ZAngband spells
Billy Bissette
I've been messing around with ZAngband, and have gotten pretty annoyed
with the shoddy treatment of mages. It was already quite hard for mages
to survive the early levels of Angband, but easy to survive the later...
I was hoping that ZAngband would change this, but...
The spell system as it is apparently makes it even harder or annoying for
low levels and easier for high levels.
Several of the lower level spells are simply duplicates of other realm
spells, with slightly different names and levels. Why not differentiate
them more? Like Blink... Chaos and sorcery both get it as a low level
spell... But why aren't the two versions different? It seems the
ideas behind the two realms would alter them. Maybe give Chaos more
range, but Sorcery more of a safety check... Or Light Area... Give
the Chaos version more damage, but the Sorcery version more range...
If spell book slots are going to be wasted on duplicate spells, there
should be at least some reasons to chose one over the other, and
different reasons to use either.
The other complaint is that no configuration has the basic collection
of useful low level magic. Maybe some of useful effects of some
specialty spells can be somewhat duplicated in other spells. Again
with Chaos/Sorcery, the mage can't tunnel via magic since there is
no Turn Stone to Mud. That is a very useful spell for a mage. Then
consider the realms... It seems Chaos should have some way to remove
pesky walls. For example, why can't acid spells have a tunnel effect?
I'm not asking for an Acid Bolt to dissolve stone, but maybe it should
have a chance when it is fired at a wall. Maybe something like 1 in 10,
or depending on the stone type. Could make acid ball a bit more
entertaining also... And maybe then things like gellatinous cubes won't
just sit in a corridor when the player is on the other side of the
wall, it might just keep trying to dissolve the wall.... :)
Anyway, that's the gist of my complaints/ideas... Any comments/complaints?
--
Baines the Pale Vampire Lord of Darkness
aka Billy Bissette (bai...@coastalnet.com)
Joseph William Dixon
On 1 Dec 1997 07:30:16 GMT, bai...@coastalnet.com wrote:
: I've been messing around with ZAngband, and have gotten pretty annoyed
: with the shoddy treatment of mages. It was already quite hard for mages
: to survive the early levels of Angband, but easy to survive the later...
: I was hoping that ZAngband would change this, but...
Spells *have* to be duplicated in different realms or else anyone but a
Sorcery/Chaos Mage would be dead meat. And if you're a S/C mage, you
still get all the needed early spells (except for Stinking Cloud, which is
a Death spell) - Detect Monsters, Detect Doors/Stairs, Light Area, Phase
Door/Blink, Teleportation, Magic Missile and other damage spells. Mages
do just fine in the early game, *especially* if they choose Sorcery and
Chaos. Try a Priest next, Life and Chaos, and *then* try and tell us the
magic system sucks.
[as for the Stone to Mud issue you mentioned, there has to be a reason
for non-Rangers to choose Nature]
/===== Joseph W. Dixon ==== Team *AMIGA* ==== -*[Gumby]*- =====\
\= aa...@chebucto.ns.ca === http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~aa343/ =/
Julian Lighton
In article <19971202021...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Wilbur07 <wilb...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Spells *have* to be duplicated in different realms or else anyone but a
>>Sorcery/Chaos Mage would be dead meat. And if you're a S/C mage, you
>>still get all the needed early spells (except for Stinking Cloud, which is
>>a Death spell) - Detect Monsters, Detect Doors/Stairs, Light Area, Phase
>>Door/Blink, Teleportation, Magic Missile and other damage spells. Mages
>>do just fine in the early game, *especially* if they choose Sorcery and
>>Chaos. Try a Priest next, Life and Chaos, and *then* try and tell us the
>>magic system sucks.
>> [as for the Stone to Mud issue you mentioned, there has to be a reason
>>for non-Rangers to choose Nature]
>
>resistances to the basic elements. This makes the game extremely hard for
>non-Nature spellcasters as hounds breathe the basic elements and are all over
>the place. At least in Vanilla, Rogues get double resistance with ROS book but
>in Zangband they're out of luck.
Three things:
1) Elemental immunities seem to be as common as dirt. (Well, not
quite, but a lot of random artifacts have one.)
2) Potions of resistance really are as common as dirt.
3) Rings of Fire/Ice/Acid all activate for temporary resistance, so
you can swap one in and use it if you see something that will require
it. (If you're a rogue, you'll certainly have a chance.) (I haven't
found that hounds require double resistance.)
4) If all else fails, find Colluin. :)
--
Julian Lighton jl...@fragment.com
"We're from the government, and we want that moustache!!!" -- The Tick
Joseph E. Beck
Joseph William Dixon (aa...@chebucto.ns.ca) wrote:
: Spells *have* to be duplicated in different realms or else anyone but a
: Sorcery/Chaos Mage would be dead meat.
Do you think a spellcaster without this is "dead meat"? If so, how
do poor fighters ever do it?
If more of a separation isn't done, I like the idea of having each
version be distinctive for each realm of magic. Another idea is to
create some more "indispensable" spells so everyone has a different
set:
"How did you survive without the first level spell 'find treasure'..."
Some spell that prevents doors from being opened would be good. Chaos
should be able to "mess up" the terrain by addin some wall, rubble,
and/or doors at a fairly low level. Death could get...some
useful spells.
It's not clear to me that the realms cannot be made more distinct.
: Chaos. Try a Priest next, Life and Chaos, and *then* try and tell us the
: magic system sucks.
I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a good combo or a bad one. My
initial intuition is that it would be awesome. However, I'm finding
that healing is better at combat than I thought. OoD was weakened,
but the dispel evil/undead spells were improved (from 1d3 per level
to a flat 4 per level). So I'm burning a lot of mana for those, and
usin fairly little for chaos spells other than magic missile, blink,
and teleport.
--
Joseph E. Beck Center for Knowledge Communication
http://www.cs.umass.edu/~beck University of Mass, Amherst
"Equality of rights is a moral axiom: it does not follow from any
set of scientific data" -- Arthur Jensen
Wilbur07
>bai...@coastalnet.com wrote:
>: I've been messing around with ZAngband, and have gotten pretty annoyed
>: with the shoddy treatment of mages. It was already quite hard for mages
>: to survive the early levels of Angband, but easy to survive the later...
