DCSS 0.5.2 Tukimas Dance and RandArts..
Nils
I can cast Tukimas Dance on randart weapons without problems. This is as
far as I know the only spell that can enchant weapons. Not that I want
to complain :-) My enchanted short sword just cleared out elven-halls
lv1 :-)
Bug or feature?
Cheers,
Nils
Öö Tiib
> Just wondering if this is a bug or intended:
>
> I can cast Tukimas Dance on randart weapons without problems. This is as
> far as I know the only spell that can enchant weapons. Not that I want
> to complain :-) My enchanted short sword just cleared out elven-halls
> lv1 :-)
I have also noticed that tukimas dance creates stronger and better
protected ally than most summonings and that does train enchantments
school that is otherwise also very useful. Dancing weapon is even not
summoned while stick turned into snake is summoned snake. Monsters
with warding or abjuration cannot undo such dance.
> Bug or feature?
Using search engine on bug/change trackers at sourceforge is best way
to find out if something is intended or bug.
Seems intended but there are complaints about it being bit too strong
or too low level spell open so it may be changed.
Nils
> Using search engine on bug/change trackers at sourceforge is best way
> to find out if something is intended or bug.
Ah - thanks. Didn't knew about that one.
> Seems intended but there are complaints about it being bit too strong
> or too low level spell open so it may be changed.
I have to agree. Making the spell level 6 *AND* makeing the dancing
weapons weaker would be a good idea imho.
Five dancing short swords take down nearly any opponent in two rounds.
That's just to easy.
Cheers,
Nils
David Ploog
> �� Tiib wrote:
>> Seems intended but there are complaints about it being bit too strong
>> or too low level spell open so it may be changed.
>
> I have to agree. Making the spell level 6 *AND* makeing the dancing
> weapons weaker would be a good idea imho.
>
> Five dancing short swords take down nearly any opponent in two rounds.
> That's just to easy.
Yes. Tukima's Dancing is a great spell, but definitely due for a nerf.
David
serg271
There so may solutions which are better than direct nerf. Give all
monster mages apportation(or abjuration) spell and make live weapon
vulnerable to it. Make magnetic monsters (iron troll?) able to attract
and eat metallic weapon, gaining health from it. Make electric
discharge able to change weapon "charge" to hostile. etc.Instead o
making something worse you can make the rest better.
Martin Read
>There so may solutions which are better than direct nerf. Give all
>monster mages apportation(or abjuration) spell and make live weapon
>vulnerable to it. Make magnetic monsters (iron troll?) able to attract
>and eat metallic weapon, gaining health from it. Make electric
>discharge able to change weapon "charge" to hostile. etc.Instead o
>making something worse you can make the rest better.
http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki.php/Main/UselessUsefulSpell should be
required reading for anyone contemplating opening their mouth on the
subject of spells in computer games. You are advocating making the
spell useless against anything it's worth using on. (Almost all of the
most dangerous monsters are casters.)
Far better to just make it less obviously-broken.
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
serg271
> serg271 <serg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >There so may solutions which are better than direct nerf. Give all
> >monster mages apportation(or abjuration) spell and make live weapon
> >vulnerable to it. Make magnetic monsters (iron troll?) able to attract
> >and eat metallic weapon, gaining health from it. Make electric
> >discharge able to change weapon "charge" to hostile. etc.Instead o
> >making something worse you can make the rest better.
>
> required reading for anyone contemplating opening their mouth on the
> subject of spells in computer games. You are advocating making the
> spell useless against anything it's worth using on. (Almost all of the
> most dangerous monsters are casters.)
As any naive generalization not applicable here. There is a lot of
situations than casters not around, but dangerous monster(s) are, TD
will still be a great spell, just not universal as it is now.
Martin Read
>On Oct 26, 1:59=A0am, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki.php/Main/UselessUsefulSpellshould be
Your news posting agent's quoting is broken; please fix it. (There was
a space before "should" in the original post.)
>> required reading for anyone contemplating opening their mouth on the
>> subject of spells in computer games. =A0You are advocating making the
>> spell useless against anything it's worth using on. (Almost all of the
>> most dangerous monsters are casters.)
