Poll: roguelike keyset vs. regular keyset
Triskaidecapod
I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
b) What your first roguelike was.
c) What keyset you currently use.
d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
So for me:
a) 8 years.
b) Moria.
c) Roguelike commands.
d) Nope, roguelikes all the way (they are after all roguelike games).
Thanks in advance for all the responses I'm sure I'll get!
-Triskaidecapod
Triskaidecapod
will_asher
a) uh, about 12 years
b) Hack (before Nethack), then Nethack, then Angband
c) roguelike commands
d) not in angband, but when I found out the then-new version of Nethack had an
option to use arrow keys, I used them for a short time, but decided I liked the
roguelike set better. One reason is that my obsolete laptop (which I don't use
as much since I moved back in with my parents) didn't have a keypad and only had
the four arrow keys, so it was very inconvienent to move diagonally.
pete m
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a,b) 4 years, though I played Moria briefly 15 years ago.
c) roguelike.
d) No. Laptops don't have a keypad, and even if they did, it would
interfere with touch-typing. Anyway, hjkl has a long and honored
history as the movement keys for 'vi'.
Djabanete
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
>
a) 12 years
b) Hack, Moria, Angband, Entroband (with small side trips to NetHack, Crawl,
and other *band variants)
c) Roguelikes!
d) Never!
jjan
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
tigpup
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a) 10 years on & off
b) Moria, V, now mainly NPP
c) Regular keyset
d) never - always regular
arc...@gmail.com
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset
> players. So I thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done
> before, but not recently, and I'm also wondering whether the newer
> players ever decide to play with roguelike commands. The first
> roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
>
a) 10 - 13 years or so
b) Moria
c) The regular keyset
d) No. I even bought a usb numeric keypad for a laptop specifically
for Angband at one point.
--Shanoah
bos...@inmail24.com
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a) 6 years with any real intensity, with a big jump in intensity (as
in I practically stopped playing other genres) after the first 2.
b) Not counting a little Gateway to Apshai in the 80s (and does Sword
of Fargoal count??), I guess Nethack, although ADOM is what really got
me playing intensely.
c) Numpad. Baby.
d) Only once or twice as a test. The test... failed. Or succeeded,
depending on how you look at it.
Bostock
Nick
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
Only really about 5 years.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
I used to play Castle of the Winds in the 90s (and i suspect I may have started
a game of Moria once), but otherwise Angband
> c) What keyset you currently use.
Regular.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
No - it took me a while to get accustomed to playing on a laptop when I first
started, but I'm fine with it now.
Nick.
--
"There is no safety, and there is no end. The word must be heard in silence;
there must be darkness to see the stars. The dance is always danced above the
hollow place, above the terrible abyss."
- The Farthest Shore, Ursula Le Guin
andrewdoull
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a) 15 years
b) Angband frog-knows or MacAngband, not sure which...
c) Roguelike
d) Switched due to playing on laptops.
Andrew
--
The Roflwtfzomgbbq Quylthulg summons L33t Paladins -more-
"Apple: Celebrating the poisoning of Alan Turing since 1977."
ASCII Dreams: http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com
Unangband: http://unangband.blogspot.com
Fuma
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a) On and off for about six years maybe.
b) Decker, then Zangband, then everything else.
c) Roguelike.
d) At first I played the standard keyset, but then my computer broke and I had
to play on my laptop so I switched. Vi had some influence over this decision,
but I can't really recall what happened.
--
www.snowleopard.org - International Snow Leopard Trust
Klaus Kruse
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
>
a) almost 15 years.
b) Moria (UMoria?) on an Amiga.
c) regular.
d) No. Never tried. I don't even know what exactly would be different
with the roguelike set. Don't really wanna know, I'm happy with regular
and too old to learn new tricks anyway ;-)
Klaus
Hallvard B Furuseth
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
15-20 years, on and off.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Rogue or Larn.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
Roguelike.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
No. What's the point?
--
Hallvard
Phil Carmody
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
Since I got a ZX81, which was just after the ZX Spectrum came out
(I got a cast-off) - 1982, presumably
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Whatever it was on the ZX81 - "mazogs"?
I remember it used to go into 'FAST' mode (where it didn't display
anything to the screen, as that used too much CPU power) to
generate the levels, and still took about 5 minutes!
> c) What keyset you currently use.
Whatever the default Angband one is.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
When I played Moria in the late 80s, I used the default for
that. It's not really switching, it's just a case that if
you don't play for half a decade and then pick up a different
game, you just adopt what that new game uses.
I do find the Angband ones more logical than the Moria ones,
but it's still far from perfect.
Phil
--
Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all.
-- Microsoft voice recognition live demonstration
The Wanderer
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset
> players. So I thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done
> before, but not recently, and I'm also wondering whether the newer
> players ever decide to play with roguelike commands. The first
> roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria for instance only
> uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
..I don't honestly know; a minimum of five years, more likely closer to
ten. I know I started well before switching from Windows, which cannot
have happened less than four or more than nine years ago.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
ADoM.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
I don't know how to describe "keysets", particularly with respect to the
fact that different games use different command conventions, but I've
never even understood exactly what keys were supposed to do what in the
'Rogue-like' keyset, much less how it was supposed to make sense or be
intuitive; I certainly don't use it.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
Nope.
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
magnate
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
Not correct. Moria was my first roguelike, and I never had to use hjkl
to move, so it supported NumPad movement, at least. I don't recall
what the other commands were though.
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
About 18 years with a long gap from 1993-2000.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Moria (PC version)
> c) What keyset you currently use.
Standard.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
No. The standard keyset works just fine.
CC
Psi
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a) around 16 years (on and off)
b) Umoria and Ularn (Amiga)
c) regular
d) not knowingly
Si
Brian Collett
Triskaidecapod <Triskai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players.
> So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect.
> Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
>
a) About 18 years
b) Rogue, back in 1982
c) Roguelike
d) No. I have always played on a laptop. No numpad->Angband set
impossible.
Brian
Rich Walker
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
1992? Maybe earlier if you count Valley of the Kings.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Angband
> c) What keyset you currently use.
On a laptop, so hjkl
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
Moved from desktop to Laptop
--
rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | r...@shadow.org.uk
technical director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow
need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487
http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/
Psi
> > I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players.
> > So I
> > thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> > and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> > roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect.
> > Moria
> > for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
> >
> > a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> > b) What your first roguelike was.
> > c) What keyset you currently use.
> > d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
> >
> a) About 18 years
> b) Rogue, back in 1982
> c) Roguelike
> d) No. I have always played on a laptop. No numpad->Angband set
> impossible.
I think there are enough of us who play with the regular key set on a laptop to
say that it is not impossible. Personally I use the cursor keys for the cardinal
directions and my brain now has 1,3,7 and 9 hardwired in for the diagonals.
