[Announce] H-World 0.3.11.0
Hansjoerg Malthaner
I'm afraid this release is again a step away from roguelikeness ...
H-World got new mouse controls. Yet the old key controls exist, so don't
worry :) Also there are a few improvements and bug fixes, so maybe this
release is interesting for the keyboard users, too :)
Original Announcement + Downloads:
http://www.simugraph.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=11&t_id=27
Release notes for H-World 0.3.11.0
==================================
A warning ahead: in this release I've changed quite a lot of interfaces
(calling Lua scripts), internals (reference counting, GC) and input
(mouse control). It's likely that some things that formerly worked went
broke. I've tried my best to test this release and I think it works
fine. Please let me know if you discover problems. I did all my tests on
Linux.
New features
------------
Some people seem to have troubles with H-Worlds mostly keyboard
controlled UI. To help them, I've added mouse controls to H-World
0.3.11.0:
- walk to a spot: click spot, PC will walk
- attack a being: click it, PC will walk and attack
- acticate a dungeon feature (e.g. stairs): click it, PC will walk and
activate it
Also all commands that ask for a direction (e.g. open, inspect, trade
...) now accept mouse clicks on adjacent squares.
Furthermore the usage panel (lower part ofthe screen) can now be
controlled with the mouse.
The new mouse controls turned out to be very convenient and easy to use.
There are some nice highliting features, e.g. if the mouse points to
items or activatable dungeon features.
I wanted to add tooltips telling the item name if the mouse points to
the item, but I ran out of time. So that has to wait for the next release.
The former key controls still exist.
Improvements
------------
- Containers (e.g. backpack) hinderance is now calculated from
base hindernance plus content weights (1 point of hinderance
for each 1000 grams of weight).
- Cleaned up some Lua scripts (thanks to Jeff Lait who reviewed
them!)
- Room templates can be flipped horizontally and vertically to
offer more variety
Fixed problems
--------------
- Selected usages and attacks are now saved and loaded properly.
- Naga bodywear constraints now properly set to "jacket" and "torso
plate" item types.
- Traders now should always offer trade if a PC steps near.
- Cursed items dropped by monsters are no longer known to
be cursed if picked up by the player
Downloads
---------
Windows version (~1050KB):
http://h-world.simugraph.com/data/h_world_demo-0_3_11_0.zip
Linux version (~910KB):
http://h-world.simugraph.com/data/h_world_demo-0_3_11_0.tar.gz
Chronological list of changes since the last release
----------------------------------------------------
10-Oct-04: NEW: usage panel now supports selecting attacks and usages
by mouse
NEW: usage panel now supports using items by right-clicking
an item
NEW: items and features are now drawn lit if pinted at with
the mouse
CHANGE: trade and inspect commands now give hints what
the keypress has activated
09-Oct-04: NEW: mouse control support for walking, picking things up
and activating dungeon features
NEW: commands that ask for a direction now also accept
clicking a nearby square with the mouse
CHANGE: base_wield/base_unwield now have a "on_" prefix
CHANGE: if an item has an inventory, the player is now
told: "It might contain something."
08-Oct-04: CHANGE: Lua hooks now have a "on_" prefix
CHANGE: Lua usages can now define verb and function name
independantly
CHANGE: convention: usage functions now have a "use_" prefix
06-Oct-04: CHANGE: cleaned up recipes Lua script
03-Oct-04: NEW: containers weight and hinderance is now calculated
from base weight and hinderance plus the contents
-> only works correctly for new games because the
old containers data does not include base_weigth and
base_bulk
NEW: new item: wooden bucket
02-Oct-04: NEW: level templates can now be programmatically switched
in horizontal and vertical direction
NEW: mini map now displays non blocking features in dark grey
and movement blocking features in black
26-Sep-04: CHANGE: sped up level creation (partitioning/area floodfill)
25-Sep-04: FIX: cursed items dropped by monsters are no longer known to
be cursed by the player
NEW: item/monster commonness supported by thing_factory
NEW: selected item/usage and selected attack are now saved
and restored properly
FIX: Naga body equipment constraints set to jacket and
torso plate
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Hansjoerg Malthaner <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote in message news:<2svbsrF...@uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>- Room templates can be flipped horizontally and vertically to
>> offer more variety
>
> You are still missing one symmetry here. You should allow the rooms
> to be rotated 90 degrees. That will then give 2^3 possible
> configurations, matching the number of orthogonal orientations you
> could do.
Right. Currently I'm having a problem that flipping a room screws up
some of the doorposts. There are left and right posts, and flipping the
room horizontally results in doors having the right post at the left
side and the left post at the right side.
It works, but it looks wrong.
It seems I have to tell the door creator objects about the
transformations of the room coordinates - luckily I have matrices and
vectors and the proper operators for them already :)
After that I'll add rotations :)
c.u.
Hajo
ABCGi
TEST: ver 0.3.11.0 10Oct2004 - The Jungle (Win XP dual monitor)
Windows version works fine on XP.
* Mouse bug when interacting with traders, the trader menu is invisible
and need to click all over screen to find it.
I like the persistent village, and the mouse selection of attacks and
use is much more obvious. Moving around with the mouse is ok, since you
tend to use the mouse for inventory anyway.
* The small tiger bug *becomes* aware of you and wakes up. (rather than
*gets*) - but nice touch with the sleeping monsters.
* Right mouse button does exact same as left mouse button? Waste of
useful button for use/attack/throw? Mouse response is a little fast,
sometimes I move to places I don't intend... once release mouse stop
moving toward point?
* Mouse clicks on other screens like help, move the person on screen!
* Should left click automatically attack peaceful people, perhaps only
right click should? Guy who wanted to talk to me ran away from me!99
* Map does not work in garden. Map leaves artifacts over background area
upon moving it around. Artifacts are removed when map is closed and
reopened. Map appears to be being drawn in artifact section.
* I'm still alive on zero hit points :)
* Mule does not return for new game after death of mule in previous game.
All the areas seem to load ok, load/save works ok, no major show stopper
bugs so far...
--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> "Hansjoerg Malthaner" <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> schrieb im
> Newsbeitrag news:2t4qj6F...@uni-berlin.de...
> [snip]
>
>>It isn't a game. Its a CRPG engine. It also isn't meant to be a game.
>>"The Jungle" is only a demo module to demonstrate some of the engine
>>features.
>
> Oh, I see. In this case my criticism was pointless of course. I was still
> thinking you're trying to make a game! Can't really judge H-World as an
> engine. However there are a lot of CRPG engines outthere and some of them
> are quite mature so you have to face quite some competition.
Yes. Sometimes I think this project is a waste of time. But it's also
kind of fun.
Your first message wasn't so wrong either. The website still says I want
to make an engine _and_ a game, but now the "game" part failed twice and
I lost confidence that I can get it right at all. If I try again, I'll
surely consider your advice. But I'm afraid I'll create patchwork like
"The Jungle" again because I change my mind too often ...
You're also right that I often add feature because of the coolness. But
that's usually the fun part. Try it and see if it works. Of course this
doesn't help "The Jungle" module at all it becomes even more patchwork
because all those features are in there just for testing purposes and
notr becuase the module needs them.
Currently I got contact to someone who is making a commercial CRPG
engine. It's a strange experience. In some areas H-World is more
powerful, but I've had to learn that all the things that would make it
interesting to end-users are missing.
I've learned a thing. He said "You are programming for programmers".
That's right: users of the H-World engine have to be programers to some
extend. But programmers program by themselves and only few of them use
other peoples pre-made programs and customize them.
E.g. if I'd try to convince you to make tower of doom using H-World.
Probably you'd not - it doesn't fit 100%, you'll have to learn the API
and finally you can do it by yourself.
So the potential user group is rather small.
> H-World requires programmering experience I think. And probably neither
> Bioware nor Troika will use it for their next RPG.
I think so, too. Although if I could, I'd make Arcanum II with the
H-World engine.
I've once tried to create a city for H-World, a bit like Tarant in
Arcanum. Creating such a city will require weeks. Creating all the
quests will require more weeks.
I found that most quest in Arkanum are fairly classic plot, yet when I
tried to make my city, I just couldn't create the inhabitants because I
had no ideas whom they should be and what stories could be there.
Oh well. Somehow I admire your projects. You can create games. I've once
critisized your code, but I had to learn that code quality and
interesting game are not neccesarily linked. You did the right choices
obviously.
> So hobby coders are the
> only "target group". And almost all of these people prefer to write
> everything from scratch. I don't think there's a "market" for "CRPG engines"
> like H-World, sorry.
That's it. I guess there are only two options
- make it a point-and-click RPG creation tool
- make a good game with it
I'm not sure if I'd like the first option. I've failed trying the second
option.
It seems I must accept the fact that this project won't be terribly
popular and that I'll continue it just for the fun that I have while
creating it.
Thank you for your messages. I know you want to help. You're right that
I'm bad dealing with such messages. I think I'll be able to use some of
your suggestions.
> copx
c.u.
Hajo
SZDev - Slash
news:ckjecu$d6u$05$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> "Hansjoerg Malthaner" <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> schrieb im
> Newsbeitrag news:2t4qj6F...@uni-berlin.de...
> [snip]
> > It isn't a game. Its a CRPG engine. It also isn't meant to be a game.
> > "The Jungle" is only a demo module to demonstrate some of the engine
> > features.
>
> Oh, I see. In this case my criticism was pointless of course. I was still
> thinking you're trying to make a game! Can't really judge H-World as an
> engine. However there are a lot of CRPG engines outthere and some of them
> real popular "RPG engine" I know is the godless "RPGMaker" that allows
> 12year olds to create really crappy Final Fantasy clones without
programming
> experience.
> H-World requires programmering experience I think. And probably neither
> only "target group". And almost all of these people prefer to write
> everything from scratch. I don't think there's a "market" for "CRPG
engines"
> like H-World, sorry.
I am myself following an approach similar to Hajo's,
I dont think the market for HWorld is soo closed; if I wanted to make a
graphical CRPG I would seriously think on using it; there are some hobby
coders that want to create a game but don't have time/energies/will to
start from scratch, as evidenced by the Angband variants... off course
H.World is different from the variants.... but I couldn't find a better
example...
And ABCGI was developing a module for H.World, as well as some other dude I
forgot his name...
My approach is a bit different, as I only suggest a development model,
insted of providing a full working graphical engine to work on through
scripts.
>
> copx
>
>
--
SZDev - Slash
Slashing, the Outcast Dragon of the -={UDIC}=-
Weblog: http://www.livejournal.com/users/szdev
Website: http://szdev.cjb.net
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Dnia Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:17:41 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner napisal(a):
>
>>ABCGi wrote::
>>
>>>Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>>
>>I agree. Currently using objects on the map won't work. You can only use
>>object that your hold/wear or that are stored in the inventory.
>>
>>Once it's possible to use objects on the map, I'll add a choice box to
>>select usages upon a right-click.
>
> I think that such a menu should point to macros that will move the
> player to given spot, make him pick the item up and then quaff.
> This seems the most intuitive for me...
I'll try that. This solutions doesn't add new special cases. Thank you
for this suggestion.
I'll try to implement that in the next major release. But before that I
want to build a bugfix release for the mouse-click problems that ABCGi
reported.
c.u.
Hajo
SZDev - Slash
mensaje news:2t4v1mF...@uni-berlin.de...
Hey Hajo! I think you are wrong... you must not give up in the creation of a
game... I dont know your history, but one commonly starts developing an
engine having a future game in mind...
Furthermore, you develop your engine having in mind the DIFFERENT games YOU
can develop using it!
I developed Wing with two things in mind; Guardian Angel and Ultima: Return
to Mt. Drash...
Also, I kept the doors open to anybody who wants to use it; yep, Wing is an
API, and you can do it yourself without using it, but it offer some help to
control the Actors in the world, and it gives you access to a family of User
Interfaces and System Interfaces which may come in handy to the
developer....
And if you think it's worthless to use it, then dont use it! I know of
someone that will use it, and will have lots of fun with it, and that person
is ME ;D
>
> Currently I got contact to someone who is making a commercial CRPG
> engine. It's a strange experience. In some areas H-World is more
> powerful, but I've had to learn that all the things that would make it
> interesting to end-users are missing.
>
> I've learned a thing. He said "You are programming for programmers".
> That's right: users of the H-World engine have to be programers to some
> extend. But programmers program by themselves and only few of them use
> other peoples pre-made programs and customize them.
>
> E.g. if I'd try to convince you to make tower of doom using H-World.
> Probably you'd not - it doesn't fit 100%, you'll have to learn the API
> and finally you can do it by yourself.
>
> So the potential user group is rather small.
It certainly is, but the most important potential user must be YOU :D
that way, you ensure that someone will use it, and will make full use of
it...
>
> > H-World requires programmering experience I think. And probably neither
> > Bioware nor Troika will use it for their next RPG.
>
> I think so, too. Although if I could, I'd make Arcanum II with the
> H-World engine.
>
> I've once tried to create a city for H-World, a bit like Tarant in
> Arcanum. Creating such a city will require weeks. Creating all the
> quests will require more weeks.
>
> I found that most quest in Arkanum are fairly classic plot, yet when I
> tried to make my city, I just couldn't create the inhabitants because I
> had no ideas whom they should be and what stories could be there.
>
> Oh well. Somehow I admire your projects. You can create games. I've once
> critisized your code, but I had to learn that code quality and
> interesting game are not neccesarily linked. You did the right choices
> obviously.
Oh common... you can create games too... just dedicate some hours to writing
in a word processor and you will have a plot, yeah it may not be the best
one, but its your plot, and based on it you can write your game... code
quality and interesting game are not linked, but having a stable frame to
paint your game into is very useful...
>
> > So hobby coders are the
> > only "target group". And almost all of these people prefer to write
> > everything from scratch. I don't think there's a "market" for "CRPG
engines"
> > like H-World, sorry.
>
> That's it. I guess there are only two options
>
> - make it a point-and-click RPG creation tool
> - make a good game with it
>
> I'm not sure if I'd like the first option. I've failed trying the second
> option.
Make a good game with it! you can do it!
>
> It seems I must accept the fact that this project won't be terribly
> popular and that I'll continue it just for the fun that I have while
> creating it.
>
> Thank you for your messages. I know you want to help. You're right that
> I'm bad dealing with such messages. I think I'll be able to use some of
> your suggestions.
