Moria? Other roguelikes?
Tina Hall
I've read the name 'Moria' as another roguelike on occasion.
What's it like, and do you have a link to a DOS binary (that I
can pass on to someone to get it for me)?
Any other suggestions, for roguelikes to look at?
Have tried:
Nethack/Slash'EM - played it quite a while, but the gods/
alignment system plus Boring Gehennom and a few other things keep
me away from them now.
Adom - Quests are too strict; I like to go where I want and not
having to choose one path or another.
Angband/Gumband - Levels are too large, Gumband is too confusing
to even get it started properly, with all the files to read - and
I'm willing to read one or two fairly large files.
Crawl - still playing it. Only bothersome thing about it are the
bad chances to even get started properly.
Thanks!
--
Tina the Caller - an Elder of the Resistant Necessary Godzilla
Daniel Andersen
> Hi
>
> I've read the name 'Moria' as another roguelike on occasion.
> What's it like, and do you have a link to a DOS binary (that I
> can pass on to someone to get it for me)?
Moria is what Angband was based on, so if you don't like Angband then you
probably won't like Moria either :) Its basically Angband without artifacts
or uniques i think, and with only 50 levels in the dungeon.
Daniel
Björn Bergström
news:400f0b0c$0$815$61c6...@uq-127creek-reader-01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
And it can be found here: http://www-math.bgsu.edu/%7Egrabine/moria.html
> Daniel
--
Björn Bergström
L:C++ E+ T- R+ P+ D-- G+ F:V RL-- RLA++
W:F Q+++ AI++ GFX+ !SFX RN+++ PO+ Hp- Re+ S++
Roguelike Development (http://roguelikedevelopment.org)
Bateau
." ". Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:43:00 mez
| . ` ` | in
\( )/ rec.games.roguelike.misc,
\)__. _._(/ Tina Hall
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``''
>Adom - Quests are too strict; I like to go where I want and not
>having to choose one path or another.
Plus you have to read spoilers to have a chance of completing them. This
is why ADOM should never be recommended to newbies.
>Angband/Gumband - Levels are too large, Gumband is too confusing
>to even get it started properly, with all the files to read - and
>I'm willing to read one or two fairly large files.
Try ToME (based on ZAngband). It has a lot of interesting classes and
options to make small levels etc. Right now I'm a yeek vampire symbiant.
--
.-'`-.
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||<o>| <o>`|
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.'.-' | `-. `. J J / | || _.>
/ /| | |`. \ | | |/ | ||_.-'
/ / | | | `. `. F F | |==============================
J / | | | \ L J J | | `:::::::. `:::::::.
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J | ||:._.'::|| | | |----' | | :::::::: ::::::::| .---.
J | |J:::::::|| | | | _/\ | :::::::: ::::::::| /(@ o`.
LJ | \:::::/ | | | |---'\ | | :::::::: ::::::::| | /^^^
J L | `-:-' | | | F | \ | J :::::::: ::::::::| \ . \vvv
LJ()| () | () | () | F F | \ \--._L :::::::: ::::::::| \ `--'
J \ | | | | J J \ | | :::::::: ::::::::| \ `.
\ \| | | | / / | | | :::::::: ::::::::| L \
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| `.`-.____|.-'.-' | | | <`. \ :::::::: ::::::::| | |
| | `-.______.-' | \| |_`::\ `. :::::::: ::::::::| F |
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L \| >|| `--' J |' .`::\ `.:' .::::::::/ .' F
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\| |L ` )/ )` `' '|`---// `---// `\::. \ `---// `---' .'
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`-.-' K I N G O F T H E M O N S T E R S
R Dan Henry
T.H...@railroad.robin.de (Tina Hall) declared:
>I've read the name 'Moria' as another roguelike on occasion.
>What's it like, and do you have a link to a DOS binary (that I
>can pass on to someone to get it for me)?
Moria is the roguelike on which Angband was based. It is a simpler game,
although at least in some ways it is a better game. But since you seem
to hate large levels, you probably wouldn't like Moria, either.
>Any other suggestions, for roguelikes to look at?
Let's see:
Alphaman is playable, but it's clumsy in a lot of ways. Can't actually
recommend it.
Ragnarok does a nice job of being distinctive, although I think that it
would be a better game if it had a more roguelike display for regular
play and kept the picture graphics for special things like the worlds
map, which is actually quite cool.
GearHead is shaping up into an interesting game, but it isn't very
older-equipment-friendly. I had to give up on playing it on a 166MHz
Pentium machine because the game was just too slow.
