Adom vs. Angband vs. Nethack
Rich
I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
Thanks.....Rich
Blade
It's somewhat simpler, and you can get the hang of it pretty quick. Once
you believe yourself to be quite good at Nethack, come and join the
wonderful world of ADOM. ADOM has most of the same basic principals of
Nethack (dungeon crawls, creature bashing, altars, shops). The
difference, compared to ADOM, Nethack is basically an action style game.
Run around, kill stuff, win the game (I know it's not that simple). ADOM
has many fine points to it. Your character is chosen by race and class,
giving you a ton of possibilities. Each one requiring a different
strategy. You now have skills. These let you many things that Nethack
took for granted (like reading). The weapon skills are somewhat better,
you have to score a certain number of hits to raise your skill, and
different combat tactics you can choose will affect how many hits you
get. There are a few towns to visit, and several dungeons, whereas
Nethack was all in one dungeon (more or less). Trust me, you have to
play ADOM for quite some time before you can consider yourself "skilled"
at it. While you can become quite good at Nethack in no time.
As for Angband... eh. It's sort of a median between Nethack's
hack-n-slash style, and ADOM's careful strategizing. I find Angband to
be... lacking. It's not quite as fun as Nethack, where you can just jump
in and play for a while. Or as in depth as ADOM, where I personally
become quite attached to my characters after a while.
--
Blade
bl...@ican.net
Blade's Armory
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/9111
Stormchaser
Well the best game to start out on is nethack(haven't heard of Angband). I
know for a fact that nethack(and all its var's are free) so you could get
both and try it and find out. Nethack it self has both easy and difficult
classes and has lasting fun.
On the other hand I would suggest staying away from the varients and the
spoilers till after you have logged a couple hours on nethack vanilla.
Rich <rich...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<3441094...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
>
> Thanks.....Rich
>
Peng Zhou
Rich <rich...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<3441094...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
>
> Thanks.....Rich
>
Well, since you asked, I might as well give you this little chart to help
you decide(though you can save the trouble and play'em all together!)
Topic ADOM Angband Nethack
Easy No No No
Easy-play Yes Yes Medium
Pets Yes!!! No Yes
Multi-Dungeon Yes!!! No Medium
Replayable Yes!!! Yes Medium
Tricks Medium No Yes
Beginner? No Yes Medium
Complex Yes!!! Medium Yes
Serious Medium Yes No
Humor Medium No Yes!!!
Class Yes Yes Medium
Race Yes!!! Yes No
Variants No Yes!!! Yes
Multi-player No Yes No
Long Play No Yes(1 month for me) No
Tolkienize Medium Yes Medium
Compare yous self, judge the games not by how many yes's is in each of
them, but which of the topics that you like has yes's.
--
Peng Zhou
Jeffrey L Wiles
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Rich wrote:
> I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
As a newbie, my biggest problem with Nethack was starvation. With Angband
this is not a problem. Also, Nethack has all that bizarre stuff like
kitchen sinks and statues and whatnot that are not in Angband. I find
Angband's inventory to be easier to manage, but that's probably a side
effect of playing Angband more. ADOM is a lot of fun. I like the idea of
being outside/multiple dungeons/multiple quests, but it complicates
things. In Angband, you know who the bad guy is, where he is, and exactly
how to get there and, to me at least, combat strategy is simpler in
Angband. So, I guess I would recommend Angband for a newbie, but highly
recommend that you try Nethack and ADOM once you get the feel of things.
Also, I started playing Alphaman this weekend and I find it to be
excellent, although I'm having a little trouble with the savefiles.
Replies and flames welcome. Those of you posting to roguelike.adom and
roguelike.nethack please email me directly as well as post since I don't
read those groups.
Later,
Jeff
D.J. Schreffler
On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Eric Nastav wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Jeffrey L Wiles wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Rich wrote:
> >
> > > I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> > > opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> > > to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
> >
> > As a newbie, my biggest problem with Nethack was starvation. With Angband
> > this is not a problem.
>
> I never played Nethack. However, some people have had trouble with
> starvation in ADOM as well.
Never played ADOM (is there a Mac version?). OTOH, never had starvation
problems in NetHack...food poisoning is a different matter altogether,
though.
> ADOM is a lot of fun. I like the idea of
> > being outside/multiple dungeons/multiple quests, but it complicates
> > things. In Angband, you know who the bad guy is, where he is, and exactly
> > how to get there and, to me at least, combat strategy is simpler in
> > Angband.
