Speed, and Poison and Nether Resistance: where are they?
Jonathan L. Ellis
I (Gandalf the Human Mage again) am now scumming round about 2700'.
Following to my earlier worries, a lot of artifacts came in a rush at 2000',
half a dozen or so at 2500'-ish, and recently the supply has dried up
completely even though there are *loads* more (appropriate to the level) that
are available. I was told that Rings of Speed are naturally 2500'-ish items,
boots a little earlier: so why, at 2700', have I not found *any* at all since
2000'? I got a pair of Boots of Speed (+4) and a Ring (+5), added them to
Ringil to get +19 permanent speed: and have not found a single speed item
since - which is no longer proving to be enough against heavy nether breathers
such as Nightwalkers (or is it crawlers?) and Azriel. And the uniques are
mostly at +20 speed now, and I don't like using GoI as (1) it runs out fairly
fast, and (2) I think it's a bit unfair as other character classes don't have
it or equivalent. I can't find nether resistance *anywhere*: and before you
ask, I've found just three Elvenkind things during the game (resist sound,
dark or chaos - I am wearing the latter) and NO Robes of Permanence or Cloaks
of Aman of any description. I have chaos, light, blindness (via Dor-Lomin) and
disenchantment (Calris is my spare weapon) covered, but poison still only via
the spell in Resistances as Rings of Poison Resistance haven't even turned up
in the Black Market since I was 8th level and unable to buy it, and I
can't get nether at all - with not only the wraiths and Azriel but nether and
ethereal hounds proving very tiresome. (PS. 8 Ringwraiths dead, and Fundin,
and all previous uniques except Thuringwethil who I haven't met yet. Azriel
was a bit out of depth, by one or two levels. Still no GCVs, but have been in
one Greater Traps Vault and met nothing worse than a Dracolich.)
By the way, why are there two types of creature both called "ethereal
hound", but one is able to move through walls and breathe nether where the
other has no breath weapon, does not move through walls and is infinitely
weaker in terms of hp? Maybe one should be renamed, something like "astral
hound".
Also: Why, when I have Sustain All Stats from Anarion, do Time Hounds
and Vortexes drain my stats? Sustain stats should work against *any* method of
draining, including time (and Hold Life - which I also can't find anywhere -
should likewise be, I hope, something of a proof against the time attack as
well as other draining attacks.)
Jonathan Ellis.
Roger Hoyle
Jonathan L. Ellis wrote:
>
> By the way, why are there two types of creature both called "ethereal
> hound", but one is able to move through walls and breathe nether where the
> other has no breath weapon, does not move through walls and is infinitely
> weaker in terms of hp? Maybe one should be renamed, something like "astral
> hound".
You'll be thinking of Nether hounds and Etheral hounds. They both
breathe nether, but Etheral hounds can pass through walls, and have
slightly more HPs. *much* nastier....
cheers
rog.
Eric Wright
Jonathan L. Ellis wrote:
> Also: Why, when I have Sustain All Stats from Anarion, do Time Hounds
> and Vortexes drain my stats? Sustain stats should work against *any* method of
> draining, including time (and Hold Life - which I also can't find anywhere -
> should likewise be, I hope, something of a proof against the time attack as
> well as other draining attacks.)
>
You, my friend, have fallen to a hideous pun of Angband, in
that nothing can resist the ravages of time!!! I find it
annoying, but not too deadly, if you have ESP. The vortices
can be a bitch, tho'.
E
Ronald the Half-a-Punk
Eric Wright wrote:
>
> Jonathan L. Ellis wrote:
>
> > Also: Why, when I have Sustain All Stats from Anarion, do Time Hounds
> > and Vortexes drain my stats? Sustain stats should work against *any* method of
> > draining, including time (and Hold Life - which I also can't find anywhere -
> > should likewise be, I hope, something of a proof against the time attack as
> > well as other draining attacks.)
> >
> You, my friend, have fallen to a hideous pun of Angband, in
> that nothing can resist the ravages of time!!!
I find it quite reasonable,after all,if i remember my readings
of norse mythology,time is the only thing which would eventually
bring down the gods themselves.
> I find it
> annoying, but not too deadly, if you have ESP. The vortices
> can be a bitch, tho'.
If you can detect them from far off,take care to cast door creation
before one comes near.Vortices only get through doors by bashing
them open - i.e. the vortex will only pass through the door by
moving into your melee range :)
P.S.
The original poster was complaining about there being two kinds
of Ethereal Hounds.You must be playing an old version,because there's
only one kind of them in 2.8.x.The "easy" type of them is renamed to
"Clear Hound" in recent versions.Those that pass through walls
and breathe nether got a light green colour (indicating their
breath weapon) and are the only "Ethereal Hounds" now.
To make them easier to distinguish,you could go into your
r_info.txt file (in the /lib/edit subdirectory),change their
symbol or colour and then force the game to include these
changes by deleting the file
r_info.raw from the subdirectory /lib/data
Or you could get the most recent version,Angband 2.8.1.
Hope this helps.
Wrdlbrmpft
Jonathan L. Ellis wrote:
>
...
> I was told that Rings of Speed are naturally 2500'-ish items,
> boots a little earlier: so why, at 2700', have I not found *any* at all since
> 2000'? I got a pair of Boots of Speed (+4) and a Ring (+5), added them to
> Ringil to get +19 permanent speed: and have not found a single speed item
> since - which is no longer proving to be enough against heavy nether breathers
> such as Nightwalkers (or is it crawlers?) and Azriel. And the uniques are
> mostly at +20 speed now,
Speed ring territory is beyond 4000'. And speed boots are very rare at
any
depth. I already had 5 winners - only one of them found one pair of
Boots of speed. And only one found Ringil (murphys law: it war the
priest),
only one found Cubragol, and none found feanor. Two or three found a
ring of speed before 4000', but none did use it much (prefered rings of
con / poison resist / int / damage / slaying).
You can deal very well with any moster, if you're at par with it when
hasted, so it doesnt get double attacks w/o a chance to react.
And you dont have to kill any monster you see just because its there -
let Azriel alive until you feel ready for him.
> I can't find nether resistance *anywhere*: and before you
> ask, I've found just three Elvenkind things during the game (resist sound,
> dark or chaos - I am wearing the latter) and NO Robes of Permanence or Cloaks
> of Aman of any description.
Two of my winners *never* had nether resistance.
Two had it only very late in the game.
Yes, one found filthy rags of elvenkind (r.nether) at 2000',
carrying it around as spare armor.
> I have chaos, light, blindness (via Dor-Lomin) and
> disenchantment (Calris is my spare weapon) covered, but poison still only via
> the spell in Resistances as Rings of Poison Resistance haven't even turned up
> in the Black Market since I was 8th level and unable to buy it, and I
> can't get nether at all - with not only the wraiths and Azriel but nether and
> ethereal hounds proving very tiresome.
You're a mage, aren't you ? Ever tried genocide ?
> Also: Why, when I have Sustain All Stats from Anarion, do Time Hounds
> and Vortexes drain my stats? Sustain stats should work against *any* method of
> draining, including time
You had lower stats when you were yonger, didn't you ?
> (and Hold Life - which I also can't find anywhere - should likewise be.)
One of my winners *never* had hold life (he finished the game with the
phial).
Its nice, but not necessary, since RLL potions are cheap and available
(stock
them at home).
>
> Jonathan Ellis.
Werner.
Russ Allbery
Ronald the Half-a-Punk <e1...@zfn.uni-bremen.de> writes:
> Eric Wright wrote:
>> You, my friend, have fallen to a hideous pun of Angband, in that
>> nothing can resist the ravages of time!!!
> I find it quite reasonable,after all,if i remember my readings of norse
> mythology,time is the only thing which would eventually bring down the
> gods themselves.
Of course, technically, this being Angband and all, shouldn't elves have
intrinsic immunity to Time? (I'm not seriously proposing this, but it
would make a degree of sense.)
Incidentally, speaking of what would be appropriate from Tolkien, did
anything ever happen to the proposal to replace the Angels and Angelic
uniques with Numenoreans? This is still (next to Farmer Maggot being
present as a villain) far and away the most annoying inconsistency with
Tolkien's works for an avid LotR fan.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu) <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Jonathan L. Ellis
Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> writes:
>Incidentally, speaking of what would be appropriate from Tolkien, did
>anything ever happen to the proposal to replace the Angels and Angelic
>uniques with Numenoreans? This is still (next to Farmer Maggot being
>present as a villain) far and away the most annoying inconsistency with
>Tolkien's works for an avid LotR fan.