>: I was hoping that ZAngband would change this, but...
>
>still get all the needed early spells (except for Stinking Cloud, which is
>a Death spell) - Detect Monsters, Detect Doors/Stairs, Light Area, Phase
>Door/Blink, Teleportation, Magic Missile and other damage spells. Mages
>do just fine in the early game, *especially* if they choose Sorcery and
>magic system sucks.
>for non-Rangers to choose Nature]
>
What annoys me is that you must take Nature to get any sort of double
resistances to the basic elements. This makes the game extremely hard for
non-Nature spellcasters as hounds breathe the basic elements and are all over
the place. At least in Vanilla, Rogues get double resistance with ROS book but
in Zangband they're out of luck. I'm currently running a Dark Elf Mage
Sorcery-Nature and I'm having a hard time at the early levels with no offensive
spells except lightning bolt (and Magic Missile racial talent!).
Also, without Life or Nature you get no healing spells which is a major flaw in
Sorcery-Chaos mages (they get Polymorph Wounds but casting that with low hp
could get you killed 1 in 5 times). Even in Vanilla you get cure light wounds
which helps a mage/rogue/ranger regenerate hp's in tight spots.
Zangband is *tough*.
Mark Constantino
Billy Bissette
> > Spells *have* to be duplicated in different realms or else anyone but a
> >Sorcery/Chaos Mage would be dead meat. And if you're a S/C mage, you
> >still get all the needed early spells (except for Stinking Cloud, which is
> >a Death spell) - Detect Monsters, Detect Doors/Stairs, Light Area, Phase
> >Door/Blink, Teleportation, Magic Missile and other damage spells. Mages
> >do just fine in the early game, *especially* if they choose Sorcery and
> >Chaos. Try a Priest next, Life and Chaos, and *then* try and tell us the
> >magic system sucks.
> > [as for the Stone to Mud issue you mentioned, there has to be a reason
> >for non-Rangers to choose Nature]
I'm not saying the effects of certain spells shouldn't be duplicated
over realms. In fact I'm asking for it to occur more (with a way for
chaos to destroy walls, or as you mention, a low level area spell).
At the same time, I'm asking that the duplicated spells be differentiated
a bit. Two copies of Phase Door is a waste. Why not customize them
even more for the realm they come from. Keep the same basic effect of
moving the player a few spaces for a quick escape, but change exactly
how or even whatever else may happen. Same with Light Area, and other
duplications of spells.
And Nature isn't that bad. Stone to Mud alone doesn't cause people
to choose Nature. And if it were, all that means is that Nature needs
reworking, not that another realm shouldn't have a way to remove rock
fairly neatly.
Eric Nastav
On 1 Dec 1997, Joseph William Dixon wrote:
> Spells *have* to be duplicated in different realms or else anyone but a
> Sorcery/Chaos Mage would be dead meat. And if you're a S/C mage, you
> still get all the needed early spells (except for Stinking Cloud, which is
> a Death spell) - Detect Monsters, Detect Doors/Stairs, Light Area, Phase
> Door/Blink, Teleportation, Magic Missile and other damage spells. Mages
> do just fine in the early game, *especially* if they choose Sorcery and
> Chaos. Try a Priest next, Life and Chaos, and *then* try and tell us the
> magic system sucks.
I disagree that the magic system HAS to have spells duplicated in order
to ensure survival. There have been plenty of people who play with the
strategy that if they aren't using Chaos magic(and are a mage or priest)
then they choose a tougher race. This wouldn't be necesary if the
duplication of spells between spell areas was that effective.
I was actually disappointed to see phase door and light in both red and
blue books. I think light should be in blue and phase door in red. Phase
door is iffy, but the light spell definitely doesn't belong in chaos.
There's nothing random or chaotic about it. It's much more a utility
spell, which clearly falls into sorcery.
Try a mage with green/blue magic and tell THEN try to tell us the
overlap of spells counteracts the mortality rate of low level
mages/priests.
Eric
Eric Nastav
On 2 Dec 1997, Wilbur07 wrote:
> the place. At least in Vanilla, Rogues get double resistance with ROS book but
> in Zangband they're out of luck. I'm currently running a Dark Elf Mage
> Sorcery-Nature and I'm having a hard time at the early levels with no offensive
> spells except lightning bolt (and Magic Missile racial talent!).
If you wanted offensive spells, you should have chosen Chaos magic.
Sorcery is for utility. Nature is a mix of red and white with a little
blue I think.
> Also, without Life or Nature you get no healing spells which is a major flaw in
> Sorcery-Chaos mages (they get Polymorph Wounds but casting that with low hp
> could get you killed 1 in 5 times).
No, it's not a major flaw. That's the whole point of the new spell
system.
Even in Vanilla you get cure light wounds
> which helps a mage/rogue/ranger regenerate hp's in tight spots.
> Zangband is *tough*.
>
This isn't Vanilla Angband. ZAngband is supposed to be tough. Cure
light wounds never really helped me beyond level 5.
Eric
Eric Nastav
On 1 Dec 1997, Julian Lighton wrote:
> 3) Rings of Fire/Ice/Acid all activate for temporary resistance, so
> you can swap one in and use it if you see something that will require
> it. (If you're a rogue, you'll certainly have a chance.) (I haven't
> found that hounds require double resistance.)
>
Do they already give you a base resist and activate for temporary
additional? Or do you have to activate them to get the resist at all?
Eric
Julian Lighton
In article <Pine.A32.3.93.971202...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu>,
Eric Nastav <ena...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu> wrote:
>On 1 Dec 1997, Julian Lighton wrote:
>
>> 3) Rings of Fire/Ice/Acid all activate for temporary resistance, so
>>
>additional? Or do you have to activate them to get the resist at all?
They always give the permanent resist, and the activation gives you
the temporary. (Don't know for how long.)
--
Julian Lighton jl...@fragment.com
"I will leave this place..." -- The Tick
Wilbur07
> If you wanted offensive spells, you should have chosen Chaos magic.
>Sorcery is for utility. Nature is a mix of red and white with a little
>blue I think.
What I wanted was a mage with a heal spell and temporary resistance spells.