Si
nebul...@gmail.com
> a,b) 4 years, though I played Moria briefly 15 years ago.
Angband, starting maybe 10 years ago. Dabbled in ADOM, Crawl, etc. and
probably ran into Nethack a time or two even earlier.
> c) roguelike.
Regular.
> d) No. Laptops don't have a keypad, and even if they did, it would
> interfere with touch-typing. Anyway, hjkl has a long and honored
> history as the movement keys for 'vi'.
No. "hjkl" for movement, when they're not only not the arrow keys or
the numpad but not even arranged as a cross? (a straight line,
instead)? How utterly unintuitive and broken; designed to be a crooked
crutch for laptop-users I suppose. (Although I *had* thought that vile
predated laptop technology? In which case there's really no excuse :P)
Having an obvious mapping from the directions to the keys for
navigation is, well, too obvious a usability bonus to ignore. That's
nine less keys to have to memorize and still frequently mistype --
it's easy to get the correct numpad key blind, since the stay-put key
has a little bump on most keyboards and the others are arranged around
that in the obvious way! Actually, I'd expect fat-fingered missteps to
keep killing roguelike keyset users. ;) ("Hmm? Which of h, j, k, or l
went which way again? Shame it's not obvious ... bah, dead, any other
one would have been ok but left stepped me right into LOS of
approximately six Black Reavers at once. Just my luck!")
Not that the default keybindings are perfect -- "a" and "z", which was
for rods and which was for wands again? Even "q"uaff might arguably
have been better off as "D"ring ("d" already being in use)...and
getting the shifting wrong is then much less drastic too. (Pressing
"d" prompts you which item to drop. "Q" prompts you to confirm
suicide.)
But the regular keyset is far, far less reliant on arbitrary
memorization than the alternative.
Laptop users rejoice in the invention of the USB numpad.
Ed Jensen
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
On and off since the early 80s.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Hack.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
hjkl
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
Mostly (but not exclusively) used hjkl due to having many keyboards
over the years without a numeric keypad.
R. Dan Henry
<Triskai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hey,
>
>I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
>thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
>and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
>roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
>for instance only uses roguelikes.
Untrue, at least on the Mac. I've always used the number pad.
>Please include the following:
>
>a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
Oh, nearly 15 years now. And I came to them late, in graduate school.
>b) What your first roguelike was.
Moria. Discovered Nethack and Angband not too long after. Eventually
settled on Angband.
For that matter, I've actually played Morgul (which introduced
targeting) and Druid Moria (IIRC, that was the Moria-like with color, as
well as the "Druid" class that used both sets of spells). Tried a little
Fangband in the day, as well. And I remember Angband--, which was a sort
of proto-Zangband, which already included Treasure Pits, but had a lot
more Calvin and Hobbes uniques. Man, I've wasted a lot of hours on this
stuff!
>c) What keyset you currently use.
Regular. The numberpad is good for me.
>d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
No. If I had a laptop, I'd probably make the effort to the roguelike
command set, but I don't have a laptop, so why bother?
--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Holy Avenger should be a Paladin title,
not an ego item.
Big Al
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Depending on the definition of 'roguelike', I started on "Mission: Thunderbolt",
which is a roguelike gameplay-wise, although it used graphical tiles instead of
ascii, it has a sci-fi theme instead of fantasy, and was marketed
(unsuccessfully) commercially. Otherwise, Nethack.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
I use the regular keyset, though I play on a laptop, so there's no number pad.
The 'fn' key on the keyboard makes certain letter leys act as number keys when
depressed ('fn' + 'u', 'i', 'o', 'j', 'k', 'l' --> '4', '5', '6', '1', '2', '3'
respectively). So, it's kind of half way between the two keysets.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
Not really, I used to play on a full keyboard, now I'm on a laptop keyboard (see
above).
camlost
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a) 8 years. Sheesh, has it been that long?
b) Angband, ZAngband.
c) Regular keyset
d) I tried the roguelike keyset on a laptop, but it drove me bonkers.
Pelle Johansson
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset
> players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a) 5 years
b) angband
c) rogue
d) I believe i first switched about 2-3 years ago because I couldn't
get the running to work with original keyset without pressing . first,
which annoyed me. Currently I use it because my laptop does not have a
numeric keypad, and frankly I find it faster, since I can use both
hands for typing most commands.
--
Pelle Johansson
Pelle Johansson
> On Sep 27, 1:37 am, pete m <pmac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> a,b) 4 years, though I played Moria briefly 15 years ago.
>
> Angband, starting maybe 10 years ago. Dabbled in ADOM, Crawl, etc. and
> probably ran into Nethack a time or two even earlier.
>
>> c) roguelike.
>
> Regular.
>
>> d) No. Laptops don't have a keypad, and even if they did, it would
>> interfere with touch-typing. Anyway, hjkl has a long and honored
>> history as the movement keys for 'vi'.
>
> No. "hjkl" for movement, when they're not only not the arrow keys or
> the numpad but not even arranged as a cross? (a straight line,
> instead)? How utterly unintuitive and broken; designed to be a crooked
> crutch for laptop-users I suppose. (Although I *had* thought that vile
> predated laptop technology? In which case there's really no excuse :P)
It probably predates the numeric keypad... Anyway, it does involve less
finger movement, and it doesn't really take that long to learn which
one goes which way. One anoying thing is that they're one step left
from the regular finger positions, but they do need to be characters I
guess (my keyboard does not produce a ; on the key to the right of
them, but rather an ö).
> Not that the default keybindings are perfect -- "a" and "z", which was
> for rods and which was for wands again?
Worse, they're actually switched opposite from the roguelike keyset, so
if you wish to use both keysets, it's a complete mess.
--
Pelle Johansson
Eddie Grove
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
1981 or 1982, I think.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Rogue.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
numpad
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
I switched. I'm not sure why.
Perhaps it is because I evolved with the times, moving from vi to emacs.
Eddie
Andrew Schoonmaker
>for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
I concur with magnate that the version of Moria that I started with had
an option for numpad.
>a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
Since 1995, off and on ("off" at the moment, I think).
>b) What your first roguelike was.
Moria.
>c) What keyset you currently use.
Roguelike.
>d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
I think I changed from numpad to roguelike keys around the time I got my
laptop, which was probably a yearish after I started playing. Details
are kind of fuzzy at this point, though.
-Andrew ()
nebul...@gmail.com
> > No. "hjkl" for movement, when they're not only not the arrow keys or
> > the numpad but not even arranged as a cross? (a straight line,
> > instead)? How utterly unintuitive and broken; designed to be a crooked
> > crutch for laptop-users I suppose. (Although I *had* thought that vile
> > predated laptop technology? In which case there's really no excuse :P)
>
> It probably predates the numeric keypad...
How primitive.
> Anyway, it does involve less finger movement, and it doesn't really take
> that long to learn which one goes which way.
