Shockfrost memorial day

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copx

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Jan 4, 2003, 1:54:44 PM1/4/03
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Do we need something like that :)

Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz

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Jan 4, 2003, 4:17:49 PM1/4/03
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Użytkownik "copx" <inv...@dd.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:3e172ddd$0$5879$9b4e...@newsread2.arcor-online.net...

> Do we need something like that :)


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[for the non-ASCI literate -- ROTFL]
[for the non-you-snet-literate -- Rolling On The Floor Laughing]

;-))))))))))))))))))))))))))

regards,
--
Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz
RLDev Code v.0.65
L:FP E+ T+ R+++ P+ D++ G++ RL-- RLA+++ F:GearHead
GenRogue Reloaded ( http://genrogue.felis7.civ.pl/ )
W:DF Q+++ AI++ !GFX !SFX RN+++ PO--- Hp-- Re+++ S+++


R Dan Henry

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Jan 5, 2003, 1:48:09 AM1/5/03
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On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:54:44 +0100, in a fit of madness "copx"
<inv...@dd.com> declared:

>Do we need something like that :)

No, we'll celebrate really soon when Shockfrost returns with the
promised demo. All will see the realization of SF's great plan in awe
and wonder. Then with rgrd be made right.

--
R. Dan Henry
rdan...@earthlink.net
They can have my ASCII graphics when they pry them
from my cold dead (c) and (d) slots.

Amy Wang

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Jan 5, 2003, 5:51:17 PM1/5/03
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R Dan Henry <rdan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<g9lf1vsrpa1nk3q2g...@4ax.com>...

> On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:54:44 +0100, in a fit of madness "copx"
> <inv...@dd.com> declared:
>
> >Do we need something like that :)
>
> No, we'll celebrate really soon when Shockfrost returns with the
> promised demo. All will see the realization of SF's great plan in awe
> and wonder. Then with rgrd be made right.

Does anybody know off-hand when Shockfrost's promised release date is?
I believe that in November he said it would be three months, so
without boring people with the math, I must assume he's at least half
done. My opinion is that the only thing he'll have to show for his
efforts after three months will be a level 100 character on that MUD,
or something like that. But, he *promised* that *nothing* would stop
him from implementing this game, so I guess he's the best hope for an
upcoming All-Feature Sim/Roguelike Extravaganza.

On the same note, I'm considering creating a Yahoo account, or
something like that, and posting to RGRD about "My new roguelike
idea". It would go something like this: "I'm an idiot who knows
nothing about programming, but without actually doing any design,
here's my idea for a roguelike game". I'll go on to describe a bunch
of features that are in existing roguelike games/from AD&D/pure BS and
imply to the group that I need ways to expand them in ways that make
them less fun/more difficult to implement. I won't take any advice on
how to implement or design anything, but will gladly write novels
about how the AI and ecology of the game world will be more complex
than anything ever made. And I'll be done with it in a few months.

And I will call this fake person: rabidc... no, nevermind. I'll come
up with something when I have more time.

Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz

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Jan 5, 2003, 6:38:20 PM1/5/03
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Uzytkownik "Amy Wang" <blueme...@hotmail.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com...

> R Dan Henry <rdan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<g9lf1vsrpa1nk3q2g...@4ax.com>...
> > On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:54:44 +0100, in a fit of madness "copx"
> > <inv...@dd.com> declared:
> >
> > >Do we need something like that :)
> >
> > No, we'll celebrate really soon when Shockfrost returns with the
> > promised demo. All will see the realization of SF's great plan in
awe
> > and wonder. Then with rgrd be made right.
>
> Does anybody know off-hand when Shockfrost's promised release date
is?
> I believe that in November

I think that it was October 31th :).

> On the same note, I'm considering creating a Yahoo account, or
> something like that, and posting to RGRD about "My new roguelike
> idea". It would go something like this: "I'm an idiot who knows
> nothing about programming, but without actually doing any design,
> here's my idea for a roguelike game". I'll go on to describe a bunch
> of features that are in existing roguelike games/from AD&D/pure BS
and
> imply to the group that I need ways to expand them in ways that make
> them less fun/more difficult to implement. I won't take any advice
on
> how to implement or design anything, but will gladly write novels
> about how the AI and ecology of the game world will be more complex
> than anything ever made. And I'll be done with it in a few months.

Admit it Amy! You were SchockFrost!

> And I will call this fake person: rabidc... no, nevermind. I'll come
> up with something when I have more time.

You're Cruel Amy :).

RabidCow

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Jan 6, 2003, 12:02:25 AM1/6/03
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> And I will call this fake person: rabidc... no, nevermind. I'll come
> up with something when I have more time.

That was funny until you mentioned my name. Unlike the infamous SF, I
really _AM_ working on my roguelike - I'm actually implementing a good
portion of the features I've been babbling about for the past week or
so, and will have a game that could be at least considered 'playable',
even if it doesn't have all the features I want, in a month or so (no
promises on the date - it might take six months and it might be done
next week - that's just what I'm shooting for). In fact, I just
finished putting together a bad-looking demo (which will be posted in
another thread) about 15 minutes before reading your post.

Ok, I'm done ranting. Off to start a new thread to stick my demo in.

-RabidCow

Rick C

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Jan 6, 2003, 12:22:33 AM1/6/03
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"Amy Wang" <blueme...@hotmail.com> wrote

> And I will call this fake person: rabidc... no, nevermind. I'll come
> up with something when I have more time.

How 'bout "great flaming asshole"? Oh, wait, you're already using that one.


Amy Wang

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Jan 6, 2003, 1:06:11 PM1/6/03
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rabid...@yahoo.com (RabidCow) wrote in message news:<34683370.03010...@posting.google.com>...

Maybe it's not *as* funny now that you have your demo out, but I don't
think I was too unfair with my interpretation of "Here's my rambling
idea for a dream roguelike that has more features than theme, and by
the way, I'm writing it in Java". A tiny bit of design posted to the
group would have prevented any ridicule.

On the other hand, I see a couple of demos on your site. Recursive
shadowcasting is nice (shows you know something about code). A 3D
demo, however, just makes me think "one month, lol".

RabidCow

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Jan 6, 2003, 8:53:51 PM1/6/03
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> Maybe it's not *as* funny now that you have your demo out, but I don't
> think I was too unfair with my interpretation of "Here's my rambling
> idea for a dream roguelike that has more features than theme, and by
> the way, I'm writing it in Java". A tiny bit of design posted to the
> group would have prevented any ridicule.

I do see your point, but that doesn't make it any less offensive.

And a note on the way I work: I don't design much beforehand. I come
up with a list of things I want to implement, and start implementing.
Sure, I have to stop in the middle of things to rethink large portions
of the program, but it's more fun that way.

> On the other hand, I see a couple of demos on your site. Recursive
> shadowcasting is nice (shows you know something about code). A 3D
> demo, however, just makes me think "one month, lol".

When I said one month, I meant one month till I had something playable
- like a really simple dungeon crawl. Only about 10% of the feature I
want will be in that version, and 3D may or may not be one of them.

-RabidCow

Amy Wang

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Jan 6, 2003, 11:50:26 PM1/6/03
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"Rick C" <pixe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<avb3r1$cuadl$1...@ID-80100.news.dfncis.de>...

I don't know what kind of response you're expecting to get, but it's
good that you're sticking up for your friend ShockFrost. I hope you
have a good time playing his game when it's released next month.

Rick C

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Jan 7, 2003, 12:11:58 AM1/7/03
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"Amy Wang" <blueme...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com...

Actually, I'll be surprised if he ever appears with working code, too. As
for response, I don't really care what your response is--I calls 'em like I
sees 'em, and I think I pegged your recent behavior pretty accurately.


R Dan Henry

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Jan 7, 2003, 12:20:56 AM1/7/03
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On 5 Jan 2003 21:02:25 -0800, in a fit of madness rabid...@yahoo.com
(RabidCow) declared:

>> And I will call this fake person: rabidc... no, nevermind. I'll come
>> up with something when I have more time.
>
>That was funny until you mentioned my name.

Don't mind Amy Wang, she's just the Great Demon of Negativity, hanging
out in hopes she'll be a unique in somebody's game.

"Amy Wang breathes sarcasm. Amy Wang breathes negativity. -more-"
"Amy Wang looks smug. You die. -more-"

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes

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Jan 7, 2003, 2:34:52 AM1/7/03
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Tue, 07 Jan 2003 05:20:56 GMT, R Dan Henry <rdan...@earthlink.net>:

> On 5 Jan 2003 21:02:25 -0800, in a fit of madness rabid...@yahoo.com
> (RabidCow) declared:
>>> And I will call this fake person: rabidc... no, nevermind. I'll come
>>> up with something when I have more time.
>>That was funny until you mentioned my name.
> Don't mind Amy Wang, she's just the Great Demon of Negativity, hanging
> out in hopes she'll be a unique in somebody's game.

Don't get her hopes up, she's not that great.

> "Amy Wang breathes sarcasm. Amy Wang breathes negativity. -more-"
> "Amy Wang looks smug.

"You completely ignore her feeble attacks."

