looking for a new roguelike...
Martin Read
couple of years ago (and Sporkhack, while much better, is still too
close to it to really make a difference).
With 0.4, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has become the wrong kind of too hard
for me. The devs decreed that something which happened to be the
backbone of my favorite playstyle (with which I had not yet managed to
win) was too effective and made it too hard to use to be any fun. (Melee
characters in Crawl seldom appeal; the low-level experience of "bounce
direction key until I finally manage to connect" depletes both fun and
attention span with alarming rapidity.)
Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
buttons?
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
Antoine
> So. Nethack lost all appeal as anything except a topic for geekery a
> couple of years ago (and Sporkhack, while much better, is still too
> close to it to really make a difference).
>
> With 0.4, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has become the wrong kind of too hard
> for me. The devs decreed that something which happened to be the
> backbone of my favorite playstyle (with which I had not yet managed to
> win) was too effective and made it too hard to use to be any fun. (Melee
> characters in Crawl seldom appeal; the low-level experience of "bounce
> direction key until I finally manage to connect" depletes both fun and
> attention span with alarming rapidity.)
>
> Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
> buttons?
Well, what kind of games do you like??
A.
Darren Grey
> Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
> buttons?
It's hard to tell without knowing what you're after, but given your
comments (and my own leanings) I'd heavily recommend ADOM, which is of
course one of the other big roguelikes. It has less of the geekery of
Nethack, but much of the intelligent humour. It is difficult, but
everything can be planned and prepared for. Melee classes generally
are the worst long term, with archers and wizards excelling most
(wizards especially since they have the greatest range of tactics at
their disposal, though they're fragile initially). It's a game more
about slowly building up your character and remembering every option
available in critical battles. Takes a long time to master
unfortunately, but is very rewarding when you do. There's also lots
of friendly advice available on the official forums, as well as the
odd competition open to players of all experiences. I've known
Nethack veterans attain the basic victory in ADOM within a couple of
months (with helpful advice of course).
If that's not to your taste then LambdaRogue, Legerdemain and POWDER
are all fun and interesting modern roguelikes, albeit lacking the
depth and complexity of the more established titles. Certainly all
worth checking out to see if you like them or not.
--
Darren Grey
The Rani
POWDER and Frozen Depths are my favorites at the moment. I used to
really like playing Crawl even though I was really bad at it, but when
I switched to using Ubuntu a few months ago, I couldn't get the hang
of compiling Stone Soup Crawl, so I haven't even been able to play the
last several versions. I suspect at this point that if I ever manage
to get it to successfully compile, I'd feel just as much of a sense of
accomplishment as if I had actually beaten the game.
Martin Read
>Well, what kind of games do you like??
I mentioned Crawl and Nethack because there is much that I like in them;
the problem is that neither holds my interest for the entire game.
Nethack's middle and late game are tedious; Sporkhack improves this
quite a bit, but still suffers from the fact that Crawl's UI blows its
doors off without even trying.
The early game in Crawl has always been somewhat frustrating, and in
version 0.4 many of the same effects that frustrate me in the early game
are leaking into the middle game as the developers try to make the game
harder again after - in their view, at least - having made it too easy
in version 0.3.
I tend to avoid Angband and its derivatives; the part of my brain that
likes their fundamental gameplay would rather play Pokemon (or similar
"train cute things to beat each other up" games) on Nintendo handhelds,
or Diablo II on the PC.
POWDER is fun, but doesn't quite hit the Nethack/Crawl joy buttons.
I enjoyed trying out Guild a while back, but as an aficionado of 80s and
early 90s CRPGs[*] I found the restricted control over my party's actions
frustrating.
[*] Side note: SSI's Wizard's Crown managed to make /one city/, with
four not particularly large dungeons, feel bigger than the whole damn
world of most modern CRPGs.
Antoine
wrote:
> I tend to avoid Angband and its derivatives; the part of my brain that
> likes their fundamental gameplay would rather play Pokemon (or similar
> "train cute things to beat each other up" games) on Nintendo handhelds,
> or Diablo II on the PC.
I'm looking forward to Diablo 3 myself.
A.
Cuboidz
> With 0.4, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has become the wrong kind of too hard
> for me. The devs decreed that something which happened to be the
> backbone of my favorite playstyle (with which I had not yet managed to
> win) was too effective and made it too hard to use to be any fun.
What do you mean by this?
> (Melee
> characters in Crawl seldom appeal; the low-level experience of "bounce
> direction key until I finally manage to connect" depletes both fun and
> attention span with alarming rapidity.)
What about the abilities granted to you by your God? They ought to add
some variety.
Granted, Crawl does have its dull moments, due to long periods of
relatively low difficulty - only occasionally offset by "some real
action" (tm). In other words, even though Crawl is arguably the
hardest roguelike around, its difficulty level is not constant, which
is less than optimal.
> Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
> buttons?
From your posts on r.g.r.m, I can tell you're familiar with POWDER -
and it just so happens that POWDER is rubbing me the right way at the
moment. POWDER is "Nethack done right", as some would say. So why
aren't you considering POWDER?
corremn
> So. Nethack lost all appeal as anything except a topic for geekery a
> couple of years ago (and Sporkhack, while much better, is still too
> close to it to really make a difference).
>
> Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
> buttons?
IVAN!
Martin Read
>On Aug 19, 9:37=A0pm, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
>> buttons?
>
>It's hard to tell without knowing what you're after, but given your
>comments (and my own leanings) I'd heavily recommend ADOM, which is of
>course one of the other big roguelikes.
I gave up on ADOM shortly after 1.0.0 came out (having completed the
"normal" ending in 0.9.9g6, g8 and g16pr2 with grey elven and high elven
barbarians among others, and decided that the ultra ending was
infinitely more hassle than I could be bothered with, depending as it
did on the "get amulet of lifesaving early enough to matter" crapshoot).
I gave the last released version another shot a few months ago and
decided (after encountering an unsealed lightning vortex vault on level
15 or so of the dungeon - an occurrence which you *can't* prepare for,
and which obliterated my up to then quite promising high elven
barbarian) that I was right to have given it up.
Ilyak
> I switched to using Ubuntu a few months ago, I couldn't get the hang
> of compiling Stone Soup Crawl, so I haven't even been able to play the
> last several versions. I suspect at this point that if I ever manage
> to get it to successfully compile, I'd feel just as much of a sense of
> accomplishment as if I had actually beaten the game.
Why don't you just
$ ssh jos...@crawl.akrasiac.org
?
David Ploog
> On 19 aug, 22:37, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> With 0.4, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has become the wrong kind of too hard
>> for me. The devs decreed that something which happened to be the
>> backbone of my favorite playstyle (with which I had not yet managed to
>> win) was too effective and made it too hard to use to be any fun.
>
> What do you mean by this?
I think the nerf to some ice spells.
>> (Melee characters in Crawl seldom appeal; the low-level experience of
>> "bounce direction key until I finally manage to connect" depletes both
>> fun and attention span with alarming rapidity.)
I agree that pure melee characters are a bit too one-dimensional. But
there is much more than that, of course.
> What about the abilities granted to you by your God? They ought to add
> some variety.
To be honest, the current choice is not as big as it seems to be:
Nemelex is working (in my opinion), but requires a special mindset.
Kiku and Yrdy are basically out, at the moment. (They will see changes.)
Zin is under repair, Elyvilon is still boring despite being able to pacify
(we will address that, too).
That leaves you with the more or less classical choices:
Sif or Vehumet for casters (or also Makhleb, if you feel funny),
Okawaru, Makhleb, TSO for melee characters (TSO is new here),
(Trog is out for Martin because no casting == no fun, I guess).
Xom if you're bored but in my opinion, Xom does not make interesting
choices (even if interesting games).
And there are the oddballs Lugonu and Beogh -- for both of which I don't
know how much appeal they have after the first time.
I think that transparent development is good, so let me say that we plan
to address the gods one by one (improve old god or add new one), until the
situation improves a bit. [1]
> Granted, Crawl does have its dull moments, due to long periods of
> relatively low difficulty - only occasionally offset by "some real
> action" (tm). In other words, even though Crawl is arguably the
> hardest roguelike around, its difficulty level is not constant, which
> is less than optimal.
I would be happy if it was "the hardest roguelike around", but I am not
sure. Stabwound's streak of 16 wins in a row (with diversification among
species and gods!) seems to disprove this somewhat.
Most of the dullness stems from the midgame, and we are planning to change
that (by making it shorter, for one). The other issue I am having is the
general length of the game (a bit too long for 3-runers, in my opinion).
>> Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
>> buttons?
>
> From your posts on r.g.r.m, I can tell you're familiar with POWDER -
> and it just so happens that POWDER is rubbing me the right way at the
> moment. POWDER is "Nethack done right", as some would say. So why
> aren't you considering POWDER?
Martin played POWDER, I think :)
Of course, one could argue that Sporkhack is Nethack done right, but of
course that's a moot point.
However, what about Incursion? (I have to admit that I rarely ever play,
so this is out of the blue.)
David
[1] In case you're interested, a quick note on why the gods see so much
care, when so many other things need help (think combat system):
First, gods can be changed without breaking the game. In other words,
they're safer to toy with than most other issues.
Second, gods add a lot to flavour, and even new/casual players will see
them. This makes them an attractive construction site.
Third, some gods needed an overhaul really urgently (Nemelex, for
example). Having started this, it seems good to just address them all and
then turn to another major topic (branches, say).
Fourth, I believe that the diversity of playing styles is the biggest
strength of Crawl. New/changed gods can help here.
Fifth, we like gods.
The Rani
I'm afraid I'm such a noob that I have no idea what that is supposed
to accomplish.