Never mind Numenoreans. They are already present in some numbers: the Umbar
twins were descended from the Black Numenoreans (Black in terms of deeds not
colour, I hasten to add, before a racism thread crops up) and at least three
of the Nazgul were said to be of Numenorean race.
The main dislike I have is in slaughtering things that are supposed to be
intrinsically good: such as Maggot , Bullroarer and of course the Angels. Of
course, angels can turn bad, so there isn't so much of a problem with the
lesser ones and I don't worry about fighting Azriel the Angel of Death (got
him yesterday with GoI) - and even Uriel the Angel of Fire (how often does
fire crop up as a weapon of evil?) - but Gabriel, the Messenger, one of the
greatest examples of all that is Good, behind only God and Jesus in the
heavenly hierarchy? I'd rather see, for instance, something like Lucifer the
Angel of Darkness. Along with a monster description such as: "The supreme lord
of darkness and enemy of all that is good. Although not of Middle-Earth and
thus less powerful here than in his own world, he is still a terrible enemy
to face." or something like that. And able to breathe darkness and suchlike.
As for Maggot, you could replace him with a small-time villain like Lotho
"Pimple" Sackville-Baggins. And Bullroarer with somebody like Bill Ferny. It
also irks me somewhat that Bullroarer is far less powerful than Golfimbul who
he slew with a single blow of a club.
I would also like to see added some of the Dark Elves as nasty uniques -
how about Maeglin, the Traitor of Gondolin, or his father Eol the Dark Elf?
(Both would need to drop good items - Maeglin better than Eol) but we could
make up for this addition by dropping a few uniques from elsewhere: people
like Fundin Bluecloak spring to mind, as I don't believe he's from the Tolkien
world.
Jonathan Ellis.
Ronald the Half-a-Punk
Jonathan L. Ellis wrote:
>
> Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> writes:
>
> >Incidentally, speaking of what would be appropriate from Tolkien, did
> >anything ever happen to the proposal to replace the Angels and Angelic
> >uniques with Numenoreans? This is still (next to Farmer Maggot being
> >present as a villain) far and away the most annoying inconsistency with
> >Tolkien's works for an avid LotR fan.
>
> Never mind Numenoreans. They are already present in some numbers: the Umbar
> twins were descended from the Black Numenoreans (Black in terms of deeds not
> colour, I hasten to add, before a racism thread crops up) and at least three
> of the Nazgul were said to be of Numenorean race.
Yeah,but all of them are uniques.However,getting some extra
numenoreans as non-unique monsters could be a good substitute
for all the dark elven somethings - not susceptible to light,
of course,but generally a bit stronger and more apt at magic
than the standard human casters (numenoreans are Dunedain,
after all).
What i'd really like would be tolkien-based creatures
like Beorn the Old (or a mean relative of him if you think
he's too good),the winged beasts of the Nazgūl and
perhaps some more enemy-type people of the player races
(Gnome Necromancers,dwarf fighters,whatever).
Also,what about adding some more races of Orks,esp. power-
ful ones deeper in the pits? Morgoth's and Sauron's armies
were mainly orcs,and they must've been pretty good at fighting.
> The main dislike I have is in slaughtering things that are supposed to be
> intrinsically good: such as Maggot , Bullroarer and of course the Angels. Of
> course, angels can turn bad, so there isn't so much of a problem with the
> lesser ones
Ummmmm...
Who says that the *player character* is always good? If you get
Morgoth's crown,you'll be so powerful that the forces of good
would consider it highly dangerous. If you put on the crown
you will de facto be the new Lord of Darkness.
> but Gabriel, the Messenger, one of the
> greatest examples of all that is Good, behind only God and Jesus in the
> heavenly hierarchy?
Shouldn't Michal be greater or at least as great as Gavril?
> I'd rather see, for instance, something like Lucifer the
> Angel of Darkness.
Do you realize that Lucifer means "light-bringer" ?
I don't like this idea.In christianism,all fallen angels are
devils and thus can't be counted as Angels any longer (should
get the symbol "U" for major demonic beings in Angband).
Either you keep fighting angels,implying that the player
has to overcome both the forces of good and evil to reach
the goal,or you want the player to be good and take out
angels completely.
> As for Maggot, you could replace him with a small-time villain like Lotho
> "Pimple" Sackville-Baggins.
Well,Farmer Maggot wasn't particularly nice to outlandish folk
and to people who tried stealing his mushrooms :)
Mistress Sackville-Baggins (forgot her proper name) could
be a nice substitute for Bullroarer,though:keeps picking
up all kind of nice items,and if you don't look out,she'll
nick your silver spoons.
> And Bullroarer with somebody like Bill Ferny. It
> also irks me somewhat that Bullroarer is far less powerful than Golfimbul who
> he slew with a single blow of a club.
> I would also like to see added some of the Dark Elves as nasty uniques -
> how about Maeglin, the Traitor of Gondolin, or his father Eol the Dark Elf?
Maeglin definitely.I always wondered why such a villain was left
out and Gorlim the Unhappy was instead titled "Betrayer of Barahir"
and given an extremely negative description.
I think more stronger orcs (and some tougher trolls) could be
a good addition,as well as adding some more vampires and
including a good deal more different and above all powerful
werewolves - those appear to be really impressive in the
Silmarillion,and what has the game made of them? Some slow-
moving dimwits who keep picking up stuff,can't walk in a
straight line and drop dead if you look at them too hard.
Y'know here at the TMfAP a werewolf guards the premises,
and we sure can't complain about unwelcome visitors.'smatterofact,
sometimes we forget to put the wolf on the leash when the
postman brings the newest orders from the boss,and no,we
don't do this to avoid boring work,honestly ;)
D.J. Schreffler
On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Jonathan L. Ellis wrote:
[snip]
> him yesterday with GoI) - and even Uriel the Angel of Fire (how often does
> fire crop up as a weapon of evil?) - but Gabriel, the Messenger, one of the
> greatest examples of all that is Good, behind only God and Jesus in the
> heavenly hierarchy? I'd rather see, for instance, something like Lucifer the
IIRC, Michael the Archangel is the most powerful angel, w/Gabriel right
behind him.
> Angel of Darkness. Along with a monster desc such as: "The supreme lord
> of darkness and enemy of all that is good. Although not of Middle-Earth and
> thus less powerful here than in his own world, he is still a terrible enemy
> to face." or something like that. And able to breathe darkness and suchlike.
Or 'Phil, the prince of insuficient light' (Darn you to heck!) <ok, so
he's from _Dilbert_ and created by Scott Adams>. :-)
> As for Maggot, you could replace him with a small-time villain like Lotho
> "Pimple" Sackville-Baggins. And Bullroarer with somebody like Bill Ferny. It
> also irks me somewhat that Bullroarer is far less powerful than Golfimbul who
> he slew with a single blow of a club.
> I would also like to see added some of the Dark Elves as nasty uniques -
> how about Maeglin, the Traitor of Gondolin, or his father Eol the Dark Elf?
> (Both would need to drop good items - Maeglin better than Eol) but we could
Sounds good.
D.J. Schreffler
Russ Allbery
Right. Good to see this come up again. :) Before I stopped posting to
this group some time back due to lack of time, I was one of the proponents
of an overhaul in some of the monsters to get rid of some of the more
dramatically non-Tolkien beasts. This is *not* the same as creating a
Tolkien-only Angband -- we had some discussions about that, and while I
still think it would be an interesting variant, it would change the entire
shape of the game so dramatically that it could never be done in the main
development line.
Rather, the goal was to make some *minor* changes, at least relatively
speaking, in an attempt to eliminate the elements of Angband that are the
most dramatically inconsistent with Tolkien's works and mythos. General
agreement was that the Angels were far and away the worst offenders in
that regard. Tolkien, and Angband, already *has* angels. They're called
Maiar, and fallen Maiar are Balrogs. Having both Angels and Balrogs in
the game is sort of like having both goblins and orcs (there are no
goblins in Tolkien, and therefore no goblins in Angband -- "goblin" is a
mistaken term for orc).
Jonathan L Ellis <clu...@mcc.ac.uk> writes:
> Never mind Numenoreans. They are already present in some numbers: the
> Umbar twins were descended from the Black Numenoreans (Black in terms of
> deeds not colour, I hasten to add, before a racism thread crops up) and
> at least three of the Nazgul were said to be of Numenorean race.
The reason why Numenoreans were the most popular choices for replacing the
angels is because there are no *non-unique* Numenoreans in the game,
despite the fact that they are present in great numbers in Tolkien's
works. One of the problems with making Angband closer to Tolkien is that
Angband has a *lot* more variety of monsters than Tolkien has; Numenoreans
are one of the few things present in numbers that have not already been
added to Angband.