--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"We remain convinced that this is the best defensive posture to adopt in
order to minimize casualties when the Great Old Ones return from beyond
the stars to eat our brains." -Charlie Stross, _The Concrete Jungle_

Oliver Richman

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Jan 7, 2003, 2:37:02 AM1/7/03
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Hey.. now that's a good idea.

Amy, with your permission? :)

-frl


"R Dan Henry" <rdan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:8ook1vsaq6s69715m...@4ax.com...

DarkGod

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Jan 7, 2003, 8:49:15 AM1/7/03
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On 6 Jan 2003 20:50:26 -0800, blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang)
wrote:

>"Rick C" <pixe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<avb3r1$cuadl$1...@ID-80100.news.dfncis.de>...
>> "Amy Wang" <blueme...@hotmail.com> wrote
>>
>> > And I will call this fake person: rabidc... no, nevermind. I'll come
>> > up with something when I have more time.
>>
>> How 'bout "great flaming asshole"? Oh, wait, you're already using that one.
>
>I don't know what kind of response you're expecting to get, but it's

And what kind of response were YOU expecting when you posted your
flame?
Yes they may be dreamers that wont produce code, or maybe they will.
But why are you so harsh with them ? Are you feeling superior to them
? Well where is your game then as it seems to be the only thing that
matters for you...

You dont seem stupid and if you could simply be a bit more friendly it
would be great ...

PS: Dont bother saying I should go write a game, I already did, and it
is played by many, thank you

RabidCow

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Jan 7, 2003, 11:52:03 AM1/7/03
to
R Dan Henry <rdan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<8ook1vsaq6s69715m...@4ax.com>...

> On 5 Jan 2003 21:02:25 -0800, in a fit of madness rabid...@yahoo.com
> (RabidCow) declared:
>
> >> And I will call this fake person: rabidc... no, nevermind. I'll come
> >> up with something when I have more time.
> >
> >That was funny until you mentioned my name.
>
> Don't mind Amy Wang, she's just the Great Demon of Negativity, hanging
> out in hopes she'll be a unique in somebody's game.
>
> "Amy Wang breathes sarcasm. Amy Wang breathes negativity. -more-"
> "Amy Wang looks smug. You die. -more-"

Hahahahaha.
Now I've got a final boss for my game (well, maybe the first few
releases anyway, before I start writing all that complex story/quest
code).

-RabidCow

RabidCow

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Jan 7, 2003, 12:03:24 PM1/7/03
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blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang) wrote in message news:<62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com>...

First off, I'm NOT ShockFrost. If I was SF, either I would be quoting
large portions of the D&D books, or I would be to busy playing that
MUD to post here.

Second, that 'one month' thing wasn't definite, though every time you
talk like it's not gonna happen, it makes me want to get it out even
more, just to prove you wrong. There's just something about people
saying 'it can't be done' that makes me want to do it.

-RabidCow

Amy Wang

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Jan 7, 2003, 3:52:20 PM1/7/03
to
dar...@ifrance.com (DarkGod) wrote in message news:<3e1ada1c...@news.cis.dfn.de>...

> On 6 Jan 2003 20:50:26 -0800, blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang)
> wrote:
>
> >"Rick C" <pixe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<avb3r1$cuadl$1...@ID-80100.news.dfncis.de>...
> >> "Amy Wang" <blueme...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >>
> >> > And I will call this fake person: rabidc... no, nevermind. I'll come
> >> > up with something when I have more time.
> >>
> >> How 'bout "great flaming asshole"? Oh, wait, you're already using that one.
> >
> >I don't know what kind of response you're expecting to get, but it's
>
> And what kind of response were YOU expecting when you posted your
> flame?
> Yes they may be dreamers that wont produce code, or maybe they will.
> But why are you so harsh with them ? Are you feeling superior to them

I guess I might as well give you a list:

They're egotistical, and won't work together because of their need for
"creative control". If a few people here started a group, we'd see a
lot more roguelike games.

They think that roguelike games are so easy to implement that doing so
is a good first project for a first year CS student.

When they know how to code at all, they think that design is below
their code hacking abilities.

They fail to realize that their pipe dream ideas would constitute one
of the most complicated games ever. And yet, they think that a single
novice programmer should be able to implement a series of vague ideas.

These dreamers think that their ideas are so original and
avante-garde, but most of them are found in AD&D (always AD&D- I'd
love to see a ripoff of something else, even DUDE), existing games, or
the natural world (in other words, common sense). The few that are
original are so poorly thought out that it should be obvious that any
implementation would detract from the fun of the game.

Despite having all of these features, they can't see any theme beyond
simple dungeon crawling. They desperately try and try to add features
and realism to turn a dungeon crawl into a sim, even though a simple
theme is all that's needed.

> ? Well where is your game then as it seems to be the only thing that
> matters for you...

As far as RGRD is concerned, it "matters to me" that repeated failures
by developers serve to reduce the number of roguelike games available
to play. If there were more roguelike games in existence, there would
probably be more people playing them, so theoretically, there would be
more people developing more games. That would be a good thing.

My game? I have an early-alpha roguelike that's not in development,
and a text-based non-roguelike that's nearing beta. Neither of them
will be released to a group of dungeon crawling MUD/RPG burn-outs that
are already rabidly hostile to my honesty.

>
> You dont seem stupid and if you could simply be a bit more friendly it
> would be great ...

I'll be extremely friendly to anyone whose "My roguelike idea" post
goes something like this: "I'm an experienced programmer who has an
idea for a roguelike game that has a definite theme other than
medieval fantasy dungeon crawling. My idea has at most a couple of
features that aren't in existing roguelikes.... I'm not a UNIX code
hacker, and my younger brother doesn't have a 386 that I'm trying to
get my game to run on..... [and most importantly] I'm posting to this
group for [some reason other than 'make my idea more complicated']".

This also works: "I'm an inexperienced/non-programmer who has a
well-thought out idea for a roguelike game. I've already done much of
the design, and I'd like to form a group to help me implement it.
Here's a rough idea of what the game would be like.... but for more
details, I'd prefer having a group of programmers being set up first."

>
> PS: Dont bother saying I should go write a game, I already did, and it
> is played by many, thank you

In case you haven't noticed, I'm the only person here who doesn't use
that tactic in order to defuse someone's argument. Thank you, though,
for using it on me.

DarkGod

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Jan 7, 2003, 5:28:53 PM1/7/03
to
On 7 Jan 2003 12:52:20 -0800, blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang)
wrote:

>They're egotistical, and won't work together because of their need for


>"creative control". If a few people here started a group, we'd see a
>lot more roguelike games.

>They think that roguelike games are so easy to implement that doing so
>is a good first project for a first year CS student.

So what ? They will fail, or succeed, why does it bothers you?
If it fails it will be their failure, not yours.

>When they know how to code at all, they think that design is below
>their code hacking abilities.

This might be true yes. But people need to start somewhere. And while
they're at it they'd better get ambitious, it helps progressing.
When I started I had no idea of designs, or whatever. I just got in
and coded, and yes I made many errors. But they helped me learn, they
helped me code better, they helped me think of design.

>They fail to realize that their pipe dream ideas would constitute one
>of the most complicated games ever. And yet, they think that a single
>novice programmer should be able to implement a series of vague ideas.

Dreaming is what put humanity in the place it stands. Dreaming often
fails, but I cant see how that bothers you.

>These dreamers think that their ideas are so original and
>avante-garde, but most of them are found in AD&D (always AD&D- I'd
>love to see a ripoff of something else, even DUDE), existing games, or
>the natural world (in other words, common sense). The few that are
>original are so poorly thought out that it should be obvious that any
>implementation would detract from the fun of the game.

Maybe so. but if you dont let people discuss old ideas over and over
you reduce the chances of them getting a new idea. kinda like genetic
evolution, with old genes and some luck you get something new.

>Despite having all of these features, they can't see any theme beyond
>simple dungeon crawling. They desperately try and try to add features
>and realism to turn a dungeon crawl into a sim, even though a simple
>theme is all that's needed.

To that I agree, a theme is(sometimes) needed.

>As far as RGRD is concerned, it "matters to me" that repeated failures
>by developers serve to reduce the number of roguelike games available
>to play. If there were more roguelike games in existence, there would
>probably be more people playing them, so theoretically, there would be
>more people developing more games. That would be a good thing.

More games doesnt mean more players.

>My game? I have an early-alpha roguelike that's not in development,
>and a text-based non-roguelike that's nearing beta. Neither of them
>will be released to a group of dungeon crawling MUD/RPG burn-outs that
>are already rabidly hostile to my honesty.

Why not? You must obviously have better ideas than the rest of the
group, and that combined with a better design too. So it would be
superior, no? So why not release it there to provide enlightenment ?

>I'll be extremely friendly to anyone whose "My roguelike idea" post
>goes something like this: "I'm an experienced programmer who has an
>idea for a roguelike game that has a definite theme other than
>medieval fantasy dungeon crawling. My idea has at most a couple of
>features that aren't in existing roguelikes.... I'm not a UNIX code
>hacker, and my younger brother doesn't have a 386 that I'm trying to
>get my game to run on..... [and most importantly] I'm posting to this

What do you have against unix hackers ? Or people running old
hardware? Sometimes flowers raise from the dirt(not that I would call
unix dirt tho)

>group for [some reason other than 'make my idea more complicated']".

