Angband Theory and Strategy (LONG)
Larry Craighead
I'd like feedback on whether people find this interesting or not. If
so, maybe I'll post more things like it. If not, oh well. Advanced
players probably already know all this, but newbies and such may find
it interesting.
Angband Theory and Strategy -- Part 1 (Hit Points)
--------------------------------------------------
I view HP as one of the most crucial portions of the game. If your HP
go below 0, you die. If you can keep your HP positive, you'll win --
eventually.
That is obvious. However, what may not be obvious is that your entire
game strategy must be based around hit points. For example, take the
wait at 2000' for poison resistance. Why do you need it? AMHDs and
Drolems, which begin showing up soon after, breathe poison to do 693
and 800 damage, respectively. Most classes, even with the maxed stats
they typically have by this point, cannot take this kind of damage;
even if they can, they risk the possibility that some other small
damage source combined with the poison breath will kill them. The
resistance reduces the damage to 231 and 267 damage. This is
withstandable by all classes, even mages, by that point.
Another example. Ringil is a wonderful weapon with its high damage and
its +10 to speed. However, it fails to do one essential thing -
improve your situation with respect to hit points! Not to bash Ringil,
but if you encounter a Dracolich and you have 500 hit points, +10 speed
really doesn't prevent the Dracolich from breathing nether on you and
causing instadeath (550 damage). On the other hand, maybe Calris, with
its +5 toCON will push your HP past that crucial mark and make the
battle perhaps livable long enough to get away.
So, with that, there are some crucial questions. Some of the answers
will be explained in greater detail later. This first part is mostly
"theoretical", and the practical stuff is all later. Thus the name,
"Angband Theory and Strategy".
1. How do I get more hitpoints?
- Gain levels.
- Increase your constitution.
- Play a race with better hitdice.
- Play a class with better hitdice.
- Get luckier on your hitdice rolls. (Not much you can do here.)
2. How do I make it so my hitpoints last longer?
- Increase your armor class.
- Gain resistances/immunities.
- Fight fewer monsters at a time.
- Cast Globe of Invulnerability.
- Disable your foes to make them less potent:
* Hurt breathing monsters, whose damage depends on their HP.
* Use things like Slow Monster and Confuse Monster, although many of
these become useless at a certain point.
- If possible, don't run around poisoned.
- Genocide the problematic creatures. (Mages only)
3. How do I regain lost hitpoints?
- Healing-type potions. Cure <type> Wounds, Healing, *Healing*, Life.
- Healing staffs/rods. (VERY useful)
- Healing spells/prayers.
- Resting. (Not useful during combat, the most crucial time.)
There are more issues here, but they go beyond the scope of this. For
example, "How do I do the most damage to the monsters in the time I
have before my hitpoints run out?" is a question that is very important
for good gameplay, but it is an entirely different topic.
Okay, now some elaboration on the earlier comments.
- Play a race with better hitdice.
Unless you're trying to challenge yourself, it's nice to pick a race
that has lots of hitdice. Unfortunately, half-trolls, the race with
the most hitdice, have many other flaws not just related to their
inability to play most classes. I usually play high-elves for
mage-likes, dunedain or dwarves for priests, dunedain for paladins, and
a number of things for warriors. I just don't get why some people like
gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to great
stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because mages
are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
- Increase your armor class.
Enchant all your armor to +9 ASAP.
- Gain resistances/immunities.
You need to get the basic four elemental resistances by 1500' or so,
and resist poison for after about 2000'. By 2500' you should like to
have resist nether, blindness, and confusion/chaos. Blindness and
confusion are conditions not reflected in your HP, but that doesn't
make them any more nasty. Note that I said "you should like", not "you
need", because it is possible to do without some of them, although it's
hard.
Immunities are luxuries in a way. You can sacrifice them to fill out
your set of resistances better. However, they don't hurt. Note that
immunities, unlike resistances, will completely protect you from
inventory damage from that particular type of elemental attack.
- Fight fewer monsters at a time.
There are basic techniques and advanced techniques here. (VERY LONG)
Basic techniques:
1. Fight in corridors if possible. You really lose HP quickly if you
get surrounded, and this is a much greater threat if you are in an open
area. Also, this allows the possibility of doing more damage with
beams such as Spear of Light.
2. If the monsters you are fighting breathe and are in groups (hounds
are probably the best example here, although several separate monsters
can make up a group at times), then you don't want to simply be in a
corridor. You need to fight around a corner.
Arrangement Desirability
########
ZZZZZ@ Very low, all can breathe.
########
#######
ZZZZZ # Better, 2 can breathe.
#####@#
# #
######
ZZZZ # Good, 1 can breathe unless you fail to kill the
####Z# hound next to you in 1 round.
#@#
There are better ways, but those fall under Advanced Techniques.
3. Teleport away some of the nasties. For example, if you have 2
dracolisks next to you, get rid of one of them or you're asking for
trouble.
4. Try to avoid situations like this:
#ooooo#
#ooooo#
## #o##
# #@#
# #
#####
The orcs may only be facing you one at a time now, but they will go
around the barrier and you will soon be getting 2 or 3.
5. The Phase Door trick
Get a good ranged attack (bow or spell). Fire it off repeatedly at the
nasty. As soon as the nasty gets next to you, phase door to avoid
melee attacks and repeat. This doesn't work well against monsters that
have a strong ranged attack most of the time. More on this in the
advanced techniques section.
Advanced Techniques:
6. Anti-Summoning Corridors
I call them this because of their special usefulness against summoners,
but they're also great in other cases such as the hound fights above.
The basic anti-summoning corridor looks like this:
#
###
#@#
## ###
###
Assuming they can't dig through walls, the monsters will only be able
to get in one at a time. Also, if the monsters can summon, there will
be no room for the summoned creatures and so the summoning will fail.
There are some real disadvantages, though. (1) Little room for
treasure drops. (2) You MUST face the monster's melee attack, unlike
in the Phase Door trick. (3) If you use a bow, you will lose a lot
more arrows/bolts than if you are in the open. (4) Monsters with
Teleport To can sometimes teleport you outside of the corridor.
(Cantoras is a good example.) (5) You don't always have time to set
one up, and if you are a priest, paladin, or warrior, you lack Stone to
Mud, which really helps.
Problems 2 and 5 are really impossible to solve with anti-summoning
corridors. However, problem 4 can be somewhat fixed with a "long"
anti-summoning corridor, at the cost of aggravating problem 5.
#
#####
#@# #
## # ####
#####
Teleport To is now much less problematic. If you are still scared, you
can make this yet longer.
Problems 1 and 3 can also be somewhat improved, but only for
non-Teleport To monsters.
#
###
#@#
## #####
# ##
###
You get one extra drop and/or saved arrow/bolt.
7. Improved Phase Door trick
The original Phase Door trick was great for monsters like the orc
uniques. However, it begins to fail miserably for monsters that can
summon or can do large amounts of damage at range. But in some special
cases, like Gabriel, the foe can only summon ONE creature per turn, and
has ranged attacks that are not too significant. In this case, you can
phase door around and fire your arrows or bolts, but when an angel is
summoned, you can just use Teleport Away. Yes, Gabriel has mana bolts,
but those are not too deadly.
Priests (and maybe paladins) can take this a step further. Start off
with the before-mentioned trick, but if an deva is summoned, perhaps
let it stay, especially an Astral Deva. Eventually the room will fill
up with summoned creatures, both the devas and any creatures that the
Astral Devas themselves summon. Now, if you didn't have OoD, you'd be
stuck here, because they block missile weapons. However, OoD can go
right over the creatures and hurt Gabriel. Furthermore, the other
creatures will block the mana bolts. This is risky in the case that a
hound group or a big breather gets brought up by the Astral Deva
summons.
Matt Craighead
Juha Kalanen
In article <<4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>>, Larry Craighead (plug...@ix.netcom.co) said...
>
>I'd like feedback on whether people find this interesting or not. If
>so, maybe I'll post more things like it. If not, oh well. Advanced
>players probably already know all this, but newbies and such may find
>it interesting.
>
>Angband Theory and Strategy -- Part 1 (Hit Points)
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>I view HP as one of the most crucial portions of the game. If your HP
>go below 0, you die. If you can keep your HP positive, you'll win --
>eventually.
>
>
>Matt Craighead
>
This is great Matt. Keep it coming.
This kind of strategy guide whould have been _very_ handy when
I started playing Moria/Angband. I think new players would appreciate
it if this kind of guides could be found in an FAQ or some such.
Also experienced players could benefit from such guide(s),
it would give them new perspectives to some points in
the gameplay.
-JuhaK
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ www
+ Email: ju...@taltta.lpr.carel.fi + You feel more alive + (o o)
+ Alias: Juha Kalanen + after a brush with death ++oOO+(_)+OOo+
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Toby Haynes
In article <4ok1d6$a...@mserv1.dl.ac.uk>, I.J. Bush <I.J....@dl.ac.uk> wrote:
>SNIP!
>
>>2. How do I make it so my hitpoints last longer?
>>
>>- Increase your armor class.
>>- Gain resistances/immunities.
>>- Fight fewer monsters at a time.
>>- Cast Globe of Invulnerability.
>>- Disable your foes to make them less potent:
>> * Hurt breathing monsters, whose damage depends on their HP.
>> * Use things like Slow Monster and Confuse Monster, although many of
>> these become useless at a certain point.
>>- If possible, don't run around poisoned.
>>- Genocide the problematic creatures. (Mages only)
>
>- Cast Protection from Evil.
and - possibly most important of all:
- have as high a speed as possible.
either: Don't carry very much
or: obtain weapons/armour/rings of speed
Cheers,
Toby
--
Toby Haynes | "I COULD MURDER A CURRY" - Death
Somewhere in Cambridge | Mort by Terry Pratchett
I.J. Bush
SNIP!
>2. How do I make it so my hitpoints last longer?
>
>- Increase your armor class.
>- Gain resistances/immunities.
>- Fight fewer monsters at a time.
>- Cast Globe of Invulnerability.
>- Disable your foes to make them less potent:
> * Hurt breathing monsters, whose damage depends on their HP.
> * Use things like Slow Monster and Confuse Monster, although many of
> these become useless at a certain point.
>- If possible, don't run around poisoned.
>- Genocide the problematic creatures. (Mages only)
Also
- Cast Protection from Evil.
Ian
Chris Sheldahl
In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
plug...@ix.netcom.com(Larry Craighead) wrote:
[snip]
>
> I just don't get why some people like
> gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to great
> stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because mages
> are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
Hmm, well Gnomes have innate free action after all, which is nice and they
have fairly good stealth (I've actually been trying *Gnome warriors*
recently.)
Ronald Neumann
Chris Sheldahl (ch...@neptune.cmc.uab.edu) wrote:
: In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
: plug...@ix.netcom.com(Larry Craighead) wrote:
: [snip]
: >
: > I just don't get why some people like
: > gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to great
: > stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because mages
: > are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
: Hmm, well Gnomes have innate free action after all, which is nice and they
: have fairly good stealth (I've actually been trying *Gnome warriors*
: recently.)
And i have played a half-elf paladin to the end (with restoring after
death,though),and this character was definitely good to play,perhaps
because Paladins are a very powerful class anyways and i got good arti-
facts.
But i think that half-elves make very good paladins (starting with in-
fravision,so there ain't the human-type bonking into Smeagol and getting
into big doo-doo with clear hounds).
Also played an elven mage and only died due to my stupidity;this guy
could have gone a long way.
And Gnome Warriors are quite fun,too.
Larry Craighead
In <chris-30059...@138.26.45.23> ch...@neptune.cmc.uab.edu
(Chris Sheldahl) writes:
>
>In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>plug...@ix.netcom.com(Larry Craighead) wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>> gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to
great
>> stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because
mages
>> are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
>
they
>have fairly good stealth (I've actually been trying *Gnome warriors*
>recently.)
High-elves have good stealth too, as well as more HP, better strength
and intelligence, and see invisible. I've never found free action
troublesome to get.
Matt Craighead
Adam Atkinson
>>> I just don't get why some people like
>>> gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to
>great
>>> stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because
>mages
>>> are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
>>
>>Hmm, well Gnomes have innate free action after all, which is nice and
>they
>>have fairly good stealth (I've actually been trying *Gnome warriors*
>>recently.)
>High-elves have good stealth too, as well as more HP, better strength
>and intelligence, and see invisible. I've never found free action
>troublesome to get.
I sometimes play half-elf paladins. They have infravision, unlike humans or
dunedain, and they go up levels quite fast by paladin standards.
I almost always play dunedain paladins or dwarf priests, though.
Adam Atkinson - gh...@mistral.co.uk / etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se
We know Jesus must have been Italian for three reasons: He lived at home
until he was 30, he thought his mother was a virgin, and she thought he was
God.