Numenoreans from before the Fall of Numenor (see the Silmarillion for
references) would also fall at about the right power level to replace the
Angels, and there are *definitely* enough named Numenoreans in the Sil to
replace all the angelic uniques. Ar-Pharazon, King of Numenor, would make
an excellent replacement for Gabriel, to the point where I personally
don't think that any of Gabriel's powers and abilities would even have to
be changed (except Summon Angel would change to Summon Numenorean).
> The main dislike I have is in slaughtering things that are supposed to
> be intrinsically good: such as Maggot, Bullroarer, and of course the
> Angels.
Right. There has always been this problem as well.
My personal opinion is that Farmer Maggot is so firmly engrained into
Angband's history and feel that there's no way we'll ever get rid of him,
or even change the name. Bullroarer may be a bit easier; he isn't as
widely known and named, and would be a reasonable one to replace. But I
actually don't mind killing good creatures nearly as much as running into
things that, by their very existence, totally contradict Tolkien mythology
(as opposed to creatures like Tiamat who aren't from Tolkien mythology but
who *could* be if you pushed it -- although on that score, one thing that
I've always objected to is having Tiamat be more powerful than Ancalagon).
> I would also like to see added some of the Dark Elves as nasty
> uniques - how about Maeglin, the Traitor of Gondolin, or his father Eol
> the Dark Elf?
The Kinslayers have always been my choice to use to replace some of the
more dramatically non-Tolkien high-level uniques, but I'm not sure if
that's ever going to happen. Most of those uniques have a rather firm
place in Angband (like the Phoenix) and aren't easily replaced with an
Elf. That may have to wait for an all-Tolkien variant.
> people like Fundin Bluecloak spring to mind, as I don't believe he's
> from the Tolkien world.
Fundin Bluecloak doesn't bother me since, as I recall, that was the name
of one of the first characters to ever defeat Angband and kill Morgoth.
Having him permanently enshrined as a unique is appropriate.
Stephen Lee
In article <m3g1u53...@windlord.Stanford.EDU>,
Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote:
>Right. Good to see this come up again. :) Before I stopped posting to
>this group some time back due to lack of time, I was one of the proponents
>of an overhaul in some of the monsters to get rid of some of the more
>dramatically non-Tolkien beasts. This is *not* the same as creating a
>Tolkien-only Angband -- we had some discussions about that, and while I
>still think it would be an interesting variant, it would change the entire
>shape of the game so dramatically that it could never be done in the main
>development line.
Well, actually, the regular monster list could use an overhaul too (do
you know how *old* that is? The only real change I know of is that
seedy looking humans no longer exist.) I think that should be done before
uniques, really (though adding Gimilkhad, Ar-Pharazon, Mauhur, Maeglin,
Eol, probably the sons of Feanor as *non-evil* uniques, etc. would be
appropriate; removing the unique A's, Vecna, and Bullroarer).
It's probably a big enough project to require a mailing list.
As for the "non-Tolkien" part: I'll find monsters from "classical"
mythology acceptable, as long as they don't threaten to overwhelm the game.
The only egregious non-unique exception to this is the Green Glutton Ghost,
and that's been in the game since before Angband even existed.
Something needs to be done to "spread" out the monsters over the dungeon
more: too much concentration early on, particularly the rapid increases
in difficulty in the 2000'-2500' range. Also, many types of monsters can
be "stretched": Uruk-Hai should be pretty studly, I think; ditto for
other monsters, such as giants and vampires, high-level "p" opponents, etc.
E.g. for "d" and "D" I had something in mind:
(1) Ages: Baby/Young/Mature/Old/Ancient/Great Wyrm (not all used for all
types)
(2) Types: law/balance/chaos; white/black/blue/green/red/multi-hued/
copper/silver/gold/crystal/mithril/adamantium; death
(the reworking of the metal dragons is to make things more consistent;
and of course dragons wouldn't be the wusses they often are, with
appropriate depth adjustments)
For "p" you can add high-level mages and fighters, both of which seem to
be absent from the game. "P" could expand perhaps: not just Frost
Giants, but Frost Giant Warriors, Shamans, and Lords as well, for instance.
(Applying monster rarity rules would be important here; don't want more
Frost Giant Lords than ordinary Frost Giants :).
"L" monsters aren't powerful enough at the lower levels, IMO. "V" needs
to be expanded; the power level of "o" and "T" should probably be
expanded over more levels.
Some monsters are overpowered: dracolisks, wereworms, maybe dracoliches
and gravity/impact/ethereal hounds need some toning down, especially if
we're going to beef up other critters.
It's possible to go on and on. I've been thinking of starting a project
to make a brand new monster list, but this is such a staggering effort
(even with lots of people working together) that I'm hesitant to do so
unless there's a lot of interest, particularly on the part of Ben or a
variant maintainer to include it in a release, since I don't want such
effort to not be playable.
What do people think?
--
Stephen S. Lee (ssj...@netcom.com), prospective molecular biologist
Note: this message has been protected from prying eyes by the application
of two rounds of the ROT-13 encryption technique.
David R. Henry
Jonathan L. Ellis writes:
> I would also like to see added some of the Dark Elves as nasty uniques -
>how about Maeglin, the Traitor of Gondolin, or his father Eol the Dark Elf?
>(Both would need to drop good items - Maeglin better than Eol) but we could
>make up for this addition by dropping a few uniques from elsewhere: people
>like Fundin Bluecloak spring to mind, as I don't believe he's from the Tolkien
>world.
Actually, Fundin Bluecloak was the first character to solve the game, and
the great Charlie Ball was his creator. Bluecloak was immortalized within
the game itself to piss off the rest of us, a trait Mr. Ball certainly would
have no trouble agreeing with. :)
--
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu
To say I was doing better would be to admit the possibility of admitting
I could get worse. For the moment, I held my counsel, even to myself.
Jonathan L. Ellis
In article <5outhm$n...@plains.NoDak.edu> dhe...@plains.NoDak.edu (David R. Henry) writes:
>From: dhe...@plains.NoDak.edu (David R. Henry)
>Subject: Re: Killing "good" rather than "evil" creatures: why?
>Date: 26 Jun 1997 18:21:26 -0500
>Jonathan L. Ellis writes:
>> I would also like to see added some of the Dark Elves as nasty uniques -
>>how about Maeglin, the Traitor of Gondolin, or his father Eol the Dark Elf?
>>(Both would need to drop good items - Maeglin better than Eol) but we could
>>make up for this addition by dropping a few uniques from elsewhere: people
>>like Fundin Bluecloak spring to mind, as I don't believe he's from the Tolkien
>>world.
>Actually, Fundin Bluecloak was the first character to solve the game, and
>the great Charlie Ball was his creator. Bluecloak was immortalized within
>the game itself to piss off the rest of us, a trait Mr. Ball certainly would
>have no trouble agreeing with. :)
I believe a character called "Iggy" was similarly immortalised in Moria
as "the Evil Iggy" - and for the same reason. I like the story also of how the
Balrog was first beaten with some kind of trick which has since been
prevented: I wonder if Iggy's creator was the inventor of the pillar dance -
and nearly fell of his chair next time when the Balrog came straight *through*
the wall...
Jonathan Ellis.
D.J. Schreffler
On 26 Jun 1997, Russ Allbery wrote:
[snip]
> Right. Good to see this come up again. :) Before I stopped posting to
> this group some time back due to lack of time, I was one of the proponents
> of an overhaul in some of the monsters to get rid of some of the more
> dramatically non-Tolkien beasts. This is *not* the same as creating a
> Tolkien-only Angband -- we had some discussions about that, and while I
> still think it would be an interesting variant, it would change the entire
> shape of the game so dramatically that it could never be done in the main
> development line.
>
> Rather, the goal was to make some *minor* changes, at least relatively
> speaking, in an attempt to eliminate the elements of Angband that are the
> most dramatically inconsistent with Tolkien's works and mythos. General
> agreement was that the Angels were far and away the worst offenders in
> that regard. Tolkien, and Angband, already *has* angels. They're called
> Maiar, and fallen Maiar are Balrogs. Having both Angels and Balrogs in
> the game is sort of like having both goblins and orcs (there are no
> goblins in Tolkien, and therefore no goblins in Angband -- "goblin" is a
> mistaken term for orc).
Minor nitpick....IIRC, Bilbo and company get captured by goblins in the
Hobbit.
