Question on character builds for Stone Soup
Jim Gleaves
Question on character builds for Stone Soup
I am playing around with Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup and enjoying it.
But I am rather surprised to find there’s no centralized place to
discuss strategies, character builds, etc. Depending on an IRC
channel and a newsgroup is very . . . 1994. I really don’t want to
get 80% through the game and learn that mummies are a bad choice in
the end-game since they are resistant to everything except fire and
the last levels are all fire-damage, or whatever.
Below is the closest thing I’ve found to a discussion, but it’s from
the Dungeon Crawl wiki. Do these comments still apply to Stone Soup?
Are there other recommended race/class combinations that are not in
this list?
-------------- Start Post ------------------
From http://chaosforge.org/crawl/index.php?title=Class_and_Race_Combinations_for_Beginners
Generally speaking, the best character for a beginner player is a
Minotaur berserker, using axes or maces and heavy armour. This is a
good combination as minotaurs are very powerful in melee combat and
thus easy to survive with, and being a berserker removes the
complexities of magic as they are forbidden the use of magic by Trog.
The extra unarmed horn attacks also help.
Another common choice for beginners are trolls, especially as
berserkers using unarmed combat, as trolls can eat raw meat when not
hungry so rarely starve to death, a more common problem for beginners.
They also don't need to give much thought to armor, as they can only
wear certain types of armor.
Other suggestions are:
• Mountain dwarf fighters have good hitpoints and a shield, as well as
excellent armor skill, making early survival easy. They are best of
all races in following: axes (a bit better than minotaurs), fighting
skill (on par with minotaurs), armor, shields and maces & flails. They
are also extremely powerful in late game.
• Minotaur monks have the second-best unarmed potential (trolls being
the best with their claws), but much superior skill aptitudes,
especially defensively.
• Hill orc priests are competent warriors who can command literal
small armies of orc followers who make excellent comrades, receive
bonuses to wearing orcish gear, and can smite foes from a distance.
Switch to heavy armor asap.
• Spriggans, particularly assassins, stalkers, enchanters and venom
mages. (Spriggans are very fast and eat almost no food, however
Spriggan spellcasters will have serious food problems in late game).
• Deep elf conjurers, wizards, summoners, necromancers, and
elementalists (particularly Fire Elementalists, for those who wish to
kill from afar).
• Mummy wizards/necromancers - although very weak, they don't require
food at all, so can be played very slowly by more completive players.
• Vampire Enchanters - most likely the best choice for learning basics
of stealth-based characters, via abundance of food and using
enchantments to sneak up on enemies and Stab them.
• Vampire Death Knight - Due to Yredelemnul not requiring corpse
sacrifices and making up for poor spell casting abilities.
• Demonspawn Chaos Knight of Makhleb - They aren't super good but they
are fun and help you learn the basics of the game. Makhleb is the best
god of the three for beginners, as his powers are straightforward and
powerful. Xom, being psychotic, is not a great god for a beginner.
Also, Lugonu's granted powers are odd and difficult to use, as well as
she causes you to start in the Abyss. The mutations given from being
Demonspawn are almost always useful as well, but unfortunately this
class has only one skill it is good at, Invocations. However, this
does compound Makhleb's usefulness, as his Destruction will be
powerful and easy to cast, and his demons will rarely be hostile.
----------------- End Post ---------------------------------
I have generally found in other roguelike games that I prefer good-
aligned melee types with a splash of healing magic. Most of the time
you just hit things with your sword, but as needed you can heal and
buff yourself. This leads me to think I would most likely prefer a
paladin or a crusader, but I notice that both those are missing from
this list. I also have read that it’s possible to start to do magic
by choosing a god to worship, so perhaps a fighter who adopts the
right god would work as well?
Thanks!
Stefan O'Rear
>
> Question on character builds for Stone Soup
>
> I am playing around with Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup and enjoying it.
> But I am rather surprised to find there’s no centralized place to
> discuss strategies, character builds, etc. Depending on an IRC
> channel and a newsgroup is very . . . 1994. I really don’t want to
> get 80% through the game and learn that mummies are a bad choice in
> the end-game since they are resistant to everything except fire and
> the last levels are all fire-damage, or whatever.
An IRC channel is a perfectly good mode of discussion.
> Below is the closest thing I’ve found to a discussion, but it’s from
> the Dungeon Crawl wiki. Do these comments still apply to Stone Soup?
> Are there other recommended race/class combinations that are not in
> this list?
Do you not realize that the modern game tells you, during character
creation, what is and is not a recommended combination?
> From http://chaosforge.org/crawl/index.php?title=Class_and_Race_Combinations_for_Beginners
> ----------------- End Post ---------------------------------
This entire post was made obsolete when I added automatic character
hints (in 0.4.0).
> I have generally found in other roguelike games that I prefer good-
> aligned melee types with a splash of healing magic. Most of the time
> you just hit things with your sword, but as needed you can heal and
> buff yourself. This leads me to think I would most likely prefer a
> paladin or a crusader, but I notice that both those are missing from
> this list. I also have read that it’s possible to start to do magic
> by choosing a god to worship, so perhaps a fighter who adopts the
> right god would work as well?
Characters with more than one specialty tend to be harder because you
have to make a lot of choices, so we tend not to recommend them.
-sorear
Jim_G
> An IRC channel is a perfectly good mode of discussion.
Well, I do not mean to besmirch IRC as a method of communication, but
I was unable to find any archives of this channel online. I'd much
rather read an existing discussion than ask basic newbie questions of
the experienced players. Most roguelike games I've played in the last
10 years have one or more web forums like http://angband.oook.cz/forum/
.
> Do you not realize that the modern game tells you, during character
> creation, what is and is not a recommended combination?
Yes, I do find that useful, and it's certainly a good starting point
for viable combinations. What I find missing is any comparisons or
discussion of these various builds. Most of the other roguelike games
I've played have web forums like http://angband.oook.cz/forum with a
lot of lively discussion.
> Characters with more than one specialty tend to be harder because you
> have to make a lot of choices, so we tend not to recommend them.
