Market for graphical roguelike?
ant...@gmail.com
just recently found this newsgroup, I have not yet had the time to
search for it (my bad). Still, I was wondering whether there is a
potential market for a shareware graphical roguelike? Or do all the
roguelike fans prefer free and opensource stuff.
Gamer_2k4
> I realize that this topic must have come up at some point, and as I
> just recently found this newsgroup, I have not yet had the time to
> search for it (my bad). Still, I was wondering whether there is a
> potential market for a shareware graphical roguelike?
Yes...It's called Diablo.
ASCII isn't as important as you might think. This often comes up
during 7DRL competitions, where people sometimes make Zelda or
Starcraft clones, except in ASCII. That's not really a roguelike,
IMO. The key to a roguelike is randomness and replayability. I
imagine if someone turned ADOM into a third person game, loads of
people would play it.
Gamer_2k4
Slash
> On Mar 15, 10:48 am, antl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I realize that this topic must have come up at some point, and as I
> > just recently found this newsgroup, I have not yet had the time to
> > search for it (my bad). Still, I was wondering whether there is a
> > potential market for a shareware graphical roguelike?
>
> Yes...It's called Diablo.
>
> ....where people sometimes make Zelda or
> Starcraft clones, except in ASCII.
Do they? I haven't seen these :P
SNIP
>
> Gamer_2k4
--
Slash
Castlevania, Drash and Metroid Roguelikes
The Villa of Darkness [ http://www.santiagoz.com/web ]
Slash
There's UnrealWorld, a shareware graphical roguelike. (not
"professional" graphics, if you get what I mean), it comes from a long
time, (I think it comes from the medieval times on Finland), anyhow...
Yes, I think there is a market, but it's not easy... with big projects
around as freeware, you would have to have a. a super cool idea,
implemented fully in a project and b. enough eye candy (i.e. a
professional artist behind you) to make people pay for it...
Just my quickly posted thoughts :P
Gerry Quinn
game...@gmail.com says...
> On Mar 15, 10:48 am, antl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I realize that this topic must have come up at some point, and as I
> > just recently found this newsgroup, I have not yet had the time to
> > search for it (my bad). Still, I was wondering whether there is a
> > potential market for a shareware graphical roguelike?
>
> Yes...It's called Diablo.
Or the less ambitions but reasonably successful Fate.
Of course Diablo and Fate are real-time. But if you cross over into
CRPGs, the turn-based Spiderweb Software games remain reasonably
popular.
Finally, something more old-school might work on telephones etc.
- Gerry Quinn
David Damerell
>I realize that this topic must have come up at some point, and as I
>just recently found this newsgroup, I have not yet had the time to
>search for it (my bad). Still, I was wondering whether there is a
>potential market for a shareware graphical roguelike?
No, would be the short answer. On the one hand, you have games with very
interesting gameplay available for free. On the other hand, you have games
looking better than you can possibly manage as a single freelance
programmer available for - what, these days Diablo II's going to go for
five quid or so?
I don't really see a niche there.
--
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e_pet,catname:Akane,dogname:Ryoga,fruit:okonomiyaki,pickup_types:"!$?=/,scores:
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Krice
> There's UnrealWorld, a shareware graphical roguelike.
Creators of URW must be stupidest people on earth. It's
just not reasonable to make that kind of game shareware.
I guess they get SOME money out of it. SOME people try to
make money from ANYTHING...
grr..
Gamer_2k4
> > Starcraft clones, except in ASCII.
>
> Do they? I haven't seen these :P
Well, SCRL is being made this year, and I think Krice had a go at
ZeldaRL a while back.
Gamer_2k4
Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd
Others have thought this before you. Besides what has already been mentioned,
cf. Castle of the Winds...which has been freewared a decade later.
I've been casually thinking about this, and if you have a good art team (big if)
and know how to track relative effort (even bigger if) you could make money as
open-source freeware. The game has to be art-bloated enough to make shipping
CD-R competitive against download time, so it's tempting to use
unlimited-bandwidth hosting.
capmango
As an author of a few shareware games and several commercial games,
here is what I have learned from my experience:
If you write a really cool shareware game (of any ilk), lots and lots
and lots of people will download it and play it.