D.J. Schreffler, who is currently looking for the 5000' spellbook
Frank Muzzulini
Ronald the Half-a-Punk <e1...@zfn.uni-bremen.de> writes:
> Yeah,but all of them are uniques.However,getting some extra
> numenoreans as non-unique monsters could be a good substitute
> for all the dark elven somethings - not susceptible to light,
> of course,but generally a bit stronger and more apt at magic
> than the standard human casters (numenoreans are Dunedain,
> after all).
The dark elves aren't tolkienesk either. They are from AD&D like many
other monsters in Angband (Coloured Dragons e.g). The descriptions of
dark elves given in 2.7.8 showed that clearly. Is that why these
description vanished?
> Also,what about adding some more races of Orks,esp. power-
> ful ones deeper in the pits? Morgoth's and Sauron's armies
> were mainly orcs,and they must've been pretty good at fighting.
They were pretty numerous before all. And they are already strong
fighters. An Uruk or Orc captain is about as strong as a hardend
warrior. After all, angband character *can not* be measured in terms
of Tolkien. No men nor elf can ever hope to kill Morgoth, according to
the Silmarillion.
Muzz
--
___ Frank Muzzulini Kaiserstr. 1 76131 Karlsruhe mu...@pond.sub.org
<*,*> ... until the colour of a man skin is of no more
[`-'] significance than the colour of his eyes ... Bob Marley (War)
-"-"-
Russ Allbery
From the rec.arts.books.tolkien FAQ:
1) What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins?
They are different names for the same race of creatures. Of the
two, "Orc" is the correct one. This has been a matter of widespread
debate and misunderstanding, mostly resulting from the usage in _The
Hobbit_ (Tolkien had changed his mind about it by LotR but the confusion
in the earlier book was made worse by inconsistant backwards
modifications). There are a couple of statements in _The Hobbit_ which,
if taken literally, suggest that Orcs are a subset of goblins. If we
are to believe the indications from all other areas of Tolkien's
writing, this is not correct. These are: some fairly clear statements
in letters, the evolution of his standard terminology (see next
paragraph), and the actual usage in LotR, all of which suggest that
"Orc" was the true name of the race. (The pedigrees in _Tolkien: The
Illustrated Encyclopedia_ are thoroughly innaccurate and undependable.)
What happened was this. The creatures so referred to were invented
along with the rest of Tolkien's subcreation during the writing of the
Book of Lost Tales (the "pre-Silmarillion"). His usage in the early
writing is somewhat varied but the movement is away from "goblin" and
towards "orc". It was part of a general trend away from the terminology
of traditional folklore (he felt that the familiar words would call up
the wrong associations in the readers' minds, since his creations were
quite different in specific ways). For the same general reasons he
began calling the Deep Elves "Noldor" rather than "Gnomes", and avoided
"Faerie" altogether. (On the other hand, he was stuck with "Wizards",
an "imperfect" translation of Istari ('the Wise'), "Elves", and
"Dwarves"; he did say once that he would have preferred "dwarrow",
which, so he said, was more historically and linguistically correct, if
he'd thought of it in time ...)
In _The Hobbit_, which originally was unconnected with the
Silmarillion, he used the familiar term "goblin" for the benefit of
modern readers. By the time of LotR, however, he'd decided that
"goblin" wouldn't do -- Orcs were not storybook goblins (see above).
(No doubt he also felt that "goblin", being Romance-derived, had no
place in a work based so much on Anglo-Saxon and Northern traditions in
general.) Thus, in LotR, the proper name of the race is "Orcs" (capital
"O"), and that name is found in the index along with Ents, Men, etc.,
while "goblin" is not in the index at all. There are a handful of
examples of "goblin" being used (always with a small "g") but it seems
in these cases to be a kind of slang for Orcs.
Tolkien's explanation inside the story was that the "true" name of
the creatures was Orc (an anglicized version of Sindarin *Orch* ,
pl. *Yrch*). As the "translator" of the ancient manuscripts, he
"substituted" "Goblin" for "Orch" when he translated Bilbo's diary, but
for The Red Book he reverted to a form of the ancient word.
[The actual source of the word "orc" is Beowulf: "orc-nass",
translated as "death-corpses". It has nothing to do with cetaceans.]
Russ Allbery
Frank Muzzulini <mu...@albatross.pond.sub.org> writes:
> They were pretty numerous before all. And they are already strong
> fighters. An Uruk or Orc captain is about as strong as a hardend
> warrior. After all, angband character *can not* be measured in terms of
> Tolkien. No men nor elf can ever hope to kill Morgoth, according to the
> Silmarillion.
Oh, yeah, there's no hope of total Tolkien accuracy, as would be expected.
No one short of one of the Valar could hope to defeat Morgoth, and in the
Sil it took the combined might of all of the Valar. (Keep in mind that
Morgoth is essentially Tolkien's equivalent of Lucifer / Satan.) But that
doesn't stop people like me from wanting to shuffle things around a bit to
make them a bit closer. :)
(Here's another one that will probably never change but that's always
bothered me -- Ungoliant in Tolkien is *way* more powerful than Sauron.
She represented the ultimate in non-thinking evil creatures in the Sil,
she consumed the Two Trees, and she fought Morgoth himself essentially to
a stand-still. She's no where *NEAR* powerful enough in Angband, and
should be a *LOT* deeper than she is. Having Draugluin and Gothmog, let
alone Lungorthin, Murazor, and the *Mouth* of all people, more powerful
than Ungoliant is absurd.)
Joseph William Dixon
D.J. Schreffler (boo...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: > the game is sort of like having both goblins and orcs (there are no
: > goblins in Tolkien, and therefore no goblins in Angband -- "goblin" is a
: > mistaken term for orc).
: Minor nitpick....IIRC, Bilbo and company get captured by goblins in the
: Hobbit.
I look at it this way: Orc (Orch/Uruk) is the proper name for the race,
BUT the inhabitants of Eriador/Arnor [where the Shire is located],
especially the Hobbits, use different names for the different sub-races -
goblin for the inhabitants of the Misty Mountains (and its surrounds),
hobgoblin for the Orcs from the far north, and orc for the rest. [yes, all
3 terms were used in The Hobbit]
/-----------------------------------------------------------------\
| "Chef of Chicanery, your buns are mine!" | aa...@chebucto.ns.ca |
| [The Tick vs. The Breadmaster] | Gumby | Team AMIGA |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------/
Jonathan L. Ellis
>(Here's another one that will probably never change but that's always
>bothered me -- Ungoliant in Tolkien is *way* more powerful than Sauron.
>She represented the ultimate in non-thinking evil creatures in the Sil,
>she consumed the Two Trees, and she fought Morgoth himself essentially to
>a stand-still. She's no where *NEAR* powerful enough in Angband, and
>should be a *LOT* deeper than she is. Having Draugluin and Gothmog, let
>alone Lungorthin, Murazor, and the *Mouth* of all people, more powerful
>than Ungoliant is absurd.)
Not too absurd in the case of the Balrogs. It was, after all, Gothmog who came
to Morgoth's rescue and defeated her when Ungoliant turned against him: and,
remember, he had been very much weakened by using so much of his power, and
she was much stronger than normal owing to having drunk of the light of the
Two Trees.
Jonathan Ellis.
Chris Kern
ssj...@netcom.com (Stephen Lee) wrote:
>It's possible to go on and on. I've been thinking of starting a project
>to make a brand new monster list, but this is such a staggering effort
>(even with lots of people working together)
I think a mailing list is a good idea. I will gladly participate in
this effort.
-Chris
Remove "junkmail" in my return address to reply.
Matt Craighead
Stephen Lee wrote:
>
> In article <m3g1u53...@windlord.Stanford.EDU>,
> Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote:
> >this group some time back due to lack of time, I was one of the proponents
> >of an overhaul in some of the monsters to get rid of some of the more
> >dramatically non-Tolkien beasts. This is *not* the same as creating a
> >Tolkien-only Angband -- we had some discussions about that, and while I
> >still think it would be an interesting variant, it would change the entire
> >shape of the game so dramatically that it could never be done in the main
> >development line.
>
> Well, actually, the regular monster list could use an overhaul too (do
> to make a brand new monster list, but this is such a staggering effort
> unless there's a lot of interest, particularly on the part of Ben or a
> variant maintainer to include it in a release, since I don't want such
> effort to not be playable.
>
> What do people think?
Ummm... for those interested in this... here's a blast from the past.
Big, but WELL worth reading. I don't agree with ALL of it, but it is
very, very interesting. Message size -> Netscape acting funny, so I
will follow up again.
