7dRL success: Escape from Lab 42
rdc
the Win32 exe and FreeBasic sources from my skydrive:
http://cid-bcdbe1b9697ff5dc.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/lab42/lab42.zip
It would have been nice to have some more time to test, but that is what
this challenge is all about. I have included a readme in the zip file that
gives a quick explanation of the game. You probably don't need it since the
game is very simple.
I *think* everything is working, which just means I didn't have time to find
all the bugs. :)
--
Rick Clark
Clark Productions: http://rickclark58.googlepages.com/
legend....@gmail.com
> Here is my entry for the 7DRL Challenge: Escape from Lab 42. You can grab
> the Win32 exe and FreeBasic sources from my skydrive:
>
Oh snap. The combat is real time. I have only played turn based
roguelikes in the past. Sweet.
- Legend of Angband
http://legend-angband.blogspot.com/
rdc
drive it is in the same location. He is running Ubuntu, which seems to have
problems with the program. Not being a Penguin guy, I am not sure what the
problem may be. Others don't seem to be having a problem, and it works fine
on my Vista and old NT box. FreeBasic is *supposed* to be cross-platform,
but you never know.
Cymon
The good:
I love it, tho the commitment to play such a simplest premise for an
hour doesn't thrill. (After writing that I went on to play 38 minutes
without realizing it.) Love the inventory system. This is the first
roguelike where I felt compelled to close doors. The first time I
found a dead end room with 4 zombies in it I made sure to have a
finger on the 'C' key at all times. Of course that went out the window
the when I had 3 nanostim(100)s in my inventory. At that point I was
zooming across the map without regard to doors or encounters.
I liked the locator. At first I had qualms with the fact that it
demanded being held, but I got used to the idea pretty quickly. The
only complaint I have is that items I've left behind don't show on the
map. Granted there'd be no way really to tell the difference between
ammo I didn't have room to carry and a broom handle, but that would be
okay if only I had a marker for where they were.
The bad:
Playing on my laptop I didn't have the numberpad available to me, and
the game didn't support alternate navigation except the arrow keys so
I was limited to up, down, left, and right. Since most of the level is
oriented in n/s, e/w halls that wasn't much of a disadvantage, still
it was annoying at times when in an open room I was getting raped by 3
zombies at my diagonal that I couldn't attack until I led them into
the hall, which is generally a good strategy anyways. Still, having
qwe,ad,zxc or the cryptic VI key available would have been nice, tho I
can see how that may be limited by the targeting system.
The targeting system, by the way, left a bit to be desired. After I
turned it on I had no idea what key to hit (dispite the zombie being
marked with a big yellow 'a') so I pounded the 'f' ("fire?") until
depleted the ammo. Once the ammo was depleted I couldn't pick anything
up until I discovered that it was because the targeting system being
on overrode most of the other key's functions. It was a frustrating
lesson to learn, and I can see how it would limit alternate movement
schemes. I got past it and it didn't kill me, but I think simply
appending the message about no ammo or weapon with "Turn off
targetting ('t')" or even better that turned it off automatically
wouldn't be amiss. Also, perhaps limiting the targeting keys to keys
that don't get in the way of alternate movement schemes like "nm,./".
I'm always in favor of choosing keys based on keyboard location rather
than initials, but that may just be me.
The messaging system was something else that needed help. In a real
time game like this 3 lines just isn't enough. This is where audio
feedback would benefit this game greatly. The game would be greatly
improved if I could hear the messages via short audio clips of hitting
the monsters, getting hit, missing a shot, wild shots (because I hit
'f' instead of 'a' or 'b'), landing a shot, or running out of ammo,
and the rest.
Overall:
Despite my nitpicking it's a game that's easy to pick up and play.
Graphics and real time game play, I got the sense that this game was
almost begging for graphics an non-tile based movement. That and
sound, this would almost be worthy of a commercial release.