Two of those people will send you a check.
One of them will be your mom.
If your game runs on a mac, the other check will be from Woz. You
won't cash it, because it's really cool to have a check signed "Woz".
-Glenn
author of graphical shareware games "Mombasa" and "Toxic Ravine"
John Doe
>
> One of them will be your mom.
>
> If your game runs on a mac, the other check will be from Woz. You
> won't cash it, because it's really cool to have a check signed "Woz".
Haha, thanks for this nice warning. Yes, I totally agree. I think there
is a market for a roguelike - but you need to make it contemporary: 3D,
fancy gfx, sfx... There's a lot of artistic work - unless you are a
genius you wont be able to do it all on your own.
Berendol
Well, I don't have money to spend on games right now... when I do, if I'm gonna
spend money, it better be a really good game. Roguelikes just don't seem like
the kind of game I would spend money on, although adding well-done multimedia
features like professionally mastered sound, simple control, animation, sprites
and semi- or fully-realtime gameplay may cause me to consider it. Note that I
did *not* say anything about 3D! I prefer 2D over 3D and "isometric" stuff to be
honest. I purchased some classic Nintendo games for around $5 recently, and
eBayed the entire SNES Final Fantasy game collection for $60. That's about what
your stuff has to compete with to get my attention. Since you asked :)
It doesn't have to be open source to be free. Public domain things are always
appreciated. But, we'd appreciate open source (which implies free) more than
free binaries, because when you stop work, someone else can continue it. And it
makes it easier for developers like myself to figure out how you did the cool
stuff.
There's my two cents.
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski
ant...@gmail.com wrote:
There is a number of graphical, commercial, more-or-less-roguelike games,
espacially for consoles. It's usually a "standard" action-rpg game (the
kind popular for consoles) with one or several dungeons that are
"roguelike".
There are several "true" roguelike games for consoles that were pretty
successful: Furai No Siren (1 and 2) for Game Boy, SNES, Playstation and
even PC; Lufia 3 for Game Boy; Azure Dreams for Game Boy; Tales Of
Phantasia - Narikiri Dungeon for Game Boy; Golden Sun for Game Boy Advance,
Summon Nights for Game Boy Advance.
They often incorporate certain "hit" features, like card collecting,
monster breeding, weapon crafting, etc. They also usually incorporate at
least simple plot.
--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski
Find hungry samurai.
Christophe Cavalaria
> At 15 Mar 2007 08:48:35 -0700,
> ant...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I realize that this topic must have come up at some point, and as I
>> just recently found this newsgroup, I have not yet had the time to
>> search for it (my bad). Still, I was wondering whether there is a
>> potential market for a shareware graphical roguelike? Or do all the
>> roguelike fans prefer free and opensource stuff.
>
> There is a number of graphical, commercial, more-or-less-roguelike games,
> espacially for consoles. It's usually a "standard" action-rpg game (the
> kind popular for consoles) with one or several dungeons that are
> "roguelike".
>
> There are several "true" roguelike games for consoles that were pretty
> successful: (...) Golden Sun for Game Boy Advance
Uh? If Golden Sun is a "true" roguelike, then all and every japanese RPG
ever produced is a "true" roguelike too. Not that the game is bad though ;)
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski
Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
I mean the version for Game Boy Advance. Maybe it has some additional
subtitle that I missed -- I will check when I'm home in several days.
Or maybe my first judgements about the game are false and it's not as
random as I assumed...
Actually, Summon Nights is also not very random -- only the monsters and
items are randomised, the maps stay the same. Maybe it's the "explore-shop
cycle" similar to *bands that made me think it's rogue-like?
Christophe Cavalaria
> At Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:05:29 +0100,
> Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
>
>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>>> At 15 Mar 2007 08:48:35 -0700,
>>> ant...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> There are several "true" roguelike games for consoles that were pretty
>>> successful: (...) Golden Sun for Game Boy Advance
>
>> Uh? If Golden Sun is a "true" roguelike, then all and every japanese RPG
>> ever produced is a "true" roguelike too. Not that the game is bad though
>> ;)
>
> I mean the version for Game Boy Advance. Maybe it has some additional
> subtitle that I missed -- I will check when I'm home in several days.