>
> > copx
>
> c.u.
> Hajo
--
R. Alan Monroe
>> H-World requires programmering experience I think. And probably neither
>> Bioware nor Troika will use it for their next RPG.
>
>I think so, too. Although if I could, I'd make Arcanum II with the
>H-World engine.
>I've once tried to create a city for H-World, a bit like Tarant in
>Arcanum. Creating such a city will require weeks. Creating all the
>quests will require more weeks.
Instead of making some giant world or city, you could experiment with
very small but complex environments, like a murder mystery in a house
with just a few rooms. Or one of those games like the flash games you
find on the internet where you're locked in a room and have to find
the clues to get out.
Alan
Pfhoenix
> The game is still effectively in a beta stage since you keep adding new
> functionality, which is good because there are still some more things it
> needs.
If he's still adding features, that makes the "game" alpha, not beta. Beta
stage is when all features are in and bug fixes and gameplay tweaking are
the large majority of effort.
--
- Pfhoenix
http://pfhoenix.com/adeo
copx
[snip]
> I mean I don't want to do this:put an NPC right in front of the players
> starting position and let him ask "please kill the skeleton capain on
> castle cellar level 3!"
>
> IMO that's outright silly, but then players have quest right from the
> start, which is obviously what they want?
Really, everyone can create a standard CRPG plot. I'll do it for you.
Ok, you already have:
- "a skeleton captain"
- "a castle"
- "villiage people".
I immediately see a plot:
The player is a wandering adventurer. He has just arrived in a new villiage.
(tell this the user as part of the intro!)
The villiage elder has come to greet him.
During the Player <-> Villiage Elder dialog the player is told that
the villiage is terrorized by a necromancer who hates all life. He lives
in a dark rotten castle in the north. Of course the player character
will offer to slay the evil guy (all CRPG heroes do!).
There's your plot!
Additional game design help.
- create tight borders for the game world so that the player won't get
lost. So that if he walks into the wrong direction he will quickly
reach the "end of the world".
- the player should encounter a few easy enemies (your tiger bugs will do
the trick)
while he walks north through the wilderness to reach the castle.
- the castle should be a standard dungeon crawl with the necromancer at the
top or bottom.
And additional idea I just had: to make the plot more "mature" you could
mention
the reason why the necromancer hates life: maybe he was born in the villiage
but
suffered badly there... Maybe he was an social outcast (birth defects?
homosexuality? think about it!)
who eventuelly left the villiage (or was expelled) and is now out for
revenge .
As an outcast he probably did spend all his time alone, much time for
studies and "experiements".
Maybe he once was a student of the villiage shaman. You can add this info to
explain how he became an
necromancer.
Another idea: make the necro female. Female arch-villians are less standard
than male ones (aka not so boring).
That should be enough to get you started.
copx
The Sheep
> copx wrote::
>> "Hansjoerg Malthaner" <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> schrieb im
>> Newsbeitrag news:2t4qj6F...@uni-berlin.de...
> That's it. I guess there are only two options
> - make it a point-and-click RPG creation tool
It doesn't have to be such a bad idea, you know.
You could make a script-wizard, that would make the most basic scripts by
asking the user about options and features and then gluing together some
premade script parts (or maybe just uncommenting some code), a graphical
editor, that would allow to import (or copy and paste) graphics, set their
offsets, special colours, etc. and try if it fits with other graphics in
the game, a map editor for premade maps, and some item and creature
wizards, again allowing you to compose things from premade blocks.
Then, the generted code should be tidy and commented, so that the user
can easily change or add things by hand.
> - make a good game with it
The game doesn't even have to be `good', I think, but it have to be
`generic', so that a potential user will look at it and say -- hey! it's
very similar to what I want to do, and I don't even have to change much!
I think that the parts of the game that require the most work should
be available in their `generic' form, ready to use, so that the user
can have his game `up and running' very fast, and then can focus on
tweaking things he wants to change. Balancing is not very important,
since any feature he adds/changes is likely to unbalance the game again.
Amongst the things that should be available in it's `generic' forms
there should be a set of graphics (probably several sets -- medieval,
modern, futuristic), a set of scripts for the basic mechanics (again
maybe several of them, with obligatory AD&D-like mechanics), several
dozens of sample, but generic creatures and items.
> I'm not sure if I'd like the first option. I've failed trying the second
> option.
I don't think it's such a failure.
Personally, I'd hapilly use you engine for my own game, if I only managed
to turn the isometric view off and there would be a `simplistic' sample
module, not the one to take code examples from, but one to add them to.
You know, a base, just walking around a desert, kicking snakes and picking
up stones. Or something even simplier.
--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski
You only need pen and paper to do philosophy.
To do mathematics you need pen, paper and a trash can.
The Sheep
> R. Dan Henry wrote::
>> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:55:41 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner
>> <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>>>It isn't a game. Its a CRPG engine. It also isn't meant to be a game.
>>>"The Jungle" is only a demo module to demonstrate some of the engine
>>>features.
>> "engine". If a *game* is popular, people may then want to do something
>> with its engine and make variants.
> So I have a serious problem.
>
> Pfhoenix said, I should take a word-procesor and write a plot. I've
> tried to write agme design doc for the space exploration game. Some
> people read it and I got some feedback - strangely I still get feedback
> although nothing happened ther since a year.
>
> But writing the document didn't help. I can't create what I've written
> about.
>
> I'm not sure if writing another document would help. Probaly I'd
> describe an intersting game again, and then find out that I can't do it.
How about this:
If you can't make up a good game, take an old good game and make a clone
using your engine.
For example, as it's a group about roguelikes, make a clone or rogue.
Only with isometric graphics and mouse control.
This should attract some attention from people who played and liked
rogue, and from those who never saw rogue but have read about it in
the history of roguelike games and are curious how it was like, but
cannot compile the old sources by themselves and doesn't feel like
learning the keys, etc.
playtosor
> [snip]
>
> Sorry, the graphics of "The Jungle" are amateurish crap.
> You'll impress no-one with them. People will think your
> engine is just as crappy as the graphics.
> [snip]
Now this is complete and utter non-sense.
The Jungle's graphics can be improved (they always can) but they do the
job quite well.
As for the engine it will eventually find it's audience : no sane
programmer will start a game without using some external librairies. And a
ready, portable and flexible engine that allows to write our own code can
be a very good choice.
However, I agree with most other posters "The Jungle" needs some work.
--
www.playtosor.net : une simulation d'entreprise pas comme les autres
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Does H-World support popping
> up multiple windows?
Yes.
This questions tells you didn't try it, even the birth screen has two
windows.
> Adeo pops up windows when you read books, access a
> computer terminal, dig into inventory or another container, or hack stuff.
Very similar in H-World. Except that you can't hack stuff and the only
computer terminal are the space ship controls in the "space exploration
game" that I once tried to make.
Windows:
- inventory
- trade
- container
- mini map
- dialogs
- help
- item selection/multiple choic questions
> I'm at the point where I've fixed the bugs I've identified (as the result of
> converting to the mouse interface), and I want to start working on
> spaceship/space map + generation mechanics.
Good look :)
c.u.
Hajo
playtosor
>
> "playtosor" <retiremoiplayt...@free.fr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:opsfu71ih2z8jyt3@nicolas...
>>
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> > Sorry, the graphics of "The Jungle" are amateurish crap.
>> > You'll impress no-one with them. People will think your
>> > engine is just as crappy as the graphics.
>> > [snip]
>>
>> Now this is complete and utter non-sense.
>
> No, it's not. Most people will judge the book by it's cover
> believe me.
>
> A good impressive demo game is required.
>
> copx
>
>
Of course, I was talking about your "amateurish crap" statement.
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> "Erik Järlemyr" <ar...@df.lth.se> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:Jwxbd.106154$dP1.3...@newsc.telia.net...
> [snip advice on constructive criticism]
>
> Of course you're right.
> The form of delivery wasn't exactly optimal
> form a psychological point of view.
Good. Next time please consider this before you write and hurt other
peoples feelings.
> copx
c.u.
Hajo
Ray Dillinger
> So I have a serious problem.
>
>
> I think I'll rearrange stuff from "The Jungle" module and try to create
> a simple game. I'll try to gove the players a quest right from the
> start, although I have no idea what that could be.
>
> I mean I don't want to do this:put an NPC right in front of the players
> starting position and let him ask "please kill the skeleton capain on
> castle cellar level 3!"
>
> IMO that's outright silly, but then players have quest right from the
> start, which is obviously what they want?
Your problem isn't that players don't have a quest; your problem is that
players don't know what to do.
So, have the player attacked by skeletons on turn 1. He'll know what
to do (fight!)
When the skeletons are gone, send more skeletons once in a while. Make
them chase the player, and ignore the other villagers.
Your quest: figure out why the skeleton captain wants you personally
killed, and stop him from killing you.
Bear
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Meanwhile, the open source nature of Angband has led to
> variants, while HWorld remains closed source, which means you are
> limited to what Hajo provides. You can request additional features,
> but cannot add them yourself.
Well, the Lua scripting support should allow to add quite a lot of
features. The scripts are all available in source code.
Actually currently the amount of closed C++ code is shrinking because
more and more features are moved into Lua scripts. Even the new AI is
available as Lua scripts.
> R. Dan Henry
> danh...@inreach.com
c.u.
Hajo
copx
[snip]
Good graphics aren't a matter of taste.
Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Arcanum, Diablo, etc. all of them have good
graphics.
H-World doesn't.
See here:
http://h-world.simugraph.com/images/wilderness_036.png
I would draw characters like that (and I'm a VERY bad painter)!
They look like 2D paper cuts fresh out of a primary school class, sorry.
Really making an Iso-engine and then using character graphics like
this is not even funny. Your character models aren't even really isometric!
Of course you can never compete against the big software houses but
what about this:
http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/images/geneforge2/townentry.jpg
Spiderweb is a one-man shop IIRC. The graphics are worse but they
are still ok and ISOMETRIC!
As I said before. Amateurish 2D tiles are ok but amateurish iso-graphics
just look terrible. Don't expect most users of your engine to be able to
create these kinds of graphics, either BTW.
IMO switch to plain 2D tiles or forget it
(I know that most people are pissed off if someone talks bad about
something in which they have infested countless hours of hard work
but it doesn't help anybody if I don't say what I think.)
copx
The Sheep
>
> "Hansjoerg Malthaner" <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> schrieb im
> Newsbeitrag news:2t7dq7F...@uni-berlin.de...
> [snip]
>
> Good graphics aren't a matter of taste.
> Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Arcanum, Diablo, etc. all of them have good
> graphics.
> H-World doesn't.
>
> See here:
> http://h-world.simugraph.com/images/wilderness_036.png
>
> I would draw characters like that (and I'm a VERY bad painter)!
> They look like 2D paper cuts fresh out of a primary school class, sorry.
> Really making an Iso-engine and then using character graphics like
> this is not even funny. Your character models aren't even really isometric!
>
> Of course you can never compete against the big software houses but
> what about this:
> http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/images/geneforge2/townentry.jpg
> Spiderweb is a one-man shop IIRC. The graphics are worse but they
> are still ok and ISOMETRIC!
It's rendered graphics. And much higher resolution too.
And the pieces you're complaining about already have their replacements.
Maybe not much nicer, but you could take a look:
http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/hworld/
The problem is that they require almost new graphics for each and every
item, and that's not finished. (note: some of graphics on this page
is autdated too).
Gerry Quinn
hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de says...
> I think I'll rearrange stuff from "The Jungle" module and try to create
> a simple game. I'll try to gove the players a quest right from the
> start, although I have no idea what that could be.
>
> I mean I don't want to do this:put an NPC right in front of the players
> starting position and let him ask "please kill the skeleton capain on
> castle cellar level 3!"
>
> IMO that's outright silly, but then players have quest right from the
> start, which is obviously what they want?
Just make up a storyline. Your hero was attacked by skeletons and all
his stuff taken. He crawls into a village where he learns that the
castle of skeletons oppresses all the villagers. They can tell him who
to kill to get his stuff and maybe some rewards. They'll even give him
a few weapons and stuff if he promises to taked the job on.
He's free to wander off with the stuff he gets, but at least he has been
given a hint. You could have an alternative quest where if he walks off
with the weapons the villagers turn hostile.
- Gerry Quinn
David Damerell
>First off, good constructive criticism has three layers. My professor made
>an analogy with the sandwiches served at the British Railways (I heard that
>they have improved them since the comparison was first made,
Not really. Before privatisation they were _cheap_ and nasty.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Björn Bergström
> The Sheep wrote::
>
>> Dnia Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:20:33 +0200, Björn Bergström napisal(a):
>>
>>> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Sheep wrote::
>>
>>
>>> visualisation to the player's imagination. I can also admit that I'm
>>> a big fan of the graphics in many of Nintendo's games, like Zelda,
>>> Pokémon and othjer Nintendo CRPGs. If "The Jungle" used graphics like:
>>>
>>> http://www.dragon-warrior.com/Images/Tile_Sets.shtml
>>> or
>>> http://www.geocities.com/mclelun/rpg.html
>>>
>>> I would be trying it out much more often (I'm sure a lot of people
>>> think this kind of graphics is too retro or boring or whatever, but I
>>> don't care). :-)
>>
>>
>> That's exactly the kind of graphics I'm most familiar with and I'd
>> most happily make ^^)))
>
>
> I'm following this with mixed emotions.
>
> I admit that I neither can provide "industry standard" (like Björn
> demands) nor professional (like Copx asks) graphics.
>
> But I'm surprised that the images are rejected so strongly: "amateurish
> crap" (Copx). Some are bad, that's true, but some are IMO very good. IMO
> definitely better than what a lot of amateurs produce.
>
> I'm a bit surprised of the judgement - I mean you don't say _some_ of
> the images need to be improved but that they are _alltogether_ much too
> bad.
First of all, I do not agree that all images are "amateurish crap". Some
examples of what I like/dislike:
Furniture
Good. Although they do not "blend in" as much as I'd like
Chests
Good
Trees, shrubs, grass
Good. I'd like more variation though. Several different trees and shrubs
Dungeonwalls
Good. Although I would prefer if they were higher and made
semitransparent if the block the player or objects lying on the ground
Player and villagers
Not good. Modeling/drawing humans is really hard.
