[All] Stats explained
Matthias Kluwe
I recently started playing ZAngband, but my "problem" applies to all
variants of Angband:
As I don't know the rule system of D&D, I don't know where and when my
character statistics take effect. While the levels 3-18 (this should be
3d6, which is commonly used by other RPGs as well) looks reasonable to
me, I do not understand the notation 18/xxx (xxx being any number).
Please point me anywhere to learn about this.
Regards,
Matthias
--
Matthias Kluwe
mkluwe at web dot de
Eytan Zweig
"Matthias Kluwe" <mkl...@informatik.uni-bremen.de> wrote in message
news:slrnaa37gg...@x26.informatik.uni-bremen.de...
> Hi!
>
> I recently started playing ZAngband, but my "problem" applies to all
> variants of Angband:
>
> As I don't know the rule system of D&D, I don't know where and when my
> character statistics take effect. While the levels 3-18 (this should be
> 3d6, which is commonly used by other RPGs as well) looks reasonable to
> me, I do not understand the notation 18/xxx (xxx being any number).
>
> Please point me anywhere to learn about this.
>
Well, there's not really much to learn about it except realize that a stat
will never reach 19 - instead, once you have 18/xxx, just ignore the 18 and
look only at the xxx as the improtant part of the stat.
xxx is a number between 1-220 (it can go higher, but above 220 it has no
additional effect). Meaningful values are 100 (which is the maximum a stat
without bonuses can reach by drinking potions of stat), 150 (which is, for
most stats, when the really useful ability levels begin), and 220, which is
the maximum. Most characters should try to get all stats (except maybe
charisma) to at least 18/150, by the time you reach the endgame, probably a
lot more.
I can't give you more specific advice because I'm unfamiliar with Zangband.
Oh, and the reason that you don't understand the system is because it
doesn't make any sense. In my own variant (EyAngband), I replaced it by a
system where stats simply go from 0-30.
Eytan
Matthias Kluwe
>
> "Matthias Kluwe" <mkl...@informatik.uni-bremen.de> wrote in message
> news:slrnaa37gg...@x26.informatik.uni-bremen.de...
>> variants of Angband:
>>
>> As I don't know the rule system of D&D, I don't know where and when my
>> character statistics take effect. While the levels 3-18 (this should be
>> 3d6, which is commonly used by other RPGs as well) looks reasonable to
>> me, I do not understand the notation 18/xxx (xxx being any number).
>
> will never reach 19 - instead, once you have 18/xxx, just ignore the 18 and
> look only at the xxx as the improtant part of the stat.
>
> xxx is a number between 1-220 (it can go higher, but above 220 it has no
> additional effect). Meaningful values are 100 (which is the maximum a stat
> without bonuses can reach by drinking potions of stat), 150 (which is, for
You mean, a plain "19" means the same as "18/100"? It would be
interesting to know how the exact calculations are done (without
browsing the source code, maybe); or is this considered as a "spoiler"?
The game machanics of Pencil&Paper games are known to the players in
great detail ...
> most stats, when the really useful ability levels begin), and 220, which is
> the maximum. Most characters should try to get all stats (except maybe
> charisma) to at least 18/150, by the time you reach the endgame, probably a
> lot more.
>
> I can't give you more specific advice because I'm unfamiliar with Zangband.
And I can't ask something more specific because I'm unfamiliar with
other variants. I thought these basics were the same in all the
Angands...
>
> Oh, and the reason that you don't understand the system is because it
> doesn't make any sense. In my own variant (EyAngband), I replaced it by a
> system where stats simply go from 0-30.
...before I have read this. Sounds quite reasonable but looses the
"normal distributed" character of the 3d6-range.
Takeshi Mogami
Read on-line help.
Stats is explained in the charattr.txt.
Mogami
Werner Baer
"Matthias Kluwe" <mkl...@informatik.uni-bremen.de> wrote ...
> >
> > Well, there's not really much to learn about it except realize that a stat
> > will never reach 19 - instead, once you have 18/xxx, just ignore the 18 and
> > look only at the xxx as the improtant part of the stat.
[snip]
> You mean, a plain "19" means the same as "18/100"?
In moria (the game before angband), the maximum for all stats was 18/100.
But this wasn't enough for angband, and they increased the range.
> It would be
> interesting to know how the exact calculations are done (without
> browsing the source code, maybe); or is this considered as a "spoiler"?
> The game machanics of Pencil&Paper games are known to the players in
> great detail ...
IMO this is basic game mechanics, not spoiler.
Especially the the table which lists bonus hit points for high constitution.
If you're interested, take a look at tables.c.
Werner.
David Grenier
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:08:35 +0200, Eytan Zweig wrote:
> You mean, a plain "19" means the same as "18/100"?
No, a 19 is equivalent to 18/010. Every point after the slash is equivalent
to one tenth of a full point. A 18/100 is equivalent to 28.
> It would be
> interesting to know how the exact calculations are done (without
> browsing the source code, maybe); or is this considered as a "spoiler"?
Which calculations? Source diving is the best way to find what you want,
naturally. Be careful though, as stats are stored internally as the sum of
both values: Displayed 17 = Internal 17, but Displayed 18/73 = Internal 91.