Omega is a bit strange, but so are you, so maybe it'd be a good fit. I
was never able to get into it, but some people like it.
There's Rogue itself, of course. Very plain compared to today's
roguelikes, but you might give it a try.
--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Tina Hall
> T.H...@railroad.robin.de (Tina Hall) declared:
>> I've read the name 'Moria' as another roguelike on occasion.
>> What's it like, and do you have a link to a DOS binary (that
>> I can pass on to someone to get it for me)?
> Moria is the roguelike on which Angband was based. It is a
> simpler game, although at least in some ways it is a better
> game. But since you seem to hate large levels, you probably
> wouldn't like Moria, either.
The main problem with Gumband is the keys (and too much
documentation to find out how to merely get it started with the
default keys, at least I hope I'd find that information somewhere
in there), or I'd at least have looked around a bit. Did my mail
not arrive (none from you made it here).
The autoroller doesn't seem to work properly either. After a few
retries (letting him roll some more for another character), he
doesn't automatically keep rolling but just displays the next
random set each keystroke (of 'r' or whatever that key was).
> Ragnarok does a nice job of being distinctive, although I
> think that it would be a better game if it had a more
> roguelike display for regular play and kept the picture
> graphics for special things like the worlds map, which is
> actually quite cool.
Doesn't say much about what it's like. Do you have an adress for
that?
> GearHead is shaping up into an interesting game, but it isn't
> very older-equipment-friendly. I had to give up on playing it
> on a 166MHz Pentium machine because the game was just too
> slow.
I'd not call that a roguelike, then. (If I get my hands on a
controller able to handle 4 harddrives, I'll put the 486 back
together; the present machine is too fast for some games. :( )
> Omega is a bit strange, but so are you, so maybe it'd be a
> good fit. I was never able to get into it, but some people
> like it.
Same as for Ragnarock; what exactly makes it strange, and do you
have an adress?
> There's Rogue itself, of course. Very plain compared to
> today's roguelikes, but you might give it a try.
Why not. :)
--
Tina the Archer - the Champion of the Reflecting Nonaligned Gist
David J. Grabiner
> And it can be found here: http://www-math.bgsu.edu/%7Egrabine/moria.html
That's a very old page, and may eventually disappear; my current Web
page is listed in my .signature.
Current links for PC binaries:
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/dmswaine/m552-386.zip
Linux sources:
http://packages.debian.org/moria
--
David Grabiner, grab...@alumni.princeton.edu, http://remarque.org/~grabiner
Baseball labor negotiations FAQ: http://remarque.org/~grabiner/laborfaq.html
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.
R Dan Henry
T.H...@railroad.robin.de (Tina Hall) declared:
>The main problem with Gumband is the keys (and too much
>documentation to find out how to merely get it started with the
>default keys, at least I hope I'd find that information somewhere
>in there), or I'd at least have looked around a bit. Did my mail
>not arrive (none from you made it here).
Yes, it did. I want to source dive before I respond. You were using some
keys I don't use and I don't think many others do, either, so I tried
them and there do seem to be some problems. I need to check the code to
see what's actually happening or not happening so I can update the
documentation or fix any actual bugs. The one problem with a highly
customizable UI is that rarely used combinations of options can pick up
bugs and go unnoticed for quite some time.
You'll get a detailed reply this weekend when I have time to compose
one.
>The autoroller doesn't seem to work properly either. After a few
>retries (letting him roll some more for another character), he
>doesn't automatically keep rolling but just displays the next
>random set each keystroke (of 'r' or whatever that key was).
I've been using point-based character generation pretty consistently,
mainly because it's quicker. I'll check on this too and see if I can
duplicate that effect.
>> Ragnarok does a nice job of being distinctive, although I
>> think that it would be a better game if it had a more
>> roguelike display for regular play and kept the picture
>> graphics for special things like the worlds map, which is
>> actually quite cool.
>
>Doesn't say much about what it's like. Do you have an adress for
>that?
It's a pseudo-Norse setting, as one might guess from the title. Mainly
"wilderness" rather than dungeon, at least the early part. Ranged
attacks are somewhat limited in usefulness due to the display (big map
of whole "level" shows little icons, including letters for monsters, but
with no "look" command, you can't properly see them until they get into
the little map with a close-up view of your character and surrounding.
The plus side is that the graphics actually look pretty decent. I don't
consider that worth the trade off.) You can mouse it, although the
keyboard also works and there are relatively few commands. Some of the
monsters can be pretty darned annoyingly difficult to deal with and it
seems to me it's a tough game. Consequently, I can't really comment on
features of the later game.
http://txe.swa.com/roguelike/download.htm is a download page that claims
to have it. I haven't checked it and the site I originally got it from
appears to have gone the way of all bits. Rogue is also available there.