Unfortunately, there is only a Gameboy Advance version ( and it's sequel )
although I'm sure there is a horde of rabbid fans constantly pestering the
authors for a Nintendo DS version or something.
> Or maybe my first judgements about the game are false and it's not as
> random as I assumed...
As with many console RPGs, the game is completly non random except for item
drops, random item crafting and monster encounters.
> Actually, Summon Nights is also not very random -- only the monsters and
> items are randomised, the maps stay the same. Maybe it's the "explore-shop
> cycle" similar to *bands that made me think it's rogue-like?
No idea. Although I knew of Narikiri Dungeon, I've never played any other
game you've mentionned. I'll just add what can only be considered as a true
true console roguelike game. I've played and finished before so I'm sure on
that one: http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/sms/dragoncrystal/
Random dungeons, monsters and drops. Go forward and never go backward
dungeon. Turn based. Permadeath. Food based counter. Cursed scrolls and
items that can destroy your equipment, etc...
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski
Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> [...] Although I knew of Narikiri Dungeon, I've never played any other
> game you've mentionned.
Well, the "Furai No Siren" games are more or less clones of NetHack, with
added animated graphics, different monsters and some original ideas. The
levels are not persistent.
There were some similar games by the same company, ChunSoft.
The Lufia 3 is basically similar to other Lufias, only all the dungeons
are random -- however you have a plot -- you explore the dungeons and
"unlock" next ones.
"Azure Dreams" is your basic Pokemon clone, with monster breading and the
monsters fighting for you. The dungeon (tower, actually) is randomized
every time you enter it, and your level is also reset each time.
> I'll just add what can only be considered as a true
> true console roguelike game. I've played and finished before so I'm sure on
> that one: http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/sms/dragoncrystal/
Oh, wow, I didn't know this one, thanks.
Jeff Lait
> Golden Sun for Game Boy Advance,
Objection your honour!
When developing POWDER, a roguelike for the gameboy advance, I used
Zelda as inspiration for how to move to the platform. I used Golden
Sun as a case lesson in how a roguelike should not be. Indeed, when I
went to play the sequel to Golden Sun after playing POWDER for a year
or so, I was unable to play the game because it was so painfully
designed.
Golden Sun is a plot driven game where you mindlessly grind things in
order to get the reward: an advancement in the plot.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
Mario Donick
> game you've mentionned. I'll just add what can only be considered as a
> true true console roguelike game. I've played and finished before so I'm
> sure on that one: http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/sms/dragoncrystal/
>
> Random dungeons, monsters and drops. Go forward and never go backward
> dungeon. Turn based. Permadeath. Food based counter. Cursed scrolls and
> items that can destroy your equipment, etc...
Yeah, I owned that game in the past. I was never aware that this was a
roguelike until I stumbled upon PC roguelikes. I then saw that game with
totally other eyes. When I played it, for me it lacked a plot, i thought
how silly it would be to make a game with random levels/items and a game in
which death is permanent. I mostly died from starving and just thought how
silly it is to have to eat in a game.
Interesting how thinking is changing over the years ;)
(Anyway, Dragon Crystal had really ugly graphics (the colors ... eeek..) and
most annoying part was the music which never seemed to change). And you
could not stop the game; once started you had to finish it, otherwise you
weren't able to continue. Nearly impossible to beat it.
=)
Mario
--
LambdaRogue: http://donick.net/lambdarogue.html
- news, documentation, behind the scenes and downloads
ant...@gmail.com
was made before wheels were invented.
Howabout DEMISE-Rise of the Ku'tan at http://decklinsdemise.com/screenshots.php?
Does that sort of thing grab anybody's attention? The 3d graphics
aren't exactly easy on my eyes (and personally I'd much prefer a 2d
approach with prettier gfx instead of poor 3d gfx), but the developer
definitely seems like he's progressed since the days of Mordor 1.1.