Despite there being no logic behind the key assignments whatsoever?
> One anoying thing is that they're one step left
> from the regular finger positions, but they do need to be characters I
> guess (my keyboard does not produce a ; on the key to the right of
> them, but rather an ö).
Your keyboard is abnormal, then. Try getting a plain bog-standard 101-
key keyboard; it should have ; where it normally goes AND a numpad!
They can be found in nearly any computer store for $20-40.
> Worse, they're actually switched opposite from the roguelike keyset, so
> if you wish to use both keysets, it's a complete mess.
The only thing I can imagine that would be wackier than using the
roguelike keyset is actually using both of them alternately. :P
Klaus Kruse
> On Sep 27, 1:11 pm, Pelle Johansson <mo...@morth.org> wrote:
>>> No. "hjkl" for movement, when they're not only not the arrow keys or
>>> the numpad but not even arranged as a cross? (a straight line,
>>> instead)? How utterly unintuitive and broken; designed to be a crooked
>>> crutch for laptop-users I suppose. (Although I *had* thought that vile
>>> predated laptop technology? In which case there's really no excuse :P)
>> It probably predates the numeric keypad...
>
> How primitive.
>
>> Anyway, it does involve less finger movement, and it doesn't really take
>> that long to learn which one goes which way.
>
> Despite there being no logic behind the key assignments whatsoever?
>
>> One anoying thing is that they're one step left
>> from the regular finger positions, but they do need to be characters I
>> guess (my keyboard does not produce a ; on the key to the right of
>> them, but rather an ö).
>
> Your keyboard is abnormal, then. Try getting a plain bog-standard 101-
> key keyboard; it should have ; where it normally goes AND a numpad!
> They can be found in nearly any computer store for $20-40.
The 'ö' right of the 'l' is a german-keyboard-thing, getting a standard
(english) keyboard is a bad idea. I remeber using german keyboards at
university and the english Amiga-Keyboard at home, very confusing.
Klaus
Hallvard B Furuseth
>On Sep 27, 1:11 pm, Pelle Johansson <mo...@morth.org> wrote:
>> Anyway, it does involve less finger movement, and it doesn't really take
>> that long to learn which one goes which way.
>
> Despite there being no logic behind the key assignments whatsoever?
Just that you don't know the logic (besides what Pelle just said)
doesn't mean there isn't any.
And if you find it so hard to learn "illogical" keysets, does that mean
you have (or yearn for) a keyboard with the keys alphabetically ordered?
Or did you manage to learn that after all?
>> One anoying thing is that they're one step left
>> from the regular finger positions, but they do need to be characters I
>> guess (my keyboard does not produce a ; on the key to the right of
>> them, but rather an ö).
>
> Your keyboard is abnormal, then.
Those of us who speak non-English languages want common non-ASCII letters
readily available, thus they displace various ASCII letters.
> Try getting a plain bog-standard 101-
> key keyboard; it should have ; where it normally goes AND a numpad!
Numpad => not only more finger movement, but hand movement.
--
Hallvard
Hallvard B Furuseth
> Those of us who speak non-English languages want
our most
> common non-ASCII letters
> readily available, thus they displace various ASCII letters.
ASCII symbols, I mean.
--
Hallvard
The Wanderer
> On 2007-09-27 17:04:43 +0200, nebul...@gmail.com said:
>
>> On Sep 27, 1:37 am, pete m <pmac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> d) No. Laptops don't have a keypad, and even if they did, it
>>> would interfere with touch-typing. Anyway, hjkl has a long and
>>> honored history as the movement keys for 'vi'.
>>
>> No. "hjkl" for movement, when they're not only not the arrow keys
>> or the numpad but not even arranged as a cross? (a straight line,
>> instead)? How utterly unintuitive and broken; designed to be a
>> crooked crutch for laptop-users I suppose. (Although I *had*
>> thought that vile predated laptop technology? In which case there's
>> really no excuse :P)
>
> It probably predates the numeric keypad...
I believe it does indeed; I remember a fair number of games on the Apple
//c (some of them realtime-action, even) which used these as the
movement keys by default, and there was no numeric keypad on that
computer. Some of them used 'ijkm' instead, which is slightly more
sensical but still hard to use.
Some of my brothers were fairly good at those games; I never got my head
(and, more importantly, my fingers) around the unintuitive nature of the
movement interface well enough to be more than mediocre.
The Wanderer
> On 2007-09-27 06:15:38 +0200, Triskaidecapod <Triskai...@gmail.com>
> said:
>> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
>> b) What your first roguelike was.
>> c) What keyset you currently use.
>> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
>
> a) 5 years
> b) angband
> c) rogue
> d) I believe i first switched about 2-3 years ago because I couldn't
> get the running to work with original keyset without pressing .
> first, which annoyed me.
...as far as I know, it's not supposed to be possible to 'run' (that is,
keep moving until disturbed or until other input is received) other than
by using '.'; at the very least, *some* trigger key would be necessary,
to differentiate it from non-running movement. (ADoM uses 'w', for
"walk", but that's even less convenient in some ways.) Why did you think
that it was supposed to be possible?
If (as I infer from your phrasing) you have figured out how to do it
when using the roguelike keyset, how in the world did you manage it?
> Currently I use it because my laptop does not have a numeric keypad,
> and frankly I find it faster, since I can use both hands for typing
> most commands.
I would simply not bother to play without a numeric keypad; the
aggravation of having to either use the horizontally-arranged number
keys or learn an entirely new set of command mappings for so many other
commands would just make it not worth the effort.
Hallvard B Furuseth
> ...as far as I know, it's not supposed to be possible to 'run' (that is,
> keep moving until disturbed or until other input is received) other than
> by using '.'; at the very least, *some* trigger key would be necessary,
The Shift key. See 'Run' in the command.txt help file. For me it
doesn't work with the numeric keypad under -mgcu (curses), but it
works with the Roguelike commands, and with the keypad on X11.
--
Hallvard
Igenlode Wordsmith
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset
> players. So I thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done
> before, but not recently, and I'm also wondering whether the newer
> players ever decide to play with roguelike commands. The first
> roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria for instance only
> uses roguelikes.
Really? I think that may depend on your versiom.
> Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
10-15 years. It's pathetic that I'm not any better at it, really ;-)
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Angband -- Frog-knows. I investigated UMoria later out of curiosity.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
What was known in Frog-knows as the 'original' keyset as versus the
rogue-like...
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
>
No.
--
Igenlode Visit the Ivory Tower http://ivory.150m.com/Tower/
-I never shot anybody before... -This is one hell of a time to tell me!
nebul...@gmail.com
wrote:
> nebulou...@gmail.com writes:
> >On Sep 27, 1:11 pm, Pelle Johansson <mo...@morth.org> wrote:
> >> Anyway, it does involve less finger movement, and it doesn't really take
> >> that long to learn which one goes which way.