Craig Lewis
In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, plug...@ix.netcom.co says...
>
>I'd like feedback on whether people find this interesting or not. If
>so, maybe I'll post more things like it. If not, oh well. Advanced
>players probably already know all this, but newbies and such may find
>it interesting.
It makes a great point of departure for the discussion of strategic
considerations. Probably no one will agree with everything you say,
or everything that I say, but the context is excellent.
>Angband Theory and Strategy -- Part 1 (Hit Points)
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>I view HP as one of the most crucial portions of the game. If your HP
>go below 0, you die. If you can keep your HP positive, you'll win --
>eventually.
On a basic level, this is true. But it's not necessarily true on
more subtle levels. You're not comparing the strengths and weaknesses
of hit points vs. other game considerations: resistances, attack
capabilities (which may be melee or spell-based), and other special
defenses.
>That is obvious. However, what may not be obvious is that your entire
>game strategy must be based around hit points. For example, take the
>wait at 2000' for poison resistance. Why do you need it? AMHDs and
>Drolems, which begin showing up soon after, breathe poison to do 693
>and 800 damage, respectively. Most classes, even with the maxed stats
>they typically have by this point, cannot take this kind of damage;
>even if they can, they risk the possibility that some other small
>damage source combined with the poison breath will kill them. The
>resistance reduces the damage to 231 and 267 damage. This is
>withstandable by all classes, even mages, by that point.
By your own argument, the hit points are not relevant; it is the
presence or absence of a particular resistance. Poison resistance
is, IMO, a very special case: a very difficult resistance to obtain,
and *potentially* as important as the 4 basic resistances.
>Another example. Ringil is a wonderful weapon with its high damage and
>its +10 to speed. However, it fails to do one essential thing -
>improve your situation with respect to hit points! Not to bash Ringil,
>but if you encounter a Dracolich and you have 500 hit points, +10 speed
>really doesn't prevent the Dracolich from breathing nether on you and
>causing instadeath (550 damage). On the other hand, maybe Calris, with
>its +5 toCON will push your HP past that crucial mark and make the
>battle perhaps livable long enough to get away.
What you point out is the intimate interrelationship between hit points
and resistances. When you are strong on one, you can afford to be
weak on the other, *somewhat*.
>So, with that, there are some crucial questions. Some of the answers
>will be explained in greater detail later. This first part is mostly
>"theoretical", and the practical stuff is all later. Thus the name,
>"Angband Theory and Strategy".
>
>1. How do I get more hitpoints?
>
>- Gain levels.
>- Increase your constitution.
>- Play a race with better hitdice.
>- Play a class with better hitdice.
>- Get luckier on your hitdice rolls. (Not much you can do here.)
Racial hit dice is, IMO, only really significant for mages. 2 very nice
races for mage, gnome and halfling, have *horribly* low hit dice.
For the other classes, where it's available, a pure hit point consideration
says dwarf or half-troll...but that ignores the *serious* negative
factors these races have, especially the half-troll. And the difference
between, say, a half-troll and a human is only 1 hp per level.
>2. How do I make it so my hitpoints last longer?
>
>- Increase your armor class.
>- Gain resistances/immunities.
>- Fight fewer monsters at a time.
>- Cast Globe of Invulnerability.
>- Disable your foes to make them less potent:
> * Hurt breathing monsters, whose damage depends on their HP.
> * Use things like Slow Monster and Confuse Monster, although many of
> these become useless at a certain point.
>- If possible, don't run around poisoned.
>- Genocide the problematic creatures. (Mages only)
SPEED. Protection from Evil for priests and paladins. Know your
attack capabilities: if you have to face a dracolich, is it better
to sit at range and cast Fireballs/OoDs, fire off your heavy xbow,
or close and melee? Know the attack strengths and weaknesses of
the monsters. If you can't resist that nether breath, you'd better
try *damned* hard to get the damage from it down ASAP. More generally:
If a monster has *more lethal* attacks at range, CLOSE, or establish
a good defensive position. If it has weak or no ranged attacks,
but good melee attacks, keep your distance.
Also: a monster that is dead doesn't do any damage to you.
This is the fundamental reason why I emphasize *offense* in the
early stages of the game. I *like* having 2 or 3 melee attacks
at 1st level, whenever possible, or as soon as I can get a bit of
luck (and cash). I emphasize *DEX*, not Con, with most starting
characters...the 18/01 Dex means I can get that 3rd attack in
much more easily. If I have 3 attacks, the monster(s) I'm
combatting are falling often in 1-2 rounds...getting in one
or NO attack sequences themselves. That's hit point conservation!
This is *less* true with priests and mages, but is still important;
it allows some mana conservation. You can afford to go a few rounds
of melee in between spells.
>3. How do I regain lost hitpoints?
>
>- Healing-type potions. Cure <type> Wounds, Healing, *Healing*, Life.
>- Healing staffs/rods. (VERY useful)
>- Healing spells/prayers.
>- Resting. (Not useful during combat, the most crucial time.)
>
>There are more issues here, but they go beyond the scope of this. For
>example, "How do I do the most damage to the monsters in the time I
>have before my hitpoints run out?" is a question that is very important
>for good gameplay, but it is an entirely different topic.
I disagree. It is central to the topic...in fact, it IS the topic.
Everything you are discussing here revolves around this fundamental
issue.
>Okay, now some elaboration on the earlier comments.
>
>- Play a race with better hitdice.
>
>Unless you're trying to challenge yourself, it's nice to pick a race
>that has lots of hitdice. Unfortunately, half-trolls, the race with
>the most hitdice, have many other flaws not just related to their
>inability to play most classes. I usually play high-elves for
>mage-likes, dunedain or dwarves for priests, dunedain for paladins, and
>a number of things for warriors. I just don't get why some people like
>gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to great
>stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because mages
>are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
You have to consider the various tradeoffs. Do you want the LONG extra
time that high elves and dunedain require, with their 80% xp penalty?
This is counter to one of your other points, that of gaining levels.
And if hobbits are understandable for their stealth: gnomes are trading
1 point of stealth for 1 point on the hit die.
>- Increase your armor class.
>
>Enchant all your armor to +9 ASAP.
But what is better: a ring of damage or a ring of protection?
>- Gain resistances/immunities.
>
>You need to get the basic four elemental resistances by 1500' or so,
>and resist poison for after about 2000'. By 2500' you should like to
>have resist nether, blindness, and confusion/chaos. Blindness and
>confusion are conditions not reflected in your HP, but that doesn't
>make them any more nasty. Note that I said "you should like", not "you
>need", because it is possible to do without some of them, although it's
>hard.
Right...these conditions all seriously compromise your offensive and
defensive capabilities, to a degree where you often MUST deal with
them immediately (or teleport out, if you can).
But again, if your main thrust is that hit points are important,
you're countering your own argument.
>Immunities are luxuries in a way. You can sacrifice them to fill out
>your set of resistances better. However, they don't hurt. Note that
>immunities, unlike resistances, will completely protect you from
>inventory damage from that particular type of elemental attack.
As well as ALL damage from that attack type. Immunity to fire is
*extremely* nice when facing a great hell wyrm...it's doing FAR too
much damage, even thru single resistance. I don't consider acid,
cold, or fire immunity to be 'luxuries', and I may well drop a
secondary resistance (shards, sound, disenchant) for one of these
3.
>- Fight fewer monsters at a time.
>
>There are basic techniques and advanced techniques here. (VERY LONG)
>
>Basic techniques:
All the advice here is quite good, but: Don't ignore stealth.
>Matt Craighead
>
--
[This sig intentionally left blank.]
Larry Craighead
In <4ossgk$8...@bubba.NMSU.Edu> cle...@psl.nmsu.edu (Craig Lewis)
writes:
[snip]
>>Immunities are luxuries in a way. You can sacrifice them to fill out
>>your set of resistances better. However, they don't hurt. Note that
>>immunities, unlike resistances, will completely protect you from
>>inventory damage from that particular type of elemental attack.
>
>As well as ALL damage from that attack type. Immunity to fire is
>*extremely* nice when facing a great hell wyrm...it's doing FAR too
>much damage, even thru single resistance. I don't consider acid,
>cold, or fire immunity to be 'luxuries', and I may well drop a
>secondary resistance (shards, sound, disenchant) for one of these
>3.
Shards resistance is rather useless in my experience. Sound was
important until it was eliminated as a way to prevent ALL stunning,
including from monster crits, but now it can also be given up easily.
Disenchantment is more questionable, I think it to be very important
(but perhaps only because I play slowly and cautiously and thus will
get disenchanted more than if I played rapidly). Great hell wyrms are
not difficult unless you have a warrior, in which case you can't cast
resist heat in any way. Other classes will not have any difficulty
with the breath, especially if they are telepathic and can see it
coming up.
As for all your comments about offense being important, just as defense
is, this was only one section of my game strategy. I wanted some
feedback on my defensive sections (whether people wanted more) before I
put out a part about offense.
As for speed helping preserve hitpoints -- true, but only partially.
As I said before, Ringil may give +10 to speed, making you take only
about half the amount of damage you would otherwise, but it certainly
doesn't make you much more safe from an single huge-damage attack, like
many breaths. A full set of resistances is better than +10 speed and a
skimpy set of resistances. A mage of mine long ago had no speed items
by 4000', living mostly due to his having Power DSM and thus lots of
resists. (The mage died when level 44, so GoI wasn't an issue here.)
Matt Craighead
RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu
>
>: Hmm, well Gnomes have innate free action after all, which is nice and they
>: have fairly good stealth (I've actually been trying *Gnome warriors*
about a year and a half or so ago. In all this time, there are still a few
questions that I've got...
1. What IS free action?
2. What is Chaos? (I discovered this phrase when playing abround w/ the
wizard mode).
3. Why did my half-Orc Rogue get a -100 penalty to hit when wielding an
executioner's sword +0, +3? The program warned me that I was having
difficulty wielding such a heavy weapon, but is THAT the only reason
for the negative? also, the sword wasn't aparently cursed, I could
take it off when I discovered the problem.....
4. Why do some characters get 'feelings' while others don't? What's the
deciding attribute?
5. I don't suppose it's possible to appease Farmer Maggot's dogs by
throwing them a bone or playing fetch w/ a broken stick, eh? Then
maybe pacifying Farmer Maggot by bringing his dogs back to him?
6. Hey, why not add a Taming feature to the game which allows the Player
to have some pets that follow her/him around? Maybe they could be
territorial and wait for you on their levels. or maybe they're
overcome w/ such loyalty for the owner that they'll attack your enemies
with you... How about a pet dog that barks whenever a ghost is nearby?
-Bob
Craig Lewis
In article <4ovfhj$9...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, plug...@ix.netcom.co says...
>>>your set of resistances better. However, they don't hurt. Note that
>>>immunities, unlike resistances, will completely protect you from
>>>inventory damage from that particular type of elemental attack.
>>
>>As well as ALL damage from that attack type. Immunity to fire is
>>*extremely* nice when facing a great hell wyrm...it's doing FAR too
>>much damage, even thru single resistance. I don't consider acid,
>>cold, or fire immunity to be 'luxuries', and I may well drop a
>>secondary resistance (shards, sound, disenchant) for one of these
>>3.
>
>important until it was eliminated as a way to prevent ALL stunning,
>including from monster crits, but now it can also be given up easily.
>Disenchantment is more questionable, I think it to be very important
>(but perhaps only because I play slowly and cautiously and thus will
>get disenchanted more than if I played rapidly). Great hell wyrms are
>not difficult unless you have a warrior, in which case you can't cast
>resist heat in any way. Other classes will not have any difficulty
>with the breath, especially if they are telepathic and can see it
>coming up.
Agreed. That's why I said I'll prefer an immunity, *especially* fire
or acid, to filling out certain resistances that are not as important.
I like protecting my inventory. :-)
>As for all your comments about offense being important, just as defense
>is, this was only one section of my game strategy. I wanted some
>feedback on my defensive sections (whether people wanted more) before I
>put out a part about offense.
True enough. One thing to consider in your later posts, tho, is
the effect depth has on strategy. Very good offense *is* a defense,
for the first 1500-2000', because there are few if any creatures in
this range that can do THAT much damage in a turn.
>As for speed helping preserve hitpoints -- true, but only partially.
>As I said before, Ringil may give +10 to speed, making you take only
>about half the amount of damage you would otherwise, but it certainly
>doesn't make you much more safe from an single huge-damage attack, like
>many breaths. A full set of resistances is better than +10 speed and a
>skimpy set of resistances. A mage of mine long ago had no speed items
>by 4000', living mostly due to his having Power DSM and thus lots of
>resists. (The mage died when level 44, so GoI wasn't an issue here.)
