DCSS how to play Zin
Nils
Around level 20 I changed to Zin because I was out of food. I haven't
found any food shop and my stash was low except for an apple or two. Zin
was my only chance.
Long story short: I died due to lack of food. I sacrificed over 6000
gold at the alter and piety was good, but boy - praying while sarving
cost a lot of piety.
I wasn't able to keep up the piety..
So how is Zin supposed to work? And what's the deal with "Recite the
Axioms of Law". I tried it a couple of times, but the effect never
seemed to be worth the MP and more important the the delay. I got more
than one bloody nose while reciting..
Nils
Szanth
Yeah I have yet to try Zin as a deity, because he seems kinda crap. In
fact, all the 'good' gods do...
Martin Read
>Yeah I have yet to try Zin as a deity, because he seems kinda crap. In
>fact, all the 'good' gods do...
I can't comment on the current state of affairs, but historically both
TSO and Elyvilon were perfectly good _if_ you knew how to play them.
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
David Ploog
> On Oct 2, 3:14 pm, Nils <n.pipenbri...@cubic.org> wrote:
>> So I had this deep elf earth elementarlist...
>>
>> Around level 20 I changed to Zin because I was out of food. I haven't
>> found any food shop and my stash was low except for an apple or two. Zin
>> was my only chance.
>>
>> Long story short: I died due to lack of food. I sacrificed over 6000
>> gold at the alter and piety was good, but boy - praying while sarving
>> cost a lot of piety.
>>
>> I wasn't able to keep up the piety..
Nils, how often did you have to pray for food?
>> So how is Zin supposed to work? And what's the deal with "Recite the
>> Axioms of Law". I tried it a couple of times, but the effect never
>> seemed to be worth the MP and more important the the delay. I got more
>> than one bloody nose while reciting..
Zin is the one god that ended up hosed after overhaul. The former
incarnation was a mirror image of TSO, and I believe the basic plan for
Zin can work out, but the details are off. Recite should be much more
forgiving (i.e. useful). In 0.8, Zin also has an Imprison power that
should be interesting tactically.
> Yeah I have yet to try Zin as a deity, because he seems kinda crap. In
> fact, all the 'good' gods do...
This is nonsense. TSO is as strong and straightforward as ever, if you're
willing to visit undead/evil branches. Elyvilon is stronger than before
and has a lot more tactical appeal due to pacification.
David
Robert
need a god, but would benefit from a very effective late-game panic
button.
- if you ran out of food in the first place, you were doing it wrong
(i.e., using too much high end magic)
- the point of Recite is to have a piety-free way to train
Invocations. It can have amusing and effective tactical consequences
among orc bands, but nothing that mephitic cloud doesn't do so much
more effectively
- protection from disease, rotting, mutations, and miasma is nice
- Sanctuary is a panic button that just works, and is the reason you
spend the rest of the game getting your nose bloodied while reciting.
David Ploog
> Zin builds piety slowly. Zin-worship is for builds that mostly don't
> need a god, but would benefit from a very effective late-game panic
> button.
Yes, this is right and it's why Zin has a little use already now. The
other bit is painless switching among good gods. Of course, these are
nowhere enough to warrant being a _starting_ god and also not have an
incomplete god like this at all.
On the other hand, the Sanctuary effect is too good to throw away and
having three good gods sounds cool, too.
David
Szanth
Yeah, TSO is strong, but I guess I haven't gotten a high enough level
with him, maybe? It seems far more useful to get, I dunno, Okawaru or
Trog for physical power.
eoghan griffin
@l6g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, mayna...@gmail.com says...
Oka and trog are good early game, tso excells in the extended endgame.
Its common enough to take oka early and switch to tso later.
David Ploog
> Yeah, TSO is strong, but I guess I haven't gotten a high enough level
> with him, maybe? It seems far more useful to get, I dunno, Okawaru or
> Trog for physical power.