Simple to learn and fun for at least the first 30 minutes. After that
I found the lack of immersion made the hunt for the access code and
the exit somewhat boring, especially considering the large size of the
maps. I was zipping around, locator in one hand, 2 pound sledge hammer
in the other, three nanostims in my inventory, wondering where the
challenge went and wondering if I was going to make it to make it out
of area 42 in time or if I was still going to come up short after an
hour of play. I guess an hour is a bit long to wait for a
reward,especally with the looming chance of a kick to the groin at the
end instead, tho that may just be my preference for coffee break
games. I would have preferred this game have levels a quarter or a
ninth the size and a 15 minute time limit. I may suggest you add a
coffee break mode that promises quicker play but to keep the incentive
to play the bigger game state that the coffee break version doesn't
have the locator, melee weapons, or 100 point health packs.
rdc
<Good comments and review>
I appreciate you trying out the game, and your comments and review.
Definitely things to consider when I revisit this.
Michael Dürwald
> Here is my entry for the 7DRL Challenge: Escape from Lab 42. You can grab
> the Win32 exe and FreeBasic sources from my skydrive:
>
> http://cid-bcdbe1b9697ff5dc.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/lab42/lab42.zip
>
> It would have been nice to have some more time to test, but that is what
> this challenge is all about. I have included a readme in the zip file that
> gives a quick explanation of the game. You probably don't need it since the
> game is very simple.
>
> I *think* everything is working, which just means I didn't have time to find
> all the bugs. :)
>
Well, i really looked forward to this...
Started it, played around and stopped it... got some slowdowns??
Targetting system is evil... i turn it on, and current visible zombie
get assigned a char, new ones not. Messaging system does not fit into
the realtime setting - needs at least sound.
This game is definitely forced to be 'roguelike' with ascii,
key-interface, a message pane etc, but everything not fitting.
My advice: Scrap the game in its current state and redo it with at least
2d top-down graphics (maybe even ascii bitmaps), non tilebased movement,
sound and mousesupport. Don't give it up, i like it, but make it what it
deserves!
rdc
> My advice: Scrap the game in its current state and redo it with at least
> 2d top-down graphics (maybe even ascii bitmaps), non tilebased movement,
> sound and mousesupport. Don't give it up, i like it, but make it what it
> deserves!
Thanks for trying it out and your thoughts on the game.
rdc
> I may suggest you add a
> coffee break mode that promises quicker play but to keep the incentive
> to play the bigger game state that the coffee break version doesn't
> have the locator, melee weapons, or 100 point health packs.
For version .2, I have made these changes:
1) Targeting system automatically turns off when all targets have been
killed. I should have put this in .1, but it just wasn't something I thought
about.
2) Levels have been reduced in size, although there are still 10 levels.
3) The game time limit has been reduced to 30 minutes.
4) Items are now displayed according to class and type. The color denotes
the class, while the icon denotes the type.
5) The nanostim has been removed.
Things to add:
1) Sound effects to denote certain actions; I.e. a click when you try to
fire and have no ammo. Can be turned off and on.
2) Visual indicator when you hit a zombie. The zombie will change color
briefly when hit and not killed.
3) The weapons need to be revamped. The pistol and shotgun are ok I think,
but the melee weapons need to be changed. They are kind of dumb now. Having
only 7 days makes you grasp at the first thought. :)
There has been some mention of background music so I might look into that. I
am afraid it might be a bit too distracting and interfere with the audio
cues, but I could make it an option. I am also looking at the possibility of
making the access code hunt more objective based. For example, instead of
having the access code somewhere on the level, it may be on a zombie that
you would have to find and kill. The zombie would be easily identified by
having a different color or some such scheme. The objective would be
displayed before you enter the level so you know what you need to do.
Of course, I also want to go through this some more and adjust the balance
of the game and track down any hidden bugs that may still be in the code.
I'll post a link to the new version when I feel confident that it is in a
stable condition.
The targeting system has been an interesting experiment. It looks like, so
far at least, you either like it or hate it. :) Personally, I think it works
quite well for this type of game. It would simply be too cumbersome to move
a cursor around the map while a pack of zombies are coming at you. You have
to be able to target and fire quickly in a real time game without wasting
time. I actually think this method is much better than the mouse targeting
systems I have tried, since pressing a letter is much easier (at least for
me) than trying to hit an ascii character with the mouse cursor. I am going
to leave the current system in place since I feel it is a good solution in
this particular case.
A few people have been confused by the targeting system, even though I
explained it in the readme, and to me it seemed quite obvious what you need
to do. Press t, you see a letter, you press the letter to shoot. It just
shows that someone other the programmer should play the game. What is
obvious to the programmer may not be to the player.
