The end of Crawl as we know it...

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Linley Henzell

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
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I've had a great time working on Crawl for the last few years,
especially with all of the feedback, support and unsolicited offers of
assistance I've received from the online community. However... a week
from now, on Saturday 27/3, I'm moving out to student accomodation
closer to my university (10 minutes walk, as opposed to a 1 hour bus
ride). This basically means the end of my role in the active development
of Crawl, because I'm not even going to try compiling it on the old 486
I've got for the purpose of word-processing.

I will still have email access (although it will be an inconvenient
web-based system available from the computers at my uni), and also www
access (although technically the uni's computers are for academic use
only). But I'm into the 4th year of my law degree this year, so I'll
probably be spending less time on computers than I have in the past.

So... what does this mean for Crawl? Hopefully, the fact that I will no
longer be working on it will not mean that it will never get past 3.30
(the bug-fixed and rebalanced version which I will release before I go).
As you probably know, the code is out and is under the GPL so anyone is
more than welcome to work on it. There is already someone working on
changing most of the game's constants to enums (mostly finished, as far
as I can see), but anybody is welcome to help out.

Anyone interested? If you want to have something to do with the future
development of Crawl, please post what you have to say to the ng. Should
I leave it open to numerous variants? Should I leave it to a single
maintainer? Or will it just fade into history, as Omega seemed likely to
do until recently? I don't know, but I'm interested to hear as many
opinions as possible.

BTW: my current email address will only be read by me for the next week
(my parents will continue to use it in my absence). I'll post my new
address soon.

Linley
http://olis.net.au/~zel/index.html

Adam K Rixey

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
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Well, though I can certainly understand your reasons for no longer
working on Crawl, I must say I'll be somewhat sad. It's a great game
with a lot of fresh ideas and would have liked to see what else you
could add to it.

But in any case, good luck with your law degree, and it's been a blast
playing your game (and will continue to be so, I'm not stopping any
time soon).

- AkR -- ny...@andrew.cmu.edu -- http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~nyarl -
The rivers of Babylon flow, and fall, and carry me away...

Timothy Meyers

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
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This is sad, really, because I have found myself completely unentertained
with all the other roguelikes as of late. On the other hand, Crawl seems
like the most custom-friendly game since Angband, why don't we see those
variants? After all, the bands and even the hacks to an extent have
strived best off variants-I can't even 'member their creator's names like
I do with Thomas and Lin. *sigh* BTW, I just resubscribed to this group
about a minute ago. Any good indev rls?
-tim-

Greg Wooledge

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Mar 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/21/99
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Timothy Meyers (tcme...@use.usit.net) wrote:

>On the other hand, Crawl seems
>like the most custom-friendly game since Angband, why don't we see those
>variants?

Angband variants only proliferated after Angband development leveled off.
(There hasn't been a new version of Angband in over a year.) Crawl has
been under active development ever since its initial release.

And, no offense intended, but Crawl isn't nearly as stable as Angband.
Much of the reason for the great number of Angband variants is the
extremely high level of "cleanliness" and the extremely low number of
bugs in the Angband code base.

--
Greg Wooledge | Distributed.NET http://www.distributed.net/
wool...@kellnet.com | because a CPU is a terrible thing to waste.
http://www.kellnet.com/wooledge/ |

Daniel Ligon

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Mar 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/21/99
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In rec.games.roguelike.misc, Linley Henzell <z...@olis.net.au> wrote:

>So... what does this mean for Crawl? Hopefully, the fact that I will no
>longer be working on it will not mean that it will never get past 3.30
>(the bug-fixed and rebalanced version which I will release before I go).
>As you probably know, the code is out and is under the GPL so anyone is
>more than welcome to work on it.

Unless several other individuals/groups step in, I know I will be
working on it. Whether I release anything...

>There is already someone working on
>changing most of the game's constants to enums (mostly finished, as far
>as I can see),

It's one of 80/20 deals. 80% of the work is in changing the last
20% of the code. :)

>but anybody is welcome to help out.

Above all, that is the operative statement.

>Anyone interested? If you want to have something to do with the future
>development of Crawl, please post what you have to say to the ng. Should
>I leave it open to numerous variants? Should I leave it to a single
>maintainer?