Elyvilon is useful right from the start (and I mean it: being able to
neutralise all the poisoners of the early dungeon (all animals!) together
with self-healing and piety from weapon sacrifices) and keeps being useful
throughout (ancient liches can be neutralised by devoted healers).
TSO and Zin suffer from being only really useful later on. I support
making Elyvilon the only starting god among the good ones.
David
Rubinstein
> Elyvilon is useful right from the start (and I mean it: being able to
> neutralise all the poisoners of the early dungeon (all animals!) together
> with self-healing and piety from weapon sacrifices) and keeps being useful
> throughout (ancient liches can be neutralised by devoted healers).
>
> TSO and Zin suffer from being only really useful later on. I support
> making Elyvilon the only starting god among the good ones.
Don't you consider Fedhas Madash belonging to the good ones, too? In my
book he's the only way to play some sort of a druid-like character in
crawl. And he's a "good" one as long as you consider plants and fungi as
"good" lifeforms (ok, oklob plants are a special case and debatable).
Anyway, I vote for Fedhas as a starting god for humans and elfs, adding
a "druid option" or at least a free choice for human and elf priests.
Btw, Fedhas also can be quite useful in the early game. Right now I'm
playing a HuEE who met an altar of Fedhas on D:3 while stair dipping on
D:2. Since playing a "Druid" was my initial plan I didn't hesitate. A
bit later, while further exploring D:3, I fall through a shaft right
into the inner corner of a big kobold chamber on D:5. Fortunately I had
one scroll of blink and 3 of teleport and so I could escape from the
immediate danger. While searching for the upstairs - I was way too weak
for diving further down at this point, survival on this level was still
tough enough - I realized the whole level was flooded with big kobolds
very soon. This fights were doable, but very potion expensive. Fedhas'
decomposition ability saved my butt a few time in that I got some time
to recover.
--
...da scheuste das Grinsal und astete von Huepf zu Huepf,
um den Schonboden zu walden!
David Ploog
> Am 03.10.2010 19:42, schrieb David Ploog:
>
>> Elyvilon is useful right from the start (and I mean it: being able to
>> neutralise all the poisoners of the early dungeon (all animals!) together
>> with self-healing and piety from weapon sacrifices) and keeps being useful
>> throughout (ancient liches can be neutralised by devoted healers).
>>
>> TSO and Zin suffer from being only really useful later on. I support
>> making Elyvilon the only starting god among the good ones.
>
> Don't you consider Fedhas Madash belonging to the good ones, too?
One could make Fedhas part of the good bloc, yes. But I think it's better
to not do so. (There are interesting ideas for good gods around, so their
number may increase in the future.)
> In my book he's the only way to play some sort of a druid-like character
> in crawl.
Thank you. I quite like how Fedhas turned out.
> And he's a "good" one as long as you consider plants and fungi as "good"
> lifeforms (ok, oklob plants are a special case and debatable). Anyway, I
> vote for Fedhas as a starting god for humans and elfs, adding a "druid
> option" or at least a free choice for human and elf priests.
We are trying to reduce the number of starting gods. And Fedhas is not
that interesting on D:1: you lack the fruits to do much.
When you speak of human/elf priests, you're referring to monsters?
> Btw, Fedhas also can be quite useful in the early game. Right now I'm
> playing a HuEE who met an altar of Fedhas on D:3 while stair dipping on
> D:2. Since playing a "Druid" was my initial plan I didn't hesitate. A
> bit later, while further exploring D:3, I fall through a shaft right
> into the inner corner of a big kobold chamber on D:5. Fortunately I had
> one scroll of blink and 3 of teleport and so I could escape from the
> immediate danger. While searching for the upstairs - I was way too weak
> for diving further down at this point, survival on this level was still
> tough enough - I realized the whole level was flooded with big kobolds
> very soon. This fights were doable, but very potion expensive. Fedhas'
> decomposition ability saved my butt a few time in that I got some time
> to recover.
Great story :) If you would have had access to spores already, that would
have solved the issue right away.