A good point and I'll keep that in mind. And after I wrote my first
post I realized that DCSS is being used as a tag in this newsgroup,
which has helped me find some useful information.
David Ploog
> I'd much rather read an existing discussion than ask basic newbie
> questions of the experienced players. Most roguelike games I've played
> in the last 10 years have one or more web forums like
> http://angband.oook.cz/forum/
DCSS is under active development, which makes spoiler creation that much
harder. For 'fixed' games, there will be good and polished spoilers over
the years.
> Most of the other roguelike games I've played have web forums like
> http://angband.oook.cz/forum with a lot of lively discussion.
Well, there is the SomethingAwful forum:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652
It has the SA special type of humour, of course.
Also, there are attempts to keep the Crawlwiki up to date. Everyone can
help here:http:
chaosforge.org/crawl/index.php?title=CrawlWiki
David
Stefan O'Rear
>
>> An IRC channel is a perfectly good mode of discussion.
>
> Well, I do not mean to besmirch IRC as a method of communication, but
> I was unable to find any archives of this channel online. I'd much
> rather read an existing discussion than ask basic newbie questions of
> the experienced players. Most roguelike games I've played in the last
> 10 years have one or more web forums like http://angband.oook.cz/forum/
> .
Personally I see that in Crawl's favor; web forums are a usability
disaster and I find them extremely painful to read. Crawl is also a much
more dynamic game than most others, and a lot of "common wisdom" is
already obsolete, so archives are not all that useful.
Also the ##crawl admin is very big keeping ##crawl a space where mistakes
can be forgotten.
##crawl maintains a pseudo-wiki, visible at:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html
There's also a real wiki, but it suffers from a very bad case of being
obsolete.
>> Do you not realize that the modern game tells you, during character
>> creation, what is and is not a recommended combination?
>
> Yes, I do find that useful, and it's certainly a good starting point
> for viable combinations. What I find missing is any comparisons or
> discussion of these various builds. Most of the other roguelike games
> I've played have web forums like http://angband.oook.cz/forum with a
> lot of lively discussion.
For the most part we try to keep the game in a state where all builds
are viable and none are particularly overpowered. If you find out from
anyone that a specific type of character is much easier or harder than
the rest (except for explicit challenge races and classes, recognizable
for having lots of grey), it's likely to change in the next release.
Re-reading what I wrote I seem to have let a bit of anger show; sorry,
I was involved in the creation of the grey combo system and I tend to
feel a bit insulted when I think people are brushing off my work. A
failing, I know.
>> Characters with more than one specialty tend to be harder because you
>> have to make a lot of choices, so we tend not to recommend them.
>
> A good point and I'll keep that in mind. And after I wrote my first
> post I realized that DCSS is being used as a tag in this newsgroup,
> which has helped me find some useful information.
Be careful what you read. Crawl balance changes dramatically from
release to release and anything you find older than a couple months
is likely to be useless.
-sorear
Jim_G
On Oct 22, 12:10 am, Stefan O'Rear <stefa...@cox.net> wrote:
> Crawl is also a much
> more dynamic game than most others, and a lot of "common wisdom" is
> already obsolete, so archives are not all that useful.
Ah, I see. I was unaware that Crawl was still so fluid.
> Also the ##crawl admin is very big keeping ##crawl a space where mistakes
> can be forgotten.
Heh heh!
> Re-reading what I wrote I seem to have let a bit of anger show; sorry,
> I was involved in the creation of the grey combo system and I tend to
> feel a bit insulted when I think people are brushing off my work. A
> failing, I know.
I work in the software industry myself, I completely understand your
position, and apology easily accepted.
> Be careful what you read. Crawl balance changes dramatically from
> release to release and anything you find older than a couple months
> is likely to be useless.
Noted!
garron
> On 2009-10-21, Jim Gleaves <jimglea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Fromhttp://chaosforge.org/crawl/index.php?title=Class_and_Race_Combinatio...
> > ----------------- End Post ---------------------------------
>
> This entire post was made obsolete when I added automatic character
> hints (in 0.4.0).
Automatic character hints (giving hints as to which jobs are good for
a specific race, or vice versa, right?) are very useful (I'm really
not trying to brush it off ;) but I don't think they obsolete a
discussion about good builds for beginners at all. They don't tell you
how certain races are really easier than others, or how some jobs are
going to be harder for a new player to get a handle on. Ogre
Transmuter and Draconian Paladin are both "good" combinations
according to the character hints, but are going to be much, much
harder than say MDFi or DEFE for a beginner.
> > I have generally found in other roguelike games that I prefer good-
> > aligned melee types with a splash of healing magic. Most of the time
> > you just hit things with your sword, but as needed you can heal and
> > buff yourself. This leads me to think I would most likely prefer a
> > paladin or a crusader, but I notice that both those are missing from
> > this list. I also have read that it’s possible to start to do magic
> > by choosing a god to worship, so perhaps a fighter who adopts the
> > right god would work as well?
One thing that I find is a bit unusual in Crawl is that there really
isn't any holy magic of sorts. Even the typical "turn undead" spell is
an evil spell in Crawl. You can get some god powers that do the same
things, specifically Elyvilon (healing) or The Shining One (fighting
undead/demons).
Anyhow I really like Crusaders (especially Merfolk). I'm not sure
they're the best beginner combo because you have two skill systems to
train (magic and fighting) instead of one, and you're mostly stuck in
light armour which means you can't absorb damage the same way a heavy-
armoured fighter can. But once you get going you get a really good set
of buffs and good weapons skills. If you're interested I can try a
small write-up to get you going.
Otherwise, Mountain Dwarves and Minotaurs are generally the easiest
races to get started with. Berserker is quite a suitable clas, or
Fighter if you want to try out other gods besides Trog. I've also been
having lots of fun playing Death Knights of Yredelemnul, again maybe
not as easy as Berserkers but you get some really nice powers of
raising undead and draining life from everything around you.
Jim_G
> Automatic character hints (giving hints as to which jobs are good for
> a specific race, or vice versa, right?) are very useful (I'm really
> not trying to brush it off ;) but I don't think they obsolete a
> discussion about good builds for beginners at all.