Tigerbugs
Medium. Could use a bit more work though
Mule
Medium. Could use a bit more work though
Jackals
Good/Medium
Skeleton
Not good.
Rock lizard
Medium. Hard to distinguish. Doesn't look dangerous.
> Maybe this is "a matter of taste"? In regards to Björns suggestion: I
> think the mentioned tilesets are definitely worse than most of H-Worlds
> images. It's childish style. Disproportionate, outlined, flat colored
> crap. (Copx said crap, too, so I feel free to use that word here).
Your most welcome to use that word :-) Some people like the "super
deformed" style, some don't. Remember though, that Nintendo made (and
are still making) millions out of games based on that kind of style.
> I'll never make such images. I'll not even try.
>
> So, if you say the images are bad - do you really mean low quality or do
> you rather mean "I don't like that style"? If it's low quality I can
> try to improve them. I know some are bad, and some don't fit together
> very well. But if it's the wrong style, we just have a different taste
> then.
We do not have different taste. I loved playing Baldurs Gate and Fallout
(ofcourse not only based on graphics, but still). As I mentioned above
not all of your graphics are bad. It is mostly humanoids that I do not
like that much. And as you said, some of the graphics doesn't fit
together very well.
> I'll also not try to make an ASCII game. There are too many, even good
> ones, I don't think the world needs another one.
Good choice. I think you should stick with graphics, it will attract a
broader audience.
> Well. My current impression: I've created something that is liked by
> few, respected by some, and disregarded by many. It's somewhat sad, but
> probably ok. It definitely measn I need to reconsider how important
> H-World is for me.
>
> I've also understood: creating an engine is a bad idea if I want a lot
> of feedback, because there are to few potential users. People judge by
> first impression, so it's important to improve the demo game module,
> because this is what people see first.
I think you should go with something that most people recognise and feel
familiar with, ie traditional fantasy or sci-fi. This may sound boring,
and I think "The Jungle" is a bold attempt at breaking the mold, but I
also believe that by doing a game module with a setting that a lot of
people recignise and feel familiar with you will get more players/mod
makers.
[snip infinity engine vs h-world]
>
> c.u.
> Hajo
I hope you will continue working on H-World despite this discussion.
It's hard to take critisism and I hope you do not take this personally.
Best regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Hansjoerg Malthaner
==================================
Bugfixes and changes
--------------------
FIX: clicking into the trade window no longer moves the PC
FIX: clicking into a help window no longer moves the PC
FIX: PC no longer can move through monsters in a corridorby clicking
behind them
FIX: minimap resizes properly if changing to a bigger/smaller level
FIX: wording fixed: "gets aware" -> "becomes aware"
CHANGE: PC stops moving after opening a door
Downloads
---------
Windows version (~1050KB):
http://h-world.simugraph.com/data/h_world_demo-0_3_11_1.zip
Linux version (~910KB):
http://h-world.simugraph.com/data/h_world_demo-0_3_11_1.tar.gz
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Dnia Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:35:59 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner napisal(a):
> Another thing is lack of good graphics in window decorations, main
> screen, etc. I think that a well designed `skin' would really improve
> the looks.
I agree fully. A better skin is seriously needed. Particualrly the
borders of the inventory areas need improvement.
I've tried several variants, but all seemed worse than the current. Yet,
I think this really needs a change.
> I know it's a low priority, and a nice bit of work, but it really has
> large impact on the looks (good painting looks bad in bad frames).
Yes. A good skin can lift an application to a whole new level.
>>Maybe this is "a matter of taste"? In regards to Björns suggestion: I
>>think the mentioned tilesets are definitely worse than most of H-Worlds
>>images. It's childish style. Disproportionate, outlined, flat colored
>>crap. (Copx said crap, too, so I feel free to use that word here).
>
> They are that way, and that's the beauty of them. The `cartoony' look has
> a very long tradition in computer games. Do you think that settlers had
> bad graphics, for example?
Settlers II is ok, I think. I still like the look.
> And your simutrans?
The bad graphics of Simutrans were a constant complaint of the players
for many years. Just recently it changed, but currently there is a
really outstanding artist working on them and a few good ones. I'm very
glad to see that many of the players like the new graphics.
>
> I see no problem with drawings that look like drawings.
>
>>I'll never make such images. I'll not even try.
>
> But you won't be angry if somebody makes a module using such graphics?
No. I'll be happy for every module that is made. IMO I just provide a
tool - what you do with it is yours. I'm sure some people will surpise
me with their doing, but really the more and the more different thinsg
are done the happier I'll be.
I'll probably be jelous if your module is more liked than mine, but
heck, that's ok. If there is a module that the players like, this is a
very important step for the project.
I just have problems if I shall make images that I don't like ...
[quality or style problem?]
> I think it adds up and it's hard to tell which factor is more important.
> The `realistic' style is generally harder, and you need much better
> quality to make it look good. Also, any `rotten egg' will spoil the looks
> of whole screen, detroying the suspension of disbelief,
This is true. While working on Simutrans I noticed that adding
high-quality images doesn't stop the complaints, but moving low-quality
to average surprisingly does. But finally it just measn each and every
image needs some quality. If I'm in a hurry I often create placeholders
that have low quality and will be replaced by better images later on,
but sometimes they stay there for months before they are updated.
> while with
> cartoony looks you just visually separate such an ugly piece -- maybe
> because you can easily tell the bounds of it.
I don't know. I've never used cartoonish images on purpose.
[...]
>>I don't know what I should do with that knowledge. It's not really new,
>>but so far I think I've just ignored it and I hoped the project would
>>get somewhere if I just continue to work and add features to it.
>
> I think it will be good in the end, as long as you don't abandon your
> project.
Persistance seems to be an important factor, but sometimes I wish I'd
know whats waiting at the end of the path.
>>Copx wrote:
>
>>>Imagine a Baldur's Gate fan (for example). He wants to create
>>>his own iso-CRPG. He downloads H-World. He starts the Jungle demo game
>>>to see what the engine is capable of...
>>>What do you think he will think about it?!
>>>
>>>I can tell you: Total crap. Delete.
>>
>>I guess this is true. The Infinity Engine that Bioware uses is much
>>bigger and better. First of all it's bigger - it dumped 2GB graphics
>>data on my harddisc when I installed BG2.
>>
>>I don't think "Infnity engine vs. H-World engine" is a fair competition.
[...]
>>I feel honored if my work is compared with such products. But it's
>>pretty clear also which results such a comparation will produce.
>
> You engine already surpasses that of Bioware in some aspects.
Yes, but it's only a few special cases. I admit, that I'm trying to beat
them in some areas, but I well know in some areas I'll not be able to,
particularly the areas of bundled animated high quality images. Also
e.g. graphical spell effects are completely missing in H-World.
There is a vectorball engine in H-World to do some tricks with moving
sprites but it's not used currently. I'll have to test how fast the Lua
interface actually is, e.g. if Lua functions are fast enough to
determine the paths of a few dozen sprites while playing a spell effect.
My first test was a swarm of sprites, circling in towards the mage,
collapse in front of him and accelerate towards the target wher they
explode again.
I adimit this is another case of "cool thing" that Copx always mentiones
if wants to tell that I don't know what a game needs.
But I think these things, even if they aren't useful at the moment when
they are created, are still cool and hopefully useful in later stages of
the project. And if they are not, it was fun creating them, and I
wouldn't call it wasted time :)
c.u.
Hajo
R. Alan Monroe
>First of all, if you really want people to use your engine to make games,
>you have to change your target audience. You don't want to target
>programmers. You want to target the amatuer game designer who may or may not
>have much programming skill.
It seemed like there were always loads of sites about ZZT, which is a
kind of game engine. Those people might like it.
Alan
Pfhoenix
> kind of game engine. Those people might like it.
ZZT is a fairly advanced game engine framework with very nice scripting
support (to include AI).
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> "Hansjoerg Malthaner" <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> schrieb im
> Newsbeitrag news:2t7dq7F...@uni-berlin.de...
> [snip]
>
> Good graphics aren't a matter of taste.
> Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Arcanum, Diablo, etc. all of them have good
> graphics.
> H-World doesn't.
>
> See here:
> http://h-world.simugraph.com/images/wilderness_036.png
>
> I would draw characters like that (and I'm a VERY bad painter)!
> They look like 2D paper cuts fresh out of a primary school class, sorry.
Could you paint the trees also?
The plants?
The leather armor and the green dress of the traderess?
The mule?
The well?
I agree that some images are bad. But not all of them are bad. Some are
good, and some are very good.
http://h-world.simugraph.com/images/cellars_036.png
Look at the bed!
The carpet!
The walls and doors.
http://www.simugraph.com/misc/demo_1.png
The bed and the wooden chest?
http://www.simugraph.com/misc/demo_2.png
The statues and the marble chest!
I say some of the images are good. I even say many of them are good.
> copx
c.u.
Hajo
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
[snip list of graphics feedback]
Thanks a lot! This really helps, now I know where to start :)
> As I mentioned above
> not all of your graphics are bad. It is mostly humanoids that I do not
> like that much.
Your feedback is interesting: the things that I've painted, are the
worst. Those from photos are medium/good. The raytraced ones are mostly
good.
I'm not quite sure what to do with the humans. To use a photo of a real
person, I need the agreement of the person. I could ask my family
members :)
> And as you said, some of the graphics doesn't fit
> together very well.
Yes, this is one of the most tricky things. Color, lighting, size
relations, it's quite difficult to get them right. I'm working on that.
I hope it will gradually improve.
>> I've also understood: creating an engine is a bad idea if I want a lot
>> of feedback, because there are to few potential users. People judge by
>> first impression, so it's important to improve the demo game module,
>> because this is what people see first.
>
> I think you should go with something that most people recognise and feel
> familiar with, ie traditional fantasy or sci-fi. This may sound boring,
> and I think "The Jungle" is a bold attempt at breaking the mold, but I
> also believe that by doing a game module with a setting that a lot of
> people recignise and feel familiar with you will get more players/mod
> makers.
Steam powered space ships ;)
Erm, ok, traditional you said :)
The most frequently mentioned problem is "I don't know what to do". The
setting itself didn't generate much feedback yet. I think I'll follow
Copx advice and weave a story that involves the player right from the start.
> I hope you will continue working on H-World despite this discussion.
I will.
> It's hard to take critisism and I hope you do not take this personally.
It's a bit difficult. I'm usually quite proud of my creations and
therefore criticism really hurts.
Some people, like you, get their message through quite well. Some others
make me angry quite quickly which usally means that I ignore them from
that point. Which doesn't really help the case :(
I'm not very talented in handling critics. I know this, but it's hard to
control emotions.
> Best regards,
> Björn Bergström
c.u.
Hajo
DarkGod
> It seems I must accept the fact that this project won't be terribly
> popular and that I'll continue it just for the fun that I have while
> creating it.
Why would you make it if not for yourself ? for the fun of it. There i no
point otehrwise, face it you wont become filthy rich with it as good as it
could be without full shiny antialiased trilinearfiltered mega pixel
shaded 3 graphics, so you should concentrate on having fun.
I'm writting ToME/T-Engine because I'm having fun doing so, and because
using my engine I'll be able to create many new games I wanted to create
for a long time much more easily(a fallout based game, a "my own setting"
game, a recreation of angband, a recreation of moria, and many others :=)
I'm sure even with it I wont have time to make them all though atht's why
I'm tyring to make it easy to use for other people :)
And even the sucky T-Engine 2 is being put to great use already by modders
so this gives me much hopes :)
Glen Wheeler
"Hansjoerg Malthaner" <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote in message
news:2t7jk4F...@uni-berlin.de...
> The Sheep wrote::
>
>> Dnia Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:35:59 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner napisal(a):
>
>> Another thing is lack of good graphics in window decorations, main
>> screen, etc. I think that a well designed `skin' would really improve
>> the looks.
>
> I agree fully. A better skin is seriously needed. Particualrly the borders
> of the inventory areas need improvement.
>
I always found the skins of blizzard games very appealing; why not take a
screenshot of a favourite (warcraft II comes to mind) and then use parts of
that? Or even just use it as a base?
> I've tried several variants, but all seemed worse than the current. Yet, I
> think this really needs a change.
>
I really admire your project Hajo, and I don't like to see this kind of
aggressive criticism. But it's true, that most people will judge your
entire project based on the game demo. But more on this later :).
>> I know it's a low priority, and a nice bit of work, but it really has
>> large impact on the looks (good painting looks bad in bad frames).
>
> Yes. A good skin can lift an application to a whole new level.
>
[cartoony vs. photorealistic]
>>>Maybe this is "a matter of taste"? In regards to Björns suggestion: I
>>>think the mentioned tilesets are definitely worse than most of H-Worlds
>>>images. It's childish style. Disproportionate, outlined, flat colored
>>>crap. (Copx said crap, too, so I feel free to use that word here).
>>
>> They are that way, and that's the beauty of them. The `cartoony' look has
>> a very long tradition in computer games. Do you think that settlers had
>> bad graphics, for example?
>
> Settlers II is ok, I think. I still like the look.
>
> > And your simutrans?
>
> The bad graphics of Simutrans were a constant complaint of the players for
> many years. Just recently it changed, but currently there is a really
> outstanding artist working on them and a few good ones. I'm very glad to
> see that many of the players like the new graphics.
Well, look at things this way; you have chosen the harder path. I cannot
even pretend to create photorealistic pictures, and neither can my friends.
Well, all my friends who aren't CG artists (and currently very well
employed). So we make very ``bad'' cartoon graphics. However, these
cartoon-type graphics are consistent and appear (at least to me) to make
sense. They are also rather iconic, and I would suggest rather expected of
an amateur project.
I think the basic problem here is that photorealistic images are much
harder to do averagely than cartoon mock-ups. I will also add that when I
first played ``The Jungle'' I was shocked by the graphics; in that some of
them were so nice (the Jackal springs to mind).
>>
>> I see no problem with drawings that look like drawings.
>>
>>>I'll never make such images. I'll not even try.
This is a good thing! Only do what you enjoy.
>> But you won't be angry if somebody makes a module using such graphics?
>
> No. I'll be happy for every module that is made. IMO I just provide a
> tool - what you do with it is yours. I'm sure some people will surpise me
> with their doing, but really the more and the more different thinsg are
> done the happier I'll be.
>
> I'll probably be jelous if your module is more liked than mine, but heck,
> that's ok. If there is a module that the players like, this is a very
> important step for the project.