> The game machanics of Pencil&Paper games are known to the players in
> great detail ...
Not always true. In "Paranoia" the rules are considered treasonous material
and knowing them is grounds for immediate character death, or at least a
good maiming.
Dave
David Grenier
> Hi!
Hi there!
> As I don't know the rule system of D&D, I don't know where and when my
> character statistics take effect. While the levels 3-18 (this should be
> 3d6, which is commonly used by other RPGs as well) looks reasonable to
> me, I do not understand the notation 18/xxx (xxx being any number).
This is an artifact from AD&D, as you have correctly ascertained. In D&D,
this notation only applied to one statistic (Strength), and it only applied
to one class (Fighter). The concept is that fighters have had such
dedicated training that they are capable of being stronger than the rest of
us. Therefore, when a Fighter rolls an 18 for his starting strength, he may
roll percentile dice and use that as a measure of exceptional strength,
which was recorded as 18/xxx (x is between 1 and 100). If a fighter ever
reached a stat beyond 18/100, it began counting as usual again, from 19 up
to 25 (the maximum). Other classes simply went straight from 18 to 19. The
result was that the gap between 18 and 19 was *huge* and Strength was
generally very messed up.
On another note, D&D is the only system I know of that gives you starting
stats with 3d6 for each stat. Not even Angband does that: In Angband each
base statistic is given by 5 + 1d3 + 1d4 + 1d5, resulting in a number
between 8 and 17. In Angband, each point after the slash is regarded as
one-tenth of a full point: 18/40 = 22 and 18/137 = 31.7. Decimal points
largely don't make any difference, so 18/137 = 18/134 = 18/139 = 18/130.
That's really everything there is to know...
Dave
Joseph R. Justice
Also, I only read Usenet newsgroups very irregularly. If you want to
make *certain* I see your response to my message, please CC: a copy of
it to me via e-mail, and please also say within it that it's been both
posted and e-mailed. Thanks. -- J]
[P (and M to Matthias Kluwe). -- J]
According to Matthias Kluwe <mkl...@informatik.uni-bremen.de>:
> I recently started playing ZAngband, but my "problem" applies to all
> variants of Angband:
>
> As I don't know the rule system of D&D, I don't know where and when
> my character statistics take effect. While the levels 3-18 (this
> should be 3d6, which is commonly used by other RPGs as well) looks
> reasonable to me, I do not understand the notation 18/xxx (xxx being
> any number).
>
> Please point me anywhere to learn about this.
Someone else in this thread mentioned that looking at the source code
to ZAngband, specifically "tables.c", might be helpful in
understanding what game effect various specific stat values would
have.
While the source code is of course the final and authoritative source
of an answer to this sort of question, another resource you could go
to for information which is (AFAIK) derived from the source code is
the "Spoilers" section of the online web site for ZAngband, located at
"http://www.zangband.org".
The information is in the right sidebar column, about mid-way down the
home page, under a header titled "Spoilers". I think the specific
page you would want to look at is named "Stat Affects".
There's lots of other interesting and useful information about
ZAngband on this site also, of course.
Hope this is of some use and information. Thanks for your time. Be
well.
Joseph
--
Joseph R. Justice == jrj, (at) radix.net ==
(AOL IM) JosRJust == anon-24205, (at) anon.twwells.com ==
(EFNet) IRC: jrj, jrjx, jrjxx http://www.radix.net/~jrj
"Just Another Member of the DigExodus"
Julian Lighton
David Grenier <gre...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>"Matthias Kluwe" <mkl...@informatik.uni-bremen.de> wrote in message
>news:slrnaa3h5a...@x26.informatik.uni-bremen.de...
>> great detail ...
>
>Not always true. In "Paranoia" the rules are considered treasonous material
>and knowing them is grounds for immediate character death, or at least a
>good maiming.
But then, what isn't?
Trust the RNG. The RNG is your friend.
silt
news:uaaoteq...@corp.supernews.com...
Heh. I'm infamous for my improvised Paranoia games at conventions. No one
who was strapped to it will ever forget the Timpani of Death.
Note that some game masters--myself included--in more traditional style
RPG's totally took the mechanics from the hands of the players. I only
allowed for my continuing (as opposed to one off games) campaign dedicated
players, and I sat and talked with them quite a while, asking about what
sort of character the wished to play, explained the options. Then I
retreated and wrote up reams of personalized info about what the character
would know--some accurate, some not--in addition to the general knowledge
all would have (again, some not accurate or only partially so). The players
never had dice in their hands before or while playing, nor character sheets
with numbers. My campaign world intentionally facilitated this, with weak
PC's. The first major "encounter" was with a giant--who turned out to be an
imbecile exagerated glandular case. Dangerous, yes. Mythic? No--only in the
stories they heard (read) beforehand. The frission of experienced RPG
players expecting a giant and meeting something not quite.... Delicious, for
me and them both. Also, I enforced reasonable things like: swords were NOT
common in what normal fantasy settings use. Swords were expensive, and
banned for common folk. A warhorse cost the full production of a minor
knight's holdings for a year! So, er, anyway, in my game players had
abilities--in some cases strong ones--but because they were not
intrinsically SPECIAL, and had no dice or rules in their grasp, they had to
roleplay honestly, earnestly. The fear and shock both of meeting that
"giant" kicked the ass of any player experience they had had killing orcs in
AD&D or whatever. Then I used a bit of Deus ex Machina to neatly invalidate
all they certain info I'd given them in the reams of background and put them
in the dodgier place of legends....