The question being asked to the group usualy have little connection
with the answer given anyway. It jsut serves to start an exchange of
ideas.

>This also works: "I'm an inexperienced/non-programmer who has a
>well-thought out idea for a roguelike game. I've already done much of
>the design, and I'd like to form a group to help me implement it.
>Here's a rough idea of what the game would be like.... but for more
>details, I'd prefer having a group of programmers being set up first."

What is it this thing you have with groups ?
Why shold everybody work in groups ?
What if they just want to have FUN on their own without having to
comply with the will of other people. If it latter turns out that
their game survives and becomes played, it is still time to let a
group gather, if it is the will of the maintainer.

>> PS: Dont bother saying I should go write a game, I already did, and it
>> is played by many, thank you
>In case you haven't noticed, I'm the only person here who doesn't use
>that tactic in order to defuse someone's argument. Thank you, though,
>for using it on me.

Then you should not flame people beacuse they dont (yet or not) have a
game to show to the world.

Amy Wang

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Jan 7, 2003, 6:09:37 PM1/7/03
to
rabid...@yahoo.com (RabidCow) wrote in message news:<34683370.03010...@posting.google.com>...
>
> First off, I'm NOT ShockFrost. If I was SF, either I would be quoting
> large portions of the D&D books, or I would be to busy playing that
> MUD to post here.

I'm not saying that you're ShockFrost (me and Anubis know the truth
:)). I'm saying that you have the same design principles as him.

>
> Second, that 'one month' thing wasn't definite, though every time you
> talk like it's not gonna happen, it makes me want to get it out even
> more, just to prove you wrong. There's just something about people
> saying 'it can't be done' that makes me want to do it.

So basically, I win either way. If I'm right, I can sit here and
insult you all I want and be proven right when you realize that
software development is something that only grown-ups do. If you
continue to write your game and somehow succeed (despite lacking the
design, talent, or patience without people pushing you), then I get to
play a new roguelike game. In other words, I'm happy, and even if you
will never create anything in your whole life, you have still
entertained me. Thank you, RabidCow.

Gerry Quinn

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Jan 7, 2003, 6:41:58 PM1/7/03
to

>They're egotistical, and won't work together because of their need for
>"creative control". If a few people here started a group, we'd see a
>lot more roguelike games.

It's very questionable. When nobody's getting paid, people lose
interest. Depends on the group, of course, but there's a lot to be said
for working alone.

>They think that roguelike games are so easy to implement that doing so
>is a good first project for a first year CS student.

It's a good third year project. Good for learning, ambitious enough to
give scope to the talented, modular enough for a complex system to be
successfully developed by the relatively unskilled, tolerant of the
graphically inept...

>My game? I have an early-alpha roguelike that's not in development,
>and a text-based non-roguelike that's nearing beta. Neither of them
>will be released to a group of dungeon crawling MUD/RPG burn-outs that
>are already rabidly hostile to my honesty.

You'll be keeping your games secret from us? That speaks volumes.

>> You dont seem stupid and if you could simply be a bit more friendly it
>> would be great ...
>
>I'll be extremely friendly to anyone whose "My roguelike idea" post
>goes something like this: "I'm an experienced programmer who has an
>idea for a roguelike game that has a definite theme other than
>medieval fantasy dungeon crawling. My idea has at most a couple of
>features that aren't in existing roguelikes.... I'm not a UNIX code
>hacker, and my younger brother doesn't have a 386 that I'm trying to
>get my game to run on..... [and most importantly] I'm posting to this
>group for [some reason other than 'make my idea more complicated']".
>
>This also works: "I'm an inexperienced/non-programmer who has a
>well-thought out idea for a roguelike game. I've already done much of
>the design, and I'd like to form a group to help me implement it.
>Here's a rough idea of what the game would be like.... but for more
>details, I'd prefer having a group of programmers being set up first."

We won't demand friendliness, but you could consider being at least
civil to those who don't slavishly follow your agenda.

>> PS: Dont bother saying I should go write a game, I already did, and it
>> is played by many, thank you
>
>In case you haven't noticed, I'm the only person here who doesn't use
>that tactic in order to defuse someone's argument. Thank you, though,
>for using it on me.

It's a tactic you are somewhat vulnerable to (see above).

Gerry Quinn
--
http://bindweed.com
Entertainment software for Windows
Puzzles, Strategy Games, Kaleidoscope Screensaver
Download evaluation versions free - no time limits


Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz

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Jan 7, 2003, 7:16:47 PM1/7/03
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Użytkownik "DarkGod" <dar...@ifrance.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:3e1ada1c...@news.cis.dfn.de...

> On 6 Jan 2003 20:50:26 -0800, blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang)
> wrote:
>
> >"Rick C" <pixe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<avb3r1$cuadl$1...@ID-80100.news.dfncis.de>...
> >> How 'bout "great flaming asshole"? Oh, wait, you're already
using that one.
> >
> >I don't know what kind of response you're expecting to get, but
it's
>
> And what kind of response were YOU expecting when you posted your
> flame?

Note that the first person to flame somebody, per se, was Rick. Of
course we all know that Amy's position is quite radical, still she
doesn't produce flames. Why? Because all of her argument's are actualy
rational...

> Yes they may be dreamers that wont produce code, or maybe they will.
> But why are you so harsh with them ?

True. Sometimes too much is too much. I also went on SchockFrost for
vaporwaring, but stopped when I realised that it wont have any chance
of success. When somebody attacks someone without believing that she
can make him change his opinion, that *could* be called a flame.

> Are you feeling superior to them
> ? Well where is your game then as it seems to be the only thing that
> matters for you...

That's an unfair argument, DarkGod :).

> PS: Dont bother saying I should go write a game, I already did, and
it
> is played by many, thank you

Oh yes you did... ;)
But don't be SOOO proud, you made a _variant_, not a game :). Making a
variant is easier. Especialy that you didn't have the problems that
most of the people that unconsciously spam vapourware have -- those
people can show nothing. You could show a whole game even after
changing a couple lines of code... So from Amy's point of view, it
doesn't care wether you made ToME, or not. You never were on the first
damned steps...

Still, ToME is the best variant of a roguelike ever created :).

regards,

DarkGod

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Jan 7, 2003, 8:33:36 PM1/7/03
to
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 01:16:47 +0100, "Kornel \"Anubis\" Kisielewicz"
<anu...@felis7.civ.pl> wrote:

>> And what kind of response were YOU expecting when you posted your
>> flame?
>Note that the first person to flame somebody, per se, was Rick. Of
>course we all know that Amy's position is quite radical, still she
>doesn't produce flames. Why? Because all of her argument's are actualy
>rational...

Rational arguments thrown harsly at everything that moves sounds like
flaming to me..

>> Are you feeling superior to them
>> ? Well where is your game then as it seems to be the only thing that
>> matters for you...
>That's an unfair argument, DarkGod :).

Why so? She do seem to think she is superior, see she doesnt even want
to show us her great game... wait maybe she doesvaporware too ? mhh
naaa ;)

>> PS: Dont bother saying I should go write a game, I already did, and
>it
>> is played by many, thank you
>Oh yes you did... ;)
>But don't be SOOO proud, you made a _variant_, not a game :). Making a

Actually quite a few people would tell you it started as a variant and
turned into a game. As for my opinion on the matter, well it shall
remain hidden :)

As for being SOOO pround, I wasnt, I was just pointing out a fact to
cut off grass under her feet :)

>variant is easier. Especialy that you didn't have the problems that
>most of the people that unconsciously spam vapourware have -- those
>people can show nothing. You could show a whole game even after
>changing a couple lines of code... So from Amy's point of view, it

Not really, changing a few line of code doesnt make a new game. It is
called a small patch :)

>doesn't care wether you made ToME, or not. You never were on the first
>damned steps...

Well I made quite a few other games from scrath before ToME. But they
dont exactly work on modern computers anymore :(
They werent RL either but still quite complex :) But this is beside
the point anyway

>Still, ToME is the best variant of a roguelike ever created :).

Heh

DarkGod

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Jan 7, 2003, 8:36:13 PM1/7/03
to
On 7 Jan 2003 15:09:37 -0800, blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang)
wrote:

>So basically, I win either way. If I'm right, I can sit here and


>insult you all I want and be proven right when you realize that
>software development is something that only grown-ups do. If you
>continue to write your game and somehow succeed (despite lacking the
>design, talent, or patience without people pushing you), then I get to
>play a new roguelike game. In other words, I'm happy, and even if you
>will never create anything in your whole life, you have still
>entertained me. Thank you, RabidCow.

Let me sum it up:
* If he succeeds you'll be happy to play a new game. that's fair and
sane.
* If he fails you'll be happy to have had the possibility to insult
him. This is unsane and wicked, and if you have this kind of
personnality you should not tell people they are not "grown-up" ..