> 220 20212 <44tbl5$4...@alamo.cs.utsa.edu> article
> Path: ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ringer.cs.utsa.edu!not-for-mail
> From: smch...@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Shawn McHorse)
> Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.angband
> Subject: Proposal for changes in the Unique Monsters of Angband [LONG]
> Date: 4 Oct 1995 02:04:05 -0500
> Organization: The University of Texas at San Antonio
> Lines: 643
> Message-ID: <44tbl5$4...@alamo.cs.utsa.edu>
> References: <44taks$4...@alamo.cs.utsa.edu>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: alamo.cs.utsa.edu
>
> Uniques I Believe Should Be Removed
> -----------------------------------
>
> Nar, the Dwarf [ This requires a bit of explanation. I
> actually looked up every unique in Angband to see exactly what they did
> to deserve my sword. Nar appears only in the Appendix to the Lord of the
> Rings as Thror's companion when he leaves his son Thrain II. Nar begged
> Thror not to enter Moria, but Thror ignored him. Nar waited near the
> entrance for a few days to see if Thror would return, until Thror's body
> was thrown out by Azog. The only reason I can possibly think of for Nar's
> inclusion as a unique is than the message he bore back to Thrain of Thror's
> death and mutilation by Azog is what caused the War of the Dwarves and the
> Orcs. But Nar himself did nothing wrong that I can see. I'm still looking
> for a truly evil dwarf to replace him. ]
>
> Fundin Bluecloak [ This also requires a bit less explanation.
> Fundin appears in Tolkien as the father of Balin and Dwalin. He was slain
> in the Battle of Azanulbizar. This is stated in the Appendix, although he
> is mentioned in the FotR in the context of "Balin son of Fundin". Nowhere do
> I see a blue cloak mentioned, or a reason as to why we should be killing him.
> I'm still looking for a truly evil dwarf to replace him. ]
>
> Uvatha the Horseman [The only named Ringwraith is Khamul, and my
> imagination ran out of fake titles and names
> to give to Nazgul (like "The Messenger of
> Khamul"). If you can find a singled out
> Nazgul somewhere and can come up with a good
> title, tell me and it can replace Uvatha.]
>
> Uriel, Angel of Fire [Christian Mythology. I personally feel that
> Azriel, Angel of Death Angels should be removed completely. They
> Gabriel, the Messenger could be replaced by Maiar, but I do not like
> the idea of fighting Maiar terribly much.]
>
> The Queen Ant ["She's upset because you hurt her children."
> Seems rather out-of-place to me.]
> Medusa, the Gorgon [Greek Mythology]
> Dwar, Dog Lord of Waw [Lord of what?!?! Yeah right.]
> Baphomet the Minotaur Lord [Greek Mythology]
> Harowen the Black Hand [No Harowen in Tolkien that I know of. More
> importantly, 'The Black Hand' is generally
> reserved as an epithet for Sauron.]
> The Phoenix [Greek Mythology]
> The Lernean Hydra [Greek Mythology]
> Cerebrus, Guardian of Hades [Greek Mythology. There is no "Hades" in
> Tolkien, anyway.]
>
>
>
> Uniques That Could Easily Stay, But Which I Have Not Found In Tolkien
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Mughash the Kobold Lord [There are no Kobolds in Tolkien]
> Lagduf, the Snaga [`Snaga' is an Orcish name give to Lesser
> Orcs, especially by Uruk-hai. No Snaga
> that I know of were ever given names.
> Other than Snaga...:-> Snaga the Snaga
> just doesn't have a good ring to it...]
> Orfax, Son of Boldor [There are no Yeeks in Tolkien]
> Boldor, King of the Yeeks [Still no Yeeks in Tolkien]
> Draebor, the Imp [Not sure what an Imp would correspond to
> in Tolkien, apart from Tom Bombadil...:-) ]
>
> Vargo, Tyrant of Fire [All these named elementals seem to come from
> Waldern, King of Water somewhere. I just have no idea where, since
> Quaker, Master of Earth it does not seem to be Tolkien.]
> Ariel, Queen of Air
>
> Rogrog the Black Troll
> Kavlax the Many-Headed
> Adunaphel the Quiet
> Akhorahil the Blind
> Ren the Unclean
> Itangast the Fire Drake
> Tselakus, the Dreadlord [Never heard of a Dreadlord in Tolkien]
> Tiamat, Celestial Dragon of Evil
> Vecna, the Emperor Lich [No Lichs in Tolkien]
> Omarax the Eye Tyrant [Don't believe Tolkien has floating eyes]
> The Emperor Quylthulg [Quylthulg in Tolkien? Sure... ]
> Qlzqqlzuup, the Lord of Flesh [Quylthulg in Tolkien? Yeah right. ]
> Pazuzu, Lord of Air
> Cantoras, the Skeletal Lord [No druj in Tolkien either]
> The Tarrasque
> Feagwath the Undead Sorcerer
>
>
>
> New uniques created by renaming old ones
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Bill Ferny, Agent of Saruman [Human, Male, Evil]
>
> [Replacing "Farmer Maggot". Farmer Maggot was a good and kind hobbit.]
>
> A swarthy man of Bree. He has heavy black brows and dark scornful
> eyes; his large mouth is curled in a sneer. He sells anything to
> anybody and enjoys making mischief for his personal amusement.
>
>
> Lotho Sackville-Baggins, Betrayer of the Shire [Hobbit, Male, Evil]
>
> [Replacing "Bullroarer the Hobbit". Bullroarer was a good hobbit, and is
> actually recorded in Tolkien as the slayer of Golfimbul.]
>
> The `Chief Shiriff' of Bag End. Using money obtained from Isengard and
> the sale of pipe-weed, he bought up much property in the Shire and supported
> the ruffians known as `The Chief's Men'. After imprisoning Will Whitfoot,
> the rightful Mayor of the Shire, Lotho took over and began industrializing
> and regimenting life in the Shire.
>
>
> Durin's Bane, the Balrog of Khazad-dum [Balrog, Evil, Demon]
>
> [Replacing "Muar, the Balrog". I find no 'Muar' in Tolkien.]
>
> A huge Balrog surrounded by raging pillars of fire, he is indeed a terrible
> opponent. The dark figure holds in its right hand a sword like a stabbing
> tongue of fire and a flaming whip of many thongs in its left. This Balrog
> was entombed beneath Baranzibar for many years until the dwarves of Khazad-
> dum, while extending their mithril-mine, roused it from its sleep. It is
> known as Durin's Bane, the slayer of Durin VI, Lord of Moria. Your death
> is at hand.
>
>
> Ulbandi, the Ogre Chieftain [Ogre, Female, Evil]
>
> [Replacing "Lokkak, the Ogre Chieftain". I find no Ogres at all in Tolkien,
> except in his pre-Hobbit work "The Book of Lost Tales".]
>
> <Insert description of a fierce Ogress>
>
> { Tolkien does not generally use the term 'Ogre' at all, except in his pre-
> Hobbit works (e.g. The Book of Lost Tales). I find exactly one named Ogre
> there. She is given by the name of Ulbandi, and is then revised to the
> name Fluithuin. Due to the lack of named Ogres in Tolkien, I am using the
> two names to signify different monsters. It may interest some to know that
> Gothmog the Balrog is given in The Book of Lost Tales as the son of Melko
> and Fluithuin the Ogress. This obviously changed later...:-> }
>
>
> The Messenger of Khamul [Nazgul, Male, Evil, Undead]
>
> [Replacing "Ji Indur Dawndeath". Khamul is the only named Nazgul.]
>
> Once a powerful King among Men, he was enslaved by one of the Nine Rings
> and became one of the chief servants of Sauron. This Ringwraith serves
> in Dol Goldur as the messenger of Khamul the Shadow of the East.
>
>
> Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul [Nazgul, Male, Evil, Undead]
>
> [Replacing "Hoarmurath of Dir". Khamul is the only named Nazgul.]
>
> This Ringwraith was once a mighty King among Men before being enslaved
> by one of the Nine Rings. Now a servant of Sauron, he serves as the
> lieutenant of Minas Morgul under the Lord of the Nazgul.
>
> { Note: It is not explicitly stated by Tolkien that Gothmog, Lieutenant
> of Minas Morgul was one of the Nazgul. But since the Witch-king was
> the Chief of Minas Morgul, it seems a reasonable conclusion that his
> Lieutenant was another Nazgul. }
>
>
> Khamul the Shadow of the East [Nazgul, Male, Evil, Undead]
>
> [Replacing "Khamul the Easterling". Personally, I think that
> "The Shadow of the East" has a much more sinister ring to it.
> Plus there are other non-Ringwraiths with the same title, such
> as "Brodda the Easterling".]
>
> Once a great warrior-King of the East, the Black Easterling is second
> in command of the fell Nazgul. His great power and skill in combat is
> superseded only by that of the Lord of Morgul himself.