>
> > Despite there being no logic behind the key assignments whatsoever?
>
> Just that you don't know the logic (besides what Pelle just said)
> doesn't mean there isn't any.
[Warning: possible hostile detected. Elevating to DEFCON 4.]
But in this case there actually isn't any.
> And if you find it so hard to learn "illogical" keysets, does that mean
> you have (or yearn for) a keyboard with the keys alphabetically ordered?
> Or did you manage to learn that after all?
There's a major difference. The keys are all labeled as to what letter
they are, and one uses them the same way in every application for
decades, versus in a single game for (when new) only a few days.
The roguelike movement keys are in no way, shape, or form labeled as
to what direction they move you in, unlike, say, the numpad keys.
> > Your keyboard is abnormal, then.
>
> Those of us who speak non-English languages want common non-ASCII letters
> readily available, thus they displace various ASCII letters.
Seems to me if you use more symbols commonly, then you should actually
have a keyboard with additional keys for those additional symbols,
instead of giving up common punctuation characters and ending up with
the hobson's choice of which characters to keep and which to give up.
> Numpad => not only more finger movement, but hand movement.
I think not. I tend to keep one hand on the numpad and one on the
regular part of the keyboard, rather than move one back and forth,
when playing. Sensibly, many of the useful command keys are clustered
to the left; only b, l, m, n, p, and u are to the right. If in combat
I'll shift the left hand over there so the left casts spells and the
right melees and moves; using staves, browsing books, and looking
around meanwhile are less frequent actions than many. It doesn't seem
to result in excessive hand movement for me...
Craig Oliver
b) My first roguelike was Moria. Viva la Balrog!
c) I use non-roguelike keybindings.
d) I learned the roguelike keys when I was playing Angband on a laptop, but then
switched back after a while when I got a numeric keypad for my lappy.
Interestingly, learning the roguelike keyset was a big help when I needed to
learn VIM at work -- the cursor control keys were the same. Did Rogue inherit
that from Vim?
The version of Moria I played in '95 used the non-roguelike keyset. I don't
recall if roguelike keys were even an option.
Craig
On 2007-09-27 06:14:09, Triskaidecapod <Triskai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
>
> So for me:
>
> a) 8 years.
> b) Moria.
> c) Roguelike commands.
> d) Nope, roguelikes all the way (they are after all roguelike games).
>
>
> Thanks in advance for all the responses I'm sure I'll get!
>
> -Triskaidecapod
>
>
>
>
>
>
pete m
> a) I've been playing roguelikes since 1995 or so.
> b) My first roguelike was Moria. Viva la Balrog!
> c) I use non-roguelike keybindings.
> d) I learned the roguelike keys when I was playing Angband on a laptop, but then
> switched back after a while when I got a numeric keypad for my lappy.
>
> Interestingly, learning the roguelike keyset was a big help when I needed to
> learn VIM at work -- the cursor control keys were the same. Did Rogue inherit
> that from Vim?
Not quite. Vim is a modern version of one of the two original
industry-grade screen editors, vi. (Vi was written in 1976 by Bill
Joy. It was designed to run on 24x80 green-screen terminals across
300baud modems, which is really pretty amazing when you think about
it.)
Igenlode Wordsmith
> Pelle Johansson wrote:
>
> > On 2007-09-27 17:04:43 +0200, nebul...@gmail.com said:
[snip]
> >> No. "hjkl" for movement, when they're not only not the arrow keys
> >> or the numpad but not even arranged as a cross? (a straight line,
> >> instead)? How utterly unintuitive and broken; designed to be a
> >> crooked crutch for laptop-users I suppose. (Although I *had*
> >> thought that vile predated laptop technology? In which case there's
> >> really no excuse :P)
> >
> > It probably predates the numeric keypad...
>
> I believe it does indeed; I remember a fair number of games on the Apple
> //c (some of them realtime-action, even) which used these as the
> movement keys by default, and there was no numeric keypad on that
> computer. Some of them used 'ijkm' instead, which is slightly more
> sensical but still hard to use.
Didn't the ZX81 have its cursor keys arranged to save space in a
straight line? I got quite good at steering arcade games like that...
although I seem to remember seeing a natty little 'joystick' device
advertised which fitted over the relevant four keys and depressed the
appropriate one when you moved the stick on top!
--
Igenlode Visit the Ivory Tower http://ivory.150m.com/Tower/
* Never assume malice when ignorance is a possibility *
konijn_
Not sure keyboard makers would like that one ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout
Imagine the head aches of punching extra holes in those keyboards for
all the extra keys.
Now, for a developer I find the US keyboard the best. I worked with
Belgian/French Canadian/Dutch/French/German keyboard and nothing beats
the good old US keyboard. Numbers are easily available, @[{}]() is
also available easy, what more would one want ?
<SNIP>
T.
konijn_
> a) 16 years
> b) Castle Adventure, first *band was Zangband
> c) 'Standard'
> d) Never
Hugo Kornelis
>On Sep 27, 1:11 pm, Pelle Johansson <mo...@morth.org> wrote:
>> > No. "hjkl" for movement, when they're not only not the arrow keys or
>> > the numpad but not even arranged as a cross? (a straight line,
>> > instead)? How utterly unintuitive and broken; designed to be a crooked
>> > crutch for laptop-users I suppose. (Although I *had* thought that vile
>> > predated laptop technology? In which case there's really no excuse :P)
Hi nebulous,
The roguelike keyset originated from users who were used to the Unix
text editor "vi". This editor was the first "wysiawyg" (what yous is
approximately what you get) editor available on Unix, and a huge
improvement over the line best text editors available before then. (See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_editor for more information on
line-based editors, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi for more on vi).
Anyway, vi used hjkl for cursor movement. I've used vi for a period of
about a year and a half, now long ago, and I can assure you that you DO
get used to these key assignments. Even pretty fast. So I can very well
imagine that someone used to working in vi (which is probably still in
use by many Linux users) would prefer to use these keys for movement
over the cursor or numpad keys.
(snip)
>Despite there being no logic behind the key assignments whatsoever?
There is (or rather: was) logic behind these key assignments. See the
article and picture at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi#History.
>> One anoying thing is that they're one step left
>> from the regular finger positions, but they do need to be characters I
>> guess (my keyboard does not produce a ; on the key to the right of
>> them, but rather an ö).
>
>Your keyboard is abnormal, then. Try getting a plain bog-standard 101-
>key keyboard; it should have ; where it normally goes AND a numpad!
>They can be found in nearly any computer store for $20-40.
In the USA, sure. In many other countries, a plain bog-standard 101-key
keyboard has a different layout, and often a different price tag as
well. Like, for instance €15-30.
Despite everything that President Bush is trying to make his citizens
believe, foreign does not equate abnormal.
