newbie needs help...
element
i have to confess i am a complete rougelike newbie, so can you
please tell me which angband variant you consider to be the best.
thx
fra...@my-deja.com
> howdie
> i have to confess i am a complete rougelike newbie, so can you
> please tell me which angband variant you consider to be the best.
My personal variant hitlist:
1. PernAngband - Much to discover and try out, but the graphics-support
is broken (missing titles) and the online-help is incomplete (the new
class isn't documentated). Probadly it still has lots of bugs -
generally I don't consider it a good variant for beginners.
2. ZAngband - Like Pern this one is feature-loaded but the graphics
work, the online-help is complete and the production quality is
generally better. But it's missing Pern's intresting new classes and
races so only no. 2 on my list - but as a newbie you should check this
one out!
3. Oangband - check this one out too!
4. Kangband - It's dead but It has some unique and cool features.
5. EyAngband - It's a brand new variant and it looks really promising.
Variants I don't like:
CthAngband - It could be a real cool variant, but I don't like the
skill system. "Learning by doing", that's the way a skill system should
work and not "Learning by doing it one special levels" also it's just
plain stupid that you have to let monsters hurt you, if you want to
improve your HPs. If you're a newbie, don't try this one!
(J)Angband/64 - Does anyone play it?
Frank
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Otto Martin
>i have to confess i am a complete rougelike newbie, so can you
>please tell me which angband variant you consider to be the best.
It's suggested that newbies start out with (Vanilla) Angband,
the newest version is 2.9.1 and you can get it from
http://thangorodrim.angband.org/
Otto Martin
--
"Yay! You made my bad dreams go away, Aylee!"
http://www.sluggy.com/d/001001.html
Andreas Koch
fra...@my-deja.com schrieb:
> 1. PernAngband - Much to discover and try out, but the graphics-support
> is broken (missing titles)
Oops, someone noticed it. I guess i should get 412 and do my job... :(
--
Andreas
Techniker:Nein, dieser Kopierer hat keinen automatischen
Einzug. Das sind die Lüftungsschlitze.
DarkGod
>
> fra...@my-deja.com schrieb:
> > 1. PernAngband - Much to discover and try out, but the graphics-support
> > is broken (missing titles)
--
-----------------------+----------------------------------------------
DarkGod comes from | Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards
the hells for YOU ! :) | because they are subtle and quick to anger.
-----------------------+----------------------------------------------
Pe W Olorin YSo L:50 DL:696 A+++ R+++ Sp++ w:Mage Staff of Mana(240%)
Pe*/M(Km)(Cr)(NH) D H- D c++ f- PV s- TT- d++ P++ M+ C- S++ I+++ So++
B/-
ac- GHB- SQ+ RQ V+++ F:Mage playing Mage-like(see Pernangband Sorcerors)
Andreas Koch
DarkGod schrieb:
> > > 1. PernAngband - Much to discover and try out, but the graphics-support
> > > is broken (missing titles)
> > Oops, someone noticed it. I guess i should get 412 and do my job... :(
> Lol yeah you should :)
Done and sent to you. Now THAT is fast service <taps his own
shoulder>....
William Tanksley
>howdie
>i have to confess i am a complete rougelike newbie, so can you
>please tell me which angband variant you consider to be the best.
For a newbie, I'd have to recommend Angband itself. Anyone else should
get ZAngband, OAngband, and PernAngband as well, and then decide to get
rid of one of the three.
If you like zaniness and constant change, throw away OAngband; it's very
organised and straightforward (in fact, I consider it almost a suitable
replacement for Angband itself).
If you like games that keep a stable focus across versions, throw away
ZAngband; it's developed by a committee, and you never know whether any
given feature is going to die or be elevated to a core part of play in the
next version (which in turn means that it's always a new game, always
something more to discover).
If you like your games to be stable and low on bugs, throw away
PernAngband. It's not killer buggy, but it is in very rapid development,
and a lot of the newest features work dangerously, and you'll always find
that there are certain thing you Just Don't Do. At the same time, this is
the most focussed of the cutting-edge Angbands, and so if you enjoy a
class or race in the current version you'll probably also like it in the
next one (unless you liked it because of some cheezy bug).
My favorites, as you can probably tell, are OAngband and PernAngband.
ZAngband is a truly great game, though, and still leads in popularity in
spite of being the oldest living variant.
There are many other good variants; I could mention GWAngband, which
cleverly rebalances the basic classes without the game changes OAngband
makes, or CthAngband, which totally changes the nature of the game, adding
some innovative ways of doing magic, or CatHAngband, which is
experimenting with some new ways of balancing races, one of which (the
Wood Elf) is proving to be a smash hit. In fact, I just did mention those.
>thx
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
DarkGod
>
> DarkGod schrieb:
>
> > > > 1. PernAngband - Much to discover and try out, but the graphics-support
> > > > is broken (missing titles)
> > Lol yeah you should :)
>
> Done and sent to you. Now THAT is fast service <taps his own
> shoulder>....