>
>
> The Lord of the Nazgul [Nazgul, Male, Evil, Undead]
>
> [Replacing "Murazor, the Witch-King of Angmar". He was known by a great
> many titles, but he was only the Witch-King of Angmar for a specific
> period of time. He was always "The Lord of the Nazgul". And I find no
> references in Tolkien to the name of "Murazor". ]
>
> The Lord of Morgul and the mightiest of Sauron's servants. Originally a
> King and sorcerer, he was enslaved by Sauron when he received the greatest
> of the Nine Rings. A fell being of devastating power, his spells are lethal
> and his combat blows crushingly hard. It is said that he is fated never to
> fall by the hand of Man.
>
>
> Tevildo, Prince of Cats [Cat, Male, Evil]
>
> [Replacing "The Cat Lord", who is obviously not in Tolkien]
>
> Master of all things feline and mighty servant of Morgoth. A great cat,
> coal-black and evil to look upon. His eyes are long and very narrow and
> slanted, and gleam both red and green. His great grey whiskers are as
> stout and sharp as needles. His purr is like the roll of drums and his
> growl like thunder.
>
> { Tevildo's character in `The Tale of Tinuviel' is transformed to Thu
> in the `Lay of Leithian' and then later to Sauron. So Sauron was
> originally a cat (sort of). ROFLASTC (all puns intended). }
>
>
>
> Possible New Tolkien-based Uniques
> ----------------------------------
>
> Old Man Willow [Natural, Evil]
>
> A huge willow-tree, old and hoary. It looks enormous, its sprawling branches
> going up like reaching arms with many long-fingered hands, its knotted and
> twisted trunk gaping in wide fissures that creak faintly as the bough moves.
> Old Man Willow is the mightiest tree of his kind ever recorded, for he is
> black-hearted, limb-lithe, and filled with a great enchanting power of song.
>
>
> The Watcher of Cirith Ungol [Golem, Evil]
>
> It looks like a great figure seated upon a throne, with three joined bodies
> and three vulture-like heads. It seems to be carved out of huge blocks of
> stone, immovable, and yet strangely aware of your presence. The black stones
> of its eyes glitter with its dreadful will. Visible or invisible, none shall
> pass by this guardian.
>
>
> The Watcher in the Water [Evil]
>
> A huge many-tentacled creature, this is the Kraken of Moria. Its tentacles
> are luminous and slimy green, and an inky stench comes from its fowl bulk.
> It was accidentally released from its prison by the Dwarves when Durin's
> Bane, the Balrog of Khazad-dum, was awakened.
>
>
> Wolf, Farmer Maggot's dog [Dog]
>
> A rather vicious dog belonging to Farmer Maggot. It thinks you are stealing
> mushrooms.
>
>
> Harry Goatleaf, Gatekeeper of Bree [Human, Male]
>
> The suspicious and gruff keeper of the West-gate of Bree. He betrayed
> his people by letting Saruman's thugs into the city.
>
>
> Ted Sandyman the Miller [Hobbit, Male]
>
> A surly grimy-faced and black-handed hobbit. He helped Lotho Sackville-
> Baggins oust his father the Miller and tear down his mill in order to put
> up a noisy and polluting new mill.
>
> { I really don't like this description.
> Can anyone come up with a better one? }
>
>
> The Dunlending Agent of the Nazgul [Half-Orc, Male, Evil]
>
> A squint-eyed southerner working with Bill Ferny as a spy in Bree. He is
> an outlaw driven from Dunland, where many said that he had orc-blood in him.
> Originally a servant of Saruman in the Shire, he betrayed his master when
> interrogated on the road by the Lord of the Nazgul. He was then sent to Bree
> as a spy in their service.
>
>
> Alatar the Blue [Istari, Male]
>
> Sent by Orome as one of the five Istari sent to Middle-earth by the Valar.
> A powerful wizard, he traveled to the East with Saruman the White and his
> companion Pallando the Blue. There he was ensnared by Sauron and became one
> of his servants, never returning to the West again.
>
>
> Pallando the Blue [Istari, Male]
>
> Sent by Orome as one of the five Istari sent to Middle-earth by the Valar.
> A powerful wizard, he traveled to the East with Saruman the White and his
> companion Alatar the Blue. There he was ensnared by Sauron and became one
> of his servants, never returning to the West again.
>
>
> Glorund, the Worm of Greed [Dragon, Male, Evil]
>
> A powerful golden dragon of Morgoth. One of the Uroloki, he is a
> fire-drake of immense size and power.
>
> { "Glorund" is merely an earlier form of the name "Glaurung", and was
> used in the title of the unfinished poem `Turin Son of Hurin & Glorund
> the Dragon'. Ironically, the poem never got to the part of the story
> with Glorund in it. The name was also used in the even earlier version
> of the story of Turin `Turambar and the Foaloke' as told in The Book of
> Lost Tales. I'm using the name simply because there are not very many
> named Dragons in Tolkien. }
>
>
> Orgof the Elf [Elf, Male]
>
> A Noldorin Elf of Doriath, he is one of the chief counselors of Thingol.
> An insulting and bitter Elf, his pride often outruns his prowess in arms.
> His barbed wit and loose tongue have earned him more than his share of
> enemies.
>
> { NOTE: The "Orgof" of the poem `Turin Son of Hurin & Glorund the Dragon'
> becomes "Saeros" in the `Narn I Hin Hurin'. The tale as related in the
> poem is quite different from the Narn, so I feel it is warranted to
> included uniques from both tales. }
>
>
> Blodrin the Traitor [Elf, Male, Evil]
>
> Son of Bor, and an Elf from Turin's Band of Outlaws. He lusts only for
> blood and gold, caring nothing about those he robs of riches and life.
> He was kidnapped by the Dwarves as a child, and raised by them to be wholly
> un-Elven, save in blood and birth. He betrayed Turin by going to the Orcs
> and revealing his Band's location in exchange for gold.
>
> { NOTE: Blodrin's role in the poem `Turin Son of Hurin & Glorund the
> Dragon' is essentially the same as Mim's role in the `Narn I Hin Hurin'.
> The details are different in almost every respect, though. }
>
>
> Boldog, the Orc Captain [Orc, Male, Evil]
>
> <Insert description of a fierce Orc> Morgoth has charged him with the task
> of abducting Luthien from Doriath.
>
> { Boldog is mentioned but a few times in the `Lay of Leithian' as being the
> leader of a raid on Doriath in an attempt to abduct Luthien. No
> description was given there. }
>
>
> Gilim, the Giant of Eruman [Giant, Male, Evil]
>
> A fifty foot tall humanoid that shakes the very ground you stand on. He
> looks down on your pathetic figure with hate and disdain.
>
> { Gilim is named only in passing in Luthien's lengthening spell in the `Lay
> of Leithian'. Any description filled in here would be equally valid. }
>
>
> Gorgol the Butcher [Orc, Male, Evil]
>
> <Insert description of a fierce Orc>
>
> { Gorgol is named only in passing as being slain by Beren in the `Lay of
> Leithian'. }
>
>
> Oikeroi, Bodyguard of Tevildo [Cat, Male, Evil]
>
> A fierce and warlike cat, serving as a bodyguard of Tevildo. This giant
> cat looks down upon you with disdain.
>
>
> Umuiyan, Doorkeeper of Tevildo [Cat, Male, Evil]
>
> A giant cat, and servant of Tevildo. His yellow eyes look upon you with a
> baleful stare.
>
>
> Baldor the Hapless [Human, Male, Undead]
>
> The eldest son of Brego, second King of Rohan. At the feast held to
> celebrate the completion of Meduseld, he made a rash vow to tread the
> Paths of the Dead. There he died and rose as one of the Dead, for the
> Paths are closed to all save the Dead and the heirs of Isildur. His
> father Brego's death was a direct result of Baldor's rash deed.
>
> { I made the leap of making Baldor undead. It doesn't seem too terrible
> a change from Tolkien's words, since he did die on the Paths of the Dead. }
>
>
> Freca of Rohan [Human, Male]
>
> An insolent and contemptuous chieftain of Rohan, and a man of mixed Rohirric
> and Dunlending blood. Although distrusted by the King, he is both very rich
> and powerful due to his large land holdings near the Adorn.
>
>
> Wulf, Invader of Rohan [Human, Male, Evil]
>
> The son of Freca and a renegade King of Rohan. He is of mixed Rohirric and
> Dunlending blood, and invaded Rohan with the aid of other enemies of the
> Mark, including many Dunlendings. There he slayed King Helm's son Haleth
> before the very doors of the Golden Hall.