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes

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Jan 8, 2003, 12:06:12 AM1/8/03
to
Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:28:53 GMT, DarkGod <dar...@ifrance.com>:

> On 7 Jan 2003 12:52:20 -0800, blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang)
> wrote:
>>These dreamers think that their ideas are so original and
>>avante-garde, but most of them are found in AD&D (always AD&D- I'd
>>love to see a ripoff of something else, even DUDE), existing games, or

While I love seeing my games mentioned, DUDE would be an
extraordinarily bad basis for a computer game. It uses cards for task
resolution, and it's super-freeform. It might be fun to make a social
MUD that used DUDE for conflict resolution, but even that would be
weird. Yet another AD&D ripoff *would* be a better choice for a
roguelike, and I despise AD&D.

If someone does want to base a roguelike on one of my pencil & paper
RPGs, I'd recommend Phobos
<http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/Phobos/>. Phobos will never be
"out of beta", I've taken the best parts and moved on to new game
designs, but it's a complete and playable game system, and it's some of
my best game design work. I use a variant of the Phobos system in both
of my roguelike CRPGs: Umbra
<http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/Umbra/> and Hephaestus
<http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/Hephaestus/>.

My new P+P RPG, _Arcadia: a role-playing game of fairyland_, should be
even more suitable as a CRPG system (I'm quite deliberately designing it
that way), but it's 1-3 months from a beta release and at least 3-6
months from completion, depending on inspiration. I'll be using my
Arcadia system in "An Interactive Environment Engine" (Aiee!), which is
a story-generating adventure game system I've recently started
development on; I plan to put up an early beta of the Aiee! interpreter
in a few weeks, just to get some feedback. The story-generator won't be
done for some time, 6-12 months minimum.

>>My game? I have an early-alpha roguelike that's not in development,
>>and a text-based non-roguelike that's nearing beta. Neither of them
>>will be released to a group of dungeon crawling MUD/RPG burn-outs that
>>are already rabidly hostile to my honesty.
> Why not? You must obviously have better ideas than the rest of the
> group, and that combined with a better design too. So it would be
> superior, no? So why not release it there to provide enlightenment ?

[...]


>>> PS: Dont bother saying I should go write a game, I already did, and it
>>> is played by many, thank you
>>In case you haven't noticed, I'm the only person here who doesn't use
>>that tactic in order to defuse someone's argument. Thank you, though,
>>for using it on me.

Of course you don't use that argument--you've never written a game.

> Then you should not flame people beacuse they dont (yet or not) have a
> game to show to the world.

Wang's a troll. She'll never release a game of any kind. She's just
here to stir up trouble and piss people off by telling them "don't
bother developing a game".

I'm going to challenge you, Wang. Put up your beta game, or your
alpha roguelike, or whatever you have. If you don't, you're admitting
that you're a troll, a loser, and completely without value in life.

If I'm wrong, and it's even vaguely competent, I'll admit that you're
a great game designer who is really concerned for other people.

RabidCow

unread,
Jan 8, 2003, 12:34:20 AM1/8/03
to
blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang) wrote in message news:<62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com>...
> rabid...@yahoo.com (RabidCow) wrote in message news:<34683370.03010...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > First off, I'm NOT ShockFrost. If I was SF, either I would be quoting
> > large portions of the D&D books, or I would be to busy playing that
> > MUD to post here.
>
> I'm not saying that you're ShockFrost (me and Anubis know the truth
> :)). I'm saying that you have the same design principles as him.

I do? I wrote out everything I was going to put in my game in my first
post, and that's what's going in the game, nothing more, nothing less.
I discuss these ideas to get a clearer picture of the details before
jumping in and implementing them, not to come up with more and more
ideas that end up leading to dropping the project.

>
> >
> > Second, that 'one month' thing wasn't definite, though every time you
> > talk like it's not gonna happen, it makes me want to get it out even
> > more, just to prove you wrong. There's just something about people
> > saying 'it can't be done' that makes me want to do it.
>
> So basically, I win either way. If I'm right, I can sit here and
> insult you all I want and be proven right when you realize that
> software development is something that only grown-ups do. If you
> continue to write your game and somehow succeed (despite lacking the
> design, talent, or patience without people pushing you),

I have the design, talent, AND patience (in fact people pushing me
tends to make me less patient). None of these things, however is
absolutely necessary to create a roguelike. What one needs is
perserverance - something mysteriously absent from your list of things
I don't have.

> then I get to
> play a new roguelike game. In other words, I'm happy, and even if you
> will never create anything in your whole life, you have still
> entertained me. Thank you, RabidCow.

So your idea of entertainment is insulting people and watching them
fail? That's sad.

-RabidCow

Amy Wang

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Jan 8, 2003, 1:21:04 AM1/8/03
to
dar...@ifrance.com (DarkGod) wrote in message news:<3e1b801e...@news.cis.dfn.de>...

> Let me sum it up:
> * If he succeeds you'll be happy to play a new game. that's fair and
> sane.
> * If he fails you'll be happy to have had the possibility to insult
> him. This is unsane and wicked, and if you have this kind of
> personnality you should not tell people they are not "grown-up" ..

On the other hand, if he fails, it will be people like you who get
caught with your blind and meaningless support. While a handful of
people criticized ShockFrost for the obvious (to us) fact that he
would never produce anything, others were moving right along giving
him new ideas that would make his game more complex. That may not be
insane, but it's certainly irrational, and it doesn't help produce
more games.

Amy Wang

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Jan 8, 2003, 1:58:03 AM1/8/03
to
dar...@ifrance.com (DarkGod) wrote in message news:<3e1b4bbf...@news.cis.dfn.de>...

> On 7 Jan 2003 12:52:20 -0800, blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang)
> wrote:
>
> >They're egotistical, and won't work together because of their need for
> >"creative control". If a few people here started a group, we'd see a
> >lot more roguelike games.
>
> >They think that roguelike games are so easy to implement that doing so
> >is a good first project for a first year CS student.
> So what ? They will fail, or succeed, why does it bothers you?
> If it fails it will be their failure, not yours.

How it bothers me personally: if they succeed, I get more games to
play. If they fail, they've wasted their own time, which may not
directly affect me, but at least I *don't* have a new game to play.


>
> >When they know how to code at all, they think that design is below
> >their code hacking abilities.
> This might be true yes. But people need to start somewhere. And while
> they're at it they'd better get ambitious, it helps progressing.
> When I started I had no idea of designs, or whatever. I just got in
> and coded, and yes I made many errors. But they helped me learn, they
> helped me code better, they helped me think of design.

So why is it necessary for them to post their insane ideas to RGRD?
Why don't they just try to implement them on their own and ask
legitimate coding questions to the group?

>
> >They fail to realize that their pipe dream ideas would constitute one
> >of the most complicated games ever. And yet, they think that a single
> >novice programmer should be able to implement a series of vague ideas.
> Dreaming is what put humanity in the place it stands. Dreaming often
> fails, but I cant see how that bothers you.

Dreaming is good, but it doesn't create games. When someone comes to a
development group, passing himself off as a game developer, I expect
him to do something along the lines of developing something. Caveat:
endless brainstorming about unrelated features does not constitute
development.

>
> >These dreamers think that their ideas are so original and
> >avante-garde, but most of them are found in AD&D (always AD&D- I'd
> >love to see a ripoff of something else, even DUDE), existing games, or
> >the natural world (in other words, common sense). The few that are
> >original are so poorly thought out that it should be obvious that any
> >implementation would detract from the fun of the game.
> Maybe so. but if you dont let people discuss old ideas over and over
> you reduce the chances of them getting a new idea. kinda like genetic
> evolution, with old genes and some luck you get something new.

Even if I think that these ideas are so terrible or unoriginal, I'd
like to see someone implement them in a roguelike game. That way, we'd
be able to tell what works and what doesn't, according to your
genetics analogy. What bothers me at this point is people saying that
they've created something new when 1: there's no implementation, so I
don't call it 'creation', and 2: it's not original to begin with.

>
> >As far as RGRD is concerned, it "matters to me" that repeated failures
> >by developers serve to reduce the number of roguelike games available
> >to play. If there were more roguelike games in existence, there would
> >probably be more people playing them, so theoretically, there would be
> >more people developing more games. That would be a good thing.
> More games doesnt mean more players.

I'll relate my logic. If there were *less* games, there'd certainly be
less players. Certainly, if Rogue were the only roguelike game, fewer
people would be playing it. On the other extreme, if there were an
unlimited number of roguelike games available, there would be wider
appeal for roguelike games. It turns out that ShockFrost wasn't the
next Thomas Biskup, but let's pretend for a moment that he was.
Somewhere, this game would appeal to someone, and thus increase the
popularity of the roguelike genre.

I shouldn't have to explain how more players means more developers.

>
> >My game? I have an early-alpha roguelike that's not in development,
> >and a text-based non-roguelike that's nearing beta. Neither of them
> >will be released to a group of dungeon crawling MUD/RPG burn-outs that
> >are already rabidly hostile to my honesty.
> Why not? You must obviously have better ideas than the rest of the
> group, and that combined with a better design too. So it would be
> superior, no? So why not release it there to provide enlightenment ?

