Roguelike creation kit??
urg...@nospamplease.tumsan.fi
seen some minor references to such an idea but nothing concrete.
I think it could be done pretty simply. A map editor (including random map
options like how many rooms on average, size, etc) would be the main thing.
A monster editor would be very simple to make. Same for weapons and armor
etc. Scrolls and special items in general may be a bit more complicated,
because soemtimes very unusual effects are desired, but an editor based on
nethack's system for example, would be perfectly sufficient, even though
it might not be possible to make a Scroll of Turn All Walls in 50 sq radius
into Statues.
NPC dialogues etc are a no-brainer, if you're happy to settle with the kind
of interaction that has so far been seen in roguelikes.
And keeping with roguelike traditions, "plot" is easy to implement. The story
is in NPC monologues, scrolls, etc, and the technical aspects are limited
pretty much to "if player does not have Orb of Cave Entering, cave
door=closed".
I can't code, but it seems to be that if you could just take for example
nethack's underlying code and UI, and chop out all the actual details,
making this editor would be pretty straightforward. I don't see any major
obstacles, but again I'm no coder.
So maybe you couldn't make anything really technically original,
but arent roguelikes pretty technically unoriginal? I mean from a player's
point of view I don't see any _technical_ differences between omega, adom,
and nethack, to name but a few. Except for UI, but I can live with a
roguelike creation kit that is strictly bound to any of these fine games' UI.
all this because i cant code, and i lament the fact that there are virtually
no sci-fi roguelikes, and even less good ones. i would love to remake
wasteland as a roguelike, or something in that vein.
Of course I could try learning to code, but if this idea is as simple (well,
okay its not simple, but it doesnt seem very tricky) as I think, then I
think it might greatly benefit the roguelike community. I'm sure im not the
only one yearning for a good, complex, multi-stranded plot, with lots of
NPCs and endings, etc. adom and omega are great, but they do have some
lackings and also they just arent post-apocalyptic ;)
Urgrue
Andreas Koch
urg...@nospamplease.tumsan.fi wrote:
> Has anyone ever thought of making a roguelike game construction kit? I've
> seen some minor references to such an idea but nothing concrete.
Well... most roguelikes are roguelike construction kits as they are
open source and often widely configurable with text files....
--
Andreas
Who doesn't live can never die
Zeet
<9ous9c$pv4$1...@tron.sci.fi>.
>Has anyone ever thought of making a roguelike game construction kit? I've
>seen some minor references to such an idea but nothing concrete.
Try: www.adom.de/misc/qhack.php3
It's not a construction kit, more of a how-to. But beware, Herr
Biskup has much advice for the budding rl-programmer including:
"Be sure that you want to spend the better part of
several years or your spare time to get the game
finished. Starting a project is simple, getting it
done is the difficult part."
>[snip] i lament the fact that there are virtually
>no sci-fi roguelikes, and even less good ones.
I'd agree on this point. Let's see: there's Alphaman I suppose, and
Dead Cold is looking ok these days but is still far from a complete
game. Is there a sci-fi angband variant or any other rl I'm missing?
--
_-_|\ | Posted by Zeet <tim--at--rucc-net-au> |
/ \ | I live in sunny Melbourne, home of many roguelike gamers.|
\_.-. / |----------------------------------------------------------|
@ | "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime, doubly so." |
v | Ford Prefect, HGttG Broadcast/Book/Tape/Record/Episode 1 |
Kev The Chiller
> Try: www.adom.de/misc/qhack.php3
[cut]
let me thank you very much for that url - me and a friend of mine have
been trying to write our own roguelike named "284" for a few days in
C++, and that qHack homepage is very helpful, I think (we _started_
without qHack's help)
a good "roguelike DevKit" would be rogue, I think...
because it's more simple than most rogue_likes_ ..
--
Iff yuoo keell zee Veezerd, yuoo get prumuted tu demee-gud.
Bork Bork Bork!
DarkGod
>
> urg...@nospamplease.tumsan.fi wrote:
>
> > Has anyone ever thought of making a roguelike game construction kit? I've
> > seen some minor references to such an idea but nothing concrete.
>
> Well... most roguelikes are roguelike construction kits as they are
> open source and often widely configurable with text files....
are text-file configurable ?
--
-----------------------+----------------------------------------------
DarkGod comes from | Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards
the hells for YOU ! :) | because they are subtle and quick to anger.