You could also pick up the other's I've mentioned there and some I
haven't. It has Rogue's Quest, for example, which is graphical and it's
main feature was the ability to write your own dungeon. Unfortunately,
it's really very simple and I never found it to be fun to be.
http://txe.swa.com/roguelike/files/rag25.zip if you need a direct URL.
>> GearHead is shaping up into an interesting game, but it isn't
>> very older-equipment-friendly. I had to give up on playing it
>> on a 166MHz Pentium machine because the game was just too
>> slow.
>
>I'd not call that a roguelike, then. (If I get my hands on a
>controller able to handle 4 harddrives, I'll put the 486 back
>together; the present machine is too fast for some games. :( )
I hardly think "written for primitive hardware" is a defining feature of
roguelikes. A fairly advanced NPC control and LOS/FOV calculations had
been implemented, but not optimized. I really should try a newer version
and see if it's playable again. Of course, if you can't stand giant
robots or anime-style adventures, the genre may turn you off.
>> Omega is a bit strange, but so are you, so maybe it'd be a
>> good fit. I was never able to get into it, but some people
>> like it.
>
>Same as for Ragnarock; what exactly makes it strange, and do you
>have an adress?
Well, for a start, the inventory system. If you can get past that,
you'll probably be okay with it. I think.
I think I'll quote someone else's review here, since I never could get
the hand of Omega. From http://txe.swa.com/roguelike/review.htm#omega --
: Omega popped up a couple years after Moria/Angband and introduced
: outdoor travel, guilds, an advanced inventory system,
: hands-on tactical combat management, more intricate deity alignments,
: and a large number of static locations.
:
: With its preconstructed towns, villages, castles, and wilderness,
: Omega plays much more like an adventure game (like King's
: Quest) than Angband or NetHack. It was the first Roguelike game with a
: significant plot. This was not really a plus in my
: book, since I normally prefer "plotless" games where I can explore
: random worlds (I'm an Evolutionist rather than a
: Creationist).
:
: For the above and other nitpicky reasons, I never really got into
: Omega. Usually I spent most of my time fighting monsters in
: the primary town's arena. Omega seemed very buggy whenever I ventured
: into the dungeons, and I found it very easy to die
: while wandering in the wilderness, so I resigned myself to the short
: life as a gladiator. Also, Omega's interface is not as smooth
: as that of NetHack or Angband, most notably in its overly complex
: inventory management.
So, an unfair evaluation would be "ADOM with a bizarre inventory
system", I guess. But I'm hoping someone who like Omega will provide a
report of what's good about it.
R
>>>Ragnarok does a nice job of being distinctive, although I
>>>think that it would be a better game if it had a more
>>>roguelike display for regular play and kept the picture
>>>graphics for special things like the worlds map, which is
>>>actually quite cool.
>>
>>Doesn't say much about what it's like. Do you have an adress for
>>that?
>
>
> It's a pseudo-Norse setting, as one might guess from the title. Mainly
> "wilderness" rather than dungeon, at least the early part. Ranged
> attacks are somewhat limited in usefulness due to the display (big map
> of whole "level" shows little icons, including letters for monsters, but
> with no "look" command, you can't properly see them until they get into
> the little map with a close-up view of your character and surrounding.
> The plus side is that the graphics actually look pretty decent. I don't
> consider that worth the trade off.) You can mouse it, although the
> keyboard also works and there are relatively few commands. Some of the
> monsters can be pretty darned annoyingly difficult to deal with and it
> seems to me it's a tough game. Consequently, I can't really comment on
> features of the later game.
It might be affected by the fact that it was the first roguelike game
I played, but I like it. (I wondered why the key you have to press
to select all scrolls in some dialog was '?', not something like
Alt+S...) There is a "look" command, you can see what the faraway
monsters are (i.e. you can read their names). I like its interface: if
the game just uses large icons, it is impossible to view the whole area
at once, and if the game just uses small icons, there is no way to have
nice graphics. In the Ragnarok interface, we have both nice graphics of
nearby objects and we see the whole area.
The game is quite unbalanced. There is a certain item which is
extremely overpowered, if you find it and can use it effectively,
the game will be very easy. There is also a way to become permanently
extremely fast (and you can get it quite early). Of course, you can try
to play a game without using these unbalancing features, or limit them
somehow --- I have not tried it yet, so I don't know how interesting
would the game be. I think it would be OK.