Ido Yehieli
Michal Bielinski
> So. Nethack lost all appeal as anything except a topic for geekery a
> couple of years ago (and Sporkhack, while much better, is still too
> close to it to really make a difference).
>
> With 0.4, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has become the wrong kind of too hard
> for me.
> Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
> buttons?
How about Alphaman? I would also recommend IVAN because of its crazy
humor but I couldn't get used to its graphics and that completely turned
me off.
--
Michal Bielinski
Martin Read
> This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
> while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
>
>--765491240-493160013-1219228628=:27187
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
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Ugh. Poke your news agent with pointy sticks until it stops putting in
this gratuitous MIME shite :)
>On Tue, 19 Aug 2008, Cuboidz wrote:
>> On 19 aug, 22:37, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> With 0.4, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has become the wrong kind of too hard
>>> for me. The devs decreed that something which happened to be the
>>> backbone of my favorite playstyle (with which I had not yet managed to
>>> win) was too effective and made it too hard to use to be any fun.
>>
>> What do you mean by this?
>
>I think the nerf to some ice spells.
Specifically, making cold resistance usually-less-intense but also more
common (a net loss to ice magic users, IMO; up to early-middle game, you
weakened the cold resistance of some monsters that were (a) rare and (b)
mostly an annoyance rather than a major threat, and gave cold resistance
to the much more common and dangerous-to-light-armour-users ugly things)
while at the same time moving bolt of cold and bolt of fire across one
of the most important divides on the spell level scale. It doesn't
help that Static Discharge is pretty much junk for anyone who hasn't
obtained some deep Zen insight into the game.
On the up side from a design standpoint, the Book of Tempests is now
well worth getting. I would go so far as to say that in 0.4, Lightning
Bolt is 100% unambiguously a better choice than Bolt of Cold given all
those gorgeous buffing enchantments in Air Magic.
>>> (Melee characters in Crawl seldom appeal; the low-level experience of
>>> "bounce direction key until I finally manage to connect" depletes both
>>> fun and attention span with alarming rapidity.)
>
>I agree that pure melee characters are a bit too one-dimensional. But
>there is much more than that, of course.
If you start as a Fighter, you have to get to the Temple for there to be
discernably more than that to a melee character. And there's only so
much "taking eight turns to kill a level 1 monster with a level 1
specialist melee character" I can put up with.
>To be honest, the current choice is not as big as it seems to be:
>Nemelex is working (in my opinion), but requires a special mindset.
>Kiku and Yrdy are basically out, at the moment. (They will see changes.)
>Zin is under repair, Elyvilon is still boring despite being able to pacify
>(we will address that, too).
>
>That leaves you with the more or less classical choices:
>Sif or Vehumet for casters (or also Makhleb, if you feel funny),
I think Makhleb would make a perhaps surprisingly large amount of sense
for people whose /casting/ focus is neither Conjurations nor Summoning.
Unfortunately, I don't quite get on with Makhleb. (Not quite sure what
it is.)
>Okawaru, Makhleb, TSO for melee characters (TSO is new here),
>(Trog is out for Martin because no casting == no fun, I guess).
Okawaru is as dull as deionised water. Makhleb isn't, but see above.
TSO and Trog are the most fun of the melee-character gods for me. TSO
gives you melee to-hit bonuses with the halo (and turns unseen horrors
into seen horrors), which removes a lot of the frustration from trying
to hit things. Trog gives you berserk, which is a lot like conjurations:
things die very fast, but there are several ways for things to equally
quickly go horribly wrong for you.
0.3's Conjurer class starts to make a good "make things go splat"
character quite early in the midgame; 0.4's *doesn't*.
One thing that would help with melee characters in the early game: Give
all the truly-in-depth D:1 humanoids a naked AC of 0 (after all, player
kobolds have a naked AC of 0), so that even your damage rolls of '1' do
*something*. (Simultaneously giving the hobgoblins at least one point
of melee damage boost at the same time would be perfectly reasonable.)
The Rani
When I type that command, it just asks me for some guy's password.
Martin Read
[ssh to akrasiac]
>When I type that command, it just asks me for some guy's password.
Read http://crawl.akrasiac.org and be enlightened.
corremn
wrote:
Alphaman, I havn't played that for 10+ years :). Never quite finished
it though.
It took me a long time to get used to the graphics in IVAN but then I
loved it. Seeing limbs/heads fly off zombies as you hack into them can
be quite enjoyable, assuming one can also get used to the limb
system :P
gut
news:cuj*hx...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk:
> Darren Grey <darrenj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Aug 19, 9:37=A0pm, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
>>> buttons?
>>
>>It's hard to tell without knowing what you're after, but given your
>>comments (and my own leanings) I'd heavily recommend ADOM, which is of
>>course one of the other big roguelikes.
>
> I gave up on ADOM shortly after 1.0.0 came out (having completed the
> "normal" ending in 0.9.9g6, g8 and g16pr2 with grey elven and high elven
> barbarians among others, and decided that the ultra ending was
> infinitely more hassle than I could be bothered with, depending as it
> did on the "get amulet of lifesaving early enough to matter" crapshoot).
>
> I gave the last released version another shot a few months ago and
> decided (after encountering an unsealed lightning vortex vault on level
> 15 or so of the dungeon - an occurrence which you *can't* prepare for,
> and which obliterated my up to then quite promising high elven
> barbarian) that I was right to have given it up.
ADOM is sometimes a game of subtle tactics : ) A simple scroll of darkness
provides (near) 100% protection from every vortex, and they are one of
the most frequently occuring scrolls in the game.
I think you may be giving up on crawl a bit too soon though. I usually play
spellcasters in roguelikes, and play them (almost) exclusively in crawl. I
I really can't think of another roguelike that has a magic system nearly as
fun as crawl's.
Trent W. Buck
The Rani
Hmm. doing the apt-get install crawl installed an older version of
stone soup. Is there a way to make it install the latest version?
lemuel...@gmail.com
> Kiku and Yrdy are basically out, at the moment. (They will see changes.)
Wait, what do you mean, "out"? My first win was with Yredelemnuul and
I know I'm not the only one. Y is one of the best-designed gods in the
game -- probably second, IMHO, after Trog. Fun, strong but not
unbalanced, distinct but not too narrow.
Designing gods that work well is hard, as you know better than anyone.
I would strongly recommend against making any changes to Yrdy (except
maybe jazzing up the gift list a little). At best, it's a very low
priority; at worst, it's liable to make the game less fun rather than
more.
Lemuel
Trent W. Buck
No. Integrating an upstream project into Debian (or Ubuntu) is a
nontrivial undertaking, so the lastest version that's integrated into
your current release of Debian (Ubuntu) isn't necessarily the latest
release from upstream.
In many cases you can install the latest version of a package for a
newer Debian (Ubuntu) release without completely ruining your system.
For example, Debian Lenny and Sid both have Crawl 0.4.1 at the moment;
Ubuntu Intrepid has 0.3.4.
To do this in such a way that "apt-get upgrade" will continue to track
the newest version that's integrated into Debian (Ubuntu), you need to
use "pinning". Setting that up is a complicated affair that is
off-topic here.
On Debian, you can alternatively put the following line in
/etc/apt/apt.conf, make sure you have both "stable" and "testing"
entries in your sources.list, then just do "apt-get install
crawl/testing". This is much easier than pinning, but I don't know how
to do it on Ubuntu (since they don't have "stable" and "testing"
aliases).
APT::Default-Release "stable";
Shadowdweller
> Anyone want to recommend something that hits the same kind of joy
> buttons?
> --
My personal favorite at the moment is Incursion Roguelike. Though a
bit buggy and possibly complicated for those unfamiliar with D&D 3e,
it has a great depth of play.
Karnot
> I gave the last released version another shot a few months ago and
> decided (after encountering an unsealed lightning vortex vault on level
> 15 or so of the dungeon - an occurrence which you *can't* prepare for,
> and which obliterated my up to then quite promising high elven
> barbarian) that I was right to have given it up.
In comparing Crawl and ADoM such arguments as this fail to have any
weight.
In ADoM you can *always* prepare. In Crawl you never can, its just
dumb luck.
You can play through most of the game and never get a resist to
corrosions, for example, and slime vaults are second common after the
bees.
Some of your characters may NEVER get any item with see invisible.
Ever.
What can prepare you to a gnoll having a distortion weapon on level
2 ?
What can prepare you to uniques that recently regained ability to
follow you through the stairs ?
What can prepare you to *numerous* bee armies ?
Hell, most non-fighter characters wont be able to survive the first
centaur captain they meet, unless he was sleeping.
gut
a69242...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:
> On 20 авг, 03:28, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> I gave the last released version another shot a few months ago and
>> decided (after encountering an unsealed lightning vortex vault on level
>> 15 or so of the dungeon - an occurrence which you *can't* prepare for,
>> and which obliterated my up to then quite promising high elven
>> barbarian) that I was right to have given it up.
>
> In comparing Crawl and ADoM such arguments as this fail to have any
> weight.
> In ADoM you can *always* prepare. In Crawl you never can, its just
> dumb luck.
Yeah, in ADOM, about the only truly unpreventable death is an early pit
viper or stone block trap. There are some exeptions though, I once
opened a door, and immediately got melted by a bunch of Ancient Black
Wyrms. Ouch! : )
> You can play through most of the game and never get a resist to
> corrosions, for example, and slime vaults are second common after the
> bees.
> Some of your characters may NEVER get any item with see invisible.
> Ever.
That's true to a large extent, but there are a few things that one can
do in Crawl, to improve their chances of aquiring resistances. Careful
searching, and diety choice are examples. Diety choice can be a tough
one, because you may end up with mediocre gift items, but I'm liking that
part of the game.