-----------------------+----------------------------------------------
Pe W Olorin YSo L:50 DL:696 A+++ R+++ Sp++ w:Mage Staff of Mana(240%)
Pe*/PM*(Cr) D H- D c++ f- PV s- TT- d++ P++ M+ C- S++ I+++ So++ B/-
ac- GHB- SQ+ RQ V+++ F:Mage playing Mage-like(see Pernangband Sorcerors)
Andreas Koch
DarkGod wrote:
>>>Has anyone ever thought of making a roguelike game construction kit? I've
>>>seen some minor references to such an idea but nothing concrete.
>>>
>>Well... most roguelikes are roguelike construction kits as they are
>>open source and often widely configurable with text files....
>>
> Open source yeah, but apart *bands what others(widely known)
> are text-file configurable ?
Well.... source code is in text files >:}
William Tanksley
>Andreas Koch a écrit:
>> urg...@nospamplease.tumsan.fi wrote:
>> > Has anyone ever thought of making a roguelike game construction kit? I've
>> > seen some minor references to such an idea but nothing concrete.
>> Well... most roguelikes are roguelike construction kits as they are
>> open source and often widely configurable with text files....
>Open source yeah, but apart *bands what others(widely known)
>are text-file configurable ?
Omega doesn't have as many of its things in text files as does Angband
(although it likely will soon), but it does have a LOT. And Omega is
generally considered to be more "atmospheric" -- there's more of a feel of
being in a real world.
>DarkGod comes from | Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
David Damerell
>>Open source yeah, but apart *bands what others(widely known)
>>are text-file configurable ?
>Well.... source code is in text files >:}
I don't think the real problem is with text files; not much divides
N:120:Hill orc
G:o:u
I:110:13d9:20:32:30
W:8:1:0:25
B:HIT:HURT:1d10
F:MALE |
F:FRIENDS | DROP_60 |
F:OPEN_DOOR | BASH_DOOR |
F:EVIL | ORC
D:He is a hardy well-weathered survivor.
and
MON("hill orc", S_ORC,
LVL(2, 9, 10, 0, -4), (G_GENO|G_LGROUP|2),
A(ATTK(AT_WEAP, AD_PHYS, 1, 6),
NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK),
SIZ(1000, 200, 0, MS_ORC, MZ_HUMAN), 0, 0, M1_HUMANOID|M1_OMNIVORE,
M2_ORC|M2_STRONG|M2_GREEDY|M2_JEWELS|M2_COLLECT,
M3_INFRAVISIBLE|M3_INFRAVISION, CLR_YELLOW),
in terms of ease of editing; one has the stupid characteristic that the
description is hidden away elsewhere, but then the other has the stupid
characteristic that it includes a hard-coded monster number. They're both
pretty cryptic if you don't read the comment at the start of the file.
The problem - and it is a problem - is that you require a C compiler to
implement your changes to the latter...
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
fre...@nospam.tumsan.fi
to make manifest the roguelike in my head, does anyone want to give me some
pointers?
-tips on good books on programming
-what programming language is best (loaded question, i know...)
-what roguelike to use as my guinea pig (im thinking omega cause its
imho the best, and has the best features, or else adom, but thats closed
source still, but how does omega's source code look, to a beginner, compared
to other roguelikes?)
-if in some years i actually did manage to turn omega into an original
roguelike of my own, does anyone have a problem with that? i know its gpl
but that doesnt mean someone might not be unhappy with me using its code...
(im not familiar at all with the gpl etiquette, if there is such a thing)
fred
DarkGod
> N:120:Hill orc
> G:o:u
> I:110:13d9:20:32:30
> W:8:1:0:25
> B:HIT:HURT:1d10
> F:MALE |
> F:FRIENDS | DROP_60 |
> F:OPEN_DOOR | BASH_DOOR |
> F:EVIL | ORC
> D:He is a hardy well-weathered survivor.
>
> and
>
> MON("hill orc", S_ORC,
> LVL(2, 9, 10, 0, -4), (G_GENO|G_LGROUP|2),
> A(ATTK(AT_WEAP, AD_PHYS, 1, 6),
> NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK, NO_ATTK),
> SIZ(1000, 200, 0, MS_ORC, MZ_HUMAN), 0, 0, M1_HUMANOID|M1_OMNIVORE,
> M2_ORC|M2_STRONG|M2_GREEDY|M2_JEWELS|M2_COLLECT,
> M3_INFRAVISIBLE|M3_INFRAVISION, CLR_YELLOW),
> in terms of ease of editing; one has the stupid characteristic that the
But thats not a pb, we dont share the same meaning of free or fun :)
> description is hidden away elsewhere, but then the other has the stupid
> characteristic that it includes a hard-coded monster number. They're both
It is hard coded if the source depends of it, which it doesnt.