>
> I just have problems if I shall make images that I don't like ...
>
This is all good. But to make people want to make their own games using
your engine the game demo needs to be quite good. You can do it!
> [quality or style problem?]
>
>> I think it adds up and it's hard to tell which factor is more important.
>> The `realistic' style is generally harder, and you need much better
>> quality to make it look good. Also, any `rotten egg' will spoil the
>> looks
>> of whole screen, detroying the suspension of disbelief,
>
> This is true. While working on Simutrans I noticed that adding
> high-quality images doesn't stop the complaints, but moving low-quality to
> average surprisingly does. But finally it just measn each and every image
> needs some quality. If I'm in a hurry I often create placeholders that
> have low quality and will be replaced by better images later on, but
> sometimes they stay there for months before they are updated.
>
See, with the cartoon-style graphics these placeholder images look much
more in-theme with the rest of the screen :). But this is really a moot
point, and I think both styles can be very enjoyable.
[..]
> [...]
>>>I don't know what I should do with that knowledge. It's not really new,
>>>but so far I think I've just ignored it and I hoped the project would get
>>>somewhere if I just continue to work and add features to it.
>>
>> I think it will be good in the end, as long as you don't abandon your
>> project.
>
> Persistance seems to be an important factor, but sometimes I wish I'd know
> whats waiting at the end of the path.
>
Given an averagely fun game demo, I'd say you can enjoy a moderate amount
of success. Given a highly addictive, complex game demo with many neat and
new features there is no telling how successful H-World can be. Given
*several* of these modules, well, people who download it will feel like a
spoiled kid on christmas morn :).
[infinity vs. h-world]
> [...]
>
>>>I feel honored if my work is compared with such products. But it's pretty
>>>clear also which results such a comparation will produce.
>>
>> You engine already surpasses that of Bioware in some aspects.
>
> Yes, but it's only a few special cases. I admit, that I'm trying to beat
> them in some areas, but I well know in some areas I'll not be able to,
> particularly the areas of bundled animated high quality images. Also e.g.
> graphical spell effects are completely missing in H-World.
>
I think it's a great idea to compare your engine to that of Bioware. For
sure, try and surpass them in the things you *can* surpass them in. But
also make sure everything else is accounted for. Those flashy graphics may
be impossible to equal, at least for us, but we still need something.
My own personal complaint about The Jungle, apart from lack of theme and
plot, is roleplaying. If there is no story, then I'll roleplay, but I found
that difficult without things like a magic system or tuned UI support for
ranged combat.
> There is a vectorball engine in H-World to do some tricks with moving
> sprites but it's not used currently. I'll have to test how fast the Lua
> interface actually is, e.g. if Lua functions are fast enough to determine
> the paths of a few dozen sprites while playing a spell effect.
>
> My first test was a swarm of sprites, circling in towards the mage,
> collapse in front of him and accelerate towards the target wher they
> explode again.
>
> I adimit this is another case of "cool thing" that Copx always mentiones
> if wants to tell that I don't know what a game needs.
>
Not at all! Copx was overly harsh in his criticisms, and many did not
make sense. I did not think ``Total Crap. Delete.'' when I used H-World, I
more thought ``Unfinished alpha project, download again later''.
Spell effects are the kinds of things which I *really* enjoy coding.
Others do also (anybody played FFVII?) and unless overly long players
usually enjoy watching them too.
> But I think these things, even if they aren't useful at the moment when
> they are created, are still cool and hopefully useful in later stages of
> the project. And if they are not, it was fun creating them, and I wouldn't
> call it wasted time :)
>
Neither would I.
One final piece of advice:
- Don't be discouraged. H-World has incredible potential.
- Number *one* priority should be to develop a fun demo game. I know you
can do it. Just write something you would like to play (I've seen you write
these kinds of things!) and then code the capability. If you don't want a
quest at the beginning, then fine, don't give the player a quest at the
beginning. BUT! You need to explain what is going on. You have some
internal presumptions (e.g.: It is fun to explore the game world.) which
need to be explained (e.g.: Internal presumption is ``It is fun to explore
the game world.'', in-game justification ``You are a great explorer on some
mission.''). Even basic things; *you* know the skeleton captain needs to
die. But nobody else does! These things need help.
- Keep implementing new and exciting features, but only if you can use them
in your game demo. Great example is the vectorball engine. Make up a magic
system for The Jungle. Make spell effects. Make spells. Everyone loves
spells :). *Make sure they fit into the Jungle*.
Keep up the good work Hajo.
--
Glen
L:Pyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Gerry Quinn
says...
> Another idea: make the necro female. Female arch-villians are less standard
> than male ones (aka not so boring).
I don't think gender matters much when you're a skeleton.
- Gerry Quinn
Ray Dillinger
> "Erik Järlemyr" <ar...@df.lth.se> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:Jwxbd.106154$dP1.3...@newsc.telia.net...
> [snip advice on constructive criticism]
>
> Of course you're right.
> The form of delivery wasn't exactly optimal
> form a psychological point of view.
Actually I have a different standard for constructive criticism.
Constructive criticism always includes specific advice about
what to fix and what could be better about it.
"The graphics suck!" <-- Not constructive.
"These images need work:
Tiger Bug
Garden Wall
Most villagers
Player character" <-- constructive.
Bear
Davis Chord
news:cklgas$6f1$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Sorry, the graphics of "The Jungle" are amateurish crap.
> You'll impress no-one with them. People will think your
> engine is just as crappy as the graphics.
Really? I actually liked H-World/The Jungle's graphics. I mean yes, it looks
sort of inconsistant and unprofessional, but from a fellow developer's
point-of-view it makes me feel very comfortable whilst wandering about. More
than likely it's just me that feels this way. :P Hurrumph.
> Your demo also lacks movement and combat animation.
> Sorry, but again people who care about graphics expect them.
I thought it was a roguelike engine? A little "@" ASCII hero running about a
80x25 screen is less graphically impressive than what Hansjoerg has managed
to create here. If he's targetting roguelike players/developers/fans, then
what he's got is certain to attract them. I'm not interested in developing
off of Hans' base, but it's been looking very detailed and impressive as of
late. (I just wish there was more "direction" to the game :P)
-- Davis Chord
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> "copx" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
>>Your demo also lacks movement and combat animation.
>>Sorry, but again people who care about graphics expect them.
>
> I thought it was a roguelike engine?
The lack of animation has another reason. It's too much work, and I'm
not skilled enough to create animations.
H-World uses a overlay system to paint the PC image. There is a base
image, and each part of equipment adds an overlay. The complete stack
looks like the PC wearing and holding all the stuff that he actually
wears and holds in the game.
If we add movement and combat animations to the engine, each and every
item overalay must be drawn for all animation phases.
E.g. currently a sword needs one overlay.
If we have 8 directional images, the sword needs 8 overlays. If movement
consists if 4 phases in 8 directions, there are 32 overlays needed.
If combat and other animations are added even more images are needed.
And there isn't just a sword, but dozens of equipment items. Adding
animations means to draw or render hundreds of images.
These images will raise the size of the package drastically. E.g.
currently there are about 600KB of graphics data. Using the above
example of 32 images for a movement animation, it grows to roughly 19MB.
1) I can't create that much images
2) I don't want that big downloads
>>Sorry, but again people who care about graphics expect them.
So regardless what players expect, I can't do it.
The situation might change if a graphics artist with a lot of time joins
the project.
The engine in it's current state supports playing simple animations. I
once made a demo, Sheep and ABCGi probably remember it.
For testing I once made a walking animation. It used a hacked version of
the engine as a proof of concept. It was never released, though, it was
just for me to learn how animations are coded and to see what effort
this means.
Well. Having no animations now doesn't mean H-World will never have
animations. But I'll not create them, I just can't (lack of time and skill).
If someone wants to help, I'll be very glad. But it's really is a big
amount of work, and if we start I want a long-term partnership, because
I'll not be able to continue the project if the artist jumps off before
all the animations are done.
> -- Davis Chord
c.u.
Hajo
Björn Bergström
> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström wrote::
>>
>>> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>>
>>
>> [snip list of graphics feedback]
>>
> a couple of things that
> sprung to mind while reading the discourse:
>
> a) A new graphical style (such as Nintendo) would be more suited to
> another module, rather than redoing all the existing work on The Jungle.
> After all you have an engine for the sake of being able to do just that,
> create different modules with different looks/gameplay.
I agree with this. This is one of the big advantages when having an
engine to build a game on.
[snip b, graphics]
>
> c) The suggestions of an editor are terrific (ie XML map editor) but
> should wait until a stable settled version of the engine, as we have
> discussed before the difficulty of editors and a changing base. This
> road feels like diving into the technical again (which you obviously
> enjoy and are sometimes distracted by - something I can fully
> understand) rather than the gameplay which I think is the currently
> suggested priority? I would consider coding an editor to help me write
> my mod (think ID tools) once the engine was complete, but that seems a
> while off.
An editor for the maps would be a very useful tool for someone that
would like to make a Zelda like game (with Zelda like graphics ;-) with
Zelda like fixed maps. Does H-World support top-down graphics or only
isometric?
[snip criticism]
>
> Perhaps patience and "build it they will come"?
OT: Does that quote originate from the movie "Field of Dreams" with
Kevin Costner or is the quote older than that?
[snip current state of h-world]
--
Erik Järlemyr
"Ray Dillinger" <be...@sonic.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:LxDbd.17320$54.2...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> copx wrote:
[snip]
> Actually I have a different standard for constructive criticism.
>
> Constructive criticism always includes specific advice about
> what to fix and what could be better about it.
>
> "The graphics suck!" <-- Not constructive.
>
> "These images need work:
> Tiger Bug
> Garden Wall
> Most villagers
> Player character" <-- constructive.
Well, yes, that is one definition of ``constructive criticism.创 I think,
however, that criticism may be valid without specific advice on how to fix
things, I would say that the reason of the problem is a lot more important.
Often there are many possible solutions to a problem; pointing out the
reason for the problem and leaving the solution up to the criticised (?) may
prove more helpful (of course it isn't always that you know or have time to
analyse the reason of a problem).
In my dictionary ``constructive创 is defined as ``If advice, criticism or
actions are constructive, they are useful and intended to help or improve
something.创 It could be debated wether this applies to your first example,
however I agree with your assessment; it isn't very helpful...
If I'm not making any sense, or if the text is littered with grammatical
errors, it's because I'm very, very, tired...
> Bear
>
ABCGi
CopX should take into account that all the characters on that screen
shot actually have a naked body with the current inventory drawn
dynamically on them (including NPC's and monsters). This may be why it
has a 2D paper cuts feel. This is necessary because it is driven by a
generic engine that is capable of drawing almost anything on the screen,
not a feature that should be crippled.
I reiterate that a great RL does not need great graphics, and that being
able to accurately and informatively represent the inventory is more
important - and that then gameplay is more so. Comparing the game to
Bioware's products is not realistic nor constructive, aiming for that is
an ineffective priority for a small team making a free game and engine.
He may have a point about the current state of an isometric world with
effectively 2D characters drawn on them, not aligned to the isometric
direction. This has caused confusion in the past to players trying to
judge distance etc. That is one reason I planned to make the Beyond
H-World mod 2D with smaller grid size or smaller beings.
--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Mike Blackney
>
> I'm not quite sure what to do with the humans. To use a photo of a
> real person, I need the agreement of the person. I could ask my family
> members :)
Try googling for free photos. There's a lot of clipart out there to be
gotten for free, giving you full distibution rights.
And this may help you get around the problem of taking front-on photos
of your family in their underwear. Umm... It's for my internet project.
Yeah.
> The most frequently mentioned problem is "I don't know what to do".
> The setting itself didn't generate much feedback yet. I think I'll
> follow Copx advice and weave a story that involves the player right
> from the start.
This is an excellent idea. I'd also recommend you try to limit the
boundaries of The Jungle. As a demo, it should show not only what the
engine is capable of doing but also make it seem simple to create a fun
game.
You'll probably get much better feedback by having a little, fun game
and saying, "imagine this, only bigger!" than you would by having a
large, empty game and saying, "imagine this, only fun!"
> It's a bit difficult. I'm usually quite proud of my creations and
> therefore criticism really hurts.
>
> Some people, like you, get their message through quite well. Some
> others make me angry quite quickly which usally means that I ignore
> them from that point. Which doesn't really help the case :(
>
> I'm not very talented in handling critics. I know this, but it's hard
> to control emotions.
Don't worry, Hajo - copx hates my game too.
--
michaelblackney at hotmail dot com
http://aburatan.sourceforge.net/
Latest version 0.95 2-5-4
Björn Bergström
> Björn Bergström wrote::
>
>> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>
>
> [snip list of graphics feedback]
>
> Thanks a lot! This really helps, now I know where to start :)
>
>> As I mentioned above not all of your graphics are bad. It is mostly
>> humanoids that I do not like that much.
>
>
> Your feedback is interesting: the things that I've painted, are the
> worst. Those from photos are medium/good. The raytraced ones are mostly
> good.
Oh, I didn't know you used photos for some of the sprites! For the
jackal and mule perhaps? Raytraced sprites for furniture?
> I'm not quite sure what to do with the humans. To use a photo of a real
> person, I need the agreement of the person. I could ask my family
> members :)
Wouldn't this make the humanoids stand out even more? I'm not sure how
commercial companies create their graphics, but my guess is rendered 3D
models fixed up in Photoshop. We've discussed 3D modeling tools before
so enough said about those. :-) Does anyone know if photos are used as
the base for ingame sprites in commercial games?
>> And as you said, some of the graphics doesn't fit together very well.
>
>
> Yes, this is one of the most tricky things. Color, lighting, size
> relations, it's quite difficult to get them right. I'm working on that.
> I hope it will gradually improve.
Does your engine support semi transparency? If it does I'd suggest
adding som semitransparency to the edges of the furniture sprites (and
possibly other sprites as well) to make them blend in a bit more.
>>> I've also understood: creating an engine is a bad idea if I want a
>>> lot of feedback, because there are to few potential users. People
>>> judge by first impression, so it's important to improve the demo game
>>> module, because this is what people see first.