Chaos only really has offensive bolt or ball spells with its utility spells
duplicated by Sorcery. Also, Stone-to-mud is really handy at times.
>> Also, without Life or Nature you get no healing spells which is a major
>flaw in
>> Sorcery-Chaos mages (they get Polymorph Wounds but casting that with low hp
>> could get you killed 1 in 5 times).
>
> No, it's not a major flaw. That's the whole point of the new spell
>system.
Regardless of whether the point of the spell system is to balance a
spellcaster's powers (eg no healing but offensive spells or no offensive spells
but lots of utility spells) a major drawback of Sorcery-Chaos mages is that
they have no heal spells. Perhaps I used "flaw" in the wrong sense, meaning
"flaw to a character" rather than a "flaw in the game".
>
> Even in Vanilla you get cure light wounds
>> which helps a mage/rogue/ranger regenerate hp's in tight spots.
>> Zangband is *tough*.
>>
> This isn't Vanilla Angband. ZAngband is supposed to be tough. Cure
>light wounds never really helped me beyond level 5.
>
> Eric
>
I use CLW all the time when I'm in a spot I can't rest for too long and I have
the mana to spare to cast a few dozen CLW spells. This happens quite
frequently in Zangband and Angband. It beats teleporting out to a safer
position when you're trying to kill a tough unique that you've beat on and
which would regenerate if you left the area and rested.
Mark Constantino
Joseph William Dixon
On 3 Dec 1997 06:19:05 GMT, wilb...@aol.com wrote:
: I use CLW all the time when I'm in a spot I can't rest for too long and
: I have the mana to spare to cast a few dozen CLW spells. This happens
: quite frequently in Zangband and Angband. It beats teleporting out to a
: safer position when you're trying to kill a tough unique that you've
: beat on and which would regenerate if you left the area and rested.
Guaranteed heal self - scenario: o'@, type c4c4c4c4
Works for any creature that you're the same speed as that can open
doors. [in fact, my Draconian Rogue (Sorcery) used that technique quite
successfully tonight when taking out an Orc pit, after having read a
scroll of Rumour he found earlier on the level - it's boring, but it
*does* work quite nicely. I plan to use that technique often. :]
Martin Zdansky
Eric Nastav (ena...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu) wrote:
> If you wanted offensive spells, you should have chosen Chaos magic.
>Sorcery is for utility. Nature is a mix of red and white with a little
>blue I think.
What should I select if I want some defensive magic? I hoped that Zangband
will have more defensive spells, but there's nothing new, and GoI is still
the same madness as in Vanilla. If I select Sorcery and Chaos then I have no
defensive spells except for GoI, IIRC. I'd like to be able to learn spells
from all realms, so how about giving character some 'magic skills point'
depending on class every time he gains a level, and let the player
distribute them between different realms. Then if you have 25 Sorcery Skill
Points, you can learn level 25 sorcery spells, or something like this.
> This isn't Vanilla Angband. ZAngband is supposed to be tough. Cure
>light wounds never really helped me beyond level 5.
I haven't played Zangband much yet, but in vanilla Angband I do use CLW
fairly often - it's mage's only healing spell, and if I had to quaff CCW
every time I'm bleeding or low on HP (but with enough mana) I'd need to
carry it in big barrel instead of small vials.
--
Martin Zdansky
zdan...@vscht.cz
Bengt Oehman
Joseph William Dixon <aa...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
>
>Guaranteed heal self - scenario: o'@, type c4c4c4c4
Referred to as "the Close the Door Trick". It works until that
monster gets pissed off and decides to bash down the door
instead of just opening it. When he does that, it is time to
change tactics.
/Bengt
--
Bengt Oehman, studying Computer | d9...@efd.lth.se or m8...@abc.se
Engineering at Lund Institute of |
Technology, Sweden | * Friend of LAPHROAIG *
Eric Nastav
On 3 Dec 1997, Wilbur07 wrote:
> What I wanted was a mage with a heal spell and temporary resistance spells.
> Chaos only really has offensive bolt or ball spells with its utility spells
> duplicated by Sorcery. Also, Stone-to-mud is really handy at times.
>
So white green might be best?
> Regardless of whether the point of the spell system is to balance a
> spellcaster's powers (eg no healing but offensive spells or no offensive spells
> but lots of utility spells) a major drawback of Sorcery-Chaos mages is that
> they have no heal spells. Perhaps I used "flaw" in the wrong sense, meaning
> "flaw to a character" rather than a "flaw in the game".
>
You CAN have healing AND damage spells. Red/White(Chaos/Life). I's
simple. If you want to have EVERY spell type, then what's the point of
having separate spell types.
All characters should have at least one drawback or weakness. I could
complain that fighters can't cast spells. There'd be no point to chosing
a mage if fighters could cast spells just as well.
> I use CLW all the time when I'm in a spot I can't rest for too long and I have
> the mana to spare to cast a few dozen CLW spells. This happens quite
> frequently in Zangband and Angband. It beats teleporting out to a safer
> position when you're trying to kill a tough unique that you've beat on and
> which would regenerate if you left the area and rested.
>
Hhmm...usually the situation you are talking about is one where the
monstes are coming to whomp one you and will do damage equal to the amount
you healed within a couple turns. To me this is just delaying the
inevitable. Phase door is random, but gives you a chance of getting to a
spot where you can fully recover.
If you have mana to cast a "few dozen" CLW, you probably have the
ability to cast something more powerful and useful.
Eric
Eric Nastav
On 3 Dec 1997, Martin Zdansky wrote:
> What should I select if I want some defensive magic? I hoped that Zangband
> will have more defensive spells, but there's nothing new, and GoI is still
> the same madness as in Vanilla. If I select Sorcery and Chaos then I have no
> defensive spells except for GoI, IIRC. I'd like to be able to learn spells
> from all realms, so how about giving character some 'magic skills point'
> depending on class every time he gains a level, and let the player
> distribute them between different realms. Then if you have 25 Sorcery Skill
> Points, you can learn level 25 sorcery spells, or something like this.
>
Isn't that rather boring? That'd be like having a Mage/priest in
Vanilla.
If you had access to ALL spells your hit point penalty would be so major
you'd be insta-death bait anyway.