R Dan Henry
<fre...@nospam.tumsan.fi> transmitted thus:
>so, since it looks like im just gonna have to start learning to code in order
>to make manifest the roguelike in my head, does anyone want to give me some
>pointers?
>-tips on good books on programming
You mean to learn the language or on programming techniques in
general? There are tons of specific-language books, but I'd like some
pointers to good general programming and game programming advice. If
you end up learning C or C++, there are FAQS available. You might also
try reading the appropriate newsgroup(s).
>-what programming language is best (loaded question, i know...)
That depends. Not only on all sorts of objective factors, but on
personal tastes as well.
>-what roguelike to use as my guinea pig (im thinking omega cause its
>imho the best, and has the best features, or else adom, but thats closed
>source still, but how does omega's source code look, to a beginner, compared
>to other roguelikes?)
If you want to model your game on Omega, learn whatever language Omega
is written in. Start by modifying Omega. If you run into trouble, ask
questions. The nice thing about roguelikes is that it's pretty easy to
find the maintainers of actively developed games and they tend to be
friendly and helpful if you aren't rude.
>-if in some years i actually did manage to turn omega into an original
>roguelike of my own, does anyone have a problem with that? i know its gpl
>but that doesnt mean someone might not be unhappy with me using its code...
>(im not familiar at all with the gpl etiquette, if there is such a thing)
Well, what are you planning to do that could make someone unhappy? I
mean, unless you are planning to do something really offensive with
it, no problem. You don't release code unless you're willing to see it
used.
--
R. Dan Henry, Emperor of the Universe
rdan...@earthlink.net
I salute our many brave spammers who continued
business as usual in the face of tragedy.
R Dan Henry
<fre...@nospam.tumsan.fi> transmitted thus:
>so, since it looks like im just gonna have to start learning to code in order
>to make manifest the roguelike in my head, does anyone want to give me some
>pointers?
One more thing I forgot: you should probably switch over to
rec.games.roguelike.development if you want to ask development
questions.
Andreas Koch
fre...@nospam.tumsan.fi wrote:
> so, since it looks like im just gonna have to start learning to code in order
> to make manifest the roguelike in my head, does anyone want to give me some
> pointers?
Well, i fully agree to Dan (if i decoded the name right ;) ).
A nice way to learn programming: get a sufficent big and
interesting programm, a compiler, and compile it.
Once you are that far, read the code, change it, and try
what effect it has.
change
cprintf("You are a cheater")
to
cprintf("You are a cool guy!")
change
/* heal 100 HPs */
c_ptr->hp+=100;
to
/* heal 1000 HPs */
c_ptr->hp+=1000;
you will learn how stuff works, this way.
> -what programming language is best (loaded question, i know...)
Delphi. Unfortunately all Roquelikes seem to be written in C, which
is about the worst existing language, so you'll have to use that ;)
> -if in some years i actually did manage to turn omega into an original
> roguelike of my own, does anyone have a problem with that? i know its gpl
> but that doesnt mean someone might not be unhappy with me using its code...
> (im not familiar at all with the gpl etiquette, if there is such a thing)
Well, if no one should modifiy the source, why release it?
David Damerell
[You might want to take this to rec.games.roguelike.development.]
>so, since it looks like im just gonna have to start learning to code in order
>to make manifest the roguelike in my head, does anyone want to give me some
>pointers?
It will take you years of your life to do anything worthwhile. :-(
>-tips on good books on programming
>-what programming language is best (loaded question, i know...)
Lots of people will tell you C++, or Delphi, or Java, or Python, or
whatever else their CS classes have been about.
Curiously, all major roguelikes are written in C or in a subset of C++
which is effectively C.
>-if in some years i actually did manage to turn omega into an original
>roguelike of my own, does anyone have a problem with that? i know its gpl
>but that doesnt mean someone might not be unhappy with me using its code...
I would hope that the intention of GPLing it was to positively encourage
you to build on it.
Archibald
says...
> Has anyone ever thought of making a roguelike game construction kit? I've
> seen some minor references to such an idea but nothing concrete.
> I think it could be done pretty simply. A map editor (including random map
> options like how many rooms on average, size, etc) would be the main thing.