>>
>>
>> I think you should go with something that most people recognise and
>> feel familiar with, ie traditional fantasy or sci-fi. This may sound
>> boring, and I think "The Jungle" is a bold attempt at breaking the
>> mold, but I also believe that by doing a game module with a setting
>> that a lot of people recignise and feel familiar with you will get
>> more players/mod makers.
>
>
> Steam powered space ships ;)
>
> Erm, ok, traditional you said :)
>
> The most frequently mentioned problem is "I don't know what to do". The
> setting itself didn't generate much feedback yet. I think I'll follow
> Copx advice and weave a story that involves the player right from the
> start.
I think this is a good idea. Even the simple stories suggested elsewhere
in this thread would do. When I downloaded and tried the latest version
of The Jungle I got the same feeling, "I don't know what to do"...
Another thing that I didn't realise was that the tiny little thing right
next to my player was my home! I moved to stand on top of it to get a
description of what it was, but instead I was moved to an indoor setting
(ie, I moved iniside). I got a bit confused by the proportions between
the player character and the house... :-)
>> I hope you will continue working on H-World despite this discussion.
>
> I will.
>
>> It's hard to take critisism and I hope you do not take this personally.
>
> It's a bit difficult. I'm usually quite proud of my creations and
> therefore criticism really hurts.
>
> Some people, like you, get their message through quite well. Some others
> make me angry quite quickly which usally means that I ignore them from
> that point. Which doesn't really help the case :(
>
> I'm not very talented in handling critics. I know this, but it's hard to
> control emotions.
Well, keep up the good work (because it is really some good work you're
doing!).
>
>> Best regards,
>> Björn Bergström
>
> c.u.
> Hajo
--
R. Dan Henry
wrote:
>
>"Hansjoerg Malthaner" <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> schrieb im
>Newsbeitrag news:2t6rvsF...@uni-berlin.de...
>[snip]
>> If you think it'll help to attract more users, I'll support plain 2D
>> display.
>
>You should. Isometric graphics are harder to create.
And look how many developers don't bother to try to keep up 2D
graphics, even when the graphics support is already there (i.e., most
Angband variants).
>It's much easier to create OKish 2D tiles.
There are also existing 2D tiles which are free to use, either
completely free or just asking for acknowledgement. Which is, frankly,
what I'd have to do. Maybe modify some of them, but even OKish looking
tiles aren't something everyone can do without a good deal of time
invested.
Hajo, if you want people to use iso-graphics, create a large library
of iso-graphics with a number of genres represented: generic fantasy,
generic sci-fi, modern military/espionage. Also some unusual stuff to
promote less worked themes: pirates, Western, renaissance, tropical
images (already somewhat started with Jungle). If I've got a lot of
images I can start off with, even if some are placeholders that aren't
"quite right", then I'm more likely to be willing to give it a try: I
can have a playable version of my game up and running before needing
to start trying to create new images.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
ABCGi
> [huge snip]
>
>>The game is still effectively in a beta stage since you keep adding new
>>functionality, which is good because there are still some more things it
>>needs.
>
> If he's still adding features, that makes the "game" alpha, not beta. Beta
> stage is when all features are in and bug fixes and gameplay tweaking are
> the large majority of effort.
You could have a point there. Let me correct "beta stage" to "under
development stage".
ABCGi
> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>
>> So I have a serious problem.
>>
>> I think I'll rearrange stuff from "The Jungle" module and try to
>> create a simple game. I'll try to gove the players a quest right from
>> the start, although I have no idea what that could be.
>>
>> I mean I don't want to do this:put an NPC right in front of the
>> players starting position and let him ask "please kill the skeleton
>> capain on castle cellar level 3!"
>>
>> IMO that's outright silly, but then players have quest right from the
>> start, which is obviously what they want?
>
> players don't know what to do.
>
> So, have the player attacked by skeletons on turn 1. He'll know what
> to do (fight!)
>
> When the skeletons are gone, send more skeletons once in a while. Make
> them chase the player, and ignore the other villagers.
>
> Your quest: figure out why the skeleton captain wants you personally
> killed, and stop him from killing you.
>
> Bear
I think the Jungle has a basis for a good RPG with a good plot. I would
not like to see it abandoned. I think working on the game is more
effective than writing a game design at this stage.
What Hajo could do is start taking feedback on the game itself and
improving and changing what is already there, rather than starting from
scratch (like Bear's suggestion above). I believe there has been a
wealth of suggestions in the past but it will require more focus on the
game (in the past only 10%) than just the engine... which I think is the
overriding suggestion?
ABCGi
> "Ray Dillinger" <be...@sonic.net> skrev i meddelandet
> news:LxDbd.17320$54.2...@typhoon.sonic.net...
>
>>copx wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>Actually I have a different standard for constructive criticism.
>>
>>Constructive criticism always includes specific advice about
>>what to fix and what could be better about it.
>>
>>"The graphics suck!" <-- Not constructive.
>>
>>"These images need work:
>> Tiger Bug
>> Garden Wall
>> Most villagers
>> Player character" <-- constructive.
>
> however, that criticism may be valid without specific advice on how to fix
> things, I would say that the reason of the problem is a lot more important.
> Often there are many possible solutions to a problem; pointing out the
> reason for the problem and leaving the solution up to the criticised (?) may
> prove more helpful (of course it isn't always that you know or have time to
> analyse the reason of a problem).
>
> actions are constructive, they are useful and intended to help or improve
> however I agree with your assessment; it isn't very helpful...
>
> If I'm not making any sense, or if the text is littered with grammatical
> errors, it's because I'm very, very, tired...
Whatever the form of constructive criticism (I like both above), the
motivation for the bearer is that the advice is *much* more likely to be
acted on and your relationship with the bearee will be maintained in
much more stead.
One needs the thick skin for the internet!
Gerry Quinn
says...
> He may have a point about the current state of an isometric world with
> effectively 2D characters drawn on them, not aligned to the isometric
> direction. This has caused confusion in the past to players trying to
> judge distance etc. That is one reason I planned to make the Beyond
> H-World mod 2D with smaller grid size or smaller beings.
I think the H-World graphics are not too bad. They are vastly superior
to Falcon's Eye in my view. Perhaps because they are NOT isometric?
- Gerry Quinn
ABCGi
> [snip]
>
>>I mean I don't want to do this:put an NPC right in front of the players
>>starting position and let him ask "please kill the skeleton capain on
>>castle cellar level 3!"
>>
>>IMO that's outright silly, but then players have quest right from the
>>start, which is obviously what they want?
>
> Ok, you already have:
> - "a skeleton captain"
> - "a castle"
> - "villiage people".
>
> I immediately see a plot:
>
> The player is a wandering adventurer. He has just arrived in a new villiage.
> (tell this the user as part of the intro!)
> The villiage elder has come to greet him.
> During the Player <-> Villiage Elder dialog the player is told that
> the villiage is terrorized by a necromancer who hates all life. He lives
> in a dark rotten castle in the north. Of course the player character
> will offer to slay the evil guy (all CRPG heroes do!).
> There's your plot!
>
> Additional game design help.
>
> - create tight borders for the game world so that the player won't get
> lost. So that if he walks into the wrong direction he will quickly
> reach the "end of the world".
>
> - the player should encounter a few easy enemies (your tiger bugs will do
> the trick)
> while he walks north through the wilderness to reach the castle.
>
> - the castle should be a standard dungeon crawl with the necromancer at the
> top or bottom.
>
> And additional idea I just had: to make the plot more "mature" you could
> mention
> the reason why the necromancer hates life: maybe he was born in the villiage
> but
> suffered badly there... Maybe he was an social outcast (birth defects?
> homosexuality? think about it!)
> who eventuelly left the villiage (or was expelled) and is now out for
> revenge .
> As an outcast he probably did spend all his time alone, much time for
> studies and "experiements".
> Maybe he once was a student of the villiage shaman. You can add this info to
> explain how he became an
> necromancer.
>
> Another idea: make the necro female. Female arch-villians are less standard
> than male ones (aka not so boring).
>
>
> copx
CopX you should write a quick Fallout style RPG using Hajo's engine to
illustrate? :)
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> An editor for the maps would be a very useful tool for someone that
> would like to make a Zelda like game (with Zelda like graphics ;-) with
> Zelda like fixed maps.
In a RPG development forum I met the authors of a map editor. It can
read and write XML files, and seems to be highly customizeable. The
authors are very helpful. I'm currently checking how much effort it will
be to write a converter between H-Worlds room/level templates and the
XML files that the editor can read.
The editor:
http://tiled.rpgdx.net/
It's a java application. Users will need to install the Java runtime.
> Does H-World support top-down graphics or only
> isometric?
Currently not. But it isn't too difficult to make one. It was requested
a few times, I think I should make one. ABCGi wants one for his "Beyond
H-World" module, too :)
c.u.
Hajo
R. Dan Henry
<hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>But I'm surprised that the images are rejected so strongly: "amateurish
>crap" (Copx). Some are bad, that's true, but some are IMO very good.
I agree. In fact, I've said that before in previous criticism. I
thought the last version of Jungle I looked at looked rather nice, on
the whole, but had a few graphics that still needed some work to not
let things down. The problem is that people who care about graphics
will likely focus on one or two images at the bottom of the quality
scale and decide it looks cheap.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Oh, I didn't know you used photos for some of the sprites! For the
> jackal and mule perhaps? Raytraced sprites for furniture?
Right :)
>> I'm not quite sure what to do with the humans. To use a photo of a
>> real person, I need the agreement of the person. I could ask my family
>> members :)
>
> Wouldn't this make the humanoids stand out even more?
I can't say. But it isn't really an option, it was rather kind of a joke.
> I'm not sure how
> commercial companies create their graphics, but my guess is rendered 3D
> models fixed up in Photoshop. We've discussed 3D modeling tools before
> so enough said about those. :-)
First, I need new winter tyres for my car. After that I'll start saving
for a Poser license:
http://www.curiouslabs.com/go/poser5
> Does anyone know if photos are used as
> the base for ingame sprites in commercial games?
I doubt it, bacause they need animated images and photos are unsuitable
for this. But I could imagine using photos to craete textures to map
onto the 3D models.
> Does your engine support semi transparency? If it does I'd suggest
> adding som semitransparency to the edges of the furniture sprites (and
> possibly other sprites as well) to make them blend in a bit more.
The engine support semi-transparency but only on a per-tile basis, not
on a per-pixel basis.
>> The most frequently mentioned problem is "I don't know what to do".
>> The setting itself didn't generate much feedback yet. I think I'll
>> follow Copx advice and weave a story that involves the player right
>> from the start.
>
> I think this is a good idea. Even the simple stories suggested elsewhere
> in this thread would do. When I downloaded and tried the latest version
> of The Jungle I got the same feeling, "I don't know what to do"...
>
> Another thing that I didn't realise was that the tiny little thing right
> next to my player was my home!
In the latest version, you start inside your home, currently it looks
somwhat like this:
http://www.simugraph.com/misc/demo_1.png
This is the sleeping room. (Someone needs to tell the mule that is has
to stay outside ;)
Does your version say "H-World 0.3.11.1" in the title bar? If not, take
a look here and get the latest version:
http://www.simugraph.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=11&t_id=27
The village is now a separate level. The houses are placed on the
village level.
But there still is a problem with the level entrances. The hut symbol
that formerly was the entrance to your home now became the entrance of
the village level.
I think I'll move to a Arcanum style world map. This will remove the
need for suchlike level entrances.
> I moved to stand on top of it to get a
> description of what it was, but instead I was moved to an indoor setting
> (ie, I moved iniside). I got a bit confused by the proportions between
> the player character and the house... :-)
Right, thats a problem with all those entrances. The map that links the
locations needs a different scale. Currently I think a solution like
Arcanums world map is a good one, although it's rather abstract
travelling between the locations:
http://www.rpgplanet.com/arcanum/locations/locations.shtml
Locations are marked on the map. You can "travel" between the locations.
If you are attacked during travel, you drop to a random wilderness map area.
>> I'm not very talented in handling critics. I know this, but it's hard
>> to control emotions.
>
> Well, keep up the good work (because it is really some good work you're
> doing!).
Thank you :)
c.u.
Hajo
ABCGi
> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:06:05 +0200, copx <inv...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>> "playtosor" <retiremoiplayt...@free.fr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> news:opsfu71ih2z8jyt3@nicolas...
>>>
>>> > [snip]
>>> >
>>> > Sorry, the graphics of "The Jungle" are amateurish crap.
>>> > You'll impress no-one with them. People will think your
>>> > engine is just as crappy as the graphics.
>>>
>>> Now this is complete and utter non-sense.
>>
>> No, it's not. Most people will judge the book by it's cover
>> believe me.
>>
>> A good impressive demo game is required.
>>
>> copx
>
> Of course, I was talking about your "amateurish crap" statement.
Yes the "crap" part of the sentence was unnecessary, the sentence would
convey the same meaning without it, instead of being in addition cruel,
unsupportive and immature (I hope CopX can take criticism about his
posting style as well as he can dish it out). CopX actually has some
useful things to say in his posts but not many people have the ability
or low self-esteem to see past the big inflamed pet troll he brings with
him.
The 2nd sentence "You'll impress no-one with them" is total inaccuracy
as well, as googling into the past of this ng will reveal examples of
many glowing "impressed" reports of the graphics in H-World during it's
development.
Bryce McQuern
notice until today.
Bryce
The Sheep
>
> "David Damerell" <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:gxt*Vx...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>> Hansjoerg Malthaner <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>>>Björn Bergström wrote::
>>>>>I'm not quite sure what to do with the humans. To use a photo of a
>>>>>real person, I need the agreement of the person. I could ask my family
>>>>>members :)
>>>>Wouldn't this make the humanoids stand out even more?
>>>I can't say. But it isn't really an option, it was rather kind of a joke.
>>
>> might even be LRPers with access to funny costumes.
>
> I know a whole tribe of the lunatics. I could probably get a whole army
> if you like.
That would surely be fun! ^^)))
And if the photos were good quality (mostly resolution and focus, you can
tweak the colors) and on a neutral background, with the same lightning,
and the poses would be roughly the same, I think it woudn't be much of
a problem to cut out and deform the photos to fit.
The lightning and the fact, that the photos would have to be taken from
heigh of about twice men (to make it siometric-compatible) could be a
problem, but not that big for a determined bunch of lunatics with a
digital camera, an empty wall and some lamps at home. And a table to
snad on while doing the photos ^^)))
--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski
You only need pen and paper to do philosophy.