But yes, Gamespot gave it a terrible review and I believe them.
I am not exactly a roguelike vet, and correct me if I'm wrong or
missed something, but the
appeal of roguelikes seems to me to be:
1. Randomly generated environments -> superior replay value
2. Large quantity of different kinds of items/monsters -> lots of
choices, new things to see and try
3. Intricate rules or mechanics -> you can knock the door down, you
can quaff the potion, throw the rock (or even your food rations), etc.
lots of options for any game situation. i remember in one game
(probably one of the old nethacks?) I would find shopkeepers in random
rooms in the dungeon, with their items strewn about the ground. if i
approached the wrong kind of armor or w/e (i think the symbol was
backwards), it would be a mimic and end up killing me. alternatively,
i could try and kill the shopkeeper with a wand or get my dog to steal
shop items. that sorta rich gameplay.
I've definitely played my share of Diablo (not as much of Diablo 2, I
got bored). I
think what captured me (and perhaps many ppl) was finding items.
Magical items with properties based on randomly generated prefixes and
suffixes, a large collection of uniques, and (in diablo 2) crafted
items + set items. wow, you could even throw gems and runes into your
socketed items: so many items! there were lots of monsters too
(although most were just subtypes of a large handful of general
types), and nicer gfx than any other similar game i've ever seen.
still, I don't think Diablo offered the more intricate gameplay that
roguelikes were known for (true, there're a lotta diff spells, but
they just kill or shield, they don't blow down walls or destroy parts
of the dungeon).
another set of games that come to mind are: Baldur's Gate series,
Icewind Dale series, Planescape: Torment, (haven't personally tried
Neverwinter Nights series). These lacked randomly-generated
environments, but their detailed and thoughtful plots/stories were a
huge plus. Also, they had nice gfx/sound/music, a good helping of
monsters, and a variety of rules/mechanics ingame.
What is it about a roguelike that makes everyone a roguelike fan? What
are the most important aspects of making a roguelike? What aspects are
secondary?
ant...@gmail.com
Stories, are they important in a roguelike? Or were they just not a
dominant feature back in the day b/c they were too complex to
implement?
Gamer_2k4
> What is it about a roguelike that makes everyone a roguelike fan? What
> are the most important aspects of making a roguelike? What aspects are
> secondary?
Primary:
randomness
replayability
easy to learn, difficult to master
turn-based
fun
Secondary:
free
small file size
themed items, monsters, towns, etc. according to a plot
portable
music
You wouldn't think that music is key to having a good roguelike, since
not many have it. However, DoomRL, CastlevaniaRL, and Bone to be Wild
all have background music, and it really makes the game enjoyable.
Graphics. Are they important? ASCII is not a requirement for a
roguelike, and a game with an ASCII display is not necessarily one.
But graphics seriously detract from gameplay, IMO. Most tilesets are
too generic and aren't really that great. If you're using ASCII, you
see a D and think "Oh ****! What's the best way to deal with this? Is
it worth it to attack? Do I have sufficient hitpoints? Will my
spells work against it?" With tiles, the train of thought is more
like "Hmm...What IS that? Giraffe? Unicorn? Dragon? Hydra? Eh... Oh,
it's the dragon one." Not great gameplay if you ask me.
> Stories, are they important in a roguelike? Or were they just not a
> dominant feature back in the day b/c they were too complex to
> implement?
As the story becomes more intricate, the level of replayability and
randomness decreases. Sure, a story makes a game interesting.
However, it detracts from replayability, which is the essence of being
a roguelike.
Gamer_2k4
Mario Donick
> As the story becomes more intricate, the level of replayability and
> randomness decreases. Sure, a story makes a game interesting.
> However, it detracts from replayability, which is the essence of being
> a roguelike.
Ah, my favorite topic ... How would you (not only Gamer_2k4, but all) call a
game which has all primary and secondary aspects you mentioned, plus some
more, like ascii-interface, except endless replayability?
roguelike-like?
roguelike-inspired?
turn-based RPG with ascii-interface?
wannabee-roguelike?
"the-author-is-an-idiot-to-call-this-thing-roguelike"-game?