David Thornley
>
>> howdie
>> i have to confess i am a complete rougelike newbie, so can you
>> please tell me which angband variant you consider to be the best.
>
you'll be going with a relatively simple game, with fewer gotchas, and
that there will be more support available.
>Variants I don't like:
>
>CthAngband - It could be a real cool variant, but I don't like the
>skill system. "Learning by doing", that's the way a skill system should
>work and not "Learning by doing it one special levels" also it's just
>plain stupid that you have to let monsters hurt you, if you want to
>improve your HPs. If you're a newbie, don't try this one!
>
This is a flagrant plea for suggestions. I take it you don't like the
skill <= 3*level/2 system, and I would be happy to entertain suggestions
as to what to replace it with. The basic requirement is that it should
be somewhere between exceedingly tedious and impossible to gain great
skill without exposure to danger. The current system enforces this
(as "impossible") by refusing to allow skill checks to be done unless
the level is deep enough. Possibly it should be changed to allow
skill checks at a much lesser frequency if the skill is higher than
the level indicates.
As far as HP improvement goes, yes, this is not a completely satisfactory
way, since becoming tougher by taking damage does not quite correspond
to becoming a better sorcerer by casting Identify more often. This
becomes a particular problem when you can take damage under controlled
conditions, such as in a room with a mold, or by using racial powers.
Right now, I don't have a better idea.
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
Eytan Zweig
> As far as HP improvement goes, yes, this is not a completely
satisfactory
> way, since becoming tougher by taking damage does not quite correspond
> to becoming a better sorcerer by casting Identify more often. This
> becomes a particular problem when you can take damage under controlled
> conditions, such as in a room with a mold, or by using racial powers.
> Right now, I don't have a better idea.
Well, I'm not familiar with cth but one general skill-based way to do
it would be to base your HP on other fighting skills - ie, as each of
them improves, the HP rises. Make the amount raised depend on the
amount of current HP rather than on the level of the fighting skill and
you won't have a problem if people raise too many skills.
If you don't like this, you can try modifying the current system so
that HP will only be raised by taking over 30% (for instance) of your
current HP in one blow - and therefore you won't be able to control the
situation for long; of course, this could be way too dangerous.
Eytan
fra...@my-deja.com
- You can train your skills on every level, even in town.
- skill check frequency = skill level * 5
- chance of skill increase = 100 - skill level
examples:
1. if you want to increase a skill from 1 to 2 every 5 uses (1 * 5)
you would get a skill check and the chance of increasing the
skill would be 99% (100 - 1)
2. if you want to increase a skill from 35 to 36 every 175 (35 * 5)
uses you would get a skill check and the chance of increasing
the skill would be 65% (100 - 35)
3. if you want to increase a skill from 80 to 81 every 400 (80 * 5)
uses you would get a
skill check and the chance of increasing the skill would be 20%
(100 - 80)
You see that the early skill levels (the basics) are quite easy to
gain, but the high
levels are close to impossible to reach without help, and I think
that's realistic.
For example you NEED the teaching of grandmasters to become a master of
material arts,
just kicking thousands of fools in their faces wouldn't bring you that
black belt.
So how to implent this in Angband? I think of a guild system. This
guilds would have
the masters you need to reach higher skill levels, and if you've shown
yourself
worthly (skill level, completed guild quests) they would teach you the
higher mystics
of your art.
Which kind of teaching the guilds would offer would depand on your
skill level, 'cause
a master would train an adept but a grandmaster wouldn't waste his time
with such a
newbie. The prices and the difficult level of the quests would increse
with the
level of the training. Reaching a really high skill level would force
you do go
deep into the dungeon 'cause your quest would be to kill some of the
real baddies
who don't show up at 100'.
An example: if your skill level is >= 20 but <30 then the guild would
offer you
a training to level 30 if you complete a quest for them, or pay them or
both.
"Kill a red dragon to prove yourself worthly and when come back and we
will teach
you for just 10.000 Gold" ;-)
So that was my suggestion for a skill system.
By the way classes doesn't make sense in a skill-based game so give the
player a fixed
number of skill points at the beginning of the game so he can spend
them the way he
like.
Skylar Thompson
>howdie
>i have to confess i am a complete rougelike newbie, so can you
>please tell me which angband variant you consider to be the best.
>
Start out with vanilla Angband 2.9.1. After that, I would head to ZAngband and,
thence, to PernAngband. After accomplishing this, you should be thoroughly
desensitised weirdness and oddities that you will be able to handle any
variant. :)
--Skylar Thompson (sky...@attglobal.net)
"All that is gold does not glitter, / not all those that wander are lost;
All that is old does not wither, / and bright may be fire in the frost.
The fire that was low may be woken; / and sharp in the sheath is the sting;
Forged may be blade that was broken; / the crownless again may be king."
--Verification of Aragorn, son of Arathorn, heir to the throne of Isildur, J.R.R. Tolkien
Julian Lighton
>>i have to confess i am a complete rougelike newbie, so can you
>>please tell me which angband variant you consider to be the best.