Tina Hall
> T.H...@railroad.robin.de (Tina Hall) declared:
>> The main problem with Gumband is the keys (and too much
>> documentation to find out how to merely get it started with
>> the default keys, at least I hope I'd find that information
>> somewhere in there), or I'd at least have looked around a
>> bit. Did my mail not arrive (none from you made it here).
> Yes, it did. I want to source dive before I respond. You were
> using some keys I don't use and I don't think many others do,
> either, so I tried them and there do seem to be some problems.
I used the keys that the documentation told me to use. If it had
said something else, I'd have used something else.
I just want to be able to look at the game without first having
to define the keys I might like to use, and the default keys
should be in the documentation so I can find out what each key
does.
> You'll get a detailed reply this weekend when I have time to
> compose one.
Ok. :)
[Ragnarok]
> [...] The plus side is that the graphics actually look pretty
> decent. I don't consider that worth the trade off.)
Is that still a roguelike when it doesn't have proper ASCII
graphic available?
> You can mouse it, although the keyboard also works and there
> are relatively few commands.
I'd really prefer to do it all with keyboard rather than having
to grab the mouse for some things.
[...]
> http://txe.swa.com/roguelike/files/rag25.zip if you need a
> direct URL.
Thanks!
[GearHead]
>>> I had to give up on playing it on a 166MHz Pentium machine
>>> because the game was just too slow.
>>
>> I'd not call that a roguelike, then. (If I get my hands on a
>> controller able to handle 4 harddrives, I'll put the 486 back
>> together; the present machine is too fast for some games. :(
>> )
> I hardly think "written for primitive hardware" is a defining
> feature of roguelikes.
No, but 'still works on it' is, IMO.
> Of course, if you can't stand giant robots or anime-style
> adventures, the genre may turn you off.
Well, I don't care about robots and really don't like animes and
anything to do with it.
>>> Omega is a bit strange, but so are you, so maybe it'd be a
>>> good fit. I was never able to get into it, but some people
>>> like it.
>>
>> Same as for Ragnarock; what exactly makes it strange, and do
>> you have an adress?
> Well, for a start, the inventory system. If you can get past
> that, you'll probably be okay with it. I think.
[...]
> So, an unfair evaluation would be "ADOM with a bizarre
> inventory system", I guess. But I'm hoping someone who like
> Omega will provide a report of what's good about it.
Did sound a bit like Adom to me, too. :) Now I'm curious about
the inventory system, though.
--
Tina the Arsonist - a Follower of the Relatively Narrow Gaolbird
Erik Inge Bolsø
>> that, you'll probably be okay with it. I think.
>[...]
>> So, an unfair evaluation would be "ADOM with a bizarre
>> inventory system", I guess. But I'm hoping someone who like
>> Omega will provide a report of what's good about it.
>
>Did sound a bit like Adom to me, too. :) Now I'm curious about
>the inventory system, though.
Hm. Think of it like a cross between ADOM and Crawl for the general idea.
It has a sense of humour, and several different ways to win. Most ways are
obvious, a few are not.
http://www.alcyone.com/binaries/omega/omega-0.80.2-msdos.zip
( xposted to alt.games.omega )
--
Erik I. Bolsř | email: <knan at mo.himolde.no>
The UNIX philosophy basically involves giving you enough rope to
hang yourself. And then a couple of feet more, just to be sure.
Tina Hall
Now that's a weird name. <g>
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Tina Hall wrote:
>> R Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> shouted:
>>> [...] But I'm hoping someone who like Omega will provide a
>>> report of what's good about it.
>>
>> Did sound a bit like Adom to me, too. :) Now I'm curious
>> about the inventory system, though.
> Hm. Think of it like a cross between ADOM and Crawl for the
> general idea. It has a sense of humour, and several different
> ways to win. Most ways are obvious, a few are not.
> http://www.alcyone.com/binaries/omega/omega-0.80.2-msdos.zip
Thanks. Btw, what's this supposed DOS file doing with such a long
filename, and 3(?!) dots, too? <g>
> ( xposted to alt.games.omega )
No good, as I don't have that newsgroup yet, so I'll not see any
replies unless they turn up here, too. (Am going to order it,
though.)
--
Tina the Archer - the Favourite Plaything of the Ritual Noiseless Gore
Erik Inge Bolsø
>=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Erik_Inge_Bols=F8?= <kn...@mo.himolde.no> screamed:
>
>Now that's a weird name. <g>
Heh. Scream at your newsreader, that's a perfectly good name with a
slashed o in it :)
>> ( xposted to alt.games.omega )
>
>No good, as I don't have that newsgroup yet, so I'll not see any
>replies unless they turn up here, too. (Am going to order it,
>though.)