Agreed, as you can imagine.
> One thing that I find is a bit unusual in Crawl is that there really
> isn't any holy magic of sorts. Even the typical "turn undead" spell is
> an evil spell in Crawl. You can get some god powers that do the same
> things, specifically Elyvilon (healing) or The Shining One (fighting
> undead/demons).
Interesting, and that sounds like the type of character I enjoy
playing and role-playing. So does a fighter who worshiped Elyvilon
just get one or two healing capabilities, or can they use spells to to
some extent?
> Anyhow I really like Crusaders (especially Merfolk). I'm not sure
> they're the best beginner combo because you have two skill systems to
> train (magic and fighting) instead of one, and you're mostly stuck in
> light armour which means you can't absorb damage the same way a heavy-
> armoured fighter can. But once you get going you get a really good set
> of buffs and good weapons skills. If you're interested I can try a
> small write-up to get you going.
Why yes, I would be very interested in your thoughts and experience as
a Crusader. Thanks for any light you can shed on this. If you have
any experience in how they compare to Paladins I’d be interested in
that as well. I've played a few disposable characters to get a basic
feel for them, but of course mid-game and late-game can be a very
different experience. I've notice several posts in this newsgroup
along the lines of "My character was doing absolutely great until I
came around a corner and was two-shotted before I could react." I'm
trying to do my homework and minimize the chances of that happening.
serg271
> > Anyhow I really like Crusaders (especially Merfolk). I'm not sure
> > they're the best beginner combo because you have two skill systems to
> > train (magic and fighting) instead of one, and you're mostly stuck in
> > light armour which means you can't absorb damage the same way a heavy-
> > armoured fighter can. But once you get going you get a really good set
> > of buffs and good weapons skills. If you're interested I can try a
> > small write-up to get you going.
>
> Why yes, I would be very interested in your thoughts and experience as
> a Crusader.
Crusaders are a lot of fun, though Merfolk is not an optimal choice
IMO. Crusaders are strength-based chars, an Merfolk are not good with
strength-based weapon - axes and maces. There is an artifact "Sword of
Power" but one can not depend on it. Best crusaders IMO are
demonspawns and draconians. Demonspawn was my the only victory, and I
came pretty close with draconian. Another near victory was with
Merfolk unarmed transmuter-crusader, but that combo also depend on
having luck of finding both spellbooks.
Some Crusader tips:
Most important item for Crusader(and berserker) is the amulet of
resist slowing. That amulet continue Haste state and remove after-
berserk slowdown.
Good choice of god is Macleb. It became really handy with Greater
Demon summon, and in case of summoning hostile demon just go berserk
and dispatch it.
Best axe is the executioner axe, but it's quite rare. Better as soon
as you get non-artifact battleaxe (or battleaxe of chopping) start
enchant it and vorpalaise it.
Ogre is another potentially interesting crusader, but I've never
managed to advance it quite far.
Stefan O'Rear
>> Why yes, I would be very interested in your thoughts and experience as
>> a Crusader.
>
> Crusaders are a lot of fun, though Merfolk is not an optimal choice
> IMO. Crusaders are strength-based chars, an Merfolk are not good with
> strength-based weapon - axes and maces. There is an artifact "Sword of
Why does STR weight matter? My only crusader win was Merfolk, and I
find them far easier than other races.
Peter Huebner
@f18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, j...@jimgleaves.com says...
>
> Interesting, and that sounds like the type of character I enjoy
> playing and role-playing. So does a fighter who worshiped Elyvilon
> just get one or two healing capabilities, or can they use spells to to
> some extent?
Generally things bestowed by gods will not be in the nature of spells,
but 'abilities', using invocation skill. If you do [a*] from time to
time you'll see your current abilities. Some of those are race dependent
(vampires can transmute themselves into a bat, or start 'bottling blood
from corpses' at level 5), some are granted by the gods once you reach a
certain level of piety. Invocation typically uses up some piety, and at
times food also. I think it's Trog, the berserker god that gives you the
power to berserk first, later will grant regeneration ...
To start casting spells after you've started in a class that doesn't
have spellcasting to start with, you have to read scrolls, lots and lots
of scrolls. This works best if you have xp in the xp-pool. You can cheat
a bit by, say, reading a few scrolls of curse armor, then a scroll of
remove curse. Eventually you'll get a message that you've acquired the
spellcasting ability and from then on you can learn spells from books.
> > Anyhow I really like Crusaders (especially Merfolk). I'm not sure
> > they're the best beginner combo because you have two skill systems to
> > train (magic and fighting) instead of one, and you're mostly stuck in
> > light armour which means you can't absorb damage the same way a heavy-
> > armoured fighter can. But once you get going you get a really good set
> > of buffs and good weapons skills. If you're interested I can try a
> > small write-up to get you going.
>
> Why yes, I would be very interested in your thoughts and experience as
> a Crusader. Thanks for any light you can shed on this. If you have
> any experience in how they compare to Paladins I?d be interested in
> that as well.
I have the feeling that paladin is purposely a 'hard' class to do in
DCSS - The Shining One, the god of paladins, puts all kinds of
restrictions on you in what you can do: not use any 'evil' weapons, not
use poison in any form, not attack monsters that are caught in a trap or
intelligent monsters that are fleeing, paralyzed etc .... just makes
life a lot harder and at times exasperating (Siggi kept beating on me
with his flaming scythe, now he's running away, and I have to wait until
he turns and attacks me again before I can finish him off, yeah, right,
as if he wouldn't, thanks TSO!) ... that kind of thing. In return you
get some sort of aura that makes things easier to hit at the start, and
I think TSO will protect you against negative energy later on, but early
on in the game that's about as useful as tits on a bull.
Depending on playing style, other race and professions might appeal to
you. I like spriggans because they can run away from just about anything
except ranged combat. Fast agile characters is one thing I like to play
in RPGs as well, so that style suits me.