>
>get ZAngband, OAngband, and PernAngband as well, and then decide to get
>rid of one of the three.
I think Oangband should be considered by newbies, too. It doesn't
have the sort of problems for new players that Z or Pern can, it's
fairly stable, and new players won't have to relearn how things are
done like Angband players do.
--
Julian Lighton jl...@fragment.com
"He got feet down below his knee
Hold you in his armchair you can feel his disease"
-- The Beatles
heidi...@my-deja.com
If you have a life, forget any angband games. All of them lead to a
state of total isolation from the real world.
Now if I can just get my half troll priest past 300ft I'd be happy (for
a moment)
rgds heidiho
[PS.....one piece of advice....DONT CHEAT......and dont make a backup
save file.......do this and you will never realise why this type of
game has lasted so long and why they have such a massive following. :)
heidi...@my-deja.com
by "relearning how things are done"...........from another pain in the
butt newbie:)
heidoho
Steve Jackson jacko...@nextcentury.com.au
"were just two lost souls looking in a fish bowl"
---Pink Floyd
William Tanksley
>My suggestion for a "realistic" and simple skill system
>- You can train your skills on every level, even in town.
>- skill check frequency = skill level * 5
>- chance of skill increase = 100 - skill level
I like this kind of system, because it makes the probability of learning
something proportional to the "actual" difficulty of the task. I see that
this system makes it *very* hard to learn high levels; that's good, given
your goals stated below, but you also have to consider the low levels.
People will find it effective (but boring) work out skills up to a
reasonable level before joining any guilds.
Effective but boring practices are not things we want to see in games :-),
especially when they can be macroed.
>You see that the early skill levels (the basics) are quite easy to gain,
>but the high levels are close to impossible to reach without help, and I
>think that's realistic. For example you NEED the teaching of grandmasters
>to become a master of material arts, just kicking thousands of fools in
>their faces wouldn't bring you that black belt.
I feel that Ed Gruberman was not entirely wrong.
>So how to implent this in Angband? I think of a guild system. This guilds
>would have the masters you need to reach higher skill levels, and if
>you've shown yourself worthly (skill level, completed guild quests) they
>would teach you the higher mystics of your art.
Yes, I like this. It reminds me of Omega (q.v.), oddly enough.
>So that was my suggestion for a skill system.
I really like it.
>By the way classes doesn't make sense in a skill-based game so give the
>player a fixed number of skill points at the beginning of the game so he
>can spend them the way he like.
Or you can do as Omega does, and have the guilds mostly present in a
single town. A new character can sign up for as many guilds as he wants
to, with two restrictions:
1. XP is divided among all your guilds, so two guilds advance at half the
speed of one.
2. Some of the guilds don't like the other guilds (the Order of Paladins
doesn't care for the bloodiness of the arena or mercenary's guild, and the
two return the favor).
Of course, you haven't mentioned any XP system, but I think it's fairly
obvious how to build one: whenever the player gains XP, it's divided up
among all of the XP-needing guilds currently active.
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Timo Pietilä
heidi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I have just started Ongband. Please explain what you meant
> by "relearning how things are done"...........from another pain in the
> butt newbie:)
> heidoho
The damage system is very different to angband. Weapon base damage dice
is much more important in O than in V. Also skill is much more important
in O than in V. And so on.
Timo Pietilä
--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCM d s+:+ a C++$ UL+++ P> L+ E W+ N++ o+ K- W---(+++) O- M+ V- PS
PE Y+ PGP- t+ 5++ X? R+ tv++ b+++ DI+++ D+++ G e+++ h*(+) r- y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
fra...@my-deja.com
>I see that this system makes it *very* hard to learn high levels;
that's good, given your
>goals stated below, but you also have to consider the low levels.
You're right, my system can be abused in the low levels but right now I
don't
have any idea how to prevent this. But I don't think this is a real
problem, 'cause
you have the freedom to use the tactic or not. I think, if your want to
do some boring
training before diving into the real action, do it!
If you don't use macros it's nearly impossible to raise your skills to
any serious
level without the guilds.
for example: to raise the [forgot the name] skill from 20 to 21 you
would need to
cast magic missle over 100 times at a wall! Only masocists would use
such a tactic and
using macros here would be the same as entering a cheat code which can
be done
in nearly every game (to spoil the fun).
But if you think it's a really bad problem, create your own system.
I would like to see it! ;-)
>Or you can do as Omega does, and have the guilds mostly present in a
single town.
>A new character can sign up for as many guilds as he wants to, with
two restrictions:
>1. XP is divided among all your guilds, so two guilds advance at half
the speed of one.
>2. Some of the guilds don't like the other guilds (the Order of
Paladins doesn't care for the bloodiness of the arena or mercenary's
guild, and the two return the favor).
>Of course, you haven't mentioned any XP system,
>but I think it's fairly obvious how to build one:
>whenever the player gains XP,
>it's divided up among all of the XP-needing guilds currently active.
