've
> been surprised in the past that there isn't a rec.games.roguelike.crawl,
> but it seems getting a new group created is too bogged down in red tape.
I don't think there's enough Crawl-related content on r.g.r.m. to
require such a step, even if it were easily done. Compare to that, if
you will, how frequently people were asking (in the blog, in the
mailing list, on IRC) for a dedicated forum. Usenet isn't dead, but
the major part of online debate has moved elsewhere.
> and of course what I have heard described eloquantly as
> "Balkanisation of identity" - having to create a new username/password
> combo for every site, and trusting the admins of that site to not do
> anything stupid with them.
Ugh, yeah. I can totally understand not wanting to join any forums
because of that. In fact, I refuse all invitations to various social
communities for precisely that reason.
However, in this case it's actually less of an issue because user
account and password are _shared_ between our Mantis bug tracker and
the Tavern forum, which is handy for users and of immense value for
development because it makes it so much more likely for things coming
up in discussion to actually appear on the wiki or bug tracker. It is
true that you'll just have to trust us not to do anything stupid with
them. Which naturally we won't. :)
> IRC as you mention is good for some purposes - I have to say ##crawl-dev
> is one of the most interesting channels I've had the pleasure to lurk in
> - but it's too ephemeral.
In case you ever want to look up something, the IRC logs are archived:
http://tozt.net/crawl/
> Well yes. But personally, the number of times I've gone to write a post
> but cancelled it because I can't stop thinking "you can't say that,
> people'll think you're stupid"... *sigh*
Doesn't that apply to all forms of communication?
All the best,
jpeg
Sherm Pendley
> Also, the forum is not as bad as you make it.
My problem with fora is their "take it or leave it" nature. If I dislike
a particular usenet client, I'm free to choose another. If I dislike
the interface of a web forum, the only choice I have is to go else-
where - which is what I choose by staying here.
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
> David Ploog <dpl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> writes:
>
>> Also, the forum is not as bad as you make it.
>
> My problem with fora is their "take it or leave it" nature. If I dislike
> a particular usenet client, I'm free to choose another. If I dislike
> the interface of a web forum, the only choice I have is to go else-
> where - which is what I choose by staying here.
If you're that beardy, put those skills to use and consider alternate
browsers, greasemonkey scripts to make the forum look more like how you
want it to, and so on. Web forums are a crappier base to work from
than usenet, no doubt about it. But you still have a lot of control
over the client you use to access them, and the way they behave for you.
Realistically, in order for people to communicate with each other online,
either people need to learn a new set of skills, or there needs to be a
whole lot of glue. No one seems willing to write the glue to make forums
work with NNTP, and in the past, NNTP was where the content was, and so
a number of people (including myself --- were it not for roguelikes I
would completely ignore Usenet) learned to use NTTP in order to get to
the content. Now the content is on the Web. Do you care enough about the
content to learn a new set of tools, one you don't like?
Saying "yes" and "no" are both fine. But in asking everyone else to use
your set of tools instead, you're asking them to make the same choice
in your place. Don't be surprised when they say no, just like you are,
and continue their conversations on the Web, and you're left out.
-r.
Sherm Pendley
> On 2011-01-21, Sherm Pendley <sherm....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> David Ploog <dpl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> writes:
>>
>>> Also, the forum is not as bad as you make it.
>>
>> My problem with fora is their "take it or leave it" nature. If I dislike
>> a particular usenet client, I'm free to choose another. If I dislike
>> the interface of a web forum, the only choice I have is to go else-
>> where - which is what I choose by staying here.
>
> If you're that beardy, put those skills to use and consider alternate
> browsers, greasemonkey scripts to make the forum look more like how you
> want it to, and so on.
Why? No, really - why? If the neighborhood grocer has a horrible shop-
ping experience, with narrow aisles and poor lighting, is it my job to
bust out the construction tools and fix it for them? Am I obligated to
walk sideways and carry a flashlight just to avoid feeling "left out?"
No on both counts. I simply shop somewhere else.
Napkin
> [...] and of course what I have heard described eloquantly as
> "Balkanisation of identity" - having to create a new username/password
> combo for every site, and trusting the admins of that site to not do
> anything stupid with them.
As JPEG partly said, all authentication data for the bug tracker
(Mantis), the development wiki (docuwiki) and the tavern (phpbb3) is
taken from and done through the bug tracker. I'm glad I managed to get
that working as, exactly for the reason you stated, I didn't want people
to have to remember/create account details separately. It's not perfect
yet (phpbb3 not using mantis/docuwiki cookies), but it should make it
easy for people to switch to the service they need to work with.
Apart from that I am the only person with root access to my server and
I'm also sufficiently paranoid about security I think, and omg how I
hate services selling personal data. Rest assured I won't pass on any
data and do my best to keep it safe.