Sneaky is not half bad, you can do very well for yourself by playing a
stalker (casting-enabled assassin with poison magic) or transmuter
(merfolk or spriggan for instance) because they will get to cast
mephitic cloud by the time they reach DL3 and those clouds are just
GREAT for crowd control. Monsters confused by mephitic have a very large
target painted on them.
And one thing that was repeatedly pointed out to me: There are NO
precast classes in DCSS. The profession you pick at the start determines
what skills you start out with, but from then on you can develop every
avatar in any direction you care to. Naturally, it's a good idea to
develop them in directions that are aligned with the race's natural
abilities (and you can hit [%} on the character generation screens to
get nice big tables to see which race has what propensities. Bigger
number is bad, lower number means you have to use less xp to train a
skill.
h.t.h., -Peter
garron
> > One thing that I find is a bit unusual in Crawl is that there really
> > isn't any holy magic of sorts. Even the typical "turn undead" spell is
> > an evil spell in Crawl. You can get some god powers that do the same
> > things, specifically Elyvilon (healing) or The Shining One (fighting
> > undead/demons).
>
> Interesting, and that sounds like the type of character I enjoy
> playing and role-playing. So does a fighter who worshiped Elyvilon
> just get one or two healing capabilities, or can they use spells to to
> some extent?
It sounds like you're not totally clear on the differences between
invocations (Gods) and magic. It also sounds like you have no problem
learning this from someone else as opposed to figuring it out for
yourself, so, spoiler warning:
MAGIC:
-Learned by memorizing spells from spellbooks. The number of spell
slots you can memorize is affected by your character level and
spellcasting skill (and INT?). Non-casting jobs start without
spellcasting or any spellbooks, but those can be trained (read scrolls
with experience in your exp. pool) and found respectively.
-Spells fall under one to three spell schools, i.e. Conjurations/Fire.
(many use two schools, with one of those often being elemental). Spell
power and casting success is governed by your ability in those schools
(among other things). Miscasting spells uses up mana and can have
negative effects -- nothing to worry about for lower level spells, but
potentially deadly for high ones. Certain gods can negate these
effects, though.
-Wearing heavy armour will seriously hinder your ability to cast
spells. Light armour does too, in fact, but much less so. The higher
the EV penalty on the armour, the worse it will affect your spells.
Training the Armour skill can offset this penalty, but generally
characters who are good at training armour are bad at spellcasting,
and vice versa.
-Casting spells also makes you hungrier. Spell hunger is offset by
spellcasting skill and Intelligence stat. In general, a character who
is casting spells at all should value high INT much more than high DEX
or STR.
INVOCATIONS:
-Given to you through your god. You can only worship one god at a
time. Your abilities are determined by how much piety you have with
your god, which can be increased by doing things that your god likes.
-All invocations use the Invocations skill, and strength and success
of invocations depend on this skill. Some jobs start with it, but any
race/job can learn it just by using their god's powers. The exception
is Trog, who's powers depend solely on peity. Failing to use an
Invocation does nothing besides waste a turn, although a few
invocations (summons) can have negative results if successful with low
skill.
-Using most invocations uses up MP, but also uses some piety. Some
gods have a low-level ability that doesn't cost any piety, but not all
do.
-Heavy armour has no effect on using invocations at all.
-Using invocations makes you hungrier, but generally less so than
spells. I don't *think* invocation hunger can be changed, but I'm not
sure about this.
Basically, all characters, magic users or not, can make use of
invocations. Characters that use magic generally want a god that will
give them powers that enhance their magic, or compliment it -- many
invocations have an equivalent spell, so you want to avoid
redundancy.
As far as specific gods' powers, the wiki is probably current enough
to at least give an overview.
> Why yes, I would be very interested in your thoughts and experience as
> a Crusader. Thanks for any light you can shed on this.
I'll write up a post in a separate thread, soon.
On Oct 22, 4:28 pm, serg271 <serg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Crusaders are a lot of fun, though Merfolk is not an optimal choice
> IMO.
I obviously disagree here; Mf have decent enchantment skills, good
dogding and fighting, and the best aptitude for a single weapon out of
any race. IMO their only downside is low air magic skill which is
needed for two useful high-level enchantment spells, Silence and
Deflect Missles.
>Crusaders are strength-based chars, an Merfolk are not good with
> strength-based weapon - axes and maces.
Why? Polearms are dex-based, and glaives of speed are powerful and not
uncommon. Vorpal bardiches are great too. But anyhow I push Int over
other stats for Crusaders.
> Best crusaders IMO are
> demonspawns and draconians. Demonspawn was my the only victory, and I
> came pretty close with draconian.
I'm curious as to why you think these two are good crusaders. Not
disagreeing with you, but just interested in your reasoning.
With MfCr as long as I don't die early game I usually manage to clear
out Zot and often get some Hell/Pan runes. And Tomb is not that hard
once you have Silence and good HP. Admittedly I have many late game
deaths but they're usually something totally stupid and not related to
Merfolk at all ;)
> Some Crusader tips:
> Most important item for Crusader(and berserker) is the amulet of
> resist slowing. That amulet continue Haste state and remove after-
> berserk slowdown.
Highly useful but also dangerous for getting magic contamination.
Gourmand is also useful since casting haste all the time will make you
hungry ;)
> Good choice of god is Macleb. It became really handy with Greater
> Demon summon, and in case of summoning hostile demon just go berserk
> and dispatch it.
Agree 100% here, Greater Demon and HP/MP on kills are super useful. My
rule is "never summon greater demons when you can't afford to deal
with a hostile one." Which includes summoning a second demon to take
care of the first...e
g
serg271
Because berserker increase strength considerably, would be waste not
to use it. Anyway I'm ready reevaluate that statement. Will try
polearm merfolk crusader.
serg271
> On Oct 22, 4:04 pm, Jim_G <j...@jimgleaves.com> wrote:
> > Best crusaders IMO are
> > demonspawns and draconians. Demonspawn was my the only victory, and I
> > came pretty close with draconian.
>
> I'm curious as to why you think these two are good crusaders. Not
> disagreeing with you, but just interested in your reasoning.
Because of high strength (utilize berserker) and no penalty for axes.