For about 30 hours of work, I think this turned out pretty good. I honestly
did not think the game would be received all that well, especially
considering this is only my second completed RL game, but the positive
comments are running ahead of the negative, so for me, this is a personal
win.
Thanks to everyone for the feedback.
Cymon
I'm glad you didn't just toss this one into the void and forget about
it. I've written a review of this game on my site. You can read it
here, tho you've already read a bit of it above:
http://cymonsgames.retroremakes.com/2009-7drl-escape-from-lab-42/
rdc
> I'm glad you didn't just toss this one into the void and forget about
> it. I've written a review of this game on my site. You can read it
> here, tho you've already read a bit of it above:
>
> http://cymonsgames.retroremakes.com/2009-7drl-escape-from-lab-42/
Thanks for the nice review. I posted version .2 in the announce newsgroup
that incorporates some of your suggested changes. I hope that it makes for a
better game experience. It still isn't quite there yet, but I will continue
to work on this ironing out the game play.
rdc
what you need from the lab42 folder on my Skydrive if you are interested.
http://cid-bcdbe1b9697ff5dc.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.Public/lab42
Change Log:
Escape From Lab 42 Change Log: Current Version 0.2
3/15/2009 See file readme42.txt for complete information.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Targeting now automatically switches off when all targets have been
eliminated or weapon is out of ammo, or target has moved out of view. If
you are not holding a projectile weapon or the weapon is out of ammo,
pressing the t key will have no effect.
2. Items are now represented by a character and each class has its own
color scheme. See readme for details.
3. Removed Mersenne Twister code as FB uses the MT algo internally.
4. Map size has been reduced.
5. Time limit has been changed to 30 minutes.
6. Added alternate key set for movement for those without a numeric keypad:
o p [ See readme for additional movement options.
\|/
l- -;
/|\
, . /
7. You start off with relatively few zombies but the number of zombies
increases as you ascend levels.
8. Removed the Nanostim and Broom handle items.
9. Added morgue display and file. Generated file has the file name
efl42_mmddyyy_hhmms.txt
10. Added visual cue when zombie is successfully hit on head.
11. Tweaked game play to try and get the game a bit more balanced. Still
needs work in this area.
12. Updated readme42.txt with new/changed information.
3/13/2009
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Initial version released for 7DRL. 0.1
Here is best run so far:
Escape From Lab 42 Version 0.2
You died on level 2.
Time remaining: 11
Ending Inventory
Left Hand: 2lbs. Sledge
Right Hand: Locator
Head: Kevlar (64) Helmet
Body: Kev/Plate (116) Vest
Left Arm: None
Right Arm: None
Left Hand: Kevlar (18) L Hand
Right Hand: Kevlar (7) R Hand
Left Leg: Kevlar (5) L Leg
Right Leg: None
Left Foot: None
Right Foot: Kevlar (14) R Foot
Slot 1: None
Slot 2: None
Slot 3: None
Slot 4: None
Level Guard Killed Civis Killed Start Time End time Total Time
10 3 1 11:10:29 11:12:33 2 min
09 4 9 11:12:33 11:15:51 3 min
08 4 3 11:15:51 11:18:17 2 min
07 3 9 11:18:17 11:19:52 1 min
06 6 6 11:19:52 11:21:42 1 min
05 12 8 11:21:42 11:23:39 1 min
04 12 12 11:23:39 11:27:09 3 min
03 6 8 11:27:09 11:29:24 2 min
02 0 3 11:29:24 11:29:36 0 min
kaw
> I have put Win32 and Linux packages of version .02
> lab42 folder on my Skydrive if you are interested.
I was pretty much blown away -- the targeting system
certainly isn't the only cool thing about it. I normally
can't stand real-time roguelikes, but this one won me
over.
The danger of zombies corresponds very well to what
I've come to expect from zombie movies. Zs are slow
and stupid, and they're not very hard to tackle
individually, though sometimes you do run across one
that just won't go down easily. The problem, though,
is that there are many of them and only one of you.
If you consistently challenge them in melee, in the
long term you're going to lose because every little
hit they get in matters, and healing supplies are hard
to come by. Technology gives you the advantage of
range, but you simply don't have anywhere near
enough bullets to deal with all of them at range in
traditional roguelike fashion.