BTW, phpbb3 <-> nntp gateway is far too alpha to make it work (needs
write access for anonymous users, etc) and I'm just a hobby hacker. But
if anyone is willing to integrate such a service, don't hesitate to let
me know, please :)
Cheers,
Napkin
[Sorry for repost.. just realized how sucky google groups is.]
Harald Korneliussen
> It does seem to me that the majority of computer users prefer eye-candy
> point-and-grunt interfaces to complex text-based ones where every key on
> your keyboard does something different. It's just more aggravating when
> the subject is a roguelike, a genre of game which is almost defined by
> having a complex interface with a high information density where every
> key on your keyboard does something different. :-)
Ah, but Stone Soup is moving away from all that. It has a pretty neat
interface for a roguelike, and the killer feature is autoexplore - a
"point-and-grunt interface" if there ever was one, quite controversial
for its radicalism when it first came. Should not the pioneer of user-
friendly roguelikes have a user-friendly forum interface?
I post through Google Groups anyway. The lack of killfiles/spam
filtering is a problem on some newsgroups, and the reply tracking is
so-and-so, but it's less hassle than downloading and configuring a
newsreader everywhere.
Björn Ritzl
(and r.g.r.angband and others as well) is that I no longer have one
single location to visit when I want an update on the recent
developments of new and old roguelikes. Visiting 10 different forums to
get updates on my favorite roguelikes is a no go. I want *one* place,
*one* login, *one* UI.
Now that Crawl follows this trend I will stop following Crawl
development myself, besides what may trickle back here on this NG.
Farewell Crawl!
/Björn Ritzl
Konstantin Stupnik
> Visiting 10 different forums to
> get updates on my favorite roguelikes is a no go. I want *one* place,
> *one* login, *one* UI.
Most forums support RSS feeds in subforums.
Most forums dedicated to particular game have subforum 'Announcements'.
Google reader is very good RSS reader.
You need one login for all google services.
Profit? :)
Galehar
wrote:
Good point. Although if you want to keep in touch with Crawl's
development via RSS, I suggest using the dev blog feed (http://
crawl.develz.org/wordpress/feed) rather than one of the forum feed.
David Ploog
[new, semi-official Crawl forum at]
>> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/index.php
> My main concern with the recent trend of moving stuff from r.g.r.misc (and
> r.g.r.angband and others as well) is that I no longer have one single
> location to visit when I want an update on the recent developments of new and
> old roguelikes. Visiting 10 different forums to get updates on my favorite
> roguelikes is a no go. I want *one* place, *one* login, *one* UI.
Yes, it is inconvenient. By the way, there was some talk over the years to
set up something like rec.games.roguelike.crawl. I was always against it:
to me, it feels much better to read among other roguelikes as well.
> Now that Crawl follows this trend I will stop following Crawl development
> myself, besides what may trickle back here on this NG. Farewell Crawl!
It is not that we have abandoned r.g.r.misc or anything. Announcements
will go to r.g.r.announce and r.g.r.misc as usual, and we lurk and reply.
We old-timers just cannot stop the new tide, let's face it.
JPEG
wrote:
> My main concern with the recent trend of moving stuff from r.g.r.misc
> (and r.g.r.angband and others as well) is that I no longer have one
> single location to visit when I want an update on the recent
> developments of new and old roguelikes.
Eh? We haven't yet stopped posting release announcements to rgrm and
rgra, nor do we intend to do so. If that's your only worry, it's only
a problem for us developers who are starting to have trouble keeping
up with the many places that require announcements. ;) Mainly, we rely
on players carrying the announcements to the various fora they use for
talking about Crawl.
Of course, if you want to be kept up-to-date with what's happening in
the *development* builds, the best course of action is to make use of
the RSS feed of http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/
Or maybe you're simply complaining for the sake of complaining, that's
hard to tell.
jpeg
Björn Ritzl
Nope, even though it's dark and cold where I'm at it's not my style to
complain for the sake of complaining :-)
I've always enjoyed reading player discussions about Crawl, Angband and
others. It's interesting and inspiring to read discussions about game
play mechanics, tactics, monsters, level design and so on. Since Crawl
is the largest RL that is actively developed it's a shame that I can't
get my "fix" here in my mail client while reading my e-mail and browsing
r.g.r.dev.
> jpeg
/Björn - author of the mobile RL Dweller
Björn Ritzl
Yeah, posting announcements is ofc good, but as I replied to JPEG it's
the discussions that I enjoy (although I hardly ever participate).
> We old-timers just cannot stop the new tide, let's face it.
I know I know, but we can always try!
/Björn
David Damerell
>On 2011-01-21, Sherm Pendley <sherm....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>a particular usenet client, I'm free to choose another. If I dislike
>>the interface of a web forum, the only choice I have is to go else-
>>where - which is what I choose by staying here.
