[Announce] Angband 3.0.8 prerelease

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Andrew Sidwell

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Jun 24, 2007, 3:02:14 PM6/24/07
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Angband is soon to have a new official release. Before that, though, I
want to put out a prerelease version for testing purposes. I believe
this version to be mostly bug-free and fairly consistent, but you may
find otherwise, and if you do, I want to know! If no problems are
found, I'll release 3.0.8 final without any modifications on 1st July.


Download at:

Source code: http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1.tar.gz
Windows: http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1-win.zip
RISC OS: http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1-ros.zip
(RISC OS version will be available later.)

No Mac OS X build has been made yet, but I'm sure one will be soon.

Please note that the source archive is now ~2.3MB, because I've included
graphics, fonts and sounds.


Quite a number of people have been involved in this version, and thanks
must be given to Hugo Kornelis, Pete Mack, Marco K and Frank Palazzolo,
Christer Nyfalt, Leon Marrick, Andrew Doull, Kenneth Boyd, Iain McFall,
Kiyoshi Aman, Christophe Cavalaria, Nick McConnell, and Brendon Oliver.

Special thanks go to Antony Sidwell for setting up http://rephial.org/,
which is the new home of Angband. It hosts the wiki, downloads, and the
Open Source effort, which centralises all of those bits nicely. Special
thanks also to Yendor for hosting the issue-tracker and source code
repository, which has been invaluable.

All gameplay options are now only alterable at birth. Be careful when
importing savefiles to make sure that the AI and scumming options are as
you want them for the entire game! And please keep backups of old
characters, just in case things do go wrong.

Changes
=======
(All changes from 3.0.6 are mentioned.)


Major visible changes
---------------------

- New splash screen.

- The Ey/Un-style knowledge browser has been imported. You can set
autoinscription settings through that browser now.

- Mouse support a la FAangband added, but nowhere near as advanced or
useful. Most of the menus you encounter can be selected using the
mouse now, as well as using keypresses. Clicking somewhere on the
map will now "walk" there, within certain constraints. It's a tad
bizarre in the town, but seems to work OK otherwise.

- Massive options clearout/reorganisation/redefaulting:
- many options have been removed (20 or so, I think)
- a large number have new default settings
- new option: remaining HP changes the colour of the '@' sign.
- new option: always pick up things matching an item in the inventory
- experience to next level always displayed until clev50
- macros/visuals/colours are now accessible (only) from the options
menu

- Sangband-style object handling, which makes it much easier to sift
through things in the dungeon.

- Item squelching support, EyAngband-style. Instead of being
automatically destroyed, items are instead marked with the inscription
"squelch" (if there is no already existing inscription), and all items
in your inventory and on the floor inscribed with this will be
destroyed if you press '!' at the "destroy" command.

You can set individual squelch settings for only those items which do
not get pseudo-ID'd. For those that do, you can choose to mark things
as "squelch" depending on the feeling you get when you first ID them
in that way. These categories are much broader than those found in
other variants; complain if necessary.

Worthless items and emptied chests are automatically inscribed with
"squelch", saving some micromanagement.

- Two kinds of ego-light added. You'll know when you find one; there's
no ID required to figure out if your lantern is special or not.

- Lights now don't use fuel in the daylight in the town.

- Amnesia (the monster attack) is now a timed effect (a la confusion),
and has makes you forget how to read scrolls/pray/cast spells one
time in two.

Potions of Healing, *Healing* and Life are the only three things which
will get rid of amnesia early, but it goes away within a few turns.
Please tell me if this is still too harsh.


Minor visible changes
---------------------
- Allow weapons and armour to be damaged instead of destroyed by
inventory damage effects, thus making swap weapons more viable.
- Browsing books now displays information about the spells therein, if
requested. As part of this, move spell names/descriptions/locations
out into a new file, spell.txt. (Hugo Kornelis)
- Arrow keys are now distinct from the numeric movement keys, and
because of this you can now edit text at prompts in game properly.
Supported on Windows, Mac (untested), and curses. If you get it
working for anything else, please send the patch!
- Resizing the game window automatically updates its contents, on
platforms which support this.
- Inscribing an item with '!t' will now confirm if you try to take it
off.
- If a stack of rods is recharging, you'll get a message when the first
rod is recharged and another message when they are all recharged.
There is no message when the second, third, etc., rod is recharged.
(Hugo Kornelis)
- The recharge notification will now disturb you if you have set the
option to be disturbed when boring things happen (disturb_minor) to
yes. (Hugo Kornelis)
- Add the recharging fix from V CVS -- things can now explode when you
recharge them once more.
- Added support for improved pluralization of object names. Allow
custom plurals for words which need them (e.g. "Kni|fe|ves" and
"M|ous|ic|e"). Unused at present. (Hugo Kornelis)
- Bugfix: Monsters that resist one or more of acid, lightning, fire,
cold, poison and water *and* resist one or more of nether, plasma,
nexus and disenchantment had two "it resists ..." sentences in the
monster info. (Hugo Kornelis)
- Bugfix: Sustain CON was reported before Sustain DEX in self knowledge.
Since DEX is reported before CON in all other situations, this is now
reversed. (Hugo Kornelis)
- Set wrapping width to 72 for character dumps' item information, to
avoid well-behaved newsreaders messing them up.
- Move back to pre-3.0.6 panel changing behaviour.
- Semi-rewrite of the store code; now uses a scrolling menu with a
slightly more streamlined interface. Bigscreen support in stores.
Ammo is treated in more aesthetically pleasing quantities.
General Store always stocks what it stocks now.
- Remove double-rate spellcasting with the smart_monsters option.
(imported from V CVS; Julian Lighton).
- '[' command displays a monster list in the main terminal window.
- "Enter" key brings up a little window in the middle of the screen,
from which you can select what command you would like to use. This
is inspired by (but not derived from) Hengband.
- Prompt for overwriting savefiles.
- Added echo to macro trigger entry.
- Restore some pre-Ben flavour text.


Major code cleanup
------------------

Most of the cleanup has been related to removing ancient or
non-functional cruft.

- A powerful generic menu interface has been added and used throughout
the code. It reduces code duplication and makes it much much easier
to create menus in various styles; e.g. scrolling or multicolumn.
See ui.c.
- Event handler added. (Menus can listen to each other, etc.)
- Lots and lots of code duplication removed:
- pref file dumping now has much less boilerplate
- the status line, sidebar, and term window update code is much more
streamlined.
- Nuked a lot of old ports: cap, lsl, sla, xpj, ibm, dos, vcs, lfb, ami,
emx, vme.
- Added a new SDL port by Iain McFall, based on the ToME and Sang ports.
- As a result of the above, makefiles considerably simplified. As many
makefiles as possible use a common list of source files in
"Makefile.src", which simplifies maintainance. Makefile.std has also
been rewritten and contains much less cruft.
- Timed player modifiers (blind, confused, etc.) are now kept in an
array, rather than being seperate variables in p_ptr. This simplifies
a *lot* of code, and makes it trivial to add new effects. The
majority of the work was done using sed scripts.
- Use a new autoconf/automake system, called OMK.
- Removed Lua.
- Charges for wands/staves are customisable in the lib/edit/ files.
- Considerably simplify and speed up main-gcu.c. (Thanks to Christer
Nyfalt.)
- Removed trivial-to-hack-around or non-functional compile-time options
(VERIFY_SAVEFILE, _TIMESTAMP, and _HONOR, CHECK_TIME).
- Combine the various h-*.h files into a single header file; remove a
lot of cruft, use C99 types when available,
- Clean up file locking, move file handling functions into z-file.c,
remove usleep() function, add a "portable" directory scanning
interface (works on Windows and Unixes at the moment), and
my_fexists().
- Use the safer string handling functions much more; the only use of
the "unsafe" built-ins are in the various main-* files.
- Split random name code from randart code into its own file with a bit
of a rewrite. Use this code for scroll names.
- Move lots of things out of defines.h to more appropriate places, like
h-basic.h and config.h.
- Replace various magic numbers with constants or N_ELEMENTS().
(Hallvard Furuseth)
- Use C99 types where appropriate (for bools and ints).
- Import Sangband's/Steamband's code to put chance of generating piles
of items in object.txt.
- Use tables of commands instead of a big switch, to allow doing thing
like the new command menu easily without duplication. (See cmd0.c.)
- Switch to new model for producing sound: instead of a TERM_XTRA_SOUND
hook, we now have a simple "sound_hook" which should be set to the
appropriate function to play a sound. Introduce a new modular system
for sound modules for ports that use main.c (for the future, in case
we want to use e.g. gstreamer). Allow sound to be toggled as an
in-game option.
- Remove hardcoded values for p_ptr->noscore.


Platform
--------
- Modernize Mac support; now works on OS X 10.3 onwards, but the old
main-mac has been removed, as has the MPW makefile. (Pete Mack)
- OSX font selection problem fixed.
- Add console mode patch for Windows (Frank Palazzolo). This is
basically playing the game in an old-school terminal window for
those who like uncluttered gameplay.
- main-x11 now reads window placement from x11-settings.prf.
- Fixed Windows bug where you can't move one of the font files after
having played a game this reboot. (Thanks to Leon Marrick.)
- Add platform-specific ifdefs to readdib.c and main-ami.c.
- Allow ^S without freezing the game on the console. (Hallvard
Furuseth)
- Mouse support on RISC OS.
- Sort out licences for the various fonts distributed with the game.
- Import the old DOS/IBM fonts for use in the Windows port.
- Include SDL_mixer sound module, useable on any port that uses the
main.c mechanism. Thanks to Brendon Oliver for the initial code
for this.


--
Andrew Sidwell
http://rephial.org/ -- the home of Angband

My email address changes monthly, and is the first three letters of the
month (in English), followed by the last two digits of the current year,
@entai.co.uk.

Eddie Grove

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Jun 24, 2007, 2:32:27 PM6/24/07
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Andrew Sidwell <ju...@entai.co.uk> writes:

> - Item squelching support, EyAngband-style. Instead of being
> automatically destroyed, items are instead marked with the inscription
> "squelch" (if there is no already existing inscription), and all items
> in your inventory and on the floor inscribed with this will be
> destroyed if you press '!' at the "destroy" command.

Oh well, no future V for me. I quit playing [Ey] over this. The whole point
of squelch is so that you can ignore junk. I want an implementation where
junk is invisible, not where I have to use ! repeatedly to clear every useless
item produced when I clear a pit with dispelEvil. I don't want messages when
monsters pick up junk. I don't want to be disturbed when I run and that takes
me adjacent to junk or through junk. Junk should not impinge on the game.

I've been wondering whether I should patch NPP or V. Now I know.