Eric
Martin Zdansky
Eric Nastav (ena...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu) wrote:
> Isn't that rather boring? That'd be like having a Mage/priest in
>Vanilla.
> If you had access to ALL spells your hit point penalty would be so major
>you'd be insta-death bait anyway.
If you only have enough skill points to reach lvl 45 in two realms then you
will think twice about it, because with 5 realms you'll end up with
character weak in all of them. This is just to allow you to use say first
spellbook in every realm.
--
Martin Zdansky
zdan...@vscht.cz
Eric Nastav
On 3 Dec 1997, Martin Zdansky wrote:
> > Isn't that rather boring? That'd be like having a Mage/priest in
> >Vanilla.
> > If you had access to ALL spells your hit point penalty would be so major
> >you'd be insta-death bait anyway.
>
> If you only have enough skill points to reach lvl 45 in two realms then you
> will think twice about it, because with 5 realms you'll end up with
> character weak in all of them. This is just to allow you to use say first
> spellbook in every realm.
>
What?! Are you talking about ZAngband or SAngband? There'd still have
to be more penalty just to have access to more than two.
I suppose it could be done, though. I don't know anyone who'd like that
type of character. Not good at fighting. Not especially stealthy or good
with traps. You'd have to rely of low level damage spells to kill
monsters. Carrying five spellbooks around would be rather challenging,
too.
Eric
Wilbur07
>If you have mana to cast a "few dozen" CLW, you probably have the
>ability to cast something more powerful and useful.
Here's a scenario: You've beat Mr. Unique until he's down to one star but
you're down to less than 100 hp. If you t-port out and rest Mr. Unique will
have regenerated half his hit points that you've spent a lot of time bringing
down and will have wasted all those nice bolts/arrows/potions that you used to
stay in combat. You have enough mana to bolt Mr. Unique to death but he can
mana bolt you to oblivion since you've got so few hit points. So what do you
do? You t-port/phase door out, cast CLW until you have a decent amount of
hitpoints and then go hunting again . . .
Mark Constantino
Martin Zdansky
Eric Nastav (ena...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu) wrote:
> What?! Are you talking about ZAngband or SAngband? There'd still have
>to be more penalty just to have access to more than two.
What's so unballancing with this idea? In Vanilla my mage can use about
half of the spells, but in Zangband it's only 40%, even if we don't take
into account that in vanilla many mage spells have their siblings (or even
differently named clones) in priest's spellbooks, while sorcery/chaos mage's
spellbooks contain some spells twice. In Zangband sorcery/chaos mage craves
for any healing (except polymorph wounds in third spellbook), lives without
any elemental resistance spell, and his first ball spell is lvl 25 fireball.
--
Martin Zdansky
zdan...@vscht.cz
Eric Nastav
Well, why wouldn't you cast something like cure medium or serious
wounds? I don't know if either has a better mana to heal hp ratio, but
they sure as heck take less time than casting 12 CLWs.
Secondly, if you have to "hunt" him again he'll probabaly be healed back
to full or close to it. So you might as well just rest back to full.
The T-port/phase door in this situation is what saves you, not the CLW.
Eric
Eric Nastav
Yes, Martin, but didn't you suggest that the class you are proposing
would only have access to the first spellbook of each spell type?
I still fail to see why you are whining that a sorcery/chaos mage has no
heal spells. If you wanted heal spells you should have chosen life/chaos
or sorcery/life. It's that simple. A regular mage in vanilla doesn't get
any more heal spells than a cure light wounds, does he?(it's been a
while...). Neither do they get elemental resist spell until Resistance
Scarab... In Zbnd you can get resists in the basic books.
Why do you have to have a ball spell so early on? Vanilla mages just
get stinking cloud. That's a pretty weak spell past say 400ft. I'd MUCH
rather have lightning bolt or frost bolt.
I don't understand at all why you are complaining about not getting
"ball spells" early on and chaos/sorcery mages having no heal spells.
Eric
Eric Nastav
On 4 Dec 1997, Glacky wrote:
> >Referred to as "the Close the Door Trick". It works until that
> >monster gets pissed off and decides to bash down the door
> >instead of just opening it. When he does that, it is time to
> >change tactics.
> >
> or the Orc Shaman behind it decides to blink and ends up right behind you ;)
> or you don't see the pack of air hounds creeping up behind it ;)
> or you miss 'c' and hit 'v', so you end up throwing your 4th spellbook at it
> ;)
>
> in fact, it's a pretty poor (and slow) (and dangerous) method of heal-self.
>
Well, you probably wouldn't use it unless you were desparate. Obviously
it is slow. But if you have no healing potions, healing spells, phase
door/teleport scrools/spells, then you are desparate.
Running away may attract more monsters depending on how much of the
level you have cleared out. Or you could find a stairwell.
Eric
Martin Zdansky
Eric Nastav (ena...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu) wrote:
> Yes, Martin, but didn't you suggest that the class you are proposing
>would only have access to the first spellbook of each spell type?
I said he should be able to use all spellbooks in two chosen realms plus
first spellbooks from other realms - maybe with exception of sorcery for
priestly classes and life for mage types.
> I still fail to see why you are whining that a sorcery/chaos mage has no
>heal spells. If you wanted heal spells you should have chosen life/chaos
>or sorcery/life. It's that simple. A regular mage in vanilla doesn't get
>any more heal spells than a cure light wounds, does he?(it's been a
>while...). Neither do they get elemental resist spell until Resistance
>Scarab... In Zbnd you can get resists in the basic books.
I'll not waste time with CLW problem - this is beeing discussed elsewhere
in this newsgroup. But I don't agree with you in the case of elemental
resists - in vanilla you get them in time you start needing them, as
Resistance of Scarabtarices if fairly common spellbook, but in Zangband I'd
have to select something different then sorcery+chaos. As I said, in vanilla
I have more spells and they contain most 'utility' spells available in game.
In Zangband I don't even have turn stone to mud, I have no defensive spells
except for GoI, and I cann't genocide hounds. So it looks that my basical
strategy will be hanging aroud 2500 ft until lvl 45, and then force diving
(with few pauses) to 5000ft.
> Why do you have to have a ball spell so early on? Vanilla mages just
>get stinking cloud. That's a pretty weak spell past say 400ft. I'd MUCH
>rather have lightning bolt or frost bolt.