1. If you think my ideas are so superior, why do you show so much
resistance to them? (my thesis has always been that design and
creativity are more important than portability and security)

2. Of course it has a better design, since it's a design that could
actually be implemented. ShockFrost's 'design' was nothing more than a
bunch of usenet posts.

3. I don't expect any honest criticism from this group, since I seem
to be your most hated enemy. While there are mature individuals in
this group, any advice they have to give will unfortunately be ways to
make the game more fun for them but less fun for me.

4. It's not a roguelike game. This is a roguelike game development
group.

5. I don't have anything to prove to you. I don't have any ambition to
be famous among roguelike developers as the maker of a good game. If I
did, I'd find some theme to use and finish my roguelike game.

> What do you have against unix hackers ? Or people running old
> hardware? Sometimes flowers raise from the dirt(not that I would call
> unix dirt tho)

There's people who are writing games in Java for the sole purpose of
making the game portable. There's way too many people who turned old
machines into Linux boxes and insist on finding ways of optimizing
code that doesn't exist, because they seem to think that they need the
game to run on all of their machines. These aren't bad things to do-
they're just not productive.

>
> >group for [some reason other than 'make my idea more complicated']".
> The question being asked to the group usualy have little connection
> with the answer given anyway. It jsut serves to start an exchange of
> ideas.

I have not seen any case of this grand exchange ever leading to a
meaningful implementation. That is my agenda.

> What is it this thing you have with groups ?
> Why shold everybody work in groups ?

I believe that the people who don't have the talent or skill to
complete something on their own should work together in however large
a group is needed to create a game. It's that simple. I want more
games. So far, I think it's easier to convince two people to work
together than it is to convince someone to become smarter or more
educated. As far as RGRD is concerned, I haven't succeeded in either,
but I'm still going with the former.

> What if they just want to have FUN on their own without having to
> comply with the will of other people. If it latter turns out that
> their game survives and becomes played, it is still time to let a
> group gather, if it is the will of the maintainer.

If someone wants to play around with an implementation on their own,
there's no way of me to know. But when someone posts to RGRD with a
game idea, I assume that he has the intention of actually creating a
game. Perhaps that's the fundamental rift between our beliefs.

> Then you should not flame people beacuse they dont (yet or not) have a
> game to show to the world.

I won't flame "I can, and I will" or "I can't, so I won't". I will
flame "I can't, but I will". That means all of these people with no
real experience, no design, and a few vague features making
meaningless posts and implying that they'll implement a game from
them. As it stands, any retard can post a few ideas and have the post
blossom into a 100-post thread. This great cauldron of ideas might be
fun, but it's (hopefully) not as fun as actually playing a roguelike
game.

Jim Strathmeyer

unread,
Jan 8, 2003, 3:20:53 AM1/8/03
to

On 7 Jan 2003, Amy Wang wrote:
>
> 5. I don't have anything to prove to you. I don't have any ambition to
> be famous among roguelike developers as the maker of a good game. If I
> did, I'd find some theme to use and finish my roguelike game.
>

Then why do you keep posting here?

Lichen678

unread,
Jan 8, 2003, 5:39:57 AM1/8/03
to
blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang) wrote in message news:

> > >> How 'bout "great flaming asshole"? Oh, wait, you're already using that one.

Did we really need another flamewar? But while we're all hewing in,
here's my two cesti...

<snip>


> I guess I might as well give you a list:
>
> They're egotistical, and won't work together because of their need for
> "creative control". If a few people here started a group, we'd see a
> lot more roguelike games.

You're the one who's keen for this to happen. You may need to do more
than rant about your ideas if you want it to actually eventuate.

<snip>



> When they know how to code at all, they think that design is below
> their code hacking abilities.

You generalise a lot about "they". I think it is rather simplistic.
You'll find that a lot of people who have decent coding abilities just
don't know much about design, it's got nothing to do with thinking
it's below them.

<snip>


> As far as RGRD is concerned, it "matters to me" that repeated failures
> by developers serve to reduce the number of roguelike games available
> to play.

Excuse me? Reduce the number of roguelike games available?
A lack of an increase in the number of games available is rather
different from a reduction. You make it out as if people are somehow
harming roguelike gamers by trying to make new games and failing, or
taking a very long time about it.

<snip>


> I'll be extremely friendly to anyone whose "My roguelike idea" post
> goes something like this: "I'm an experienced programmer who has an
> idea for a roguelike game that has a definite theme other than
> medieval fantasy dungeon crawling. My idea has at most a couple of
> features that aren't in existing roguelikes.... I'm not a UNIX code
> hacker, and my younger brother doesn't have a 386 that I'm trying to
> get my game to run on..... [and most importantly] I'm posting to this
> group for [some reason other than 'make my idea more complicated']".
>
> This also works: "I'm an inexperienced/non-programmer who has a
> well-thought out idea for a roguelike game. I've already done much of
> the design, and I'd like to form a group to help me implement it.
> Here's a rough idea of what the game would be like.... but for more
> details, I'd prefer having a group of programmers being set up first."

Yeah. Nice to know what you want. But this is a forum for anyone and
everyone who wants to post on the topic of roguelike game development.
If you want something more exclusive, I recommend creating it
yourself.
You've ranted at us like this a couple of times now, and as you've
mentioned not everyone likes you (in fact, some people are pretty
hostile toward you). I think you may have something constructive to
add to this newsgroup and you seem pretty interested since you keep
coming back here, but I really wish you would either be friendly and
inoffensive about it, or go elsewhere.

You complain about people ranting about their pipe dreams. I think
your idea of people here banding together to create roguelike games,
somehow agreeing on language and UI and theme and all that junk, and
somehow all staying dedicated without pay to a project on which they
have had to make compromises for the group, is a pipe dream. Feel free
to rant about it, and any other radical change you would like to have
made to the way we conduct ourselves here, but please remember that if
you continue to be negative and offensive, you will get negative and
offensive responses. Be friendly and helpful, or actually offer to do
something constructive for a change, and people may react differently.

--jude.

Joseph Hewitt

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Jan 8, 2003, 9:05:03 AM1/8/03
to
blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang) wrote in message news:<62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com>...

> 3. I don't expect any honest criticism from this group, since I seem
> to be your most hated enemy. While there are mature individuals in
> this group, any advice they have to give will unfortunately be ways to
> make the game more fun for them but less fun for me.

You're absolutely right on this point. My advice would be: Your game
needs giant robots. I don't know anything more about your game but I
can tell you that I want it to have giant robots. And more rabbits...
Even if it already has rabbits. Those things are vicious little
beasts, I tell you. Honestly. Rabbits and robots. Rabbits in robots,
if at all possible. Giant robotic rabbits.

More fun for me, less fun for just about everyone else on the planet.


> 4. It's not a roguelike game. This is a roguelike game development
> group.

Eh, neither is GearHead by most people's definitions...


> As it stands, any retard can post a few ideas and have the post
> blossom into a 100-post thread.

I can't. My threads about GearHead's development mostly died quiet
deaths. Perhaps because I actually intended to implement the things I
was talking about... And now, here we are, giving SF another thread.

- Joseph Hewitt
--
DeadCold > http://www.geocities.com/pyrrho12/programming/deadcold/index.html
GearHead > http://www.geocities.com/pyrrho12/programming/gearhead/index.html

Amy Wang

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Jan 8, 2003, 2:53:32 PM1/8/03
to
pyrr...@hotmail.com (Joseph Hewitt) wrote in message news:<eedfa948.03010...@posting.google.com>...

> blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang) wrote in message news:<62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com>...
> > 3. I don't expect any honest criticism from this group, since I seem
> > to be your most hated enemy. While there are mature individuals in
> > this group, any advice they have to give will unfortunately be ways to
> > make the game more fun for them but less fun for me.
>
> You're absolutely right on this point. My advice would be: Your game
> needs giant robots. I don't know anything more about your game but I
> can tell you that I want it to have giant robots. And more rabbits...
> Even if it already has rabbits. Those things are vicious little
> beasts, I tell you. Honestly. Rabbits and robots. Rabbits in robots,
> if at all possible. Giant robotic rabbits.

It has robots, actually. Not giant ones like in Mechwarrior, but ~15'
machines that can be piloted. I don't know about rabbits, though. The
game isn't exactly rodent-themed, but that can all change... :)

> > As it stands, any retard can post a few ideas and have the post
> > blossom into a 100-post thread.
>
> I can't. My threads about GearHead's development mostly died quiet
> deaths. Perhaps because I actually intended to implement the things I
> was talking about... And now, here we are, giving SF another thread.
>

Ironic, isn't it? Perhaps it's the lack of obviously unimplementable
ideas, or the lack of AD&D ripoffs that cause the lack of enthusiasm.

If I were you, I'd create a new name and email address, and use the
GearHead code as a base for a new (closed-source) game "inspired by
GearHead". Then, I'd make a *big* post to RGRD about some blatantly
stupid ideas that could never be implemented and would make the game
hell to play anyways. I think that should generate the necessary
enthusiasm to create a huge thread about ways to make those ideas more
complex and less fun. Then, after a couple of months, give up because
of [random life event].