One player had a Big Secret--he was a spell caster. Which was dangerous to
do, and much hated, and he had to hide it from the others, at least until he
was sure of them, through roleplaying on all sides. Another had a shadowy
past, he dreamed as a teen of a fire and his family burned alive. He had the
attention of a minor "god"--I gave enough info to keep the player scared but
never developed it in play.... One player was "running" an inept minstrel, a
farm boy sold into indenture by has desperately poor parents who escaped.
Another was a healer on his year of conversion & travel, pledging himself to
the state religion...and thrown into turmoil after the deux ex machina, a
tremendous test of faith for a young believer.
Role-playing games are about ROLE playing. Angband is not a role playing
game. It's not close by any measure of imagination, whether or not a player
of Angband wishes to try and make it one in their personal play. There is no
inherent reason to make the rules against that urge to role play, but any
changes to make them more that way that *in any possible way* compromise in
the slightest the real Angband play is stupidity and worse.
Er, sorry. Rambling. Point was simple: pen & paper RPG's need not have the
rules and numbers in the players hands, and sometimes those are impediments
to good role playing.
(My campaign fell apart--this is all long ago--as others moved away, blah
blah. I've not GM'd in forever, or been player either. I'd love to again do
either, so if any reading are in the area of Portland Maine US, let me know!
lol)
Matthias Kluwe
> "Julian Lighton" <jl...@fragment.com> wrote in message
> news:uaaoteq...@corp.supernews.com...
>> In article <mIso8.33066$tg4.3...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>> David Grenier <gre...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> >"Matthias Kluwe" <mkl...@informatik.uni-bremen.de> wrote in message
>> >news:slrnaa3h5a...@x26.informatik.uni-bremen.de...
>> >> The game machanics of Pencil&Paper games are known to the players in
>> >> great detail ...
OK, I simplified too much here.
>> >Not always true. In "Paranoia" the rules are considered treasonous
> material
>> >and knowing them is grounds for immediate character death, or at least a
>> >good maiming.
>>
>> But then, what isn't?
>>
>> Trust the RNG. The RNG is your friend.
>
> Heh. I'm infamous for my improvised Paranoia games at conventions. No one
> who was strapped to it will ever forget the Timpani of Death.
>
[...]
>
> Er, sorry. Rambling. Point was simple: pen & paper RPG's need not have the
> rules and numbers in the players hands, and sometimes those are impediments
> to good role playing.
You're right here, but I've always felt that taking away numbers and
dice from the players makes the game much more 'serious'. To many
players I know throwing dice and making decisions and calculation based
on their number-rated skills is *fun*. This obviously interferes with
good role playing in a 'classical view' -- it always seemed to me like
actors in a theatre saying "Don't worry -- we're only *playing* this" in
the middle of their play (this is not considered as bad playing
nowadays...)
Bruce Sinclair
:"Julian Lighton" <jl...@fragment.com> wrote in message
(snip)
:Role-playing games are about ROLE playing. Angband is not a role playing
:game. It's not close by any measure of imagination, whether or not a player
:of Angband wishes to try and make it one in their personal play. There is no
:inherent reason to make the rules against that urge to role play, but any
:changes to make them more that way that *in any possible way* compromise in
:the slightest the real Angband play is stupidity and worse.
:
:Er, sorry. Rambling. Point was simple: pen & paper RPG's need not have the
:rules and numbers in the players hands, and sometimes those are impediments
:to good role playing.
Agree totally. Certainly the most fun I've ever had was when I had no
idea of what was going on or how it worked :) As a player I really
appreciate the DM that can be bothered to do all the hard stuff and just
make up a fun story :) :)
Bruce
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Francis Sandow
news:%sUp8.22321$26.16...@typhoon.maine.rr.com...
> Role-playing games are about ROLE playing. Angband is not a role playing
> game. It's not close by any measure of imagination, whether or not a
player
> of Angband wishes to try and make it one in their personal play. There is
no
> inherent reason to make the rules against that urge to role play, but any
> changes to make them more that way that *in any possible way* compromise
in
> the slightest the real Angband play is stupidity and worse.
Here, here!
I read this recently in some computer games mag, with some distaste:
| Usually at the end of a level you are told which power has increased...
| But once again, fans of the original Jedi Knight will be worried that they
have no
| influence whatsoever over the way their character develops. This was
after all a
| popular feature of JK that added a very subtle, yet albeit distinct RPG
slant to the game.
yuueerk - a bunch of stats does not a role-play game make.
With the possible exception of on-line variants such as Mangband that open
the doors
for some level of character interaction, 'band can never be considered a
role-play game.
However, I'll keep on playing it for a host of other reasons.