In NetHack, you know who the bad guy is, what you need to get, and there
is an oracle you can give heinous amounts of money to in order to learn
some things that would otherwise be spoilers or just in the Newsgroup.
> the skills system and the zodiac stuff at the beginning. I don't like
> that it's somewhat timed, though.
Timed in what way? NetHack I know has some timing (luck modified by the
phaze of the moon, as are lycanthropes, Friday the 13th being bad, nasty
things happening from midnight to 1 or 2am IIRC...I don't stay up that
late so...).
D.J. Schreffler, who still has fears of Black Dragons...the kind that
breathe Disintigration, not Acid....
Darin Takemoto
In article <3441094...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, rich...@ix.netcom.com
(Rich) wrote:
> I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
ADOM is fun, but not for newbies. Nethack is fun too, but has a lot
of little tricks and gimmicks. OTOH, if you just play a Barbarian
you can get the feel for it playing straightforward hack and slash.
Angband is probably best for a newbie (vanilla Angband, not one
of the many variants). The store level makes it easier to survive at
first, and if you play a High-Elf Ranger or a Dunadan darn-near-anything
you can survive a fair while. But just don't play a mage, they are
hard to keep alive at the beginning.
Darin Takemoto
take...@xtal0.harvard.edu
da' sweet talker
Blade wrote:
>
> Rich wrote:
> >
> > I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> > opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> > to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
> >
Between Nethack and Angband, I have to say I prefer Angband. No real
reasons, just personal preference. But, ahhh, what is ADOM? and where
can I get it? it sounds interesting, but I've never played it before.
D.J. Schreffler
On 13 Oct 1997, Peng Zhou wrote:
>
>
> Rich <rich...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <3441094...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> > opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> > to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
> >
> > Thanks.....Rich
> >
>
> Well, since you asked, I might as well give you this little chart to help
> you decide(though you can save the trouble and play'em all together!)
>
> Topic ADOM Angband Nethack
>
> Easy No No No
> Easy-play Yes Yes Medium
> Pets Yes!!! No Yes
> Multi-Dungeon Yes!!! No Medium
> Replayable Yes!!! Yes Medium
> Tricks Medium No Yes
> Beginner? No Yes Medium
I would have to say that NetHack is a little more beginner-firendly and
easier controls than Angband, but I started on NetHack (kill it, eat it,
take it's stuff).
> Complex Yes!!! Medium Yes
> Serious Medium Yes No
> Humor Medium No Yes!!!
"Time stands still while you and Barney the Dinsaur lie in each other's
arms. --More" (Message posted from a hallucinating character)
> Class Yes Yes Medium
> Race Yes!!! Yes No
Actually, you can be an Elf in NetHack...and that has some consequences
for eating/sacrificing corpses....
> Variants No Yes!!! Yes
> Multi-player No Yes No
> Long Play No Yes(1 month for me) No
What do you mean, Long Play? I have been playing NetHack since....1994.
Only started Angband a few months ago.
> Tolkienize Medium Yes Medium
D.J. Schreffler
Eric Nastav
On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Jeffrey L Wiles wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Rich wrote:
>
> > opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> > to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
>
> this is not a problem.
I never played Nethack. However, some people have had trouble with
starvation in ADOM as well.
ADOM is a lot of fun. I like the idea of
> being outside/multiple dungeons/multiple quests, but it complicates
> things. In Angband, you know who the bad guy is, where he is, and exactly
> how to get there and, to me at least, combat strategy is simpler in
> Angband.
Yes, Angband seems to be more linear. More predictable. In ADOM things
are more likely to be arbitrary and unpredictable. It's harder to have a
consistent and effective strategy in ADOM. I like the game, especially
the skills system and the zodiac stuff at the beginning. I don't like
that it's somewhat timed, though.
> Also, I started playing Alphaman this weekend and I find it to be
> excellent, although I'm having a little trouble with the savefiles.
>
Alphaman is pretty cool. I haven't gotten too far, yet. That game
definitely has some potential for futher development.
Eric
Ken Iwasa
In article <Pine.A32.3.93.971013...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu>,
Eric Nastav <ena...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Jeffrey L Wiles wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Rich wrote:
>>
>> > I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
>> > opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
>> > to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
>>
>> As a newbie, my biggest problem with Nethack was starvation. With Angband
>> this is not a problem.