It helps somewhat even there, but not *as* much with a mage, and
definitely not as you go deeper. Speed lets you take whatever
tack you want...more damage from range, or close to melee before
the critter wakes up. Or it lets you get out of there if the first
big attack hurt more than you want to deal with, but didn't kill
you.
Judy Sargent
RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu wrote:
>
> >
> >: Hmm, well Gnomes have innate free action after all, which is nice and they
> >: have fairly good stealth (I've actually been trying *Gnome warriors*
>
> I played various characters on Moria for about 5 years, and I got FAngband
> about a year and a half or so ago. In all this time, there are still a few
> questions that I've got...
>
> 1. What IS free action?
Free action is an ability which makes you immune to paralysis
> 2. What is Chaos? (I discovered this phrase when playing abround w/ the
> wizard mode).
> Chaos is an attack mode used by certain creatures (chaos vortex,
Chaos hounds, chaos drakes, etc.) It drains your life without
resistance, and I'm told it also confuses you, as well as dealing a
respectable amount of damage
3. Why did my half-Orc Rogue get a -100 penalty to hit when
wielding an
> executioner's sword +0, +3? The program warned me that I was having
> difficulty wielding such a heavy weapon, but is THAT the only reason
> for the negative? also, the sword wasn't aparently cursed, I could
> take it off when I discovered the problem.....
> I don't know.
4. Why do some characters get 'feelings' while others don't? What's
the
> deciding attribute?
> I'm assuming you're talking about the item feelings. This "Pseudo-ID"
allows some classes to make upo for their lack of Identify spells.
Warriors (or Fighters, but I prefer calling them Warriors) get a quick ID
that is a good deal faster than Paladins and Rogues which are better than
Priests and Rangers. Mage Pseudo-ID Blows, but who cares?
5. I don't suppose it's possible to appease Farmer Maggot's dogs by
> throwing them a bone or playing fetch w/ a broken stick, eh? Then
> maybe pacifying Farmer Maggot by bringing his dogs back to him?
> Nope, but I think you already figured it out
6. Hey, why not add a Taming feature to the game which allows the
Player
> to have some pets that follow her/him around? Maybe they could be
> territorial and wait for you on their levels. or maybe they're
> overcome w/ such loyalty for the owner that they'll attack your enemies
> with you... How about a pet dog that barks whenever a ghost is nearby?
> Sounds a bit like a MUD to me
-Bob
-Abe
RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu
Is it possible to program in a Theft command so Player Rogues can act
more like Nonplayer Rogues - stealing money, items... maybe snatch money back
that was stolen from you?
-Bob
Chris Kousky
Larry Craighead wrote:
>
> In <chris-30059...@138.26.45.23> ch...@neptune.cmc.uab.edu
> (Chris Sheldahl) writes:
> >
> >In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
> >plug...@ix.netcom.com(Larry Craighead) wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>
> >> gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to
> great
> >> stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because
> mages
> >> are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
> >
> they
> >have fairly good stealth (I've actually been trying *Gnome warriors*
>
> High-elves have good stealth too, as well as more HP, better strength
> and intelligence, and see invisible. I've never found free action
> troublesome to get.
>
rid of all the other races? BTW, my last completion was a gnome mage.
Being scarce of hitpoints forces a much more conservative style of play,
although it requires a great deal of patience ...
Chris
Kent Perrier
In article <1779C1129BS...@uriacc.uri.edu>
RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu writes:
<SNIP>
6. Hey, why not add a Taming feature to the game which allows the Player
to have some pets that follow her/him around? Maybe they could be
territorial and wait for you on their levels. or maybe they're
overcome w/ such loyalty for the owner that they'll attack your enemies
with you... How about a pet dog that barks whenever a ghost is nearby?
Argh! No! Pets is one the things that I HATED about nethack! If you want
pest, um I mean pets, then play nethack.
Kent
--
Kent Perrier
kper...@neosoft.com
Corporations don't have opinions, people do. These are mine.
PGP 2.6 Public Key available by request and on key servers
PGP encrypted mail preferred!
Justin Rogers
RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu wrote:
:
: Is it possible to program in a Theft command so Player Rogues can act
: more like Nonplayer Rogues - stealing money, items... maybe snatch money back
: that was stolen from you?
That would be nice if you could do that.
--
"Humans and flowers are having sex." "Poo-tee-wheet?" "Everything is true."
Wolves Glen Pub page: www: http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~jcr1/wolves.html
Meaningless junk brought to you by: J.C.R...@bton.ac.uk
Joseph W. DeVincentis
In article <1779C1129BS...@uriacc.uri.edu>,
Free Action keeps you from being Paralyzed.
> 2. What is Chaos? (I discovered this phrase when playing abround w/ the
> wizard mode).
Chaos is an attack type that some monsters have; it causes you to hallucinate
(as with a mushroom of hallucination) for a short period of time, and I think
drains experience, in addition to whatever damage it does. Chaos resistance
will prevent the hallucination effect, and some of the damage, and maybe the
life drain too, but don't trust me on this one; RChaos is one of the few
resistances my mage doesn't have yet (that and RShards, plus RDisenchant when
I am wielding Taratol or RDark when I wield Calris).
> 3. Why did my half-Orc Rogue get a -100 penalty to hit when wielding an
> executioner's sword +0, +3?
At any given strength, you can only wield a weapon up to a certain weight.
When you exceed that limit, you get -20 to-hit for each (?? what unit goes
here? 1 lb? 2 lbs? 5 lbs? ??) over the limit that your weapon is. An
executioner's sword is very heavy. Work on increasing your strength.
> 4. Why do some characters get 'feelings' while others don't? What's
> the deciding attribute?
If you mean the item feelings (you feel the longsword in your pack is good)
then it is class-based. Warriors get this the fastest; mages get it the
slowest, but everybody *eventually* gets it (although some mages may never
see it, because they get the Identify spell at level 11 and don't carry
unidentified stuff long enough). Some classes like Mages and Rangers only
get a weak version of this ability, which marks items as good or cursed;
others get the full ability, which indicates normal items {average}, cursed
items {cursed}, cursed ego-items and artifacts {terrible}, enchanted items
{good}, ego items {excellent}, and artifacts {special}.
> 5. I don't suppose it's possible to appease Farmer Maggot's dogs by
> throwing them a bone or playing fetch w/ a broken stick, eh? Then
> maybe pacifying Farmer Maggot by bringing his dogs back to him?
No.
> 6. Hey, why not add a Taming feature to the game
Try playing Nethack. It has this.
ler...@classic26.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
Saluton!
: >In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
: >plug...@ix.netcom.com(Larry Craighead) wrote:
: >> I just don't get why some people like
: >> gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to
: great
: >> stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because
: mages
: >> are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
Well, I like gnomes because ... I like gnomes.
Ad Astra!
JuL
ler...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de / Never disturb a dragon, for you will
J"urgen ''JuL'' Lerch / be crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
Michael Barnes
In a moment's sanity, cle...@psl.nmsu.edu (Craig Lewis) wrote:
>In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, plug...@ix.netcom.co says...
>You have to consider the various tradeoffs. Do you want the LONG extra
>time that high elves and dunedain require, with their 80% xp penalty?
>This is counter to one of your other points, that of gaining levels.
>And if hobbits are understandable for their stealth: gnomes are trading
>1 point of stealth for 1 point on the hit die.
Don't forget the extra 1 point of starting STR.
That's what does the Hobbit/Gnome choice for me. Hobbit Mage STR can begin
at 10, Gnome Mage at 11. But 9 and 10 are more likely.
I won't consider a STR below 10 and it takes too long to roll up a Hobbit
Mage with decent stats including STR 10.
Gnomes are also better at melee, which a Mage is drastically in need of
boosting.
Of course, an extra 75% to the Exp to advance could give you even better
STR, Hit dice and Melee ability, but that's a pretty even trade-off in my
book.
--
http://www.tcp.co.uk/~litening - Save money today.
"I am the voice of the thunder and pouring rain. I
am the voice of your hunger and pain."
We learn, we adjust and we move on. It's what humans do.
Venkatesh Natarajan
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 8-Jun-96 Re: Angband
Theory and Stra.. by Michael Bar...@tcp.co.uk
> ...
> >You have to consider the various tradeoffs. Do you want the LONG extra
> >time that high elves and dunedain require, with their 80% xp penalty?
> >This is counter to one of your other points, that of gaining levels.
> >And if hobbits are understandable for their stealth: gnomes are trading
> >1 point of stealth for 1 point on the hit die.
>
> That's what does the Hobbit/Gnome choice for me. Hobbit Mage STR can begin
> at 10, Gnome Mage at 11. But 9 and 10 are more likely.
>
Also, that XP difference isn't as big a difference as one might
think. 3 or 4 levels, I'd gather, at most (probably, it's closer to
just 2 or 3), in light of the fact that Hobbits have 10% (?) and Gnomes
20% (?) extra XP required to level as well. For warriors, it means
about 30 HP or so,assuming a very high CON on both sides. If the CON is
lower, then the difference is even less (because the bonus HP that
remains constant for all races becomes less relevant), and at a point
where CON is, say, 18 or less, probably the HP becomes even. For mages,
it's not that big a deal either: with lower CONs and hit dice, the HP
difference is less, but then there are levels for spells.
Venk
Craig Lewis
In article <DsMKF...@bton.ac.uk>, jc...@bton.ac.uk says...
>
>RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu wrote:
>:
>: Is it possible to program in a Theft command so Player Rogues can act
>: more like Nonplayer Rogues - stealing money, items... maybe snatch money back
>: that was stolen from you?
>
>That would be nice if you could do that.
Discussed and generally rejected.
The problem is that, now, the monster drop is only determined when the
monster is killed, NOT when it's created. Maintaining a monster inventory
is a pain. But the bigger pain is with monsters that have very good
items. You'd keep Farmer Maggot alive for quite a while...STEAL the
magical items he has, then leave him alone. When you leave the level,
then return, and he shows up again...he's been re-generated, *with
more items*. Maggot and Wormtongue are the 2 most easily abused
by this (*especially* Wormy), and in order to prevent this, you'd
have to got thru considerable contortions.
>--
>"Humans and flowers are having sex." "Poo-tee-wheet?" "Everything is true."
>Wolves Glen Pub page: www: http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~jcr1/wolves.html
>Meaningless junk brought to you by: J.C.R...@bton.ac.uk
--
Craig Lewis
In article <4liPDkW00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, v...@andrew.cmu.edu says...
>
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 8-Jun-96 Re: Angband
>Theory and Stra.. by Michael Bar...@tcp.co.uk
>> ...
>> >time that high elves and dunedain require, with their 80% xp penalty?
>> >This is counter to one of your other points, that of gaining levels.
>> >And if hobbits are understandable for their stealth: gnomes are trading
>> >1 point of stealth for 1 point on the hit die.
>>
>> That's what does the Hobbit/Gnome choice for me. Hobbit Mage STR can begin
>> at 10, Gnome Mage at 11. But 9 and 10 are more likely.
>>
> Also, that XP difference isn't as big a difference as one might
>think. 3 or 4 levels, I'd gather, at most (probably, it's closer to
>just 2 or 3), in light of the fact that Hobbits have 10% (?) and Gnomes
>20% (?) extra XP required to level as well. For warriors, it means
>about 30 HP or so,assuming a very high CON on both sides. If the CON is
>lower, then the difference is even less (because the bonus HP that
>remains constant for all races becomes less relevant), and at a point
>where CON is, say, 18 or less, probably the HP becomes even. For mages,
>it's not that big a deal either: with lower CONs and hit dice, the HP
>difference is less, but then there are levels for spells.
But the hit dice difference is crucial for a mage, because he has so
few before stat gain levels.
XP chart:
lvl hum war hlfl war HE war hlfl mage gn mage HE mage
11 500 550 900 700 775 1050
12 650 715 1170 910 1008 1365
13 850 935 1530 1190 1318 1785
14 1100 1210 1980 1540 1705 2310
15 1400 1540 2520 1960 2170 2940
20 4400 4840 7920 6160 6820 9240
21 5400 5940 9720 7560 8370 11340
25 12500 13750 22500 17500 19375 26250
26 17500 19250 31500 24500 27125 36750
So, generally the gnome mage is about 1 level higher, and the halfling
about 1 1/2 (sometimes 1, sometimes 2).
Still: the mage (and priest) gain more that they *need* from a level
than do the other classes. Hit points, of course, but also mana,
spells, and a lower spell failure rate.
>Venk
Venkatesh Natarajan
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 10-Jun-96 Re: Angband
Theory and Stra.. by Craig Le...@psl.nmsu.edu
> But the hit dice difference is crucial for a mage, because he has so
> few before stat gain levels.