RabidCow

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Jan 8, 2003, 7:38:58 PM1/8/03
to
> It has robots, actually. Not giant ones like in Mechwarrior, but ~15'
> machines that can be piloted. I don't know about rabbits, though. The
> game isn't exactly rodent-themed, but that can all change... :)

Didn't you say all our advice would "be ways to make the game more fun
for them but less fun for me."? It sounds like you think Joseph's
advice of adding giant robots and rabbits would make it more fun for
you as well.

-RabidCow

Amy Wang

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Jan 8, 2003, 9:26:42 PM1/8/03
to
lich...@popmail.com (Lichen678) wrote in message news:<f6ec22c7.03010...@posting.google.com>...

>
> Excuse me? Reduce the number of roguelike games available?
> A lack of an increase in the number of games available is rather
> different from a reduction. You make it out as if people are somehow
> harming roguelike gamers by trying to make new games and failing, or
> taking a very long time about it.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If everyone who had ever tried to
make a roguelike game (other than Rogue) was an idiot like ShockFrost,
there would be no roguelike genre.

Amy Wang

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Jan 8, 2003, 10:00:21 PM1/8/03
to
rabid...@yahoo.com (RabidCow) wrote in message news:<34683370.03010...@posting.google.com>...
> blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang) wrote in message news:<62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > I'm not saying that you're ShockFrost (me and Anubis know the truth
> > :)). I'm saying that you have the same design principles as him.
>
> I do? I wrote out everything I was going to put in my game in my first
> post, and that's what's going in the game, nothing more, nothing less.
> I discuss these ideas to get a clearer picture of the details before
> jumping in and implementing them, not to come up with more and more
> ideas that end up leading to dropping the project.

You were kind enough to put your ideas into a list. I'll give you that
much. However, they are still vague ideas that will obviously take an
inhuman level of effort to implement and aren't convincing in their
fun factor. In terms of "design principles", though, you're still
coming to this group with the notion that ideas taken from people who
have no real idea what you're trying to design are better than your
own ideas.

If you merely designed and implemented your ideas in the simplest way
possible, you'd have my respect. Instead, you're depending on a group
of burnouts to replace your creativity. Let's look at your idea's
thread. You got five original responses:

1. Pointing out that one of your ideas isn't entirely original
2. Silly ways of making the game more complex and less fun *that you
fall for*
3. A tease for having grand ideas that we all know you can't implement
4. Pointing out that none of your ideas are truly original, but are
simply the same pipe dream that everyone's throwinging around
5. Something that should have actually been helpful: telling you to
implement a roguelike skeleton before you get too excited, and *do
some design* so you can decide which features are actually good for
the game and which are merely a pathetic attempt at simming-up a
dungeon crawl. In short, think for yourself.

Every newbie developer should read chor's post (since actually taking
a software development course is too much to ask). If you follow the
advice in that, you can make the game without any 'help' from RGRD. If
you lack confidence in your own creativity and abilities so much that
you need this group to turn your ideas into design, then you don't
have any business making games anyways.

> I have the design, talent, AND patience (in fact people pushing me
> tends to make me less patient). None of these things, however is
> absolutely necessary to create a roguelike. What one needs is
> perserverance - something mysteriously absent from your list of things
> I don't have.

Oh, there's plenty of things I left out.

> So your idea of entertainment is insulting people and watching them
> fail? That's sad.

I tried the "not insulting people and watching them succeed" idea, but
that didn't pan out since successful roguelikes generally aren't what
come out of this group.

David Damerell

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Jan 9, 2003, 12:39:21 AM1/9/03
to
DarkGod <dar...@ifrance.com> wrote:
>>They're egotistical, and won't work together because of their need for
>>"creative control". If a few people here started a group, we'd see a
>>lot more roguelike games.
>So what ? They will fail, or succeed, why does it bothers you?

Consideration of the number of people who succeeded with the original
versions of Rogue, Hack, Moria and Crawl here will be an interesting
illustration of why Amy is full of it... as usual.

--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!

Lichen678

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Jan 9, 2003, 6:54:40 AM1/9/03
to
blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang) wrote in message news:<62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com>...

No-one with half a brain is disputing this. It is irrelevant to what I
said because I was drawing the distinction between hindering and
failing to help. People failing to create roguelikes does not prevent
other people from succeeding, nor does it remove past successes. You
don't create more successes by crushing the people who are likely to
fail early.
The fact is that most roguelike projects, like most software projects,
will fail. But the more help and encouragement and inspiration people
get, the more might succeed. Your ideas may have great merit, but if
you present them with all the negativity and exclusiveness that you
seem to like, you will only alienate and discourage people, resulting
in less successes.

--jude.

Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz

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Jan 9, 2003, 11:48:19 AM1/9/03
to
Użytkownik "DarkGod" <dar...@ifrance.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:3e1b7e69...@news.cis.dfn.de...

> On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 01:16:47 +0100, "Kornel \"Anubis\" Kisielewicz"
> <anu...@felis7.civ.pl> wrote:
>
> >> And what kind of response were YOU expecting when you posted your
> >> flame?
> >Note that the first person to flame somebody, per se, was Rick. Of
> >course we all know that Amy's position is quite radical, still she
> >doesn't produce flames. Why? Because all of her argument's are
actualy
> >rational...
> Rational arguments thrown harsly at everything that moves sounds
like
> flaming to me..

Still rational arguments hurt the most, when there's a degree of truth
in them. And from my own experience, I know, how much it would help me
if I would stumble across Amy eight years ago, and listened to her. It
would save me from making many mistakes...

> >That's an unfair argument, DarkGod :).
> Why so? She do seem to think she is superior, see she doesnt even
want
> to show us her great game...

Did she ever tell you that the game she does is great?

> wait maybe she doesvaporware too ? mhh
> naaa ;)

Maybe. But she's not spamming about it the whole newsgroup contrary to
many others. On the same note, GenRogue may be vaporware, right? Can
you point me at least one person that saw a GenRogue beta? No. And
still, you all didn't eat me alive when I started to point out the
same problems to Schockfrost ans Amy does. Of course, I was a little
more non-offensive :).

> >> PS: Dont bother saying I should go write a game, I already did,
and
> >it
> >> is played by many, thank you
> >Oh yes you did... ;)
> >But don't be SOOO proud, you made a _variant_, not a game :).
Making a
> Actually quite a few people would tell you it started as a variant
and
> turned into a game. As for my opinion on the matter, well it shall
> remain hidden :)

Well in the dephts there's still Angband. Of course there are many
changes. But people that don't like Angband, don't like TOME. For
example I don't like many of the base assumptions of the Angband code.
That's why, despite Tome being a great game, I don't like it. Because
it follows most of the things I didn't like in Angband. And the things
that I don't like in angband, are the most basic assumptionts, that
couldn't be changet without a coplete rewrite. That's the difference
between a variant and a game. And that's why I don't make variants...

> >variant is easier. Especialy that you didn't have the problems that
> >most of the people that unconsciously spam vapourware have -- those
> >people can show nothing. You could show a whole game even after
> >changing a couple lines of code... So from Amy's point of view, it
> Not really, changing a few line of code doesnt make a new game. It
is
> called a small patch :)

Ok, ok, but you get the idea, I hope.

> Well I made quite a few other games from scrath before ToME. But
they
> dont exactly work on modern computers anymore :(

Can you show me any of those? I have a working Commodore at home, a
working Spectrum, and a working 286/386... (don't ask me why I hold
all this junk :)

> They werent RL either but still quite complex :) But this is beside
> the point anyway

What kind of games? I'm truly interested.

P.S. Could you do me a favor, please? Could you post a news to YARNS
about tome, each time you post one on announce? The content may be the
same. It would make my life much easier :(. Or at least find someone
that would be able to do that for you..

i0lanthe

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Jan 9, 2003, 1:08:25 PM1/9/03
to
kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote in message news:<slrnb1ncdh.1...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>...

> Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:28:53 GMT, DarkGod <dar...@ifrance.com>:
> > On 7 Jan 2003 12:52:20 -0800, blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang)
> > wrote:
> >>> PS: Dont bother saying I should go write a game, I already did, and it
> >>> is played by many, thank you
> >>In case you haven't noticed, I'm the only person here who doesn't use
> >>that tactic in order to defuse someone's argument. Thank you, though,
> >>for using it on me.
>
> Of course you don't use that argument--you've never written a game.
>
> > Then you should not flame people beacuse they dont (yet or not) have a
> > game to show to the world.
>
> Wang's a troll. She'll never release a game of any kind. She's just
> here to stir up trouble and piss people off by telling them "don't
> bother developing a game".

What I wonder is, why haven't more people killfiled her? Do their
newsreaders not support it or something?

copx

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Jan 9, 2003, 1:49:13 PM1/9/03
to

"Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz" <anu...@felis7.civ.pl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:avkd08$dan$4...@news.tpi.pl...

> What kind of games? I'm truly interested.
>
> P.S. Could you do me a favor, please? Could you post a news to YARNS
> about tome, each time you post one on announce? The content may be the
> same. It would make my life much easier :(. Or at least find someone
> that would be able to do that for you..

Hello, forgot about me? I do the *band news reporting
for YARNS and I haven't missed any release so far..