Breeders.
--
Martin Zdansky
zdan...@vscht.cz
Eric Nastav
On 4 Dec 1997, Martin Zdansky wrote:
> I said he should be able to use all spellbooks in two chosen realms plus
> first spellbooks from other realms - maybe with exception of sorcery for
> priestly classes and life for mage types.
>
That's crazy. First of all, would you carry all those books around as a
1-10th level character?
Second of all, you are still defeating the purpose of having different
spell types. If ZAngband were supposed to be like Angband and give
Sorcerors cure light wounds or whatever, then it wouldn't be ZAngband.
Chaos mages werenb't meant to have cure light wounds. That was
intentionally done. Life mages don't get magic missile.
> I'll not waste time with CLW problem - this is beeing discussed elsewhere
> in this newsgroup. But I don't agree with you in the case of elemental
> resists - in vanilla you get them in time you start needing them, as
> Resistance of Scarabtarices if fairly common spellbook,
It depends what depth you are at. But as has been previously mentioned
in a previous post, basic resist are pretty easy to come by on items.
I personally don't rely on spells for resists. You need mana for attack
spells and you don't know when the resist will wear off.
How do warriors get around it? They don't have ANY spells...
but in Zangband I'd
> have to select something different then sorcery+chaos. As I said, in vanilla
> I have more spells and they contain most 'utility' spells available in game.
> In Zangband I don't even have turn stone to mud, I have no defensive spells
> except for GoI, and I cann't genocide hounds. So it looks that my basical
> strategy will be hanging aroud 2500 ft until lvl 45, and then force diving
> (with few pauses) to 5000ft.
>
I'd say phase door and t-port are pretty good defensive spells. The
polymorphs are, too.
You can't deal with hounds except for Genociding them?!?!?!
> > Why do you have to have a ball spell so early on? Vanilla mages just
> >get stinking cloud. That's a pretty weak spell past say 400ft. I'd MUCH
> >rather have lightning bolt or frost bolt.
> Breeders.
>
The only way you can deal with breeders is Stinking Cloud?! I can wipe
out worm masses by meleeing with them. The I can use arrows/bolts from a
distance. If that doesn't work, just run and close a door. Heck, how do
you think warriors deal with them. You don't have to kill everything you
meet as the Rumour says.
Eric
Joseph William Dixon
On 4 Dec 1997 04:14:04 GMT, wilb...@aol.com wrote:
: Here's a scenario: You've beat Mr. Unique until he's down to one star
: but you're down to less than 100 hp. If you t-port out and rest Mr.
: Unique will have regenerated half his hit points that you've spent a lot
: of time bringing down and will have wasted all those nice
: bolts/arrows/potions that you used to stay in combat. You have enough
: mana to bolt Mr. Unique to death but he can mana bolt you to oblivion
: since you've got so few hit points. So what do you do? You
: t-port/phase door out, cast CLW until you have a decent amount of
: hitpoints and then go hunting again . . .
More rational players would save their mana for offense and chug a Cure
Critical Wounds potion (or Healing, depending on depth), then whack that
nastybad unique that forced you to use a potion into oblivion. :)
Personally, once I hit 500' or so, I never leave home without 10 CCW
potions if I can help it, regardless of class.
Glacky
Bengt Oehman at d9...@efd.lth.se said this on 3 Dec 1997 10:57:29 GMT...
>
>Joseph William Dixon <aa...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
>>
>>Guaranteed heal self - scenario: o'@, type c4c4c4c4
>
>monster gets pissed off and decides to bash down the door
>instead of just opening it. When he does that, it is time to
>change tactics.
>
or the Orc Shaman behind it decides to blink and ends up right behind you ;)
or you don't see the pack of air hounds creeping up behind it ;)
or you miss 'c' and hit 'v', so you end up throwing your 4th spellbook at it
;)
in fact, it's a pretty poor (and slow) (and dangerous) method of heal-self.
Glacky
Paul Murray
On 4 Dec 1997 09:57:57 GMT, Joseph William Dixon <aa...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
> More rational players would save their mana for offense and chug a Cure
>Critical Wounds potion (or Healing, depending on depth), then whack that
>nastybad unique that forced you to use a potion into oblivion. :)
> Personally, once I hit 500' or so, I never leave home without 10 CCW
>potions if I can help it, regardless of class.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but once I'm anywhere near 1000' as a warrior-type
character, I carry at lest 10 word of recall, 20 CCW and 30 phase door, you
can never have too many, and it makes packs of hounds breathing at you less
of a problem.
-Paul Murray
Doug Jacobs
Eric Nastav <ena...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu> wrote:
> You can't deal with hounds except for Genociding them?!?!?!
Well, they _are_ really annoying. In vanilla Angband, once I'd learn
Genocide, I'd nuke Z's, ,'s, m's, j's, and g's. They just aren't worth
it at that point. (plus the hounds do too much damage to my inventory.)
> The only way you can deal with breeders is Stinking Cloud?! I can wipe
> out worm masses by meleeing with them. The I can use arrows/bolts from a
> distance. If that doesn't work, just run and close a door. Heck, how do
> you think warriors deal with them. You don't have to kill everything you
> meet as the Rumour says.
Worms aren't as big a deal...they don't breed as fast, as, say Software
Bugs or lice. My Draconian mage has been pushed off far too many levels
due to bug infestations. He's a mage, not a fighter...still has problems
even whacking the folks in town, much less real monsters. I sorely miss
stinking cloud from the Chaos spellbook... :(
I also think that stone->mud should be a chaotic spell too after all it
is destructive.
Why not create a spell called "Spell of wonder" which would work like the
wand of wonder ;)
Gwyn Judd
In article <slrn68d1dq.i8...@unix1.netaxs.com>,
murra...@usa.net (Paul Murray) wrote:
Not paranoid at all, I was at 750' and a Gnome mage summonsed about 10
Earth Hounds and Light hounds (the Earth Hounds were normally at 1250 I
think) the thing that saved me was Phase doors and lots of crossbow bolts.
I don't carry as many WoR's as that (yet) but frankly I get more
(paranoid) cautious the deeper I get. Also I find a few speed potions can
be real handy in close encounters.