Right, I haven't mentioned any XP system 'cause my system doesn't use
one to deal with
the guilds stuff. What a guild is willing to teach you depands on your
skill level,
your money, and if you completed the quests they had given to you.
Remember my example:
if your skill level is >= 20 but <30 then the guild would offer you
a training to level 30 if you complete a quest for them, or pay them or
both.
"Kill a red dragon to prove yourself worthly and when come back and we
will teach
you for just 10.000 Gold"
But I like the ideas of real guild memberships and guilds who don't
like each other,
'cause someone shouldn't be in the paladins and the necromancers guild
at the same time,
right?
Another problem of my skill system is the possibility of creating half-
god characters
who are perfect at everything - casting magic, picking looks and
bashing heads.
But I don't like spending hours and days of my free time on designing a
real skill system
right now (It's not my variant right?). It was just meant as a small
suggestion for the
maintainer.
Skylar Thompson
>I am also a newbie. My advice is to forget the lot!
>If you have a life, forget any angband games. All of them lead to a
>state of total isolation from the real world.
You mistake yourself: That is the fun part of Angband!
David Thornley
Eytan Zweig <eyt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Well, I'm not familiar with cth but one general skill-based way to do
>it would be to base your HP on other fighting skills - ie, as each of
>them improves, the HP rises. Make the amount raised depend on the
>amount of current HP rather than on the level of the fighting skill and
>you won't have a problem if people raise too many skills.
>
check, and a 100-Y% chance of raising a skill that's at Y%. Most
skills can be used reasonably to good effect, but it's a bit
difficult to argue that toughness comes from taking damage.
Toughness is a skill, BTW, that determines HP (in combination
with CON and character race, of course).
Since toughness is connected with combat, perhaps giving skill
checks for weapons hits would be the way to go. I don't think
there's a comparable problem with hitting in melee, since such hits
tend to make the monster go away eventually, so you have to find
a new critter to whack at.
The problem is that this leaves nonfighters rather out in the cold.
Requiring a spellcaster to go out and hand-to-hand monsters in order
to gain HP seems a bit odd. (BTW, there are no classes as such in
Cthangband, so I can't make rules different for different classes.)
>If you don't like this, you can try modifying the current system so
>that HP will only be raised by taking over 30% (for instance) of your
>current HP in one blow - and therefore you won't be able to control the
>situation for long; of course, this could be way too dangerous.
>
Thing is, people have to be able to raise HP without dying. That
seems to dangerous to me.
Christopher Jeris
> Toughness is a skill, BTW, that determines HP (in combination
> with CON and character race, of course).
Maybe part of the problem is that - although of course special attacks
exist, and cause special conditions - at the root, all attack types are
mapped onto the same damage type.
Here is a straw comparison (I know Cth doesn't have character classes).
Consider 30 hp of damage done by a troll with a greataxe, or by an
evil necromancer's will-draining negative energy. Consider two
characters, fitting roughly the "warrior" and "wizard" archetypes, and
suppose that each character takes the full brunt of each attack --
the warrior has a better chance, a priori, to avoid, deflect or reduce
the troll's blow, and the wizard has a better chance a priori to avoid
or resist the necromancer's attack, but suppose that these checks have
been failed already. I contend that the warrior should also be less
incapacitated and recover faster from the troll's blow, and the wizard
from the necromancer's spell.
Therefore, perhaps "toughness" is really "toughness against a given
attack form", which is measured best by one's experience with that
attack form, that is, the relevant skill. Toughness versus blows is
measured by hand-to-hand combat skill in addition to constitution;
versus magic, by the magic skill in addition to wisdom (or whatever).
But this line of argument also leads to the abandonment of hit points
which increase as one progresses along any given axis. Instead you,
the character, at full health are the standard of measurement for any
attack, and while a kobold's backstab might have hit you for 25% of
physical health when you started, now it may only be able to sting
you for 2% at most.
Chris Jeris
Haxson
>
>Steve Jackson jacko...@nextcentury.com.au
>"were just two lost souls looking in a fish bowl"
>---Pink Floyd
No, no, no!
"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl"
(Sorry, but I'm a bit sensitive when it comes to Pink Floyd.)
/Haxson
--
What, me worry?
William Tanksley
>>I see that this system makes it *very* hard to learn high levels; that's
>>good, given your goals stated below, but you also have to consider the low
>>levels.
>You're right, my system can be abused in the low levels but right now I
>don't have any idea how to prevent this.
I've been thinking for a while, and I'm starting to conclude that your
system isn't a good idea for CthAngband. Guilds should be good places for
gaining skills, not required places for increasing them -- although skills
ought to be hard enough to increase that guild assistance is always
appreciated.
>>Or you can do as Omega does, and have the guilds mostly present in a
>>single town.
>>A new character can sign up for as many guilds as he wants to, with
>>two restrictions:
>>1. XP is divided among all your guilds, so two guilds advance at half
>>the speed of one.