And unless you have no objection to being called "abnormal" by non-US
people, you'd better restrain yourself from dishing out that label.
Best, Hugo
--
Angband spoilers - now updated for Angband 3.0.8 !!!!!
Visit http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/index.htm
--
Hugo Kornelis
>Hey,
>
>I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
>thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
>and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
>roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
>for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
>a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
Hi Triskaidecapod,
I *think* I started playing early 2004.
Or actually many years before that - I was visiting my brother, and he
showed me some game he had on his PS/2 computer, called "rogue". I just
couldn't stop, was in bed way too late, and paid a heavy price the next
day. :-)
But after that single night, I never touched a roguelike game again
until I stumbled over Hengband and shortly after that found Angband.
>b) What your first roguelike was.
In a sense, rogue. But the first I really got into (as in: played for
more than a single day) was Angband.
>c) What keyset you currently use.
Original.
>d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
I don't think so - though I am not 100% sure what keys were used by the
rogue version I played at my brother.
Jonathan Ellis
"Triskaidecapod" <Triskai...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fdfamg$2d60$1...@news.vol.cz...
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset
> players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not
> recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play
> with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an
> effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
Since 1984
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Moria
> c) What keyset you currently use.
Regular.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
Never. Moria *was* available, even then, and is available now, with
regular keyset. The roguelike keyset made no sense to me then, and
makes no sense to me now. Even without a numberpad, I got used to
using 123456789 to move.
Jonathan.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Klaus Kruse
>>> Those of us who speak non-English languages want common non-ASCII letters
>>> readily available, thus they displace various ASCII letters.
>> Seems to me if you use more symbols commonly, then you should actually
>> have a keyboard with additional keys for those additional symbols,
>> instead of giving up common punctuation characters and ending up with
>> the hobson's choice of which characters to keep and which to give up.
>
> Not sure keyboard makers would like that one ;)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout
>
> Imagine the head aches of punching extra holes in those keyboards for
> all the extra keys.
More importantly, the additional characters are used very often in
typing since they are just additional letters. So if you want to type a
non-english text fast, you need all your letters in fast reach, having
the non-standard ones somewhere off at additional positions would be no
good.
> Now, for a developer I find the US keyboard the best. I worked with
> Belgian/French Canadian/Dutch/French/German keyboard and nothing beats
> the good old US keyboard. Numbers are easily available, @[{}]() is
> also available easy, what more would one want ?
I started programming with C64 and AMIGA Computers, that came with US
Keyboard layouts, and switched to german layout when I started using
Windows-PCs, and I relearned pretty fast and find they work pretty much
just as well for programming/typing scientific texts. Angband-Wise, the
switch of 'y' and 'z' is a bit annoying for rod-zapping. What I
definitly hate is the french keyboards, that require you to press shift
if you want to type a number. Writing mails from some Internet-Cafe in
France is no fun at all.
Klaus
Hallvard B Furuseth
>On Sep 27, 4:16 pm, Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furus...@usit.uio.no> wrote:
>>nebulou...@gmail.com writes:
>>> Despite there being no logic behind the key assignments whatsoever?
>>
>> Just that you don't know the logic (besides what Pelle just said)
>> doesn't mean there isn't any.
>
> [Warning: possible hostile detected. Elevating to DEFCON 4.]
The word is irritated, not hostile.
> But in this case there actually isn't any.
If you are going to declare something to have no logic, start by
finding out why it is the way it is. And for that matter, if you
are going to tell us what kind if keyboards we should use, start
by finding out how they _are_ designed and why. See below.
>> And if you find it so hard to learn "illogical" keysets, does that mean
>> you have (or yearn for) a keyboard with the keys alphabetically ordered?
>> Or did you manage to learn that after all?
>
> There's a major difference. The keys are all labeled as to what letter
> they are, and one uses them the same way in every application for
> decades, versus in a single game for (when new) only a few days.
>
> The roguelike movement keys are in no way, shape, or form labeled as
> to what direction they move you in, unlike, say, the numpad keys.
Right, you have to read some documentation first. Which you have
to do anyway, if you are going to get anywhere with roguelikes -
in particular Angband.
If you are still at the stage as a typist where you often look at
the keyboard in order to find a key, then your argument is matches
your experience, and an alphabetical keyboard should be easier still.
Otherwise not.
As for logic, I'm not the one making claims about how much logic
may or may not have been involved. But even without looking up
any history or explanations it's easy enough to figure out, if you
think a bit about it and/or try it enough to get used to it:
For 4 commonly used keys, the placement which gives the most
relaxed use is on the home row (a..l...), hence those have long
been movement keys for 'vi' and even on some keyboard(s). Don't
know why h-l instead of 'j-;' like for touch typing, maybe the
';' key was too overloaded already or ';' was placed differently
on different keyboards. (Or it could have been a-f for the left
hand, but perhaps there is a reason why arrow keys are usually
to the right.)
Given those four horizontal keys, left/right could be picked
with some visibly obvious logic and up/down could not.
The diagonal movement keys have the right directions relative to
the 'h' key. Which may again be the most relaxed way at least
for moving down diagonally, you can use the index finger.
>>> Your keyboard is abnormal, then.
>>
>> Those of us who speak non-English languages want common non-ASCII letters
>> readily available, thus they displace various ASCII letters.
>
> Seems to me if you use more symbols commonly, then you should actually
> have a keyboard with additional keys for those additional symbols,
Quite. 106 keys instead of 104 (and before that 102). Compare
104-key <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Qwerty.svg> with an
old 106-key <http://www.av-senteret.no/nettskolen/kurs/tastatur.jpg>.
Note the narrower Left Shift/Enter keys, making room for '<>' and <*,>.
> instead of giving up common punctuation characters and ending up with
> the hobson's choice of which characters to keep and which to give up.
Keyboard keys have been moving around for quite some time.
Whatever key arrangment you are used to is not the One True Way.
Not that I think the current one is perfect, but then they do have
to cater to various different uses.
>> Numpad => not only more finger movement, but hand movement.
>
> I think not. I tend to keep one hand on the numpad and one on the
> regular part of the keyboard, rather than move one back and forth,
> when playing. Sensibly, many of the useful command keys are clustered
> to the left; only b, l, m, n, p, and u are to the right. If in combat
> I'll shift the left hand over there so the left casts spells and the
> right melees and moves; using staves, browsing books, and looking
> around meanwhile are less frequent actions than many. It doesn't seem
> to result in excessive hand movement for me...
Fine, not excessive. But still hand movement. And less relaxed
than necessary, see above. Personally I almost never use the
numpad, and for my most commonly used apps you could also remove
the arrow keys and the keys above them and I wouldn't care.
Though I do appreciate those for apps where I don't know the
keyboard bindings well and for "mouse" apps where I have to wave
my hands around anyway.