David
Rubinstein
> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Rubinstein wrote:
>> Am 03.10.2010 19:42, schrieb David Ploog:
>> .. Anyway, I vote for Fedhas as a starting god for humans
>> and elfs, adding a "druid option" or at least a free choice for
>> human and elf priests.
>
> We are trying to reduce the number of starting gods. And Fedhas is
> not that interesting on D:1: you lack the fruits to do much.
>
> When you speak of human/elf priests, you're referring to monsters?
No, I said "starting god" for humans and elfs, hence I meant PCs of course.
Szanth
I dunno. I've tried a few healers, but it's a completely different
game when you're trying to -avoid- killing most things. He just seems
like a hassle to follow.
David Ploog
> On Oct 3, 1:42 pm, David Ploog <dpl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Szanth wrote:
>>> On Oct 3, 5:25 am, David Ploog <dpl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Szanth wrote:
>>>>> Yeah I have yet to try Zin as a deity, because he seems kinda crap. In
>>>>> fact, all the 'good' gods do...
>>
>>>> This is nonsense. TSO is as strong and straightforward as ever, if you're
>>>> willing to visit undead/evil branches. Elyvilon is stronger than before
>>>> and has a lot more tactical appeal due to pacification.
>>
>>> Yeah, TSO is strong, but I guess I haven't gotten a high enough level
>>> with him, maybe? It seems far more useful to get, I dunno, Okawaru or
>>> Trog for physical power.
>>
>> Elyvilon is useful right from the start (and I mean it: being able to
>> neutralise all the poisoners of the early dungeon (all animals!) together
>> with self-healing and piety from weapon sacrifices) and keeps being useful
>> throughout (ancient liches can be neutralised by devoted healers).
>
> game when you're trying to -avoid- killing most things. He just seems
> like a hassle to follow.
Who said you have to play a pacifist conduct game? You kill enemies as
normal and in addition have the power to neutralise some monsters (animals
are easiest, which makes snakes etc. a breeze on early levels).
And we spent a lot of time to make sure the pacification interface is as
smooth as possible. I see no hassle, I see a very different and thematic
god.
David
Szanth
Does the god not get ticked off at you if you attack monsters not
actively attacking you?
David Ploog
> Does the god not get ticked off at you if you attack monsters not
> actively attacking you?
Sure. (And I never said Elyvilon is perfect: neutralised monsters getting
stuck is an issue.) But you can play around that easily after you've seen
the problem once or twice. (Yes, this is not ideal, and we're happy to be
enlightened about how to improve matters. But as concept and gameplay are
working, and the god is more useful than its older self, I will object to
'hassle' and 'crap'. Although I will stop objecting in public. :)
David
Szanth
It's all subjective, of course. I just can't deal with keeping track
of which monsters to kill and which to not and when; I'd rather not
use the only god in the game that requires me to do so.
David Ploog
> On Oct 4, 4:05 am, David Ploog <dpl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Szanth wrote:
>>> Does the god not get ticked off at you if you attack monsters not
>>> actively attacking you?
>>
>> Sure. (And I never said Elyvilon is perfect: neutralised monsters getting
>> stuck is an issue.) But you can play around that easily after you've seen
>> the problem once or twice. (Yes, this is not ideal, and we're happy to be
>> enlightened about how to improve matters. But as concept and gameplay are
>> working, and the god is more useful than its older self, I will object to
>> 'hassle' and 'crap'. Although I will stop objecting in public. :)
> It's all subjective, of course. I just can't deal with keeping track
> of which monsters to kill and which to not and when; I'd rather not
> use the only god in the game that requires me to do so.
There might be some display problem... In the console display (that I am
familiar with), those Elyvilon-pacified creatures look very different from
the rest. They have a special branding and are also distinguished on the
monster list? Is it not like this for you? Are you using tiles, and
there's no such branding there? I can understand that playing Elyvilon is
not fun if pacified monsters look just like hostile ones.