I think you should leave it open to as many persons as want to work on
it, and let it go as many directions as those persons take it. IMO,
there are unlikely to be more than two or variants.

>Or will it just fade into history, as Omega seemed likely to
>do until recently?

I really suspect that this will be Crawl's true fate, but not for a few
years. It'll be my fate, too. :)

>I don't know, but I'm interested to hear as many
>opinions as possible.


--
Good hunting, Brother.

Daniel Ligon
mak...@qis.net

Timothy Meyers

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Mar 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/21/99
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Greg Wooledge <wool...@kellnet.com> wrote:
: Timothy Meyers (tcme...@use.usit.net) wrote:

:>On the other hand, Crawl seems
:>like the most custom-friendly game since Angband, why don't we see those
:>variants?

: Angband variants only proliferated after Angband development leveled off.
: (There hasn't been a new version of Angband in over a year.) Crawl has
: been under active development ever since its initial release.

True, but it seems such a step as this will trigger some attention.

: And, no offense intended, but Crawl isn't nearly as stable as Angband.


: Much of the reason for the great number of Angband variants is the
: extremely high level of "cleanliness" and the extremely low number of
: bugs in the Angband code base.

Sure, but with his 3.30 it won't be that bad at all, IMO. It was clean
enough for everybody here on rec.games.rougelike.crawl, now wasn't it? If
I knew anything besides basic I'd be hacking it like a motherfucker,
really. ;) Besides, Crawl seems "cleaner" as far as interface and
user-friendliness than Nethack (even if not code-wise, which I suspect it
can't be too off from), which warranted a couple of variants.
Most importantly, it's a hell of a lot more FUN-like I said, none of the
other roguelikes, not even ADOM, have given me any pleasure since sometime
last year. A Crawl variant would certainly be something _I'd_ download.
-tim-

: --

Drakmere

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Mar 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/21/99
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In article <7d2or2$gv5$1...@makmorn.qis.net>, mak...@qis.net babbled thusly:

>In rec.games.roguelike.misc, Linley Henzell <z...@olis.net.au> wrote:
>
>>So... what does this mean for Crawl? Hopefully, the fact that I will no
>>longer be working on it will not mean that it will never get past 3.30
>>(the bug-fixed and rebalanced version which I will release before I go).
>>As you probably know, the code is out and is under the GPL so anyone is
>>more than welcome to work on it.
>
>Unless several other individuals/groups step in, I know I will be
>working on it. Whether I release anything...
>
>>There is already someone working on
>>changing most of the game's constants to enums (mostly finished, as far
>>as I can see),
>
>It's one of 80/20 deals. 80% of the work is in changing the last
>20% of the code. :)
>
>>but anybody is welcome to help out.
>
>Above all, that is the operative statement.
>
>>Anyone interested? If you want to have something to do with the future
>>development of Crawl, please post what you have to say to the ng. Should
>>I leave it open to numerous variants? Should I leave it to a single
>>maintainer?
>
>I think you should leave it open to as many persons as want to work on
>it, and let it go as many directions as those persons take it. IMO,
>there are unlikely to be more than two or variants.
I say leave the "official code" to some one you trust and let whomever wants to
make a variant go ahead.

--
All spellings are not guaranteed accurate. ICQ: 8869737 Yahoo: Drakmere Aim: drakmere9
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world.
When in-laws are outlawed, only outlaws will have in-laws.
If you can't say something nice, post it on Usenet.
This .sig in UNDER CONSTRUCTION any suggestions are appreciated, and disposed of ;)

William Tanksley

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
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On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 03:52:58 -0800, Linley Henzell wrote:
>I've had a great time working on Crawl for the last few years,
>especially with all of the feedback, support and unsolicited offers of
>assistance I've received from the online community. However... a week
>from now, on Saturday 27/3, I'm moving out to student accomodation
>closer to my university (10 minutes walk, as opposed to a 1 hour bus
>ride). This basically means the end of my role in the active development
>of Crawl, because I'm not even going to try compiling it on the old 486
>I've got for the purpose of word-processing.

I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you'll continue to suggest ideas for
it, because so far that's Crawl's strength.

>Anyone interested? If you want to have something to do with the future
>development of Crawl, please post what you have to say to the ng. Should
>I leave it open to numerous variants? Should I leave it to a single

>maintainer? Or will it just fade into history, as Omega seemed likely to
>do until recently? I don't know, but I'm interested to hear as many
>opinions as possible.