> A monster editor would be very simple to make. Same for weapons and armor
> etc. Scrolls and special items in general may be a bit more complicated,
> because soemtimes very unusual effects are desired, but an editor based on
> nethack's system for example, would be perfectly sufficient, even though
> it might not be possible to make a Scroll of Turn All Walls in 50 sq radius
> into Statues.
> NPC dialogues etc are a no-brainer, if you're happy to settle with the kind
> of interaction that has so far been seen in roguelikes.
You may try Rogue Quest (http://www.rogaliki.prv.pl), but I'm afraid you
will be *very* dissapointed.
Archibald
William Tanksley
>so, since it looks like im just gonna have to start learning to code in order
>to make manifest the roguelike in my head, does anyone want to give me some
>pointers?
Go for it! :-) Roguelike programming is a great way to get started.
>-tips on good books on programming
Hmm... No. Sorry. I learned by typing in and modifying the BASIC code
in magazines. When it came time to learn C (the language of Roguelikes),
I just read "C for Programmers", an excellent but short book.
>-what programming language is best (loaded question, i know...)
C is the best for working with the current crop of Roguelikes. C
generally isn't a bad start anyhow; it won't brain-damage you like BASIC
will.
>-what roguelike to use as my guinea pig (im thinking omega cause its imho
>the best, and has the best features, or else adom, but thats closed source
>still, but how does omega's source code look, to a beginner, compared to
>other roguelikes?)
Hmm... Omega is in some ways very well written and compact, but I
wouldn't recommend its current source to a beginner. At the same time,
with some guidance it would probably be suitable. The problem is that
some of Omega's code has hidden surprises and assumptions. It would be
fine if you're guided, but hard if you were thrown in on your own.
I started with Angband. I still think that it's one of the better
roguelikes for a newbie to program with; most changes will affect only the
locations you intend to change.
>-if in some years i actually did manage to turn omega into an original
>roguelike of my own, does anyone have a problem with that? i know its gpl
>but that doesnt mean someone might not be unhappy with me using its code...
>(im not familiar at all with the gpl etiquette, if there is such a thing)
Yes, there is a very definite etiquette to gpl and open source projects
(BTW, Omega is LGPL, not GPL). It's considered polite to try to work with
the existing project, if any, before you start off on your own; only if
the existing maintainer proves to be incorrigable do you split off and
form your own project.
Please email me if you'd like to be added to the Omega development group's
top-secret mailing list ;-). There you can see what we're doing, how it
fits into your ideas, and how you could possibly help us get closer to
something that's useful for you (including assigning you small projects
hopefully appropriate to your level of understanding).
>fred
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
fre...@tumsan.fi
> (BTW, Omega is LGPL, not GPL).
yes, i noticed that later on, my mistake.
> It's considered polite to try to work with
> the existing project, if any, before you start off on your own; only if
> the existing maintainer proves to be incorrigable do you split off and
> form your own project.
well, what i want to do is something quite different. i forget if i mentioned it
here or in r.g.r.development, but i want to make a post-apocalyptic roguelike.
not just omega with extra features/etc, but a rather drastic change, and thus a
completely different game.
I doubt the entire omega devteam is gonna now go "heey yeah, lets do a complete
rewrite!", so presumably this should be a completely separate project from the
start.
> Please email me if you'd like to be added to the Omega development group's
> top-secret mailing list ;-). There you can see what we're doing, how it
> fits into your ideas, and how you could possibly help us get closer to
> something that's useful for you (including assigning you small projects
> hopefully appropriate to your level of understanding).
thanks for the offer. i would love to help but, as has probably been revealed
by now, i cannot code at all. i am going to try to learn, but its a long
project, and id also like to get my post-apocalyptic roguelike made, so
for starters i was thinking of just copy-pasting omega code and replacing/tweaking
things, to swap omega over to a completely different setting with new items,
monsters, quests, maps, etc. this i can just about manage, or so it seems based on
my preliminary little experiments.
i have a few friends that have at least some coding ability, who will be able to
help me out when it comes time to do more serious changes.
if you and the rest of the omega devteam would feel annoyed if i did this, just
say so. i dont want to annoy the people who are practically my idols in the
roguelike world.
Sheldon Simms
<fre...@tumsan.fi>:
> William Tanksley <wtan...@dolphin.openprojects.net> wrote:
>> (BTW, Omega is LGPL, not GPL).
>
> yes, i noticed that later on, my mistake.