ADOM is more similar to Nethack in a lot of ways than it is to Angband.
Angband's town is more reasonable than Terinyo, if you ignore the fact
that there is a dungeon entrance right in the middle of the town.
ADOM Altars are practically identical to those found in Nethack. I never
really figured out how the altars worked in ADOM until I played around
with Nethack. I was more familiar with Angband so altars made absolute no
sense at all (including the bit about shifting the altar's alignment).
Angband is pretty linear- which I find Nethack to be as well. ADOM is
pretty linear, if you're playing to win. The time limit pretty much
limits where you go. You basically go to the "easy" dungeon, to the "next
easy" dungeon, then to the "sort of not easy" dungeon which you
periodically crawl out of to do various quests, most of which are not too
different from each other except possibly in minor details.
Even then, ADOM is probably the least linear of the three.
Probably, looking at the "big" picture, roguelikes pretty much involve
trolling around, killing things and taking their possessions. The fact
that that much is predictable is not really such a bad thing.
>
> I never played Nethack. However, some people have had trouble with
>starvation in ADOM as well.
Frequently starving in Nethack makes the ADOM experience a lot easier.
>
> ADOM is a lot of fun. I like the idea of
>> being outside/multiple dungeons/multiple quests, but it complicates
>> things. In Angband, you know who the bad guy is, where he is, and exactly
>> how to get there and, to me at least, combat strategy is simpler in
>> Angband.
Knowing that everyone can be considered a bad guy and expendable only
makes a few things more simple. It's pretty safe to assume that anything
that moves in a straight line towards you which you have not seen before
is hostile. Combat strategy is pretty much the same since the way the
characters, monsters, and dungeon(s) are represented are practically
identical.
>
> Yes, Angband seems to be more linear. More predictable. In ADOM things
>are more likely to be arbitrary and unpredictable. It's harder to have a
>consistent and effective strategy in ADOM. I like the game, especially
>the skills system and the zodiac stuff at the beginning. I don't like
>that it's somewhat timed, though.
Angband is pretty nice about being predictable. Nethack is not so nice
since there's an exception hiding behind practically every rule. The
exceptions tend to be based on the silly thoughts someone had one day.
ADOM tends to be somewhere in between.
Angband characters tend to be characterized completely by their inventory
(after their experience levels and stats are maxed out, etc...) so a lot
of Angband characters look like each other after killing Morgoth. ADOM is
apparently designed to frustrate people whose favorite part of roguelikes
is collecting things.
One of my favorite parts of roguelikes is going through the "high score"
lists- my list tends toward "pathetic deaths", though. Nethack and ADOM
have quite a lot of ways to die. Omega (which doesn't seem to have been
mentioned) may be the worst of all of them in that the game will gleefully
kill you before you've moved your second step with a cosmic ray. If Omega
kept a complete list of deaths (rather than just high scores), it would be
pretty humorous. A lot of ways to die in Omega are insta-deaths, some of
which are practically impossible to survive once they happen.
Insta-deaths are pretty annoying. Games with lots of lingering deaths are
far more interesting though the chaos thing in ADOM is damned annoying.
>
>> Also, I started playing Alphaman this weekend and I find it to be
>> excellent, although I'm having a little trouble with the savefiles.
>>
> Alphaman is pretty cool. I haven't gotten too far, yet. That game
>definitely has some potential for futher development.
>
>Eric
>
Ken
The Dehumanizer
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:33:53 GMT, rich...@ix.netcom.com (Rich) wrote:
>I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
>opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
>to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
Hi there.
IMHO, all three are excellent games. As all are free, you can try the
three without risk.
Here are my opinions about each:
NETHACK: The most realistic of them. It seems that the authors, when
designing it, were trying out stuff and, if it should work in RL, then
it should work in the game. Also includes everything AND the kitchen
sink (play it! :) ). The quest is fun, the classes are quite
different, it even has a religion system. The main problem is
STARVATION. It's not that I like easy games, but in Nethack you are
actually trying to find monsters just so you can eat their corpses and
not die! Nethack seems to think the player is always a glutton, even
if you eat till you're stuffed you're hungry again after a few
minutes. Matters are made worse by the fact that food becomes spoiled
after a time.
Hmm... by reading what I just wrote, you'd believe I don't like
Nethack. Not at all! I think the game is awesome, and I suggest you
try it.