> What can prepare you to a gnoll having a distortion weapon on level
> 2 ?
> What can prepare you to uniques that recently regained ability to
> follow you through the stairs ?
> What can prepare you to *numerous* bee armies ?
As a player with only (limited) experience with spellcasters, I would
say the 'mephitic cloud' spell.
> Hell, most non-fighter characters wont be able to survive the first
> centaur captain they meet, unless he was sleeping.
Never met one yet, so thanks for the warning : )
Martin Read
>You can play through most of the game and never get a resist to
>corrosions, for example, and slime vaults are second common after the
>bees.
One can do the Slime Pits without resist corrosion, so that's not a
problem.
>Some of your characters may NEVER get any item with see invisible.
>Ever.
True. However, until you get to the very late game, there are always
other options. Use the anti-bat tactics you developed back on D:1 to
deal with unseen horrors. Retreat up/down stairs if casters go
invisible. Worship TSO (divine backlighting) and charge into close
range. Use the See Invisible (obviously) or Corona (backlit targets
have their invisibility suppressed) spells. Use AOE Conjurations like
Fireball, Mephitic Cloud, or Freezing Cloud to inconvenience or kill the
invisible without having to roll to hit.
>What can prepare you to a gnoll having a distortion weapon on level
>2 ?
Hoovering all the darts and stones on D:1 so that you can hurt things
before they reach melee range. Playing a venom mage (Sting; gnolls don't
get armour at generation time), or a spriggan or centaur (fast
movement). Getting lucky (and, y'know, it was pretty impressive *bad*
luck on your part that gave the gnoll a weapon of distortion in the
first place).
(Also, counterpoint: What can prepare you for the first door you open in
ADOM having the most deadly of the door traps and thereby blowing your
head off? I mean, without spending a positively Angbandesque amount of
time farming I:1.)
>What can prepare you to uniques that recently regained ability to
>follow you through the stairs ?
>What can prepare you to *numerous* bee armies ?
For both of these: all sorts of things. Troggites can use Trog's Hand
(regeneration), go Berserk, and maybe even summon their Brothers In
Arms. Okawarites can use Might to fight, and later in the game can use
Haste to fight or flee. Anyone can use wands. Anyone except a TSOite or
Elyvilonite can use blowguns and poison or curare needles. Mages have
both howitzers and nasty tricks stuffed up the voluminous sleeves of
their robes.
Also: Most uniques aren't actually all *that* dangerous, given that by
the point the higher-level ones turn up, a unique turning up means one
less yaktaur pack on the level. The ones I tend to worry about are
Jessica before D:3, Sigmund before D:5, Erolcha (lightning!), Louise
(banishment), and Boris.
>Hell, most non-fighter characters wont be able to survive the first
>centaur captain they meet, unless he was sleeping.
Robe-wearers (very few non-fighters wear heavy armour, since very few
races have both enough Int to plausibly cast high-level spells in heavy
armour *and* enough Armour aptitude to make the huge EV sacrifice
worthwhile) tend to have good stealth (Air Elementalists even more so,
since levitation and flight are stealthy); it's really quite likely that
the centaur warrior will be asleep when you meet him.
Derek Ray
> On 20 авг, 03:28, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> I gave the last released version another shot a few months ago and
>> decided (after encountering an unsealed lightning vortex vault on level
>> 15 or so of the dungeon - an occurrence which you *can't* prepare for,
>> and which obliterated my up to then quite promising high elven
>> barbarian) that I was right to have given it up.
>
> In comparing Crawl and ADoM such arguments as this fail to have any
> weight.
> In ADoM you can *always* prepare. In Crawl you never can, its just
> dumb luck.
That is, of course, quite untrue.
> You can play through most of the game and never get a resist to
> corrosions, for example, and slime vaults are second common after the
> bees.
But you don't have to do Slime to win. There are plenty of other runes
available for the taking. In my recent Crawl win, I never even bothered
to find the entrance to Slime because I didn't have resist corrosion. I
took the runes from Swamp, Snake, and Vaults instead.
> Some of your characters may NEVER get any item with see invisible.
> Ever.
Fortunately, invisible monsters aren't that big of a tragedy. Even the
annoying unseen horror can be lured into a corridor and beaten to death.
> What can prepare you to a gnoll having a distortion weapon on level
> 2 ?
The realization that characters dying on level 2 to gnolls with
distortion weapons only took about 10 minutes to get there, so you write
it off as bad luck and start again?
> What can prepare you to uniques that recently regained ability to
> follow you through the stairs ?
Use the stairs to escape from things you can't fight earlier? It should
be rapidly obvious whether you can defeat a particular unique, and the
time to start running is _not_ when you're down to 1/4 HP.
> What can prepare you to *numerous* bee armies ?
Use the potion of speed to get to the stairs and escape, then kill the
few bees that follow, go down another set, and bypass the level?
Or just lure the bees to a choke point? Or cast Mephitic Cloud on them
and watch them kill each other in confusion? (Poison is highly
effective against insects.) There are ways to deal with killer bees.
None of the effective ones involve "running out in the open and getting
surrounded by them", unless you're a Troggle loaded for bear.
> Hell, most non-fighter characters wont be able to survive the first
> centaur captain they meet, unless he was sleeping.
Yaktaur captains are _very_ deep level.
--
Derek
Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
zai...@zaimoni.com
> On 20 Á×Ç, 03:28, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > I gave the last released version another shot a few months ago and
> > decided (after encountering an unsealed lightning vortex vault on level
> > 15 or so of the dungeon - an occurrence which you *can't* prepare for,
> > and which obliterated my up to then quite promising high elven
> > barbarian) that I was right to have given it up.
>
> In comparing Crawl and ADoM such arguments as this fail to have any
> weight.
> In ADoM you can *always* prepare. In Crawl you never can, its just
> dumb luck.
> You can play through most of the game and never get a resist to
> corrosions, for example, and slime vaults are second common after the
> bees.
> Some of your characters may NEVER get any item with see invisible.
> Ever.
> What can prepare you to a gnoll having a distortion weapon on level
> 2 ?
Exerting great effort *not* to prepare. ("I'm the most clueless
newbie" is not a usual title to *actively* contend for.)
Melee-only characters in SSCrawl deserve to die. Fortunately, no
character need be melee only at the end of DL1: Those race/class
combinations that do not start with a missile weapon, generally are
tough enough to get away with disarming dart traps at zero skill.
gut
> (Also, counterpoint: What can prepare you for the first door you open in
> ADOM having the most deadly of the door traps and thereby blowing your
> head off? I mean, without spending a positively Angbandesque amount of
> time farming I:1.)
An ultra conservative way of starting, is to use the infinite dungeon. If
you find a locked door, don't try kicking it, just leave the level and
return. A new level will be generated, and traps are really pretty rare in
the first level of the ID. It doesn't take long to get a few exp. levels,
and that's usually all you need for trap protection (unless your an elf).
konijn_
wrote:
>
> >> I gave the last released version another shot a few months ago and
> >> decided (after encountering an unsealed lightning vortex vault on level
> >> 15 or so of the dungeon - an occurrence which you *can't* prepare for,
> >> and which obliterated my up to then quite promising high elven
> >> barbarian) that I was right to have given it up.
>
> > In comparing Crawl and ADoM such arguments as this fail to have any
> > weight.
> > In ADoM you can *always* prepare. In Crawl you never can, its just
> > dumb luck.
>
> That is, of course, quite untrue.
It is debatable. You get the stuff you find, you have limited extra
options with the shops.
> > You can play through most of the game and never get a resist to
> > corrosions, for example, and slime vaults are second common after the
> > bees.
>
> But you don't have to do Slime to win. There are plenty of other runes
> available for the taking. In my recent Crawl win, I never even bothered
> to find the entrance to Slime because I didn't have resist corrosion. I
> took the runes from Swamp, Snake, and Vaults instead.
You're better than me.
> > Some of your characters may NEVER get any item with see invisible.
> > Ever.
>
> Fortunately, invisible monsters aren't that big of a tragedy. Even the
> annoying unseen horror can be lured into a corridor and beaten to death.
>
> > What can prepare you to a gnoll having a distortion weapon on level
> > 2 ?
>
> The realization that characters dying on level 2 to gnolls with
> distortion weapons only took about 10 minutes to get there, so you write
> it off as bad luck and start again?
Sure, however, this also happens on deeper levels.
> > What can prepare you to uniques that recently regained ability to
> > follow you through the stairs ?
>
> Use the stairs to escape from things you can't fight earlier? It should
> be rapidly obvious whether you can defeat a particular unique, and the
> time to start running is _not_ when you're down to 1/4 HP.
>
> > What can prepare you to *numerous* bee armies ?
>
> Use the potion of speed to get to the stairs and escape, then kill the
> few bees that follow, go down another set, and bypass the level?
Yes. Ehm, no. That is how to get rid of 1 bee army. There tend to be
more bee armies and other nasties to run from than there are speed
potions.
> Or just lure the bees to a choke point? Or cast Mephitic Cloud on them
> and watch them kill each other in confusion? (Poison is highly
> effective against insects.) There are ways to deal with killer bees.
> None of the effective ones involve "running out in the open and getting
> surrounded by them", unless you're a Troggle loaded for bear.
Right, however, since the dungeon layout is random and you do need to
find stairs, that's not exactly avoidable. Let me not even mention
auto explore...
> > Hell, most non-fighter characters wont be able to survive the first
> > centaur captain they meet, unless he was sleeping.
>
> Yaktaur captains are _very_ deep level.
We must play different games. Centaurs routinely killed me on dlevel 6
or 7.
Can you show me a winner of Crawl who didnt look at the spoilers ?