And, what I don't see since reading in this newsgroup: Why is it so damn
important if a game is roguelike or just highly-roguelike-inspired?
Christopher Brandt
Golden Sun doesn't belong to this list, but to answer the question, yes
there still is a big market for roguelikes.
http://www.compileheart.com/rogue/main.html <- This will be released
soon enough and many people make a fuzz of it. It's a remake of the
classical rogue and I think this answers the question good enough. I
posted this link in another thread but I guess it looked like somekind
of spam.
Christopher Brandt
ant...@gmail.com
> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski schrieb:
>
>
>
> > At 15 Mar 2007 08:48:35 -0700,
>
> >> I realize that this topic must have come up at some point, and as I
> >> just recently found this newsgroup, I have not yet had the time to
> >> search for it (my bad). Still, I was wondering whether there is a
> >> potential market for a shareware graphical roguelike? Or do all the
> >> roguelike fans prefer free and opensource stuff.
>
> > There is a number of graphical, commercial, more-or-less-roguelike games,
> > espacially for consoles. It's usually a "standard" action-rpg game (the
> > kind popular for consoles) with one or several dungeons that are
> > "roguelike".
>
> > There are several "true" roguelike games for consoles that were pretty
> > successful: Furai No Siren (1 and 2) for Game Boy, SNES, Playstation and
> > even PC; Lufia 3 for Game Boy; Azure Dreams for Game Boy; Tales Of
> > Phantasia - Narikiri Dungeon for Game Boy; Golden Sun for Game Boy Advance,
> > Summon Nights for Game Boy Advance.
>
> > They often incorporate certain "hit" features, like card collecting,
> > monster breeding, weapon crafting, etc. They also usually incorporate at
> > least simple plot.
>
> Golden Sun doesn't belong to this list, but to answer the question, yes
> soon enough and many people make a fuzz of it. It's a remake of the
> classical rogue and I think this answers the question good enough. I
> posted this link in another thread but I guess it looked like somekind
> of spam.
>
> Christopher Brandt
That looks really cool. VERY anime-ish. The pics weren't too big, but
I liked the style of the environment, not so much the monsters. Seems
like they also have one monster for every letter of the english
alphabet like the good old days? It was all I could do to decipher a
little of the katakana on their site.
Bongo Bill
A handful of Japanese companies seem to do fairly good business with
commercial roguelikes, which lately are becoming more and more
abundant on handhelds, They do tend to be more strictly Rogue-like
than, say, Diablo, aside from the fact that no successful commercial
developer has been able both to implement permadeath and to eliminate
savescumming - they tend to choose one or the other (almost invariably
they leave out permadeath), just as a concession to the fact that
people are playing these for light entertainment rather than a mental
exercise or personal challenge. In general they are quite a bit
lighter than your average homegrown Roguelike - the ways to die are
more predictable; there are fewer complex relationships between
objects; there's fewer and simpler character classes (if there are any
at all); they often don't bother with LOS, instead simply letting the
player see everything in a room and nothing in corridors; in general,
they're balanced a little more in favor of forgiveness and simplicity,
in order to keep them accessible. But they are turn-based, and they
are quite random, and they all seem to be very faithfully along the
Angband sort of paradigm. They're almost invariably marketed as
"Dungeon crawlers," which I suppose is more accurate than "RPG," and
frequently they have a successful RPG brand attached to them. And
they're still putting them out at a healthy pace; I put a review on
r.g.r.misc of one that seemed terribly unlikely to ever be released
outside of Japan (Izuna).
Seeing the state of commercial roguelike development in Japan really
makes me wonder what their development scene is like compared to,
well, r.g.r.* and friends.
Gerry Quinn
ant...@gmail.com says...
> I am not exactly a roguelike vet, and correct me if I'm wrong or
> missed something, but the
> appeal of roguelikes seems to me to be:
>
> 1. Randomly generated environments -> superior replay value
Yes.
> 2. Large quantity of different kinds of items/monsters -> lots of
> choices, new things to see and try
Yes.