ANGBAND: Diablo is a clone of it. A town, a big dungeon underneath,
with a boss monster on the last level who you have to kill to win. The
Tolkien inspiration is very interesting. It's a simpler game than the
other two. I like it a lot, although, features-wise, it loses to
Nethack and ADOM. Difficulty-wise, it's the opposite of Nethack. NH is
hard at the beginning (hunger) and easier later; Angband is the
opposite, because it has REALLY powerful monsters later on, and food
isn't a big problem.
ADOM: haven't played it for a while (so many games, so little time...)
but it's the most complete and varied of the three games. It isn't
perhaps as polished as the others, which have been enjoying "stable"
versions for years; ADOM is still quite new. But it's the only one to
be skill-based, have really varied classes, wilderness, multiple
dungeons, multiple quests, etc..
In conclusion: all are excellent and worth having & playing. IMHO, of
course.
The Dehumanizer (Pedro Timoteo)
email: d...@ip.pt
www: http://www.ip.pt/~ip001367/
Spam me and suffer the consequences...
William Tanksley
In article <3441094...@nntp.ix.netcom.com> rich...@ix.netcom.com (Rich) writes:
>I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
>opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
>to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
You won't hear many unbiased opinions -- I doubt they exist. I'm sure
you'll get some honest ones, though.
In my opion, the best starter game is probably Angband. Its inventory
isn't as clever as ADOM's, but it is dead simple. In addition, the
gameplay is entirely focussed on the aspects of battle; there's no
chatting or peacemaking. If it moves, kill it.
After that (you needn't FINISH it, just learn to play it), certainly
start ADOM.
After you've played the two somewhat you'll be ready for the whole gamut:
-Omega (HUGE fun, tons of bugs)
-Ragnaroc (difficult, but fun -- and graphical, for a change)
-Nethack (very difficult, REQUIRES spoilers, but tons of fun and almost
no bugs :)
-Rogue (simplicity itself, for when you can't take the complexity)
-Ironman Angband (a different type of simplicity -- no-one's ever beaten
this)
-Slash (Nethack with even MORE stuff)
Have fun! Explore! Ignore the people giving you advice and try ALL of the
games (why not, they're free to try)!
Finally, once you've gotten into a few games, develop your OWN opinion on
what The Ultimate Roguelike game should be. Download the source of the
closest one to what you want (or get Angband, since its source is so
clean) and experiment. Teach yourself C that way -- there is NO better
way.
Join the gang!
>Thanks.....Rich
-Billy
Mika Inkinen
Peng Zhou wrote:
> Rich <rich...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <3441094...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> > opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> > to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
> >
> > Thanks.....Rich
> >
>
> Well, since you asked, I might as well give you this little chart to help
> you decide(though you can save the trouble and play'em all together!)
>
> Topic ADOM Angband Nethack
>
> Easy No No No
> Easy-play Yes Yes Medium
> Pets Yes!!! No Yes
> Multi-Dungeon Yes!!! No Medium
> Replayable Yes!!! Yes Medium
> Tricks Medium No Yes
> Beginner? No Yes Medium
> Complex Yes!!! Medium Yes
> Serious Medium Yes No
> Humor Medium No Yes!!!
> Class Yes Yes Medium
> Race Yes!!! Yes No
> Variants No Yes!!! Yes
> Multi-player No Yes No
> Long Play No Yes(1 month for me) No
> Tolkienize Medium Yes Medium
>
That was a quite good survey, but I disagree on some points. First of all,
Nethack is perhaps the easiest to begin with (in my opinion). It isn't that
hard to grasp the basics, but when you get as far as the Gnomish Mines,
you'll have to learn fast. I myself still sometimes screw up there, and I've
played Nethack for some two to three years.
Even though Nethack is quite easy to begin with, it has loads of tricks and
gimmicks, and a lot of humor as well. I haven't had a chance at ADOM yet
(there isn't any Mac version of it... :( ), so I can't really compare
them... (So, for Complexity, I'd put three exclamation marks after yes).
Then, what do you mean by "re-playable"? I've ascended once, and I'm still
trying to ascend with other professions (or Classes, whatever). But then
again, it's my own subjective opinion...
Continuing on that, I disagree on your "Long Play" grade, for the same
reasons.
Well, those are the opinions of a Nethack half-freak, so you decide yourself
whether to trust them or not...