It feels to me that Crawl is not telling you why you die, most deaths
are pointless and do not convey a lesson. At least not to me. That's
why I dislike Crawl ( that and the options which are cryptic to me and
the way auto-explore doesnt take unknown upstairs ).
Cheers,
T.
thiskidrob
>
> > You can play through most of the game and never get a resist to
> > corrosions, for example, and slime vaults are second common after the
> > bees.
>
> But you don't have to do Slime to win. There are plenty of other runes
> available for the taking. In my recent Crawl win, I never even bothered
> to find the entrance to Slime because I didn't have resist corrosion. I
> took the runes from Swamp, Snake, and Vaults instead.
Ooh, quite the hero you are, risking all to get the Swamp, Snake, and
Vault rune...
If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
And I thought you were going to mention Tomb, Hells, Pan... most of
which are unplayable by your average successful PC. It's really a
waste, so much dungeon, and so little possibility of exploring it
> Fortunately, invisible monsters aren't that big of a tragedy. Even the
> annoying unseen horror can be lured into a corridor and beaten to death.
With a midlevel character, an unseen horror can be killed in the open
by moving left-right, or up down, over and over again. If left-right
doesnt work, try up down. They will run if not enough damage is dealt
to kill them, so poisoning them first is usually a smart move, to prep
them for their beating.
>
> > What can prepare you to uniques that recently regained ability to
> > follow you through the stairs ?
>
> Use the stairs to escape from things you can't fight earlier? It should
> be rapidly obvious whether you can defeat a particular unique, and the
> time to start running is _not_ when you're down to 1/4 HP.
>
> > What can prepare you to *numerous* bee armies ?
>
> Use the potion of speed to get to the stairs and escape, then kill the
> few bees that follow, go down another set, and bypass the level?
You have assumed multiple times that descending these stairs was a
safe option.
But back to my point:
If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
It's because the game is unbalanced.
I think the game is "1 key item' too evil right now. Its tough to
succeed without finding that =oWizardry, or AoG, or poison resistance,
or =oMP. If you don't have good items generated, and you aren't a
'strong' combo, you are likely to fail (moreso even likely to fail
than the approximate 1% success rate set this month during the Crawl
tournament, where the world's best Crawlers competed.) And that is a
very high failure rate ;-)
Can anyone who runs a Crawl server pull stats from previous versions?
I would be curious to see where this current version stands.
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
> But back to my point:
>
> If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
> win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
>
> It's because the game is unbalanced.
>
> I think the game is "1 key item' too evil right now. Its tough to
> succeed without finding that =oWizardry, or AoG, or poison resistance,
> or =oMP. If you don't have good items generated, and you aren't a
> 'strong' combo, you are likely to fail (moreso even likely to fail
> than the approximate 1% success rate set this month during the Crawl
> tournament, where the world's best Crawlers competed.) And that is a
> very high failure rate ;-)
>
> Can anyone who runs a Crawl server pull stats from previous versions?
> I would be curious to see where this current version stands.
What sort of stats do you want? The answer is "Yes, though if it's hard
I might hand you logfiles and make you do the math." The logfiles are:
Old games: crawl.akrasiac.org/allgames.txt (this is 0.1.4 through 0.3.4)
0.4 and above: crawl.akrasiac.org/logfile04 (this is 0.4.0 though now)
You might find it interesting to compare win percentage during the
tournament: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/per_day.html with win
percentage in 0.3.4: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring03/per_day.html
The three months before the upgrade to 0.4 were a .61% win rate.
The month of the tournament has so far been a 1.05% win rate. Some people
are trying harder to win during the tournament; others are going for high
scoring combinations, but that happens outside of the tournament, too.
The month before the tournament, the only other month of 0.4 data, is at
a 1.02% win rate (despite a couple of weeks of that XP bug!).
If you want to see what runes people go for, you might find these pages
interesting: In 0.3, almost everyone did Snake, Swamp, and Vaults.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring03/runes.html (the Demonic statistic
is broken, oops) In 0.4, people have varied their runes a lot more,
with Vault:8 being the most common branch ending done by a winner:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/runes.html About twice as many players
as "before" are getting to the Snake and Swamp runes. What this says,
if anything, I don't really know; but yes, there are statistics, lots
of them :)
-r.
Martin Read
>Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> (Also, counterpoint: What can prepare you for the first door you open in
>> ADOM having the most deadly of the door traps and thereby blowing your
>> head off? I mean, without spending a positively Angbandesque amount of
>> time farming I:1.)
>
>An ultra conservative way of starting, is to use the infinite dungeon.
What part of "without spending a positively Angbandesque amount of time
farming I:1" didn't you understand?
zai...@zaimoni.com
> On Aug 25, 8:34 am, Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
> > Or just lure the bees to a choke point? Or cast Mephitic Cloud on them
> > and watch them kill each other in confusion? (Poison is highly
> > effective against insects.) There are ways to deal with killer bees.
> > None of the effective ones involve "running out in the open and getting
> > surrounded by them", unless you're a Troggle loaded for bear.
>
> Right, however, since the dungeon layout is random and you do need to
> find stairs, that's not exactly avoidable. Let me not even mention
> auto explore...
With correct use of visibility control when moving, "running out in
the open and getting surrounded by them" is practically completely
avoidable through at least the late mid-game. And auto-explore does
get visibility control mostly right when you stack the deck -- by
starting it near exactly one unexplored corridor (about the only use I
have for it).
Derek Ray
> On Aug 25, 8:34 am, Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
>> >> I gave the last released version another shot a few months ago and
>> >> decided (after encountering an unsealed lightning vortex vault on level
>> >> 15 or so of the dungeon - an occurrence which you *can't* prepare for,
>> >> and which obliterated my up to then quite promising high elven
>> >> barbarian) that I was right to have given it up.
>> > In comparing Crawl and ADoM such arguments as this fail to have any
>> > weight.
>> > In ADoM you can *always* prepare. In Crawl you never can, its just
>> > dumb luck.
>> That is, of course, quite untrue.
> It is debatable. You get the stuff you find, you have limited extra
> options with the shops.
It isn't even debatable. No, you can't prep to invincibility the way
you can in Nethack. To say that you 'never can' prepare in Crawl just
because you can't be invincible, however, is a crock of shit.
>> > You can play through most of the game and never get a resist to
>> > corrosions, for example, and slime vaults are second common after the
>> > bees.
>> But you don't have to do Slime to win. There are plenty of other runes
>> available for the taking. In my recent Crawl win, I never even bothered
>> to find the entrance to Slime because I didn't have resist corrosion. I
>> took the runes from Swamp, Snake, and Vaults instead.
> You're better than me.
Really? I played my first game on 8/2/08, and won on 8/24, after 78
games. I am not that much better a player than everyone; I think I just
know how to work within my limits better than most. I took a bashy
character to simplify my options and did only what I was able to; I didn't
have resist corrosion, so I didn't bother looking for Slime (and
wouldn't have gone for that rune even if I had). This is not a decision
that requires years of play experience to make.
I hunted through _countless_ levels of the dungeon looking for my piddly
little axe of flaming just to do Swamp, for example. If I hadn't found
one, I would've simply switched over to the nicest blunt weapon I could
find. There. Are. Alternatives.
>> > What can prepare you to a gnoll having a distortion weapon on level
>> > 2 ?
>> The realization that characters dying on level 2 to gnolls with
>> distortion weapons only took about 10 minutes to get there, so you write
>> it off as bad luck and start again?
> Sure, however, this also happens on deeper levels.
Distortion weapons are no fun, true, but only on DL2 are they likely to
be instadeath. You don't HAVE to keep trying to fight things that are
bigger than you; if it's wielding a distortion weapon, RUN AWAY.
>> Use the stairs to escape from things you can't fight earlier? It should
>> be rapidly obvious whether you can defeat a particular unique, and the
>> time to start running is _not_ when you're down to 1/4 HP.
>> > What can prepare you to *numerous* bee armies ?
>> Use the potion of speed to get to the stairs and escape, then kill the
>> few bees that follow, go down another set, and bypass the level?
> Yes. Ehm, no. That is how to get rid of 1 bee army. There tend to be
> more bee armies and other nasties to run from than there are speed
> potions.
Then, simply put, you're doing something wrong. Perhaps you are
descending too fast; perhaps you are not testing out equipment; perhaps
you are picking role/class combos that flat stink. Perhaps you are not
_using_ the resources given to you; Crawl is not forgiving of people who
try to save all their 'good' items til the endgame.
I can say this -- I have never been swarmed by more than one mob of bees
unless I was near a) The Hive, or b) near _a_ hive, and for _those_ I
simply leave the level -- possibly teleporting away first. Then I come
back.
>> Or just lure the bees to a choke point? Or cast Mephitic Cloud on them
>> and watch them kill each other in confusion? (Poison is highly
>> effective against insects.) There are ways to deal with killer bees.
>> None of the effective ones involve "running out in the open and getting
>> surrounded by them", unless you're a Troggle loaded for bear.
> Right, however, since the dungeon layout is random and you do need to
> find stairs, that's not exactly avoidable. Let me not even mention
Luring bees to a choke point is _not_ hard to do.
> auto explore...
There's nothing wrong with autoexplore as long as you don't randomly
bang on the buttons after it stops you. It stops _the turn_ you see a
hostile. Not two turns later. Not four turns later. THAT TURN. So I
don't see what's wrong with it, frankly. I use it all the time unless
I specifically want to avoid wide open areas for some reason (lower
levels of branches, etc).
>> > Hell, most non-fighter characters wont be able to survive the first
>> > centaur captain they meet, unless he was sleeping.
>> Yaktaur captains are _very_ deep level.