>>2. Some of the guilds don't like the other guilds (the Order of
>>Paladins doesn't care for the bloodiness of the arena or mercenary's
>>guild, and the two return the favor).
>>Of course, you haven't mentioned any XP system,
>>but I think it's fairly obvious how to build one:
>>whenever the player gains XP,
>>it's divided up among all of the XP-needing guilds currently active.
>Right, I haven't mentioned any XP system 'cause my system doesn't use one
>to deal with the guilds stuff. What a guild is willing to teach you
>depands on your skill level, your money, and if you completed the quests
>they had given to you. Remember my example: if your skill level is >= 20
>but <30 then the guild would offer you a training to level 30 if you
>complete a quest for them, or pay them or both. "Kill a red dragon to
>prove yourself worthly and when come back and we will teach you for just
>10.000 Gold"
I would highly recommend an XP system as well. It adds more variety to
the goals, gives a good reason to not belong to too many guilds, and can
be easily justified. After all, while it makes some sense for some guilds
to just have an arbitrary test (like "Kill a Red Dragon") to weed out the
general public, other guilds are going to be more interested in whether
you have something interesting to tell them, something that you picked up
on your own.
>But I like the ideas of real guild memberships and guilds who don't like
>each other, 'cause someone shouldn't be in the paladins and the
>necromancers guild at the same time, right?
Actually, in Omega at least, there are always WAYS of bending the rules.
I'm thinking of making a guild which rewards finding such loopholes.
10 points to the first person (Omega-Dev team members aren't people^Win
this contest) who can tell me a way to belong to both the arena and the
Order of Paladins in Omega.
I think your system is essentially good, but needs to be scaled back a lot
-- make the skill checks a lot more often, and base the frequency of the
checks on INT plus the stat which is supposed to support the skill. This
way high levels will be hard to attain, much harder than low ones, but
will still be possible to manually get.
Also, tie the frequency of the skill increase checks to the danger of the
area -- the depth of the dungeon, the level of the visible monsters, the
level of the highest-level nerby monsters, and so on.
>Frank
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Greg Wooledge
>heidi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> I have just started Ongband. Please explain what you meant
>> by "relearning how things are done"...........from another pain in the
>> butt newbie:)
>The damage system is very different to angband. Weapon base damage dice
>is much more important in O than in V. Also skill is much more important
>in O than in V. And so on.
The "and so on" hides some real quirks in Angband. There are a lot
of gameplay features of Angband that are counter-intuitive at first,
but after having played for several years you get used to them. If you
try to play OAngband when you're used to Angband's quirks, you'll find
that you have a lot of bad habits to unlearn.
(The biggest, most obvious one: in Angband, warriors start with a sword.
The optimal game-play strategy, assuming you have high STR and DEX, is
to sell the sword and buy a whip. In OAngband, the sword is a better
weapon and you should keep it.)
--
*** Please note new address. --> | Greg Wooledge
| gr...@wooledge.org
"Truth belongs to everybody." | http://wooledge.org/~greg/
Red Hot Chili Peppers | old page: http://www.kellnet.com/wooledge/
Greg Wooledge
>As far as HP improvement goes, yes, this is not a completely satisfactory
>way, since becoming tougher by taking damage does not quite correspond
>to becoming a better sorcerer by casting Identify more often. This
>becomes a particular problem when you can take damage under controlled
>conditions, such as in a room with a mold, or by using racial powers.
>Right now, I don't have a better idea.
I don't have a full answer either, but one thing is clear to me:
** You should NEVER increase toughness for use of racial skills. **
Another suggestion that occurs to me is that toughness should have a
(small?) chance of increasing whenever you kill a monster physically
(i.e., with a melee weapon). This would cut down on the tedium a great
deal, IMHO -- a warrior should be killing things, not acting as a punching
bag. You might (or might not, I'm not sure yet) want to allow a much
smaller chance of toughness increases when shooting monsters with a bow;
but I would *not* give toughness increases for killing them with magic.
Greg Wooledge
>Remember my example:
>if your skill level is >= 20 but <30 then the guild would offer you
>a training to level 30 if you complete a quest for them, or pay them or
>both.
>"Kill a red dragon to prove yourself worthly and when come back and we
>will teach
>you for just 10.000 Gold"
The breakpoint of 30 is unnatural. It means that a character is penalized
is he accepts the quest reward at a skill higher than 20. This in turn
leads to scumming (when your skill approaches 10*n, practice in town
until it is equal to 10*n, then get the quest and the reward ASAP).
It would seem more natural for the quests to be available to anyone who
meets minimum survival criteria (don't give AMHD quests to 1st level
characters), and to give a relatively static reward. The reward could
be either a fixed number of skill points (say, +5 toughness for bringing
back the head of Lagduf the Snaga); or, to prevent abuse, they could
give a fixed number of skill "uses" (1000 skill uses at skill level 20
means a lot more points gained than 1000 skill uses at skill level 40).
However, I'd add one hack to that: make sure the character gains at
least 1 skill point so they get *something* for the quest....