Eddie

Timo Pietilä

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Jun 24, 2007, 4:14:24 PM6/24/07
to
Andrew Sidwell wrote:

> - Amnesia (the monster attack) is now a timed effect (a la confusion),
> and has makes you forget how to read scrolls/pray/cast spells one
> time in two.

Uh. Does this mean that "The lock" is no longer "The lock"? This makes
amnesia one of the most dangerous effects in entire game. No more 100%
sure escape. Umbar brothers are now among "avoid at all costs" -group.

AAARRGHHHH! I just counted how many monsters have FORGET-flag: 25!
Including Sauron which cannot be avoided.

In practice this equals blindness-attack without resist except saving throw.

You either need to add resistance or one-turn cure for this effect.
Othervise it can be way too deadly.

Timo Pietilä

Timo Pietilä

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Jun 24, 2007, 4:18:06 PM6/24/07
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Timo Pietilä wrote:
> Andrew Sidwell wrote:
>
>> - Amnesia (the monster attack) is now a timed effect (a la confusion),
>> and has makes you forget how to read scrolls/pray/cast spells one
>> time in two.

> You either need to add resistance or one-turn cure for this effect.

> Othervise it can be way too deadly.

Earlier than potion of healing, that is. I don't like the fact that
monster can bypass the lock. Blindness, confusion and sound should be
only ones that can disrupt your spellcasting. This breaks one of the
fundamentals of the game.

Timo Pietilä

roger....@gmail.com

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Jun 24, 2007, 4:28:23 PM6/24/07
to
On Jun 24, 8:02 pm, Andrew Sidwell <j...@entai.co.uk> wrote:
> Angband is soon to have a new official release. Before that, though, I
> want to put out a prerelease version for testing purposes. I believe
> this version to be mostly bug-free and fairly consistent, but you may
> find otherwise, and if you do, I want to know! If no problems are
> found, I'll release 3.0.8 final without any modifications on 1st July.
>
> Download at:
>
> Source code: http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1.tar.gz
> Windows: http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1-win.zip
> RISC OS: http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1-ros.zip
> (RISC OS version will be available later.)
>
> No Mac OS X build has been made yet, but I'm sure one will be soon.

Firstly just a "Well Done", for getting a new release out :) Angband
is alive, progressing, adapting and changing. You've worked hard, and
it shows.

However, I do have to agree with the above posters about amnesia -
it's just a shade *too* deadly at the moment. Perhaps skew the odds a
little more in the player's favour by making it curable by a potion of
Cure Critical Wounds? If that's too much, then perhaps giving a potion
of Cure Critical Wounds a 50% chance to cure amnesia? Or allowing it
to be cured by Potions of Wisdom/Intelligence/Enlightenment.

Still, bloody well done!

Roger Barnett

-----
http://angband.calamarain.net/ - Tales From The Pit
The Angband Webcomic
-----

Twisted

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Jun 24, 2007, 6:24:21 PM6/24/07
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On Jun 24, 4:28 pm, "roger.barn...@gmail.com"
<roger.barn...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]

This was bound to be controversial. It will be fun to watch this all
shake out.

I have to agree about the amnesia. If it impacts spellcasting and
scroll reading it should be curable with CCW, and easy to prevent by
the late game. I have several ideas:

* Leave scroll reading alone.
* Have the effect be a chance of forgetting one or two spells, most
likely high level. Your most crucial reliable spells, if any, tend to
be lower level; and then there are warriors.
* Have just the effects on scrolls and/or spells curable with CCW.
* Or just make it a chance to confuse through resist?

And regardless:

* Double the influence of saving throw, so most characters save 100%
of the time against this before they encounter Sauron or any other
deep unique with S_FORGET.
* Or maybe provide a specific temporary resistance. Potions of Resist
Confusion say might provide temp confusion resistance earlier in the
game and amnesia resistance whenever needed. Or co-opt some existing
thing, such as potions of heroism or even bless/chant/prayer.
* Or, resist confusion (from equipment) prevents the "confusion-like"
effects that may occur 1 time in 2.
* One wacky possibility is to co-opt nexus resistance. As it is one
wants it or a perfect save when facing Sauron, lest one gets Sauron
down to one star only to receive the messages "Sauron gestures at your
feet. -more- You rise through the ceiling..."
* One could just give amnesia attacks a chance to randomly do nothing
extra, blind, confuse, cause fear, or cause hallucination, with
blindless, confusion, fear, and chaos resistance respectively
providing protection, as well as a second saving throw against the
additional side effect. (This is after you've already failed a saving
throw vs. amnesia.)

I'm certainly all for making amnesia more interesting while removing
the "have to identify everything again and re-explore the whole level"
tedium (and, for warriors, expense; warriors already have it tough
with a lack of free ranged attacks and free id, as things are!).

camlost

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Jun 24, 2007, 8:05:57 PM6/24/07
to
Timo Pietilä wrote:
>
> Uh. Does this mean that "The lock" is no longer "The lock"? This makes
> amnesia one of the most dangerous effects in entire game. No more 100%
> sure escape. Umbar brothers are now among "avoid at all costs" -group.

Um, don't play S. Sangband (and other 4GAI?) has brain smashing, which
can cause fear, blindness, confusion, stun, slowed, and/or take energy
from a player. And you basically can't do anything about it.

>
> AAARRGHHHH! I just counted how many monsters have FORGET-flag: 25!
> Including Sauron which cannot be avoided.
>
> In practice this equals blindness-attack without resist except saving
> throw.
>
> You either need to add resistance or one-turn cure for this effect.
> Othervise it can be way too deadly.

I would guess that most casters would be able to mostly avoid such
creatures, and melee types wouldn't suffer as much.

>
> Timo Pietilä

Antoine

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Jun 24, 2007, 8:27:53 PM6/24/07
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On Jun 25, 10:24 am, Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm certainly all for making amnesia more interesting while removing
> the "have to identify everything again and re-explore the whole level"
> tedium (and, for warriors, expense; warriors already have it tough
> with a lack of free ranged attacks and free id, as things are!).

What about it instead making you forget one chunk of the level (not
the chunk you're standing in) and one item 'flavour'?

That would maintain the amnesia 'forgetting what stuff is' component
while reducing the overall annoyance?

A.

Phil Cartwright

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Jun 24, 2007, 8:36:45 PM6/24/07
to

None of you suggested a chance to drain experience, which also is
in-theme for amnesia and could cause spell forgetting or similar.
Personally I like twister's suggestion of a chance to confuse, blind,
drug, terrify, or whatever, maybe with drain-XP as another option on
that list. Of course we don't want to make it really hugely annoying or
damaging. Might as well just make all those enemies breathe time instead
if that's what you want. Or put it back the way it was. ;-)


--
There's only four things you can be certain of: taxes, change, spam, and
death.

Billy Bissette

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Jun 24, 2007, 10:19:49 PM6/24/07
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Twisted <twist...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182723861.165787.164420
@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

> I'm certainly all for making amnesia more interesting while removing
> the "have to identify everything again and re-explore the whole level"
> tedium (and, for warriors, expense; warriors already have it tough
> with a lack of free ranged attacks and free id, as things are!).

Would it be possible to make Amnesia temporarily reduce the effective
character level? Not by the Drain Experience route of actually dropping
the level, but perhaps some kind of estimated skill reduction? A level
30 Wizard hit by Amnesia might temporarily be treated as if he were CL20.
His spell failure rates might increase, he might lose access to his
highest level spells (now beyond his capability,) etc. A Warrior might
be a less effective fighter. Experience gained would be treated as
normal, as the current level hasn't really been altered.


Heck, making forgetting the whole dungeon level might not be as bad
if Amnesia were a time-out effect. At the moment the character is made
to forget, save the known map. When the effect runs out, combine the
saved map with the current known map, so that the character "remembers"
any forgotten squares that he hadn't re-explored.

Nick

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Jun 24, 2007, 10:59:14 PM6/24/07
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On 2007-06-24 20:32:27, Eddie Grove <eddie...@hotmail.com> wrote:

OK, so how about a 4-tier squelching system:

Weak: Like current V squelching. Items always appear, have to be manually
squelched.

Strong: Like current NPP squelching. Items can be made to appear as a purple
dot, and can be silently destroyed on walking on with appropriate (pseudo-)id,
but otherwise act exactly as if unsquelched.

Extreme: As for strong, plus after level generation (and acceptance if using
autoscum) squelched items are silently removed. Possibly the same thing happens
with monster drops - the drop is generated as usual, then silently has
squelching rules applied before the items actually appear.

Eddie: Includes all features of extreme. Everything is generated identified.
There is an automated "player recall" system, something like monster recall,
which decides at what point in the game the player will want to squelch a given
item and immediately silently set it to squelch (this will apply from everything
from Potions of Slowness right up to whether that Mace of Disruption of Extra
Attacks is enchanted enough to be a good swap). After level generation, all
monsters which would be trivial to kill will automatically and silently commit
suicide, leaving any unsquelched drop in a neat pile on the ground in a
player-configured order. Gold is squelchable.

Did I miss anything? :)

Nick.
--
"There is no safety, and there is no end. The word must be heard in silence;
there must be darkness to see the stars. The dance is always danced above the
hollow place, above the terrible abyss."
- The Farthest Shore, Ursula Le Guin

will_asher

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Jun 25, 2007, 2:05:02 AM6/25/07
to

Look at it as slightly changing one of the fundamentals of the game. I think it
is an appropriate change. Most monsters that have FORGET are late enough for
people to have healing potions. Making healing potions more common would be
nice to go along with this change, though.

Eddie Grove

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Jun 25, 2007, 1:22:44 AM6/25/07
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Nick <nckmc...@yahoo.com.au> writes:

> On 2007-06-24 20:32:27, Eddie Grove <eddie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Andrew Sidwell writes:
> >
> > > - Item squelching support, EyAngband-style. Instead of being
> > > automatically destroyed, items are instead marked with the inscription
> > > "squelch" (if there is no already existing inscription), and all items
> > > in your inventory and on the floor inscribed with this will be
> > > destroyed if you press '!' at the "destroy" command.
> >
> > Oh well, no future V for me. I quit playing [Ey] over this. The whole point
> > of squelch is so that you can ignore junk. I want an implementation where
> > junk is invisible, not where I have to use ! repeatedly to clear every useless
> > item produced when I clear a pit with dispelEvil. I don't want messages when
> > monsters pick up junk. I don't want to be disturbed when I run and that takes
> > me adjacent to junk or through junk. Junk should not impinge on the game.
> >
> > I've been wondering whether I should patch NPP or V. Now I know.
>
> OK, so how about a 4-tier squelching system:
>
> Weak: Like current V squelching. Items always appear, have to be manually
> squelched.