Well, rgrm has about a hundred times the traffic, at least, so don't
expect a very interesting stay in alt.games.omega. You're welcome to
create some traffic, of course.
--
Erik I. Bolsø | email: <knan at mo.himolde.no>
Paul Murray
> Angband/Gumband - Levels are too large
Several Angband types now have the option to always generate smaller
levels, which I think makes them 3x3 screens rather than 4x4, if
that helps.
Joseph Hewitt
> GearHead is shaping up into an interesting game, but it isn't very
> older-equipment-friendly. I had to give up on playing it on a 166MHz
> Pentium machine because the game was just too slow.
Actually, my main development computer is a P166. I should mention
though that in the past I've played through ADOM's temple of mana on
an Amiga 4000, so my tolerance for slow gaming may be greater than
most...
- Joseph Hewitt
--
DeadCold > http://www.geocities.com/pyrrho12/programming/deadcold/index.html
GearHead > http://www.geocities.com/pyrrho12/programming/gearhead/index.html
Tina Hall
No, as that's still too large. 1*1 to 1*2 or thereabouts is good,
like Nethack or Crawl. The important thing is that I still see
each square with the view of the whole map. Angband's whole-
level-map is plain useless. How am I supposed to find my way
around if it doesn't clearly tell where I've been or if I might
have missed a corner on the other end of the level? A scrollable
map would at least remove that problem.
Smaller levels are nicer to play with, though. The Adom I tried
has some bug that it'll generate the dungeon as large as I've got
lines on the screen, so at first with 43 lines, and the save
games of such games can't start with less. I changed the lines
for Adom to 25, as that are much nicer levels.
--
Tina the Shatterer - a Priest of the Regular Neighbourly Gratification
R Dan Henry
T.H...@railroad.robin.de (Tina Hall) declared:
>The autoroller doesn't seem to work properly either. After a few
>retries (letting him roll some more for another character), he
>doesn't automatically keep rolling but just displays the next
>random set each keystroke (of 'r' or whatever that key was).
After a certain number of tries, the autoroller gives up. However, I can
certainly get several characters rolled up with it, even with the most
demanding request one may reasonably enter (3 stats at maximum).
Unfortunately, the autoroller will allow you to enter a request it
cannot grant (like all 6 stats at maximum).
I have not been able to duplicate this, but I didn't try very hard. If
it comes up again, I should like to know: what race/class combo you were
creating, what stats you asked for, how many rerolls you did before that
happened and what the counter for the number of rolls read at that
point.
R Dan Henry
T.H...@railroad.robin.de (Tina Hall) declared:
>Paul Murray <pa...@murray.net> bellowed:
>> In article <5475...@railroad.robin.de>, Tina Hall wrote:
>
>>> Angband/Gumband - Levels are too large
>
>> Several Angband types now have the option to always generate
>> smaller levels, which I think makes them 3x3 screens rather
>> than 4x4, if that helps.
>
>No, as that's still too large. 1*1 to 1*2 or thereabouts is good,
>like Nethack or Crawl. The important thing is that I still see
>each square with the view of the whole map. Angband's whole-
>level-map is plain useless. How am I supposed to find my way
>around if it doesn't clearly tell where I've been or if I might
>have missed a corner on the other end of the level? A scrollable
>map would at least remove that problem.
Try the "L" command, it let's you view the whole level one screen at a
time.
Martin Read
>Smaller levels are nicer to play with, though. The Adom I tried
>has some bug that it'll generate the dungeon as large as I've got
>lines on the screen, so at first with 43 lines, and the save
>games of such games can't start with less. I changed the lines
>for Adom to 25, as that are much nicer levels.
TTBOMK, all ADOMs do that, because Thomas is a buffoon.
m.
--
\_\/_/| Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\ / | we are few / and far between / i was thinking about her skin / love
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------+ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Ribbons"
Vadim Gaidukevich
You wrote on 24 Jan 2004 20:48:21 -0800:
>> Pentium machine because the game was just too slow.
JH> Actually, my main development computer is a P166. I should mention
JH> though that in the past I've played through ADOM's temple of mana on
JH> an Amiga 4000, so my tolerance for slow gaming may be greater than
JH> most...
Avanor requiring at least 300Mhz to play in whole.
on p166 it will really turn-based roguelike game :-)
Vadim Gaidukevich
Avanor, the Land of Mystery
www.avanor.com