DCSS - Can someone explain ogres and centaurs?
tenaya
have the most trouble with are ogres and centaurs. Can someone
explain ogres and centaurs?
Ogres, despite having okay aptitudes with both fighting and maces,
just don't seem to survive with me at the helm. To get them to
survive at all I need to play as a beserker but then I get penalized
by having to start with an axe and axe-skill. Are they supposed to be
the most difficult? Does anyone have any suggestions for how to get
an ogre fighter to the Snake Pit, or beyond?
And then there are centaurs who are fast but can't fight. It's nice
to be able to run away but to get experience it still takes slaying
monsters. Bows are fun but eventually the arrows are all gone and
some melee is required. Why are centaur aptitudes so poor?
Thanks!
Stefan O'Rear
> I have played most of the Dungeon Crawl species and the ones that I
> have the most trouble with are ogres and centaurs. Can someone
> explain ogres and centaurs?
>
> Ogres, despite having okay aptitudes with both fighting and maces,
> just don't seem to survive with me at the helm. To get them to
> survive at all I need to play as a beserker but then I get penalized
> by having to start with an axe and axe-skill. Are they supposed to be
> the most difficult? Does anyone have any suggestions for how to get
> an ogre fighter to the Snake Pit, or beyond?
Ogres are the challenge race of Crawl. They probably weren't intended
for that, but it's the niche they've organically grown in to, and they
have to be respected as such. Remember that you have you're an easy
target with no armor - avoid situations where you need to take damage.
Manipulate fights (using corners or whatever you have) to make fights
one on one whenever possible, then rely on your superior damage output
to lead you to victory.
> And then there are centaurs who are fast but can't fight. It's nice
> to be able to run away but to get experience it still takes slaying
> monsters. Bows are fun but eventually the arrows are all gone and
> some melee is required. Why are centaur aptitudes so poor?
Centaur aptitudes are poor to compensate for the speed. With high HP
and speed, centaurs are the standard race of streak players; they're
not forgiving of inefficiency, but are very hardy against random
encounters. Be methodical, and remember that you don't need to be a
good fighter - you are better at avoiding fights than any other race.
Stefan
garron
> Ogres, despite having okay aptitudes with both fighting and maces,
> just don't seem to survive with me at the helm. To get them to
> survive at all I need to play as a beserker but then I get penalized
> by having to start with an axe and axe-skill. Are they supposed to be
> the most difficult? Does anyone have any suggestions for how to get
> an ogre fighter to the Snake Pit, or beyond?
Try a Death Knight of Yred, or Chaos Knight of Makhleb or Lugonu. All
3 let you start off with a boosted ankus, which is a decent starting
weapon, and some early god-granted powers that should make surviving
easier.
If you live long enough you are pretty much guaranteed a vorpalized
giant spiked club, which is comparable to the much rarer executioner's
axe. Just make sure you've got a lot of skill in M&F before you start
using one, 200% delay can be a killer.
Also since ogres are bad at armour and have good spellcasting, it
might help to learn some low-level spells once you get going. Blink,
spammals, sting, detect xx, and even repel missles, are all useful and
not too hard to get usable in the mid-game.
David Ploog
> I have played most of the Dungeon Crawl species and the ones that I
> have the most trouble with are ogres and centaurs. Can someone
> explain ogres and centaurs?
[snip details]
Apart from what Stefan already said:
* Ogres have very good Spellcasting even though all the other magical
aptitudes are bad. This means they have an easy time picking up some
magic. This helps, as long as you don't go Trog, of course.
* Ogres can make good use of javelins and large rocks.
* I don't think that you can play a pure hunter, but I did try some Hu
recently and if you will find enough arrows to keep going, if you do
enchant them a bit.
David
Jac
> * I don't think that you can play a pure hunter, but I did try some Hu
> recently and if you will find enough arrows to keep going, if you do
> enchant them a bit.
I disagree. I've managed a couple of 3 rune wins that relied almost
entirely on crossbows/bows (DETh and CuHu) - and this was in 0.4.5
(before enchanting ammo reduced mulching). Mind you, both of them
also had a bit of minor magic and short blades.