Rick C

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Jan 9, 2003, 1:51:31 PM1/9/03
to
"i0lanthe" <i0la...@yahoo.com> wrote

> What I wonder is, why haven't more people killfiled her? Do their
> newsreaders not support it or something?

Masochism?


DarkGod

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Jan 9, 2003, 6:52:40 PM1/9/03
to
On 9 Jan 2003 10:08:25 -0800, i0la...@yahoo.com (i0lanthe) wrote:

>> Wang's a troll. She'll never release a game of any kind. She's just
>> here to stir up trouble and piss people off by telling them "don't
>> bother developing a game".
>What I wonder is, why haven't more people killfiled her? Do their
>newsreaders not support it or something?

Hehe :) But she is a fun troll .. :)

Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz

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Jan 9, 2003, 3:48:50 PM1/9/03
to
Użytkownik "copx" <inv...@dd.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:3e1dc421$0$15985$9b4e...@newsread4.arcor-online.net...

>
> "Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz" <anu...@felis7.civ.pl> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag
> news:avkd08$dan$4...@news.tpi.pl...
> > What kind of games? I'm truly interested.
> >
> > P.S. Could you do me a favor, please? Could you post a news to
YARNS
> > about tome, each time you post one on announce? The content may be
the
> > same. It would make my life much easier :(. Or at least find
someone
> > that would be able to do that for you..
>
> Hello, forgot about me?

No :).

> I do the *band news reporting
> for YARNS and I haven't missed any release so far..

You missed Tome 2.1.0 I don't know why...

BTW, I wanted to thank you for all the work done so far :). Now one
can believe that YARNS actualy may be self-sufficient...

Oh, and another thing -- could you do one bit of formating for me
before you add a news? I mean change all

http://www.blah.org/

to

<a href="http://www.blah.org/">http://www.blah.org/</a>
??

thanks,

copx

unread,
Jan 9, 2003, 8:49:57 PM1/9/03
to

"Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz" <anu...@felis7.civ.pl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:avl2mr$s3b$2...@news.tpi.pl...

> Użytkownik "copx" <inv...@dd.com> napisał w wiadomości
> news:3e1dc421$0$15985$9b4e...@newsread4.arcor-online.net...
> >
> > "Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz" <anu...@felis7.civ.pl> schrieb im
> Newsbeitrag
> > news:avkd08$dan$4...@news.tpi.pl...
> > > What kind of games? I'm truly interested.
> > >
> > > P.S. Could you do me a favor, please? Could you post a news to
> YARNS
> > > about tome, each time you post one on announce? The content may be
> the
> > > same. It would make my life much easier :(. Or at least find
> someone
> > > that would be able to do that for you..
> >
> > Hello, forgot about me?
>
> No :).
>
> > I do the *band news reporting
> > for YARNS and I haven't missed any release so far..
>
> You missed Tome 2.1.0 I don't know why...

I didn't! I started reporting quite a few days
AFTER ToME 2.1.0 was released. I didn't
miss a single release SINCE I STARTED.

> Oh, and another thing -- could you do one bit of formating for me
> before you add a news? I mean change all
>
> http://www.blah.org/
>
> to
>
> <a href="http://www.blah.org/">http://www.blah.org/</a>
> ??

Ok, I thought your site-scripts would do
such stuff automatically.

Brendan Sechter

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Jan 9, 2003, 9:20:07 PM1/9/03
to
In article <62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com>, Amy Wang wrote:
>
> I tried the "not insulting people and watching them succeed" idea, but
> that didn't pan out since successful roguelikes generally aren't what
> come out of this group.

So what exactly does come out of this group?

-Brendan

Hansjörg Malthaner

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Jan 10, 2003, 3:22:02 AM1/10/03
to
i0lanthe schrieb:

> kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote in message news:<slrnb1ncdh.1...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>...
>
>>Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:28:53 GMT, DarkGod <dar...@ifrance.com>:
>>
>>>On 7 Jan 2003 12:52:20 -0800, blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang)
>
>> Wang's a troll. She'll never release a game of any kind. She's just
>>here to stir up trouble and piss people off by telling them "don't
>>bother developing a game".
>
> What I wonder is, why haven't more people killfiled her? Do their
> newsreaders not support it or something?

She doesn't really bother me.

But still I think just excluding somone from your view does not solve
the problem.

c.u.
Hajo

Gerry Quinn

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Jan 10, 2003, 5:44:50 AM1/10/03
to

Speaking for myself, I wrote half a roguelike / RPG at one time, and I
just might do one sometime. I like to think about it anyway, and
discuss interesting and sometimes wacky design ideas. And hopefully
some people who are really making roguelikes get some inspiration or
ideas.

Gerry Quinn
--
http://bindweed.com
Entertainment software for Windows
Puzzles, Strategy Games, Kaleidoscope Screensaver
Download evaluation versions free - no time limits

RabidCow

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Jan 10, 2003, 1:50:11 PM1/10/03
to
Hmm... I replied to this earlier, but apparently my message died
before reaching the server. Damn google groups - just wait till I get
back on campus so I can use a REAL news server (damn the sysadmins who
make the server only work from on campus too)! Oh well... I'm in a
good mood right now, so maybe I'll be a bit less hostile this time
around.

> > > I'm not saying that you're ShockFrost (me and Anubis know the truth
> > > :)). I'm saying that you have the same design principles as him.
> >
> > I do? I wrote out everything I was going to put in my game in my first
> > post, and that's what's going in the game, nothing more, nothing less.
> > I discuss these ideas to get a clearer picture of the details before
> > jumping in and implementing them, not to come up with more and more
> > ideas that end up leading to dropping the project.
>
> You were kind enough to put your ideas into a list. I'll give you that
> much. However, they are still vague ideas that will obviously take an
> inhuman level of effort to implement

I agree that most of my ideas would take an extreme level of effort to
implement... but not inhuman. It's possible, just difficult.

> and aren't convincing in their fun factor.

I was under the impression that my ideas were quite convincing in
their fun factor. After all, most of them are part of just about
everybody's "dream roguelike". But even if they aren't, I'm convinced
that its fun, and since I'm the only one developing the project, I'm
the only one that needs to be convinced. Everybody else can be
convinced when I'm done and they get to play it.

> In terms of "design principles", though, you're still
> coming to this group with the notion that ideas taken from people who
> have no real idea what you're trying to design

I'm trying to design a roguelike that focuses on plot and character
interaction. I've stated that before, and that's all one needs to know
to generate ideas I might find useful.

> are better than your own ideas.

While it certianly is possible for someone else to generate ideas
better than my own, I haven't seen many of those lately. More likely
is the idea that is just a different way of doing something that I've
already considered.

>
> If you merely designed and implemented your ideas in the simplest way
> possible, you'd have my respect.

Then I guess I should have your respect, as that's what I'm doing.

> Instead, you're depending on a group
> of burnouts to replace your creativity.

There are a lot of people here who aren't burnouts. Also, they don't
replace my creativity. If anything, they augment it by providing me
with ideas that I haven't yet considered.

> Let's look at your idea's
> thread. You got five original responses:

A very unproductive thread that was. It seems that people like
ShockFrost, who are so full of ideas that they'll never implement any
of them, are the ones who get all the productive threads.

>
> 1. Pointing out that one of your ideas isn't entirely original
> 2. Silly ways of making the game more complex and less fun *that you
> fall for*

Almost any thread is bound to contain a few of these, but I don't
recall falling for any of them.

> 3. A tease for having grand ideas that we all know you can't implement

You _think_ I can't implement them, just as I think I can. Whether I
can or not hasn't been proven.

> 4. Pointing out that none of your ideas are truly original, but are
> simply the same pipe dream that everyone's throwinging around

Isn't that the same as the first point?

> 5. Something that should have actually been helpful: telling you to
> implement a roguelike skeleton before you get too excited,

I was in the process of making a skeleton when I made that first post,
actually. I hadn't yet written any code, as I was still in the "work
through ideas on paper or else program will be suicidally complex"
phase, but I was making it.

> and *do
> some design* so you can decide which features are actually good for
> the game and which are merely a pathetic attempt at simming-up a
> dungeon crawl. In short, think for yourself.

I had already done enough design to decide which features would be
good for the game before posting. Any further design would be trying
to figure out how to implement any of those features.

>
> Every newbie developer should read chor's post (since actually taking
> a software development course is too much to ask).

I'm working on a BS in computer science, and as part of that, I have
taken a few software development courses.

> If you follow the
> advice in that, you can make the game without any 'help' from RGRD.

You make it sound like one of those support groups that helps people
with addictions. Perhaps RGRD should be RBA instead - roguelike
burnouts anonymous.

> If
> you lack confidence in your own creativity and abilities

I have plenty of confidence in my creativity and abilities. If I
wasn't confident that I actually could make a roguelike, I wouldn't be
trying to make one.

> so much that
> you need this group to turn your ideas into design, then you don't
> have any business making games anyways.

I don't need this groupd to turn my ideas into design. I don't _need_
them for anything. I find the exchange of ideas entertaining, and even
useful sometimes.