>
Between the classes? I was arguing that I would bet the hit-dice
difference before stat-gain between a High-Elf, and a hobbit or Gnome,
would come close to compensating for the lost HP for each level.
(If you agreed with me on this particular point: I'm not sure what
you were arguing, so if you agree, never mind)
A high-elf will gain, on the average 1.5 hitpoints more/level than a
hobbit, or 1 hp more for a gnome.
Say that a high-elf is 2-levels behind. That means the Hobbit or
gnome gets, on the average, 8-9 HP extra from those two levels. By the
time the High-Elf reaches level 6 or 7, the improved Hit-Dice roll for
High-Elves over Gnomes or Hobbits will fully compensate, and beyond
that, will more than compensate.
> XP chart:
>
> lvl hum war hlfl war HE war hlfl mage gn mage HE mage
> 11 500 550 900 700 775 1050
> 12 650 715 1170 910 1008 1365
> 13 850 935 1530 1190 1318 1785
> 14 1100 1210 1980 1540 1705 2310
> 15 1400 1540 2520 1960 2170 2940
> 20 4400 4840 7920 6160 6820 9240
> 21 5400 5940 9720 7560 8370 11340
> 25 12500 13750 22500 17500 19375 26250
> 26 17500 19250 31500 24500 27125 36750
>
> So, generally the gnome mage is about 1 level higher, and the halfling
> about 1 1/2 (sometimes 1, sometimes 2).
>
Another slight consideration: Since the high-elf is lower level, he
will gain somewhat more XP on each kill. But that means next to nothing
at the levels you posted above.
> Still: the mage (and priest) gain more that they *need* from a level
> than do the other classes. Hit points, of course, but also mana,
> spells, and a lower spell failure rate.
>
Again, this is 3%-6% lower (and the spells that characters should be
relying upon, except identify, whose fail rate is not critical, should
be minned out anyway)
Mana: depends on int, but the High-Elf's is higher (18/50 is a jump
point right?), I think: in maximize mode, I think this is another thing
where the extra Mana/level outdoes the extra mana from 2 levels from the
Hobbit-Gnome, once both races have gotten a few levels under their
belts.
In non-maximize, however, this compensation does not occur.
> >Venk
Justin Rogers
Craig Lewis (cle...@psl.nmsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <DsMKF...@bton.ac.uk>, jc...@bton.ac.uk says...
: >RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu wrote:
: >:
: >: Is it possible to program in a Theft command so Player Rogues can act
: >: more like Nonplayer Rogues - stealing money, items... maybe snatch money back
: >: that was stolen from you?
: >
: >That would be nice if you could do that.
: Discussed and generally rejected.
: The problem is that, now, the monster drop is only determined when the
: monster is killed, NOT when it's created. Maintaining a monster inventory
: is a pain. But the bigger pain is with monsters that have very good
: items. You'd keep Farmer Maggot alive for quite a while...STEAL the
: magical items he has, then leave him alone. When you leave the level,
: then return, and he shows up again...he's been re-generated, *with
: more items*. Maggot and Wormtongue are the 2 most easily abused
: by this (*especially* Wormy), and in order to prevent this, you'd
: have to got thru considerable contortions.
I see what you mean, but that could be gotten around by adding a Dropped flag
to the monsters which is set when the creature is succesfully stolen from. If
the creature was killed and the dropped flag was on it wouldn't drop anything.
You still wouldn't be able to steal back things taken from you, but a new flag
doesn't sound that hard to implement.
If you successfully stole from the monster it's normal item drop would be
generated and the dropped flag set.
I don't know what you'd do about uniques being recreated with their full item
allowance intact except disallow the theiving option if preserve was on.
(I don't program C so I couldn't implement it myself)
--
Justine-W, killed by a kitten. Justine-A, killed by bumping into a wall
Craig Lewis
In article <klj2Jmy00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, v...@andrew.cmu.edu says...
>
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 10-Jun-96 Re: Angband
>Theory and Stra.. by Craig Le...@psl.nmsu.edu
>>
>> But the hit dice difference is crucial for a mage, because he has so
>> few before stat gain levels.
>>
> Between the classes? I was arguing that I would bet the hit-dice
>difference before stat-gain between a High-Elf, and a hobbit or Gnome,
>would come close to compensating for the lost HP for each level.
Mmm...true. I didn't think that through. Probably MORE than
make up for the difference.
>> Still: the mage (and priest) gain more that they *need* from a level
>> than do the other classes. Hit points, of course, but also mana,
>> spells, and a lower spell failure rate.
>>
> Again, this is 3%-6% lower (and the spells that characters should be
>relying upon, except identify, whose fail rate is not critical, should
>be minned out anyway)
Not true, I don't believe. The mage wants to be using fire bolts
and frost bolts, which aren't maxed out. Lightning bolt is too
slow, and costs too much mana for the damage; magic missile
is just *slow*. And the 6% difference doesn't sound like much,
but it's a big difference in comfort factors :-).
> Mana: depends on int, but the High-Elf's is higher (18/50 is a jump
>point right?), I think: in maximize mode, I think this is another thing
>where the extra Mana/level outdoes the extra mana from 2 levels from the
>Hobbit-Gnome, once both races have gotten a few levels under their
>belts.
If you push the mage, yes, you can get the 18/50 Int with the HE.
That's a matter of personal preference, tho...some people consider
that munchkinesque. I'm not saying *I* do.
>In non-maximize, however, this compensation does not occur.
And with mages, I often do think about going non-max mode, so I
can get a decent end-game Str. Helps a lot until you get Genocide
and GoI, and I really dislike abusing these spells anyway.
That's the other big factor: mages, perhaps more than any
other class, gain power at *specific* levels. The only
comparable cases are rangers at 20th/40th (extra shots),
and priests at 9th (OoD). For a mage, the big ones
are 37th and 45nd (?) for Genocide (assuming no Kelek's)
and GoI. Another big one is 25th, for Haste Self, because
you probably *won't* have Tenser's by that point.
>> >Venk
Venkatesh Natarajan
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 11-Jun-96 Re: Angband
> >> than do the other classes. Hit points, of course, but also mana,
> >> spells, and a lower spell failure rate.
> >>
> > Again, this is 3%-6% lower (and the spells that characters should be
> >relying upon, except identify, whose fail rate is not critical, should
> >be minned out anyway)
>
> Not true, I don't believe. The mage wants to be using fire bolts
> and frost bolts, which aren't maxed out. Lightning bolt is too
> slow, and costs too much mana for the damage; magic missile
> is just *slow*. And the 6% difference doesn't sound like much,
> but it's a big difference in comfort factors :-).
>
Fire-bolt isn't much of a spell until a few levels after you have
learned it, because I find it just fails too much for it to be
acceptable. And lightning bolt does only slightly less than frost-bolt,
and at 33% less mana, so, when creatures do not resist lightning, this
is my bolt spell of choice (actually, for a *long* time in the game, I
go ahead and use magic missile, until I gain enough INT to have *so*
much mana and low fail-rate that I just use the heaviest effective one
I've got).
And this is where the higher int for a mage comes in: it will be
higher, on average, whether you push it or not, and it's quite possible
that it could push you over a "jump" point, which would result in
suffiicent compensation. If you *do* decide to push it, then it
definitely will.
> > Mana: depends on int, but the High-Elf's is higher (18/50 is a jump
> >point right?), I think: in maximize mode, I think this is another thing
> >where the extra Mana/level outdoes the extra mana from 2 levels from the
> >Hobbit-Gnome, once both races have gotten a few levels under their
> >belts.
>
> If you push the mage, yes, you can get the 18/50 Int with the HE.
> That's a matter of personal preference, tho...some people consider
> that munchkinesque. I'm not saying *I* do.
>
> >In non-maximize, however, this compensation does not occur.
>
> And with mages, I often do think about going non-max mode, so I
> can get a decent end-game Str. Helps a lot until you get Genocide
> and GoI, and I really dislike abusing these spells anyway.
>
Yeah, with a High-Elf in maximize mode, I've had INT go to 18/250
(well, you know what I mean, 18/*** with 30 to spare!!!) just out of
having no better equipment. And I owned, but was not wielding,
Til-i-arc, so I REALLY was going to overkill on INT.
> That's the other big factor: mages, perhaps more than any
> other class, gain power at *specific* levels. The only
> comparable cases are rangers at 20th/40th (extra shots),
> and priests at 9th (OoD). For a mage, the big ones
> are 37th and 45nd (?) for Genocide (assuming no Kelek's)
> and GoI. Another big one is 25th, for Haste Self, because
> you probably *won't* have Tenser's by that point.
>
Haste Self is feh for much longer than 25th, and I really don't have
much use for it anyway until I'm well into 30th or so level (assume I'm
a high-elf), when the monsters can actually do heavy damage at range.
Now, if it still had a high-fail rate at this point, then the extra 6%
would mean a good bit... Until then, I phase-door and stuff. If you
don't have the jump, this power will be very very unreliable (well, at
the higher-level spells anyway) and not worth casting, until the
High-Elf catches up on it due to probably superior INT.
I could always use genocide though. Genocide on "Z" and "e" are
very very handy....
> >> >Venk
> >>
> >> --
Venk
Justin Rogers
Sorry if this is a repeat, but our newsserver went down and I only noticed
after I posted this the first time around.
The Dark Avenger
Maggot and Wormtongue are the 2 most easily abused
> by this (*especially* Wormy), and in order to prevent this, you'd
> have to got thru considerable contortions.
How about an "IMMUNE_THEFT" Flag?
^^^
@ @
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Craig Lewis
In article <gljKtgS00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, v...@andrew.cmu.edu says...
>
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 11-Jun-96 Re: Angband
>Theory and Stra.. by Craig Le...@psl.nmsu.edu
>>
>> >> Still: the mage (and priest) gain more that they *need* from a level
>> >> than do the other classes. Hit points, of course, but also mana,
>> >> spells, and a lower spell failure rate.
>> >>
>> > Again, this is 3%-6% lower (and the spells that characters should be
>> >relying upon, except identify, whose fail rate is not critical, should
>> >be minned out anyway)
>>
>> Not true, I don't believe. The mage wants to be using fire bolts
>> and frost bolts, which aren't maxed out. Lightning bolt is too
>> slow, and costs too much mana for the damage; magic missile
>> is just *slow*. And the 6% difference doesn't sound like much,
>> but it's a big difference in comfort factors :-).
>>
>
> Fire-bolt isn't much of a spell until a few levels after you have
>learned it, because I find it just fails too much for it to be
>acceptable. And lightning bolt does only slightly less than frost-bolt,
>and at 33% less mana, so, when creatures do not resist lightning, this
>is my bolt spell of choice (actually, for a *long* time in the game, I
>go ahead and use magic missile, until I gain enough INT to have *so*
>much mana and low fail-rate that I just use the heaviest effective one
>I've got).
Frost bolt does 2d8 more, which, percentage-wise, is still fairly significant
until you don't care any more. Also, don't forget frost *ball*.
But that's my point: you're getting to the point where, often, you just
can't sit there and whittle away with Mag Miss and Lightning Bolt.
You need faster damage, so dropping the fail rate even a bit, is
a big help.
> And this is where the higher int for a mage comes in: it will be
>higher, on average, whether you push it or not, and it's quite possible
>that it could push you over a "jump" point, which would result in
>suffiicent compensation. If you *do* decide to push it, then it
>definitely will.
Probably not; one break point doesn't do that much.
>> That's the other big factor: mages, perhaps more than any
>> other class, gain power at *specific* levels. The only
>> comparable cases are rangers at 20th/40th (extra shots),
>> and priests at 9th (OoD). For a mage, the big ones
>> are 37th and 45nd (?) for Genocide (assuming no Kelek's)
>> and GoI. Another big one is 25th, for Haste Self, because
>> you probably *won't* have Tenser's by that point.
>>
> Haste Self is feh for much longer than 25th, and I really don't have
>much use for it anyway until I'm well into 30th or so level (assume I'm
>a high-elf), when the monsters can actually do heavy damage at range.
>Now, if it still had a high-fail rate at this point, then the extra 6%
>would mean a good bit... Until then, I phase-door and stuff. If you
>don't have the jump, this power will be very very unreliable (well, at
>the higher-level spells anyway) and not worth casting, until the
>High-Elf catches up on it due to probably superior INT.
I like the Haste Self if I've had a chance to get a weapon of
extra attacks (Sting, Haradekket spring to mind). Even if you're
going to use spells, the speed always helps. Remember, you've
got Mim, among others, to contend with in this range. Mim takes
*forever* to finish off; Hasting gives you the advantage of
having to PD less, therefore less chance of popping out of the room
(hate that) and having him recover while you return.