>
> > Some Crusader tips:
> > Most important item for Crusader(and berserker) is the amulet of
> > resist slowing. That amulet continue Haste state and remove after-
> > berserk slowdown.
>
> Highly useful but also dangerous for getting magic contamination.
Berserker Haste doesn't cause contamination.Resist slowing prolong
*berserker* haste.
Jed Davis
> I have the feeling that paladin is purposely a 'hard' class to do in
> DCSS - The Shining One, the god of paladins, puts all kinds of
> restrictions on you in what you can do: not use any 'evil' weapons, not
> use poison in any form, not attack monsters that are caught in a trap or
> intelligent monsters that are fleeing, paralyzed etc .... just makes
> life a lot harder
Maybe not the strongest god in the early game.
On CAO/CDO, there have been 189 characters that got all fifteen types of
rune; of those, 37 were paladins. The next most common class is fighter
with 29, with a distant third place tied between necromancer and
wizard(!) at 11 each.
--
(let ((C call-with-current-continuation)) (apply (lambda (x y) (x y)) (map
((lambda (r) ((C C) (lambda (s) (r (lambda l (apply (s s) l)))))) (lambda
(f) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) C (lambda (k) (display (car l)) ((f (cdr l))
(C k))))))) '((#\J #\d #\D #\v #\s) (#\e #\space #\a #\i #\newline)))))
garron
> > I'm curious as to why you think these two are good crusaders. Not
> > disagreeing with you, but just interested in your reasoning.
>
> Because of high strength (utilize berserker) and no penalty for axes.
Good point. I guess I don't normally think about the strength boost
(!!) from berserk, but rather the speed and HP boost. But you're right
that the bonus strength is nothing to scoff at.
> Berserker Haste doesn't cause contamination.Resist slowing prolong
> *berserker* haste.
Berserker haste doesn't cause contamination, but I'm pretty sure the
amulet does! Not enough to worry about after one normal berserk, but
if you've already got some glow it might be trouble. With Trog berserk
& resist slowing, it's possible to get even really bad red glow, even
from starting with none, since Trog extends berserk as you kill stuff.
Jim_G
> On CAO/CDO, there have been 189 characters that got all fifteen types of
> rune; of those, 37 were paladins. The next most common class is fighter
> with 29, with a distant third place tied between necromancer and
> wizard(!) at 11 each.
This is an interesting fact, but as a beginning player it's hard for
me to interpret, especially given earlier statements in this thread
that paladins are perhaps "purposely a 'hard' class."
Does it mean that paladins have an easier time in the end-game but
are hard to start? Does it mean that experienced players do well with
them, but beginners should stay away?
Stefan O'Rear
Paladins have an easier time in the "extended endgame", the optional
challenge dungeons that only experienced players tend to go to. In
general these dungeons are primarily stocked with demons, and TSO
gives abilities very useful against demons.
-sorear
Stefan O'Rear
> On Oct 23, 12:39 am, serg271 <serg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I'm curious as to why you think these two are good crusaders. Not
>> > disagreeing with you, but just interested in your reasoning.
>>
>> Because of high strength (utilize berserker) and no penalty for axes.
>
> Good point. I guess I don't normally think about the strength boost
> (!!) from berserk, but rather the speed and HP boost. But you're right
> that the bonus strength is nothing to scoff at.
Actually it is; the effects of +5 Str in melee is neglible at best.
However being berserk also gives you +1d10 to all melee damage (compare
the .2 or so average you get from 5 str). So really it's the light fast
weapons that benefit from berserk, not the axes. HaCr etc work very well.
Erwin M.
> Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> writes:
>
>> I have the feeling that paladin is purposely a 'hard' class to do in
>> DCSS - The Shining One, the god of paladins, puts all kinds of
>> restrictions on you in what you can do: not use any 'evil' weapons, not
>> use poison in any form, not attack monsters that are caught in a trap or
>> intelligent monsters that are fleeing, paralyzed etc .... just makes
>> life a lot harder
>
> Maybe not the strongest god in the early game.
>
> On CAO/CDO, there have been 189 characters that got all fifteen types of
> rune; of those, 37 were paladins. The next most common class is fighter
> with 29, with a distant third place tied between necromancer and
> wizard(!) at 11 each.
>
This stat also doesn't account for changes in deity, which is a tactic
that most people skilled enough to pull off all-runers use at some
point. Most of my "paladin" runs lately have started life as Healers, to
get a head start on building Invocations. A lot of the Fighters in that
stat started with Okie to get some equipment acquirements and also some
practice with Invocations.
So, if anything, TSO is under-represented in the results if all you look
at is race/class. I do agree that until you get a radius 2 halo (beats
hunting for SInv when the unseen horrors show up), he tends to get in
the way more than be of help.
Erwin M.
Go to Swamp. Enter the water wielding a reasonably good trident.
Ozocubo's Armour. Freezing Brand. Berserk. Two-shot the eight-headed
hydra without breaking a sweat. I love MfCr!
The "strength-based" vs. "dex-based" weapon distinction is overrated
except at the extremes (Troll with Str 30 and Dex 8 wielding a quick
blade, for instance), in my observation.
Jim_G
Okay, here is the picture I am getting. Is this a fair summary?
There are two main paths for beginners which are relatively easy.
They are:
1) A melee character with high strength. This character wears heavy
armor, a shield, and mainly just hit things until they die.
2) A magic-based character with high intelligence and reasonable
dexterity. Light armor, no shield.
Not surprisingly, those are two of the three “easy” characters in the
current tutorial.
There are many other viable combinations such as stealth-based
characters, characters which fight with no weapons and transmute their
bodies, characters which have multiple “pets” fight for them, etc.
These are tricky for beginners since you have to juggle additional
game variables.
In this framework, Crusaders lose some melee power and defensive
capabilities, and gain access to a magic spells earlier on. The
possible problem is that the melee and defense they lose makes it
harder in the first new levels until their magic skills develop.
If I play a crusader I should probably have a dex-based weapon, plan
on light armor, and try to raise my evasion and resistance. If I
choose merfolk I should go with water and ice over fire.