Jac
Harald Korneliussen
races, including Ogres. Last I looked in the source, large rocks were
a special case, in that they did a lot of damage but got little (or
no?) benefit from throwing skill. They do train throwing though, and
Ogres have OK aptitude for it. A good strategy is probably to switch
from rocks to javelins later on.
The thing that annoys me about new Ogres is that a race without food
problems was merged with one with, and the food problems were kept.
They got the worst from ogre mages and not much I like in return.
I appreciate the reasons for a food clock, but I loathe the food
metagame of perpetually looking for chunks, casting or channeling to
deliberately get hungry when you've just slain a Yak, etc. I like the
races that can relax a bit with all that - now, that means kobolds
only (mummies? ugh!)
David Ploog
> The boost to missiles does give a slight boost to many of the runtier
> races, including Ogres. Last I looked in the source, large rocks were
> a special case, in that they did a lot of damage but got little (or
> no?) benefit from throwing skill. They do train throwing though, and
> Ogres have OK aptitude for it. A good strategy is probably to switch
> from rocks to javelins later on.
I think both stay viable throughout.
> The thing that annoys me about new Ogres is that a race without food
> problems was merged with one with, and the food problems were kept.
> They got the worst from ogre mages and not much I like in return.
This is wrong. They didn't simply get the "high hunger, no eating bonus"
from old OM. Instead, they can now eat rotten meat. This means (a) that
your chunks will last much longer and (b) that casting expensive spells is
easier to do (on the hunger front).
We deliberately used an eating bonus different from all the others (Ko,
HO, Tr).
David
Harald Korneliussen
> > The thing that annoys me about new Ogres is that a race without food
> > problems was merged with one with, and the food problems were kept.
> > They got the worst from ogre mages and not much I like in return.
>
> This is wrong. They didn't simply get the "high hunger, no eating bonus"
> from old OM.
I didn't say they did. I know they got saprovore in return, which I
don't think makes up for the fast digestion at all. Sure, you may
avoid having to dip into your storables as often, but that's not my
problem - I have yet to lose a single character to starvation (I may
have lost the occasional troll or spriggan to pre-starvation
desperation, but that's a lot about carelessness out of annoyance!)
What I mind is having to butcher pick up every chunk you see, eat them
every 20 seconds, and picking up all seven chunks, and dropping them
when you have too many and they start encumbering you (OK, Ogres have
a certain advantage on that!).
tenaya
>
> Thanks!
This was a very helpful discussion and gave me some good ideas/
pointers. Thanks everyone!
Tenaya
tenaya
> have the most trouble with are ogres and centaurs. Can someone
> explain ogres and centaurs?
>
> Ogres, despite having okay aptitudes with both fighting and maces,
> just don't seem to survive with me at the helm. To get them to
> survive at all I need to play as a beserker but then I get penalized
> by having to start with an axe and axe-skill. Are they supposed to be
> the most difficult? Does anyone have any suggestions for how to get
> an ogre fighter to the Snake Pit, or beyond?
Okay, good news! My Ogre Chaos Knight has picked up 4 runes and I'm
at about 45,000 turns or so.
Team Demon has been a lot of fun although I have suffered from not
picking up all of the experience that I could have.
so, now I am trying to figure out how to progress. My Dodging is up
to level 13, which is sweet, because it means that when someone
attacks me they hit me, as opposed to when I had low dodging skill and
someone attacked me ... and they hit me. At this point I am wondering
if I should try to find and wear some dragon armor and work on Armor
skill? Doing so will lead to a big delay in making use of any of my
new spells but my +4 robe (resistance) and +2 cloak (preservation!)
just don't seem to keep me very safe.
Thanks! I've never won a character without heavy armor although I've
gotten 2 Merfolk crusaders to 8 runes so this is new territory for me.
Tenaya
tenaya
Here is my char dump ...
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.5.2 (crawl-ref) character file.