>Venk
Craig Lewis
In article <Dss7v...@bton.ac.uk>, jc...@bton.ac.uk says...
>
>Craig Lewis (cle...@psl.nmsu.edu) wrote:
>: In article <DsMKF...@bton.ac.uk>, jc...@bton.ac.uk says...
>: >RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu wrote:
>: >:
>: >: Is it possible to program in a Theft command so Player Rogues can a
>ct
>: >: more like Nonplayer Rogues - stealing money, items... maybe snatch money b
>ack
>: >: that was stolen from you?
>: >
>: >That would be nice if you could do that.
>
>: Discussed and generally rejected.
>: The problem is that, now, the monster drop is only determined when the
>: monster is killed, NOT when it's created. Maintaining a monster inventory
>: is a pain. But the bigger pain is with monsters that have very good
>: items. You'd keep Farmer Maggot alive for quite a while...STEAL the
>: magical items he has, then leave him alone. When you leave the level,
>: then return, and he shows up again...he's been re-generated, *with
>: by this (*especially* Wormy), and in order to prevent this, you'd
>: have to got thru considerable contortions.
>
>to the monsters which is set when the creature is succesfully stolen from. If
>the creature was killed and the dropped flag was on it wouldn't drop anything.
>You still wouldn't be able to steal back things taken from you, but a new flag
>doesn't sound that hard to implement.
>
>If you successfully stole from the monster it's normal item drop would be
>generated and the dropped flag set.
What about a monster, like Wormy, that drops multiple items?
How are you going to save this flag between levels? The monsters are
wiped when you change levels.
>I don't know what you'd do about uniques being recreated with their full item
>allowance intact except disallow the theiving option if preserve was on.
Fine, I'll leave Preserve off. It's worth it to steal a dozen ego
items from Wormy over the course of 4 or 5 encounters with him...probably
only the first, and maybe the second, at any real risk.
Speaking of preserve: you also have to modify artifact generation.
When you're playing in non-preserve mode, when an artifact is generated,
it's flagged to NEVER be generated again. Now, you'd have to add
a flag that it was generated, but that it never 'appeared'. You may
never have run into the monster carrying it. (For example, when a
new monster is generated far away from you when you're about done
with a given level.)
>(I don't program C so I couldn't implement it myself)
>
>
>--
>Justine-W, killed by a kitten. Justine-A, killed by bumping into a wall
>Wolves Glen Pub page: www: http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~jcr1/wolves.html
>Meaningless junk brought to you by: J.C.R...@bton.ac.uk
--
leo...@alw.nih.gov
Regarding stealing from monsters: the way to implement this is not to
have a "stolen-from" *flag*, as Justin Rogers suggested (and Craig
Lewis correctly criticized), but rather a "items-left" *counter*.
This would probably be a byte, though it would really only need to 5
bits (0 - 31), because no monster carries more than 20 items. When a
monster is generated, roll up its number of items using its drop
flags. Whenever a player steals successfully from it, generate the
object right then, and decrement the monster's items-left counter.
(Assuming, of course, that items-left > 0; if not, "The <monster-type>
is not carrying anything!".) Of course, this does not go the whole
way to monster inventories, as some people might like, but it does
generate the same amount of treasure on a monster regardless of
whether you steal from it, kill it, or steal from then kill it. Which
is what is important.
As far as uniques go: yes, the easiest way to do this is simply make a
IMMUNE_THEFT flag as mik...@localnet.com suggests. The harder way to
do it would be to store the number of items with the permanent stuff
about uniques, which is currently pretty minimal.
Actually, it seems fairer to do both. Some uniques (and normal
monsters) should be difficult or impossible to steal from, as are
characters. (How does one pick the pocket of a grand master mystic?)
But stealing from a big, slow troll should be relatively easy.
-Leonard
Evan Thomas
leo...@alw.nih.gov wrote:
: Regarding stealing from monsters: the way to implement this is not to
How would you differentiate between objects and treasures? What about uniques
that come back later?
Ross Morgan-Linial
---------
[This space for rent]
Ross Morgan-Linial
rmor...@fhcrc.org
The same count is used for both objects and treasure. For a monster that
can drop both, there is no diffrence between them.
As he said, uniques that come back could be handled by a field in the
structure with info on uniques.
Personally, I like this idea. It seems balanced.
Greg Wooledge
Craig Lewis <cle...@psl.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>Not true, I don't believe. The mage wants to be using fire bolts
>and frost bolts, which aren't maxed out. Lightning bolt is too
>slow, and costs too much mana for the damage; magic missile
>is just *slow*.
Actually, magic missile and lightning bolt give awesome damage-to-mana
ratios. I haven't computed the tables for recent versions (since now
the damage per spell is right there in the book :-), but if it's
anywhere near that of 2.6, then the lower-level spells are wondrously
thrifty.
(I still remember 2.4.f-k, when MM was a constant 2d6, and was *still*
one of the highest damage-to-mana spells, especially for rangers! I had
tables, computed by hand from the source code, showing when each spell
became more efficient than MM [at 7:1] -- most ball spells never made
it, and lightning bolt was the big winner at high levels.)
(Of course, there's now the "beam" effect to consider as well. I always
thought lightning bolt should be the most likely to beam, but maybe
that's just my AD&D background speaking.)
--
Greg Wooledge <wool...@kellnet.com>
/\/\ "I don't want to dissect everything today
\/\/ I don't mean to pick you apart you see
/\/\ But I can't help it" -- A. Morissette
Ken King
>==========Justin Rogers, 6/10/96==========
I don't think you understand what that would take..Not only reworking
all monsters, but some monsters can drop up to *16* items...even if
you do bitwise manipulation that means adding 2 bytes to each record
in the monster array. that starts getting to be a lot of extra
space taken
for a minimally useful thing, at best.
>
>I don't know what you'd do about uniques being recreated with
>their full item
>allowance intact except disallow the theiving option if preserve was on.
>
>(I don't program C so I couldn't implement it myself)
>
>
>--
>Justine-W, killed by a kitten. Justine-A, killed by bumping into a wall
>Wolves Glen Pub page: www:
>http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~jcr1/wolves.html
>Meaningless junk brought to you by: J.C.R...@bton.ac.uk
Ken King
NCR - Shared Development & Services
Kennet...@Daytonoh.ncr.com
Craig Lewis
In article <1996061218...@crunchy.dcrt.nih.gov>, leo...@alw.nih.gov says...
>
>Regarding stealing from monsters: the way to implement this is not to
>have a "stolen-from" *flag*, as Justin Rogers suggested (and Craig
>Lewis correctly criticized), but rather a "items-left" *counter*.
>This would probably be a byte, though it would really only need to 5
>bits (0 - 31), because no monster carries more than 20 items. When a
>monster is generated, roll up its number of items using its drop
>flags. Whenever a player steals successfully from it, generate the
>object right then, and decrement the monster's items-left counter.
>(Assuming, of course, that items-left > 0; if not, "The <monster-type>
>is not carrying anything!".) Of course, this does not go the whole
>way to monster inventories, as some people might like, but it does
>generate the same amount of treasure on a monster regardless of
>whether you steal from it, kill it, or steal from then kill it. Which
>is what is important.
If the idea is feasible (which is still questionable), then this would
be a better approach. It avoids most of the problems. Not sure if
one field would be enough, tho; do the various flags, like DROP_GOOD
and DROP_GREAT apply to *all* the items dropped? I'm especially thinking
of Tiamat, who has multiple quantity indicators.
You still have the problem of saving the info. And the converse:
the fact that for most monsters, you do NOT want to save the info. :-)
It's only the uniques where the info should be saved between levels.
>As far as uniques go: yes, the easiest way to do this is simply make a
>IMMUNE_THEFT flag as mik...@localnet.com suggests. The harder way to
>do it would be to store the number of items with the permanent stuff
>about uniques, which is currently pretty minimal.
>
>Actually, it seems fairer to do both. Some uniques (and normal
>monsters) should be difficult or impossible to steal from, as are
>characters. (How does one pick the pocket of a grand master mystic?)
>But stealing from a big, slow troll should be relatively easy.
I think you'd want to save the items_left count regardless.
Again: a good example is Maggot. I'll take a first run to 50',
make 3rd or 4th lvl, then return to town and wait for Maggot.
Steal his item, then return to the dungeon. Wormy, also; yeah,
he can steal, but at least to me he doesn't deserve the IMMUNE_THEFT
flag...but if you're NOT saving the count, you'd really almost have
to give it to him.
>-Leonard
Johan Kullstam
ler...@classic26.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de wrote:
: Saluton!
: : >In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
: : >plug...@ix.netcom.com(Larry Craighead) wrote:
: : >> I just don't get why some people like
: : >> gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to
: : great
: : >> stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because
: : mages
: : >> are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
: Well, I like gnomes because ... I like gnomes.
i make a gnome mage because i can't make a half troll mage.
all the mage chars have sucky hitpoints.
i don't get why people play dunadin or high elves. is the slightly better
starting stats worth the drag of double exp?
johan kullstam
: Ad Astra!
: JuL
: ler...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de / Never disturb a dragon, for you will
: J"urgen ''JuL'' Lerch / be crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
--
johan kullstam
j...@unlgrad1.unl.edu
Aran Zontine
In article <Dswvp...@kellnet.com>,
Greg Wooledge <wool...@kellnet.com> wrote:
>Craig Lewis <cle...@psl.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>
>>Not true, I don't believe. The mage wants to be using fire bolts
>>and frost bolts, which aren't maxed out. Lightning bolt is too
>>slow, and costs too much mana for the damage; magic missile
>>is just *slow*.
Magic missile is slow, but does a decent amount of damage, can't be
resisted, and once your int is high enough it might as well be free
since the mana comes back so fast. If I haven't found a good ranged
weapon yet with a mage then I kill Mim with magic missile, the most
recent time I've done that he didn't even get to touch me (and he
dropped me a ring of speed +8 too :)
>Actually, magic missile and lightning bolt give awesome damage-to-mana
>ratios. I haven't computed the tables for recent versions (since now
>the damage per spell is right there in the book :-), but if it's
>anywhere near that of 2.6, then the lower-level spells are wondrously
>thrifty.
Magic missile is probably my most used damage spell. If you're faster
than the monsters and standing a good distance away (and the monsters are
something like trolls or orcs or some other not to lethal creature) then
you can just MM them all to death and be down almost no mana. I set up a
macro on the ' key to be *tmaa and I just keep tapping it.
>(I still remember 2.4.f-k, when MM was a constant 2d6, and was *still*
>one of the highest damage-to-mana spells, especially for rangers! I had
>tables, computed by hand from the source code, showing when each spell
>became more efficient than MM [at 7:1] -- most ball spells never made
>it, and lightning bolt was the big winner at high levels.)
I'm almost positive that 2.4.f-k did not have constant dam for MM.
I can't check it out right now cause my hard drive crash ruined the
hard drive it was on.
>(Of course, there's now the "beam" effect to consider as well. I always
>thought lightning bolt should be the most likely to beam, but maybe
>that's just my AD&D background speaking.)
Lightning bolt should bounce off walls too. Also in 2.4.f-k you had
the cone of cold spell which always beamed, damage was good when you first
got it, but once you were high level it wasn't really worth it (damage
dice were fixed at 6d8 I believe but not positive).
One thing I'd love to see are the "following [elemental type] bolt"
spells from rolemaster. They go in a straight line but instead of running
into the wall at the end of the corridor it would follow the curvature of
the tunnel. Dunno what it should do when it hits a T-section or when it
hits a wall in a room.
Another feature I miss from 2.4.f-k is fire ball spells destroying doors.
I had a halfling mage that was so weak he couldn't possibly break down
through jammed doors, and that rod of fire balls (that came very out of
depth) was _the_ most useful tool for getting past those obstacles. Also
conveniently made more room for drops.
>Greg Wooledge <wool...@kellnet.com>
>/\/\ "I don't want to dissect everything today
>\/\/ I don't mean to pick you apart you see
>/\/\ But I can't help it" -- A. Morissette
>
_____
Miles
Aran Zontine
In article <4po858$g...@crcnis3.unl.edu>,
Johan Kullstam <j...@unlgrad1.unl.edu> wrote:
>ler...@classic26.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de wrote:
>: Saluton!
>
>: : >In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>: : >plug...@ix.netcom.com(Larry Craighead) wrote:
>: : >> I just don't get why some people like
>: : >> gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to
>: : great
>: : >> stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because
>: : mages
>: : >> are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
>: Well, I like gnomes because ... I like gnomes.
>
>i make a gnome mage because i can't make a half troll mage.
>all the mage chars have sucky hitpoints.