--
Mika Inkinen
Environmental Research Institute home +358-6-3128948
Vakipyora Ltd. mobile +358-50-5810440
Saaristokatu 2 e-mail Mika.I...@vakipyora.fi
65100 VAASA, FINLAND
Kjetil Svendsberget
> Never played ADOM (is there a Mac version?). OTOH, never had starvation
> problems in NetHack...food poisoning is a different matter altogether,
> though.
No Mac versions yet. The Devoloper hasnt got to version 1.0 yet, and
until then he will not realise the sourcecode. But after that, different
version will spring forward pretty quick i imagine.
> > I don't like
> > that it's somewhat timed, though.
>
> Timed in what way? NetHack I know has some timing (luck modified by the
> phaze of the moon, as are lycanthropes, Friday the 13th being bad, nasty
> things happening from midnight to 1 or 2am IIRC...I don't stay up that
> late so...).
I think he were talking about ADOM, which is timed in a way.
Kjetil - aka Lowlife Dragon
Kjetil Svendsberget
> > Variants No Yes!!! Yes
> > Multi-player No Yes No
> > Long Play No Yes(1 month for me) No
>
> Only started Angband a few months ago.
He meant how long you can play a SINGLE character. In Angband you can
search forever for the right resistances, and i do think Angband take
longer to complete than Nethack or ADOM.
(Ive played all three feriously, but ive only conquered ADOM !!)
Kjetil - aka LowLife Dragon
Dan Martin
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.971013...@becker1.u.washington.edu>,
boo...@u.washington.edu says...
>
>
>
>> the skills system and the zodiac stuff at the beginning. I don't like
>> that it's somewhat timed, though.
>
>Timed in what way? NetHack I know has some timing (luck modified by the
>phaze of the moon, as are lycanthropes, Friday the 13th being bad, nasty
>things happening from midnight to 1 or 2am IIRC...I don't stay up that
>late so...).
>
Basically the longer you play ADOM (the PC not you) the more "corruptions"
you get. The corruptions bring good effects with them and bad effects (mostly
bad). After getting so many corruptions you just up and die. So it is a race
in a way but not in the strictest sense, corruptions can be healed.
Chris Dunthorne
In article <61uutn$4qo$1...@news1.ucsd.edu>, William Tanksley
<wtan...@sdcc10.ucsd.edu> writes
>>opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
>>to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
This is the first time ever that I have found a debate going on over two
or more (three in this case) of 'rival' game newsgroups or anything else
for that matter, where there isn't a huge flame war going on. Can you
imagine this sort of debate going on between some Sega, Sony and
Nintendo newsgroups? No, neither can I.
My suggested route of rouge like games to play, (IMHO) are...
1) Rogue - shows you the basics of what the game looks like and how it
plays. (like playing SpaceInvaders, and then going on to X-wing(= )
2) Larn - Harder and more complex introduces more aspects of the rogue
like game.
3) Nethack - Good clean fun. (=
4) Slash or Angband or ADOM
I'm gonna try and assecend a character in Nethack before I try any of
the others.
>After you've played the two somewhat you'll be ready for the whole gamut:
>
> -Omega (HUGE fun, tons of bugs)
> -Ragnaroc (difficult, but fun -- and graphical, for a change)
> -Nethack (very difficult, REQUIRES spoilers, but tons of fun and almost
>no bugs :)
> -Rogue (simplicity itself, for when you can't take the complexity)
> -Ironman Angband (a different type of simplicity -- no-one's ever beaten
>this)
> -Slash (Nethack with even MORE stuff)
I cut my teeth playing Larn, a bit more complex than Rogue but not by
much. Then again I had Moria on my Amiga before I got my PC. Still fun
though...
>
>Have fun! Explore! Ignore the people giving you advice and try ALL of the
>games (why not, they're free to try)!
Good advice!
--
Chris Dunthorne - c...@tin-god.demon.co.uk
Peng Zhou
Mika Inkinen <Mika.I...@vakipyora.fi> wrote in article
<3443D022...@vakipyora.fi>...
>
>
> Peng Zhou wrote:
>
> > Rich <rich...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> > <3441094...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > > I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> > > opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the
newbie
> > > to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
> > >
> > > Thanks.....Rich
> > >
> >
> > Well, since you asked, I might as well give you this little chart to
help
> > you decide(though you can save the trouble and play'em all together!)