>
>As any naive generalization not applicable here. There is a lot of
>situations than casters not around, but dangerous monster(s) are, TD
>will still be a great spell, just not universal as it is now.
Almost all *really* dangerous places have plenty of casters.
Peter Huebner
@a6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, ser...@gmail.com says...
First up, here's a corrected link to that web page:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UselessUsefulSpell
and it really is a pretty interesting dissertation with bazillions of
examples, many taken from computer games.
I can't say much about Tukima's Dance. I only ever cast that spell once
in DCSS and .... I _think_ I got nailed by my own weapon turned hostile,
but I'm not sure because my character died on the next turn. Might've
been something else, I missed reading what it was ... heh ;-) was
majorly surprised to find myself effectively disarmed.
As for the UselessUsefulSpell trope:
I think it's bad enough that even fairly middling monsters have such
high resistance, I don't even try to slow grey/black snakes any more,
chances are I'll be dead before it takes on the 5th attempt or so. All
out offense is more effective for my avatars. It's almost like a 'boss
fight' (with the implied "immune to anything except direct damage") in
that respect.
At least that's how it stacks up for an elementalist in the low teens. I
have two going at the moment, the level 14 SE IE that I haven't touched
in a while and a level 13 DE FE. Low levels of enchantment may have
something to do with it, not sure, but wands of slowing or confusion
seem to fail about as often.
Another example was an iron troll in the Orc Mines 2: 4 tries to slow,
then the slow lasted all of 3 turns. Really: what's the point?
Particularly if as FE you can barely damage the thing, and just want to
slow it to deal with that pesky Orc High Priest that keeps pulling
demons out of his pointy hat.
Run, stairs, heal, wait for summonses to expire, rinse and repeat.
-P.
Stefan O'Rear
> At least that's how it stacks up for an elementalist in the low teens. I
> have two going at the moment, the level 14 SE IE that I haven't touched
> in a while and a level 13 DE FE. Low levels of enchantment may have
> something to do with it, not sure, but wands of slowing or confusion
> seem to fail about as often.
How high was your Evocations spell? 0? That's why wands keep failing.
For a dedicated Enchanter, debuffs can be very deadly, especially when
combined with Stabbing. Put stone giant to sleep on the first try, stab
and one hit kill, rinse, repeat.
-sorear
Ed Cogburn
> In article <9b2f5dfc-e921-4baa-8d04-d1f2bb0edec6
> @a6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, ser...@gmail.com says...
>>
> As for the UselessUsefulSpell trope:
> I think it's bad enough that even fairly middling monsters have such
> high resistance, I don't even try to slow grey/black snakes any more,
> chances are I'll be dead before it takes on the 5th attempt or so. All
> out offense is more effective for my avatars. It's almost like a 'boss
> fight' (with the implied "immune to anything except direct damage") in
> that respect.
> At least that's how it stacks up for an elementalist in the low teens. I
> have two going at the moment, the level 14 SE IE that I haven't touched
> in a while and a level 13 DE FE. Low levels of enchantment may have
> something to do with it, not sure, but wands of slowing or confusion
> seem to fail about as often.
> Another example was an iron troll in the Orc Mines 2: 4 tries to slow,
> then the slow lasted all of 3 turns. Really: what's the point?
> Particularly if as FE you can barely damage the thing, and just want to
> slow it to deal with that pesky Orc High Priest that keeps pulling
> demons out of his pointy hat.
Yea, 'slow' just isn't isn't useful/helpful enough to any moderate/low level
caster type to be worth it due to, as you say, mediocre success rate + low
duration. Better off saving those MPs for either offense or escape.
But look on the bright side, at least you can use those useless wands of
Slowing to buff your Evocations. :)
> Run, stairs, heal, wait for summonses to expire, rinse and repeat.
Casters do seem to spend a lot of time loitering around stairs, don't they?
Ed Cogburn
> serg271 <ser...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>There so may solutions which are better than direct nerf. Give all
>>monster mages apportation(or abjuration) spell and make live weapon
>>vulnerable to it. Make magnetic monsters (iron troll?) able to attract
>>and eat metallic weapon, gaining health from it. Make electric
>>discharge able to change weapon "charge" to hostile. etc.Instead o
>>making something worse you can make the rest better.