>i don't get why people play dunadin or high elves. is the slightly better
>starting stats worth the drag of double exp?
>
>johan kullstam
>
>
I can understand playing high-elves for the see invis and really good
starting stats. The 'slight' difference usually puts you over certain
breakpoints for swings and mana gain. Plus a halfway decent starting
con and str, along with high stealth and perception. Dunedain, on the
other hand, I can't figure out what it is about them that supports the
huge difference in exp needed. To me sustain con is nowhere near the
benefit for a starting player as the sustain str half-trolls get. Sure
con has a high benefit but the jump for con is so wide that usually you
can't get any more out of it.
>: Ad Astra!
>: JuL
>
>: ler...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de / Never disturb a dragon, for you will
>: J"urgen ''JuL'' Lerch / be crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
>
>--
>johan kullstam
>j...@unlgrad1.unl.edu
_____
Miles
Ronald Neumann
Johan Kullstam (j...@unlgrad1.unl.edu) wrote:
: ler...@classic26.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de wrote:
: : Saluton!
: : : >In article <4og3hr$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
: : : >plug...@ix.netcom.com(Larry Craighead) wrote:
: : : >> I just don't get why some people like
: : : >> gnomes, half-elves, or elves. Hobbits are understandable due to
: : : great
: : : >> stealth. Especially confusing to me is the gnome mage, because
: : : mages
: : : >> are the characters in most dire need of more HP.
: : Well, I like gnomes because ... I like gnomes.
: i make a gnome mage because i can't make a half troll mage.
: all the mage chars have sucky hitpoints.
Try a half-orc rogue.I think that they are quite a bit of a challenge.
Gnome and hobbit *warriors* can seriously kick butt,too.
: i don't get why people play dunadin or high elves. is the slightly better
: starting stats worth the drag of double exp?
Try out a Dunadan Ranger in maximize mode.IIRC,the "worst" stat will max
out at 18/120 (WIS).Add to this sustained constitution and extra shots plus
most mage spells and you get a real monster of a character.Been there,done
that.My character was level 34 around 1900' when the savefile apparently got
erased,and wasn't feeling a bit uncomfortable,though no res.poison yet.
High elves and Dunedain also have better hit dice,meaning they have much
better chances of surviving the early levels than,e.g. gnomes/hobbits.
Ronald Neumann
Craig Lewis (cle...@psl.nmsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <1996061218...@crunchy.dcrt.nih.gov>, leo...@alw.nih.gov says...
: >
: >Regarding stealing from monsters: the way to implement this is not to
: >have a "stolen-from" *flag*, as Justin Rogers suggested (and Craig
: >Lewis correctly criticized), but rather a "items-left" *counter*.
: >This would probably be a byte, though it would really only need to 5
: >bits (0 - 31), because no monster carries more than 20 items. When a
: >monster is generated, roll up its number of items using its drop
: >flags. Whenever a player steals successfully from it, generate the
: >object right then, and decrement the monster's items-left counter.
: >(Assuming, of course, that items-left > 0; if not, "The <monster-type>
: >is not carrying anything!".) Of course, this does not go the whole
: >way to monster inventories, as some people might like, but it does
: >generate the same amount of treasure on a monster regardless of
: >whether you steal from it, kill it, or steal from then kill it. Which
: >is what is important.
: If the idea is feasible (which is still questionable), then this would
: be a better approach. It avoids most of the problems. Not sure if
: one field would be enough, tho; do the various flags, like DROP_GOOD
: and DROP_GREAT apply to *all* the items dropped? I'm especially thinking
: of Tiamat, who has multiple quantity indicators.
They do.Her entry mentions "She may carry up to 18 exceptional objects."
I *think* that there are no more than six different quantity indicators
-DROP_60,DROP_90,and DROP_1D2 to DROP_4D2,the game doesn't accept other
combinations,so it's just a way to get a particular number of items dropped.
The big problem i see is that stealing from monsters,especially from those
with DROP_GOOD or DROP_GREAT,might give you a great advantage,perhaps even
fighting that very monster.For a really gross example:
You go to level100,wait until Morgy shows up and simply empty his pocketses.
Sooner or later you will get his crown.Put it on,and you have all stats
maxxed out,even with quite a lot to spare.I think that the crown is one
of the best things you can have if you want to fight him :)
Other problem:you could get all the drops out of an orc/troll pit even
when the floor is completely covered with stuff.
I don't like the idea.
David T Quinn
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 12-Jun-96 Re: Another
idea by Ken Ki...@daytonoh.attgis
>
>I don't think you understand what that would take..Not only reworking
>all monsters, but some monsters can drop up to *16* items...even if
>you do bitwise manipulation that means adding 2 bytes to each record
>in the monster array. that starts getting to be a lot of extra
>space taken
>for a minimally useful thing, at best.
>
Since it seems to be such a pain in the butt for rogues to steal
from monsters, why not allow rogues to steal from townspeople instead?
I know what your thinking, but I don't mean battle scarred veterans and
aimless looking merchants, I mean shopkeepers. Rogues would try to make
away with an item of their choice. If the thief were good, the
shopkeeper might not notice and the thiefs walks away with a nice item.
On the other hand if the shopkeeper noticed, the thief would be tossed
outside and have to fight through a pack of town guardsmen (i think town
guardsmen should be added with or without the addition of the thief
command, the town needs them to keep adventurers from slaying the entire
population at such regular intervals ;) ) in addition to being banned
from the shop for a long while.
Another idea I had for rogues would be to break into houses in the
town. As it is, the town only takes up a small portion of the map. I
am not sure if town size is vital to the code, but if it werent, houses
could be added and rogues could try their luck at breaking in. A
success of a theft command on a house might lead to an item drop (not
sure how good) or perhaps you gain entrance to the house which would be
filled with heavily trapped chests or something.
All in all, I think there are a lot of things rogues should be
allowed to do that other classes cannot. If they cant do them in the
dungeon, why not let them wreck havoc on the town when they come up? :)
And as a final note, I have not yet looked at the source code, so for
all I know what I am proposing might be totally ridiculous.
-Quinn
Venkatesh Natarajan
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 13-Jun-96 Re: Angband
Theory and Stra.. by Aran Zon...@u.washingto
> I can understand playing high-elves for the see invis and really good
> starting stats. The 'slight' difference usually puts you over certain
> breakpoints for swings and mana gain. Plus a halfway decent starting
> con and str, along with high stealth and perception. Dunedain, on the
> other hand, I can't figure out what it is about them that supports the
> huge difference in exp needed. To me sustain con is nowhere near the
> benefit for a starting player as the sustain str half-trolls get. Sure
> con has a high benefit but the jump for con is so wide that usually you
> can't get any more out of it.
>
Dunedain have better starting stats, if you want to be a
priestly/paladinly character (high-elves *can't* be paladins, but that's
a different point), and perhaps a smidge better for warriors as well.
For the mage/ranger/rogue guys, high-elves win.
And a Dunedain's XP penalty isn't quite as bad as high-elves.
> >: Ad Astra!
> >: JuL
> >
> >: ler...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de / Never disturb a dragon,
for you w
Venk
Ken King
>==========leo...@alw.nih.gov, 6/12/96==========
>
>Regarding stealing from monsters: the way to implement this is not to
>have a "stolen-from" *flag*, as Justin Rogers suggested (and Craig
>Lewis correctly criticized), but rather a "items-left" *counter*.
>This would probably be a byte, though it would really only need to 5
>bits (0 - 31), because no monster carries more than 20 items. When a
>monster is generated, roll up its number of items using its drop
>flags. Whenever a player steals successfully from it, generate the
>object right then, and decrement the monster's items-left counter.
>(Assuming, of course, that items-left > 0; if not, "The <monster-type>
>is not carrying anything!".) Of course, this does not go the whole
>way to monster inventories, as some people might like, but it does
>generate the same amount of treasure on a monster regardless of
>whether you steal from it, kill it, or steal from then kill it. Which
>is what is important.
>
>As far as uniques go: yes, the easiest way to do this is simply make a
>IMMUNE_THEFT flag as mik...@localnet.com suggests. The harder way to
>do it would be to store the number of items with the permanent stuff
>about uniques, which is currently pretty minimal.
Actually, it wouldn't be that much harder. Ben is breaking the uniques
into a u_info.txt file for 2.8.0, and I think it would be rather
trivial to
incorporate some 'permanent data storage' technique for any given
character's set of uniques.
As I say that, though, I am still not sure I agree with allowing theft.
Just because a monster has 20 good drops doesn't mean it is
going to drop that many items. A theft attack like that would
certainly have to include a possible success, reduce the counter
by one, and yet still not get an item on a random probability. I
also think it takes away the strategy of killing monsters with
large drops in open areas to take advantage of the drop, yet
having to contend with summoned monsters, etc. You can
just nitpick the monster and never worry about the dangers.
I think that can become a leading target for abuse.
>
>Actually, it seems fairer to do both. Some uniques (and normal
>monsters) should be difficult or impossible to steal from, as are
>characters. (How does one pick the pocket of a grand master mystic?)
>But stealing from a big, slow troll should be relatively easy.
>
>-Leonard
Aran Zontine
In article <glkBzuW00...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
Venkatesh Natarajan <v...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 13-Jun-96 Re: Angband
>Theory and Stra.. by Aran Zon...@u.washingto
>>
>> I can understand playing high-elves for the see invis and really good
>> starting stats. The 'slight' difference usually puts you over certain
>> breakpoints for swings and mana gain. Plus a halfway decent starting
>> con and str, along with high stealth and perception. Dunedain, on the
>> other hand, I can't figure out what it is about them that supports the
>> huge difference in exp needed. To me sustain con is nowhere near the
>> benefit for a starting player as the sustain str half-trolls get. Sure
>> con has a high benefit but the jump for con is so wide that usually you
>> can't get any more out of it.
>>
>
> Dunedain have better starting stats, if you want to be a
>priestly/paladinly character (high-elves *can't* be paladins, but that's
>a different point), and perhaps a smidge better for warriors as well.
>For the mage/ranger/rogue guys, high-elves win.
I prefer dwarves or half-trolls for priests, haven't ever enjoyed
playing paladins.
> And a Dunedain's XP penalty isn't quite as bad as high-elves.
According to the spoilers the XP penalty is the same for Dunedain
and High-Elves (210% for that High-Elf mage I'm playing, bleh)
>
>Venk
_____
Miles
RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu
On top of (or maybe instead of) this notion of flags, why not give the
specials a ridiculously high defense against theft. Since they're supposed to
be powerful anyway, it would make sense that they've learned to gaurd against
such things. And as the character gets better at pickpocketing (or how about
pursecutting?), (s)he'd have a better chance of beating the role.
Then again, if the `protect stat' (presumably something different from
dexterity) was insurmountably high, then you wouldn't have the option to bleed
the special characters over and over again.
-Bob
Justin Rogers
I heard that somebody followed up to my post concering the Dropped flag idea,
unfortuneatley our news system has been down for a day or so, and I missed it.
Could somebody please forward or summerize it to me?
Thanks.
Andrew Bishop (The onceler)
Craig Lewis (cle...@psl.nmsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <DsMKF...@bton.ac.uk>, jc...@bton.ac.uk says...
: >RCON...@uriacc.uri.edu wrote:
: >:
: >: Is it possible to program in a Theft command so Player
: >: Rogues can act more like Nonplayer Rogues - stealing money,
: >: items... maybe snatch money back that was stolen from you?
: >
: >That would be nice if you could do that.
: Discussed and generally rejected.
: The problem is that, now, the monster drop is only determined when the
: monster is killed, NOT when it's created. Maintaining a monster inventory
: is a pain. But the bigger pain is with monsters that have very good
: items. You'd keep Farmer Maggot alive for quite a while...STEAL the
: magical items he has, then leave him alone. When you leave the level,
: then return, and he shows up again...he's been re-generated, *with
: more items*. Maggot and Wormtongue are the 2 most easily abused
: by this (*especially* Wormy), and in order to prevent this, you'd
: have to got thru considerable contortions.
This argument only looks at _half_ of the question. I agree, that theft of
objects is too hard to implement without introducing an enormous potential
for abuse. But what about allowing rogues to steal gold? By linking the
amount of gold stealable to the XP gain for killing the creature (perhaps
with a hack to allow townsfolk to have _some_ gold when you're a low level
character), this would disallow theft scumming - if it can't hurt you, you
won't be getting more than 2 or 3 gold a round, and if it *can* hurt you,
you won't want to stand next to it for too long...
If you want to stand next to Wormy for a couple of rounds just to get a
couple of hundred gold, go for it! If you're high enough level to not
take too much damage, you don't need the money.