>
>
> Ar-Adunakhor, Lord of the West [Human, Male, Evil]
>
> The twentieth King of Numenor. He is the first King of Numenor to take
> the sceptre with a title in the Adunaic tongue. He has completely forbidden
> the usage of Elven-tongues in his hearing. His title is held by the Faithful
> to be blasphemous, for it it is generally used to name one of the great
> Valar only, Manwe especially.
>
>
> Ar-Gimilzor of Numenor [Human, Male, Evil]
>
> The twenty-third King of Numenor. He married Inzilbeth of Adunie despite
> her wishes; the two sons of their unhappy marriage are Tar-Palantir and
> Gimilkhad. Ar-Gimilzor is a great enemy of the Faithful and has utterly
> forbidden the use of Eldarin tongues. Nor does he permit any of the Eldar
> to come to the shores of Numenor, punishing those who welcome them. He
> reveres nothing and has neglected both the White Tree Nimloth and the Hallow
> of Eru.
>
>
> Gimilkhad of Numenor [Human, Male, Evil]
>
> He is the son of Ar-Gimilzor and brother to Tar-Palantir, the twenty-fourth
> King of Numenor. A strong, harsh, and ungentle man, he became the leader of
> the King's Men when his brother Tar-Palantir came into power. He opposes his
> brother the King at every turn, as much as he dares in the open and much more
> in secret.
>
>
> Ar-Pharazon the Golden [Human, Male, Evil]
>
> The twenty-fifth King of Numenor. He came into power by taking Queen Miriel
> as his wife against her will and against the laws of Numenor, for she is the
> daughter of his father's brother. He then seized her sceptre into his own
> hand and declared himself King. Although he once "defeated" Sauron and took
> him as hostage, Sauron eventually became his chief councillor. Ar-Pharazon
> was gradually corrupted by the words of Sauron, who became the true ruler of
> Numenor. Ar-Pharazon convinced his people to worship Morgoth and burned down
> the White Tree Nimloth at Sauron's bidding.
>
>
> Queen Beruthiel [Human, Female, Evil]
>
> The nefarious, solitary, and loveless Queen of Tarannon Falastar, twelfth
> King of Gondor. She hates all making, colors, and elaborate adornment,
> wearing only black and silver. She has nine black cats and one white, her
> slaves with whom she converses. She sets them to discover all the dark
> secrets, so that she may know those things that men wish to keep most hidden.
>
>
> The White Cat of Queen Beruthiel [Cat, Female, Evil]
>
> The most powerful of the cats of Queen Beruthiel. This cat is set by her
> to spy upon the nine black cats, tormenting them as well.
>
>
> Fluithuin the Ogress, Consort of Morgoth [Ogre, Female, Evil]
>
> <Insert description of a fierce Ogress, mentioning that she and Morgoth
> have relations together>
>
>
> Feanor, Leader of the Kinslaying [Elf, Male, Evil]
>
> The eldest son of Finwe, half-brother of Fingolfin and Finarfin. Feanor
> is the mightiest of the Noldor and in many ways the greatest of the Children
> of Iluvatar, especially in skill of mind and hands. Unfortunately, Feanor
> is as quick to pride, jealousy, and anger as to invention. Feanor grew
> overly fond of his work and when the Two Trees were poisoned, he refused to
> give up the Silmarils which preserved their light. After Morgoth's murder of
> Finwe and theft of the Silmarils, he swore the terrible Oath of Feanor with
> his seven sons. In his haste and pride he instigated the Kinslaying at
> Alqualonde, the first slaying of Elf by Elf. He vows never to rest until the
> Silmarils are back in his hands.
>
>
> Maedhros the Tall, Eldest Son of Feanor [Elf, Male]
>
> The eldest son of Feanor, creator of the Silmarils. Maedhros swore the
> terrible Oath of Feanor with the rest of his brothers and joined the revolt
> of the Noldor. More temperate than his father, he was a patient ruler and
> strong warrior for many years. But he remained driven by the Oath and
> participated in the sacking of Doriath and the murders of Dior and Nimloth
> in the Thousand Caves, the second slaying of Elf by Elf. Maedhros still
> vows never to rest until all three Silmarils are in the hands of his family.
>
>
> Maglor the Singer, Son of Feanor [Elf, Male]
>
> The second son of Feanor, creator of the Silmarils. Maglor swore the
> terrible Oath of Feanor with the rest of his brothers and joined the revolt
> of the Noldor. More temperate than most of his brothers, he nevertheless
> joined them in the invasion of Doriath and the murders of Dior and Nimloth.
> This was the second slaying of Elf by Elf. Maglor still vows never to rest
> until all three Silmarils are in the hands of his family.
>
>
> Celegorm the Fair, Son of Feanor [Elf, Male, Evil]
>
> The third son of Feanor, creator of the Silmarils. Celegorm swore the
> terrible Oath of Feanor with the rest of his brothers and joined the revolt
> of the Noldor. Like his brothers, Celegorm is overly proud and acts more by
> force than deceit. When Finrod desired to aid Beren in the Quest of the
> SIlmaril, Celegorm and his brother Curufin vowed their Oaths anew. At
> Celegorm's instigation, he and the rest of his brothers invaded Doriath and
> murdered Dior and Nimloth in a vain attempt to regain a Silmaril. This was
> the second slaying of Elf by Elf. Celegorm still vows never to rest until
> all three Silmarils are in the hands of his family.
>
>
> Caranthir the Dark, Son of Feanor [Elf, Male, Evil]
>
> The fourth son of Feanor, creator of the Silmarils. Caranthir swore the
> terrible Oath of Feanor with the rest of his brothers and joined the revolt
> of the Noldor. Caranthir is very haughty, the harshest and most quick to
> anger of the sons of Feanor. He joined the rest of his brothers in the
> invasion of Doriath and murders of Dior and Nimloth, the second slaying of
> Elf by Elf. Caranthir still vows never to rest until all three Silmarils
> are in the hands of his family.
>
>
> Curufin the Crafty, Son of Feanor [Elf, Male, Evil]
>
> The fifth son of Feanor, creator of the Silmarils. Curufin swore the
> terrible Oath of Feanor with the rest of his brothers and joined the revolt
> of the Noldor. Of the sons of Feanor, Curufin inherited most of his father's
> skill, but was also cunning and treacherous. When Finrod desired to aid
> Beren in the Quest of the Silmaril, Curufin and his brother Celegorm vowed
> their Oaths anew. He joined th rest of his brothers in the invasion of
> Doriath and murder of Dior, the second slaying of Elf by Elf. Curufin still
> vows never to rest until all three Silmarils are in the hands of his family.
>
>
> Amrod, Son of Feanor [Elf, Male]
>
> The twin brother of Amras and son of Feanor, creator of the Silmarils. Amrod
> swore the terrible Oath of Feanor with the rest of his brothers and joined
> the revolt of the Noldor. He joined the rest of his brothers in the attempt
> to recover a Silmaril by force from Elwing at the Havens of Sirion. He is
> alike to his twin brother in both appearance and temperament. Amrod still
> vows never to rest until all three Silmarils are in the hands of his family.
>
>
> Amras, Son of Feanor [Elf, Male]
>
> The twin brother of Amrod and son of Feanor, creator of the Silmarils. Amras
> swore the terrible Oath of Feanor with the rest of his brothers and joined
> the revolt of the Noldor. He joined the rest of his brothers in the attempt
> to recover a Silmaril by force from Elwing at the Havens of Sirion. He is
> alike to his twin brother in both appearance and temperament. Amras still
> vows never to rest until all three Silmarils are in the hands of his family.
>
>
> Eol, the Dark Elf [Elf, Male, Evil]
>
> An Elf of the Teleri, he is of the kin of Thingol. He lives in the deep
> shadow of Nan Elmoth, where the trees are so tall and dark that the sun
> never comes. There he dwells, loving the night and the twilight under the
> stars. He learned his craft from his friends the Dwarves and is a great
> smith, being the inventor of the metal galvorn, and forger of the swords
> Anglachel and Anguirel. He took his wife Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, the White
> Lady of Gondolin, by means of enchantment, and she bore him his son Maeglin.
> When his wife and son fled him to Gondolin he followed and attempted to
> take the life of his son with a poisoned javelin. But his wife Aredhel
> stepped in front of the javelin, and died in his stead.