Crawl has a better chance than Omega had, because it's released under a
license which allows any programmer to modify it without asking permission.
The main reason I think Omega is coming back is that its author, Laurence
Brothers, changed its license to allow for just that.

Well, good luck to you. May you see Crawl continue to prosper!

>Linley

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
"But you shall not escape my iambics."
-- Gaius Valerius Catullus

Ciaran Hamilton

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Mar 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/23/99
to

> >I've had a great time working on Crawl for the last few years,
> >especially with all of the feedback, support and unsolicited offers of
> >assistance I've received from the online community. However... a week
> >from now, on Saturday 27/3, I'm moving out to student accomodation
> >closer to my university (10 minutes walk, as opposed to a 1 hour bus
> >ride). This basically means the end of my role in the active development
> >of Crawl, because I'm not even going to try compiling it on the old 486
> >I've got for the purpose of word-processing.
>
> I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you'll continue to suggest ideas for
> it, because so far that's Crawl's strength.

I agree wholeheartedly on this point... just because you stop making code
doesn't mean you can't take part in the development of it... after all, it's
harder to come up with ideas than to actually code them (well, sometimes),
and you were the one who started it in the first place, so you'll know the
code better than anybody else.

Or even better, why don't you edit the code at your end and then email it to
somebody who can compile it for you? (Not me, I don't have a good compiler)
That way, the ideas that you'll have can still come into play!

- Ciaran.

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Aero

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Mar 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/23/99
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Ciaran Hamilton wrote:

> Linley Henzell wrote:

>> >I've had a great time working on Crawl for the last few years,
>> >especially with all of the feedback, support and unsolicited offers of
>> >assistance I've received from the online community. However... a week
>> >from now, on Saturday 27/3, I'm moving out to student accomodation
>> >closer to my university (10 minutes walk, as opposed to a 1 hour bus
>> >ride). This basically means the end of my role in the active development
>> >of Crawl, because I'm not even going to try compiling it on the old 486
>> >I've got for the purpose of word-processing.
>>
>> I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you'll continue to suggest ideas for
>> it, because so far that's Crawl's strength.
>
>I agree wholeheartedly on this point... just because you stop making code
>doesn't mean you can't take part in the development of it... after all, it's
>harder to come up with ideas than to actually code them (well, sometimes),
>and you were the one who started it in the first place, so you'll know the
>code better than anybody else.
>
>Or even better, why don't you edit the code at your end and then email it to
>somebody who can compile it for you? (Not me, I don't have a good compiler)
>That way, the ideas that you'll have can still come into play!

Try compiling it once before you make that decision, Linley. My old
486/66 with 12 megs of physical RAM only took 45-60 minutes to compile a
whole Linux kernel, which is considerably larger than Crawl. Granted,
that was gcc running under Linux, not DJGPP running under Windoze, but
it can't hurt to try, no? (Especially since you won't have to be waking
up as early to go to class...)


--
----------
<ae...@clark.net> -- Public key and Geek Code available by finger -l.
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be proofread with the help of the mailer,
the mailer's postmaster, and if necessary, their upstream provider(s).

Justen Meltz

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Mar 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/23/99
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Greg Wooledge (wool...@kellnet.com) wrote:
: And, no offense intended, but Crawl isn't nearly as stable as Angband.
: Much of the reason for the great number of Angband variants is the
: extremely high level of "cleanliness" and the extremely low number of
: bugs in the Angband code base.

Uhm, yeah, what he said. ;-) I've looked at the code for Crawl. It's,
uhm, well... I don't think I'd like to work on it. My favorite line is:

if ((mcls == 29 || mcls == 45 || mcls == 75 || mcls == 101 || mcls == 122 ||
mcls == 132 || mcls == 146 || mcls == 171) && random2(3) != 0)

The use of some defined constants and/or enums could greatly improve
readability. Likewise, modifying the size of any of the arrays could
be a nightmare. Read Linley's comments on his site about the code. They're
pretty funny.

Crawl is probably my favorite roguelike. The fast starts and superb
randomness between games is great. For any long-term future development,
I'd probably do a complete re-write of the code.