This means that, as far as I could figure out, the
optimal strategy is outwitting and outrunning.
At the first sign of a Z, you turn around, run like
hell and close the door behind you. Only when
you are very sure that there is no other
unexplored option do you actually confront
a zombie; by tricking it into an unimportant room
or corridor and trapping it there if this is
tactically possible, by tackling it at close
range if it is alone, gunning it down if you have
bullets to spare, or by running as quickly as you
can past it if no other option seems likely
to succeed.
I chose to go without a locator; inventory slots are
scarce and shotguns are very handy. I can see the
tradeoff, and I checked out the mini-map and thought
it looked neat, but I suspect going without one is
the "optimal" choice. My strategy for picking stuff
up was more or less that health packs and stim packs
got first priority, shotguns and ammunition got second,
handguns and ammunition got third. Armour I'd stop
to pick up only if I had time to spare, especially as it
was somewhat awkward to swap out. (I favoured the
sledgehammer for a while, but eventually gave up on
melee combat as too dangerous -- also, at those times
when it did come to that, the PC seemed to be
remarkably adept at just punching zombies apart.)
Subtle touches like not being able to see past
zombies add to the gameplay as well as being visually
interesting; having to fight in a corridor feels very
uncomfortable because you don't know quite when
you're finished.
Whether you find the keycode or the exit first is
of course just luck, but because you have to navigate
these maps quickly, the two options actually result
in levels with different "feels" - in one, you explore
as fast as you can without bothering to remember
where you came from or ever planning to return, while
in the other you're trying to keep a path to the exit
more or less free of zombies and clear in your memory.
30 minutes seems to be a perfect time limit; scarce
enough to keep it stressful, but enough that if you
waste no time, you will not actually run out of it.
I never lost on time, but when I finally managed to
finish it was with only two minutes to spare:
Escape From Lab 42 Version 0.2
You made it out!
Time remaining: 2
Ending Inventory
Left Hand: None
Right Hand: None
Head: None
Body: Kev/Plate (69) Vest
Left Arm: None
Right Arm: Kevlar (60) R Arm
Left Hand: None
Right Hand: None
Left Leg: None
Right Leg: None
Left Foot: None
Right Foot: None
Slot 1: Shotgun(0)
Slot 2: .45 Pistol (9)
Slot 3: Stimpack (10)
Slot 4: None
Level Guard Killed Civis Killed Start Time End time Total
Time
10 0 1 23:36:11 23:39:13 3 min
09 0 0 23:39:13 23:40:44 1 min
08 2 2 23:40:44 23:43:22 2 min
07 0 2 23:43:22 23:44:29 1 min
06 4 7 23:44:29 23:48:06 3 min
05 4 12 23:48:06 23:51:56 3 min
04 2 11 23:51:56 23:54:20 2 min
03 7 26 23:54:20 23:59:39 5 min
02 5 3 23:59:39 00:01:17 1 min
01 10 9 00:01:17 00:05:42 3 min
(I honestly can't remember why I wasn't wielding
anything at the time -- the last part of the game was
a mad dash towards the exit after securing the
keycode, apparently just punching down any zombies
in the way.)
While I feel that the good by far outweighs the bad
with this one, I also have a few quibbles.
Firstly, the inventory system seems awkward.
When you're playing a roguelike where time
matters, you should not have the same key
sometimes mean "use a health pack" and sometimes
mean "reload your shotgun". If you must use
slots, there should at least be an easy way of
rearranging them to your liking (e.g. F2 might
always be extra ammunition). As specific points
under this one, asking an extra question about
which hand to use when wielding a weapon in
some cases can be a nasty surprise in a heated
moment, and the large number of armour slots
feels like unnecessary complexity.
The keyboard input code seems to sometimes lose
a key when typing very quickly, e.g. when hitting F1
to heal up without actually stopping hitting the
numpad keys to run.
The 'c' representing the keycode is so important
that the character should not be shared; several
times I was confused by the other 'c' items,
especially 45-caliber ammunition.
Hitting Esc should not quit the game without saving
and without prompting for confirmation.
The game should do the countdown at second
resolution; if this makes the display too noisy, it
should at least be displayed in the endgame
summary for bragging rights.