Correct? I should mention that I just played a crusader to level 7
and so far he’s doing well. Now that I have an amulet of gourmand I
should be able to deal with the high hunger cost of magic.
Stefan O'Rear
>
> There are two main paths for beginners which are relatively easy.
> They are:
>
> 1) A melee character with high strength. This character wears heavy
> armor, a shield, and mainly just hit things until they die.
Yes. Of equal importance to the strength is that this character has
high weapon skill and generally very good aptitudes for melee.
> 2) A magic-based character with high intelligence and reasonable
> dexterity. Light armor, no shield.
Yes. Intelligence is big, a good book is big, Dexterity is useful
but secondary.
> Not surprisingly, those are two of the three “easy” characters in the
> current tutorial.
Yes.
> There are many other viable combinations such as stealth-based
> characters, characters which fight with no weapons and transmute their
> bodies, characters which have multiple “pets” fight for them, etc.
> These are tricky for beginners since you have to juggle additional
> game variables.
Yes.
> In this framework, Crusaders lose some melee power and defensive
> capabilities, and gain access to a magic spells earlier on. The
> possible problem is that the melee and defense they lose makes it
> harder in the first new levels until their magic skills develop.
Yes.
> If I play a crusader I should probably have a dex-based weapon, plan
> on light armor, and try to raise my evasion and resistance. If I
> choose merfolk I should go with water and ice over fire.
Yes.
> Correct? I should mention that I just played a crusader to level 7
> and so far he’s doing well. Now that I have an amulet of gourmand I
> should be able to deal with the high hunger cost of magic.
Yes. Also look for a staff of energy.
-sorear
serg271
> Okay, here is the picture I am getting. Is this a fair summary?
>
> There are two main paths for beginners which are relatively easy.
> They are:
>
> 1) A melee character with high strength. This character wears heavy
> armor, a shield, and mainly just hit things until they die.
> 2) A magic-based character with high intelligence and reasonable
> dexterity. Light armor, no shield.
>
or Transmuter are still more easy than pure high-int caster. The
problem is the low HP for caster make them vulnerable to 1-2 hit death
in the middle game. Playing pure caster in the middle of the game
require a lot of foresight (which I for example lack) and triple-
redundancy checks. Hybrid fighters have a lot of HP to rely on in the
case of mistake.
Öö Tiib
I disagree with your disagree. Pure conjurer or fire elementalist is
easier than hybrid. Classes like transmuter, earth elementalist and
reaver feel playable and interesting for experienced player but are
plain weak for beginner. Typical problem for beginners is how to
specialize enough to be able to kill most things they meet quickly and
weak ranged and failing escape spells in the midgame mean that they
are near that strong monster too long time. Typical mistake with
wizard or conjurer is to train up fighting or dodging early instead of
spellcasting and conjurations.
Jim_G
> Typical mistake with
> wizard or conjurer is to train up fighting or dodging early instead of
> spellcasting and conjurations.
I just learned that how many HP I get when I level is dependent on my
crusader's Fighting skill. I wish I knew how early is "too early" to
train up my Fighting. Given that my spells seems to have been coming
along nicely I will probably focus on fighting for the next few levels.
garron
Sorry, I meant to post a detailed "getting started with a crusader"
post but got a bit distracted last few days.
For me, with MfCr, I usually push spellcasting heavily the first 7
player levels, by which point I've memorized all the spells in the
starting book except Haste, and can cast them reliably. By level 10
I've gotten my Spellcasting skill up to 5, which lets me learn Haste
and cast it at "Fair". From there I mostly train skills just as I use
them, meaning fighting and polearms start to go up quickly and magic
less so, until such a time comes that I find a new spellbook with some
important spells that I'm not good enough to use yet. A bit later in
the game, you're either going to want to train your traps and doors
skill up to around 10, or learn the spell Detect Traps (which is much
easier but requires some luck).
Also,
> If I play a crusader I should probably have a dex-based weapon,
It's usually much more important to go with a weapon your race has an
aptitude for, rather than worrying about str/dex. For merfolk this
means polearms. The exceptions are some incredibly rare ego weapons
(such as battleaxe or bardiche of speed) or amazing artifacts where
it's probably worth using them regardless of your aptitude.
Öö Tiib
> > Typical mistake with
> > wizard or conjurer is to train up fighting or dodging early instead of
> > spellcasting and conjurations.
>
> I just learned that how many HP I get when I level is dependent on my
> crusader's Fighting skill.
You can gain the HP later just by improving Fighting later. It gives
very few points when early and low. Spellcasting gives MP and MP is in
big deficit with early failing and missing spells.
> I wish I knew how early is "too early" to
> train up my Fighting. Given that my spells seems to have been coming
> along nicely I will probably focus on fighting for the next few levels.
Typical "too early" is below character level 8 or so. Beginners lose
games in that frame unless they find great equipment or are lucky with
spawned monsters. Rage doubles crusaders HP speeds him up and adds
d10 to melee damage; no levels of early fighting/weapons can compete
with such effect. That is not immediately obvious to beginner so they
need crusader spoilers. With wizard, fire elementalist or conjurer the
picture is easier to put together for a beginner since these classes
can start to make direct damage with spells from turn 1.
Ed Cogburn
The only problem with this is whether that wizard or conjurer can ever find or
get any spells that help them kill/avoid those strong monsters, before their
luck runs out. Training up spellcasting/conjurations won't do you any good
without actual spells to use. And remember, the GGP referred to PC types for
a *beginning* player.
I agree with the GP that a hybrid PC *tends* to be better than even a pure
caster PC (at least one that does not start with a God), if only because your
PC's survivability depends less on finding hard-to-find stuff early on.
Weapons (most types) and armor (particularly heavy) are *far* more plentiful
than spellbooks are in the game, especially early.
The disadvantage of a hybrid is that you can't focus your exp points on just a
few skill slots as a 'simple' PC can, and you can't play it exactly like one
of the other types, because it will never be quite as good at fighting as a
'pure fighter' is, or at spellcasting as a 'pure caster' is.