To do mathematics you need pen, paper and a trash can.
Ray Dillinger
> I did hurt your feelings?! Sorry, is r.g.r.d a gay-only art-school class or
> what? You're a grown-up man, damnit! Google for "Tower of Doom" "roguelike"
Please. I regard sexuality as a divine gift, and to denigrate
someone or some group on account of sexuality, is a sacrilege.
Please stop.
Bear
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Hajo, if you want people to use iso-graphics, create a large library
> of iso-graphics with a number of genres represented: generic fantasy,
> generic sci-fi, modern military/espionage. Also some unusual stuff to
> promote less worked themes: pirates, Western, renaissance, tropical
> images (already somewhat started with Jungle).
Good plan :)
The problem is, that creating images is fairly slow, at least for me.
E.g. last weekend I made a wash basin and a wooden bucket. Both were
done with the PovRay raytrace. Geometrically they are fairly simple
shapes well suited for raytracing.
The wash basin took about two hours to be done, yet it is a very simple
object. Most time went into finetuning of the surface.
Same for the bucket. It took about an hour until - not that I'm
particularly please with the wood texture now, but I just gave up
because I couldn't create waht I want, and decided the bucket is "good
enough" as it is.
I think I can create one or two good images a week. If I try more, it
ends like the village people, the quality is noticeably lower.
I don't think I can create a larger collection of images.
> If I've got a lot of
> images I can start off with, even if some are placeholders that aren't
> "quite right", then I'm more likely to be willing to give it a try: I
> can have a playable version of my game up and running before needing
> to start trying to create new images.
Maybe the situations improves when support of rectangular 2D tiles is
added to H-World. There are a lot of free 2D tilesets available, in
various sizes and styles.
> R. Dan Henry
> danh...@inreach.com
c.u.
Hajo
Björn Bergström
> Björn Bergström wrote::
>
>
>
> Right, thats a problem with all those entrances. The map that links the
> locations needs a different scale. Currently I think a solution like
> Arcanums world map is a good one, although it's rather abstract
> travelling between the locations:
>
> http://www.rpgplanet.com/arcanum/locations/locations.shtml
>
> Locations are marked on the map. You can "travel" between the locations.
> If you are attacked during travel, you drop to a random wilderness map
> area.
I like this approach very much. Didn't BG have something like this as well?
[snip]>
>
> Thank you :)
>
> c.u.
> Hajo
copx
"R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:kmn0n0p3k2v5u84a1...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:27:53 +0200, "copx" <inv...@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I did hurt your feelings?! Sorry, is r.g.r.d a gay-only art-school class
or
> >what? You're a grown-up man, damnit!
>
> your postings. Your inability to distinguish criticism from negativity
> and rudeness is impressing nobody. And now your bigotry is showing.
> Keep posting and ignoring the ***LOW PUBLIC RESPECT WARNING*** message
> you space-barred past.
Troll?
"2. n. An individual who regularly posts specious arguments, flames or
personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other
purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion."
The important part is "for no other purpose than.."
At best you can call me a flamer but I'm surely not a troll.
Rude?
Yep. I'm rude sometimes. So what?!
Bigotry?
What do you mean? The "gay-only art-school" comment?
Damn, I was just joking. Call the PC thought police if you like *LOL*
BTW, I'm wasting way too much time here again.
I've other things to do. So I'll leave this thread alone right now. Of
course you can continue to chat about my rudeness, bigorty or whatever as
long as you like.
I couldn't care less. Have fun! :)
copx
PS.: Don't worry because I'm NOT A TROLL I will not brother Hajo or other
people with my kind of criticism again. Because it would only disrupt this
nice little touchy-feely community.
R. Dan Henry
wrote:
>And the pieces you're complaining about already have their replacements.
>Maybe not much nicer, but you could take a look:
>
>http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/hworld/
Some of these are *very* nice. The human figures, however, still don't
look all that good. It is very hard to do good looking humans that
small.* The naga also appears to have slightly off proportions (the
perspective on her forward tail seems exaggerated), but that's less of
a problem, since the human eye is particularly sensitive to things
that are "off" in the human face or form. On the whole though, this
looks like a nice set, but there is still the problem of some images
clearly not being as good as others. I'm looking at them in isolation,
of course, and seen as displayed in-game, I might form different
opinions about some of them. And to point to something other than the
humans, the blurry revolver seems an ugly mismatch to the rest of the
set.
Favorite item: idol (fedora is very nice, too)
Favorite monster: rat-rabbit, with honorable mentions to the monkey,
panther, and ant.
* - Go small enough and a pixel isn't a fine-grained enough width to
not have something either too thick or too thin to be in proportion.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Björn Bergström
> Björn Bergström wrote::
>
>> An editor for the maps would be a very useful tool for someone that
>> would like to make a Zelda like game (with Zelda like graphics ;-)
>> with Zelda like fixed maps.
>
>
> In a RPG development forum I met the authors of a map editor. It can
> read and write XML files, and seems to be highly customizeable. The
> authors are very helpful. I'm currently checking how much effort it will
> be to write a converter between H-Worlds room/level templates and the
> XML files that the editor can read.
>
> The editor:
> http://tiled.rpgdx.net/
Have you looked at Mappy? I don't know if it is still under development,
but it can output maps in a number of formats (not XML though).
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/7336/robmpy.htm
>
> It's a java application. Users will need to install the Java runtime.
>
> > Does H-World support top-down graphics or only
>
>> isometric?
>
>
> Currently not. But it isn't too difficult to make one. It was requested
> a few times, I think I should make one. ABCGi wants one for his "Beyond
> H-World" module, too :)
If it's not a big effort, I think you should add support for this.
> c.u.
> Hajo
MSCHAEF.COM
ABCGi <ab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
>The 2nd sentence "You'll impress no-one with them" is total inaccuracy
>as well, as googling into the past of this ng will reveal examples of
>many glowing "impressed" reports of the graphics in H-World during it's
>development.
Add my name to the list of people who think H-World's graphics look quite
nice. It's not professional quality (for these days), but it's very
impressive nonetheless.
-Mike
--
http://www.mschaef.com
Glen Wheeler
"copx" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:ckprdh$kri$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> "R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:kmn0n0p3k2v5u84a1...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:27:53 +0200, "copx" <inv...@invalid.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>
> PS.: Don't worry because I'm NOT A TROLL I will not brother Hajo or other
> people with my kind of criticism again. Because it would only disrupt this
> nice little touchy-feely community.
>
I don't think you are a troll, just that some of your comments when taken
out of the context of your post are trolling.
Anyway, what do you mean "touchy-feely community"? Are you just annoyed
at the criticism directed at *you*?
--
Glen
L:Pyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
The Sheep
> On 14 Oct 2004 15:55:58 GMT, The Sheep <sh...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl>
> wrote:
>
>>And the pieces you're complaining about already have their replacements.
>>Maybe not much nicer, but you could take a look:
>>
>>http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/hworld/
>
> Some of these are *very* nice. The human figures, however, still don't
> look all that good. It is very hard to do good looking humans that
> small.* The naga also appears to have slightly off proportions (the
> perspective on her forward tail seems exaggerated), but that's less of
> a problem, since the human eye is particularly sensitive to things
> that are "off" in the human face or form. On the whole though, this
> looks like a nice set, but there is still the problem of some images
> clearly not being as good as others. I'm looking at them in isolation,
> of course, and seen as displayed in-game, I might form different
> opinions about some of them. And to point to something other than the
> humans, the blurry revolver seems an ugly mismatch to the rest of the
> set.
Thanks, now I know what I'm standing on :)
<snip>
> * - Go small enough and a pixel isn't a fine-grained enough width to
> not have something either too thick or too thin to be in proportion.
Yes, and alpha channel would be a good thing (tm), be it a full channel,
or just an additional layer of 50% transparency. But then all the things
would need at least two layers, and it would be pretty tough to separate
the transparent and non-transparent parts by a newbie graphic (no probs
when you use GIMP :) ).
R. Dan Henry
<hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>Erm ... you know that the base character images are almost naked?
"Hey, babe, want to star in a CRPG?" will be the new official r.g.r.d.
pick-up line.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>I don't think I can create a larger collection of images.
So the question is how to get them.
You can support flat 2D display, which allows the use of existing tile
sets. This basically forgets about trying to have iso-graphic games.
You can make the iso-graphic images yourself. You don't think you can
do that and probably are right. Not all by yourself, but everyone you
make expands your library.
You can get iso-graphic images from others. This could be either old
images or new images.
Old images: I don't know where you might hope to find these. What
about the old iso-Angband? Are there any images made for that which
could be salvaged for H-World? Have you searched the web to see if
there might be some free images for isometric graphics? I don't know
of any, but I've never looked.
New images: Advertising H-World in more artistic groups might attract
some users who can't program, but can make some good looking images.
The artist/game-designer seems to be H-World's particular niche of
appeal. rgrd is a programmer/game-designer heavy group and not many
here are much at putting together pretty pictures and those that are
may already have a set they are working on.
You could ask anyone who has created a flat tile set and who is active
on the 'net if they would perhaps be interested in working on
iso-graphics. A little flattery here might get results.
Same for those who have done a bunch of Simutrans images. Maybe one of
them would like to try his hand at a new challenge. You'll probably
need an artist who can get interested in H-World and maybe even in
making his own game with it, but it doesn't hurt to ask. You might at
least be able to get one or two images as a "thank you" gift from a
Simutrans user.
But without a library to give a game a start, the graphics hurdle is
just too high for most would-be game-makers.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Alan Monroe
>For testing I once made a walking animation. It used a hacked version of
>the engine as a proof of concept. It was never released, though, it was
>just for me to learn how animations are coded and to see what effort
>this means.
>
>Well. Having no animations now doesn't mean H-World will never have
>animations. But I'll not create them, I just can't (lack of time and skill).
I think I've mentioned it before, but I'd be satisfied with simple
animation where nonchanging sprites animated solely by shifting back
and forth a few pixels. I wrote a test program like this once, and it
looked OK. Many NES games did this too.
Alan
R. Alan Monroe
>Same for the bucket. It took about an hour until - not that I'm
>particularly please with the wood texture now, but I just gave up
>because I couldn't create waht I want, and decided the bucket is "good
>enough" as it is.
>
>I think I can create one or two good images a week. If I try more, it
>ends like the village people, the quality is noticeably lower.
>
>I don't think I can create a larger collection of images.
It might be a silly idea, but you could try clay sculptures, like this
game did:
http://www.e-funsoft.com/platypus/screenshot1.jpg
Of course, it'd be a huge change in style, but the lighting and
shadows would be free.
There are also bits of grass and trees made for model trains that you
could photograph.
Alan
The Sheep
Heh, I'm a little into tabletop battles recently, and I've got a few
friends with collection of their scenery and miniatures.
I don't think we can use commercial miniatures though, and making
your own in this scale is almost impossible, I tried it.
Björn Bergström
>
>>copx wrote::
>>
>>
>>>"Erik Järlemyr" <ar...@df.lth.se> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>>>news:Jwxbd.106154$dP1.3...@newsc.telia.net...
>>>[snip advice on constructive criticism]
>>>
>>>Of course you're right.
>>>The form of delivery wasn't exactly optimal
>>>form a psychological point of view.
>>
>>Good. Next time please consider this before you write and hurt other
>>peoples feelings.
>
>
> I did hurt your feelings?! Sorry, is r.g.r.d a gay-only art-school class or
> what?
WTF? Are you totally retarded, a personal friend of Rocco Buttiglione or
just plain stupid!? Statistically there should be a number of gay people
reading this NG and I'm sure that you've by now not only hurt Hajo's
feelings but a few others as well. Please keep your bigotry to youself.
> copx
--
Björn Bergström - Close friend to several gay people
Hansjoerg Malthaner
A few of such things are included already, e.g. during fighting the
images make little jumps. Moving doesn't move from tile center to tile
center but has some small random offsets. This isn't particularly great
but already helps a little bit.
Yesterday I found a bug in the animation code that I was looking for
since ages. The next version should have fully working animation support.
Still I think animations are a low priority. A lot of feedback was given
about problems of the existing image set. I think I should rather take
care of improving the existing still images before I care about drawing
animations?
--
c.u. Hajo
http://h-world.simugraph.com
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> You guys have been positively prolific discussing H-World. I didn't
> notice until today.
We've used the H-World feedback forum:
http://www.simugraph.com/forum/viewforum.php?id=5
> Bryce
c.u.
Hajo
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Dnia Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:19:34 -0700, R Dan Henry napisal(a):
>
>>* - Go small enough and a pixel isn't a fine-grained enough width to
>>not have something either too thick or too thin to be in proportion.
>
> Yes, and alpha channel would be a good thing (tm), be it a full channel,
> or just an additional layer of 50% transparency. But then all the things
> would need at least two layers, and it would be pretty tough to separate
> the transparent and non-transparent parts by a newbie graphic (no probs
> when you use GIMP :) ).
We could try to use OpenGL to render the tiles. It's fast (usually
hardware accellerated) and support an alpha channel IIRC.
The problem: I can't get it running on my development box, all I have is
a software emualtion layer and that's terribly slow.
c.u.
Hajo
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
[Plain 2D display]
>> Currently not. But it isn't too difficult to make one. It was
>> requested a few times, I think I should make one. ABCGi wants one for
>> his "Beyond H-World" module, too :)
>
> If it's not a big effort, I think you should add support for this.
I've implemented a first version this weekend. Game modules now can
choose plain 2D display and isometric display. The display module will
be included in the next release.
I'll probably not spend time to create a 2D demo module (particularly
becuase I don't have proper wall images), but ABCGi once said he'd like
to use 2D display for "Beyond H-World" ?
c.u.
Hajo
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:11:41 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>
>>It seems I must accept the fact that this project won't be terribly
>>popular and that I'll continue it just for the fun that I have while
>>creating it.
>
> Why would you make it if not for yourself ? for the fun of it. There i no
> point otehrwise, face it you wont become filthy rich with it as good as it
> could be without full shiny antialiased trilinearfiltered mega pixel
> shaded 3 graphics, so you should concentrate on having fun.
You're right, but now and then I like to show my results, and often I
hope for positive feedback. Negative feedback is ok, too, izt helps to
find out what's wrong. The worst case IMO is no feedback.