If you go with the fixed number of skill uses, then characters will
probably try to tackle the quests earlier; if you go with a fixed number
of skill points, they'll tackle the quests later.
If you retain your original idea, characters will tackle quests when
they reach the magical 10*n breakpoints.
Mathew
> Another suggestion that occurs to me is that toughness should have a
> (small?) chance of increasing whenever you kill a monster physically
> (i.e., with a melee weapon). This would cut down on the tedium a great
> deal, IMHO -- a warrior should be killing things, not acting as a punching
> bag.
I agree with this. The more your character hacks and slasshes hiw way
through the horde, the tougher he (or she or it!) will get...
> You might (or might not, I'm not sure yet) want to allow a much
> smaller chance of toughness increases when shooting monsters with a bow;
I would see no resson why it shouldn't be the same. You could think of
toughness as having a "coolness under fire" aspect.
> but I would *not* give toughness increases for killing them with magic.
No - I have to disagree here. Magic user type characters specialise in the
use of magic, hence shouldn't really try to go HTH with the beasties in the
dungeon. If your going to raise the toughness of a character based on how
much damage they dish out you have to include magic too!
Perhaps we shouldn't see tougness as a purely physical attribute. Not that
I know how else to see it though. :(
C'ya,
Mathew B.
heidi...@my-deja.com
au...@mad.scientist.com (Haxson) wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 05:06:18 GMT, heidi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >"were just two lost souls looking in a fish bowl"
> >---Pink Floyd
>
>
> "We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl"
>
> (Sorry, but I'm a bit sensitive when it comes to Pink Floyd.)
>
> /Haxson
>
> --
> What, me worry?
> Just checking if anyone did read the end tags :)
Steve
"matter of fact its all doubt"
Kieron Dunbar
>I am also a newbie. My advice is to forget the lot!
>If you have a life, forget any angband games. All of them lead to a
>state of total isolation from the real world.
Is that the one where 3/2 doesn't equal 1? I don't even want to think about
that...
kwaheri, Kieron (reverse username to reply)
Kieron Dunbar
> attack form, that is, the relevant skill. Toughness versus blows is
> measured by hand-to-hand combat skill in addition to constitution;
> versus magic, by the magic skill in addition to wisdom (or whatever).
> But this line of argument also leads to the abandonment of hit points
> which increase as one progresses along any given axis. Instead you,
That's not a problem as long as the game can represent as much fine
gradation as the present system and you make it clear to the player what's
going on.
I can't help feeling, however, that this might be easier to implement in a
version with character classes (whether a 3.x version of Cthangband or
another variant). With the system of gaining toughness by being hit, the
problem would be that everyone will be hit by roughly the same sorts of
attack, giving the various different toughnesses at roughly the same rate
anyway. If it was a function of class, constitution and level, you could
make the relative strengths and weaknesses up as you go along and see if it
leaves you with an enjoyable game at some point.
> the character, at full health are the standard of measurement for any
> attack, and while a kobold's backstab might have hit you for 25% of
> physical health when you started, now it may only be able to sting
> you for 2% at most.
As long as the player knows how much the kobold threat has receded, this
shouldn't be a problem at all.
Greg Wooledge
>Once upon a time, heidi...@my-deja.com wrote thus:
>>I am also a newbie. My advice is to forget the lot!
>>If you have a life, forget any angband games. All of them lead to a
>>state of total isolation from the real world.
>
>Is that the one where 3/2 doesn't equal 1? I don't even want to think about
>that...
3/2 equals 1 in the real world, if you use the appropriate definition
of the / operator.
(On the other hand, 3.0/2.0 had better not be 1. ;-) )
R Dan Henry
thor...@visi.com (David Thornley) transmitted thus:
> Most
>skills can be used reasonably to good effect, but it's a bit
>difficult to argue that toughness comes from taking damage.
Actually, in CthAngband, it's not too hard, because it is set in the
Dreamlands. Given the setting, it's not too much of a stretch to think
that your toughness is a mainly psychological trait and that which
does not kill you does indeed make you stronger. Every time you get
hit sufficiently hard, but don't die, you lose a little of your sense
of mortality. The more you *believe* you can take what the monsters
have to dish out, the more you *can* take it.
--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Trained Philosopher: Will Think For Food
Kieron Dunbar
> Kieron Dunbar (nor...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >Once upon a time, heidi...@my-deja.com wrote thus:
>>>I am also a newbie. My advice is to forget the lot!
>>>If you have a life, forget any angband games. All of them lead to a
>>>state of total isolation from the real world.
>>Is that the one where 3/2 doesn't equal 1? I don't even want to think
about
>>that...
> 3/2 equals 1 in the real world, if you use the appropriate definition
> of the / operator.
Real number, real world, something like that? Perhaps I should just remember
that maths jokes just aren't worth it...
(On the other hand, 3.0/2.0 had better not be 1. ;-) )
It can if you use are using the appropriate definition of the / operator,
surely? Unless 2 and 2.0 aren't really numbers, of course.