--
Hallvard
topazg
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
>
a) 21 years
b) Moria / Hack / Angband frog-knows, in that order I think
c) Roguelike with number pad (used to be roguelike proper, but I like the number
pad and I got use to wands being z and staffs being Z etc. etc., so I kind of
hybrid it now
d) Yes, had to use regular for ToME as (IIRC) I couldn't find some of the key
ToME-specific commands when using the roguelike set - kind of ok with both sets
now
--
Take Care,
Graham
Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming the
dungeon etc...)
pete m
> a) 21 years
> b) Moria / Hack / Angband frog-knows, in that order I think
> c) Roguelike with number pad (used to be roguelike proper, but I like the number
> pad and I got use to wands being z and staffs being Z etc. etc., so I kind of
> hybrid it now
> d) Yes, had to use regular for ToME as (IIRC) I couldn't find some of the key
> ToME-specific commands when using the roguelike set - kind of ok with both sets
> now
FYI: if you are in doubt of a particular roguelike command, you can
always revert to the original keyset by prefixing with backslash.
When I played ToME, I had the same problem, but used backslash to
overcome it.
For rarely used commands (I think one of them was time of day and a
few store commands), two-character commands are not a problem.
Nick
> Despite everything that President Bush is trying to make his citizens
> believe, foreign does not equate abnormal.
You think _you've_ got problems. Living in Australia means continually
translating from "winter" to "summer" and "evening" to "morning" in everything
from Northern Hemisphere Atlantic-centric people who seem to think the earth
only has one people on one bit of it. And if we do get a mention it's all "Down
Under" and "isn't your wildlife cute" and Steve Irwin. And don't get me started
on football.
Nick (cross-posted form alt.rant.hemisphere).
--
"There is no safety, and there is no end. The word must be heard in silence;
there must be darkness to see the stars. The dance is always danced above the
hollow place, above the terrible abyss."
- The Farthest Shore, Ursula Le Guin
Ed Kolis
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a) Gosh, probably at least half my life, and I'm about to turn 24... wow...
Yeah, I actually used to be afraid my dad would catch me playing roguelikes
because they were so "violent", LOL!
b) Nethack (pre-tiles! when imps with AC=2 - impossible to hit! - and
homunculi with poison and those pesky teleporting sleeping leprechauns that
stole gold regularly appeared in the first few dungeon levels!)
c) Standard - erm, I mean, sane, erm, I mean, the one with the numpad for
movement instead of those silly random letter keys ;) Though that got to be
a pain playing on a laptop - I actually got used to using arrows for
orthogonal and 1/3/7/9 above the letters for diagonals!
d) No, though before Tower supported the numpad keyset I tried to get used
to roguelike - I just couldn't so I gave up on Tower for a while,
interesting though it seemed...
Sorry for all the commentary in addition to my answers - I just thought it
would be funny to share these memories ;-)
Christophe Cavalaria
> I started programming with C64 and AMIGA Computers, that came with US
> Keyboard layouts, and switched to german layout when I started using
> Windows-PCs, and I relearned pretty fast and find they work pretty much
> just as well for programming/typing scientific texts. Angband-Wise, the
> switch of 'y' and 'z' is a bit annoying for rod-zapping. What I
> definitly hate is the french keyboards, that require you to press shift
> if you want to type a number. Writing mails from some Internet-Cafe in
> France is no fun at all.
True, that is probably the worse possible design choice made in any
international keyboard.
French keyboard users should try the Portuguese keyboard instead. I believe
it beats french layout for coding and is still good enouth for native text
writing. Unshifted number row, ()[]{} are all very close to each other and
accessed through a single hand, easy to type _, all the required
accentuated letters are available although with deadkeys (but it makes the
À easier to type), plus the ç and even better, the rare Ç. It's qwerty
based though so some adapation time is required and some very standard keys
aren't in their standard location anymore.
topazg
> On 2007-09-27 06:14:09, Triskaidecapod wrote:
>
> > Hey,
> >
> > I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> > thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> > and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> > roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> > for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
> >
> > a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> > b) What your first roguelike was.
> > c) What keyset you currently use.
> > d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
> >
>
> a) 21 years
> b) Moria / Hack / Angband frog-knows, in that order I think
> c) Roguelike with number pad (used to be roguelike proper, but I like the number
> pad and I got use to wands being z and staffs being Z etc. etc., so I kind of
> hybrid it now
> d) Yes, had to use regular for ToME as (IIRC) I couldn't find some of the key
> ToME-specific commands when using the roguelike set - kind of ok with both sets
> now
>
Sorry, make that 18 years -- I've forgotten how to count!
David J Richardson
On any regular basis, 1994 (?)
> > b) What your first roguelike was.
On any regular basis, Angband 2.7.x (?)
> > c) What keyset you currently use.
Regular.
> > d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
Nope. Numpads are good, mkay?
--
David J Richardson -- dav...@richardson.name
http://davidj.richardson.name/ - Dr Who articles/interviews/reviews
http://www.boomerang.org.au/ - Boomerang Association of Australia
Strike & Co.
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
a) um... sometime before 1998. So lets say 12 years.
b) Vanilla Angband; not sure what version #.
c) not-roguelike
d) nope, I like my keypad.
-Strike & Co.
--
Rule # 1: There are always exceptions to the rules.
nebul...@gmail.com
wrote:
> > But in this case there actually isn't any.
>
> If you are going to declare something to have no logic, start by
> finding out why it is the way it is. And for that matter, if you
> are going to tell us what kind if keyboards we should use, start
> by finding out how they _are_ designed and why. See below.
[Warning: hostile detected. Elevating to DEFCON 3.]
> > The roguelike movement keys are in no way, shape, or form labeled as
> > to what direction they move you in, unlike, say, the numpad keys.
>
> Right, you have to read some documentation first. Which you have
> to do anyway, if you are going to get anywhere with roguelikes -
> in particular Angband.
[snip lots]
Nine less keys to learn, because they work bloody easily, is still a
big improvement in usability. Numpad, numpad, rah rah rah!
> For 4 commonly used keys, the placement which gives the most
> relaxed use...
Mnemonic use is what concerns me. If I want relaxation I'll sit and
read a book, or go to bed, or something. :)
> > Seems to me if you use more symbols commonly, then you should actually
> > have a keyboard with additional keys for those additional symbols,
>
> Quite. 106 keys instead of 104 (and before that 102). Compare
> 104-key <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Qwerty.svg> with an
> old 106-key <http://www.av-senteret.no/nettskolen/kurs/tastatur.jpg>.
> Note the narrower Left Shift/Enter keys, making room for '<>' and <*,>.
Hrm. In response, and also to another post in this thread with a
snarky tone, note that if the language uses a significantly different
alphabet than A-Z, the good old QWERTY layout might suck and a whole
new layout, perhaps with more keys but with all the letter keys in the
central area, might make more sense.