> 3. Intricate rules or mechanics -> you can knock the door down, you
> can quaff the potion, throw the rock (or even your food rations), etc.
> lots of options for any game situation. i remember in one game
> (probably one of the old nethacks?) I would find shopkeepers in random
> rooms in the dungeon, with their items strewn about the ground. if i
> approached the wrong kind of armor or w/e (i think the symbol was
> backwards), it would be a mimic and end up killing me. alternatively,
> i could try and kill the shopkeeper with a wand or get my dog to steal
> shop items. that sorta rich gameplay.
'Intricate mechanics' is a NetHack thing more than a roguelike thing.
I would prefer to say 'interesting combat tactics' is the key element,
and it could be argued that intricate mechanics detract from that
rather than add to it. I think that games with transparent mechanics
that give good information to the player can make good roguelikes.
> What is it about a roguelike that makes everyone a roguelike fan? What
> are the most important aspects of making a roguelike? What aspects are
> secondary?
* Randomly generated environments
* Lots of monsters, items etc.
* Interesting combat tactics.
* Easy to pick up, long-ish steep-ish learning curve, very hard to win
* Little to do or remember that does not relate to combat / survival
(i.e. very little role-playing, extraneous quests, etc.)
Those are kind of 'defining characteristics'. What makes a roguelike
good is much more a matter of taste. The poster I'm responding to
(antlu65) includes 'intricate mechanics', so I guess he's a NetHack
fan. I don't care about that - I want transparent mechanics. Here are
some of the things I like, but I know that lots of people don't care
about them:
* Transparent mechanics
* Graphics (tiles are the minimum)
* Simple interface
* Starts hard and gets harder fast
* Balance is cruel but fair; game is winnable without spoilers
* Some sort of theme running through the game
Everyone will have their own list of things that make roguelikes good,
which will probably correlate with their preferences in roguelikes.
- Gerry Quinn
Gerry Quinn
ant...@gmail.com says...
Insofar as they add to the theme, they are nice. I don't think they
are important.
- Gerry Quinn
Gerry Quinn
mario....@googlemail.com says...
> Gamer_2k4 wrote:
>
> > As the story becomes more intricate, the level of replayability and
> > randomness decreases. Sure, a story makes a game interesting.
> > However, it detracts from replayability, which is the essence of being
> > a roguelike.
>
> Ah, my favorite topic ... How would you (not only Gamer_2k4, but all) call a
> game which has all primary and secondary aspects you mentioned, plus some
> more, like ascii-interface, except endless replayability?
I think some randomness is essential, or it's a pseudo-roguelike. How
much randomness you need is not fixed by law. For example, it may be
okay to have level maps stay the same if exploring the map is not too
important, and if items and monsters change between games.
If you don't have endless or near-endless replayability, you are
straying into CRPG territory. You'd better make sure the items found
on each level are optimally balanced for subsequent gameplay, because
the player won't be playing each level more than once or twice.
> roguelike-like?
> roguelike-inspired?
> turn-based RPG with ascii-interface?
> wannabee-roguelike?
> "the-author-is-an-idiot-to-call-this-thing-roguelike"-game?
>
> And, what I don't see since reading in this newsgroup: Why is it so damn
> important if a game is roguelike or just highly-roguelike-inspired?
I never said it was important, though if the game turns out to be
Tetris, it is off-topic in r.g.r.d. I don't think we'd turn away
somebody who was writing a CRPG, though. The two genres have a lot of
common ground.
- Gerry Quinn
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> At Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:05:29 +0100,
> Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
>> Uh? If Golden Sun is a "true" roguelike, then all and every japanese RPG
>> ever produced is a "true" roguelike too. Not that the game is bad though ;)
> I mean the version for Game Boy Advance. Maybe it has some additional
> subtitle that I missed -- I will check when I'm home in several days.
> Or maybe my first judgements about the game are false and it's not as
> random as I assumed...
Ok, I came home and checked. Obviously the game I meant was *not* Golden
Sun. It was Lufia 3 for Game Boy Advance, and a closer look at it reveals
no random maps -- so I was doubly mistaken. Lufia for Game Boy is totally
random, on the other hand.