Justen


johnny carroll norris

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Mar 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/23/99
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Justen Meltz (jme...@hpbs1975.boi.hp.com) wrote:

: Greg Wooledge (wool...@kellnet.com) wrote:
: : And, no offense intended, but Crawl isn't nearly as stable as Angband.
: : Much of the reason for the great number of Angband variants is the
: : extremely high level of "cleanliness" and the extremely low number of
: : bugs in the Angband code base.
:
: Uhm, yeah, what he said. ;-) I've looked at the code for Crawl. It's,
: uhm, well... I don't think I'd like to work on it. My favorite line is:
:
: if ((mcls == 29 || mcls == 45 || mcls == 75 || mcls == 101 || mcls == 122 ||
: mcls == 132 || mcls == 146 || mcls == 171) && random2(3) != 0)
:
: The use of some defined constants and/or enums could greatly improve
: readability. Likewise, modifying the size of any of the arrays could
: be a nightmare.

That's nothing. Here's what REALLY scares me.

bash-2.02$ grep goto *.CC *.H | grep -v gotoxy | wc -l
406

Yikes!

: Crawl is probably my favorite roguelike. The fast starts and superb


: randomness between games is great. For any long-term future development,
: I'd probably do a complete re-write of the code.

I agree with you about the rewrite. Crawl is also my favorite roguelike. The
complexity of the magic system, the various races, the skill system, and the
pantheon are what won me over. I also like the powerful artifacts with
not-so-nice side-effects, and the magical yet non-artifact weapons. I also
like that you can create them yourself. Linley had a lot of great ideas.
Hopefully he'll keep having them, even if he isn't writing the code anymore.

--
John Norris
Center for Simulation of Advanced Rockets
jno...@uiuc.edu
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/jnorris

William Tanksley

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Mar 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/23/99
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On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:49:11 GMT, Timothy Meyers wrote:
>This is sad, really, because I have found myself completely unentertained
>with all the other roguelikes as of late. On the other hand, Crawl seems

>like the most custom-friendly game since Angband, why don't we see those
>variants? After all, the bands and even the hacks to an extent have
>strived best off variants-I can't even 'member their creator's names like
>I do with Thomas and Lin.

Well... Crawl is awfully new to split into variants. It would not be
healthy, and not many programmers feel the need, since most haven't yet
explored the original world.

In addition to the fact that its code is not very high quality.

>*sigh* BTW, I just resubscribed to this group
>about a minute ago. Any good indev rls?

Hmm... Yes, I'd say that this is a great time for indev RLs. The only one
I recommend entirely is Omega, a splendid game in its own right as well as
having a promising future.

But then, I'm EXTREMELY biased, and you'll get better info by visiting
rec.games.roguelike.development and the Roguelike News page.

>-tim-

William Tanksley

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Mar 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/24/99
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On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:14:11 -0600, mr characature wrote:
>> Hmm... Yes, I'd say that this is a great time for indev RLs. The only one
>> I recommend entirely is Omega, a splendid game in its own right as well as
>> having a promising future.

>hey, i saw the link to your omega site at roguelike news for a new version but
>the link was broken.

Unfortunately, my server went down along with my provider, and it's taking
me a long time to rebuild. The current web page is at
http://dolphin.openprojects.net/Omega, but it's not complete; the only
really useful thing there is the Downloads section.

>does this new ver mean that you have started to implement
>the changes that were mentioned on this group some time ago?

To some extent -- I'm trying to constrain myself to bugfixes at first,
although there's already been some other improvements.

>if so, keeping in mind that i would be brand new to omega, should i try it
>now (assuming that i could find it somewhere) or wait until more of the
>changes are completed for my first impression?

I can certainly use more testers, so if you can tolerate a visually glitchy
game then my current release might be enjoyable, and your input is always
helpful. We've removed a lot of the bugs so far, and the next release ought
to remove even more (thanks to the hard work of two volunteers; I've hardly
done a thing, due to my school schedule).

>if no, adom and nethack can certainly keep me entertained for
>quite awhile longer.

I certainly hope they continue to do that -- they're both great games. Even
once everyone agrees Omega surpasses them they'll still be great games ;-)
;-).

Oh, also try Crawl -- it's a fun game too. Lately I've played it more than
ADOM (although I haven't had time to look at either for a long time now).

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