David
Szanth
I use tiles, yeah, but they have the branding. Kind of a neutral-
looking smiley face, as opposed to a smiling smiley face. Though they
still attack me if I get too close, which gets frustrating, because
they'll sometimes follow me if I'm not fast enough.
David Ploog
> On Oct 4, 6:15 am, David Ploog <dpl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Oct 2010, Szanth wrote:
>>> On Oct 4, 4:05 am, David Ploog <dpl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Szanth wrote:
>>>>> Does the god not get ticked off at you if you attack monsters not
>>>>> actively attacking you?
>>
>>>> Sure. (And I never said Elyvilon is perfect: neutralised monsters getting
>>>> stuck is an issue.) But you can play around that easily after you've seen
>>>> the problem once or twice. (Yes, this is not ideal, and we're happy to be
>>>> enlightened about how to improve matters. But as concept and gameplay are
>>>> working, and the god is more useful than its older self, I will object to
>>>> 'hassle' and 'crap'. Although I will stop objecting in public. :)
>>> It's all subjective, of course. I just can't deal with keeping track
>>> of which monsters to kill and which to not and when; I'd rather not
>>> use the only god in the game that requires me to do so.
>>
>> There might be some display problem... In the console display (that I am
>> familiar with), those Elyvilon-pacified creatures look very different from
>> the rest. They have a special branding and are also distinguished on the
>> monster list? Is it not like this for you? Are you using tiles, and
>> there's no such branding there? I can understand that playing Elyvilon is
>> not fun if pacified monsters look just like hostile ones.
>
> looking smiley face, as opposed to a smiling smiley face. Though they
> still attack me if I get too close, which gets frustrating, because
> they'll sometimes follow me if I'm not fast enough.
It is intentional that Elyvilonised creatures are not strictly neutral: we
don't want players to use them and trivialise tactical encounters.
The current use is this: you see a bunch of potentially dangerous
monsters, say yaks or a hydra. You can pacify one or more of them, which
makes the situation somewhat safer for you and somewhat more dangerous for
the remaining hostile monsters. However, you cannot pacify a monster and
flee through it.
(Those "pacified" monsters are quite indifferent: they can attack anyone
too close to them.)
David
b0rsuk
>
> TSO and Zin suffer from being only really useful later on. I support
> making Elyvilon the only starting god among the good ones.
This is simply incorrect. Halo is the #1 reason I choose TSO. Halo is
incredibly useful for some character types - anyone who uses ranged
weapons or somewhat inaccurate spells/abilities. Bolt of Inaccuracy
starts hitting about 3 out of 4 times. This includes Air/Earth
conjurers, draconians, and ogres. In fact, I'll go as far as to say
the only non-frustrating way to play an ogre with GSC is a paladin
(shields work but sort of miss the point). That way you get the halo
at D:2 at worst. With no defensive abilities, ogres really need to hit
hard before they develop Dodging.
Halo is a big help against orc wizards (the guys who kill more players
than orc wizards) and Sigmund because it cancels invisibility. In one
game I was congratulating myself for using Magic Dart against an
invisible orc wizard (it ALWAYS hits). It turned out he used a
vampiric dagger, so I would have a chance if I used the mace, but
never with the dart.
The fact that Halo is so unpopular speaks a lot about the value of
accuracy in Crawl. And has anyone noticed there are multiple damage-
increasing brands but no brand that increases accuracy against
monsters of X type ?
It used be that Dodging was bad at low levels, whereas heavy armor was
useful from the start. Now armor is weaker and you need skill
investment to use it.
b0rsuk
> This is simply incorrect. Halo is the #1 reason I choose TSO. Halo is
> incredibly useful for some character types - anyone who uses ranged
> weapons or somewhat inaccurate spells/abilities.
One thing I want to add - halo would totally make sense as a spell of
Vehumet, more spells hitting.
There are some awkward design choices, negative synergies of good
gods: halo would be very helpful for summoners, bot TSO won't allow
allies to die. Elyvilon grants healing, yet you use it on enemies.