>
>
> Maeglin, Betrayer of Gondolin [Elf, Male]
>
> The son of Eol the Dark Elf and Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, the White Lady of
> Gondolin. Maeglin `Sharp Glance' is a tall and dark-haired Elf, resembling
> in face and form his kindred the Noldor. He has piercing dark eyes and
> white skin. His thought can read the deepest secrets of hearts beyond the
> mist of words. He was taken prisoner by Orcs beyond the hills of Gondolin,
> and was brought before Morgoth in Angband. Due to his unreturned love for
> Idril and his jealous hatred of Tuor, Maeglin betrayed the location of the
> fair city of Gondolin as well as the ways by which it might be found and
> assailed.
>
>
> Herumor, the Black Numenorean [Human, Male, Evil]
>
> A renegade Numenorean and ally of Sauron. He was corrupted by Sauron's many
> gifts and promises of great power. He rose to become a great lord among the
> Haradrim, a great and cruel people who dwell in the wide lands south of
> Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin.
>
>
> Fuinur, the Black Numenorean [Human, Male, Evil]
>
> A renegade Numenorean and ally of Sauron. He was corrupted by Sauron's many
> gifts and promises of great power. He rose to become a great lord among the
> Haradrim, a great and cruel people who dwell in the wide lands south of
> Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin.
>
>
>
> Tolkien References
> ------------------
>
> Old Man Willow - Fellowship of the Ring
> The Watcher of Cirith Ungol - Return of the King
> The Watcher in the Water - Fellowship of the Ring
> Durin's Bane, the Balrog of Khazad-dum - Fellowship of the Ring, Two Towers
> Ulbandi, the Ogre Chieftain - The Book of Lost Tales, Part II (pg. 216)
> Lotho Sackville-Baggins - Fellowship of the Ring, Return of the King
> Bill Ferny - Fellowship of the Ring, Return of the King
> Harry Goatleaf - Fellowship of the Ring, Return of the King
> Ted Sandyman - Fellowship of the Ring, Return of the King
> The Dunlending Agent of the Nazgul - Fellowship of the Ring (as the squint-
> eyed southerner at the Inn in Bree), and `The Hunt for the Ring' from
> Unfinished Tales.
> The Messenger of Khamul - `The Hunt for the Ring'
> Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul - Return of the King
> Khamul the Shadow of the East - `The Hunt for the Ring'
> The Lord of the Nazgul - The Lord of the Rings
> Alatar the Blue - `The Istari' from Unfinished Tales
> Pallando the Blue - `The Istari'
> Glorund, the Worm of Greed - The poem `Turin Son of Hurin & Glorund the Dragon'
> in The Lays of Beleriand, `Turambar and the Foaloke' in The Book of Lost
> Tales
> Orgof the Elf - `Turin Son of Hurin & Glorund the Dragon'
> Blodrin the Traitor - `Turin Son of Hurin & Glorund the Dragon'
> Boldog, the Orc Captain - `Lay of Leithian' in The Lays of Beleriand
> Gilim, the Giant of Eruman - `Lay of Leithian'
> Gorgol the Butcher - `Lay of Leithian'
> Tevildo, Prince of Cats - `The Tale of Tinuviel' in The Book of Lost Tales
> Oikeroi, Bodyguard of Tevildo - `The Tale of Tinuviel'
> Umuiyan, Doorkeeper of Tevildo - `The Tale of Tinuviel'
> Baldor the Hapless - Return of the King, Lord of the Rings Appendix
> Freca of Rohan - Lord of the Rings Appendix
> Wulf, Invader of Rohan - Lord of the Rings Appendix
> Fengel of Rohan - Lord of the Rings Appendix
> Ar-Adunakhor, Lord of the West - `Akallabeth' in the Silmarillion,
> `The Line of Elros' in Unfinished Tales, Lord of the Rings Appendix
> Ar-Gimilzor, the Black Numenorean - Akallabeth, The Line of Elros, Appendix
> Gimilkhad, the Black Numenorean - Akallabeth, The Line of Elros, Appendix
> Ar-Pharazon the Golden - Akallabeth, The Line of Elros, Appendix
> Queen Beruthiel - A footnote to `The Istari' in Unfinished Tales
> The White Cat of Queen Beruthiel - A footnote to `The Istari' essay
> Fluithuin the Ogress, Consort of Morgoth - The Book of Lost Tales, Part II
> (pg. 216)
> Feanor, Leader of the Kinslaying - Quenta Silmarillion
> Maedhros the Tall, Eldest Son of Feanor - Quenta Silmarillion
> Maglor the Singer, Son of Feanor - Quenta Silmarillion
> Celegorm the Fair, Son of Feanor - Quenta Silmarillion
> Caranthir the Dark, Son of Feanor - Quenta Silmarillion
> Curufin the Crafty, Son of Feanor - Quenta Silmarillion
> Amrod, Son of Feanor - Quenta Silmarillion
> Amras, Son of Feanor - Quenta Silmarillion
> Eol, the Dark Elf - `Of Maeglin' in the Quenta Silmarillion
> Maeglin, Betrayer of Gondolin - `Of Maeglin' and `Of Tuor and the Fall of
> Gondolin' in the Quenta Silmarillion
> Herumor, the Black Numenorean - `Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'
> in the Silmarillion
> Fuinur, the Black Numenorean - `Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'
--
Matt Craighead
Utumno developer: http://www.citilink.com/~craighea/utumno/
Matt Craighead
Well, I'm all for it. In particular, I have wanted to replace the
monster list in Utumno for some time with an improved one. I am wholly
open to being part of such a project. See my other post, also.
Sorry to keep making posts referring to others... BUT... if that Utumno
user forum (which I am about to make a post about) ever happens, this
is a subject that I want to discuss.
Stephen Lee
Right. Here are my comments:
I'd rather not have a wave of "Tolkien purity" hit the monster list. WRT
the uniques, there is room for adding quite a few more without having to
remove many of the current ones. I think the only current *uniques* that
definitely should be removed are Bullroarer and the unique A's (along
with all of the other A's), and probably Vecna (the only TSR critter in
Angband whose name and basic identity were invented by TSR AFAIK).
I think that making a new *regular*-monster listing is much more pressing,
though. It's not as glamorous as adding uniques, but it just is
something that Should Be Done. There are just too many oddities in the
current list of regular monsters IMO.
As I mentioned, though, I'm hesitant to do much without a groundswell of
support and someplace to put this list when we're done.
Could anyone interested in making an effort to contribute to a new list
e-mail me (unless you've already posted expressing interest)? I'm not
sure how to even run a mailing list short of just Cc'ing everyone on the
list (there will probably be few enough people so that I can do that,
though).
In particular, I'd like the comments of Ben, or a major and current
variant maintainer like Greg.
Scorpius
Stephen Lee wrote in article ...
>In article <m3g1u53...@windlord.Stanford.EDU>,
>Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote:
Snip
>It's possible to go on and on. I've been thinking of starting a project
>to make a brand new monster list, but this is such a staggering effort
>(even with lots of people working together) that I'm hesitant to do so
>unless there's a lot of interest, particularly on the part of Ben or a
>variant maintainer to include it in a release, since I don't want such
>effort to not be playable.
>
>What do people think?
>
>--
>Stephen S. Lee (ssj...@netcom.com), prospective molecular biologist
>
>Note: this message has been protected from prying eyes by the application
>of two rounds of the ROT-13 encryption technique.
>
If there really is enough interest for a reworked monster list, and there
are enough suggestions, I'll be willing to use them in one of the
future versions of Quest Angband (At the moment I still have some
other things I want to put in first).
So please let me know.
Heino Vander Sanden
Heino.Van...@Ping.Be
From all the things I've lost,
I miss my mind the most.
Greg Wooledge
On Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:35:54 GMT, Stephen Lee <ssj...@netcom.com> wrote:
>I think that making a new *regular*-monster listing is much more pressing,
>though. It's not as glamorous as adding uniques, but it just is
>something that Should Be Done. There are just too many oddities in the
>current list of regular monsters IMO.
All too true. :-(
Ben has stated a few times in the past that eventually he wants to create
base monster types for all the uniques, so that uniques will just be
hyped-up, named instances of base monsters. For example, Rogrog the
Black Troll would be a heavy-duty version of a new "black troll" race.
I'd wait for Ben's comments and status report before proceeding too far
with this project.
>Could anyone interested in making an effort to contribute to a new list
>e-mail me (unless you've already posted expressing interest)?
I might contribute a little bit, but I think you and Matt (and maybe Ben)
will be the major players.
--
------------ Greg Wooledge -------------
------- wool...@kellnet.com -------
--- http://kellnet.com/wooledge/main.html ---
Matthew C Neumann
I like the idea of having to overcome both the forces of good and evil
to become the new master of Angband; how about adding an anti-Morgoth
who also needs to be slaughtered (Imagine running into both of them at
the same time; Ouch!)?
Matt Neumann