On a slightly different note I was in a "Special feeling" Arena level and
I stumbled across about 100 orcs, urucs and Golfimbul was right in the
middle. None of them woke up straight away (except for 'Bul and he
couldn't get at me) so I stood off at maximum range and shot out a tunnel
for him to come out. I then quaffed a potion of speed and took him out
before he had time to move four squares towards me (I loved his final
words "Golfimbul says 'F***'":-).
--
Gwyn Judd | Slob and all around good-for-nothing
b.j...@xtra.co.nz | working on the proverbial "killer app."
Joseph William Dixon
On 4 Dec 1997 15:59:38 GMT, zdan...@vscht.cz wrote:
: I'll not waste time with CLW problem - this is beeing discussed elsewhere
: in this newsgroup. But I don't agree with you in the case of elemental
: resists - in vanilla you get them in time you start needing them, as
: have to select something different then sorcery+chaos. As I said, in vanilla
: I have more spells and they contain most 'utility' spells available in game.
: In Zangband I don't even have turn stone to mud, I have no defensive spells
: except for GoI, and I cann't genocide hounds. So it looks that my basical
: strategy will be hanging aroud 2500 ft until lvl 45, and then force diving
: (with few pauses) to 5000ft.
Bah. Once you get to the point where you *need* Resistance, potions of
Resistance are quite common, and buying them from the Black Market [at
around 900-1000au each] won't put a dent in your wallet. Plus, since
you'll need (at most) 8 slots for spellbooks, carrying those potions makes
you no worse off than in vanilla Angband. [4 slots for Rogues, which makes
them well off compared to vanilla]
: > Why do you have to have a ball spell so early on? Vanilla mages just
: >get stinking cloud. That's a pretty weak spell past say 400ft. I'd MUCH
: >rather have lightning bolt or frost bolt.
: Breeders.
True. I have to agree with you there, despite the fact that it doesn't
do enough to help stop Leprechauns [they being far too fast and never
staying in groups] or Gremlins [they being resistant to Poison]. But if
you're that desperate for ball spells, play a Draconian. :) Their breaths
do wonders against breeders. [and makes farming them sooo easy! ;]
Wilbur07
> Well, why wouldn't you cast something like cure medium or serious
>wounds? I don't know if either has a better mana to heal hp ratio, but
>they sure as heck take less time than casting 12 CLWs.
Mages, rogues and rangers don't get CMW or CCW.
> Secondly, if you have to "hunt" him again he'll probabaly be healed back
>to full or close to it. So you might as well just rest back to full.
Not if you head back as fast as you can (possibly t-porting until you get
close). If you rest back to full you know he'll have regenerated whereas if
you come back in 50 turns he won't have regenerated. You can do the same thing
using potions rather than spells (quaff a dozen CCW's to get back hp's -- if
you do it in LOS of Mr. Unique he might mana bolt you in the meantime).
> The T-port/phase door in this situation is what saves you, not the CLW.
>
Yes t-port saves you but CLW allows you to go back as soon as possible, which
is good for reasons cited above.
> Eric
>
>
>
Mark Constantino
Glacky
Doug Jacobs at dja...@tsoft.com said this on 4 Dec 97 21:57:12 GMT...
>
<snip>
>I also think that stone->mud should be a chaotic spell too after all it
>is destructive.
If it is chaotic then it should be more like Earthquake, but with radius 1.
>Why not create a spell called "Spell of wonder" which would work like the
>wand of wonder ;)
sounds neat. Spell of Dragon's Breath?
I personally think that the Chaos spells should be more, well, chaotic. Have
some more side-effects put into the low-level spells, and some non-destructive
high-level spells too (like Polymorph Weapon/Armour perhaps, with a fairly
high chance of destruction?)
Glacky
Eric Nastav
On 4 Dec 1997, Doug Jacobs wrote:
> Why not create a spell called "Spell of wonder" which would work like the
> wand of wonder ;)
>
Hhmhmm...maybe even a new magic book for Wild Magic. Have different
lists of possible effects and assign a spell to randomly pick from each
list when it is cast. Have other spells have less predictable durations
and damage. Instead of doing 4d6 damage have it do 1-40.
Eric
Eric Nastav
On 5 Dec 1997, Wilbur07 wrote:
> > Well, why wouldn't you cast something like cure medium or serious
> >wounds? I don't know if either has a better mana to heal hp ratio, but
> >they sure as heck take less time than casting 12 CLWs.
>
> Mages, rogues and rangers don't get CMW or CCW.
>
Can't MAges and rangers learn Life magic?
> > Secondly, if you have to "hunt" him again he'll probabaly be healed back
> >to full or close to it. So you might as well just rest back to full.
>
> Not if you head back as fast as you can (possibly t-porting until you get
> close). If you rest back to full you know he'll have regenerated whereas if
> you come back in 50 turns he won't have regenerated. You can do the same thing
> using potions rather than spells (quaff a dozen CCW's to get back hp's -- if
> you do it in LOS of Mr. Unique he might mana bolt you in the meantime).
>
Randomly teleporting to get close to a unique you are hunting? You must
have a LOT of mana to spare... If you're spending that much mana you
won't have enough to kill him with spells typically.
A unique takes MORE than 50 turns to heal back to full!? Are you sure
about that?
Heal using potions? How can you complain about not having CLW if you
can simply use potions as you suggest?
Mark, aren't you being just a little bit unrealistic?
Eric
Wilbur07
>> Mages, rogues and rangers don't get CMW or CCW.
>>
> Can't MAges and rangers learn Life magic?
Yes, mages can learn Life but at the expense of Sorcery (Identify, Haste Self,
etc) or Chaos (MM, various ball/bolt spells). I don't think rangers can learn
Life magic.
>Randomly teleporting to get close to a unique you are hunting? You must
>have a LOT of mana to spare... If you're spending that much mana you
>won't have enough to kill him with spells typically.
Well if you want to t-port to the right quadrant it shouldn't take more than 3
or 4 spells at 6 mana apiece; that's not much at all.
>A unique takes MORE than 50 turns to heal back to full!? Are you sure
>about that?
Definitely sure. Try it sometime. Hit an orc until its down to one star and
then rest for 50 turns to see how much it regenerated.