Tenaya the Worldly Agent (Ogre Chaos Knight) Turns: 50859, Time:
06:38:02
HP 162/191 AC 10 Str 26 Exp: 21/397254 (776), need:
65295
MP 38/38 EV 18 Int 14 God: Makhleb *****
Gold 3543 SH 0 Dex 13 Spells: 9 memorised, 5 levels
left
Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : + b - +2,+1 dwarf great mace (holy)
Res.Cold : + . . Warding : . Y - +4 robe {rC+ rF+}
Life Prot.: + . . Conserve : + (shield restricted)
Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : + (helmet restricted)
Res.Elec. : . Clarity : . J - +2 cloak {rCorr, Cons}
(gloves unavailable)
Sust.Abil.: . Rnd.Telep. : . (boots unavailable)
Res.Mut. : . Ctrl.Telep.: . W - amulet "Erelloint" {+Rage Dex
+3}
Res.Slow : . Levitation : . I - ring of see invisible
Saprovore : + . . Ctrl.Flight: . L - ring of life protection
@: very resistant to magic, fairly stealthy
A: unfitting armour, carnivore 1, fast metabolism 1, magic resistance
1,
saprovore 1, AC +1, EV +1
a: Minor Destruction, Lesser Servant of Makhleb, Major Destruction,
Greater
Servant of Makhleb, Renounce Religion, Evoke Berserk Rage
You are on level 2 of the Crypt.
You worship Makhleb.
Makhleb is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.
You have visited 10 branches of the dungeon, and seen 62 of its
levels.
You have visited 1 portal chamber (including bazaars).
You have collected 6505 gold pieces.
You have spent 2971 gold pieces at shops.
Inventory:
Hand weapons
b - a +2,+1 dwarven great mace of holy wrath (weapon)
g - an uncursed blowgun
j - an uncursed orcish dagger (quivered)
X - the +6,+4 spiked flail "Shrotrao" {holy, +Blink rPois Str+3}
(You found it on level 8 of the Vaults)
It has been blessed by the Shining One to cause great damage to the
undead
and the unholy creatures of Hell or Pandemonium.
It affects your strength (+3).
It protects you from poison.
It lets you blink.
Missiles
c - 10 curare-tipped +0 needles {!f}
Armour
w - a +2 shield of positive energy
J - a +2 cloak of preservation (worn)
Y - a +4 robe of resistance (worn)
Magical devices
a - a wand of fire
r - a wand of fire (7)
s - a wand of random effects
u - a wand of paralysis
v - a wand of teleportation (4)
x - a wand of draining {zapped: 1}
B - a wand of draining {zapped: 6}
C - a wand of teleportation
Comestibles
M - 7 meat rations
Scrolls
d - 6 scrolls of teleportation
i - 7 scrolls of remove curse
A - 3 scrolls of identify
D - 3 scrolls of blinking
Q - a scroll of magic mapping
S - 5 scrolls of fog
U - 6 scrolls of detect curse
Jewellery
e - the amulet of Cekugob {Ward -TELE Hunger rElec rPois rN+ AC+1 EV
+1}
(You found it on level 17 of the Dungeon)
[amulet of warding]
It affects your AC (+1).
It affects your evasion (+1).
It insulates you from electricity.
It protects you from poison.
It protects you from negative energy.
It prevents most forms of teleportation.
It speeds your metabolism.
h - an uncursed ring of teleportation
l - the ring of the Garden {+Map EV+2 Int+2}
(You found it on level 8 of the Vaults)
[ring of evasion]
It affects your evasion (+2).
It affects your intelligence (+2).
It lets you sense your surroundings.
m - an uncursed ring of poison resistance
o - the ring of Bayriz {Ice EV+5 Int+2}
(You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)
[ring of ice]
It affects your evasion (+5).
It affects your intelligence (+2).
p - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
q - a large jade amulet
z - the ring of the Ten Demons {Fire Dam+3}
(You found it on level 8 of the Vaults)
[ring of fire]
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+3).
I - a ring of see invisible (right hand)
L - a ring of life protection (left hand)
N - an uncursed amulet of conservation
P - an uncursed ring of sustenance
R - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
T - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
W - the amulet "Erelloint" (around neck) {+Rage Dex+3}
(You found it on level 8 of the Vaults)
[amulet of rage]
It affects your dexterity (+3).
Z - a +0,+6 ring of slaying
Potions
f - 6 potions of speed
k - 2 potions of invisibility
n - 3 potions of heal wounds
y - 8 potions of healing
Magical staves
t - a rod of destruction [ice] (12/12)
(You found it on level 1 of the Crypt)
You have 776 experience left.