Again, you can't use it on summons, because of the "demon summoning is
evil" template. I don't remember if Ely would forgive a death of an
ally.
Mark Mackey
Nils <n.pipe...@cubic.org> wrote:
>So I had this deep elf earth elementarlist...
>
>Around level 20 I changed to Zin because I was out of food. I haven't
>found any food shop and my stash was low except for an apple or two. Zin
>was my only chance.
Apart from the gods debate in teh rest of this thread, I'll just point
out that running out of food as a caster is a good indication that you
weren't taking spell hunger seriously enough. Sure, you might be able to
cast Lehudib's, but that doesn't mean you should. The food cost for the
high-level spells is there for a reason, and you've just discovered the
reason :).
Also, a level 20 DEEE? Hadn't you cleared the Hive?
--
Mark Mackey
The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
Hints, tips and spoilers
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
David Ploog
> On Oct 5, 1:47 pm, b0rsuk <jaze...@gmail.com> wrote:
[TSO being not useful early on.]
>> This is simply incorrect. Halo is the #1 reason I choose TSO. Halo is
>> incredibly useful for some character types - anyone who uses ranged
>> weapons or somewhat inaccurate spells/abilities.
Okay, Halo is useful. I still believe that Elyvilon is more attractive on
D:1 and 2 than TSO.
> One thing I want to add - halo would totally make sense as a spell of
> Vehumet, more spells hitting.
You mean ability of Vehumet, I guess (and probably a passive one).
> There are some awkward design choices, negative synergies of good
> gods: halo would be very helpful for summoners, bot TSO won't allow
> allies to die.
TSO provides allies. TSO does not mind allies dying.
> Elyvilon grants healing, yet you use it on enemies.
You can also use it on anyone else. (There is a lack of powerful, singular
summons, that's true.)
> Again, you can't use it on summons, because of the "demon summoning is
> evil" template. I don't remember if Ely would forgive a death of an
> ally.
No, Elyvilon does not. TSO does.
David
Nils
> In article <8gpek9...@mid.uni-berlin.de>,
> Apart from the gods debate in teh rest of this thread, I'll just point
> out that running out of food as a caster is a good indication that you
> weren't taking spell hunger seriously enough.
I think the big problem was, that I was extremely unlucky when it came
to food. The random number generator just gave me three shops, none of
them with interesting stuff or food.
I got fast metaboism early on and never found a source of poison
resistance or the amulet of gourmand, which limited my the food source
further.
I tried to pay attention to the food clock and only used Lehudib in
emergency situations. My main weapon still was sticky flame and bolt of
magma :-)
> Also, a level 20 DEEE? Hadn't you cleared the Hive?
Sure i did, but I burned through the food way to fast. The change to Zin
made the food situation even worse because I was unable to eat
intelligent beeings.
Try to tackle swamp and shoals that way.
Crawl - always gives you new entertaining ways to die.. :-)
Anyway, my main motivation for Zin was to stop the food clock and
eventually collect enough food from the floor to proceed. I never
thought that Zin makes the food situation even worse.
Nils
Peter Huebner
>
> Anyway, my main motivation for Zin was to stop the food clock and
> eventually collect enough food from the floor to proceed. I never
> thought that Zin makes the food situation even worse.
>
Chei is a good choice for hungry types I found. Troll monk of Chei
worked really well, food-wise, until he got boxed in in an unfortunate
setup by hard hitters.
-P.
b0rsuk
>
> So how is Zin supposed to work? And what's the deal with "Recite the
> Axioms of Law". I tried it a couple of times, but the effect never
> seemed to be worth the MP and more important the the delay. I got more
> than one bloody nose while reciting..
>
Currently Zin is just unfinished. There's nothing you're missing, the
god just doesn't offer much to anyone.
As for food, a while ago I proposed that Zin should turn contaminated,
poisoned and mutagenic chunks into clean ones, but no one responded.
It would fit with Zin's purification theme. Divine Manna is just a
newbie trap and produces misconceptions.