IMO, for a beginning player, a pure fighter (using heavy armor) or a hybrid PC
type are better than a pure caster type. Play a good 'tank' for awhile until
you have a good idea of what your future casters are going to face deeper
down, since there is virtually no margin of error allowed while playing a pure
caster.
Mark Mackey
Jim_G <j...@jimgleaves.com> wrote:
>
>I just learned that how many HP I get when I level is dependent on my
>crusader's Fighting skill.
Hmm, you could read this two ways. This sounds like you believe that the
Fighting skill's benefits to hp depend on your Fighting skill when you
gain a level. It doesn't work like that.
The true situation is that your hp at any given point in time depends on
your level and your *current* Fighting skill, with no regard to the
history of when you raised your Fighting skill. So, the number of hp
you have at level 15, Fighting 15 will be roughly the same regardless of
whether you obsessively trained Fighting first at the expense of
everything else, or you turned it of for 14 character levels and then
went overboard with a Manual of Fighting.
In other words, there's no benefit to raising Fighting earlier rather
than later, except that if you raise it earlier you have more hp in the
interim :). Fighting will quite happily go up by itself if you hit
things: you don't need to train it specifically.
My advice to beginning Crawl players is to leave the skill settings
alone. You'll train the stuff you use: you won't perhaps get a
completely optimal skill set in the end game but you'll get a skill set
that's perfectly OK for winning, if you get that far :).
Getting confused, fiddling with the settings and training the wrong
skills at the wrong time seems to be a reasonably common mistake for the
uninitiated. Just leave the settings alone, concentrate on doing a few
things well (if you've been thwacking things with an axe for the last 17
levels, don't swap to a long sword, even if it's a *really nifty* long
sword. Stick to axes...), and you'll be fine.
--
Mark Mackey
The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
Hints, tips and spoilers
http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
David Ploog
> The true situation is that your hp at any given point in time depends on
> your level and your *current* Fighting skill, with no regard to the
> history of when you raised your Fighting skill. So, the number of hp
> you have at level 15, Fighting 15 will be _roughly_ the same regardless
> of whether you obsessively trained Fighting first at the expense of
> everything else, or you turned it of for 14 character levels and then
> went overboard with a Manual of Fighting.
If I understand correctly, all hp gains are non-random in trunk (and from
0.6 onwards). This means that the hp will be exactly the same.
> In other words, there's no benefit to raising Fighting earlier rather
> than later, except that if you raise it earlier you have more hp in the
> interim :). Fighting will quite happily go up by itself if you hit
> things: you don't need to train it specifically.
>
> My advice to beginning Crawl players is to leave the skill settings
> alone. You'll train the stuff you use: you won't perhaps get a
> completely optimal skill set in the end game but you'll get a skill set
> that's perfectly OK for winning, if you get that far :).
Thanks for explanation and good aiicve.
David
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
> On 2009-10-22, Jim_G <j...@jimgleaves.com> wrote:
>>
>>> An IRC channel is a perfectly good mode of discussion. �
>>
>> Well, I do not mean to besmirch IRC as a method of communication, but
>> I was unable to find any archives of this channel online. I'd much
>> rather read an existing discussion than ask basic newbie questions of
>> the experienced players. Most roguelike games I've played in the last
>> 10 years have one or more web forums like http://angband.oook.cz/forum/
>> .
>
> Personally I see that in Crawl's favor; web forums are a usability
> disaster and I find them extremely painful to read. Crawl is also a much
> more dynamic game than most others, and a lot of "common wisdom" is
> already obsolete, so archives are not all that useful.
>
> Also the ##crawl admin is very big keeping ##crawl a space where mistakes
> can be forgotten.
I can't tell if that's a compliment or not. :)
-r.
Martin Read
>The only problem with this is whether that wizard or conjurer can ever find or
>get any spells that help them kill/avoid those strong monsters, before their
>luck runs out. Training up spellcasting/conjurations won't do you any good
>without actual spells to use. And remember, the GGP referred to PC types for
>a *beginning* player.
In the early game, undead are mostly either slow enough to evade (most
early-game zombies), squashy enough to kill with Magic Dart, or prone
to removing themselves from your immediate vicinity. Not much else in
the early and early-mid game resists both cold and poison, and not much
in the early and early-mid game resists fire.
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
> In article <55584d31-8f25-4669...@d9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> Jim_G <j...@jimgleaves.com> wrote:
>>
>>I just learned that how many HP I get when I level is dependent on my
>>crusader's Fighting skill.
>
> Hmm, you could read this two ways. This sounds like you believe that the
> Fighting skill's benefits to hp depend on your Fighting skill when you
> gain a level. It doesn't work like that.
>
> The true situation is that your hp at any given point in time depends on
> your level and your *current* Fighting skill, with no regard to the
> history of when you raised your Fighting skill. So, the number of hp
> you have at level 15, Fighting 15 will be roughly the same regardless of
> whether you obsessively trained Fighting first at the expense of
> everything else, or you turned it of for 14 character levels and then
> went overboard with a Manual of Fighting.
>
> In other words, there's no benefit to raising Fighting earlier rather
> than later, except that if you raise it earlier you have more hp in the
> interim :). Fighting will quite happily go up by itself if you hit
> things: you don't need to train it specifically.
Personally, I find that benefit, combined with the rate at which Fighting
trains as compared to weapon skills, to be enough to make me turn off
weapon skill and leave fighting on in the middle game. Somehow Fighting
still never maxes out and my weapon skill does. (This advice, in addition
to being far from authoritative, is based primarily on 0.4 and 0.5;
I have not played the currently in development version at all.)
-r.
Erwin M.
> On 2009-10-26, Mark Mackey <ma...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> The true situation is that your hp at any given point in time depends on
>> your level and your *current* Fighting skill, with no regard to the
>> history of when you raised your Fighting skill. So, the number of hp
>> you have at level 15, Fighting 15 will be roughly the same regardless of
>> whether you obsessively trained Fighting first at the expense of
>> everything else, or you turned it of for 14 character levels and then
>> went overboard with a Manual of Fighting.