(I admit, theft scumming for cash would still be *possible*, but not
easy, and especially not easy for characters at a low enough level that
gold actually matters)
What are the general thoughts on this idea?
My thoughts: It may unbalance the game a *bit*. The relationship between
gold and XP can be set such that this change won't be unbalancing at low
levels, and gold just isn't important at high levels. I think the
possible slight unbalancing at the low-medium levels (level 10-20 or so)
is worth it.
Andrew Bishop
Matt Craighead
In <4po858$g...@crcnis3.unl.edu> j...@unlgrad1.unl.edu (Johan Kullstam)
writes:
[snip]
>i make a gnome mage because i can't make a half troll mage.
>all the mage chars have sucky hitpoints.
better
>starting stats worth the drag of double exp?
Well, those aren't the ONLY advantages.
1. If in maximize mode, you also get higher maximum stats than most
races.
2. The stats aren't always just "slightly better". For example,
high-elves give bonuses to all 3 fighting stats (STR/DEX/CON) whereas a
gnome gets minuses to all but DEX.
3. They have better hitdice than half-elves, elves, gnomes, and
hobbits. Very important for mages.
4. They have wonderful skills; in particular, high-elves get large
bonuses to fighting (melee and bow), saving throw, and stealth (the
more important ones IMO).
Also, why would you make a half-troll mage? I believe that all your
stats would get minuses to them in the end, not at all worth a few more
hitdice.
And as others have posted, double exp makes you lose 1 or 2 levels at
most.
Matt Craighead
Venkatesh Natarajan
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 16-Jun-96 Re: Angband
Theory and Stra.. by Matt Crai...@ix.netcom
> >i make a gnome mage because i can't make a half troll mage.
> >all the mage chars have sucky hitpoints.
> >i don't get why people play dunadin or high elves. is the slightly
> better
> >starting stats worth the drag of double exp?
>
> Well, those aren't the ONLY advantages.
>
> 1. If in maximize mode, you also get higher maximum stats than most
> races.
> 2. The stats aren't always just "slightly better". For example,
> high-elves give bonuses to all 3 fighting stats (STR/DEX/CON) whereas a
> gnome gets minuses to all but DEX.
> 3. They have better hitdice than half-elves, elves, gnomes, and
> hobbits. Very important for mages.
> 4. They have wonderful skills; in particular, high-elves get large
> bonuses to fighting (melee and bow), saving throw, and stealth (the
> more important ones IMO).
>
> Also, why would you make a half-troll mage? I believe that all your
> stats would get minuses to them in the end, not at all worth a few more
> hitdice.
>
One very minor point: (I agree with everything else here) A
Half-Troll mage would, if it could exist, get +1 to CON, I think.
> And as others have posted, double exp makes you lose 1 or 2 levels at
> most.
>
> Matt Craighead
Venk
Matt Craighead
In <4prfcb$b...@nntp4.u.washington.edu> ni...@u.washington.edu (Aran
Zontine) writes:
>
>In article <glkBzuW00...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>Venkatesh Natarajan <v...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
Angband
High elves actually get 120%, I believe.
>>
>>Venk
>
>_____
>Miles
Matt Craighead
Joseph William Dixon
In a fit of madness Aran Zontine wrote:
: I can understand playing high-elves for the see invis and really good
: starting stats. The 'slight' difference usually puts you over certain
: breakpoints for swings and mana gain. Plus a halfway decent starting
: con and str, along with high stealth and perception. Dunedain, on the
: other hand, I can't figure out what it is about them that supports the
: huge difference in exp needed. To me sustain con is nowhere near the
: benefit for a starting player as the sustain str half-trolls get. Sure
: con has a high benefit but the jump for con is so wide that usually you
: can't get any more out of it.
Well, I've had Dunadain Rangers and Priests start with *all* stats at
18 or above, on less than 500 rolls. And Dunadain Paladins with all but
INT at 18 or above... [unfortunately you can't start with 18/50 for INT
or WIS as a Dunadan, except for Mages (but that's *very* unlikely), so I
don't play them much]
|=====Joseph W. Dixon====aa...@ccn.cs.dal.ca====Gumby====Team AMIGA=====|
| "The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out / The ones that go in are |
| lean and thin / The ones that come out are fat and stout / Your eyes |
| fall in and your teeth fall out / Your brains come tumbling down your |
| snout / Be merry, my friends, be merry" ("Worms", by The Pogues) |
|=======================================================================|
Venkatesh Natarajan
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 16-Jun-96 Re: Angband
Theory and Stra.. by Joseph William Dixon@ccn
> Well, I've had Dunadain Rangers and Priests start with *all* stats at
> 18 or above, on less than 500 rolls. And Dunadain Paladins with all but
> INT at 18 or above... [unfortunately you can't start with 18/50 for INT
> or WIS as a Dunadan, except for Mages (but that's *very* unlikely), so I
> don't play them much]
>
I didn't think this was possible for a Dunadan priest???
Wouldn't the INT have to be below 18?
Venk
Justin Rogers
Justin Rogers (jc...@bton.ac.uk) wrote:
: I heard that somebody followed up to my post concering the Dropped flag idea,
: Could somebody please forward or summerize it to me?
I've now seen the post, and the ciritisms make sense, I guess that my idea was
written without too much thought.
Ken King
>==========Andrew Bishop (The onceler), 6/15/96==========
My question is the same as always to these things..What does it
really add to the game? So you get a little more 'thief-like' activity
in a rogue, but what else? The gain is insignificant, the implementation
would not be pretty. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to add
something like that. Since everyone seems so concerned about
rogues stealing, maybe the perception should just change. A rogue
doesn't necessarily imply some sort of a bandit, or even an outlaw.
A rogue can just be a scoundrel, a brash person, etc. The name
'rogue' doesn't mean that they partake in illegal activities.
The entire arguement is too focused on trying to make the rogue
like the D&D thief.
>
>Andrew Bishop
Greg Wooledge
Venkatesh Natarajan <v...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> One very minor point: (I agree with everything else here) A
>Half-Troll mage would, if it could exist, get +1 to CON, I think.
I've slightly modified my copy of 2.7.9v3 to allow any race to become
any class. I did try a half-troll mage once, just out of curiosity.
That character died off rather early on, and I haven't tried any more
yet.
A new combo I found quite good was half-troll paladin. Saving throws
still suck, but not as bad as 1/2-T warrior, and the spells more than
make up for that.
--
Greg Wooledge <wool...@kellnet.com>
=== Southern Baptist - n. 1. church whose leaders wish for an increase in ===
=== human disease and injury 2. a member of the Southern Baptist Church ===
Daniel Damouth
In article <1996061218...@crunchy.dcrt.nih.gov>,
<leo...@alw.nih.gov> wrote:
>Regarding stealing from monsters: the way to implement this is not to
>have a "stolen-from" *flag*, as Justin Rogers suggested (and Craig
>Lewis correctly criticized), but rather a "items-left" *counter*.
Surely the correct way to implement this is to add monster
inventories. The advantages are many, including the ability
to steal back what has previously been stolen from you (as opposed
to stealing randomly generated stuff); the ability to get back
stuff that was picked up or stolen by a monster when you kill him;
and (eventually) the capability of monsters for using items, as
they surely should be able to.
All these proposals are merely hacks attempting to simulate monster
inventories. What the heck is wrong with doing the logical thing,
the flexible thing, the real thing?
Implementation complexity should not be an issue. Monster inventories
have been around in most of the other rogue-like games for a long time.
It really is just a matter of book-keeping. In spite of all the effort
that has been invested in the Angband interface and in bells-and-whistles,
improvements in the actual game engine are long overdue.
-Dan
Chris Kousky
Venkatesh Natarajan wrote:
>
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 16-Jun-96 Re: Angband
> > [snip]
> > >i make a gnome mage because i can't make a half troll mage.
> > >all the mage chars have sucky hitpoints.
> > >i don't get why people play dunadin or high elves. is the slightly
> > better
> > >starting stats worth the drag of double exp?
> >
> > Well, those aren't the ONLY advantages.
> >
> > 1. If in maximize mode, you also get higher maximum stats than most
> > races.
> > 2. The stats aren't always just "slightly better". For example,
> > high-elves give bonuses to all 3 fighting stats (STR/DEX/CON) whereas a
> > gnome gets minuses to all but DEX.
> > 3. They have better hitdice than half-elves, elves, gnomes, and
> > hobbits. Very important for mages.
> > 4. They have wonderful skills; in particular, high-elves get large
> > bonuses to fighting (melee and bow), saving throw, and stealth (the
> > more important ones IMO).
> >
> > Also, why would you make a half-troll mage? I believe that all your
> > stats would get minuses to them in the end, not at all worth a few more
> > hitdice.
> >
>
> Half-Troll mage would, if it could exist, get +1 to CON, I think.
Con 18 for a Dun mage. Don't know if this has changed recently, tho.
Chris
Craig Lewis
In article <4pvf7c$3...@student.anu.edu.au>, onc...@brucehall20.anu.edu.au says...
>
>: The problem is that, now, the monster drop is only determined when the
>: monster is killed, NOT when it's created. Maintaining a monster inventory
>: is a pain. But the bigger pain is with monsters that have very good
>: items. You'd keep Farmer Maggot alive for quite a while...STEAL the
>: magical items he has, then leave him alone. When you leave the level,
>: then return, and he shows up again...he's been re-generated, *with
>: more items*. Maggot and Wormtongue are the 2 most easily abused
>: by this (*especially* Wormy), and in order to prevent this, you'd
>: have to got thru considerable contortions.
>
>This argument only looks at _half_ of the question. I agree, that theft of
>objects is too hard to implement without introducing an enormous potential
>for abuse. But what about allowing rogues to steal gold? By linking the
>amount of gold stealable to the XP gain for killing the creature (perhaps
>with a hack to allow townsfolk to have _some_ gold when you're a low level
>character), this would disallow theft scumming - if it can't hurt you, you
>won't be getting more than 2 or 3 gold a round, and if it *can* hurt you,
>you won't want to stand next to it for too long...
You'd also have to connect it to the monster's drop. A nether hound gives
LOTS of xp, but it isn't carrying any gold.
But you're answering your own question: the attack is useless. When
you can afford the time, you won't get anything for using it, and when
you can get something, you can't afford the time.
>Andrew Bishop
Craig Lewis
In article <glkBzuW00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, v...@andrew.cmu.edu says...
>
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 13-Jun-96 Re: Angband
>Theory and Stra.. by Aran Zon...@u.washingto
>> I can understand playing high-elves for the see invis and really good
>> starting stats. The 'slight' difference usually puts you over certain
>> breakpoints for swings and mana gain. Plus a halfway decent starting
>> con and str, along with high stealth and perception. Dunedain, on the
>> other hand, I can't figure out what it is about them that supports the
>> huge difference in exp needed. To me sustain con is nowhere near the
>> benefit for a starting player as the sustain str half-trolls get. Sure
>> con has a high benefit but the jump for con is so wide that usually you
>> can't get any more out of it.
>>
>
>priestly/paladinly character (high-elves *can't* be paladins, but that's
>a different point), and perhaps a smidge better for warriors as well.
>For the mage/ranger/rogue guys, high-elves win.
In stats: HEs are better for Int, Dex, and Char; dunedain for Wis
and Con. So, there, it depends on what you're looking for, yes.
In *skills*: HEs win hands down. Even in melee, +1 stealth, slight
search advantage (VERY slight), +15 to bows...and +15 to SAVES.
HE also has infravision, at enough range to actually be useful
(even when you get the Phial).
Sustain Con isn't important early, but it's valuable later. Losing
Str isn't necessarily lethal; losing Con *is*. Which one you
prefer, tho, is pretty much a matter of choice. But there is just
no comparison between a half troll and a dunadan. Half trolls
have 2 things in their favor: great melee skills, and great hit
dice. But they are HORRIBLE in absolutely every other area of the
game. For comparison:
Warrior
STR INT WIS DEX CON CHA Dis Srh Stl Fos Thn Thb Sav HD Inf XP
H-Troll +9 -6 -4 -2 +5 -7 20 13 -1 43 90 45 10 21 3 120%
Duned +6 0 -1 +4 +5 +1 29 17 3 35 85 65 23 19 0 180%
Melee skill is Thn. Note that the dunadan is *only* 5 points lower;
this is less than +2 to-hit. Some others: Stl is Stealth...a half
troll needs a +4 cloak or boots of stealth to pull even with the
dunadan.
Basically: I think HEs are much easier in the early game than are
dunedain. Later on, tho, except for mages, the HE's advantages
are mooted...by items (see invis is everywhere, res blindness to counter the
side effect of Light attacks, ESP rendering infravision almost
completely unnecessary), or by no longer being needed...the Char
bonus for an HE is *nice* early, really helps you get useful
items, but really, once you break 18/50 you don't much care.