> We must play different games. Centaurs routinely killed me on dlevel 6
> or 7.
1) YAKTAUR captains. There are no centaur captains. There are centaurs
and centaur warriors; centaur warriors do not appear on DL6 or 7.
2) Stop fighting centaurs in the open where you can get peppered with
arrows. Go around a corner; they suck in melee.
> Can you show me a winner of Crawl who didnt look at the spoilers ?
Oh, really? Do I count?
I didn't refer to a single spoiler document in those 79 games; I do
hang out in ##crawl, but I actively rejected help from the denizens
there. The most I ever used Henzell for was to get a description (and
max levels) of some of the branches. Technically that's mild spoilage,
but one could also argue that such information should be in teh game,
too. My first time on Zot:5 I splatted huge to a Killer Klown; the next
time there I took it a _lot_ slower, and won.
Regardless, that "you need spoilers to win" argument is bunk. I'm
living proof; if you are dying, stop doing what you're doing to die.
> why I dislike Crawl ( that and the options which are cryptic to me and
> the way auto-explore doesnt take unknown upstairs ).
Why should auto-explore switch between levels?
Derek Ray
>> > corrosions, for example, and slime vaults are second common after the
>> > bees.
>> But you don't have to do Slime to win. There are plenty of other runes
>> available for the taking. In my recent Crawl win, I never even bothered
>> to find the entrance to Slime because I didn't have resist corrosion. I
>> took the runes from Swamp, Snake, and Vaults instead.
> Ooh, quite the hero you are, risking all to get the Swamp, Snake, and
> Vault rune...
Vault:8 is pretty dangerous if you aren't prepared. Just ask the shadow
dragons and storm dragons.
> If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
> win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
Because some branches are easier than others, and players gravitate
towards the least amount necessary to do. That doesn't mean that the
other runes are even remotely unobtainable.
> And I thought you were going to mention Tomb, Hells, Pan... most of
> which are unplayable by your average successful PC.
Please define, in gruesome, specific detail, what you mean by 'average'.
> It's really a
> waste, so much dungeon, and so little possibility of exploring it
Pish tosh. If I hadn't been lucky and found an axe of flaming, I
would've been doing one of the Hells instead, and I would've been just
fine. It would not have been easy, no. But it is also not impossible,
as you would like to paint it.
>> Use the potion of speed to get to the stairs and escape, then kill the
>> few bees that follow, go down another set, and bypass the level?
> You have assumed multiple times that descending these stairs was a
> safe option.
You have assumed that I meant "downstairs". You always know where one
set of upstairs is on a level, at least; you also should know whether
those upstairs are, or are not, safe. The downstairs are never safe.
There are frequently more than one set of upstairs on a level; if you
are ultra-paranoid, you could step downstairs on each one so that the
upstairs were displayed on a map. I don't do this; it isn't necessary.
But it is available.
> But back to my point:
>
> If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
> win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
Because people don't want to spend extra time, and go get the easiest
ones first, and you only _need_ three to open Zot.
> It's because the game is unbalanced.
Hogwash. Players simply are spoiled by Nethack-like games where the
character can render himself totally invincible and wish up any missing
piece of equipment he needs.
> succeed without finding that =oWizardry, or AoG, or poison resistance,
> or =oMP. If you don't have good items generated, and you aren't a
> 'strong' combo, you are likely to fail (moreso even likely to fail
> than the approximate 1% success rate set this month during the Crawl
> tournament, where the world's best Crawlers competed.) And that is a
> very high failure rate ;-)
Really? Let's just check the NAO stats, shall we?
As of last morning at 3am, there were 623,358 games played on NAO.
As of last morning at 3am, there were 6,195 ascensions.
That's a success rate of .0099 ... or 1%. Gracious me!
No, Crawl is not as easy a game as Nethack. And that is a good thing.
thiskidrob
>
> Vault:8 is pretty dangerous if you aren't prepared. Just ask the shadow
> dragons and storm dragons.
I agree that it is quite dangerous. The fact that Vault 8 is one of
the 3 most common, or easiest, in a certain sense, means that the
other untouched branches are generally even *more* difficult. But
difficulty is often based on items. Again, if you cant find the right
items, some branches are near suicide
>
> > If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
> > win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
>
> Because some branches are easier than others, and players gravitate
> towards the least amount necessary to do. That doesn't mean that the
> other runes are even remotely unobtainable.
Not unobtainable, but basically too risky and not enough payout to
risk a character who could certainly survive just by ignoring the
branch. The good news - survival. The bad news - some branches that
don't get visited much.
>
> > And I thought you were going to mention Tomb, Hells, Pan... most of
> > which are unplayable by your average successful PC.
>
> Please define, in gruesome, specific detail, what you mean by 'average'.
Lets say an average winner is a 3 runer. It is certainly the most
common victory. Most of these chars, in my estimate, would not be
able to do many other branches unless extremely powerful and with the
proper items.
>
> > It's really a
> > waste, so much dungeon, and so little possibility of exploring it
>
> Pish tosh. If I hadn't been lucky and found an axe of flaming, I
> would've been doing one of the Hells instead, and I would've been just
> fine. It would not have been easy, no. But it is also not impossible,
> as you would like to paint it.
Not saying impossible - I guess it is just outside of why I consider
logical risk/reward.
And swamps are waaaay easier than hells for a rune.
Unless someone wants to tell me which if any of the Hells are easier
than Swamps, and why.
>
> >> Use the potion of speed to get to the stairs and escape, then kill the
> >> few bees that follow, go down another set, and bypass the level?
> > You have assumed multiple times that descending these stairs was a
> > safe option.
>
> You have assumed that I meant "downstairs".
fair enough my mistake
> > But back to my point:
>
> > If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
> > win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
>
> Because people don't want to spend extra time, and go get the easiest
> ones first, and you only _need_ three to open Zot.
>
> > It's because the game is unbalanced.
>
> Hogwash. Players simply are spoiled by Nethack-like games where the
> character can render himself totally invincible and wish up any missing
> piece of equipment he needs.
Well, I only played nethack long enough to beat it once with each
class. It was obnoxious even to play it that much due to boring
endgame.
But there was still a chance of dying in Astral, or the fire elemental
level could be tough.
>
> Really? Let's just check the NAO stats, shall we?
>
> As of last morning at 3am, there were 623,358 games played on NAO.
> As of last morning at 3am, there were 6,195 ascensions.
>
> That's a success rate of .0099 ... or 1%. Gracious me!
>
> No, Crawl is not as easy a game as Nethack. And that is a good thing.
Again cool statistics.
I would say Crawl is harder.
But something still seems a little off. I am finding my characters
having 3 runes, and being about level 21 or 22, seemingly weak for the
endgame. Without resistances, this character doesn't have much option
but to do the endgame.
I really think the game could use an additional XP heavy meaty branch
like the lair, or instead, just level slightly quicker. Again, if I
am to be attempting these other branches, I need something to work
with.
Maybe the Shoals will serve this function for me.
To summarize... I too wanted to complain in this thread because I was
killed in Vault 8 trying on an artefact plate mail. I was in a room
with a shut door, became surrounded by 1s, and died before the armor
changing process was over.
Can this be changed? A real adventurer would stop trying to change
his armor, or at least stop to think about it if a monster started
approaching when he thought he was safe.
Anyway, if I kill this level 21 demigod gladiator, Im gonna be
pissed :-p
hurumph
thiskidrob
> Anyway, if I kill this level 21 demigod gladiator, Im gonna be
> pissed :-p
Here is the dump. This guy is pretty average I guess. Im 7 hours
in. I appear to have good armour and items including a +4 robe of
resistance, shield of life prot, and some good jewellry.
I have 2 runes, swamp and snake. I have cleared vaults through 7 and
1/4 of Vaults 8. After this rune, which probably wont get me to XP
level 22 and is in fact more likely to bring me to XP 20, I will have
to make a choice.
Do I attempt the endgame with my level 21 pc with only 17 EV and 17
AC? With my armor to be destroyed without res corr, and with monsters
pulverizing me because of my low AC, Zot isnt too appealing right
now.
But what other choices do I have?
Its so strange. I have good items, okay resistances, and good
mutations, but I still feel weak.
I dont have resist corrosion but I will do the slimes. I dont have
much artifact armor but I will try to use it if I can. I hope to find
a book of necromany for dispel undead, so I could do the Crypt as
well.
Im too weak for endgame with 3 runes at XP 21. Ive killed Boris 4
freakin times man. any bets on how I die?
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.4.3 (crawl-ref) character file.
Sligo the Hacker (Demigod Gladiator) Turns: 117063,
Time: 07:15:23
HP 168/168 (169) AC 17 Str 25 Exp: 21/583306 (19), need:
89493
MP 37/37 EV 17 Int 21 God: No God
Gold 5473 SH 13 Dex 28 Spells: 13 memorised, 6 levels
left
Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : + a - +6,+4 dwarf broad axe (chop)
Res.Cold : + + + Warding : . R - +4 orc robe (resist)
Life Prot.: + . . Conserve : . S - +2 large shield (R-neg)
Res.Poison: + Res.Corr. : . H - +2 helmet (see invis)
Res.Elec. : . Clarity : . C - +1 elf cloak
G - +2 pair of gloves (dex)
Sust.Abil.: . Rnd.Telep. : . B - +1 pair of boots of the
Barnacle {rC+ Str+ {rC+ Str+3 Acc+1}Ðñ"
Res.Mut. : . Ctrl.Telep.: + s - amulet of resist slowing
Res.Slow : + Levitation : . U - ring of Qakhiang {cTele +Tele
rPois} {cTele +Tele rPois}
Saprovore : . . . Ctrl.Flight: . z - ring of Sodurgh {+Inv rC+ MR
Dex+2 SInv} {+Inv rC+ MR Dex+2 SInv}
@: incredibly resistant to magic, extremely stealthy
A: carnivore 2, AC +1, Dex +3
a: Evoke Invisibility, Evoke Teleportation
You are on level 11 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.