I'm not sure what "guards" and "civis" refers to in
the endgame summary; are those "Z"s and "z"s?
I was unable to compile the game on Debian, or
rather I was able to do so, but the game segfaulted
when I tried to run it (as did the precompiled
version provided). Luckily, I got the Windows binary
to run under wine.
Lastly, and most radically, I'm not quite convinced
that this game actually needs to be real-time. If
you kept the (real-)time limit but introduced a
traditional turn-based system, I think that might
be enough pressure to keep the gameplay frantic
enough to be fun. I'm not quite sure about this
one, though, because in the game as released, I did
experience some nice moments where just securing
a quiet room to get a moment to think felt like
achieving a tangible advantage.
All that said, though, thanks for a well-made game. In
terms of fun, which is really all that matters, this was
the best game of this year's competition for me out
of all the ones I've tried.
-kaw
PS: I could hardly disagree more with the fellow who
feels you should rewrite this to be a non-roguelike
top-down mouse-based zombie shooter. I'm not impressed
by this game because I've never seen a top-down zombie
shooter before, but because it's a good game in its
own right. I feel it embodies much of what I like about
roguelikes, e.g. tactical "dances" with dangerous
monsters, constant fight-or-flight decisions, and so on.
Even the abstract "graphics" work very well; a faceless
zombie horde does not suffer much at at all from being
represented by ASCII characters. (If you had a
commercial-grade stable of artists I'm sure you could
do "better", but amateurish tiles would be a great leap
in the wrong direction.)
rdc
> I actually played this game for the first time today, and
> I was pretty much blown away -- the targeting system
> certainly isn't the only cool thing about it. I normally
> can't stand real-time roguelikes, but this one won me
> over.
Thank you for trying it out and the kind comments.
> This means that, as far as I could figure out, the
> optimal strategy is outwitting and outrunning.
Yes, that was my intent.
> I chose to go without a locator; inventory slots are
> scarce and shotguns are very handy. I can see the
> tradeoff, and I checked out the mini-map and thought
> it looked neat, but I suspect going without one is
> the "optimal" choice.
The only real need for the locator is to get a read on areas that may need
exploring if you haven't found the code or elevator, or if you forgot where
the elevator was located. I usually just switch it in and out when needed.
>
> Subtle touches like not being able to see past
> zombies add to the gameplay as well as being visually
> interesting; having to fight in a corridor feels very
> uncomfortable because you don't know quite when
> you're finished.
Yes, I have been surprised more than once by this. :)
> 30 minutes seems to be a perfect time limit; scarce
> enough to keep it stressful, but enough that if you
> waste no time, you will not actually run out of it.
> I never lost on time, but when I finally managed to
> finish it was with only two minutes to spare:
Good. 60 minutes was just too long and anything less than 30 didn't seem to
give enough time.
> Firstly, the inventory system seems awkward.
> When you're playing a roguelike where time
> matters, you should not have the same key
> sometimes mean "use a health pack" and sometimes
> mean "reload your shotgun". If you must use
> slots, there should at least be an easy way of
> rearranging them to your liking (e.g. F2 might
> always be extra ammunition).
Good point. This would be easy to implement and the the game could simply
scan the inv slots to see if you are carrying the needed items.
>As specific points
> under this one, asking an extra question about
> which hand to use when wielding a weapon in
> some cases can be a nasty surprise in a heated
> moment, and the large number of armour slots
> feels like unnecessary complexity.
Yes, but I didn't really know of any good alternative. I didn't want to
assume I knew which item to swap out, as invariably it would be the wrong
one. :)
> The keyboard input code seems to sometimes lose
> a key when typing very quickly, e.g. when hitting F1
> to heal up without actually stopping hitting the
> numpad keys to run.
I'll look at this. Thanks.
> The 'c' representing the keycode is so important
> that the character should not be shared; several
> times I was confused by the other 'c' items,
> especially 45-caliber ammunition.
I think making it a capital C rather than lowercase c, may solve that.
> Hitting Esc should not quit the game without saving
> and without prompting for confirmation.
That can be added. I figured with only 30 min, you probably wouldn't be
saving the game much.
> The game should do the countdown at second
> resolution; if this makes the display too noisy, it
> should at least be displayed in the endgame
> summary for bragging rights.