>your set of tools instead, you're asking them to make the same choice
>in your place.
No-one's asking anyone to do that with Usenet, because there already
exists a very wide selection of tools. Obviously I prefer that people use
rgrm to some lousy Web forum, but I am completely indifferent as to
whether or not they use trn to read it.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Oil is for sissies
Today is Brieday, January.
Tomorrow will be Gouday, January.
Galehar
wrote:
> >>a particular usenet client, I'm free to choose another. If I dislike
> >>the interface of a web forum, the only choice I have is to go else-
> >>where - which is what I choose by staying here.
> >Saying "yes" and "no" are both fine. But in asking everyone else to use
> >your set of tools instead, you're asking them to make the same choice
> >in your place.
>
> No-one's asking anyone to do that with Usenet, because there already
> exists a very wide selection of tools. Obviously I prefer that people use
> rgrm to some lousy Web forum, but I am completely indifferent as to
> whether or not they use trn to read it.
You're right, the web forum sucks. Let's make a crawl facebook group
and tweet about it ;)
Sherm Pendley
> You're right, the web forum sucks. Let's make a crawl facebook group
Too late... <http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/group.php?gid=10427239437>
:-)
David Damerell
>No-one's asking anyone to do that with Usenet, because there already
>exists a very wide selection of tools. Obviously I prefer that people use
>rgrm to some lousy Web forum,
... I think I should say; I'm not saying the Crawl forum is specifically
lousy. I'm sure it's fine as Web forums go, but lousiness is a fundamental
property of Web forums.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Clown shoes. I hope that doesn't bother you.
Today is Gouday, January.
Tomorrow will be Chedday, January.
Dave Hartwick
they need to migrate to Usenet. The ad revenue they generate won't be
missed when they see how people can use more hotkeys!
While we're at it we can make a new group for you to complain about
those damn kids on your lawn.
Peter Huebner
dwhar...@gmail.com says...
Well, my interest in crawl has diminished considerably since there's no more
crawl talk here to inspire me. Ho hum, so it goes.
I was/am getting heartily sick of umpteen_yasd_syndrome before reaching
character level 5 or so (no potions at all but a blowpipe kobold on lvl 2,
cursed knife on level 1 for a non edged prof, smiting deaths that one could not
get away from because of an unfortunate map, etc etc).
For every character that *I* would get killed between lair and vault through
inexperience or stupid mistakes, I'd have 20 or so yasd between dungeonlevel 1
and 7. It gets too tedious.
Not getting that extra inspiration from this ng has more or less had me move to
other games, like freecol and Sacred Underworld (which is more or less a
roguelike with much spiffier gfx and more freedom to move about anyway). I
still fire up crawl from time to time but it only takes 2 yasd to have me throw
up my hands and change to solitaire these days.
-P.
Michal Bielinski
> Let's go tell everybody on about a million successful game boards that
> they need to migrate to Usenet. The ad revenue they generate won't be
> missed when they see how people can use more hotkeys!
Kheh. I like how after pressing '%' my newsreader switches from plain
to ROT13 view. No need to use external utilities or ROT13 encoders on
the web. Sadly this alone is not very likely to be sufficient argument.
I have accepted the fact sometimes inferior methods of communication
win due to ease of use. Miss you rec.games.roguelike.adom.
--
Michal Bielinski
RjY
>I was/am getting heartily sick of umpteen_yasd_syndrome before reaching
>killed between lair and vault through inexperience or stupid mistakes,
>I'd have 20 or so yasd between dungeonlevel 1 and 7. It gets too
>tedious.
This matches my own experience but there is a solution. Crawl is free
software. Patch the game to make it easier. You won't regret it - I
would have given up on it years ago if I hadn't.
Of course you waive your online bragging rights but I felt that's a
small price to pay. Ultimately if the game is too frustrating to be fun,
then that's a bug, albeit one the developers have marked WONTFIX :-)
Joachim Schipper
> [M]y interest in crawl has diminished considerably since there's no
> more crawl talk here to inspire me. Ho hum, so it goes.
>
> I was/am getting heartily sick of umpteen_yasd_syndrome before
> reaching character level 5 or so (no potions at all but a blowpipe
> kobold on lvl 2, cursed knife on level 1 for a non edged prof, smiting
> deaths that one could not get away from because of an unfortunate map,
> etc etc).
>
> For every character that *I* would get killed between lair and vault
> through inexperience or stupid mistakes, I'd have 20 or so yasd
> between dungeonlevel 1 and 7. It gets too tedious.
It *is* possible to have fewer deaths. Maybe an extract of your morgue
would let people help you further? (Not me, though - I like crawl, but
I'm not very good.)
Joachim