Lately I had anbnounce the new H-World version in several places and
actually noone seemed to care. That was the beginning of this thread ...
the reason why I wrote "H-World is quite unpopular"
> I'm writting ToME/T-Engine because I'm having fun doing so, and because
> using my engine I'll be able to create many new games I wanted to create
> for a long time much more easily(a fallout based game, a "my own setting"
> game, a recreation of angband, a recreation of moria, and many others :=)
My motivation is similar, but probably less creating games than adding
features and testing if they work.
The difference seems to be, that I live on feedback, too. Being ignored
is something I really don't like. So even if my core motivation is the
fun of creation, I don't want to stay in my ivory tower all the time but
sometimes I put my creations outside and hope some people will come by,
look at them and speak a little bit about them and with me.
I don't do it for them, but I like to know what thes think about it.
I admit, if the feedback is negative, I tend to defend my creations. Of
course, I like them and creating something means to care about it.
> I'm sure even with it I wont have time to make them all though atht's why
> I'm tyring to make it easy to use for other people :)
This is a good point: useabilitly
We (= all designers, regardless of project) should care much more about
it I think.
> And even the sucky T-Engine 2 is being put to great use already by modders
> so this gives me much hopes :)
I admire your success. I hope, some day someone will make a mod for
H-World, too :)
c.u.
Hajo
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:42:47 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner
> <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>
>
>>I don't think I can create a larger collection of images.
>
>
> So the question is how to get them.
>
> You can support flat 2D display, which allows the use of existing tile
> sets. This basically forgets about trying to have iso-graphic games.
I'll do this. Basic display support for flat 2D tiles is now included.
There are a few things to change, e.g. doors in H-World not onbly change
the image if opened but also the tile moves a bit, which is probaly
undesireable in 2D display. But the rest is fine already.
> You can make the iso-graphic images yourself. You don't think you can
> do that and probably are right. Not all by yourself, but everyone you
> make expands your library.
It's growing, but slowly.
> You can get iso-graphic images from others. This could be either old
> images or new images.
Old images: usually each set has a individual size and style.
Technically the different sizes and transparency modes are problematic,
artistically the different styles cause trouble.
H-World uses a rather big and maybe even unusual size of tiles. The
tiles are basically 128x128 pixel squares, but placed on a isometric
64x32 pixel grid.
New images can be made to fit in size and style right away.
> Old images: I don't know where you might hope to find these. What
> about the old iso-Angband?
H-World started with the smae tile size as iso-Angband, but later I
chose to double the tile size and now they don't fit as well anymore.
> Are there any images made for that which
> could be salvaged for H-World?
In the beginning when H-World used 64x64 pixel tiles as iso-Angband
does, quite some tiles could be shared. But after the change to 128x128
pixel tiles, only the tiger bug and the stairs remained.
> Have you searched the web to see if
> there might be some free images for isometric graphics?
David Gervais offers a free set of isometric tiles I think. They are
56x56 pixels I thinks.
> New images: Advertising H-World in more artistic groups might attract
> some users who can't program, but can make some good looking images.
> The artist/game-designer seems to be H-World's particular niche of
> appeal. rgrd is a programmer/game-designer heavy group and not many
> here are much at putting together pretty pictures and those that are
> may already have a set they are working on.
I didn't ask becuase I wanted to be sure about the setting and plot of
the demo module first.
Sheep once asked me what images I need. I didn't really know what to
answer, because I didn't know if I want to keep the jungle idea or
rather start another scenario.
I think first I need a plan what to do. Then I can look for help doing it.
> Same for those who have done a bunch of Simutrans images. Maybe one of
> them would like to try his hand at a new challenge. You'll probably
> need an artist who can get interested in H-World and maybe even in
> making his own game with it, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
That's my preferred solution. It would also solve the problem to design
the demo game. ABCGi and Sheep started this way, ABCGi has the ideas to
design a module and Sheep has the skills to paint the images.
I'd then listen to them and code what they need, or at least try to find
a compromise solution.
> But without a library to give a game a start, the graphics hurdle is
> just too high for most would-be game-makers.
That's most likely true.
R. Dan Henry
<hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>R. Dan Henry wrote::
>> Old images: I don't know where you might hope to find these. What
>> about the old iso-Angband?
>
>H-World started with the smae tile size as iso-Angband, but later I
>chose to double the tile size and now they don't fit as well anymore.
Double their size and clean up? It would take some time, but probably
quicker than creation from scratch.
>> Have you searched the web to see if
>> there might be some free images for isometric graphics?
>
>David Gervais offers a free set of isometric tiles I think. They are
>56x56 pixels I thinks.
Then you might want to support that size, just to have an existing
tileset. Or see if you can adapt them.
>> New images: Advertising H-World in more artistic groups might attract
>> some users who can't program, but can make some good looking images.
>> The artist/game-designer seems to be H-World's particular niche of
>> appeal. rgrd is a programmer/game-designer heavy group and not many
>> here are much at putting together pretty pictures and those that are
>> may already have a set they are working on.
>
>I didn't ask becuase I wanted to be sure about the setting and plot of
>the demo module first.
Well, for building a library, any image someone cares to make is good,
and if the image is there it may inspire someone to find a way to use
it. And if someone wants, say, a pirate game, contributing a couple of
dozen pirate images and some wooden ship wall/floor tiles would
greatly increase the chance someone would go ahead and make an
H-World: Piracy module. With the graphical display, H-World offers
artists a chance to mold development.
>Sheep once asked me what images I need. I didn't really know what to
>answer, because I didn't know if I want to keep the jungle idea or
>rather start another scenario.
Let artists know if there is an area you would like more images (say,
if you were developing Jungle, you could always use more plants,
monkeys, birds, snakes, and bugs), but also let them know there is a
need for library tiles, especially generic tiles for popular genres,
but room for anything someone wants to offer. And sets of images on a
theme would encourage development of a game using that theme (or at
least a level or dungeon branch on that theme). If someone contributes
two dozen different images (counting floor/inventory/overlay for items
as one image) on a theme.
>I think first I need a plan what to do. Then I can look for help doing it.
I think that's unnecessary. If someone is willing to make a large set
of espionage images, make an espionage game. If someone contributes a
bunch of teddy bears, ponies and candy images, make a little game
about the war between the teddy bears and ponies for control of the
candy mines. If you had a clear vision of the game you wanted to
create, I'd say stick with it, but since you are unsure, make things
easy on yourself and if you can get a set of images, use them.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
ABCGi
Yeah, I was trying to hack the graphics into a 2D mode, but that will be
a lot easier - thank you. I will definitely use it. Indeed that might
be a good time to get back into Beyond H-World when you release this
engine functionality. The only other major thing needed (now that
missiles seem to be coming along) is magic.
BHW could ship as an additional module at a certain point, thus demoing
a 2D module as well as iso.
--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>> [Plain 2D display]
>>
>> I've implemented a first version this weekend. Game modules now can
>> choose plain 2D display and isometric display.
>>
>> I'll probably not spend time to create a 2D demo module (particularly
>> becuase I don't have proper wall images), but ABCGi once said he'd
>> like to use 2D display for "Beyond H-World" ?
>
> Yeah, I was trying to hack the graphics into a 2D mode, but that will be
> a lot easier - thank you. I will definitely use it.
>
> Indeed that might
> be a good time to get back into Beyond H-World when you release this
> engine functionality.
I can compile a new release within the next two days, if you want. I
don't know if I'll have time this evening, but I can try.
> The only other major thing needed (now that
> missiles seem to be coming along) is magic.
Maybe you can write a short specification how magic is supposed to work
in "Beyond H-World"? I'll then try to design and implement the needed
functionality.
> BHW could ship as an additional module at a certain point, thus demoing
> a 2D module as well as iso.
Yes, that seems to be a god idea :)
c.u.
Hajo
ABCGi
> In article <416f8451$0$77012$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>, ab...@yahoo.com
> says...
>
>>He may have a point about the current state of an isometric world with
>>effectively 2D characters drawn on them, not aligned to the isometric
>>direction. This has caused confusion in the past to players trying to
>>judge distance etc. That is one reason I planned to make the Beyond
>>H-World mod 2D with smaller grid size or smaller beings.
>
> I think the H-World graphics are not too bad. They are vastly superior
> to Falcon's Eye in my view. Perhaps because they are NOT isometric?
I agree. I spose rotating the 2D pics in The Jungle now by 45 degrees
(to get the right direction) would just look crappy. But since the
characters face along the NSEW axis mayhap the tiles should do so too -
this was my idea for the Beyond H-World module anyway.
ABCGi
> David Damerell wrote::
>> Hansjoerg Malthaner <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>>> Björn Bergström wrote::
>>>
>>>>> I'm not quite sure what to do with the humans. To use a photo of a
>>>>> real person, I need the agreement of the person. I could ask my
>>>>> family members :)
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't this make the humanoids stand out even more?
>>>
>>> I can't say. But it isn't really an option, it was rather kind of a
>>> joke.
>>
>> I'm sure some rgrd readers would be willing to send your photographs.
>> Some might even be LRPers with access to funny costumes.
>
> Erm ... you know that the base character images are almost naked? The
> dresses are images overlays that H-World dynamically draws over the base
> images according to the equipment of the characters :)
Each member of RGRD could be a unique in the game. Or a new module could
be penthouse pets attacked with a "whip of strip poker".
> This also means all base images need the same pose, otherwise the
> overlays don't fit.
>
> ABCGi, Sheep and I had some discussions about a reasonable generic pose
> that fits to most situations in the game, but it ended without a real
> decision.
Having a common generic pose would assist in reusing items between
modules. My PC sizes are smaller than The Jungle, in which case I
generally shrink The Jungle items that I want to reuse and/or change the
offsets too.
> Also, now that a good number of overlays for the first chosen pose
> exists, changing the base pose probably means to spend a lot of time
> adapting the existing or painting new overlays.
My general thinking is that new module should ideally use all new
thingies anyway if time permits, however quicker modules within the same
game world of The Jungle (or whichever module) should also be
attractive. Bit like writing a quick extension module to NeverWinter Nights.
> I think I should not try to use digitized photos in this case. But it is
> more of a feeling than a rational decision.
Yeah a fully photographic style game could be another module entirely,
starring Michael Moore, George Bush, Winston Churchill, Ben Stiller,
Randy Quaid etc
ABCGi
Especially for a free game with editable engine built by one guy. I'd
rather not too high a proportion of time be spent on graphics, since the
modder can write their own module with as high a quality graphics as
they like. Sheep has contributed to The Jungle and also some great
images to my mod Beyond H-World, with the others done by Hajo, so you're
looking at a two man team busy doing other things at the same time.
ABCGi
I agree, I think the important thing is that the engine is capable of
some animation, one or two examples in the demo module should suffice
for module writers to create their own.
ABCGi
Rather than 2D tiles (ala Nethack etc) Beyond H-World looks like a
smaller version of The Jungle on a 2D grid, however with most characters
no bigger than a square. They are bigger than regular tiles and in
perspective when related to each other. This looks as pretty as The
Jungle without the iso-metric directions.
However, just looking at Iso-Angband (also be Hajo) shows how nice and
logical an Iso game can look. I love Sheep's graphics, he is a talented
artist.
> I'd then listen to them and code what they need, or at least try to find
> a compromise solution.
>
>> But without a library to give a game a start, the graphics hurdle is
>> just too high for most would-be game-makers.
>
> That's most likely true.
--
The Sheep
> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>> David Damerell wrote::
>>> Hansjoerg Malthaner <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>>>> Björn Bergström wrote::
> be penthouse pets attacked with a "whip of strip poker".
I guess the face will be a separate overlay, so every module
maker can use his own photo :)
ABCGi
> Dnia Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:31:22 +1000, ABCGi napisal(a):
>
>>Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>>
>>>David Damerell wrote::
>>>
>>>>Hansjoerg Malthaner <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Björn Bergström wrote::
>>
>>Each member of RGRD could be a unique in the game. Or a new module could
>>be penthouse pets attacked with a "whip of strip poker".
>
> I guess the face will be a separate overlay, so every module
> maker can use his own photo :)
Good idea :)
ABCGi
> ABCGi wrote::
>
>> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>
>>> [Plain 2D display]
>>>
>>> I've implemented a first version this weekend. Game modules now can
>>> choose plain 2D display and isometric display.
>>>
>>> I'll probably not spend time to create a 2D demo module (particularly
>>> becuase I don't have proper wall images), but ABCGi once said he'd
>>> like to use 2D display for "Beyond H-World" ?
>>
>> Yeah, I was trying to hack the graphics into a 2D mode, but that will
>> be a lot easier - thank you. I will definitely use it.
>
>> Indeed that might
>> be a good time to get back into Beyond H-World when you release this
>> engine functionality.
>
> I can compile a new release within the next two days, if you want. I
> don't know if I'll have time this evening, but I can try.
I'm not in that much of a hurry :) I can wait for a nice stable release.
>> The only other major thing needed (now that
>> missiles seem to be coming along) is magic.
>
> Maybe you can write a short specification how magic is supposed to work
> in "Beyond H-World"? I'll then try to design and implement the needed
> functionality.
What I recall from the Beyond specs is that it is pretty much a direct
rip off of ideas from ADoM/NetHack/Angband. Power points (mana), magic
resistance, spell learning, spell classes and so forth. Spell
memorization would not be necessary, only learnt spells can be cast (but
as many times as power points allow), and spells can only be learnt if
you are of an equal or higher class than the spell. Spellbooks act as a
back up if one forgets a spell (eg reads a scroll of amnesia, suffers an
effect from a mind blast spell), so that they can be relearnt, and if
possible (but optional functionality) the learnt spells would decay over
time and non-use, and increase in efficiency with use (like weapon
skills). Scrolls/potions would exist for each spell which present an
easier way for any character with some magic to cast.
Basically if the ADoM and/or Angband magic systems are able to be
resembled then I'll be happy. To start with a pretty straight forward
magic system is fine.
I always imagined Magic would be a special kind of skill tree, which
would be given to starting Wizards and not given to Warriors. Games that
support multiple magic systems (magic, psionics, elementalism, bards,
druids etc) are pretty cool and I would imagine a flexible magic system
capable of these (in the long term) would be a strength of H-World.