> >
> > Topic ADOM Angband Nethack
> >
> > Easy No No No
> > Easy-play Yes Yes Medium
> > Pets Yes!!! No Yes
> > Multi-Dungeon Yes!!! No Medium
> > Replayable Yes!!! Yes Medium
> > Tricks Medium No Yes
> > Beginner? No Yes Medium
> > Complex Yes!!! Medium Yes
> > Serious Medium Yes No
> > Humor Medium No Yes!!!
> > Class Yes Yes Medium
> > Race Yes!!! Yes No
> > Variants No Yes!!! Yes
> > Multi-player No Yes No
> > Long Play No Yes(1 month for me) No
> > Tolkienize Medium Yes Medium
> >
>
> That was a quite good survey, but I disagree on some points. First of
all,
> Nethack is perhaps the easiest to begin with (in my opinion). It isn't
that
> hard to grasp the basics, but when you get as far as the Gnomish Mines,
> you'll have to learn fast. I myself still sometimes screw up there, and
I've
> played Nethack for some two to three years.
No, I mean easy-to-use, Nethack's corridors are very misleading, but then
that's to a average roguelike player. The complexity of Nethack also leads
to major confusion, that's why Nethack AND Adom is not very good game for
beginners, Angband alone has little of quests, tricks, hard-to-pass
situations where hack-n-slash isn't good enough. Thus a good choice to get
started on.(Oh, and Angband's many variants are quiet good.)
>
> Even though Nethack is quite easy to begin with, it has loads of tricks
and
> gimmicks, and a lot of humor as well. I haven't had a chance at ADOM yet
> (there isn't any Mac version of it... :( ), so I can't really compare
> them... (So, for Complexity, I'd put three exclamation marks after yes).
Complexity = Yes, why? Simple, Nethack has, what, how many uniques? 10
maybe, perhaps maxium 20. The many locations it covers all have their own
drawbacks, character level only goes to level 30, and there isn't really
too much interesting locations.(The whole dungeon of Nethack takes about 50
levels, compare that to Angband's 100 and ADOM's, well, alot(counting the
infinite dungeon.)) There is about 5 really cool artifacts, all the rest
concentrates on slay something(e.g. Trollbane). But what really bothers me
is that although the DevTeam concentrated so much on the pets system, it
still isn't very user-friendly. I mean, it is very easy for a pet to get
lost, and when it do you'll have to search for'em, adding to this that
Nethack doesn't have many foods, you've got yourself a lose-lose situation.
It is not very good for absolute beginners(whom doesn't know much of the
more complex roguelike games or just hasn't known any roguelike games at
all.), all in all, but for experience players who can manage 10+ level
characters without no problem, it's much much better.
>
> Then, what do you mean by "re-playable"? I've ascended once, and I'm
still
> trying to ascend with other professions (or Classes, whatever). But then
> again, it's my own subjective opinion...
Re-playable means it is fun to replay, Nethack's too straight forward to
have much fun in replaying. ADOM also falls in that category, but the
quest & multi-dungeon levels manage that. Angband alone has a long way to
go for replayability, every game is different, you don't definitely have to
do the same things to win(though for all three games there is only one or
two *main* goal, ADOM is known for its two goals.)
>
> Continuing on that, I disagree on your "Long Play" grade, for the same
> reasons.
How do you expect to play Nethack for a day long and not pass
it?(Considering that your character doesn't die of course.)
>
> Well, those are the opinions of a Nethack half-freak, so you decide
yourself
> whether to trust them or not...
Well, I'm sort of a Adom-freak, but I'm open minded and played all these
games throughoutly, except Angband, which I have yet to win.
Peng Zhou
William Tanksley <wtan...@sdcc10.ucsd.edu> wrote in article
<61uutn$4qo$1...@news1.ucsd.edu>...
> In article <3441094...@nntp.ix.netcom.com> rich...@ix.netcom.com
(Rich) writes:
> >I'm new to this type of gameplay and I would like your UNBIASED
> >opinion as to which game is best and which game is best for the newbie
> >to begin with. Please - only your hinest opinion.
>
> You won't hear many unbiased opinions -- I doubt they exist. I'm sure
> you'll get some honest ones, though.
>
> In my opion, the best starter game is probably Angband. Its inventory
> isn't as clever as ADOM's, but it is dead simple. In addition, the
> gameplay is entirely focussed on the aspects of battle; there's no
> chatting or peacemaking. If it moves, kill it.