>>
>> In other words, there's no benefit to raising Fighting earlier rather
>> than later, except that if you raise it earlier you have more hp in the
>> interim :). Fighting will quite happily go up by itself if you hit
>> things: you don't need to train it specifically.
I've found that for combos that don't start with Fighting, it does help
to consciously get it to level 1, at least. Otherwise you tend to blow
your experience pool on your non-melee skills and don't have any left to
train Fighting when you do have to resort to hitting things. Same thing
with getting that first level of T&D if you don't start with it. I'll
sometimes leave glaringly-obvious secret doors undiscovered if I don't
have any points in the pool.
Spellcasting, too, for that matter. Unless I'm in trouble, I'll read-ID
scrolls only with points in the pool. Even with a Troglodyte. Learn Spc
early so that you're not wasting more points on it later thanks to being
of a higher experience level.
(Would it be too unbalancing to be able to turn off level-0 skills? The
answer is probably yes, as it would make life a lot easier for casters
for avoiding skill dilution.)
> Personally, I find that benefit, combined with the rate at which Fighting
> trains as compared to weapon skills, to be enough to make me turn off
> weapon skill and leave fighting on in the middle game. Somehow Fighting
> still never maxes out and my weapon skill does. (This advice, in addition
> to being far from authoritative, is based primarily on 0.4 and 0.5;
> I have not played the currently in development version at all.)
(Source dive.) Fighting only gets exercised 1/3 of the time when you
land an exercise-eligible blow. This would explain the difficulty in
building it faster than your weapon skill, even with the weapon skill
turned off. (Even though a turned-off skill is only exercised 1/4 of the
time.)
Jim_G
> Same thing
> with getting that first level of T&D if you don't start with it. I'll
> sometimes leave glaringly-obvious secret doors undiscovered if I don't
> have any points in the pool.
THAT is an interesting point, especially since my character is level 8
without a single level of T&D.
I must say, this has been a most insightful and useful discussion for
me as a new player.
Ed Cogburn
> Ed Cogburn <edwco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>The only problem with this is whether that wizard or conjurer can ever find
>>or get any spells that help them kill/avoid those strong monsters, before
>>their luck runs out. Training up spellcasting/conjurations won't do you any
>>good without actual spells to use. And remember, the GGP referred to PC
>>types for a *beginning* player.
>
> In the early game, undead are mostly either slow enough to evade (most
Well, the early undead aren't the ones who can kill a low HP char in 1-2 hits,
yes, but I don't think Jim was talking about undead only, AFAICT.
Its the heavy hitters, or the lucky orc warrior with an ego weapon, that you
have to be careful of. Problem is, an early caster may not have a sure-fire
way to avoid melee. Short of finding some early ?oTele, a caster will have a
couple of possible spells that may help, but aren't guaranteed to, especially
when caught in the open away from a stair, thats usually fatal. Lord only
knows how many times I've had blink put me right next to that same 2-headed
ogre (or one of his buddies) 2-3 times in a row...
> Not much else in the early and early-mid game resists both cold and poison,
> and not much in the early and early-mid game resists fire.
Right, but it all depends on how many ranged attacks you get before he closes
to melee range, how many friends he has with him, how far it is to nearest
stair (assuming you can get to it), and how much MP you have to spare for
offensive spells...
Ed Cogburn
> Personally, I find that benefit, combined with the rate at which Fighting
> trains as compared to weapon skills, to be enough to make me turn off
> weapon skill and leave fighting on in the middle game. Somehow Fighting
> still never maxes out and my weapon skill does. (This advice, in addition
> to being far from authoritative, is based primarily on 0.4 and 0.5;
> I have not played the currently in development version at all.)
The svn version is still about the same, weapon skill gains faster than
fighting skill, so I still turn the former off at start or soon after.
Martin Read
>Its the heavy hitters, or the lucky orc warrior with an ego weapon, that you
>have to be careful of.
Mephitic Cloud. Ogres never have ego armour; orc warriors very rarely
have armour of poison resistance.
Ed Cogburn
> Ed Cogburn <edwco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Its the heavy hitters, or the lucky orc warrior with an ego weapon, that you
>>have to be careful of.
>
> Mephitic Cloud. Ogres never have ego armour; orc warriors very rarely
> have armour of poison resistance.
Agreed, MC is a useful spell (area-effect,confusion,poison), but only if you
get to use it at extended range. It won't help you once the Ogre closes to
melee range.
In any event, poisoning (if it kills at all) can't kill your typical Ogre
faster than he can kill you with his club, *thats* the "problem". :)
A char that can't depend on heavy armor and a powerful weapon, effectively
can't melee, so must depend on killing quickly at extended range...
Peter Huebner
edwco...@gmail.com says...
>
> Martin Read wrote:
>
> > Ed Cogburn <edwco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>Its the heavy hitters, or the lucky orc warrior with an ego weapon, that you
> >>have to be careful of.
> >
> > Mephitic Cloud. Ogres never have ego armour; orc warriors very rarely
> > have armour of poison resistance.
>
> Agreed, MC is a useful spell (area-effect,confusion,poison), but only if you
> get to use it at extended range. It won't help you once the Ogre closes to
> melee range.
>
> In any event, poisoning (if it kills at all) can't kill your typical Ogre
> faster than he can kill you with his club, *thats* the "problem". :)
Er - cast the mephitic cloud on the floor one space to the side and
behind yer ogre that's closed to melee distance and he'll be just as
confuddled. In some situations the pathing of the spell will then
include the space that the ogre is on, it may take a wee bit of
experimenting or even maneuvering. Also works on orc priests, warriors &
knights, (not so good on warlords) and fire drakes b.t.w. Generally,
given the opportunity, I like to cast/place mephitic cloud in a way that
orc knights and lords have to take at least two turns in the cloud, all
the better to beat their chance of shrugging it off.
Blowpipes are the way if you want to kill an ogre with poison. Get it
double strength poisoned with needles and then go pillar dancing,
occasionally reinforcing the poison as needed. Ogres are sufficiently
slow to allow this (so long as you're not playing a MD, they seem
equally slow, I s'ppose it's the short legs). :-P
-P.