And now, the Con bonus becomes useful for all char classes,
and the Sus Con is an ability you may well *not* have from equipment.
>
> And a Dunedain's XP penalty isn't quite as bad as high-elves.
False. Dunedain and high elves have the exact same xp penalty.
(Unless this was changed in 2.7.9.6.)
>> >: Ad Astra!
>> >: JuL
>> >
>> >: ler...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de / Never disturb a dragon,
>for you w
>
>
>Venk
--
Craig Lewis
In article <4llIkbG00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, v...@andrew.cmu.edu says...
Nope. It could be as high as 18/10 (maximize).
But I don't see how you got ALL the stats to 18+, unless you tweaked
character generation. Not possible to do this; you've only got
84 points before race/class adjustments. That means a base 14
for each stat. Dunadan ranger gets +4 Int/Con, +3 Str/Dex/Char,
+1 Wis...but that's still only 2 18's, 3 17's, and a 15.
Dunadan priest gets slightly fewer stat points; only +15,
not +18, total.
Venkatesh Natarajan
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 19-Jun-96 Re: Angband
Theory and Stra.. by Craig Le...@psl.nmsu.edu
> dunedain. Later on, tho, except for mages, the HE's advantages
> are mooted...by items (see invis is everywhere, res blindness to counter the
> side effect of Light attacks, ESP rendering infravision almost
> completely unnecessary), or by no longer being needed...the Char
> bonus for an HE is *nice* early, really helps you get useful
> items, but really, once you break 18/50 you don't much care.
> And now, the Con bonus becomes useful for all char classes,
> and the Sus Con is an ability you may well *not* have from equipment.
The *much* improved saving throw is _nice_ well into the game.
As is the Bow bonus....
Venk
Venkatesh Natarajan
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 19-Jun-96 Re: Angband
Theory and Stra.. by Craig Le...@psl.nmsu.edu
> >
>
> False. Dunedain and high elves have the exact same xp penalty.
> (Unless this was changed in 2.7.9.6.)
Tell that to my Dunedain rangers, who seem to need 23 as High-Elf,
and 21 as Dunedain to reach 2nd.
High-elves have 100% EXP penalty to levelling, Dunedain 80%, I think.
Venk
Venkatesh Natarajan
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.roguelike.angband: 19-Jun-96 Re: Angband
Theory and Stra.. by Craig Le...@psl.nmsu.edu
>
>
I'm trying the Dunedain Priest on the autoroller now, and I can only
get 17 STR and 16 INT.....
That's with Maximize on.
2.7.9.6
> But I don't see how you got ALL the stats to 18+, unless you tweaked
> character generation. Not possible to do this; you've only got
> 84 points before race/class adjustments. That means a base 14
> for each stat. Dunadan ranger gets +4 Int/Con, +3 Str/Dex/Char,
> +1 Wis...but that's still only 2 18's, 3 17's, and a 15.
> Dunadan priest gets slightly fewer stat points; only +15,
> not +18, total.
>
One CAN, however, get 5 stats up to or above 18... just shaft the CHR
(or whatever stat you please. Actually, shafting the WIS makes this
easiest, but WIS is actually useful, even for a ranger). So, 8 to CHR,
(before bonuses), 14 to CON, 15 to DEX, 16 to WIS, 14 to INT, 15 to STR
is 82. Extremely unlikely, but doable.
I've had a HE Ranger with all but WIS at or above 18 as well.
> >Venk
Venk
Craig Lewis
In article <Dt5Kt...@intruder.daytonoh.ncr.com>, Kennet...@daytonoh.attgis.com says...
>
>
>>==========Andrew Bishop (The onceler), 6/15/96==========
>>
>>: >: Rogues can act more like Nonplayer Rogues - stealing money,
>>: >: items... maybe snatch money back that was stolen from you?
>My question is the same as always to these things..What does it
>really add to the game? So you get a little more 'thief-like' activity
>in a rogue, but what else? The gain is insignificant, the implementation
>would not be pretty. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to add
>something like that. Since everyone seems so concerned about
>rogues stealing, maybe the perception should just change. A rogue
>doesn't necessarily imply some sort of a bandit, or even an outlaw.
>A rogue can just be a scoundrel, a brash person, etc. The name
>'rogue' doesn't mean that they partake in illegal activities.
>The entire arguement is too focused on trying to make the rogue
>like the D&D thief.
And even in 2nd Ed AD&D, they've tried to orient people *away* from this.
Sure, it's primarily PR, trying to counter the negative images that
FRPs have...but it's also true. There are ways to use a rogue's
skills in socially positive ways; you don't automatically have to
assume 'I am a thief, therefore I must steal'.
One negative reinforcement factor in Angband is the level titles...
cutpurse, burglar, footpad, filcher, thief, assassin. These don't
conjure up positive images.
>>
>>Andrew Bishop
>
>
>
>Ken King
>
>NCR - Shared Development & Services
>Kennet...@Daytonoh.ncr.com
--
leo...@alw.nih.gov
A couple of responses to comments I have seen on character thieving...
Dan Damouth writes:
>>Regarding stealing from monsters: the way to implement this is not to
>>have a "stolen-from" *flag*, as Justin Rogers suggested (and Craig
>>Lewis correctly criticized), but rather a "items-left" *counter*.
>
>Surely the correct way to implement this is to add monster
>inventories. The advantages are many... [snip!]
Well, true enough, but the disadvantage is also important: time and
difficulty to implement. Monster inventories are not trivial to
implement, whereas adding an items-left counter and making it work is
pretty simple.
Another problem is play balance. I personally don't think monster
inventories would change much, but I could certain understand someone
believing the opposite. Obviously, monster inventories would change
the dangerousness of thieves quite a bit if you could get your stuff
back. My proposal, on the other hand, is carefully crafted to change
the game as minimally as possible while preserving the "proper" number
of drops/steals possible from monsters. Whether this is a feature or
not is in the eye of the beholder.
Ken King writes:
>My question is the same as always to these things..What does it
>really add to the game? So you get a little more 'thief-like' activity
>in a rogue, but what else? The gain is insignificant, the implementation
>would not be pretty. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to add
>something like that.
The implementation of an items-left counter would *not* be complex,
probably 10 lines of code. This is more a matter of will to do it.
What it adds you see yourself: more 'thief-like' activity in a rogue.
Currently, rogues are basically slightly stealthier rangers who use
crossbows.
-Leonard
Craig Lewis
In article <4q9d4c$m...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, dam...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu says...
>>have a "stolen-from" *flag*, as Justin Rogers suggested (and Craig
>>Lewis correctly criticized), but rather a "items-left" *counter*.
>
>Surely the correct way to implement this is to add monster
>to steal back what has previously been stolen from you (as opposed
>to stealing randomly generated stuff); the ability to get back
>stuff that was picked up or stolen by a monster when you kill him;
>and (eventually) the capability of monsters for using items, as
>they surely should be able to.
Fine...let's just get rid of the touch to steal attacks. They would
have absolutely no use whatsoever any more.
>All these proposals are merely hacks attempting to simulate monster
>inventories. What the heck is wrong with doing the logical thing,
>the flexible thing, the real thing?
It is hard, it has some game balance implications, and it is simply
NO BIG DEAL!
>Implementation complexity should not be an issue. Monster inventories
>have been around in most of the other rogue-like games for a long time.
>It really is just a matter of book-keeping. In spite of all the effort
>that has been invested in the Angband interface and in bells-and-whistles,
>improvements in the actual game engine are long overdue.
Bull. Implementation complexity is a MAJOR issue. The work is done
by volunteers.
Improving the interface helps EVERY player, regardless of class or race,
and leads to a game that is more enjoyable to play. Therefore, it quite
rightly is rated more important than modifications that are of very
limited value.
>-Dan
Craig Lewis
In article <1996062113...@crunchy.dcrt.nih.gov>, leo...@alw.nih.gov says...
>
>
>A couple of responses to comments I have seen on character thieving...
>
>Dan Damouth writes:
>>>have a "stolen-from" *flag*, as Justin Rogers suggested (and Craig
>>>Lewis correctly criticized), but rather a "items-left" *counter*.
>>
>>Surely the correct way to implement this is to add monster
>
>Well, true enough, but the disadvantage is also important: time and
>difficulty to implement. Monster inventories are not trivial to
>implement, whereas adding an items-left counter and making it work is
>pretty simple.
>
>
>>My question is the same as always to these things..What does it
>>really add to the game? So you get a little more 'thief-like' activity
>>in a rogue, but what else? The gain is insignificant, the implementation
>>would not be pretty. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to add
>>something like that.
>
>The implementation of an items-left counter would *not* be complex,
>probably 10 lines of code. This is more a matter of will to do it.
No, it would be more than that. Several things would have to change
as well; for example, you would want to maintain this counter
permanently for all uniques (the Wormy/Maggot repeated steal problem),
and you would have to change the save file structure to accomodate
this.
>What it adds you see yourself: more 'thief-like' activity in a rogue.
>Currently, rogues are basically slightly stealthier rangers who use
>crossbows.
So? Would the game be *improved*? I don't think so.
>-Leonard
Charles C. Abney
In article <4qcp37$2...@bubba.nmsu.edu>,
cle...@psl.nmsu.edu (Craig Lewis) writes:
> Fine...let's just get rid of the touch to steal attacks. They would
> have absolutely no use whatsoever any more.
Your mouth may never drop open in anger and despair as that rogue disappears
in a puff of smoke, and you would never have to worry about your dexterity
again when he could be chased down. Ho hum.
> Improving the interface helps EVERY player, regardless of class or race,
> and leads to a game that is more enjoyable to play. Therefore, it quite
> [This sig intentionally left blank.]
Hear, hear! The game shouldn't be made easier (on the grounds that _other_
games have this feature?!), but better!
-Chuck
--
$? What is a $? We use Zorkmids, not $! -Nethackers response to spam.
victor brueggemann
<leo...@alw.nih.gov> wrote:
>
>A couple of responses to comments I have seen on character thieving...
>
>Dan Damouth writes:
>>>Regarding stealing from monsters: the way to implement this is not to
>>>have a "stolen-from" *flag*, as Justin Rogers suggested (and Craig
>>>Lewis correctly criticized), but rather a "items-left" *counter*.
>>
>>Surely the correct way to implement this is to add monster
>>inventories. The advantages are many... [snip!]
>
>Well, true enough, but the disadvantage is also important: time and
>difficulty to implement. Monster inventories are not trivial to
>implement, whereas adding an items-left counter and making it work is
>pretty simple.
>
>inventories would change much, but I could certain understand someone
>believing the opposite. Obviously, monster inventories would change
>the dangerousness of thieves quite a bit if you could get your stuff
>back.
Not if monsters then gain the ability to use the items that they steal.
The Bandit grabs at your backpack.
One of your scrolls of Mass Genocide was stolen.
There is a puff of smoke.
You have no more scrolls of Teleport Level. :) :) :)
As if that weren't bad enough, the game could then incorporate weapons of
Hurt Elf, or *Slay* Human.
What happens when the novice archer picks up a Heavy Crossbow of Extra
Shots (+4 Attacks)?
Ow! Oooh! Aiee! Ouch! Argh! Why you little &^$%&^$*%&!!!
>Ken King writes:
>>My question is the same as always to these things..What does it
>>really add to the game? So you get a little more 'thief-like' activity
>>in a rogue, but what else? The gain is insignificant, the implementation
>>would not be pretty. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to add
>>something like that.
It could potentially have a radical effect on the play of the game in
future versions, and makes even low-level monsters potentially dangerous
if they get a hold of a powerful item from the player. Mim has a Blade
of Chaos (Unholy Avenger)? Hmmm. Maybe we'll fight him on some other
level, or perhaps use the new spell which causes monsters to drop their
weapon. I wonder if he is immune to that? Hmm.
>What it adds you see yourself: more 'thief-like' activity in a rogue.
>Currently, rogues are basically slightly stealthier rangers who use
>crossbows.
I've always been of the opinion that instead of having spells, thieves
ought to be able to create traps that affect monsters, but I'm not
holding my breath.
Matt Craighead
brueggemann) writes:
[snip]
>What happens when the novice archer picks up a Heavy Crossbow of Extra
>Shots (+4 Attacks)?
>
>Ow! Oooh! Aiee! Ouch! Argh! Why you little &^$%&^$*%&!!!
No. (For one thing that's impossible to have that item, but...)
The Novice Archer picks up a Heavy Crossbow (x4).
The Novice Archer wields a Heavy Crossbow (x4).
You see the Novice Archer slump under the weight of the Heavy Crossbow
(x4)!
Matt Craighead