You mean future V squelch, which will require three keypresses.
Current 3.0.7 squelch is automatic.

> Strong: Like current NPP squelching. Items can be made to appear as a purple
> dot, and can be silently destroyed on walking on with appropriate (pseudo-)id,
> but otherwise act exactly as if unsquelched.

I am opposed to "detect artifact using kill command". Purple dots are bogus.
Otherwise this is barely minimally ok.

> Extreme: As for strong, plus after level generation (and acceptance if using
> autoscum) squelched items are silently removed. Possibly the same thing happens
> with monster drops - the drop is generated as usual, then silently has
> squelching rules applied before the items actually appear.

I am opposed to this too. If you squelch !restoreDex, then get dex drained
by time hound even though you have sustains, when you unsquelch !restoreDex
any potions you have been ignoring should appear on the screen.

*** Squelch should be about ignoring, not about removing or destructing. ***

> Eddie: Includes all features of extreme. Everything is generated
> identified.

This is almost diametrically opposed to what I want. While I am opposed to
the identify spell, I believe in learning by testing, not by generating
identified. Egos should be learned sort of like flavors. To-hit and to-dam
modifiers should be apparent when you pick up a weapon, but I have never
proposed generating things identified. In fact, I don't think you should
see damage dice until you pick up a weapon.

> There is an automated "player recall" system, something like monster recall,
> which decides at what point in the game the player will want to squelch a given
> item and immediately silently set it to squelch (this will apply from everything
> from Potions of Slowness right up to whether that Mace of Disruption of Extra
> Attacks is enchanted enough to be a good swap). After level generation, all
> monsters which would be trivial to kill will automatically and silently commit
> suicide, leaving any unsquelched drop in a neat pile on the ground in a
> player-configured order.

All wrong.

BTW, there is a game where overly wimpy opps commit suicide when you walk near
them at high levels. My friends tell me that that is the best part of the game.

> Gold is squelchable.

Yes, in that you should be able to make it invisible, but even squelched gold
should be picked up silently and added to your purse when you cross it.


I am sorry to clutter this thread with what promises to be a long contentious
discussion of squelch, but I couldn't leave such wrongheaded suggestions of my
opinions on these matters without response.


Eddie

Timo Pietilä

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Jun 25, 2007, 3:24:22 AM6/25/07
to
camlost wrote:
> Timo Pietilä wrote:
>>
>> Uh. Does this mean that "The lock" is no longer "The lock"? This makes
>> amnesia one of the most dangerous effects in entire game. No more 100%
>> sure escape. Umbar brothers are now among "avoid at all costs" -group.
>
> Um, don't play S. Sangband (and other 4GAI?) has brain smashing, which
> can cause fear, blindness, confusion, stun, slowed, and/or take energy
> from a player. And you basically can't do anything about it.

You can have resistances to the effect. Also you can get saving throw
but not for 100% sure case like in vanilla. You also can cure most of
the effects by simple CCW potion (slowing and fear are exceptions).

Also I don't think there are any brain-smashing monsters before
stat-gain in Sang. At least nothing has used brain smash against my
high-elf karateka yet and it is soon at 2000'.

>> AAARRGHHHH! I just counted how many monsters have FORGET-flag: 25!
>> Including Sauron which cannot be avoided.
>>
>> In practice this equals blindness-attack without resist except saving
>> throw.
>>
>> You either need to add resistance or one-turn cure for this effect.
>> Othervise it can be way too deadly.
>
> I would guess that most casters would be able to mostly avoid such
> creatures, and melee types wouldn't suffer as much.

You can't. At least not Sauron. And one of the ringwraiths has this too.
Also this is *common* spell for monsters after stat-gain and it can
appear way before stat-gain, which means you would need to avoid too
many monsters for it to be reasonable. Because it appears that soon *at
least* cure needs to be potion of CCW or CSW. Not healing.

Consider this: Priest that should not have any problems against orc
group. There is one of the uniques in that group so you enter the room.

Surprise! there is memory moss there and because it is not evil you
didn't detect it. Suddenly you don't have any weapons to handle those
orcs. You can't escape with portal and can't blink. Can't read recall or
teleport. You didn't have money for teleport staff or it did get burned.
Or this simply is too early for that to be in your gear. And that moss
keeps on blasting you with amnesia. Can't kill it because orcs are in
the way.

Or lets make this much worse. There is Ethereal Dragon nearby and you
know you you can't handle it so you should avoid it. You carefully try
to go around it because you see a longsword 4d5 near it. Surprise! There
is a memory moss. And that Ethereal Dragon wakes up. Now what do you do?
Press @ to confirm suicide by frustration -more- ?
Killed by memory moss. Now that is what should read in tombstone.

For spellcasters:
Omarax becomes too dangerous to handle
Thuringwethil becomes too dangerous to handle
Angel uniques become too dangerous to handle
Vecna and Feathwath become too dangerous to handle

And of course anything with S_MONSTERS become pretty much too dangerous
to handle.

This also makes jelly pits completely impossible to handle. (yet another
reason to remove them from game).

Timo Pietilä

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 3:46:04 AM6/25/07
to
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:36:45 -0400, Phil Cartwright
<pca...@nospam.phony.com> wrote:

>None of you suggested a chance to drain experience, which also is
>in-theme for amnesia and could cause spell forgetting or similar.

That would be redundant with other attack forms. I think the map loss is
fine; you don't have to explore the whole level, anyway. Maybe just
forget equipment, but not inventory, that hasn't been *ID*ed -- the
tactical component of amnesia is the loss of activations from non-*ID*ed
equipment and that's worth keeping. As for spells, amnesia might cause
you to randomly forget a single spell. That wouldn't be too bad.

--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Paul is dead!

Nick

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 5:09:58 AM6/25/07
to
On 2007-06-25 07:22:44, Eddie Grove <eddie...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Nick writes:
> > Weak: Like current V squelching. Items always appear, have to be manually
> > squelched.
>
> You mean future V squelch, which will require three keypresses.
> Current 3.0.7 squelch is automatic.

Yes, OK; I meant the new version.

> > Extreme: As for strong, plus after level generation (and acceptance if using
> > autoscum) squelched items are silently removed. Possibly the same thing happens
> > with monster drops - the drop is generated as usual, then silently has
> > squelching rules applied before the items actually appear.
>
> I am opposed to this too. If you squelch !restoreDex, then get dex drained
> by time hound even though you have sustains, when you unsquelch !restoreDex
> any potions you have been ignoring should appear on the screen.
>
> *** Squelch should be about ignoring, not about removing or destructing. ***

OK, so squelched items would be invisible unless you unsquelch them?

> I am sorry to clutter this thread with what promises to be a long contentious
> discussion of squelch, but I couldn't leave such wrongheaded suggestions of my
> opinions on these matters without response.

I don't think it's clutter at all - it's been one of the more controversial
issues for some time, and I think it merits discussion when there's been a
largish change like this. While my last suggestion was mostly a lame attempt at
humour, I was also trying to progress the whole ID/squelch issue, at least in my
own mind. I'm still not entirely happy with any implementation I've seen yet
(although on the whole I probably like the NPP one best).

magnate

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 5:30:07 AM6/25/07
to
On Jun 25, 10:09 am, Nick <nckmccn...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> On 2007-06-25 07:22:44, Eddie Grove <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Nick writes:
> > > Weak: Like current V squelching. Items always appear, have to be manually
> > > squelched.
>
> > You mean future V squelch, which will require three keypresses.
> > Current 3.0.7 squelch is automatic.
>
> Yes, OK; I meant the new version.
>
> > > Extreme: As for strong, plus after level generation (and acceptance if using
> > > autoscum) squelched items are silently removed. Possibly the same thing happens
> > > with monster drops - the drop is generated as usual, then silently has
> > > squelching rules applied before the items actually appear.
>
> > I am opposed to this too. If you squelch !restoreDex, then get dex drained
> > by time hound even though you have sustains, when you unsquelch !restoreDex
> > any potions you have been ignoring should appear on the screen.
>
> > *** Squelch should be about ignoring, not about removing or destructing. ***

YES. This is the perfect summary.

> OK, so squelched items would be invisible unless you unsquelch them?
>
> > I am sorry to clutter this thread with what promises to be a long contentious
> > discussion of squelch, but I couldn't leave such wrongheaded suggestions of my
> > opinions on these matters without response.
>
> I don't think it's clutter at all - it's been one of the more controversial
> issues for some time, and I think it merits discussion when there's been a
> largish change like this. While my last suggestion was mostly a lame attempt at
> humour, I was also trying to progress the whole ID/squelch issue, at least in my
> own mind. I'm still not entirely happy with any implementation I've seen yet
> (although on the whole I probably like the NPP one best).

I agree almost completely with Eddie: squelching is about saving
keypresses, so the Ey implementation really doesn't achieve much,
because you still have to press two keys (k!) every time you want to
squelch stuff. I won't be using it either - and sadly the venerable
Blackston squelch patch is almost certainly not going to compile with
the new V, so I too won't be going back to V.

The only area where I disagree with Eddie is that I see *nothing*
wrong with purple dots. Purple dots are items I'm not interested in,
so I can ignore them (and if I walk over them they will get tidied up,
i.e. destroyed). If I need a squelched item (e.g. !restoreDex after
draining), I can look for it by examining the purple dots, or I can
unsquelch it and see if any of the dots turns into a potion.

I really don't see why having squelched items invisible instead of as
purple dots makes any difference at all. To me it actually makes
things worse - I don't want to pick up squelched items, but I want to
see where they are. Also I think invisible items are tantamount to
destroyed-on-generation, which is a no-no as per the above summary.

Must get back to work, but agree with Nick that this is important.

CC

pete m

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 10:06:32 AM6/25/07
to
On Jun 24, 10:22 pm, Eddie Grove wrote:

> I am sorry to clutter this thread with what promises to be a long contentious
> discussion of squelch, but I couldn't leave such wrongheaded suggestions of my
> opinions on these matters without response.
>

I agree with you, although I have no problem with "purple dots"
myself. NPP squelch is more than adequate. I too was unpleasantly
surprised to see that squelch now requires two keystrokes where it
previously required none. I am hoping this gets backed out before the
final release. (It was thrown in very late in development, sometime in
the last two weeks.)

pete m

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 10:32:35 AM6/25/07
to
Timo Pietilä wrote:

> Consider this: Priest that should not have any problems against orc
> group. There is one of the uniques in that group so you enter the room.
>
> Surprise! there is memory moss there and because it is not evil you
> didn't detect it. Suddenly you don't have any weapons to handle those
> orcs. You can't escape with portal and can't blink. Can't read recall or
> teleport. You didn't have money for teleport staff or it did get burned.
> Or this simply is too early for that to be in your gear. And that moss
> keeps on blasting you with amnesia. Can't kill it because orcs are in
> the way.