>Heal using potions? How can you complain about not having CLW if you
>can simply use potions as you suggest?
> Mark, aren't you being just a little bit unrealistic?
You don't always have potions available (especially if you've been in a big
fight) but you almost always have a spellbook available. I am arguing that CLW
would be a warranted spell addition for blue/red mages and I don't think I'm
being unrealistic in supposing that a powerful mage would have access to a
healing spell or two.
Mark Constantino
Stephen S. Lee
In article <Pine.A32.3.93.971205...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu>,
Eric Nastav <ena...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu> wrote:
[snip]
> A unique takes MORE than 50 turns to heal back to full!? Are you sure
>about that?
Yes, he's quite right.
> Heal using potions? How can you complain about not having CLW if you
>can simply use potions as you suggest?
Well, that's a *lot* of potions, you know.
I don't find myself in the position of having to use Mark's tactics often,
but it does come in handy every once in a great while for me.
--
This .sig currently undergoing renovation
Eric Nastav
On 5 Dec 1997, Wilbur07 wrote:
> >> Mages, rogues and rangers don't get CMW or CCW.
> >>
> > Can't MAges and rangers learn Life magic?
>
> Yes, mages can learn Life but at the expense of Sorcery (Identify, Haste Self,
> etc) or Chaos (MM, various ball/bolt spells). I don't think rangers can learn
> Life magic.
>
OK, so why were you saying mages don't get cure medium or
serious wounds? And it's not any the "expense of" of getting Sorcery
magic. You can have a Life/Sorcery mage.
> >Randomly teleporting to get close to a unique you are hunting? You must
> >have a LOT of mana to spare... If you're spending that much mana you
> >won't have enough to kill him with spells typically.
>
> Well if you want to t-port to the right quadrant it shouldn't take more than 3
> or 4 spells at 6 mana apiece; that's not much at all.
>
Yeah, right. How did you determine that?
How will you know if you are in the uniques "quadrant"? You have to use
MORE mana for a detect spell. And being in the same quadrant doesn't mean
you'll be able to get to them quickly. It dpends on how the dungeon is
made. You may actually have to go through two other quadrants to get to
them.
> >A unique takes MORE than 50 turns to heal back to full!? Are you sure
> >about that?
>
> Definitely sure. Try it sometime. Hit an orc until its down to one star and
> then rest for 50 turns to see how much it regenerated.
>
An orc is not a unique. And some of them can cast heal spells on
themselves. Why don't you try it with Robinhood or wormtongue and let me
know. :)
> >Heal using potions? How can you complain about not having CLW if you
> >can simply use potions as you suggest?
> > Mark, aren't you being just a little bit unrealistic?
>
> You don't always have potions available (especially if you've been in a big
> fight) but you almost always have a spellbook available. I am arguing that CLW
> would be a warranted spell addition for blue/red mages and I don't think I'm
> being unrealistic in supposing that a powerful mage would have access to a
> healing spell or two.
>
Spellbooks aren't always available. Ever seen any fire-breathing
monsters before? But my point still stands that if you can just use a
potion as you suggest than Mages who don't use Life magic have a pretty
easy way to heal without resting. That's the way warriors do it since
they don't get Life magic either.
Mark, mages DO get access to healing magic. When you make a character
you can choose to learn Life magic. Doesn't blue have some wierd
polymorph heal spell?
Eric
Eric Nastav
On 6 Dec 1997, Stephen S. Lee wrote:
> In article <Pine.A32.3.93.971205...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu>,
> Eric Nastav <ena...@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu> wrote:
> [snip]
> > A unique takes MORE than 50 turns to heal back to full!? Are you sure
> >about that?
>
> Yes, he's quite right.
>
I've had Wormtongue heal back to full while I was fighting him; by using
heal spells on himself. I suppose it depends on which one you are talking
about. I assume they only use heal spell while in your presence...?
> > Heal using potions? How can you complain about not having CLW if you
> >can simply use potions as you suggest?
>
> Well, that's a *lot* of potions, you know.
>
He originally suggested a dozen Cure Light Wounds spells. That's a lot
of Cure Light Wounds. I think it's be much wiser to use the mana for
offensive spells and save for the a teleport spell if you need to escape.
You never know when that 9-headed hydra is going to wander in after you've
been beat up by Kavlax or someone.
> I don't find myself in the position of having to use Mark's tactics often,
> but it does come in handy every once in a great while for me.
>
I don't care what his tactics are all that much. It's just that he's
complaining that mages who don't choose Life magic don't get many heal
spells. Seems just a little bit ridiculous; since the general idea is
that you choose Life magic if you want to have a lot of heal/defensive
spells.
Eric
Jonathan L. Ellis
A few thoughts on ZAngband magic...
(1) The point of a mage is to be able to kill monsters with spells. A
mage who cannot cast some sort of attacking spell even at first level is
useless.
(2) The point of the "Death" sphere of magic is to cause, er, death.
Therefore it should be littered with offensive spells all the way up, right
from the very first level. The first attacking spell they get is "Stinking
Cloud" - which is useless against the most dangerous first level monsters
(i.e. kobolds) that a character could easily meet at 1st level.
(3) It seems that if mages want to have an offensive spell from the
start, they must choose Chaos. Why should all decent mages *have* to play with
Chaos? Given that Sorcery is practically a necessity (Detect Monsters, Detect
Traps to name but two), almost no other mage has much chance of surviving very
long at all. (If they do, that's another story.)
I'd like to suggest that ZAngband could adapt the SAngband system of
magic to its own devices. I suggest the following system:
(1) "Pure" spellcasters choose from two spheres, as now. They are divided
into a "first study", class-based, and a "second study", free of class
restrictions (with some exceptions) in which the spells demand a higher player
level, mana cost and failure rate. (See (3).)
(2) Warrior-spellcasters (Rogue, Paladin, Death Knight, Ranger) work
better, as warrior-types can kill monsters more easily. The Paladin learns
only life magic (as if it were a second study), the Death Knight learns only
Death Magic (ditto), and the Rogue and Ranger are left as they are (but
maybe neither should be able to choose life or death, as there are the
provinces of Paladins and Death Knights)
(3) "Sorcery" should have _some_ spells, at least, with pure mana damage
(unresisted by anything) - say 1 such spell per book, Magic Missile in the
first. "Death" should also have a Magic Missile equivalent (the Detect Demon
and Detect Undead spells can be amalgamated to make room for this.) Maybe a
life-draining version that fails against undead? Chaos loses Magic Missile to
make up for this (put something else in instead, at a higher level maybe...)