>
> After that (you needn't FINISH it, just learn to play it), certainly
> start ADOM.
>
> After you've played the two somewhat you'll be ready for the whole gamut:
>
> -Omega (HUGE fun, tons of bugs)
> -Ragnaroc (difficult, but fun -- and graphical, for a change)
> -Nethack (very difficult, REQUIRES spoilers, but tons of fun and almost
> no bugs :)
> -Rogue (simplicity itself, for when you can't take the complexity)
> -Ironman Angband (a different type of simplicity -- no-one's ever
beaten
> this)
> -Slash (Nethack with even MORE stuff)
>
> Have fun! Explore! Ignore the people giving you advice and try ALL of
the
> games (why not, they're free to try)!
>
> Finally, once you've gotten into a few games, develop your OWN opinion on
> what The Ultimate Roguelike game should be. Download the source of the
> closest one to what you want (or get Angband, since its source is so
> clean) and experiment. Teach yourself C that way -- there is NO better
> way.
Actually, the Angband code(although is easiest) is quiet hard to learn
until you're having 1-4 years of C experience and a good reference for
finding what the symbols are. I mean, no C programmer can understand a
statement like:
#define HIC 5100x900
if (a_term->ply & ffx100)
{
functoin1(HIC)
if (function1 & function1() -1)
{
if (a_term->class & ffx150)
{
function2()
while (a->c.type)
{
p->ptr.class = a->c.type;
a.x.ue = a->c.type & a->b.type;
bios.a.x = 10x10;
}
}
}
a->c.type & a->c.ply;
}
Sure, a professional can understand this, but normal C programmers? No, I
don't think so.
If you understand totally this statement, than you're a professional
programmer.
This isn't exaclty as it is listed in the Angband code but it is somewhere
like this and contains more defined statements.(top of my head, duh!)
ADOM's source codes is coming... Watch OUT!!!
Shimpei Yamashita
Peng Zhou <pen...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>Actually, the Angband code(although is easiest) is quiet hard to learn
>until you're having 1-4 years of C experience and a good reference for
>finding what the symbols are.
I've never seen production quality C code (i.e., not textbook examples)
that's readable to non-programmers. Ben Harrison has done a great job
commenting practically every line that isn't completely obvious.
If you know of a major software package (not just roguelikes) whose C
source is easier to read than Angband's, I'd like to hear about it. I
can always use a good study aid for coding.
>ADOM's source codes is coming... Watch OUT!!!
Of course, nobody knows how good ADOM's code is yet....
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.patnet.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
Thomas Pornin
In article <621khd$c...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
Shimpei Yamashita <shi...@socrates.caltech.edu> wrote:
>If you know of a major software package (not just roguelikes) whose C
>source is easier to read than Angband's, I'd like to hear about it. I
>can always use a good study aid for coding.
I have not looked at the Angband source, but I can tell that the
most readable sources I have ever seen are nethack and the linux
kernel. And I do not think the part quoted is much readable (the
identifiers are too short). But, again, this may not be representative
of the whole source.
--Thomas Pornin
D.J. Schreffler
On 15 Oct 1997, Peng Zhou wrote:
> No, I mean easy-to-use, Nethack's corridors are very misleading, but then
> that's to a average roguelike player. The complexity of Nethack also leads
> to major confusion, that's why Nethack AND Adom is not very good game for
> beginners, Angband alone has little of quests, tricks, hard-to-pass
> situations where hack-n-slash isn't good enough. Thus a good choice to get
> started on.(Oh, and Angband's many variants are quiet good.)
A-hem? *NetHack's* corridor's being misleading? Surely you meant to put
Angband there! All sorts of dead ends, etc....al least with Nethack, the
entire map is on one screen so if you get lost you know where to go and it
isn't a big deal...
> Re-playable means it is fun to replay, Nethack's too straight forward to
> have much fun in replaying. ADOM also falls in that category, but the
> quest & multi-dungeon levels manage that. Angband alone has a long way to
> go for replayability, every game is different, you don't definitely have to
> do the same things to win(though for all three games there is only one or
> two *main* goal, ADOM is known for its two goals.)
So you set new restrictions. Like the atheist, wishless, genocideless,
vegatarian, naked, weaponless tourist who abandons his pet right off the
bat!