>
>> It's considered polite to try to work with the existing project, if
>> any, before you start off on your own; only if the existing maintainer
>> proves to be incorrigable do you split off and form your own project.
>
> well, what i want to do is something quite different ...so presumably
> this should be a completely separate project from the start.
I agree with you. You should take the code and modify it however you
want to.
>> Please email me if you'd like to be added to the Omega development
>> group's top-secret mailing list ;-). There you can see what we're
>> doing, how it fits into your ideas, and how you could possibly help us
>> get closer to something that's useful for you (including assigning you
>> small projects hopefully appropriate to your level of understanding).
>
> if you and the rest of the omega devteam would feel annoyed if i did this,
> just say so. i dont want to annoy the people who are practically my
> idols in the roguelike world.
I wouldn't be annoyed and I hope no one else would be either. There is
a clear difference between wanting to improve the current game and
wanting to make a different game. Do what you want to and have fun.
I'd like to play your game.
--
Sheldon Simms / she...@semanticedge.com
William Tanksley
>William Tanksley <wtan...@dolphin.openprojects.net> wrote:
>> It's considered polite to try to work with
>> the existing project, if any, before you start off on your own; only if
>> the existing maintainer proves to be incorrigable do you split off and
>> form your own project.
>well, what i want to do is something quite different. i forget if i
>mentioned it here or in r.g.r.development, but i want to make a
>post-apocalyptic roguelike. not just omega with extra features/etc, but a
>rather drastic change, and thus a completely different game. I doubt the
>entire omega devteam is gonna now go "heey yeah, lets do a complete
>rewrite!", so presumably this should be a completely separate project from
>the start.
Grin. Well, you're partially right; I don't want to replace the current
world of Omega with a completely different one; however, I do want to gain
worlds which could possibly be fit into Omega.
Right now, a couple of the dev team members are adding features which will
make maps completely customizable without having to touch source code.
Once this is finished, your project will become a lot easier. However, I
can't command anything to be finished, so there's no real knowing.
>> Please email me if you'd like to be added to the Omega development group's
>> top-secret mailing list ;-). There you can see what we're doing, how it
>> fits into your ideas, and how you could possibly help us get closer to
>> something that's useful for you (including assigning you small projects
>> hopefully appropriate to your level of understanding).
>thanks for the offer. i would love to help but, as has probably been
>revealed by now, i cannot code at all. i am going to try to learn, but its
>a long project, and id also like to get my post-apocalyptic roguelike
>made, so for starters i was thinking of just copy-pasting omega code and
>replacing/tweaking things, to swap omega over to a completely different
>setting with new items, monsters, quests, maps, etc. this i can just about
>manage, or so it seems based on my preliminary little experiments.
Yes, I believe you could. I do invite you to wait just a while for the
new map code, which will be a lot more flexible; once it's done, we'll be
able to share maps and such. There are also a lot of other really
impressive internal features in the development version (that is, features
a user would probably never notice, but which make programming it a LOT
simpler).
>i have a few friends that have at least some coding ability, who will be
>able to help me out when it comes time to do more serious changes. if you
>and the rest of the omega devteam would feel annoyed if i did this, just
>say so. i dont want to annoy the people who are practically my idols in
>the roguelike world.
No annoyance at all. Have a blast! Let us know if there's anything we
can do to help -- the invitation to join the dev team is still open, but
never obligatory. I hope we work together, though; Omega already has
"technological" trappings in its story, so the changes you make could be
useful to Omega, even if the maps and basic game aren't.
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Kev The Chiller
William Tanksley wrote:
> On 29 Sep 2001 15:13:46 GMT, fre...@nospam.tumsan.fi wrote:
>>so, since it looks like im just gonna have to start learning to code in order
>>to make manifest the roguelike in my head, does anyone want to give me some
>>pointers?
>
> Go for it! :-) Roguelike programming is a great way to get started.
>
>>-tips on good books on programming
>
> Hmm... No. Sorry. I learned by typing in and modifying the BASIC code
> in magazines. When it came time to learn C (the language of Roguelikes),
> I just read "C for Programmers", an excellent but short book.
>
>>-what programming language is best (loaded question, i know...)
>
> C is the best for working with the current crop of Roguelikes. C
not that I wouldn't like C, but I think that C++ would be even better..
since it's OO :)
(just my .2$, based on my current experience)
--
There is no signature.
William Tanksley
>William Tanksley wrote:
>>>-what programming language is best (loaded question, i know...)