In terms of an engine for spells the idea was for each spell to be
specified by a collection of effects, such as loss of hit points (and
chance of effect, and dice roll for damage). It seems the lua scripting
could pretty well implement these compound effects (ie fireball =
damage, fire, light and area of effect).
http://codemonkey.sunsite.dk/projects/beyond/C3_RULEBOOK.htm#RULES.MagicandEffects
>> BHW could ship as an additional module at a certain point, thus
>> demoing a 2D module as well as iso.
>
> Yes, that seems to be a god idea :)
Great!
ABCGi
Also a couple of H-World forum posts relating to possible magic systems;
Magic in H-World
http://www.simugraph.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5&t_id=20
Beyond: Magic
http://www.simugraph.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=9&t_id=19
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>>>> [Plain 2D display]
>> I can compile a new release within the next two days, if you want. I
>> don't know if I'll have time this evening, but I can try.
>
> I'm not in that much of a hurry :) I can wait for a nice stable release.
Ok. Depending on the progress with the "use by mouse click" interface
I'll release a new version next weekend or the weekend thereafter.
>>> The only other major thing needed (now that
>>> missiles seem to be coming along) is magic.
>>
>> Maybe you can write a short specification how magic is supposed to
>> work in "Beyond H-World"? I'll then try to design and implement the
>> needed functionality.
>
> What I recall from the Beyond specs is that it is pretty much a direct
> rip off of ideas from ADoM/NetHack/Angband. Power points (mana), magic
> resistance, spell learning, spell classes and so forth. Spell
> memorization would not be necessary, only learnt spells can be cast (but
> as many times as power points allow), and spells can only be learnt if
> you are of an equal or higher class than the spell. Spellbooks act as a
> back up if one forgets a spell (eg reads a scroll of amnesia, suffers an
> effect from a mind blast spell), so that they can be relearnt, and if
> possible (but optional functionality) the learnt spells would decay over
> time and non-use, and increase in efficiency with use (like weapon
> skills). Scrolls/potions would exist for each spell which present an
> easier way for any character with some magic to cast.
I'm mostly concerned about the UI. Beings in H-World have a memory, you
can access it (read/write) from lua scripts. So learning spells should
be doable already, the exact mechanics will have to be part of the Lua
scripts.
Currently (development post 0.3.11.1) the only kind of UI that Lua
scripts can trigger are requesters that have a title, a message and up
to 16 buttons to choose from a selection.
> I always imagined Magic would be a special kind of skill tree, which
> would be given to starting Wizards and not given to Warriors. Games that
> support multiple magic systems (magic, psionics, elementalism, bards,
> druids etc) are pretty cool and I would imagine a flexible magic system
> capable of these (in the long term) would be a strength of H-World.
Suchlike decisions should be done outside the engine, in the modules
scripts. One module might prefer a tree, another a plain list of spells.
The engine can't know this, so the scripts will have to take care.
If the engine misses interfaces to store the data or something like
that, please let me know and I'm sure we'll find a solution.
> In terms of an engine for spells the idea was for each spell to be
> specified by a collection of effects, such as loss of hit points (and
> chance of effect, and dice roll for damage). It seems the lua scripting
> could pretty well implement these compound effects (ie fireball =
> damage, fire, light and area of effect).
>
> http://codemonkey.sunsite.dk/projects/beyond/C3_RULEBOOK.htm#RULES.MagicandEffects
Yes, this will have to be coded in the modules Lua scripts. The engine
should stay generic, e.g. allow access to the map, the items and beings
and their attributes, but the effects of spells must be defined as part
of the modules scripts.
>>> BHW could ship as an additional module at a certain point, thus
>>> demoing a 2D module as well as iso.
>>
>> Yes, that seems to be a god idea :)
>
> Great!
I'm looking forward to a new step in "Beyond H-World" :)
c.u.
Hajo
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> ABCGi wrote:
>> http://codemonkey.sunsite.dk/projects/beyond/C3_RULEBOOK.htm#RULES.MagicandEffects
>
> Also a couple of H-World forum posts relating to possible magic systems;
>
> Magic in H-World
> http://www.simugraph.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5&t_id=20
>
> Beyond: Magic
> http://www.simugraph.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=9&t_id=19
The biggest question is the UI, I think. How to present known spells to
the user? How to select or compose spells?
I think we need to start somewhere. I'm willing to implement the needed
UI for Beyond, even if later on more generic approaches must be found.
If you want to code (parts of) the UI by yourself, just let me know and
I'll send you a source code update.
c.u.
Hajo
R. Dan Henry
<hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>The biggest question is the UI, I think. How to present known spells to
>the user? How to select or compose spells?
Bring up a menu, with letters for keyboard selection and the option to
click on the desired spell with the mouse.
It would be nice to allow a module designer to include little icons in
this menu, so one could have a little icon representing each spell or
spell type or other feature. Also, being able to change the way the
list of spells is sorted would be helpful: I can think of reason to
want to sort alphabetically by name (easiest way to find a spell by
name), by spell level, or by spell type (grouping attack spells
together lets you review your offensive options conveniently).
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
The Sheep
Or allow separate `tabs', like spellbook in `Heroes of Might and Magic 2'.
ABCGi
> Dnia Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:05:29 -0700, R Dan Henry napisal(a):
>
>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:42:12 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner
>><hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>>
>>>The biggest question is the UI, I think. How to present known spells to
>>>the user? How to select or compose spells?
>>
>>Bring up a menu, with letters for keyboard selection and the option to
>>click on the desired spell with the mouse.
>>
>>It would be nice to allow a module designer to include little icons in
>>this menu, so one could have a little icon representing each spell or
>>spell type or other feature. Also, being able to change the way the
>>list of spells is sorted would be helpful: I can think of reason to
>>want to sort alphabetically by name (easiest way to find a spell by
>>name), by spell level, or by spell type (grouping attack spells
>>together lets you review your offensive options conveniently).
>
> Or allow separate `tabs', like spellbook in `Heroes of Might and Magic 2'.
These certainly sound good, I want an interface that can be driven
solely by keyboard once one learns the right keys, for experts who
prefer the pure RL approach. Also being able to drive it by mouse would
be good for beginners or those that prefer mouse to keyboard.
* 'z' brings up known spell list window (those that you don't have
enough power points for are greyed out)
* shortcut key can cast spell (or mouse)
* select target of spell if necessary
* reading a spell book adds a spell to the spell list, chance that the
spell book disappears
That's all I need for starters, plus the usual spells, which I imagine
will be effects coded with lua.
--
ABCGi - current fav RL's in dev: H-World, Dweller mobile
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> The Sheep wrote:
>
>> Dnia Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:05:29 -0700, R Dan Henry napisal(a):
>>
>>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:42:12 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner
>>> <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The biggest question is the UI, I think. How to present known spells
>>>> to the user? How to select or compose spells?
> These certainly sound good, I want an interface that can be driven
> solely by keyboard once one learns the right keys, for experts who
> prefer the pure RL approach. Also being able to drive it by mouse would
> be good for beginners or those that prefer mouse to keyboard.
>
> * 'z' brings up known spell list window (those that you don't have
> enough power points for are greyed out)
> * shortcut key can cast spell (or mouse)
> * select target of spell if necessary
> * reading a spell book adds a spell to the spell list, chance that the
> spell book disappears
User defined commands go into commands.lua
The check for the "z" kepress will be there (= module makers can choose
their own keys)
I'll take care that the UI can be keyboard and mouse controlled.
Selecting a target will be part of the Lua scripts after the spell UI
returns the users selection.
Questions:
- How does the UI get the list of spells to display?
- How can the UI check which spells the PC may cast? "Powerpoints" seem
to be a module specific value.
c.u.
Hajo
ABCGi
> ABCGi wrote::
>> The Sheep wrote:
>>> Dnia Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:05:29 -0700, R Dan Henry napisal(a):
>>>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:42:12 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner
>>>> <hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The biggest question is the UI, I think. How to present known
>>>>> spells to the user? How to select or compose spells?
>
>> These certainly sound good, I want an interface that can be driven
>> solely by keyboard once one learns the right keys, for experts who
>> prefer the pure RL approach. Also being able to drive it by mouse
>> would be good for beginners or those that prefer mouse to keyboard.
>>
>> * 'z' brings up known spell list window (those that you don't have
>> enough power points for are greyed out)
>> * shortcut key can cast spell (or mouse)
>> * select target of spell if necessary
>> * reading a spell book adds a spell to the spell list, chance that the
>> spell book disappears
>
> User defined commands go into commands.lua
> The check for the "z" kepress will be there (= module makers can choose
> their own keys)
Good, understood.
> I'll take care that the UI can be keyboard and mouse controlled.
> Selecting a target will be part of the Lua scripts after the spell UI
> returns the users selection.
Sounds good also.
> Questions:
>
> - How does the UI get the list of spells to display?
Good question, not sure where/how to store list of known spells?
This brings to mind one idea might be to include a spell book on the
inventory screen, or a separate spell book screen that is like the
inventory screen, that combines the storing and casting of spells. Each
spell is an icon style item you can pick up and move into your spell
book (thus "learning it") and it can then be cast from there? The number
of available "active" slots might relate to the PC's spell casting
level, and there is a chance a spell item will be exhausted upon use.
Then the spell book becomes much like the inventory screen? It's a bit
Dungeon Seigey I know, but icon's could be used as scrolls for those
without spellbooks/spell casting?
Anyway just an idea.
> - How can the UI check which spells the PC may cast? "Powerpoints" seem
> to be a module specific value.
I guess we could leave it to the lua script to say spell failed if the
PC does not have enough mana/powerpoints whatever?
The Sheep
How about just giving a lua function to display such a menu, and leave
the rest for lua scripts?
That is, a lua script would prepare the list of spells, mark which
one of them are grayed, call the displaying function, get it's
output and proceed to call the spell's script.
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
>
>> ABCGi wrote::
>> Questions:
>>
>> - How does the UI get the list of spells to display?
>
> Good question, not sure where/how to store list of known spells?
We can have three factory involved
1) PC attributes
2) PC memory
3) Lua function to determine the spell list based on (1), (2) and maybe
a module-defined list of spells.
> This brings to mind one idea might be to include a spell book on the
> inventory screen, or a separate spell book screen that is like the
> inventory screen, that combines the storing and casting of spells.
Yes, that's why I was asking about the UI. There are a lot of options. I
think we should try to find a somewhat generic solution, that fits to a
larger number of spell systems.
The other approach was to let Lua script define windows and controls. We
talked about the problems already, but if we can find a generic
interface that the engine provides, we'll have to try this path and let
the engine only provide a generic UI component interface and the module
develper will have to use that to create the UIs.
Actually the latter approach has a lot of benefits, becuase it allows
number of module-specific UIs for all kinds of things not just magic.
> Each
> spell is an icon style item you can pick up and move into your spell
> book (thus "learning it") and it can then be cast from there? The number
> of available "active" slots might relate to the PC's spell casting
> level, and there is a chance a spell item will be exhausted upon use.
> Then the spell book becomes much like the inventory screen? It's a bit
> Dungeon Seigey I know, but icon's could be used as scrolls for those
> without spellbooks/spell casting?
>
> Anyway just an idea.
In this case, I think creating a generic interface between Lua and the
UI components is the way to go. This seems to specific to be part of the
engine.
>> - How can the UI check which spells the PC may cast? "Powerpoints"
>> seem to be a module specific value.
>
> I guess we could leave it to the lua script to say spell failed if the
> PC does not have enough mana/powerpoints whatever?
Ok. I was asking because you original request mentioned greying out
speels that cannot be cast becuase of insufficient powerpoints, and I
was looking for a more generic solution.
c.u.
Hajo
Hansjoerg Malthaner
> Dnia Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:48:29 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner napisal(a):
>
>>ABCGi wrote::
>>
>>>The Sheep wrote:
>>>
>>>>Dnia Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:05:29 -0700, R Dan Henry napisal(a):
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:42:12 +0200, Hansjoerg Malthaner
>>>>><hansjoerg...@nurfuerspam.de> wrote:
>>
>>Questions:
>>
>>- How does the UI get the list of spells to display?
>>- How can the UI check which spells the PC may cast? "Powerpoints" seem
>>to be a module specific value.
>
> How about just giving a lua function to display such a menu, and leave
> the rest for lua scripts?
One function won't suffice, I think. I guess (if we try that, I'm not
really keen on it because it's a lot of work) the interface will look
like theis
----
frame = ui_new_frame("Spell list", 100, 100, 400, 300)
ui_add_button(frame, "o : OK", 200, 200)
ui_add_button(frame, "c : Cancel", 300, 200)
while (more_spells) do
local hotkey = ...
local label = ...
local xoff = ...
local yoff = ...
ui_add_button(frame, hotkey .. " : " .. label, yoff, xoff)
end
local result = ui_show_frame(frame)
----
E.g. there will be functions needed for each type of UI element, I
guess. OTOH this is very generic and allows all kind of user-defined
UIs. Maybe it has to be done anyways?
c.u.
Hajo
Jeff Lait
> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:19:23 +0200, "copx" <inv...@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
> >It's much easier to create OKish 2D tiles.
>
> There are also existing 2D tiles which are free to use, either
> completely free or just asking for acknowledgement. Which is, frankly,
> what I'd have to do. Maybe modify some of them, but even OKish looking
> tiles aren't something everyone can do without a good deal of time
> invested.
Using existing 2d tile sets is very hard, however. The trouble is
that they lead you to create items or creatures which match the
existing tiles, rather than creating items and creatures you want to
create. You end up discarding development paths because you don't
have the art for it, rather than giving your project a free reign.
You can always try and create your own tiles for your unique items.
However, art must be, above all, consistent. If you are a poor pixel
artist like me, your unique additions will stand out like sore thumbs.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
Jeff Lait
> [huge snip]
>
> > The game is still effectively in a beta stage since you keep adding new
> > functionality, which is good because there are still some more things it
> > needs.
>
> If he's still adding features, that makes the "game" alpha, not beta. Beta
> stage is when all features are in and bug fixes and gameplay tweaking are
> the large majority of effort.
So Nethack is still in Alpha then, eh?
ABCGi
ABCGi
I think I can work with any of those solutions, the magic in Beyond
H-World is going to be pretty stock standard, and can even remain pretty
simple. At it's most complex it's something like Crawl's magic. So I'd
say design it to suit your constraints and needs and I can work with it.
I've been a bit out of H-World editing for a while so none of it is too
fresh in my mind :(