Timo -- I rarely suffer more than a handful of successful Amnesia
attacks in a game, and they are rarely associated with a dangerous
situation. Losing lock is a bit scary, but not nearly to the extent
you make it out, because Amnesia attacks are rare. (25 monsters,
including ~7 dangerous non-uniques and ~5 dangerous uniques. Compare
this with ~120 monsters with various confusion attacks--you are just
getting hammered with it all game long. You should be able to work
around amnesia; working around confusion is just not possible.)

And things like the orc problem you mention just aren't that
dangerous--just leave the room, and you are safe. Or shoot the moss
with an arrow--even a priest can't miss. As for Vecna/Sauron--I
generally carry !Healing when I am killing them, unless I am playing
Priest/Paladin. It won't make much difference to start carrying it
for them as well. And Priest generally has an extremely good (or
perfect) saving throw by the time I take on Vecna.

I like the idea of a rare but dangerous new attack mode.

Eddie Grove

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 11:01:19 AM6/25/07
to
magnate <chr...@dbass.demon.co.uk> writes:

> The only area where I disagree with Eddie is that I see *nothing*
> wrong with purple dots. Purple dots are items I'm not interested in,
> so I can ignore them (and if I walk over them they will get tidied up,
> i.e. destroyed).

Squelching should be the ultimate in "tidied up". There shouldn't be any more
to do.

I am opposed because when you are running by them, you stop.

I am opposed because when I use the 'l'ook command to check everything on the
screen, I don't want to have to space through junk items.

I used to squelch all armor/weapons late in the game, and run around stepping
on dots to see what was an artifact. I've decided this is a bad thing.

They are just plain yucky! That's an aesthetic observation.


> I don't want to pick up squelched items, but I want to
> see where they are.

For those kind of items, NPP style set to "do not pickup" works. I do that
with restore potions [since I cannot squelch and later unsquelch without fear
of destroying them by accident].

It's not the same thing as squelching scrolls of trap detection when I am
carrying 9 rods that do the job, or squelching 100% junk items like ruined
chests, or squelching non-ego torches when I have the Phial, or
MagicForBeginners with a warrior at 4900'. I do not want to see where those
items are.


Eddie

Timo Pietilä

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Jun 25, 2007, 2:38:18 PM6/25/07
to
will_asher wrote:
> On 2007-06-24 22:18:06, Timo Pietilä <timo.p...@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
>> Timo Pietilä wrote:
>>> Andrew Sidwell wrote:
>>>
>>>> - Amnesia (the monster attack) is now a timed effect (a la confusion),
>>>> and has makes you forget how to read scrolls/pray/cast spells one
>>>> time in two.
>>> You either need to add resistance or one-turn cure for this effect.
>>> Othervise it can be way too deadly.
>> Earlier than potion of healing, that is. I don't like the fact that
>> monster can bypass the lock. Blindness, confusion and sound should be
>> only ones that can disrupt your spellcasting. This breaks one of the
>> fundamentals of the game.
>>
>> Timo Pietilä
>
> Look at it as slightly changing one of the fundamentals of the game.

That is not slight change. The lock has been there from frog-knows.
Breaking it means removing the lock, not changing it.

> I think it
> is an appropriate change. Most monsters that have FORGET are late enough for
> people to have healing potions. Making healing potions more common would be
> nice to go along with this change, though.

You would need to make them *A LOT* more common then. Vampire, Mind
flayer, Angel and Ring mimic are before stat-gain monsters with it and
at stat-gain you get Memory moss, Shade, Spectre, Phantom, Greater mummy
and Master vampire. Later more. And I didn't count uniques.

Problem is that those are very common monsters. Some of them good source
of XP and items, some are very hard to avoid (PASS_WALL, invisibles).
Those also are common stuff to get summoned. Anything with S_UNDEAD can
summon one of those.

Timo Pietilä

Timo Pietilä

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 2:59:42 PM6/25/07
to
pete m wrote:
> Timo Pietilä wrote:
>
>> Consider this: Priest that should not have any problems against orc
>> group. There is one of the uniques in that group so you enter the room.
>>
>> Surprise! there is memory moss there and because it is not evil you
>> didn't detect it. Suddenly you don't have any weapons to handle those
>> orcs. You can't escape with portal and can't blink. Can't read recall or
>> teleport. You didn't have money for teleport staff or it did get burned.
>> Or this simply is too early for that to be in your gear. And that moss
>> keeps on blasting you with amnesia. Can't kill it because orcs are in
>> the way.
>
> Timo -- I rarely suffer more than a handful of successful Amnesia
> attacks in a game, and they are rarely associated with a dangerous
> situation.

Problem is that it is way too common form of attack. It can happen
pretty much anywhere anytime unless you have 100% saving throw.
Situation for amnesia attack this far has not been dangerous because
amnesia is not dangerous. You don't assosiate it to danger that happens
two turns later because you are not hindered by this suggested form of
amnesia.

Of course this is mostly not the case of warrior-type and because you
play divers you don't know what it can be for pure spellcasters.

> Compare
> this with ~120 monsters with various confusion attacks--you are just
> getting hammered with it all game long. You should be able to work
> around amnesia; working around confusion is just not possible.)

Confusion can be dealt with resistance and CCW which are workarounds for
confusion. And you are right, you *SHOULD* be able to work around
amnesia. How do you do that without perfect saving? That's right. You
don't. Not until you have lots and lots of healing potions.

> And things like the orc problem you mention just aren't that
> dangerous--just leave the room, and you are safe.

If you can. I hope you can. You can't use spells. That means that as
long as amnesia is active you are vulnerable. Very vulnerable.

> Or shoot the moss
> with an arrow--even a priest can't miss.

Except when there is monsters between that moss and you.

> I like the idea of a rare but dangerous new attack mode.

I don't. Not this kind of attack.

Timo Pietilä

Steve Clark

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Jun 25, 2007, 3:15:33 PM6/25/07
to
In article <f5nlue$2jsa$1...@news.vol.cz>,

Erm. Isn't there a saving throw against amnesia? Surely that would
mitigate most of the effects for high level Spellcasters and I notice it
doesn't affect sticks so you can take out that pesky memory moss with a
wand of stinking cloud.


PS. I agree with Eddie that making squelching more complicated is not the
way to go.

--
Steve Clark

{sjc...@ormail.co.uk using a 129Mb SA 6.06 RiscPC}

Elsairon

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Jun 25, 2007, 3:36:44 PM6/25/07
to
"Steve Clark" <sjc...@ormail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4ef8a15a...@ormail.co.uk...

> In article <f5nlue$2jsa$1...@news.vol.cz>,
> will_asher <will_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2007-06-24 22:18:06, Timo Pietilä <timo.p...@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
>> > Timo Pietilä wrote:
>> > > Andrew Sidwell wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> - Amnesia (the monster attack) is now a timed effect (a la
>> > >> confusion), and has makes you forget how to read
>> > >> scrolls/pray/cast spells one time in two.
>> >
>> > > You either need to add resistance or one-turn cure for this effect.
>> > > Othervise it can be way too deadly.

I think this is the most sane solution, if we want to keep the effect.

>> > Earlier than potion of healing, that is. I don't like the fact that
>> > monster can bypass the lock. Blindness, confusion and sound should be
>> > only ones that can disrupt your spellcasting. This breaks one of the
>> > fundamentals of the game.
>> >
>> > Timo Pietilä
>
>> Look at it as slightly changing one of the fundamentals of the game. I
>> think it is an appropriate change. Most monsters that have FORGET are
>> late enough for people to have healing potions. Making healing potions
>> more common would be nice to go along with this change, though.
>
> Erm. Isn't there a saving throw against amnesia? Surely that would
> mitigate most of the effects for high level Spellcasters and I notice it
> doesn't affect sticks so you can take out that pesky memory moss with a
> wand of stinking cloud.
>
>
> PS. I agree with Eddie that making squelching more complicated is not the
> way to go.
>

Using k! is better than destroying each individual item, but
having all squelched items not visible/pick-upable is much
better for lessening keystrokes. (which is the whole point
of squelch, no?)

A toggle [see/not see] squelched might give both camps solution.
--
Elsairon


Timo Pietilä

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Jun 25, 2007, 3:40:53 PM6/25/07
to
Steve Clark wrote:
> In article <f5nlue$2jsa$1...@news.vol.cz>,
> will_asher <will_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2007-06-24 22:18:06, Timo Pietilä <timo.p...@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
>>> Timo Pietilä wrote:
>>>> Andrew Sidwell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> - Amnesia (the monster attack) is now a timed effect (a la
>>>>> confusion), and has makes you forget how to read
>>>>> scrolls/pray/cast spells one time in two.
>>>> You either need to add resistance or one-turn cure for this effect.
>>>> Othervise it can be way too deadly.
>>> Earlier than potion of healing, that is. I don't like the fact that
>>> monster can bypass the lock. Blindness, confusion and sound should be
>>> only ones that can disrupt your spellcasting. This breaks one of the
>>> fundamentals of the game.
>>>
>>> Timo Pietilä
>
>> Look at it as slightly changing one of the fundamentals of the game. I
>> think it is an appropriate change. Most monsters that have FORGET are
>> late enough for people to have healing potions. Making healing potions
>> more common would be nice to go along with this change, though.
>
> Erm. Isn't there a saving throw against amnesia? Surely that would
> mitigate most of the effects for high level Spellcasters

For priests yes. Mages OTOH can have surprisingly low saving throw very
long into game. 30+race+0.9/lvl+Wis-bonus.

> and I notice it
> doesn't affect sticks so you can take out that pesky memory moss with a
> wand of stinking cloud.

That would require carrying YAmore item in inventory. But if change is
done maybe you need to carry staffs of teleportation and some powerful
ball-spell rods/wands.

> PS. I agree with Eddie that making squelching more complicated is not the
> way to go.

I haven't tried it, but for sound of it that did sound like a bad thing.
NPP squelch was good one and it was in 3.0.7s3. I don't know why they
choose to change that.

There is one very bad thing mentioned:

"Worthless items and emptied chests are automatically inscribed with
"squelch", saving some micromanagement."

If I have *remove curse* and enchant weapon I might want to keep Morgul
bows. Those have See_inv which makes them possibly very good if you can
enchant them up.