>
> http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki.php/Main/UselessUsefulSpell should be
> required reading for anyone contemplating opening their mouth on the
> subject of spells in computer games. You are advocating making the
> spell useless against anything it's worth using on. (Almost all of the
> most dangerous monsters are casters.)
>
> Far better to just make it less obviously-broken.
Huh? Your calling it a 'UselessUsefulSpell' and broken, but the GP and David
are talking about it being *too powerful* and needing to be nerfed in some
way. I don't think that qualifies as 'broken' at least not in the normal
sense of the word.
David Damerell
>Huh? Your calling it a 'UselessUsefulSpell' and broken, but the GP and David
>are talking about it being *too powerful* and needing to be nerfed in some
>way.
Try actually reading his article. He is saying _if_ it was nerfed in the
way suggested _then_ it would be a Useless Useful Spell.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Yesterday was Tuesday, October.
Today is Wednesday, October.
Tomorrow will be Thursday, October.
Martin Read
>Huh? Your calling it a 'UselessUsefulSpell' and broken, but the GP and David
>are talking about it being *too powerful* and needing to be nerfed in some
>way. I don't think that qualifies as 'broken' at least not in the normal
>sense of the word.
I was accusing serg271 of advocating *turning it into* a Useless Useful
Spell.
Ed Cogburn
> Ed Cogburn <edwco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Huh? Your calling it a 'UselessUsefulSpell' and broken, but the GP and
>>David are talking about it being *too powerful* and needing to be nerfed in
>>some
>>way. I don't think that qualifies as 'broken' at least not in the normal
>>sense of the word.
>
> I was accusing serg271 of advocating *turning it into* a Useless Useful
> Spell.
Right, I see your point, it was just the 'make it less obviously-broken'
comment that then threw me, seems as if at that point there were 2 different
definitions of 'broken' (as in too strong, or as in useless) being used
simultaneously. Sorry.
Ed Cogburn
> Quoting Ed Cogburn <edwco...@gmail.com>:
>>Huh? Your calling it a 'UselessUsefulSpell' and broken, but the GP and
>>David are talking about it being *too powerful* and needing to be nerfed in
>>some way.
>
> Try actually reading his article.
I did, the article wasn't the problem (its accurate unfortunately), it was
just the way the word 'broken' was being used in this conversation that threw
me.
Mark Mackey
Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
>
>As for the UselessUsefulSpell trope:
>high resistance, I don't even try to slow grey/black snakes any more,=20
>chances are I'll be dead before it takes on the 5th attempt or so. All=20
>out offense is more effective for my avatars. It's almost like a 'boss=20
>fight' (with the implied "immune to anything except direct damage") in=20
>that respect.=20
Enchantment spells are difficult to balance well: if they work all of
the time, then the game becomes trivial (oh, I'll just slow that Ancient
Lich before fighting it). OTOH, if they never work against all of the
nasty beasties that you *need* them to work on, then they are pointless.
The balance is primarily done with the skill system. Yes, Slow is likely
to be useless against a grey snake when cast by your IE with
Enchantments skill 5. However, if you'd focused on Enchantments more,
had it as your main spell skill (say, level 15 or so), and were wielding
a staff of enchantments, then slowing a grey snake is a much more
certain bet.
All-out-offence is more useful for your avatars, as you mention, because
*that's where your skills are*, just like axe-wielding dwarven fighters
tend to kill critters faster by hitting them with axes than by casting
Magic Dart at them.
In general, the offensive Enchantments spells are great, *provided* that
you're focussing a lot of your skill points into Enchantments. If you've
just got Enchantments as a side skill, don't bother: use your
Enchantments skill for self-buffs (Swiftness, Haste, Berserk etc etc)
instead, as spell power is much less relevant there.
Note that the converse is also true: if you're focussing on
Enchantments, don't expect that Ice Bolt you're casting with lousy
Conjurations and Ice Magic skill to make much of a dent in the mid-game
monsters. Crawl generally rewards specialisation: not all spells are
going to be useful for all characters.
--
Mark Mackey
The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
Hints, tips and spoilers
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/