Megan
Tanksley) wrote:
>On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 06:18:28 +0200, element wrote:
>>i have to confess i am a complete rougelike newbie, so can you
>>please tell me which angband variant you consider to be the best.
>There are many other good variants; I could mention GWAngband, which
>cleverly rebalances the basic classes without the game changes OAngband
>makes, or CthAngband, which totally changes the nature of the game, adding
>some innovative ways of doing magic, or CatHAngband, which is
>experimenting with some new ways of balancing races, one of which (the
>Wood Elf) is proving to be a smash hit. In fact, I just did mention those.
Does anyone out there play SBFband? I love David & Leigh Eddings' books, so when
I saw the description in the variants FAQ, I downloaded it. I have to admit I've
not done much with it since then, but when I went through char generation all I
saw was a couple of different classes, and the magic system /seemed/ to be the
same. Is it worth it once you really get into gameplay itself???
- Megan
--
mo...@NOTearthlink.net
DarkGod
:(
--
-----------------------+----------------------------------------------
DarkGod comes from | Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards
the hells for YOU ! :) | because they are subtle and quick to anger.
-----------------------+----------------------------------------------
Pe W Olorin YSo L:50 DL:696 A+++ R+++ Sp++ w:Mage Staff of Mana(240%)
Pe*/M(Km)(Cr)(NH) D H- D c++ f- PV s- TT- d++ P++ M+ C- S++ I+++ So++
B/-
ac- GHB- SQ+ RQ V+++ F:Mage playing Mage-like(see Pernangband Sorcerors)
DarkGod
>
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:06:31 GMT, wtan...@dolphin.openprojects.net (William
> Tanksley) wrote:
> >On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 06:18:28 +0200, element wrote:
> >>i have to confess i am a complete rougelike newbie, so can you
> >>please tell me which angband variant you consider to be the best.
> >There are many other good variants; I could mention GWAngband, which
> >cleverly rebalances the basic classes without the game changes OAngband
> >makes, or CthAngband, which totally changes the nature of the game, adding
> >some innovative ways of doing magic, or CatHAngband, which is
> >experimenting with some new ways of balancing races, one of which (the
> >Wood Elf) is proving to be a smash hit. In fact, I just did mention those.
> Does anyone out there play SBFband? I love David & Leigh Eddings' books, so when
> I saw the description in the variants FAQ, I downloaded it. I have to admit I've
> not done much with it since then, but when I went through char generation all I
> saw was a couple of different classes, and the magic system /seemed/ to be the
> same. Is it worth it once you really get into gameplay itself???
I knew the maintainer and he had great ideas but he somehow vanished ..
:(
Gwidon S. Naskrent
>not done much with it since then, but when I went through char generation all I
>saw was a couple of different classes, and the magic system /seemed/ to be the
>same. Is it worth it once you really get into gameplay itself???
It's got some Eddings uniques, but they're mostly low-level.
GSN
Steve
so when
> > I saw the description in the variants FAQ, I downloaded it. I have to
admit I've
generation all I
> > saw was a couple of different classes, and the magic system /seemed/ to
be the
> > same. Is it worth it once you really get into gameplay itself???
> :(
> And I dont remember too much changes to gameplay :(
Well, actually, I finally got a job and that has been keeping me busy. That
and trying to have something resembling a social life.
Magic system is the same for now. I don't have any current plans for
changing it, but that could change. I'm not even through adding all the
stuff I want to into SBFband. I hope that some will find the changes
interesting. When will I get another version out? Good question. Probably
not until next year (really big project at work right now). It is my
intention to get another version out!
Megan
Glad to know you're still out there!
I was mulling last night on assorted ideas for an Eddings-type *band -- like,
say, an ability for the Sorceror class would be (once you're at a sufficiently
high CL) to polymorph at will into an animal...
- Megan
--
mo...@NOTearthlink.net
Greg Wooledge
>I was mulling last night on assorted ideas for an Eddings-type *band -- like,
>say, an ability for the Sorceror class would be (once you're at a sufficiently
>high CL) to polymorph at will into an animal...
Druids in Oangband can use a variety of shape-shifting spells.
(Necromancy has a couple, too.)
DarkGod
>
> Megan (mo...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>
> >I was mulling last night on assorted ideas for an Eddings-type *band -- like,
> >say, an ability for the Sorceror class would be (once you're at a sufficiently
> >high CL) to polymorph at will into an animal...
>
> Druids in Oangband can use a variety of shape-shifting spells.
> (Necromancy has a couple, too.)
realms
of PernAngband also allow polymorphing.
WHat I would LOVE to see(thioght I fear it's hardly codable) is a real
edding like magic system .. you think, you speak and pouf it works
Megan
>Greg Wooledge a écrit:
>> Megan (mo...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>> >I was mulling last night on assorted ideas for an Eddings-type *band -- like,
>> >say, an ability for the Sorceror class would be (once you're at a sufficiently
>> >high CL) to polymorph at will into an animal...