>> C is the best for working with the current crop of Roguelikes. C
>not that I wouldn't like C, but I think that C++ would be even better..
>since it's OO :)
>(just my .2$, based on my current experience)
I've been working with C++ for a while now at work, and have enjoyed the
experience. However, C is _still_ the language of modern roguelikes, and
C++ is _still_ not an OO language (I'm kidding a bit).
My recommendation stands, especially if he wants to get into Omega.
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
David Damerell
>not that I wouldn't like C, but I think that C++ would be even better..
>since it's OO :)
Here we go again. OO is not the holy grail; it's not some kind of magic
pixie dust that you wave over your program and it automatically makes it
better. Furthermore, even if OO techniques will be of benefit to you, it's
perfectly possible to use them in a non-OO language; for instance,
monsters and items are typically treated as 'objects' in roguelikes, even
if it is done by means of structs and pointers.
Kev The Chiller
> William Tanksley <wtan...@dolphin.openprojects.net> wrote:
>> (BTW, Omega is LGPL, not GPL).
>
> yes, i noticed that later on, my mistake.
>
>> It's considered polite to try to work with
>> the existing project, if any, before you start off on your own; only if
>> the existing maintainer proves to be incorrigable do you split off and
>> form your own project.
>
> well, what i want to do is something quite different. i forget if i mentioned it
> here or in r.g.r.development, but i want to make a post-apocalyptic roguelike.
good luck! a friend of mine && me are trying to write a middle-age
roguelike with some of today's features (from scratch ..)
could you please let me know when you have something (_something_) done
and mail me ke...@freeshell.org?
[cut]
uuhm, but the idea of an roguelike creation kit ain't bad..
what _EXACTLY_ shalt such a kit provide?
Kev The Chiller
> Kev The Chiller <ke...@freeshell.org> wrote:
>>not that I wouldn't like C, but I think that C++ would be even better..
>>since it's OO :)
>
> Here we go again. OO is not the holy grail; it's not some kind of magic
it sure ain't the holy grail, but if you use it right, you might save
some time:)
> pixie dust that you wave over your program and it automatically makes it
> better. Furthermore, even if OO techniques will be of benefit to you, it's
> perfectly possible to use them in a non-OO language; for instance,
> monsters and items are typically treated as 'objects' in roguelikes, even
> if it is done by means of structs and pointers.
> --
> David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Joseph
will leave, I wouldn't put it above anyone to take your advice and come up
with some other crap like the ADOM Qhack where they slap together some code
and exepct everyone who's interested in making a game to learn C++, which I
have miserably attempted. Or Rouge's Quest, A game where the only thing you
can edit is the dungeons and monster placements. Coders are generally lazy,
which I'll admit, I would be too.
While I'm here, Let me throw in some other stuff. I'd like to see an
OPTION to put in your own sprites or sugh to come up with an interface more
like Falcon's Eye. Everyone says ASCII is better because it brings out
imagination. Phooey. That it does, but at what expense? A simple game that I
really get into untill the 5th day when I die the 30'th time quite horribly.
At that point there is nothing else holding me on but sheer boredom, and I
really have much more fun making DnD campaigns. A nice tileset, some
soothing ambeinge or mideval music MIDI's or something, and a very
comforable interface, perhaps importing, or making your own MULITPLAYER
quests would be really popular.
And then some go to the other extreme... there's a game out there called
UnWorld. A life simulation in Finland during the iron age. you survive, kill
food, talk to poeple, and such. I gave it up after 5 minutes of playing the
game because creating the character took the better part of 10 minutes and
everything about the characer was far too complex. No documantation, and
annoying repetitive music/chanting ambience and music.
I'd say my favorite Rougelike was Andband, particularly the frontend
AngbandTK, because it was really quite simple, I LOVED it's magic system,
and it was realistic to the DnD/ J. R. R. tolien style monsters. You know,
an orc was an orc. There was no orc slaver, orc cheiftan, large orc, small
orc, blah blah. Cases as such in DnD were fewer than in most rougelikes, and
Allmost never seen in Angband.
HAHA. I can't wait to read the flame letters sent to a reply of this
one.
Miles Bader
> I'd like to see an OPTION to put in your own sprites or sugh to come
> up with an interface more like Falcon's Eye. Everyone says ASCII is
> better because it brings out imagination.
Unforunately every tileset I've seen for a non-commercial roguelike has
been pretty awful; roguelike authors just don't seem to have much talent
in this area. I'd rather play with normal characters than horrible tiles.