Timo Pietilä

Eddie Grove

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Jun 25, 2007, 3:15:42 PM6/25/07
to
Timo Pietilä <timo.p...@helsinki.fi> writes:

> There is one very bad thing mentioned:
>
> "Worthless items and emptied chests are automatically inscribed with
> "squelch", saving some micromanagement."
>
> If I have *remove curse* and enchant weapon I might want to keep Morgul
> bows. Those have See_inv which makes them possibly very good if you can
> enchant them up.

Actually, ordinary rCurse works on bows, no need for the * version.

You can get around this problem by auto-inscripting bows. I auto-inscript the
big 3 weapons with "no" [anything will do] so that they don't ever squelch.
OTOH, there really needs to be a setting to squelch good/avg/cursed items, but
not to squelch worthless.


Eddie

Nick

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Jun 25, 2007, 4:29:24 PM6/25/07
to
Congratulations, Andrew - there are apparently only two changes people aren't
happy with :)

Some suggestions for those:
Amnesia - how about making it a possible side effect of chaos attacks, then
making RChaos cover it (maybe someone else suggested that - imitation is the
sincerest form of flattery...)? And I think healable by !CCW would be fair,
too. I agree with Timo that it's quite a common occurrence - Angels and
Vampires (sounds like a TV show) are the most frequent culprits.

Squelch - this is really just a UI issue, IMHO, and one which people are very
particular about. I would argue that this is one case where _more_ options are
needed. It should not be too hard to make everyone happy (except the people who
are religiously opposed to all squelching).

Antony Sidwell

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Jun 25, 2007, 5:40:48 PM6/25/07
to
Timo Pietilä wrote:

> I haven't tried it, but for sound of it that did sound like a bad thing.
> NPP squelch was good one and it was in 3.0.7s3. I don't know why they
> choose to change that.

I'll quote this from the comment at the top of squelch.c, which sounds
like it's Andrew's reasoning for the change between versions, though I'm
sure he'll post himself before long:

"The squelch code has a long history. Originally it started out as a
simple sval-dependent item destroyer, but then ego-item and quality
squelch was added too, and then squelched items on the dungeon floor
were marked by purple dots, and by this time the code was quite
unmaintainable and pretty much impossible to work with."

So whether this is the final solution for squelch in V I'm not sure, it
might just be that this version is more amenable to being altered in the
future to something better.


For myself, I'd've been happy with no squelch at all, but if we're
having it, I find the current solution is fine for destroying things
you're carrying. I'd prefer Eddie's "just hide the stuff" approach for
stuff you've not picked up, though, and would hope for that in the
future if squelch is here to stay.

As he says, if you're doing it, do it properly, and make it so that
things you consider junk don't interfere with any part of the game, be
that running or even your view of the things that do interest you.
Ignoring them is what you want to do, so ignoring them is what should be
catered for. Otherwise it's like having using an /ignore command on IRC
because someone's chattering inanely, but still having the program tell
you when someone says something, just not what they've said. It's
pointless, annoying, and clutters up your view of things you do want to
read.

I don't see any advantage to having an actual auto-destroy for things
you aren't interested in, that just brings up the whole "should it take
a turn, should it not, does that give an advantage or not" sort of
question. Feel free to enlighten me as to the advantages though,
because I'm sure someone can see one (or more!)

The down side I can see would be that you would lose the best bit about
squelch, which is the idea that merely by treading on a pile of armour,
weaponry or whatever you erase it from existence with a satisfying
*squelch* sound.

Phil Cartwright

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Jun 25, 2007, 6:08:39 PM6/25/07
to
Eddie Grove wrote:
> It's not the same thing as squelching scrolls of trap detection when I am
> carrying 9 rods that do the job, or squelching 100% junk items like ruined
> chests, or squelching non-ego torches when I have the Phial, or
> MagicForBeginners with a warrior at 4900'. I do not want to see where those
> items are.

Well, then, isn't the fix simple?
- Dump the "destroy" command entirely.
- Squelch has two levels, "boring" and "junk". Spots with no interesting
items but some boring items become purple (or whatever) dots. Spots with
only "junk" look like normal floor. Neither disturbs your running, and
the latter don't attract the "l" command (but can be manually targeted).
If modern versions still do compacting, junk is compacted first, then
boring, before anything else.
- Stepping on purple dots or "junk" has no blatant effect and nothing is
destroyed. Autopickup rules and the like ignore the affected items
whether the spot also has interesting items or not. Any spot with items,
however it looks, allows manual pickups and manual examination of the
list of items.
- Changing object types among interesting, boring, and junk promptly
updates the display appropriately. Floor dots may turn purple or develop
an object symbol, or vice versa.
- Objects with no resale value can be automatically classified as junk,
and {good} weapons as boring once yours is {excellent}, though you might
want to override this. That not-enchanted-enough mace of disruption of
extra attacks, given a few enchant weapon scrolls, might be a contender.
In a band that has reforging or scrolls of artifact creation a plain
mace of disruption might be very interesting indeed even if it's (+0,+0)
and you're tooling around with a Bastard Sword of Westernesse (3d6)
(+23,+27) (+2) or Holy Avenger (3d6) (+23,+27) (+4).

Phil Cartwright

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 6:17:28 PM6/25/07
to
Phil Cartwright wrote:
> - Stepping on purple dots or "junk" has no blatant effect and nothing is
> destroyed. Autopickup rules and the like ignore the affected items
> whether the spot also has interesting items or not. Any spot with items,
> however it looks, allows manual pickups and manual examination of the
> list of items.

A further suggestion: the list should color-code junk as grey, and shove
it to the end of the list, and color-code "boring" as purple and shove
it above the junk but after everything interesting. (Purple or whatever
-- make it match the dot color, in case you go with something other than
purple to differentiate it from the existing purple dot squelch.)

momo125

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Jun 25, 2007, 6:44:31 PM6/25/07
to
My favorite squelsh is NPP.
Auto kill unwanted items and non egos (with good Psuedo). I can set it to not
destroy restores and then just quaff them when I walk on them.
I don't like purple dots and not showing on the screen make treasure rooms look
smaller

Hugo Kornelis

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Jun 25, 2007, 7:01:37 PM6/25/07
to
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:02:14 GMT, Andrew Sidwell wrote:

>Angband is soon to have a new official release.

Hi Andrew,

Congratulation on -almost- releasing a new official version of Angband.
It's been too long, due to the confustion about maintainership, since
the last release.

>Changes
>=======
>(All changes from 3.0.6 are mentioned.)
(snip)

The list is impressive, and I like most of the changes. I don't have
time to test (heck, I barely have time to play anymore), but I am
looking forward to seeing most of the UI changes in practice.

To add my two cents to the squelching debate, I have played NPP and like
it's implementation of squelch. I haven't played Ey, but based on your
description I think I like it's style of squelching less. I plea for
changing the squelch implementation to NPP style.

For the rest, it looks like I'm going to have to do some work to update
the spoilers for 3.0.8, and LOTS of work to either move changes to my
"work in progress" Dutch version of Angband or retranslate all sources
(but I will definitely base Dutch Angband -if I ever get to finish this
project- on 3.0.8 rather than 3.0.6, if only for the mouse support).

Thanks for taking up the role of maintainer and providing the community
with a new version of Angband to play (and to grumble about <g>).

Best, Hugo

--
Angband spoilers: http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/index.htm
Angband UI Patch: http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/UIpatch/index.htm
--

Strike & Co.

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 2:57:41 PM6/25/07
to
Tangent from the 'purple dot' discussion...

Eddie Grove wrote:
>
> I used to squelch all armor/weapons late in the game, and run around stepping
> on dots to see what was an artifact. I've decided this is a bad thing.

Why?
Once I get decent kit, I'm used to breaking everything to find
artifacts; what's so bad about that?

-Strike & Co.

Eddie Grove

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 9:35:37 PM6/25/07
to

I consider it abuse, that's all. I think the 'k'ill command should just
delete the item from the game, artifact or not. If preserve on, unided, the
artifact can be regenerated. It is absurd to think that a starting hobbit
rogue could destroy platearmor in one player turn, which is the implicit
current situation. IMO 'k' is shorthand for drop and ignore permanently.

Of course, I think staves of perception should perform strong pseudo on
everything in LOS, or there should be some equivalent to that.
You can be sure I hate wading through junk more than most people.


Eddie

Phil Cartwright

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 2:07:44 AM6/26/07
to
Eddie Grove wrote:
> It is absurd to think that a starting hobbit
> rogue could destroy platearmor in one player turn, which is the implicit
> current situation.

Sure he can -- he has a torch or lantern, right? :)

I basically agree though -- and said elsewhere "remove the destroy
command and make a true ignoring-stuff-squelch".

Hallvard B Furuseth

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 10:05:30 AM6/26/07
to
Timo Pietilä writes:
> That is not slight change. The lock has been there from
> frog-knows. Breaking it means removing the lock, not changing it.

What's the lock?

--
Regards,
Hallvard

camlost

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 10:13:53 AM6/26/07
to
Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> Timo Pietilä writes:
>> That is not slight change. The lock has been there from
>> frog-knows. Breaking it means removing the lock, not changing it.
>
> What's the lock?
>

If you have free action and resistance to sound, confusion, and
blindness, I don't think there's anything that can increase your fail
rates on spells or prevent you from casting spells or prevent you from
reading scrolls. Except for melee stun attacks? Not sure about the
last bit.

Joshua

Timo Pietilä

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 4:22:02 PM6/26/07
to

That's correct. And that melee-stunning used to be covered by sound resist.

Timo Pietilä

magnate

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 6:40:27 AM6/27/07
to

In some variants fail rates increase with very low mana. Not sure if
this happens in V - but you can of course get to zero mana and not
cast any spells. The real point about the lock is that you can
*always* read a teleport scroll - unless you're KO'd.

CC

Phil Cartwright

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 7:05:17 AM6/27/07
to
magnate wrote:
> In some variants fail rates increase with very low mana. Not sure if
> this happens in V - but you can of course get to zero mana and not
> cast any spells. The real point about the lock is that you can
> *always* read a teleport scroll - unless you're KO'd.

For that, you don't need resist sound, although it might help to avoid
getting KO'd by plasma or gravity hounds.

Timo Pietilä

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 7:17:07 AM6/27/07
to
magnate wrote:
> On Jun 26, 9:22 pm, Timo Pietilä <timo.piet...@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>> camlost wrote:
>>> Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>>> Timo Pietilä writes:
>>>>> That is not slight change. The lock has been there from
>>>>> frog-knows. Breaking it means removing the lock, not changing it.
>>>> What's the lock?
>>> If you have free action and resistance to sound, confusion, and
>>> blindness, I don't think there's anything that can increase your fail
>>> rates on spells or prevent you from casting spells or prevent you from
>>> reading scrolls. Except for melee stun attacks? Not sure about the
>>> last bit.
>> That's correct. And that melee-stunning used to be covered by sound resist.
>
> In some variants fail rates increase with very low mana. Not sure if
> this happens in V

It doesn't. You have increased fail rate if you don't have mana to cast
the spell. Casting spell without mana can hurt your CON and cause short
paralyzation (through FA).