Of course then the keyboard is even stranger when it comes to moving
keys like, say, hjkl around (and not just ;); another excellent reason
to use the numpad for movement instead. ;)
> Fine, not excessive. But still hand movement. And less relaxed
> than necessary, see above. Personally I almost never use the
> numpad, and for my most commonly used apps you could also remove
> the arrow keys and the keys above them and I wouldn't care.
Your most commonly used apps do not require navigation, or worse,
force mouse use instead of giving you the option? Heck -- your most
common tasks do not include *text editing*?? (For which task home,
end, page up, page down, and delete are invaluable, nevermind arrows,
if you don't want to be constantly reaching for the mouse.)
> Though I do appreciate those for apps where I don't know the
> keyboard bindings well
Well the bindings for the functions home, end, page up, page down,
delete, move up one, move down one, move left one, and move right one
should be nigh-universal I'd think. If you're using an app that
doesn't bind those functions to the obvious keys, might I suggest
finding an alternative app, preferably one whose designer was
possessed of the faculty of reason? :)
pete m
> Nine less keys to learn, because they work bloody easily, is still a
> big improvement in usability. Numpad, numpad, rah rah rah!
>
> > For 4 commonly used keys, the placement which gives the most
> > relaxed use...
>
> Mnemonic use is what concerns me. If I want relaxation I'll sit and
> read a book, or go to bed, or something. :)
>
> > > Seems to me if you use more symbols commonly, then you should actually
> > > have a keyboard with additional keys for those additional symbols,
>
> > Quite. 106 keys instead of 104 (and before that 102). Compare
> > 104-key <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Qwerty.svg> with an
> > old 106-key <http://www.av-senteret.no/nettskolen/kurs/tastatur.jpg>.
> > Note the narrower Left Shift/Enter keys, making room for '<>' and <*,>.
>
> Hrm. In response, and also to another post in this thread with a
> snarky tone, note that if the language uses a significantly different
> alphabet than A-Z, the good old QWERTY layout might suck and a whole
> new layout, perhaps with more keys but with all the letter keys in the
> central area, might make more sense.
Twisted-
The issue isn't QWERTY vs Dvorak or whatever, the issue is touch-
typing vs hunt-and-peck. The QWERTY keyboard took over the world
because it's inventor also invented touch typing. The reasons two use
hjkl aren't because 'it's logical', though that was true in 1976; the
reasons are
(a) some keyboards don't have keypads (because they are too small or
because they are foreign)
and/or
(b) because some people find that the keypad interferes with touch
typing.
and/or
(c) because they don't feel like learning a new version.
When you are touch-typing, mnemonics are not an issue, muscle memory
is the issue. Nobody recommends newbies use the roguelike set, though
people do recommend changing if a player complains of carpal tunnel
syndrome.
Strike & Co.
> Numpad => not only more finger movement, but hand movement.
Only for my left hand.
Right hand gets the numpad, left hand gets the qwerty board. And since
I have to look for which letter I mean to hit anyway (my touch-typing
error-rate is "large enough" when I have both hands on the letters;
I'm not gonna even try it one-handed!)
Fortunately my hand is large enough to hit most all of the letters
without decentering said hand, if I should feel like one-handed typing.
Now, for FPSs that have the aiming slaved to the mouse, mouse gets
right hand & keypad (movement) gets left hand--but that's a completely
different topic.
(I thought playing *band quickly was one of the four biggest killers,
anyway...)
-Strike & Co.
--
Rule # 1: There are always exceptions to the rules.
Bah, I spend a week offline and come back to hear Neo agreeing with
me... What /is/ the world coming to?
Jilles Tjoelker
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
About 4-5 years I think.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
Angband (vanilla 2.9.x). I also played various newer versions and
variants, but moved on to NetHack and then Crawl.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
roguelike (hjklyubn ftw).
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
I used numpad at first but switched to roguelike fairly quickly. Probably
to do with vi/vim and/or laptops.
--
Jilles Tjoelker
jilles AT stack DOT nl
nebul...@gmail.com
wrote:
> > c) What keyset you currently use.
>
> roguelike (hjklyubn ftw).
"ftw"?
The Wanderer
"For The Win".
If you are not already familiar with this phrase, you have not been
sufficiently exposed to certain of the seedier (though possibly more
thematically rich) areas of the Internet.
You may perhaps be lucky in this.
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
Hallvard B Furuseth
>> Right, you have to read some documentation first. Which you have
>> to do anyway, if you are going to get anywhere with roguelikes -
>> in particular Angband.
>
> [snip lots]
>
> Nine less keys to learn,
Two keys. The rest follow logically. As I just explained in the text
you snipped.
> because they work bloody easily, is still a
> big improvement in usability. Numpad, numpad, rah rah rah!
I was not saying you should not use the numpad, on the contrary I said
maybe you should. I was replying to your repeated claim that there was
no logic to the rougelike commands, and explaining why I prefer them.
>>> Seems to me if you use more symbols commonly, then you should actually
>>> have a keyboard with additional keys for those additional symbols,
>>
>> Quite. 106 keys instead of 104 (and before that 102). Compare
>> 104-key <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Qwerty.svg> with an
>> old 106-key <http://www.av-senteret.no/nettskolen/kurs/tastatur.jpg>.
>> Note the narrower Left Shift/Enter keys, making room for '<>' and <*,>.
>
> Hrm. In response, and also to another post in this thread with a
> snarky tone,
Go back and read why you are getting "snarky" responses. "no logic",
"abnormal", stupid uninformed advice (buy a keyboard), "wacky"...
>> (...) Personally I almost never use the
>> numpad, and for my most commonly used apps you could also remove
>> the arrow keys and the keys above them and I wouldn't care.
>
> Your most commonly used apps do not require navigation, or worse,
> force mouse use instead of giving you the option? Heck -- your most
> common tasks do not include *text editing*??
Keybindings. Control-n/p = next/prev line, etc.
>> Though I do appreciate those for apps where I don't know the
>> keyboard bindings well
>
> Well the bindings for the functions home, end, page up, page down,
> delete, move up one, move down one, move left one, and move right one
> should be nigh-universal I'd think. If you're using an app that
> doesn't bind those functions to the obvious keys, might I suggest
> finding an alternative app, preferably one whose designer was
> possessed of the faculty of reason? :)
That's the fifth time in three messages you assume others' stupidity
just because there is something you did not understand. Of course those
keys are bound. They are just less convenient than the ones I use.
Again, hand movement. Which also can lead to a need to look at the
keyboard when moving my hand back again.
--
Hallvard
Hallvard B Furuseth
> Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>
>> Numpad => not only more finger movement, but hand movement.
>
> Only for my left hand.
> Right hand gets the numpad, left hand gets the qwerty board. And since I
> have to look for which letter I mean to hit anyway (my touch-typing
> error-rate is "large enough" when I have both hands on the letters; I'm
> not gonna even try it one-handed!)