That would be a nice touch. Easy to implement.
> I'm not sure what "guards" and "civis" refers to in
> the endgame summary; are those "Z"s and "z"s?
Guards are Z, a little tougher than Civilians (Civis) z.
> I was unable to compile the game on Debian, or
> rather I was able to do so, but the game segfaulted
> when I tried to run it (as did the precompiled
> version provided). Luckily, I got the Windows binary
> to run under wine.
I am not sure what the deal is on that. I don't have Linux so I asked a
friend of mine to build it for me. I'll see if I can get someone on the
FreeBasic forums using Debian to compile for me and see what they get.
> Lastly, and most radically, I'm not quite convinced
> that this game actually needs to be real-time.
The first iteration of this was a classic turn-based game with a real-time
timer. It just didn't have the same feel to it for me though, so I went with
real-time.
>
> All that said, though, thanks for a well-made game. In
> terms of fun, which is really all that matters, this was
> the best game of this year's competition for me out
> of all the ones I've tried.
> -kaw
Thank you so much!
> PS: I could hardly disagree more with the fellow who
> feels you should rewrite this to be a non-roguelike
> top-down mouse-based zombie shooter. I'm not impressed
> by this game because I've never seen a top-down zombie
> shooter before, but because it's a good game in its
> own right. I feel it embodies much of what I like about
> roguelikes, e.g. tactical "dances" with dangerous
> monsters, constant fight-or-flight decisions, and so on.
> Even the abstract "graphics" work very well; a faceless
> zombie horde does not suffer much at at all from being
> represented by ASCII characters. (If you had a
> commercial-grade stable of artists I'm sure you could
> do "better", but amateurish tiles would be a great leap
> in the wrong direction.)
I could rewrite this game as a top down shooter, it wouldn't be that hard at
all, but as you say, unless I could find someone to do quality graphics and
sound effects, it would ruin the whole game experience. The whole point of
this game was to make a fairly standard coffeebreak RL with a real-time
element. When I play the game, I see shuffling zombies with vacant eyes
coming after me, not Zs and zs. :)
This game was quite fun to make and I like the theme, being a zombie movie
fan, so I may use the same premise and setting and create a larger sequel to
it, after I finish the other two projects I am working on;
that is, get to a release. These are never finished.
---
Michael Dürwald
Hi,
i'm a zombie-fan too (got many films, 28days/weeks, RE1/2/3,
DawnOfTheDead (old and new), Necropolis, LandOfTheDead and so on), and
that's why i gave this game a second try. But once again i think the
game could be much more fun with at least sounds and mousecontrol (since
in realtime environments i really believe its better)
i also did a zombie-themed roguelike 7DRL attempt last year
( http://retroforge.de/%7Emd/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/residentevil.png
http://retroforge.de/%
7Emd/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/screen_20080310.png )
Even worse, to (t)arget any enemy and to (g)et something i have to put
my fingers from the movement keys (numpad), and that really feels not
good. ( t and g is on the right side of my keyboard )
Greetings
Michael
rdc
> i'm a zombie-fan too (got many films, 28days/weeks, RE1/2/3,
> DawnOfTheDead (old and new), Necropolis, LandOfTheDead and so on), and
> that's why i gave this game a second try. But once again i think the
> game could be much more fun with at least sounds and mousecontrol (since
> in realtime environments i really believe its better)
I do plan on adding sounds since I think it will provide some additional
feedback for the player. I am looking around to see if there is a tile set
that would work with this. The real issue is the player and zombie graphics.
I want them to be at least decent otherwise it would just kill the whole
thing.
> i also did a zombie-themed roguelike 7DRL attempt last year
> ( http://retroforge.de/%7Emd/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/residentevil.png
> http://retroforge.de/%
> 7Emd/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/screen_20080310.png )
That looks quite good.
> Even worse, to (t)arget any enemy and to (g)et something i have to put
> my fingers from the movement keys (numpad), and that really feels not
> good. ( t and g is on the right side of my keyboard )
>
I am planning on adding mouse support since several people have asked for
it. I am also going to do a key-config that way people can create their own
key layouts. I never realized before how many different types of keyboard
layouts there are. You learn something each time you write and release a
program. :)
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