> - but you can of course get to zero mana and not
> cast any spells.

That is bad playing. You can try to cast a spell without any mana, but
risk for failing is very high.

> The real point about the lock is that you can
> *always* read a teleport scroll - unless you're KO'd.

I used to play priests without any scrolls, healing potions or or
wands/staves once I had the lock. I collected potions of restore mana
and carried those. Now because melee-stunning I carry CCW. I also
started to carry small amount of teleport scrolls "just in case", but I
hardly ever use any.

Timo Pietilä

Andrew Sidwell

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 8:52:53 PM6/27/07
to
Andrew Sidwell wrote:
> Angband is soon to have a new official release. Before that, though, I
> want to put out a prerelease version for testing purposes. I believe
> this version to be mostly bug-free and fairly consistent, but you may
> find otherwise, and if you do, I want to know! If no problems are
> found, I'll release 3.0.8 final without any modifications on 1st July.
>
>
> Download at:
>
> Source code: http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1.tar.gz
> Windows: http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1-win.zip
> RISC OS: http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1-ros.zip

Mac OS X port now available at:
http://rephial.org/downloads/angband-3.0.8pr1-osx.dmg

My apologies for the slowness here. :) I see that since only two
changes proved massively controversial, doing a prerelease can't have
been that bad an idea. The great thing about being maintainer is that
when you threaten to make a release, people remind you (sometimes
forcefully) of all the things that slipped one's mind. :)

Thanks to all the support-ful people who sent mail or replies.

Looks like CCW curing amnesia will be fine for everyone. I'm going with
that, along with another look at the monsters who have amnesia.


Squelch
-------

The squelch code started out as the NPP verison, which is basically the
Blackston patch, plus ego-item and quality squelch, plus the purple dot
(a horrible practice), plus always-pickup and never-pickup options, plus
autoinscribe. No-one really took the time to fix the code so it was in
even so much as the same style, and certainly no-one who ever cared
about interface looked at it (or if they did, they got frightened away).
My changes basically involved rewriting it so I could actually edit it.

I nuked:
* purple dotting, because it's a hack
* ego-item squelching, since I don't like it
* seperate categories for different kinds of armour, weapons, etc,
because I would just have to move along the list and alter them one at a
time
* "never pickup", because frankly, it seems redundant
* individual item kind squelch for weapons, armour, etc., all of which
are covered fine by quality squelch for my purposes
* auto-squelch, since the way it was done was icky

So basically, I did the above for usability, using my own experience as
the use-case. When people say "I want NPP squelch", which particular
aspect do you miss? If it's the purple dot or ego-items, it's not
coming back. :) It seems that by "NPP squelch", people actually mean
"destroying items in the backpack automatically", and I can do that.
It's a five-line job.

"magnate" wrote that squelch is about saving keypresses, but for me it
isn't, it's about reducing mental burden of looking through the
inventory list for what I want to destroy. I did stuff the Ey way just
because for my purposes, "k!" is fine. I understand now that
keypress-optimisers don't like it. :)


Eddie Grove wrote:
> If you squelch !restoreDex, then get dex drained by time hound even
> though you have sustains, when you unsquelch !restoreDex any potions
> you have been ignoring should appear on the screen.
>
> *** Squelch should be about ignoring, not about removing or
> destructing. ***

Destruction, for me, has always meant "I will never care about this
object again". If you want to write a patch to change the semantics of
"destroy", then I'm actually quite interested in it, regardless of
whether it works on V or NPP.

Antony (Sidwell) has written a patch which ignores items on the floor
that would be marked as squelch, which should keep you happy along with
auto-squelch. Note: monsters will still give messages when picking up
junk, but that's tiny.


There have been some quite complex approaches to squelch. I think that
really, the problem lies not there but rather with broken object
handling (with worthless items, generation, and the ID system). As far
as I'm concerned, squelch should be only an interim solution; having
automatic systems to combat boredom introduced by other automatic
systems misses the issue of "why have the boredom introduced in the
first place?".

I will be proposing a new ID system after 3.0.8 is out of the door which
should solve a bunch of issues with the current one, but I'm not sure
how people will react.

Two other notes: I particularly like making destroying artifacts
possible, and have them just turn up again later. I also plan to make
"destruction" a 0-energy action.


That was too long and a couple hours have passed since I started
writing. Apologies for spelling mistakes. :)

--
Andrew Sidwell
http://rephial.org/ -- the home of Angband

My email address changes monthly, and is the first three letters of the
month (in English), followed by the last two digits of the current year,
@entai.co.uk.

Andrew Sidwell

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 8:57:09 PM6/27/07
to
Hugo Kornelis wrote:
> For the rest, it looks like I'm going to have to do some work to update
> the spoilers for 3.0.8, and LOTS of work to either move changes to my
> "work in progress" Dutch version of Angband or retranslate all sources
> (but I will definitely base Dutch Angband -if I ever get to finish this
> project- on 3.0.8 rather than 3.0.6, if only for the mouse support).

Well, I'd like to move as much text out of the game as I plausibly can,
which will make your job easier, I think. Be warned that 3.0.9 (early
2008 release) will be making fairly big changes to the insides of the
game too, so you might want to hold off til then...


On a related note, I feel a twinge of guilt when making sweeping
interface changes because of the borg... My apologies to APW! :)

Tagore Smith

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 9:41:11 PM6/27/07
to
On Jun 25, 1:22 am, Eddie Grove <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > Oh well, no future V for me.

I've felt the same way recently, but over different issues. I think
I've made my peace with junk, rightly or wrongly. But I'm glad you
posted something this blunt before I did. At any rate, I'm glad there
is an active maintainer now, even if our visions *cough* differ. At a
certain point a ship must have a captain. I will say that I think it
is a mistake to make ook, rather than r.g.r.a, the main place for
discussing changes to V- many people on r.g.r.a will then be presented
with firm decisions that they would rather have had the chance to
weigh in on.

> This is almost diametrically opposed to what I want. While I am opposed to
> the identify spell, I believe in learning by testing, not by generating
> identified.

This sounds like it would be interesting for a few games. I have to
wonder if it would not be even more tedious than the current system a
few games after that- I do test a lot of things early because of lack
of ID, and honestly, I find that tedious. I'm aware of the problem,
and have no solution, but I am not sure this is the right one either.
Never let it be said that I lit a candle when I could have cursed the
darkness.

>In fact, I don't think you should
> see damage dice until you pick up a weapon.

This makes some sense. In V, you often know exactly what things are
after detecting, as odd-dice artifacts seem much more common than odd
dice non-artifacts. In NPP you can at least be pretty sure they are
ego, and that matters quite a bit in the early game (recent warrior
went to get a 2d5 branded Main Gauche that he probably would have
otherwise ignored on an early level- was good enough to keep till
2000').

> > There is an automated "player recall" system, something like monster recall,
> > which decides at what point in the game the player will want to squelch a given
> > item and immediately silently set it to squelch (this will apply from everything
> > from Potions of Slowness right up to whether that Mace of Disruption of Extra
> > Attacks is enchanted enough to be a good swap). After level generation, all
> > monsters which would be trivial to kill will automatically and silently commit
> > suicide, leaving any unsquelched drop in a neat pile on the ground in a
> > player-configured order.
>
> All wrong.

I agree, without knowing more about this- what yardstick do you
measure this with? Equipment decisions are notoriously hard to make in
some cases... hard to see this kind of system getting it right in
general.

> I am sorry to clutter this thread with what promises to be a long contentious
> discussion of squelch, but I couldn't leave such wrongheaded suggestions of my
> opinions on these matters without response.

I think it may be one of many contentious discussions. This is why I
think the move to ook as the main place to discuss changes to V is
problematic. R.g.r.a has been the center of Angband, or V at least,
for a long time, and the move to a private system controlled by one
individual doesn't sit well with me, even though I am registered at
ook. No disrespect intended to pav, the site is a great resource. I
just don't think it should be turned into the main venue for
discussion of Angband by fiat, even if by the sort of benevolent
dictator I approve of.

Andrew Sidwell

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 9:53:27 PM6/27/07
to
Tagore Smith wrote:
> On Jun 25, 1:22 am, Eddie Grove <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Oh well, no future V for me.
>
> I've felt the same way recently, but over different issues. I think
> I've made my peace with junk, rightly or wrongly. But I'm glad you
> posted something this blunt before I did.

I'm not sure bluntness is ever really required. Making guarded comments
like "but over different issues" and not elucidating on them isn't so
helpful either -- just because if you actually said what the issues you
have are, then I might be able to listen to what you have to say about
them. :)

> At any rate, I'm glad there
> is an active maintainer now, even if our visions *cough* differ. At a
> certain point a ship must have a captain. I will say that I think it
> is a mistake to make ook, rather than r.g.r.a, the main place for
> discussing changes to V- many people on r.g.r.a will then be presented
> with firm decisions that they would rather have had the chance to
> weigh in on.

I ask everything I ask both here and on the forums. I reply to people
wherever they ask questions. Given this, I don't know where your
complaint lies...

Tagore Smith

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 10:50:42 PM6/27/07
to
On Jun 25, 2:05 am, will_asher <will_as...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Look at it as slightly changing one of the fundamentals of the game. I think it
> is an appropriate change. Most monsters that have FORGET are late enough for
> people to have healing potions. Making healing potions more common would be
> nice to go along with this change, though.

Timo is quite correct about the consequences of this. The only way you
can consider it minor is to imagine that it will be very uncommon in
critical situations. I didn't comment on ook because I knew Timo would
when it was announced here, and his objections carry more weight than
mine, as they should.

Angband makes certain promises, and skilled play, particularly for low
HD classes, depends on those promises. That is to say, if you satisfy
these requirements, your 2000 point heal will always work. Your
tele_level will always work. Etc. You are right that it changes a
fundamental of the game, but you are wrong to think it is a minor
change.

I don't mean to be rude at all here, but it is hard to say this sort
of thing online without sounding overly harsh, so I will just say it,
and I'd like you to imagine all the ameliorating body language I would
use if we had this conversation in person. Timo is one of the better
Angband players around. having won many times, and many times with
ridiculous challenge characters. I am not as good a player as Timo,
but I still have dozens of wins to my credit. I believe the sub-2000'
part of the game is still virgin territory to you. No offense, but I'd
like to suggest that you take Timo's response seriously as he is in a
better position to know how a change like this will actually change
game balance. I'm not suggesting that you bow completely to his
authority- I just think you ought to consider that he knows what he's
talking about, and that his arguments should not be airily dismissed.