That sounds like it may be the dividing line for whether roguelike
gains you anything, yes.
> (...)
> (I thought playing *band quickly was one of the four biggest killers,
> anyway...)
Dunno. I'm really slow compared to some posters here. But with
Angband as well as typing, speed is only part of the issue. Another
is how much you need to pay attention to your hands and the keyboard,
ie. how much attention the keyboard takes away from your task. If you
know your keyboard and keybindings, the less you need to pay attention
to - or look at - where your hands are, the better. Otherwise arrow
keys & co are the ones which require less attention.
--
Hallvard
tussock
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
Only 14 years or so.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
UMoria 556 for DOS, which used the keypad by default.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
Roguelike.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
Yep, keypad for years, but RSI got the better of that eventually.
Once you switch, vim makes much more sense.
--
tussock
Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
Otto Martin
>nebul...@gmail.com wrote:
>>On Sep 29, 7:21 pm, Jilles Tjoelker <jil...@nospam.stack.nl.nospam>
>>"ftw"?
>"For The Win".
>If you are not already familiar with this phrase, you have not been
>sufficiently exposed to certain of the seedier (though possibly more
>thematically rich) areas of the Internet.
Would make for an horribly in-joked and probably unplayable *band.
(Though I have to admit, I'd probably have to try it at least once
for the heck of it.)
>You may perhaps be lucky in this.
Otto Martin - I'll have to remember that phrase, "thematically rich"
--
"There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may
change. And it is not our part here to take thought only for a season,
or for a few lives of men, or for a passing age of the world."
Gandalf, The Council of Elrond, The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien
Timo Pietilä
> Hey,
>
> I'm curious about the ratio of roguelike keyset to regular keyset players. So I
> thought I'd start a poll. I know this has been done before, but not recently,
> and I'm also wondering whether the newer players ever decide to play with
> roguelike commands. The first roguelike you play may also have an effect. Moria
> for instance only uses roguelikes. Please include the following:
>
About 20 years I think.
> b) What your first roguelike was.
I think it was Larn. Or Nethack in some of the university Unix-machines.
> c) What keyset you currently use.
non-roguelike.
> d) Whether you switched keysets at some point and why.
Because when I started playing some of the keyboards didn't have numpads
I must have switched at some point, but I have no clue when.
Timo Pietilä
nebul...@gmail.com
wrote:
> > Nine less keys to learn,
>
> Two keys. The rest follow logically.
What -- hjkl and whatever else? I think not. Since they bear no
obvious relation to any particular directions, the number is nine. And
that is not up for further debate.
> I was not saying you should not use the numpad, on the contrary I said
> maybe you should. I was replying to your repeated claim that there was
> no logic to the rougelike commands, and explaining why I prefer them.
I amend that claim. There is not only no logic to the roguelike
commands, but also apparently no logic to at least one of their more
extremist supporters. :P
> > Hrm. In response, and also to another post in this thread with a
> > snarky tone,
>
> Go back and read why you are getting "snarky" responses. [insult deleted]
You, who chooses to use a brain-dead set of keybindings that, if
traditional, lacks either internal logic or user-friendliness, dare to
call *me* stupid? :P
> > Your most commonly used apps do not require navigation, or worse,
> > force mouse use instead of giving you the option? Heck -- your most
> > common tasks do not include *text editing*??
>
> Keybindings. Control-n/p = next/prev line, etc.
Yuck. That's almost as bad as hjkl -- better if you don't like modes,
and worse if you don't like chords. Arrow keys beat those hands-down
either way, of course, even aside from being obvious to a newbie
instead of the newbie presented with a seemingly-unusable interface
that expects either loads of rote memorization or good skills at
guessing-games to be of any use. No chords and no modes, aka having
your cake and eating it too. Can't really argue against that!
> That's the fifth time in three messages you assume others' stupidity
> just because there is something you did not understand.
Stubbornness or wackiness, not stupidity.
> Of course those
> keys are bound. They are just less convenient than the ones I use.
> Again, hand movement. Which also can lead to a need to look at the
> keyboard when moving my hand back again.
Looking at the keyboard seems to be rather underrated by some people.
I find glancing down occasionally to save more time (in backtracking
and typo-correcting) than it costs (in glancing, which after all takes
only a fraction of a second). Mostly I don't need to do more than pay
attention to the keyboard in my peripheral vision without actually
taking my eyes off the screen, particularly when editing the
bottommost line of text in a box whose bottom is just above the
taskbar. This applies even when jumping occasionally to the arrows --
which is not frequent, since I tend to compose whole sentences in my
head, or at least phrases, and don't too often find myself wanting to
go back and insert or change something. Often when I do it's far
enough away that it's even faster to use the mouse. Even that doesn't
bother me at all; I just use whatever's fastest. A typo only a couple
characters back is quicker to backspace to and retype from that point;
further back a change is better made with the arrows, or if it's
almost exactly straight up from the leading edge of growth of the
text; elsewhere, the mouse comes into its own. It's nice to have a
whole group of navigation options, none of them non-intuitive and none
of them involving chording (ugh) or modes (bletch!)...
Felice
> Hey,
>
>
> a) How long you've been playing roguelikes.
>
a) 4 years
b) angband/nethack simultaneously
c) roguelike
d) no
regards,
Felice
Tom Hudson
or two
b) Hack (?) 20ya, Nethack 10ya, pulled back into the hobby by dwarf
fortress (but playing sang/crawl/incursion)
c) Regular on PC keyboards, rogue on laptops
d) Strongly prefer the regular keyset, but as an old vi fanatic
roguelike is acceptable and vastly preferable to mucking with laptop-
numpad-overlay-mode
Hallvard B Furuseth
> What -- hjkl and whatever else? I think not. Since they bear no
> obvious relation to any particular directions, the number is nine. And
> that is not up for further debate.
If this is a "debate", your debating technique of ignoring what I say
when it suits you leaves something to be desired.
If anyone who didn't know is interested in how to remember the roguelike
movement keys though, now I've told them.
> I amend that claim. There is not only no logic to the roguelike
> commands, but also apparently no logic to at least one of their more
> extremist supporters. :P
*plonk*
--
Hallvard
nebul...@gmail.com
wrote:
> nebulou...@gmail.com writes:
> > What -- hjkl and whatever else? I think not. Since they bear no
> > obvious relation to any particular directions, the number is nine. And
> > that is not up for further debate.
>
> If this is a "debate", your debating technique of ignoring what I say
> when it suits you leaves something to be desired.
Your technique of accusing me of disingenuous behavior without
evidence *definitely* leaves something to be desired.
> If anyone who didn't know is interested in how to remember the roguelike
> movement keys though, now I've told them.
No, you haven't. All you did was imply that the key for left arrow is
actually to the left of the key for right arrow, and you didn't say
even that much explicitly. :P