D.J. Schreffler
Thomas Biskup
In rec.games.roguelike.angband Peng Zhou <pen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> ADOM's source codes is coming... Watch OUT!!!
Watch out and shiver in fear probably would be more to the point as
far as some parts of the code are concerned :->
When I started writing ADOM I did it for my private fun and still was
not very experienced doing very large projects (which ADOM now, after
4 years of continued work, definitely is). Comments? Bah, for
weaklings! Good design? Bah, it never will be larger than 20000
lines of code or so (now it's at about 110000 lines). Colored output?
Why? (now it has colored output). Multiple dungeons and towns and
levels other than caves? Why? (now it has all that).
The ADOM source code in many places is very ugly and hard to
understand. The display code is probably the worst part (I no longer
completely understand all its exceptions myself... proof for this is
that there are still problems with the display when darkness is a
factor). It really needs to be rewritten one day in a clean and
effective way to take care of all the bazillion add-ons that appeared
as time went by, but I just don't want to do it now.
The latest parts of the code I am proud of (I really find them to be
well-structured in most cases), but the older parts are the work of a
mad man :-^ I still make good use of 'grep' to transmit major changes
in the source code :-)
BTW, the source code will be released when ADOM 1.0.0 is out (before
you start asking again ;-). It probably will happen in two steps,
first being released to all the volunteers who offered to port it to
another system, and then the rest (so that they'll get a version which
is somewhat more understandable).
--
Thomas Biskup
ADOM maintainer
Official ADOM webpage available at http://users.aol.com/ADOMDev/index.html
Antti Arola
>One of my favorite parts of roguelikes is going through the "high score"
>lists- my list tends toward "pathetic deaths", though. Nethack and ADOM
>have quite a lot of ways to die. Omega (which doesn't seem to have been
>mentioned) may be the worst of all of them in that the game will gleefully
>kill you before you've moved your second step with a cosmic ray. If Omega
My top death was the wrath of gods in 0.71. At the time I had more than
5000 HP (potion of life - the single most unbalancing thing in the game
after Hellfire :-) and the effect reduced me to 0 (killing me) by dealing
me ONE damage, *requiring me to press space* and proceeding to the next
point... No way to quit while doing it. :-)
- AeA / An-Tiar e dari (TIOMTKKK)
antti...@lut.fi
Eric Wright
Having experience with the sources for both nethack and
angband, and no other C experience, I have to say angband's
is much more readable, if for no other reason than the
copious comments Ben has put into the code. Just about
every non-obvious line, and many of the obvious ones, have
comments explaining their purpose.
My $0.05
E
--
FOR SALE: Parachute. Used once. Never opened. Slightly stained.
Steven A White
In article <34460685...@spike.physics.ncsu.edu>,
thing. I saw the old Angband object creation code. That was evil...
Nethack code would be very readable if it wasn't for the exceptions.
Methack is a small pretty program screaming to be let out of all the
exceptional cases.
Nethack is scary. You know, most program you'd think 80% of the code
is standard case, and 20% to handle exceptional circumstances. Frankly,
with nethack it appears to be the opposite. :) *
But yes, Angband has been nicely cleaned up. I recently looked at the
conquer5 sources. Those are scary. No comments and curses user interface
code is spread all through the ruleset code. This is not one game
you'd swap user interface modules for like you can with Angband.
Steven White
* Do You know how to eat a cockatrice and come out stronger? No AoLS.
Billy Bissette
Antti Arola <aar...@hepo.cc.lut.fi> wrote in article
> 5000 HP (potion of life - the single most unbalancing thing in the game
> after Hellfire :-) and the effect reduced me to 0 (killing me) by dealing
> me ONE damage, *requiring me to press space* and proceeding to the next
> point... No way to quit while doing it. :-)
Potion of Life may be unbalancing... but the Apportment
(teleport a distant object to you) was what allowed you to
easily get many items... Go just inside the Dragon's Den,
apport out all the treasure, leave, then return. You only
had to worry about a couple of the creatures that were in
the outer area. Although that invisible "coma beast" will
get you at low levels... :P
And weren't there cursed 7-league boots?
Thankfully I didn't have many hitpoints when I encountered
wrath of the gods... I'd forgotten about that.
Eric Wright
AUGH! Keep the game specific stories to the correct
newsgroup. This thread is about the relative merits
of the three games, not a thread to vent over YASDs
Thanks
E
(Note the newsgroup list...)