I've been commenting (as aeneas) on your dumps on ook, so I know you
have the desire to modify the game, even maybe maintain a variant, and
I encourage you to do that. It's not uncommon that variant authors are
not the best players (though of course you might become a very good
player in the future), but the best maintainers listen closely to the
best players of their variant. They have to. The best players are the
best players precisely because they do understand the game balance-
they know how to exploit the strengths of their characters and the
weaknesses of the game.

Your point about the lateness of the attack and the availability of !
Heal is incorrect and not germane. !CCW is available from the
beginning, but pure spellcasters try mightily to get a lock, even
though !CCW cures the effects prevented by the lock. Why? Because V
makes certain promises, among them that if you have 0% fail and the
lock you will never be unable to cast the spell, excepting a few
avoidable circumstances (KO is the first that comes to mind, but that
cannot usually be done from a distance in one turn- I have not meleed
a grand master mystic in some time), in _one_ turn. So it doesn't
matter how many !Healing you have- you still have to use at least two
player turns to cast the spell. That is a huge breach of the promise,
and it radically changes the balance for pure spellcasters who do not
yet have a perfect save.

What bothers me about this is that it is a change thrown out in
brainstorming on a message board and immediately adopted with what
seemed like little consideration, but it is in fact a big change. A
lot of the new stuff in V seems to have got there in this way. I still
play mainly V because it balances being balanced with being fun to
play better than any variant, IMHO. Part of the reason is that
previous maintainers have been ultra-conservative about V (JLE patch
excepted). I think that changes to V ought to be approached
conservatively.

As I said in another post, I am very glad that V has an active
maintainer now, and I appreciate that Andrew is willing to put in the
work. My time is pretty much my own these days, but I know I would
still be unwilling to commit to doing a good job of maintaining V. So
all props to Andrew for doing a thankless job that benefits us all.
That said... I have mixed feelings when I look at the change log. V is
starting to look like another variant to me.

A while ago I suggested, half-jokingly, that V ought to be co-
maintained, with Timo a balance/gameplay consultant. The reason it was
a joke was that I assumed that most big changes would pass through
r.g.r.a, and be commented on by Timo. This is why I do not like the
fact that the big changes are discussed on ook now. Only when they are
a fait accompli do r.g.r.a members who do not feel like registering
for ook get to see them- and by that time they are already in the next
release.

Tagore Smith

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 10:59:26 PM6/27/07
to
On Jun 25, 3:40 pm, Timo Pietilä <timo.piet...@helsinki.fi> wrote:

> That would require carrying YAmore item in inventory. But if change is
> done maybe you need to carry staffs of teleportation and some powerful
> ball-spell rods/wands.

Hmm- it surprises me that you say that... I am more concerend about
the effects of pure spellcasters by this (mages more than Priests as
their saves can fail to be perfect for longer). They already have OK
ball spells. The problem is that they now need two turns to cast a
spell they would have in one before.

Andrew Sidwell

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 11:27:49 PM6/27/07
to
Tagore Smith wrote:
> What bothers me about this is that it is a change thrown out in
> brainstorming on a message board and immediately adopted with what
> seemed like little consideration, but it is in fact a big change.

I hate amnesia myself, Pete Mack had mentioned several times since
3.0.7s that he wanted rid of amnesia, and Andrew Doull's suggestion to
alter it seemed OK. It wasn't quite as casual as it may have seemed,
but yes, it wasn't passed through many people before it was implemented.
It was just done, just like the recharging behaviour changes which I
seem to recall caused much outrage at the time. It's better to try
something and revert it than to not try it at all.

> A lot of the new stuff in V seems to have got there in this way. I
> still play mainly V because it balances being balanced with being
> fun to play better than any variant, IMHO. Part of the reason is that
> previous maintainers have been ultra-conservative about V (JLE patch
> excepted). I think that changes to V ought to be approached
> conservatively.

Previous maintainers to V have been nothing of the sort. :) The authors
of Angband were anything but conservative, 2.5.x had plenty of gameplay
changes, and Ben came along and rewrote a fair bit, not to mention the
JLE patch or the spell changes under Robert.

If you want to stay static, keep on playing 3.0.6 -- I don't have an
issue with that, but you won't get any of the other improvements, either.

> As I said in another post, I am very glad that V has an active
> maintainer now, and I appreciate that Andrew is willing to put in the
> work. My time is pretty much my own these days, but I know I would
> still be unwilling to commit to doing a good job of maintaining V. So
> all props to Andrew for doing a thankless job that benefits us all.
> That said... I have mixed feelings when I look at the change log. V is
> starting to look like another variant to me.

It's far from thankless, actually. :) It sounds like you have
misgivings, but I haven't picked up any specific objections.

> A while ago I suggested, half-jokingly, that V ought to be co-
> maintained, with Timo a balance/gameplay consultant. The reason it was
> a joke was that I assumed that most big changes would pass through
> r.g.r.a, and be commented on by Timo.

As far as I can remember, big changes get announced by maintainers with
the release of a new version and people object only after it's been
released. :) Though I do mean to ask Timo for a list of gameplay
issues, at the suggestion of various people, so I can tootle off and fix
them. I'm not a great player; I know that, and I'm happy to take as
much advice as possible from people who are.

> This is why I do not like the
> fact that the big changes are discussed on ook now. Only when they are
> a fait accompli do r.g.r.a members who do not feel like registering
> for ook get to see them- and by that time they are already in the next
> release.

Are you talking of the forums or the development mailing list? I think
you might be misperceiving what's going on -- if someone suggests
something over there, I reply over there, and that's all there is to it.
"Big changes" are no more discussed on oook than they are on r.g.r.a
(and I have a set of files which summarise the massive debate that went
on when I took over as maintainer, ready for future use and tweakage),
on the dev list, or with Antony (my brother) in real life, or on IRC.
If you want to keep track of the changes to the game, you want to keep
an eye on the trac timeline:
http://dev.rephial.org/trac/timeline

So please, don't believe I'm trying to cut out r.g.r.a. It's just not
true. :)

Eddie Grove

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 10:32:48 PM6/27/07
to
Andrew Sidwell <ju...@entai.co.uk> writes:

> Destruction, for me, has always meant "I will never care about this
> object again". If you want to write a patch to change the semantics of
> "destroy", then I'm actually quite interested in it, regardless of
> whether it works on V or NPP.

The only differences I have proposed are that destroy should work on artifacts
and take zero energy. I can code it if you like, but I think email overhead
is more than your doing it yourself.

> There have been some quite complex approaches to squelch. I think that
> really, the problem lies not there but rather with broken object
> handling (with worthless items, generation, and the ID system). As far
> as I'm concerned, squelch should be only an interim solution; having
> automatic systems to combat boredom introduced by other automatic
> systems misses the issue of "why have the boredom introduced in the
> first place?".

People have been saying that since Blackston wrote it. Guess what -- the
problem hasn't been addressed at all. I believe that *every single issue*
should be approached from a "try to avoid creating junk" perspective, but even
for a 100% no-brainer like removing the priestly pointy penalty, I couldn't
even get a majority to post that they agreed with me. I am forced to conclude
that people *want* junk, which they refer to as different objects for
different classes. OK, but in that case I require squelch.


Eddie

Christer Nyfalt

unread,
Jun 28, 2007, 1:49:29 AM6/28/07
to
On 2007-06-28, Andrew Sidwell <ju...@entai.co.uk> wrote:
> There have been some quite complex approaches to squelch. I think that
> really, the problem lies not there but rather with broken object
> handling (with worthless items, generation, and the ID system). As far
> as I'm concerned, squelch should be only an interim solution; having
> automatic systems to combat boredom introduced by other automatic
> systems misses the issue of "why have the boredom introduced in the
> first place?".
>
> I will be proposing a new ID system after 3.0.8 is out of the door which
> should solve a bunch of issues with the current one, but I'm not sure
> how people will react.

It might be worthwhile to compare Angband with the item system of Diablo II,
which doesn't really seemed to have the too much junk problem even
if it has a smaller inventory.
And consider point-by-point what we really gain from being different.
In Diablo II:
- Only one level of Id. (This is on the TODO list for 3.0.9, right?)
- Items are automatically pseudo-ided, and you can see their quality
with mouse-over. (At least make weak pseudo-id detect normal items.)
- No worthless, cursed or harmful items. (It's this kind of crap I want
squelch for. I mean, come on, only a newbie falls for them.)
- Only two scrolltypes, a handful of potions, no food and no devices.
(Less is more. KISS. I especially dislike that a warrior need to carry around
devices.)

Let these points serve as a basis of further discussion about object
handling.

--
Christer Nyfalt

Timo Pietilä

unread,
Jun 28, 2007, 2:39:54 AM6/28/07
to
Andrew Sidwell wrote:
> Tagore Smith wrote:

>> certain point a ship must have a captain. I will say that I think it
>> is a mistake to make ook, rather than r.g.r.a, the main place for
>> discussing changes to V- many people on r.g.r.a will then be presented
>> with firm decisions that they would rather have had the chance to
>> weigh in on.
>
> I ask everything I ask both here and on the forums. I reply to people
> wherever they ask questions. Given this, I don't know where your
> complaint lies...

For example this:

"New features for Angband from variants" by andrewdoull

in ook.

This is discussion I didn't even know existed. And because web-interface
still sucks big time I won't bother participating.

Problem is not you. It is dividing angband community.

Timo Pietilä

Timo Pietilä

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Jun 28, 2007, 2:47:50 AM6/28/07
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Except that you might not get that turn. Unless you kill that memory
moss by other means, that is. You need to carry that potion of _healing_
if suggested change goes thru *before* stat-gain to get that two-turn
spellcasting. And it might still go wrong if that memory moss succeeds
again at the same turn you used that potion.

How many potions of healing do you have before stat-gain?

I agree that this is not very big problem late in game, but early this
is very very very bad.

Timo Pietilä

Timo Pietilä

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Jun 28, 2007, 3:22:16 AM6/28/07
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Andrew Sidwell wrote:

> released. :) Though I do mean to ask Timo for a list of gameplay
> issues, at the suggestion of various people, so I can tootle off and fix
> them. I'm not a great player; I know that, and I'm happy to take as
> much advice as possible from people who are.

Just to notice. I'm going on four week vacation after three weeks. So if
you plan to ask do it quickly or leave it after my vacation.

Here is short list of things what I wan't to happen in vanilla that
should not be too radical to do in very near future:

Restore chaos resist giving immunity to confusion effect (but not damage).
Related to that: remove confusion or chaos resist on several artifacts
giving both. Replace resist confusion with resist blindness in Amulet of
Magi.