(4) My idea for the "pure" spellcasters is based on SAngband, where there
are four such classes: Mage, Priest, Druid, Necromancer.
_ Mage_: must learn Sorcery, may not choose Life as second study.
(Mages have great magical power, but some things are forbidden: they may not
heal, nor call upon the power of the gods.)
_Priest_: must learn Life, may not choose Sorcery as second
study. (Priests are healers and holy men, and will eventually receive spells
that damage evil creatures (e.g. OoD.) But even those who choose Chaos are
forbidden to use practice sorcery which calls on no god at all for its power.)
_Necromancer_: must learn Death, may not choose Nature as second study.
(Necromancers thus can kill things from the start, but their magic is totally
against nature: perhaps their first level Magic-Missile-equivalent should be a
life-draining one that does not work on undead.)
_Druid_: must learn Nature, may not choose Death as a
second study. (A Druid has respect for all living things, and does not seek to
twist or destroy their life forces.)
(5) Apart from the restrictions above, all spheres of magic may be chosen
as second study, including Chaos (available for all classes) - which, though
it should not have a Magic Missile equivalent (it's surely easy to cook up
something else instead), still has the most powerful offensive spells. But you
have to wait longest for them, where choosing a different second study would
get more spells earlier. (Not as early as it would be for a first study:
Priests of Death cannot get the Death MM-equivalent at the very first level,
of course. But they can get it eventually.)
(6) Priests and Druids should be able to fight better than Mages and
Necromancers (maybe the first two use WIS as their mana stat, and get them at
random from the chosen book, like prayers, where the last two use INT for mana
and get to choose their spells, as usual) on account of the latter two being
more biased towards offensive spells.
(7) Some stat modifiers should also be changed to reflect this - maybe
Necromancers should have a better CON modifier than Mages (a stronger hold on
their own life force), but a lousy CHA as befits a practitioner of the foul
art of death sorcery: while Druids might have a better INT or CHA than Priests
but a lower STR or CON. (They do, after all, get lightning bolt earlier than
Priests get OoD (probably, anyway) so lower physical stats would not be so
bad as they get offensive magic earlier.)
(8) Nature books could then go into the Temple among the prayer books, or
perhaps all books should be sold in a bookstore (another SAngband idea)
leaving the main stores free for more stuff.
Just my 2 pence worth.... I'd code it myself, but I haven't the faintest
idea how (I've only just mastered the idea of modifying the *_info.txt files -
in this case to make *ID* scrolls more common owing to random resists and
random artifacts.)
Jonathan Ellis.
Eric Nastav
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Jonathan L. Ellis wrote:
> A few thoughts on ZAngband magic...
>
> (1) The point of a mage is to be able to kill monsters with spells. A
> mage who cannot cast some sort of attacking spell even at first level is
> useless.
That's not really "the point" of a mage. There are ways of killing
monsters indirectly. Like an Illusionist in KAngband has mnore
Confusion/Stun spells IIRC. So he would confuse an opponent to minimize
the damage he takes in hand-to-hand combat with it; or to make it a target
for his bow for a longer period of time(i.e. the target won't be chasing
him).
> (2) The point of the "Death" sphere of magic is to cause, er, death.
> Therefore it should be littered with offensive spells all the way up, right
> from the very first level. The first attacking spell they get is "Stinking
> Cloud" - which is useless against the most dangerous first level monsters
> (i.e. kobolds) that a character could easily meet at 1st level.
Hhmm..to "cause" death? Not really. It is deal with things undead and
death in general. Poison is associated with death. Rot/decomposition is
associated with death. Hence you have poison/stinking cloud spells.
> (3) It seems that if mages want to have an offensive spell from the
> start, they must choose Chaos. Why should all decent mages *have* to play with
> Chaos? Given that Sorcery is practically a necessity (Detect Monsters, Detect
> Traps to name but two), almost no other mage has much chance of surviving very
> long at all. (If they do, that's another story.)
>
Yes, but Life Priests apparently end up being able to do more damage per
mana in the long run.
> I'd like to suggest that ZAngband could adapt the SAngband system of
> magic to its own devices. I suggest the following system:
>
> (1) "Pure" spellcasters choose from two spheres, as now. They are divided
> into a "first study", class-based, and a "second study", free of class
> restrictions (with some exceptions) in which the spells demand a higher player
> level, mana cost and failure rate. (See (3).)
>
> (3) "Sorcery" should have _some_ spells, at least, with pure mana damage
> (unresisted by anything) - say 1 such spell per book, Magic Missile in the
> first. "Death" should also have a Magic Missile equivalent (the Detect Demon
> and Detect Undead spells can be amalgamated to make room for this.) Maybe a
> life-draining version that fails against undead? Chaos loses Magic Missile to
> make up for this (put something else in instead, at a higher level maybe...)
>
The whole idea with the spell system is that you get different functions
of spells from different spell areas. So if you think damage early on is
that important, then chose Chaos plus whatever. Otherwise, there isn't
much point in having different spell areas. You might as well just be a
vanilla angband mage.
If one area has the "magic missile" equivalent then death mages with
play like chaos mages. What's the point?
> _Priest_: must learn Life, may not choose Sorcery as second
> study. (Priests are healers and holy men, and will eventually receive spells
> that damage evil creatures (e.g. OoD.) But even those who choose Chaos are
> forbidden to use practice sorcery which calls on no god at all for its power.)
>
How is it that Priests can learn Chaos rather than Sorcery. Chaos semm
more like it should be forbidden to Priests.
> _Necromancer_: must learn Death, may not choose Nature as second study.
> (Necromancers thus can kill things from the start, but their magic is totally
> against nature: perhaps their first level Magic-Missile-equivalent should be a
> life-draining one that does not work on undead.)
>
A first level life draining magiuc missile
would haveto be expensive mana wise. It's pretty powerful.
Eric