It used to also be a place where I could expect encouragement and
constructive criticism. Recently, however, it has become a breeding
place for assholes who shoot down ideas (both good and bad ones) with
their excessive sarcasm and negativity, because they are safe from
physical violence as they sit at their computers typing away.

>
> > I have the design, talent, AND patience (in fact people pushing me
> > tends to make me less patient). None of these things, however is
> > absolutely necessary to create a roguelike. What one needs is
> > perserverance - something mysteriously absent from your list of things
> > I don't have.
>
> Oh, there's plenty of things I left out.

Now you're just being an ass.

>
> > So your idea of entertainment is insulting people and watching them
> > fail? That's sad.
>
> I tried the "not insulting people and watching them succeed" idea, but
> that didn't pan out

Always with the watching. Watching does not affect the flow of
roguelikes from the river called RGRD. Change comes as a result of
interaction. Perhaps if you changed "watching" to "helping" you might
see a result.

> since successful roguelikes generally aren't what
> come out of this group.

So in your opinion, what DOES come out of this group? If you don't
expect there to be a new game for you to play, and if you're not
involving the group in your own roguelike, then what reason do you
have to be here?

Well I started off in a good mood, and now I'm mad again. I should
have known better than to reply to an Amy Wang post. Oh well. Back to
impleminting items and inventory - finishing that should cheer me up.

-RabidCow

Julian C Day

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Jan 10, 2003, 1:53:07 PM1/10/03
to
Gerry Quinn <ger...@indigo.ie> wrote:
> In article <slrnb1sben...@granicus.if.org>, sg...@granicus.if.org (Brendan Sechter) wrote:
>>In article <62acd54d.03010...@posting.google.com>, Amy Wang wrote:
>>>
>>> I tried the "not insulting people and watching them succeed" idea, but
>>> that didn't pan out since successful roguelikes generally aren't what
>>> come out of this group.
>>
>>So what exactly does come out of this group?

> Speaking for myself, I wrote half a roguelike / RPG at one time, and I
> just might do one sometime. I like to think about it anyway, and
> discuss interesting and sometimes wacky design ideas. And hopefully
> some people who are really making roguelikes get some inspiration or
> ideas.

That's the same thing I'm doing. I've got a half a roguelike on my hard
drive, written in C. You can create a character, move around an abandoned
village, descend into the 100-level catacombs, pick up and drop items, and
look at terrain features. Nothing special, really. I had a lot of ideas
I felt were great, but found C difficult to work with - I really don't like
having to deal with manual memory management.

So I've been planning to do a re-write in some other language which hides
those details away from me, probably Java, though Eiffel's a possibility.
I like to come and read articles on things people are trying, what's
working and what's not, etc.

Once I get some free time and a good tutorial on doing graphics (this
summer?), I should start Yet Another Roguelike. I've done skeletons to
a couple so far, and I've learned a lot from both.

Julian

someog

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Jan 10, 2003, 2:01:03 PM1/10/03
to
> It used to also be a place where I could expect encouragement and
> constructive criticism. Recently, however, it has become a breeding
> place for assholes who shoot down ideas (both good and bad ones) with
> their excessive sarcasm and negativity, because they are safe from
> physical violence as they sit at their computers typing away.

You guys' sniping is always amusing to read -- good comic relief. But RC,
don't you think this goes a little far? Are you saying Amy wouldn't dare
say this for fear of physical violence if in your presence? If I attended
your school, would you attack me for saying such things? Probably not,
since I'm a rather big man; would you if I were a small woman? No, you're
just trading deft riposte for empty bluster.

If you bit Amy, would she get mad cow disease?

-David


Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz

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Jan 10, 2003, 3:40:16 PM1/10/03
to
Użytkownik "copx" <inv...@dd.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:3e1e26ba$0$15982$9b4e...@newsread4.arcor-online.net...

> "Kornel "Anubis" Kisielewicz" <anu...@felis7.civ.pl> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag
> news:avl2mr$s3b$2...@news.tpi.pl...
> > > I do the *band news reporting
> > > for YARNS and I haven't missed any release so far..
> >
> > You missed Tome 2.1.0 I don't know why...
>
> I didn't! I started reporting quite a few days
> AFTER ToME 2.1.0 was released. I didn't
> miss a single release SINCE I STARTED.

Ok, ok, I'm sorry, my mistake :). DarkGod -- you don't have to post, I
can count on copx to do that :).

> > Oh, and another thing -- could you do one bit of formating for me
> > before you add a news? I mean change all
> > http://www.blah.org/
> > to
> > <a href="http://www.blah.org/">http://www.blah.org/</a>
> > ??
>
> Ok, I thought your site-scripts would do
> such stuff automatically.

Thanks,

Paul Pekkarinen

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 5:52:06 PM1/10/03
to
blueme...@hotmail.com (Amy Wang) wrote in message
> They're egotistical, and won't work together because of their need for
> "creative control". If a few people here started a group, we'd see a
> lot more roguelike games.

The creative control is actually an important thing, but there are other
problems when you try to make a group.. I think you would know that
if you ever had tried to create a team.

> They fail to realize that their pipe dream ideas would constitute one
> of the most complicated games ever. And yet, they think that a single
> novice programmer should be able to implement a series of vague ideas.

Roguelike can be made with quite simple code. It's up to the programmer
how he (or she) implements various things. The hard part is the huge
amount of work roguelike requires, not the complexity of the code.

> The few that are
> original are so poorly thought out that it should be obvious that any
> implementation would detract from the fun of the game.

Why the ideas should be original in the first place? You can make a good
game without any original ideas.

> My game? I have an early-alpha roguelike that's not in development,
> and a text-based non-roguelike that's nearing beta. Neither of them
> will be released to a group of dungeon crawling MUD/RPG burn-outs that
> are already rabidly hostile to my honesty.

Most of us have a homepage with some info about their game. I wonder if
you have?

RabidCow

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 10:07:21 PM1/10/03
to
"someog" <som...@mailcity.com> wrote in message news:<avn58f$hcqle$1...@ID-175339.news.dfncis.de>...

Hmm... guess I asked for that. When I look at the whole thing from a
perspective not my own, it is rather amusing. It's also stupid and
childish. I feel, however, that I should point out that all this
bickering is motivating me to prover her wrong by finishing my
roguelike.

And I agree it's going a bit far. I appoligize to anyone I may have
offended and promise that I will try and make any further insults
based in reality.

As far as physical violence from myself, I'm not a big man (tall, but
not 'big'), and I'm a pacifist. Any abuse from me is mostly verbal and
rarely physical. I usually leave the room before somebody angers me to
the point of physical violence.

>
> If you bit Amy, would she get mad cow disease?

In my world, yes. In real life, probably not.

>
> -David

-RabidCow

ABCGi

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Jan 12, 2003, 2:15:35 AM1/12/03
to
dar...@ifrance.com (DarkGod) wrote in news:3e1b4bbf.33340521
@news.cis.dfn.de:

>>They think that roguelike games are so easy to implement that doing so
>>is a good first project for a first year CS student.


> So what ? They will fail, or succeed, why does it bothers you?

> If it fails it will be their failure, not yours.
>

here here... get that monkey off your back and relax.

--
"Loving kindness, warm hearts and a, "Life is mostly froth and bubble,
Stretched out hand of tolerance, Two things stand like stone,
All the shining gifts, Kindness in another's trouble,
That make peace on Earth." - tBW And courage in your own." - ALG

R Dan Henry

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Jan 28, 2003, 2:11:52 AM1/28/03
to
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:51:31 -0500, in a fit of madness "Rick C"
<pixe...@hotmail.com> declared:

Can't be. I'm a masochist [1] and I have her killfiled.

[1] I don't cheat by savescumming. According to noted non-flaming
psychological expert Doctor Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes, that makes me a
masochist.

--
R. Dan Henry
rdan...@earthlink.net
They can have my ASCII graphics when they pry them
from my cold dead (c) and (d) slots.

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes

unread,
Jan 28, 2003, 2:30:27 AM1/28/03
to
Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:11:52 GMT, R Dan Henry <rdan...@earthlink.net>:

> On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:51:31 -0500, in a fit of madness "Rick C"
><pixe...@hotmail.com> declared:
>>"i0lanthe" <i0la...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>> What I wonder is, why haven't more people killfiled her? Do their
>>> newsreaders not support it or something?
>>Masochism?
> Can't be. I'm a masochist [1] and I have her killfiled.
>[1] I don't cheat by savescumming. According to noted non-flaming
> psychological expert Doctor Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes, that makes me a
> masochist.

I don't cheat by savescumming, either. I reenable saving in games
that inexplicably fail to support that feature. There's very poor
quality assurance in roguelikes, it's a common bug.

You think it's appropriate to villify anyone who wants a reasonable
feature like saving as a "cheater". I think it's appropriate to
identify people who like that as "masochists". Don't like the taste of
your own medicine, Dan?

--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"We remain convinced that this is the best defensive posture to adopt in
order to minimize casualties when the Great Old Ones return from beyond
the stars to eat our brains." -Charlie Stross, _The Concrete Jungle_

R Dan Henry

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Jan 28, 2003, 3:49:29 AM1/28/03