Skills:
+ Level 13 Fighting
+ Level 17 Maces & Flails
+ Level 15 Dodging
- Level 4 Stealth
- Level 1 Stabbing
- Level 1 Shields
+ Level 3 Traps & Doors
+ Level 1 Spellcasting
- Level 20 Invocations
+ Level 6 Evocations
You have 5 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:
Your Spells Type Power Success
Level
a - Summon Butterflies Summ #......... Fair 1
b - Apportation Tloc #......... Fair 1
c - Blink Tloc N/A Poor 2
d - Levitation Air/Ench #......... Poor 2
e - Summon Small Mammals Summ #....... Fair 1
f - Repel Missiles Air/Ench #......... Poor 2
g - Berserker Rage Ench N/A Cruddy 3
h - Regeneration Ench/Necr #......... Cruddy 3
i - Swiftness Air/Ench #......... Poor 2
Overview of the Dungeon
Branches: (use G to reach them and ?/B for more information)
Temple: D:4 Orc : D:8 Elf : Orc:3 Lair : D:13
Swamp : Lair:6 Slime : Lair:10 Snake : Lair:5 Hive : D:12
Vault : D:16 Blade : Vault:4 Crypt : Vault:3
Altars: (use Ctrl-F "altar" to reach them and ?/G for information
about gods)
Xom: Orc:2
Vehumet: D:3
Trog: Lair:7
Shops: (use Ctrl-F "shop" to reach them)
D:8: ( D:14: ( D:15: ( D:18: [ Lair:3: ! Lair:5: ! Lair:7: +
Swamp:2: +[
Vault:4: ( Vault:6: %
Level Annotations
Dungeon
3: Tossi
8:
15: done
17: done
18: done
19: done
Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations
Your body does not fit into most forms of armour.
You have tough skin (AC +1).
You have a fast metabolism.
You can tolerate rotten meat.
You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field (EV +1).
Your digestive system is specialised to digest meat.
You are resistant to magic.
tenaya
>
> Okay, good news! My Ogre Chaos Knight has picked up 4 runes and I'm
> at about 45,000 turns or so.
> Team Demon has been a lot of fun although I have suffered from not
> picking up all of the experience that I could have.
Okay, bad news ... just died in the Hall of Blades. The weapons there
absolutely shredded me and a single hand axe of crushing took me from
100+ hp to 0 even with a potion of speed and some potions of heal
wounds. I managed to melee them one on one but I got stranded in the
big room at 50% hp.
However, any posthumous advice would be welcome!
290094 Tenaya the Theurge (level 22, -2/198 (201) HPs)
Began as an Ogre Chaos Knight on Jan 16, 2010.
Was a Believer of Makhleb.
Slain by a runed hand axe of chopping (11 damage)
... in the Hall of Blades on Jan 19, 2010.
The game lasted 07:34:30 (61581 turns).
Tenaya the Theurge (Ogre Chaos Knight) Turns: 61581, Time:
07:34:31
HP -2/198 (201) AC 11 Str 26 Exp: 22/527320 (4733), need:
16079
MP 39/39 EV 17 Int 14 God: Makhleb **
Gold 4166 SH 0 Dex 10 Spells: 9 memorised, 6 levels
left
Skills:
+ Level 14 Fighting
+ Level 19 Maces & Flails
- Level 15 Dodging
- Level 4 Stealth
- Level 2 Stabbing
- Level 1 Shields
+ Level 4 Traps & Doors
+ Level 1 Spellcasting
- Level 21 Invocations
+ Level 7 Evocations
garron
> Okay, bad news ... just died in the Hall of Blades.
Ah, too bad. Looked like you were doing alright until then.
> However, any posthumous advice would be welcome!
Yeah: stay out of the Hall of Blades. ;)
In all seriousness, I often don't do Blade with any melee-only
characters anymore after too many similar experiences, unless I really
need a weapon. Dancing weapons can be real hard to hit. Ogres on the
other hand are a nice, big target...
Besides that, I would have said put more points into spellcasting, or
just switch out to some dragon armour if you weren't happy with
dodging, but it sounded like you were going to try that anyhow.