You have visited 8 branches of the dungeon, and seen 70 of its levels.
Inventory:
Hand weapons
a - a +6,+4 dwarven broad axe of chopping (weapon)
d - an uncursed orcish blowgun
r - the spear of Sudden Death {flame, rElec}
(You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)
It emits flame when wielded, causing extra injury to most foes and
up to
double damage against particularly susceptible opponents.
It insulates you from electricity.
Missiles
I - 24 curare-tipped needles
Armour
v - a +0 pair of boots of levitation
B - the +1 pair of boots of the Barnacle (worn) {rC+ Str+3 Acc+1}
(You found it on level 1 of the Vaults)
It affects your strength (+3).
It affects your accuracy (+1).
It protects you from cold.
C - a +1 elven cloak (worn)
G - a +2 pair of gloves of dexterity (worn)
H - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
R - a +4 orcish robe of resistance (worn)
S - a +2 large shield of positive energy (worn)
Magical devices
f - a wand of flame (12)
q - a wand of digging (16)
t - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 4}
M - a wand of fire (5)
O - a wand of disintegration (9)
P - a wand of cold (1)
W - a wand of draining (2)
X - a wand of lightning (4)
Y - a wand of teleportation (8)
Comestibles
e - a beef jerky
m - a royal jelly
Q - 3 meat rations
Scrolls
g - a scroll of summoning
i - a scroll of identify
y - 2 scrolls of teleportation
D - 3 scrolls of detect curse
E - 3 scrolls of remove curse
Jewellery
h - an uncursed amulet of controlled flight
p - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
s - an amulet of resist slowing (around neck)
w - an uncursed ring of life protection
x - a +5 ring of protection
z - the ring of Sodurgh (left hand) {+Inv rC+ MR Dex+2 SInv}
(You found it on level 8 of the Vaults)
[ring of protection from cold]
It affects your dexterity (+2).
It increases your resistance to enchantments.
It enhances your eyesight.
It lets you turn invisible.
J - an uncursed amulet of conservation
L - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
N - the ring of Royalty {+Map rC+ EV+5 Int+2 MP+9}
(You found it on level 19 of the Dungeon)
[ring of magical power]
It affects your evasion (+5).
It affects your intelligence (+2).
It protects you from cold.
It lets you sense your surroundings.
U - the ring of Qakhiang (right hand) {cTele +Tele rPois}
(You acquired it on level 12 of the Dungeon)
[ring of teleport control]
It protects you from poison.
It lets you teleport.
Potions
j - 2 potions of resistance
k - 2 potions of speed
l - 4 potions of heal wounds
u - 2 potions of healing
Z - 2 potions of might
Magical staves
b - a staff of wizardry
c - a staff of channeling
Miscellaneous
n - a serpentine rune of Zot
You have 19 experience left.
Skills:
+ Level 10 Fighting
+ Level 18 Axes
- Level 2 Throwing
+ Level 1 Armour
- Level 12 Dodging
+ Level 11 Stealth
+ Level 7 Stabbing
+ Level 12 Shields
+ Level 4 Traps & Doors
+ Level 3 Unarmed Combat
+ Level 10 Spellcasting
+ Level 14 Conjurations
+ Level 9 Enchantments
- Level 2 Summonings
+ Level 11 Necromancy
+ Level 5 Translocations
+ Level 10 Fire Magic
- Level 2 Air Magic
+ Level 2 Poison Magic
+ Level 5 Evocations
You have 6 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:
Your Spells Type Power Success
Level
a - Magic Dart Conj #### Excellent 1
b - Blink Tloc N/A Excellent 2
c - Throw Flame Fire/Conj ###### Excellent 2
d - Mephitic Cloud Pois/Air/Conj #####..... Great 3
e - Repel Missiles Air/Ench #####..... Excellent 2
f - Conjure Flame Fire/Conj #######. Excellent 3
g - Bolt of Fire Fire/Conj #######... Good 6
h - Animate Dead Necr N/A Excellent 4
i - Berserker Rage Ench N/A Excellent 3
j - Apportation Tloc #####..... Excellent 1
k - Confusing Touch Ench ######.... Excellent 1
l - Recall Tloc/Summ N/A Very Good 3
m - Regeneration Ench/Necr #######... Excellent 3
Overview of the Dungeon
Branches: (use G to reach them)
Temple: D:5 Orc : D:11 Elf : Orc:4 Lair : D:11
Swamp : Lair:6 Slime : Lair:9 Snake : Lair:8 Hive : D:12
Vault : D:18 Blade : Vault:6 Crypt : Vault:2
Altars: (use Ctrl-F "altar" to reach them)
Zin: Snake:3
Yredelemnul: D:10
Xom: D:13, Elf:3, Lair:2
Okawaru: Orc:3
Sif Muna: Lair:9, Vault:5
Shops: (use Ctrl-F "shop" to reach them)
D:4: [ D:9: + D:12: * D:18: * D:19: [ D:25: ! D:26: [ Orc:3: *
Orc:4: %
Lair:3: ( Lair:6: ( Lair:10: [ Swamp:1: (%[!+ Snake:3: *
Portals:
Hell: D:21 D:22 D:23 D:24 D:25 D:26
Abyss: D:23 D:25 D:26
Pan: D:24
Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations
You are agile (Dex +3).
Your digestive system is highly specialised to digest meat.
You are partially covered in orange scales (AC + 1).
Message History
Welcome back to the Dungeon!
There is a staircase to the Lair here.
There are no items here.
(D) Dungeon (T) Temple (O) Orcish Mines (E) Elven
Halls
(L) Lair (S) Swamp (M) Slime Pits (P) Snake
Pit
(H) Hive (V) Vaults (B) Hall of Blades (C)
Crypt
(U) Hell
#......# #........#
#..[...# #########....####
#...)..#### #............#
#.........# #............#
#.........# #............#
#.........####............#
#...##....................####
######.......................#
#### #..........Zz...........#
...# #........z.z............#
...# #........z@zZz..........#
.?.# ###......ZzZz.....#######
...# #..............## #####
...# #..............# #....
...# #..............######....
...#####..............#.........
......###############.#....####.
'####.# #.#....# #.
.# #.# ############.#....####.
.# #.# #.........##.#.###.#.##
.####.# #.........##.#.# ##.#.#
You can see eight friendly grey rat zombies, and four friendly six-
headed hydra zombies.
Vanquished Creatures
Boris (4 times) (Vault:4 D:26 Snake:2 Elf:7)
Norris (Vault:3)
Xtahua (Snake:2)
Frederick (D:21)
2 titans (Vault:8)
2 golden dragons (Vault:8)
A deep elf blademaster (Elf:7)
2 sphinxes
A Fiend (Elf:7)
Agnes (Snake:1)
2 storm dragons
Duane (Elf:7)
Frances (Snake:5)
Wayne (Vault:6)
Francis (D:25)
4 frost giants
A tentacled monstrosity (Vault:8)
2 fire giants
18 stone giants
12 greater nagas (Snake:5)
6 deep elf annihilators (Elf:7)
Jozef (Vault:1)
thiskidrob
wrote:
> On 2008-08-25, thiskidrob <thiskid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > But back to my point:
>
> > If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
> > win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
>
> > It's because the game is unbalanced.
>
> > I think the game is "1 key item' too evil right now. Its tough to
> > succeed without finding that =oWizardry, or AoG, or poison resistance,
> > or =oMP. If you don't have good items generated, and you aren't a
> > 'strong' combo, you are likely to fail (moreso even likely to fail
> > than the approximate 1% success rate set this month during the Crawl
> > tournament, where the world's best Crawlers competed.) And that is a
> > very high failure rate ;-)
>
> > Can anyone who runs a Crawl server pull stats from previous versions?
> > I would be curious to see where this current version stands.
>
> What sort of stats do you want? The answer is "Yes, though if it's hard
> I might hand you logfiles and make you do the math." The logfiles are:
>
> Old games: crawl.akrasiac.org/allgames.txt (this is 0.1.4 through 0.3.4)
> 0.4 and above: crawl.akrasiac.org/logfile04 (this is 0.4.0 though now)
>
> You might find it interesting to compare win percentage during the
> percentage in 0.3.4:http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring03/per_day.html
>
> The three months before the upgrade to 0.4 were a .61% win rate.
> The month of the tournament has so far been a 1.05% win rate. Some people
> are trying harder to win during the tournament; others are going for high
> scoring combinations, but that happens outside of the tournament, too.
> The month before the tournament, the only other month of 0.4 data, is at
> a 1.02% win rate (despite a couple of weeks of that XP bug!).
>
> If you want to see what runes people go for, you might find these pages
> is broken, oops) In 0.4, people have varied their runes a lot more,
> as "before" are getting to the Snake and Swamp runes. What this says,
> if anything, I don't really know; but yes, there are statistics, lots
> of them :)
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for the links :)
Robert Vollmert
>
>> Anyway, if I kill this level 21 demigod gladiator, Im gonna be
>> pissed :-p
>
>
> Here is the dump. This guy is pretty average I guess. Im 7 hours
> in. I appear to have good armour and items including a +4 robe of
> resistance, shield of life prot, and some good jewellry.
Nice character. Not exactly an easy combination. For my taste, you're
spreading the skills a little far (melee and enchantments and
conjurations and necromancy), so it's not surprising you're feeling a
little unfinished at this point in the game.