Resist blindness should be ability, not resist. It doesn't give you
protection against any form of damage like all other resistances do. It
is closer to free action than any resistance. This would also allow it
to be in magi, lothlorien, blessed, *slay evil* etc.

Remove branding ammo. Or make it random slay instead. Brands are too
effective on too wide scale of monsters.

PDSM are currently mini-Bladeturners. They need to be toned down. Not
much but still.

Replace ball-spells in elven rings with variety of healings (they were
made for heal and growth and preservation, not for war).

Ranger and Rogue spells should be reversed IMO. Rogue should be the one
with more attack spells, and ranger more warrior-like with bow as main
weapon. Keep the spells that are "in theme" for both classes (like
detection spells with rogue).

Timo Pietilä

Timo Pietilä

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Jun 28, 2007, 3:51:19 AM6/28/07
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Eddie Grove wrote:
> Andrew Sidwell <ju...@entai.co.uk> writes:

>> There have been some quite complex approaches to squelch. I think that
>> really, the problem lies not there but rather with broken object
>> handling (with worthless items, generation, and the ID system). As far
>> as I'm concerned, squelch should be only an interim solution; having
>> automatic systems to combat boredom introduced by other automatic
>> systems misses the issue of "why have the boredom introduced in the
>> first place?".
>
> People have been saying that since Blackston wrote it. Guess what -- the
> problem hasn't been addressed at all.

Problem with this is not that nobody is not willing to do that. It is
mainly that nobody knows how to do that.

Sangband has done quite a good job for it. Reduced drops, less total junk.

Timo Pietilä

Eddie Grove

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Jun 28, 2007, 2:58:00 AM6/28/07
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Andrew Sidwell <ju...@entai.co.uk> writes:

> Squelch

> I nuked:

> * ego-item squelching, since I don't like it

Once you have a shield of elvenkind, you never want to look at another shield
of resist fire. I guess if you figure you already went to the trouble to id
it, how much more trouble is it to kill it afterward? I can't argue so much
with that even though I hate it. But in an improved id system where you don't
have to use a separate ?id on each individual excellent item [as in NPP with
mass id], we really see a huge gain from ego squelching to wipe out the
clutter. I've squelched a dozen ego items with a single use of mass id.

If you ever move in another direction I propose, treating egos somewhat akin
to flavors in that once you learn a particular ego you recognize it the next
time without the need for id, ego squelch would again improve gameplay a lot.

Squelching weapons is an exceedingly intricate problem. I think I basically
know how to do it, but I've been thinking about it seemingly forever and
haven't made up my mind yet exactly how it should be done.


Eddie

magnate

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Jun 28, 2007, 4:53:18 AM6/28/07
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On Jun 28, 1:52 am, Andrew Sidwell <j...@entai.co.uk> wrote:
> Looks like CCW curing amnesia will be fine for everyone. I'm going with
> that, along with another look at the monsters who have amnesia.

By "curing amnesia", do you just mean restoring your spell failure
rates (and other "stun"-type effects) to normal? Or do you mean that
all the ID'd stuff that amnesia caused you to forget will suddenly be
ID'd again?

> Squelch
> -------
>
> The squelch code started out as the NPP verison, which is basically the
> Blackston patch, plus ego-item and quality squelch, plus the purple dot
> (a horrible practice), plus always-pickup and never-pickup options, plus
> autoinscribe. No-one really took the time to fix the code so it was in
> even so much as the same style, and certainly no-one who ever cared
> about interface looked at it (or if they did, they got frightened away).
> My changes basically involved rewriting it so I could actually edit it.
>
> I nuked:
> * purple dotting, because it's a hack

What is wrong with purple dots? You yourself say "for me ... it's


about reducing mental burden of looking through the inventory list for

what I want to destroy" - substitute "visible objects" for "inventory
list" and you should see why purple dots make perfect sense. They're
markers which tell you there is an item there which you are not
*currently* interested in. Some would have them invisible, but others
like to see the dots because you can at least examine them and see
what's there (should you be looking for a squelched restore stat
potion, for example).

> * ego-item squelching, since I don't like it

Erm ... with respect I think you have to give a little more
justification than that, maintainer or no. As Eddie has pointed out,
one you are wearing Foo of Resistance, you will never want Foo of
Resist Element. The same goes for Weapon of Westernesse over Weapon of
Slay Orc. For these reasons ego-squelching makes perfect sense, and I
would be interested to hear counter-arguments. IMO it is the single
biggest improvement NPP made to the Blackston squelch implementation.

> * seperate categories for different kinds of armour, weapons, etc,
> because I would just have to move along the list and alter them one at a
> time

??? Again, with respect, I'm not convinced by your reasoning. I think
most players agree that they would squelch {good} daggers without
squelching {good} lochaber axes, let alone blades of chaos. Ditto
squelching {average} body armour of most types but not squelching
{average} mithril chain.

> * "never pickup", because frankly, it seems redundant

Agreed.

> * individual item kind squelch for weapons, armour, etc., all of which
> are covered fine by quality squelch for my purposes

Erm. I think my comments above apply here. I agree that you don't need
*both* category-squelch and individual item type squelch (which we
might call sval-squelch) - but I maintain that you need one or the
other. You seem to be getting rid of both.

> * auto-squelch, since the way it was done was icky

Why, because it didn't take a turn? I can't think of anything else
icky about it ...

> So basically, I did the above for usability, using my own experience as
> the use-case.

Usability is debatable. Your own experience and preferences differ
greatly from mine and Eddie's, at least. I think dropping ego-squelch
and dropping both category and sval-squelch are major mistakes.

> When people say "I want NPP squelch", which particular
> aspect do you miss? If it's the purple dot or ego-items, it's not
> coming back. :) It seems that by "NPP squelch", people actually mean
> "destroying items in the backpack automatically", and I can do that.
> It's a five-line job.

It's more than that. It's the ability to define what items interest
you, and get rid of those which don't with a minimum of fuss
(keypresses, mental energy etc.).

> Eddie Grove wrote:
> > If you squelch !restoreDex, then get dex drained by time hound even
> > though you have sustains, when you unsquelch !restoreDex any potions
> > you have been ignoring should appear on the screen.
>
> > *** Squelch should be about ignoring, not about removing or
> > destructing. ***

This is precisely why purple dots are useful.

> Antony (Sidwell) has written a patch which ignores items on the floor
> that would be marked as squelch, which should keep you happy along with
> auto-squelch. Note: monsters will still give messages when picking up
> junk, but that's tiny.

Er ... the original Blackston implementation already had this feature.
Items "that would be marked as squelch" appeared as purple dots, and
there was a toggle to determine what happened when you walked on them:
ignore or destroy.

> There have been some quite complex approaches to squelch. I think that
> really, the problem lies not there but rather with broken object
> handling (with worthless items, generation, and the ID system). As far
> as I'm concerned, squelch should be only an interim solution; having
> automatic systems to combat boredom introduced by other automatic
> systems misses the issue of "why have the boredom introduced in the
> first place?".
>
> I will be proposing a new ID system after 3.0.8 is out of the door which
> should solve a bunch of issues with the current one, but I'm not sure
> how people will react.

Well, I have long been on your side here - TMJ needs fixing and
squelch is indeed only an interim solution. But as Timo pointed out,
it's an interim solution that's been needed for many years, and it's
worth making it friendly to as many users as possible. I will be very
interested in your proposals for revising item generation and ID. I
wrote quite a long post a while back in one of Eddie's TMJ threads
about how item generation should be much more specific to the current
character (e.g. instead of generating Raal's or WoG randomly, generate
the relevant one) - I'll see if I can find it.

> Two other notes: I particularly like making destroying artifacts
> possible, and have them just turn up again later. I also plan to make
> "destruction" a 0-energy action.

Ugh. I will plant my flag in the ground here and say that I violently
disagree with both you and Eddie on the destruction of artifacts. This
is a roguelike, not a quantum physics lesson. An artifact is still an
artifact whether it's IDd or not - it has already been generated - so
it should remain indestructible. The fact that you two think it's
cheesy that you can ID an artifact by trying to destroy it is ...
irrelevant. If you don't like that, come up with indestructible non-
artifacts to confuse people! But don't get all Schrodinger on us.

> That was too long and a couple hours have passed since I started
> writing. Apologies for spelling mistakes. :)

No problem at all - thanks for all your efforts. You're doing a grand
job and I'm sorry I disagree so much with your chosen approach to
squelching. I hope I've managed to explain why.

CC

magnate

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Jun 28, 2007, 6:07:19 AM6/28/07
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On Jun 28, 9:53 am, magnate <chr...@dbass.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Well, I have long been on your side here - TMJ needs fixing and
> squelch is indeed only an interim solution. But as Timo pointed out,
> it's an interim solution that's been needed for many years, and it's
> worth making it friendly to as many users as possible. I will be very
> interested in your proposals for revising item generation and ID. I
> wrote quite a long post a while back in one of Eddie's TMJ threads
> about how item generation should be much more specific to the current
> character (e.g. instead of generating Raal's or WoG randomly, generate
> the relevant one) - I'll see if I can find it.

Hmm, the long post turned out to be about spreading out stat potions
to get rid of stat gain - I assume you have your own ideas about that,
connected with solving TMJ. The flash of insight on TMJ was provided
by RDH:

> Letting stat potions count as "good" (and possibly even "great") so long
> as they're for an unmaxed stat (yes, that's hackish, but sometimes play
> has to come before ideally beautiful code) might also be helpful, as
> getting "good" drops would help, not hinder stat gain.

I replied: "Dan, this is a stroke of utter genius. It's the answer to
TMJ! Wrath
of God is a DROP_GREAT if you're playing a priest or paladin, and not
otherwise. Similarly blessed weapons. You could even extend this idea
to include current status: a char without ESP would consider any item
giving ESP a good or great drop, where a char with ESP already might
not (though it is handy to have alternatives).

Yes, rewriting the drop code to take stuff like class, stats and kit
into account would be a major change - but people have always said
that the solution to TMJ had to be radically different to just
tinkering with drop rates and rarities and depths. I think this might
be it."

Not sure if it will feature in your plans, but it seems to me that
adding pieces of code to parse the player's current stats and kit and
create a temporary categorisation of possible drops would enable you
to solve TMJ without having to do much to change the actual item
generation code. All the stuff about depth checking and so on could
stay as is, along with the generation of good or great items etc. -
you simply add a routine that will redefine what constitutes good and
great.

Must do some work,

CC

Antony Sidwell

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Jun 28, 2007, 6:47:01 AM6/28/07