>>
>> Druids in Oangband can use a variety of shape-shifting spells.
>> (Necromancy has a couple, too.)
>And Mimics in PernAngband & KaMband, and Possessors, and some magic
>realms of PernAngband also allow polymorphing.
>
>WHat I would LOVE to see(thioght I fear it's hardly codable) is a real
>edding like magic system .. you think, you speak and pouf it works
Me too. But, as you say.... I doubt it's codable.
Sorcery in that realm appears to be the product of a number of factors:
1) having the talent in great extent (somewhere in one of the books it's
mentioned that everyone has it to greater or lesser degree, but that few are
able to express it, and those that come across it on their own are prone to
self-demolition)
2) intelligence
3) wisdom... at least in longrange planning (e.g. Belgarath beating poor Garion
about the ears verbally for playing with the weather on that battlefield)
4) lots of booklearning doesn't hurt (though Garion seems to do fine without it,
initially, he also has the immense advantage of having the voice of the Prophecy
in his head.)
- Megan
--
mo...@NOTearthlink.net
Barry C.
friendly terms with a god.
Megan <mo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39f9d2ed...@news.earthlink.net...
Megan
>Of course Belgarath had the advantage of being 3000 years old and on very
>friendly terms with a god.
Yes, but remember... oh, heck, what's his name. The sorcerer they found at the
University (of Melcene???)... he wasn't attached to any God.
I had thought about commenting on that -- since being a Disciple /is/ a huge
help of course ;-)
One little discrepancy I noted: they talked about how only Disciples could work
sorcery outside the realm belonging to their own particular God. But how does
that apply to Mr. Clubfoot?
- Megan
--
mo...@NOTearthlink.net
Barry C.
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2000 23:26:20 +0100, "Barry C." <bp...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >Of course Belgarath had the advantage of being 3000 years old and on very
> >friendly terms with a god.
>
> Yes, but remember... oh, heck, what's his name. The sorcerer they found at
the
> University (of Melcene???)... he wasn't attached to any God.
>
> I had thought about commenting on that -- since being a Disciple /is/ a
huge
> help of course ;-)
>
> One little discrepancy I noted: they talked about how only Disciples could
work
> sorcery outside the realm belonging to their own particular God. But how
does
> that apply to Mr. Clubfoot?
Gods are not neccesary for sorcery, it is shear strength of will and the
knoweledge to apply it. Since the gods created the world after they willed
themselves into being, they have nearly infinite power, and so can help if
an individules power is insufficient for the task at hand, eg Polgara
banishing the demon Chabat (sp?) had raised. Disciples have more power than
sorcerors not affliated with gods because they have been studing for
thousands of years and can learn form the gods. Also the gods only picked
those with the most powerful will in the first place.
MartinRJCarpenter
mo...@earthlink.net (Megan) wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2000 23:26:20 +0100, "Barry C." <bp...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
(This is getting rather off topic I know but the Qn was asked :))
> > Of course Belgarath had the advantage of being 3000 years old and on very
> > friendly terms with a god.
>
> Yes, but remember... oh, heck, what's his name. The sorcerer they found at
> the University (of Melcene???)... he wasn't attached to any God.
>
Senji. Could be viewed as possibly retroactively attached to Eriond (Wierd
but this kind of thing *does* occur in the books) or maybe just the prophecy
?!
> I had thought about commenting on that -- since being a Disciple /is/ a
> huge help of course ;-)
>
> One little discrepancy I noted: they talked about how only Disciples could
> work sorcery outside the realm belonging to their own particular God. But
> how does that apply to Mr. Clubfoot?
>
There's worse discrepancies than this around :) (Though that entire thing is
very mixed up. Most likely some restriction only on Grolims possibly imposed
by Torak himself or as some kind of side effect of how they get power.
Otherwise you couldn't really have indpendent sorcerors at all.) (See the
alt.fan.eddings FAQ if really interested which has got brave efforts to
explain this and many other related things....)
I'm pretty sure that AFE has decided in the past that the only magic system
with a chance of working in any kind of roleplay would be the Elenium/Tamuli
one. (The will&the word is really way too powerful if used sensibly which it
would be in a RPG.... Hence the not really very well justified reasons for
hardly ever using it in the books. Which do keep them very readable :))
--
MartinCarpenter
Joseph William Dixon
> > One little discrepancy I noted: they talked about how only Disciples
> > could work sorcery outside the realm belonging to their own particular
> > God. But how does that apply to Mr. Clubfoot?
>
> There's worse discrepancies than this around :)
Not really a discrepency.
1) This only applies to priests - and the Disciples are priests, after
all.
2) That restriction mentioned came from "Belgarath the Sorcerer".
Considering that lying comes as naturally as breathing to him, nothing he
said in his 'autobiography' can be taken at face value. :)
--
"People have believed for hundreds of years that newts in a well mean that
the water's fresh and drinkable, and _in all that time_ never asked them-
selves whether the newts get out to go to the lavatory." [Terry Pratchett]
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~aa343/index.html