Crypt is no problem without dispel undead. I'd say it's a lot easier
than both Elf and the Vaults, both of which you've cleared. Maybe
learn Silence?
Good luck with Slime. Lots of experience there. Or just try a Hell.
It's easy to escape if you find you're not up to it. Certainly
the Vestibule is easier than Vaults:8. Or dip into Zot.
And turn on Dodging!
Cheers
Robert
thiskidrob
wrote:
Well the slimes are done. I got 2 levels of XP there to bring me to
23. Working the Crypt now.
I raised enchantments because one of my last chars died lategame with
no way to haste himself. At least I can cast that now. Also, I
raised necromancy with Animate Dead, another spell that I thought
might make Zot easier, because it will allow me to have some slaves
there. Also, I am waiting to find a book of Necro to learn Dispel
Undead for endgame also.
I will look into silence, but I was thinking poison arrow for my next
spell if I could. I need some way to kill orbs of zot...
This char will be very powerful if he keeps going....
>
> Cheers
> Robert
Rubinstein
This one is confusing me: do you mean Orbs of Fire (instead of Zot)? And
if so, do you think poison arrow works well against them? This would be
really surprising to me since I considered Orbs as some sort of demon.
R°
David Damerell
>In ADoM you can *always* prepare. In Crawl you never can, its just
>dumb luck.
How's Stabwound played a 19-game winning streak, then? The probability
that a game is inherently unwinnable cannot be very high before the
expected time before a 19-game streak becomes unfeasibly huge.
That said, a theory of roguelike design, not for the first time.
A roguelike can be too easy to provide a challenge even to highly
experienced players. Vanilla NetHack, for example, where several of the
top players have batting rates so close to 100% (when not trying conduct
games) as to make no difference.
A roguelike can be too bland. Roguelikes derive replay value from the way
that randomness throws up new situations every game. Angband, for example,
rarely throws up the particularly unusual combinations of circumstances
that distinguish other games.
A roguelike can have too high a variance in nastiness. Crawl, for example,
sometimes just kills you arbitarily.
The theory is that a roguelike _must_ have one of these faults. You cannot
be challenging and varied without sometimes being unfair. An addendum is
that unfairness is the least bad of them...
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Thursday, August.
Derek Ray
>> dragons and storm dragons.
> I agree that it is quite dangerous. The fact that Vault 8 is one of
> the 3 most common, or easiest, in a certain sense, means that the
> other untouched branches are generally even *more* difficult. But
> difficulty is often based on items. Again, if you cant find the right
> items, some branches are near suicide
Ideally, all branches would have some critical weakness that you would
have to cover before entering the branch -- then, you could have enough
branches that even obtaining only 3 runes might vary greatly from game
to game.
>> > If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
>> > win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
>> Because some branches are easier than others, and players gravitate
>> towards the least amount necessary to do. That doesn't mean that the
>> other runes are even remotely unobtainable.
> Not unobtainable, but basically too risky and not enough payout to
> risk a character who could certainly survive just by ignoring the
> branch. The good news - survival. The bad news - some branches that
> don't get visited much.
That is what I mean by "have to". Right now, the game only requires 3
runes. That means people are going to go for full-on lazy and grab the
easiest 3, just to post up a win -- and _especially_ so during a
tournament.
>> > And I thought you were going to mention Tomb, Hells, Pan... most of
>> > which are unplayable by your average successful PC.
>> Please define, in gruesome, specific detail, what you mean by 'average'.
> Lets say an average winner is a 3 runer. It is certainly the most
> common victory. Most of these chars, in my estimate, would not be
> able to do many other branches unless extremely powerful and with the
> proper items.
Lacking specifics here, we can't dig into this very much. I would say
that a given character has only reached the end of his/her rope when
they've cleared out all the branches they possibly can _and_ burned
through Zot:1-4 checking for items. A certain amount of preparation is
possible here too -- I got gold dragon armour on Zot:1, and _only_
because I had intentionally saved a single enchant armour scroll in my
stash for just such a possibility -- so the first gold dragon I killed
turned into the armour I needed to reach rF++.
I would question how many of those characters had cleared Elf, Crypt,
Blade, and some of the other non-rune branches looking for items before
deciding to 'just win' -- and if they hadn't, while they might've been
unable to do Hells at the time of their victory, that doesn't mean they
wouldn't have eventually been able to.
>> Pish tosh. If I hadn't been lucky and found an axe of flaming, I
>> would've been doing one of the Hells instead, and I would've been just
>> fine. It would not have been easy, no. But it is also not impossible,
>> as you would like to paint it.
> Not saying impossible - I guess it is just outside of why I consider
> logical risk/reward.
And yet, Crawl sometimes forces you to take risks which are not directly
balanced by the rewards -- and that is one of its strong points, to me,
that games do not end up 100% winnable.
> Unless someone wants to tell me which if any of the Hells are easier
> than Swamps, and why.
I would say that Dis with cleansing flame might, in fact, be easier than
Swamps without either poison resistance or a way to effectively kill hydras
in a short timeframe. I know I would've been looking at the Hells very
seriously without the axe of flaming, simply because cleansing flame
_is_ an effective tool there -- and at least in part because I've
splatted on Swamp once before trying to do it without poison resistance
(which also means no confusion resistance from poison clouds, right
next to tons of deep water; no fun!)
>> Hogwash. Players simply are spoiled by Nethack-like games where the
>> character can render himself totally invincible and wish up any missing
>> piece of equipment he needs.
> Well, I only played nethack long enough to beat it once with each
> class. It was obnoxious even to play it that much due to boring
> endgame.
>
> But there was still a chance of dying in Astral, or the fire elemental
> level could be tough.
?! I don't want to get derailed here, but Fire is one of the
easiest levels in Nethack -- just put on your levitation ring, and as
long as you have fire resistance, nothing can hurt you. Are you
thinking of Air and the air elementals? (who are solvable by simply
saving a wand of polymorph, but that's part of Nethack's problem;
there's a solution for everything that conveniently usually isn't also
the solution to something else, requiring no trade-offs).
> But something still seems a little off. I am finding my characters
> having 3 runes, and being about level 21 or 22, seemingly weak for the
> endgame. Without resistances, this character doesn't have much option
> but to do the endgame.
I'd say level up to 27 and see what you get. I would not want to do the
endgame at XL21 at the moment, but my experience is somewhat limited.
thiskidrob
Yes, I meant Orbs of Fire. I know that they wont fall to fire or cold
bolt (at least not in the past). And I didnt think that Dispel Undead
would work on them (it does on death cobs though).
If they are demons, how do you usually deal with them? I found that
poison arrow works, but its risky because it misses alot.
If you have some tips for Orbs of Fire, lemme know!!!!
Rubinstein
> On Aug 26, 11:36 am, Rubinstein <pib...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> thiskidrob wrote:
>>> On Aug 26, 3:32 am, Robert Vollmert
>>> <vollm...@a12.mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>> On 2008-08-26, thiskidrob <thiskid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I will look into silence, but I was thinking poison arrow for my
>>> next spell if I could. I need some way to kill orbs of zot...
>> as some sort of demon.
>
> poison arrow works, but its risky because it misses alot.
>
> If you have some tips for Orbs of Fire, lemme know!!!!
>
Sorry, they are flagged as nonliving, not demonic (my bad). They resist
electricity,fire,cold(!) and - poison. For casters I'd recommend high
level earth spells like Bolt of Iron or (even better) Lehudib's Crystal
Spear. A lower level spell that probably also works is Iskenderun's
Mystic Blast (only level 4 conjuration spell, but pure unresistable
destructive energy). Sorry for not being more precisely, it's been a
while since I entered ZOT with a spellcaster (to be honest, it's been a
while since I entered ZOT at all).
Btw, I guess with poison arrow you mean venom bolt (L5 conjuration,
poison). Strange enough if this actually works, maybe there's also some
portion of pure energy in it. Good luck!
R°
thiskidrob
> thiskidrob wrote:
> > On Aug 26, 11:36 am, Rubinstein <pib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> thiskidrob wrote:
> >>> On Aug 26, 3:32 am, Robert Vollmert
> >>> <vollm...@a12.mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >>>> On 2008-08-26, thiskidrob <thiskid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> I will look into silence, but I was thinking poison arrow for my
> >>> next spell if I could. I need some way to kill orbs of zot...
> >> [...] This would be really surprising to me since I considered Orbs
> >> as some sort of demon.
>
> > If they are demons, how do you usually deal with them? I found that
> > poison arrow works, but its risky because it misses alot.
>
> > If you have some tips for Orbs of Fire, lemme know!!!!
>
> Sorry, they are flagged as nonliving, not demonic (my bad). They resist
> electricity,fire,cold(!) and - poison. For casters I'd recommend high
> level earth spells like Bolt of Iron or (even better) Lehudib's Crystal
> Spear. A lower level spell that probably also works is Iskenderun's
Well I do have Isken at the moment, and am certainly using it.
> Btw, I guess with poison arrow you mean venom bolt (L5 conjuration,
> poison). Strange enough if this actually works, maybe there's also some
> portion of pure energy in it. Good luck!
I was actually referring to Poison Arrow, a level 6 spell from the
book of Annihilations. It is just like bolt of iron, but it poisons
enemies, even ones previously poison resistant. There is something
nice about poisoning nagas and such.
Im ready for Zot now I suppose. I just need to rearrange my spells a
bit to learn Poison Arrow. I really wish I had dispel undead...
Rubinstein
> On Aug 26, 5:15 pm, Rubinstein <pib...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Btw, I guess with poison arrow you mean venom bolt (L5 conjuration,
>> poison).
>
> book of Annihilations.
Uugh, looks like my spoiler pages are hopelessly outdated. There the
Book of Annihilations only contains
Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
Poisonous Cloud
Conjure Ball Lightning
Lehudib's Crystal Spear
Ice Storm
Fire Storm
The spoiler page is
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/spellbooks.shtml
And also the list of all spells (same source):
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/spelldescriptions.shtml
don't have this spell. So better don't ask me for advice, I for myself
feel pretty outdated now! °~°
R°
thiskidrob
spelldescriptions.shtml
>
> don't have this spell. So better don't ask me for advice, I for myself
> feel pretty outdated now! °~°
>
> R°
No worries. Its impossible to know all changes made in the new
versions without reading code (which I dont do). We are all 0.4.3
noobs for a while...
So I ended up getting my first 4.3 win.
When I looked at the high score for this version, I had a Zot 5 death
(berserk orb guardian), and THREE Vault8 deaths. All 3 of my Vault 8
deaths happened to level 21 characters who had no other option but to
go for that last "easy" rune before Zot. They did not make it.
Anyway, thanks all!
wzrd
> Uugh, looks like my spoiler pages are hopelessly outdated. There the
> Book of Annihilations only contains
>
> Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
> Poisonous Cloud
> Conjure Ball Lightning
> Lehudib's Crystal Spear
> Ice Storm
> Fire Storm
>
>
> And also the list of all spells (same source):http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/spelldescriptions.shtml
>
> don't have this spell. So better don't ask me for advice, I for myself
> feel pretty outdated now! °~°
>
> R°
Related to this:
Are there any spoiler pages out there that are up-to-date, or at least
less outdated than the ones mentioned above?
Ivo
Mark Mackey
Yah, sorry, I haven't updated those pages for *ages*. It's on the todo
list, though :).
--
Mark Mackey
The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
Hints, tips and spoilers
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
Rubinstein
> In article <g920f2$m6s$1...@registered.motzarella.org>, Rubinstein
> <pib...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Uugh, looks like my spoiler pages are hopelessly outdated.
>
> Yah, sorry, I haven't updated those pages for *ages*. It's on the
> todo list, though :).
These are good news! :-) Hope you'll announce any chances here...
@thiskidrob: Congratulations!
R°
Rubinstein
> These are good news! :-) Hope you'll announce any chances here...
ooops typo, of course I meant _changes_.
Jarmo Kielosto
> Related to this:
> Are there any spoiler pages out there that are up-to-date, or at least
> less outdated than the ones mentioned above?
>
> Ivo
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/index.html
should be quite up to date. And I just added spells and spellbooks!
--
Jarmo Kielosto
gut
news:yfx*9L...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk:
> gut <none> wrote:
>>Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> (Also, counterpoint: What can prepare you for the first door you
>>> open in ADOM having the most deadly of the door traps and thereby
>>> blowing your head off? I mean, without spending a positively
>>> Angbandesque amount of time farming I:1.)
>>
>>An ultra conservative way of starting, is to use the infinite dungeon.
>
> What part of "without spending a positively Angbandesque amount of
> time farming I:1" didn't you understand?
I understood it fine. We must have a different concept of what an
'Angbandesque amount of time' is. When I said:
"It doesn't take long to get a few exp. levels, and that's usually all
you need for trap protection (unless your an elf)."
What I specifically meant, is that any PC with a bit of toughness has
no fear of traps after just a few minutes in the ID. Perhaps you weren't
refering to time as much as location though, In that case, I would advise
using wilderness encounters to level up a bit. The monsters found on the
plains are usually managable for an exp. level 1 PC, and there are no traps
in the wilderness.
dpeg
> On 20 авг, 03:28, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> I gave the last released version another shot a few months ago and
>> decided (after encountering an unsealed lightning vortex vault on level
>> 15 or so of the dungeon - an occurrence which you *can't* prepare for,
>> and which obliterated my up to then quite promising high elven
>> barbarian) that I was right to have given it up.
>
> In comparing Crawl and ADoM such arguments as this fail to have any
> weight.
There were fitting replies on this, so just let me say that the missing wall
of the vault is bug (fixed by now).
> In ADoM you can *always* prepare. In Crawl you never can, its just
> dumb luck.
Don't play Crawl, play ADOM, then!
David
dpeg
[snipping Derek]
> Ooh, quite the hero you are, risking all to get the Swamp, Snake, and
> Vault rune...
>
> If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
> win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
The obvious answer is that these three are the easiest runes to obtain.
You could ask for all runes being of roughly the same difficulty, but I am
not sure that's the best approach.
> And I thought you were going to mention Tomb, Hells, Pan... most of
> which are unplayable by your average successful PC.
Slime and Hells are okay. For hells, take the one you're best prepared for.
(You know this already, of course.)
> It's really a waste, so much dungeon, and so little possibility of
> exploring it
Would you like to increase the number of runes needed? That would enforce
more exploration, but I think the game is a bit on the longish side -- so
I'd rather try to make it shorter.
> If there are "plenty" of other runes, then why do people almost always
> win with the standard 3, or 3 plus Slime?
>
> It's because the game is unbalanced.
Well, the game is far from perfect, but I think it sits quite comfortably
when compared to Nethack, for example.
> I think the game is "1 key item' too evil right now. Its tough to
> succeed without finding that =oWizardry, or AoG, or poison resistance,
> or =oMP.
I disagree. Finding useful items is necessary, but they don't need to be any
of the above. (Well, lack of poison resistance is pretty bad eventually,
but you can adapt.)
> If you don't have good items generated, and you aren't a
> 'strong' combo, you are likely to fail (moreso even likely to fail
> than the approximate 1% success rate set this month during the Crawl
> tournament, where the world's best Crawlers competed.) And that is a
> very high failure rate ;-)
This is lukewarm reasoning at best. Yes, the game is hard, and intentionally
so. In fact, I am afraid of it being too easy -- the streaks on akrasiac
speak for themselves.
"If you don't have good items generated..." is a death sentence in any RNG
driven game. Yes, it can happen that you find no rings, no books, no shops
in D:1-10. That's bad luck and can happen. Chances are extremely slim, and
the presence of arbitrarily poor seeds gives good players a chance to prove
themselves.
David
dpeg
> On Aug 20, 6:37 am, David Ploog <pl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
>> Kiku and Yrdy are basically out, at the moment. (They will see changes.)
>
> Wait, what do you mean, "out"? My first win was with Yredelemnuul and
> I know I'm not the only one.
This is probably not the strongest of your points, but indeed, I wanted to
bash on Kiku only.
> Y is one of the best-designed gods in the
> game -- probably second, IMHO, after Trog. Fun, strong but not
> unbalanced, distinct but not too narrow.
Good to hear.
> Designing gods that work well is hard, as you know better than anyone.
> I would strongly recommend against making any changes to Yrdy (except
> maybe jazzing up the gift list a little). At best, it's a very low
> priority; at worst, it's liable to make the game less fun rather than
> more.
You'll be happy to know that there are plans (on my part) for many gods
(Kiku, Okawaru, Lugonu, Vehumet and Makhleb -- see SF) but not on Yrdy :)
David
erisdiscordia
> [*] Side note: SSI's Wizard's Crown managed to make /one city/, with
> four not particularly large dungeons, feel bigger than the whole damn
> world of most modern CRPGs.
* Physically big tiles - 4-tile tiles IIRC.
* Quite varied tile types in terms of functions.
* Nice variety of tile graphics.
* (Quite varied) combat screens "inside" tiles.
* Nice big combats (if/when you wanted them, i.e. you didn't have
autocombat on)
* (Dare I say it) Graphical tiles.
* High density of encounters in unexplored tiles (with (IIRC) density
reducing as you frequented an area more often so it didn't become
tedious) also really gave those tiles out in the ruins some emotional
"size."
* Nostalgia. :) Or to put it another way, it was easy for things to
feel whizbang in those days.
OTOH there's no need to entirely write off the amazingness of Wizard's
Crown to nostalgia... it basically invented the SRPG genre, which then
basically went to sleep for umpteen years between its sequel The
Eternal Dagger and the Sega Genesis game Shining Force. (Start the
quibbling...). And the *hardcore* SRPG genre stayed asleep until
perhaps Final Fantasy Tactics, even later after that. (Expect more
quibbling...)
ste...@gmail.com
>
> I think the game is "1 key item' too evil right now. Its tough to
> succeed without finding that =oWizardry, or AoG, or poison resistance,
> 'strong' combo, you are likely to fail (moreso even likely to fail
> than the approximate 1% success rate set this month during the Crawl
> tournament, where the world's best Crawlers competed.) And that is a
> very high failure rate ;-)
Most games are winnable with perfect play if you survive past the
early game. With strong combos like MDFi or w/e, most games are
winnable from turn 1. I think you're exaggerating the failure rate of
item-starved games. Some % of games must end in an uncontrollable loss
to maintain an adequate difficulty level.
Jeff
thiskidrob
Ok,
To be fair, now that we are at .4.3, it does seem nicely balanced. I
guess I overreacted.
I think the issue that I was having was not knowing all of the
changes. When you are you to playing the game a certain way, and the
game changes, well then you are susceptible to failures. For example,
when I died from eating a Shadow dragon. I wasn't expecting it, the
changelog never mentioned it, etc.
After the break in period, I have found the game to be easier again.
Also, to be fair, I am playing combos that are not the easiest ones.
This may also be the reason why my chars have had diffucult times.
Maybe we could benefit from a new thread for new releases. One that
describes all of the changes that didn't make the change log (like
slime walls being diggable on slime 6 after killing the Jelly.)
Again, when only some changes are described, and the others are left
for discovery, well, it leaves a bit of uncertainly, some of which
will end in YASD.
Cheers guys, and this game still rules. Looking forward to next
version.