-Miles
--
o The existentialist, not having a pillow, goes everywhere with the book by
Sullivan, _I am going to spit on your graves_.
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Joseph <bfm...@planetsos.com> spake:
> Scince most coders that are volunteers get their way out of fear they
> will leave, I wouldn't put it above anyone to take your advice and come up
> with some other crap like the ADOM Qhack where they slap together some code
> and exepct everyone who's interested in making a game to learn C++, which I
> have miserably attempted. Or Rouge's Quest, A game where the only thing you
> can edit is the dungeons and monster placements. Coders are generally lazy,
> which I'll admit, I would be too.
You want Hephaestus, my shareware RPG construction kit:
<http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/Hephaestus/>
I'm currently writing an adaptation of the original Rogue in the
scripting language, Minimal; I have levels, monsters, weapons, and armor
now, and expect to finish the magic items this week. Almost everything
can be rewritten in Minimal.
> While I'm here, Let me throw in some other stuff. I'd like to see an
> OPTION to put in your own sprites or sugh to come up with an interface more
Yep. I use Lost Dragon's free tileset as the standard library, but
you can add any amount of new tiles in an adventure. About the only
constants in the graphics are the size (48x48, with as much above that
for pseudo-3D as you want) and the orientation (front, as in classic
console RPGs like the old Final Fantasy games or Lunar).
> really have much more fun making DnD campaigns. A nice tileset, some
> soothing ambeinge or mideval music MIDI's or something, and a very
> comforable interface, perhaps importing, or making your own MULITPLAYER
> quests would be really popular.
I personally discourage background music - why not let the user play
whatever they want? And who wants to hear the same 5 minute MIDI track
over and over for 50 hours? But sound effects are currently supported,
and MIDI and RMF will be fairly soon.
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"No one is safe. We will print no letters to the editor. We will give no
space to opposing points of view. They are wrong. The Underground Grammarian
is at war and will give the enemy nothing but battle." -TUG, v1n1
Grobins
"Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes" <kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> wrote
> I personally discourage background music - why not let the user play
> whatever they want? And who wants to hear the same 5 minute MIDI track
> over and over for 50 hours?
Like "Warning, Virus Detected. Reformat your hard drive before it's too
late." :)
mannix
"Miles Bader" <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
: Unforunately every tileset I've seen for a non-
: commercial roguelike has been pretty awful;
: roguelike authors just don't seem to have much
: talent in this area. I'd rather play with normal
: characters than horrible tiles.
This, I believe is true of most all volunteer
game development ... well, except for people
who work on mods for FPS and the like (the
pseudo-roguelike EgoBoo [something like that]
had relatively entertaining 3D models to it).
There was a somewhat interesting discussion on
Slashdot -- well, as interesting as it ever gets
these days, there -- regarding FreeCiv and the
lack of talented artist-types willing (or found
to be willing) to contribute talents outside of
coding language du jour.
I think they're out there. Maybe roguelike types
and volunteer game coders just aren't getting out
and meeting enough arty types to ask for a little
help with their crayon sketches.
Beats me. Even an ASCII/ANSI interface can be ugly
or troublesome. However, a game has to draw ample
attention before people will start banging around
asking for UI tweaks, ASCII or otherwise.
- don
Joseph
>
> Beats me. Even an ASCII/ANSI interface can be ugly
> or troublesome. However, a game has to draw ample
> attention before people will start banging around
> asking for UI tweaks, ASCII or otherwise.
>
> - don
Same here. I can appreiciate little or no graphics games as well as you
guys, but if you want to get more popularity than a gaggle of fanatics you
really should start incorporating something like Nethack's falcon's eye,
exept much better character and monster pictures, HAHA.
I can imagine seeing the blue "g" throwing rocks at me as I back up
holding my shield, and down a potion with my other hand, while bieng in a
dark mossy hallway with mice under my feet, but it's really nothing that
blows my mind away.
Graeme Dice
>
<snip>
> I personally discourage background music - why not let the user play
> whatever they want? And who wants to hear the same 5 minute MIDI track
> over and over for 50 hours? But sound effects are currently supported,
> and MIDI and RMF will be fairly soon.
I can listen to the some of the 30 second songs from Star Control 2 for
hours.
Graeme Dice
--
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of
combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good
works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to
have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat
leaden death, demon...
-- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)
William Tanksley
> Scince most coders that are volunteers get their way out of fear they
>will leave,
This is vacuous. Coders get their way because they MAKE their way. Nobody
"allowed" Biskup to make ADOM his way; he just did it. There's no fear
involved.
>I wouldn't put it above anyone to take your advice and come up with some
>other crap like the ADOM Qhack where they slap together some code and
>exepct everyone who's interested in making a game to learn C++,
QHack isn't crap. It's helped many people. It does exactly what it was
designed to do.
>which I have miserably attempted.
And failed? And then blamed Biskup for your failure?
>Coders are generally lazy, which I'll admit, I would be too.
On what do you base this statement? The fact that coders stop working
when they've met their goals? Do you also stop after your goals are met?
If so, does that make you lazy? If not, why not?
>While I'm here, Let me throw in some other stuff. I'd like to see an
>OPTION to put in your own sprites or sugh to come up with an interface more
>like Falcon's Eye.
Have you played Ragnarok, the DOS VGA roguelike? It's a great example of
the best-of-all-worlds.
>Everyone says ASCII is better because it brings out imagination. Phooey.
>That it does, but at what expense?
If that were the only argument, I'd agree with you. Books bring out
imagination much better. But it's not the only argument; in fact, it's a
very minor one. MUCH more important is the fact that connotational glyphs
(symbolic graphics or text-graphics) carries much more information in a
much more accessible way than denotational graphics (pictures intended to
look like the thing represented).
For example, when I'm playing Angband and I run into a red 'D', at a
glance I know that it's an older dragon, possibly an ancient one, and it
uses fire for its main attack. When I run into a beautifully rendered
drawing of a red dragon, I may know what the monster I'm fighting LOOKS
like, but I don't know what it IS. If the artist was clever enough to
draw all dragons to look similar and nothing non-dragon to look like a
dragon, I know the same info that the text would have given me, but the
resulting dragon will look boring -- and this isn't possible given a
reasonably large number of monsters. How do you draw, in 32x32 icons, the
difference between a hound and a wolf? How do you make giants
distinguishable from angels? Ogres from orcs? And so on, for hundreds of
monsters.
Even worse, the number of sprites you can fit on your display recognisably
is far smaller than the number of letters you can fit. Switch to
graphics, you lose visibility.
>A simple game that I really get into untill the 5th day when I die the
>30'th time quite horribly.
False. The game is QUITE complex, not at all simple.
>At that point there is nothing else holding me on but sheer boredom,
Not much of a hold. I don't believe you -- there has to be something
positive.
>and I really have much more fun making DnD campaigns.
Those are fun.
>A nice tileset,
Several have been made. AngbandTk and Falcon's Eye (as you mentioned) are
examples. They're not enough, for all the reasons I list above, plus one
very serious one: good graphics _requires_ continuous movement, not
square-to-square discrete jumps. Unless there's an obvious grid, as in
text roguelikes, people expect continuous positioning. Anything else just
feels wrong.
>some soothing ambeinge or mideval music MIDI's or something,
Play a CD. Seriously.
>and a very comforable interface,
I can agree with you here.
>perhaps importing, or making your own MULITPLAYER quests would be really
>popular.
With you, perhaps; although I doubt you'd really like it as much as you
say. Most people like to play a game, not endlessly design it.
>And then some go to the other extreme... there's a game out there called
>UnWorld. A life simulation in Finland during the iron age. you survive,
>kill food, talk to poeple, and such. I gave it up after 5 minutes of
>playing the game because creating the character took the better part of 10
>minutes and everything about the characer was far too complex. No
>documantation, and annoying repetitive music/chanting ambience and music.
URW (the game you describe) sounds like almost exactly what you've been
asking for -- it's not an endless dungeon crawl, but rather a full world.
It took me a long time to figure out, though, and the only way I finally
got anywhere was figuring out that robbing stores was VERY easy.
>I'd say my favorite Rougelike was Andband, particularly the frontend
>AngbandTK, because it was really quite simple, I LOVED it's magic system,
>and it was realistic to the DnD/ J. R. R. tolien style monsters. You know,
>an orc was an orc. There was no orc slaver, orc cheiftan, large orc, small
>orc, blah blah. Cases as such in DnD were fewer than in most rougelikes,
>and Allmost never seen in Angband.
Did you ever play it past level 4? There are many different types
of orcs! I wonder -- did you ever read any Tolkien? There are many
different types in his works, too.
>HAHA. I can't wait to read the flame letters sent to a reply of this one.
I know what you mean!
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley