Angband uniques list version 0.10
Chris Kern
Guide to Angband Uniques
v. 0.10 by Chris Kern
Oct. 18, 1999
This guide is an attempt to account for the derivations of all the
uniques that appear in Angband. I went through the list in the order
they appear in the game, or put "origin unknown" if I was not sure.
Anything in brackets is a side note, which may or may not be removed
in the final version.
Please do *not* repost this or put it up on any web pages until a
version numbered "1.0" appears. I don't want an unfinished document
with my name on it appearing on web pages that are never updated
again.
Now I am seeking help from rec.games.roguelike.angband. Any comments
are appreciated. Ideally I would want all of the "origin unknowns"
removed before a final version.
I am working now on a complement to this document about Angband's
artifacts.
Sources used so far:
LOTR - Lord of the Rings. Because of the numerous versions of this
work, I refer to book and chapter rather than a specific page. The
index can be used to find most of them.
Hobbit. References by chapter.
Silm - The Silmarillion. I hope to get page numbers for the Houghton
Mifflin version in here eventually, but all the names can be found in
the index.
UT - Unfinished Tales. Page references are for the Houghton Mifflin
edition.
HoME I - XII - History of Middle Earth. The Silmarillion has been
normally preferred over these sources due to its greater readership,
however, some details have been taken from Morgoth's Ring and War of
the Jewels.
Bible. Quotes in standard chapter:verse form.
AD&D - Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. No references have been made to
specific pages or works, perhaps this should be added.
1. Farmer Maggot - (LOTR I, ch 4 - A Shortcut to Mushrooms) A hobbit
farmer living near Hobbiton. He helps the hobbits by giving them
mushrooms. Has three fierce dogs.
2. Grip, Farmer Maggot's Dog - (LOTR I, ch 4 - A Shortcut to
Mushrooms) One of Farmer Maggot's dogs.
3. Fang, Farmer Maggot's Dog - (LOTR I, ch 4 - A Shortcut to
Mushrooms) One of Farmer Maggot's dogs.
4. Smeagol (Hobbit, ch 5 - Riddles in the Dark LOTR I ch 2 - A Shadow
of the Past, IV & VI throughout) - Also known as Gollum. Had the One
Ring before Bilbo stole it from him. Aids in the destruction of the
One Ring by biting Frodo's finger off and then falling into Orodruin.
5. Bullroarer the Hobbit (Hobbit, ch 1 - An Unexpected Party) - The
Old Took's great-granduncle. Killed Golfimbul in the Battle of Green
Fields at Mount Gram.
6. Mughash the Kobold Lord (LOTR VI, ch 1 - The Tower of Cirith Ungol)
- Named Muzgash in the book, a random orc who gets killed.
7. Wormtongue, Agent of Saruman (LOTR III, VI) - Once an advisor to
Theoden, he later became Saruman's agent. He throws the Palantir at
Pippin and later kills Saruman.
8. Lagduf the Snaga (LOTR VI, ch 1 - The Tower of Cirith Ungol) A
random orc who is killed.
9. Brodda, the Easterling (Silmarillion 198,215; UT 104-109) - An
easterling who takes Morwen. Slain by Turin.
10. Golfimbul the Hill Orc (Hobbit, ch 1 - An Unexpected Party) -
Killed by Bullroarer.
11. Orfax, son of Boldor (source unknown)
12. Grishnakh the Hill Orc (LOTR III, ch 3 - The Uruk-hai) - A member
of the Uruk-Hai that guards Pippin and Merry.
13. Boldor, King of the Yeeks (source unknown)
14. Ufthak of Cirith Ungol (LOTR IV, ch 10 - The Choices of Master
Samwise) - Orc that was slain by Shelob. Shagrat uses him as an
example of Shelob's various types of poison.
15. Ulfast, son of Ulfang (Silm, ch. 20 - Of the Fifth Battle)
Ulfast was one of the treacherous men of the east that betrayed
Maedhros in the Fifth Battle. He was slain by the sons of Bor.
16. Nar, the Dwarf (Appendix A to LOTR) - Nar traveled into Khazad-dum
with Thror. Azog slew Thror, and Nar fled to tell the rest of the
dwarves about it.
17. Gorbag, the Orc Captain (LOTR IV, ch 10 - The Choices of Master
Samwise, LOTR VI ch 1 - The Tower of Cirith Ungol) An orc of Cirith
Ungol, one of the captors of Frodo. Shagrat slit his throat.
18. Shagrat, the Orc Captain (LOTR IV, ch 10 - The Choices of Master
Samwise, LOTR VI ch 1 - The Tower of Cirith Ungol) Another orc of
Cirith Ungol and the second captor of Frodo. He escaped death at
Sam's hands and ran from Cirith Ungol.
19. Bolg, son of Azog (Hobbit, ch 17 - The Clouds Burst) Bolg was the
leader of the goblins at the Battle of the Five Armies. His manner of
death is unspecified.
19. Ugluk the Uruk (LOTR III, ch 3 - The Uruk-Hai)
Ugluk was the leader of the powerful Uruk-Hai orcs that captured Merry
and Pippin. He was slain by Eomer.
20. Lugdush the Uruk (LOTR III, ch 3 - The Uruk-Hai)
Another Uruk. [Lugdush does not appear in the index, and I could only
find a single reference to him: Ugluk saying, "Follow Lugdush."]
21. Azog, King of the Uruk-Hai (Hobbit, ch 1 - An Unexpected Party)
This leader of the goblins was slain by Dain, the leader of the
Lakemen. Azog killed Thror, the father of Thrain. [The "uruk-hai"
label seems to be an Angband invention. Azog does not appear in
LOTR.]
22. Angamaite of Umbar (Appendix A to LOTR)
Angamaite was the son of Castamir the Usurper, and a leader of the
Corsairs of Umbar.
23. Ibun, son of Mim (UT, p. 102)
A son of Mim. His name is mentioned only once, and nothing further is
said of him.
24. Khim, son of Mim (UT, p. 101)
Mim's other son. Androg slew him with a stray arrow.
25. Sangahyando of Umbar
Sangahyando was the brother of Angamaite. He was also a leader of the
Corsairs of Umbar.
26. Ulwarth, son of Ulfang (Silm, ch 20 - Of the Fifth Battle)
Ulwarth was another son of Ulfang that was slain in the Fifth Battle
by the sons of Bor.
27. Lokkak, the Ogre Chieftain
Origin unknown.
28. Mim, Betrayer of Turin (Silm, ch XX, UT, Narn)
Mim was a petty-dwarf who dwelt in Amon Rudh. He sheltered Turin in
his house, but later he stole the gold of Nargothrond and betrayed the
lair to Orcs. Hurin slew him after his release from Angband.
29. Draebor, the Imp
Origin unknown. [I remember some story that this was a friend of the
original author?]
30. Uldor the Accursed (Silm, ch 20 - Of the Fifth Battle)
The chief of the treacherous men of the east, this son of Ulfang had a
greater role in the Fifth Battle than his brothers. He was slain by
Maglor.
31. Shelob, Spider of Darkness (LOTR IV, ch 9 - Shelob's Lair)
A great spider, Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant. She poisoned
Frodo, but Sam slew her with Sting.
32. Bert the Stone Troll
33. Bill the Stone Troll
34. Tom the Stone Troll (Hobbit, ch 2 - Roast Mutton)
All of these trolls appeared in the same place, a cave near Hobbiton.
They captured Bilbo, but the sun turned them to stone.
35. Ulfang the Black (Silm, ch 18 - Of the Ruin of Beleriand,
ch 20 - Of the Fifth Battle)
A cheif of the Swarthy Men, his sons betrayed Maedhros in the Fifth
Battle. His fate is unknown.
36. Lorgan, Chief of the Easterlings (UT, p. 19; Silm, ch 23 - Of
Tuor)
He enslaved Tuor's people after the Fifth Battle. Lorgan treated Tuor
harshly because he was the son of Huor. Nothing more is said of his
fate.
37. Rogrog the Black Troll
Origin unknown.
38. The Queen Ant
Origin unknown (and is probably not very interesting. The concept of
a "queen ant" is stereotyped in many places.)
39. Castamir the Usurper (Appendix A to LOTR)
Castamir was the grandson of Calimehtar of Gondor. He led rebels to
usupr Eldacar. Later Eldacar slew Castamir and retook the throne.
40. Vargo, the Tyrant of Fire
Origin unknown.
41. Kavlax the Many-Headed
Origin unknown.
42. Waldern, King of Water
Origin unknown. (There is speculation that this was an Angband
invention. The game assigns water immunity based on the symbol being
an "E" and the first letter of the name being a "W". "Waldern" was
probably chosen for this reason.)
43. Medusa, the Gorgon (Greek Mythology)
Medusa was a woman with snakes for hair that could turn people to
stone merely by gazing at them. Perseus defeated her by using a
mirrored shield to avoid her gaze and a sharp sword to behead her.
44. Uvatha the Horseman
45. Adunaphel the Quiet
46. Akhorahil the Blind
These are Ringwraiths. The names are taken from ICE's MERP (Middle
Earth Role Playing) books; they are not genuine Tolkien. This is true
of all the named Ringwraiths save Khamul.
47. Gorlim, Betrayer of Barahir (Silm, ch 19 - Of Beren and Luthien)
One of Barahir's twelve companions, he was tricked by a spirit of his
dead wife into betraying Barahir. Sauron then let him join his dead
wife by killing him. [This really should be changed to "Gorlim the
Unhappy".]
48. Ren the Unclean
49. Ji Indur Dawndeath
More Ringwraiths.
50. Quaker, Master of Earth
Origin unknown.
51. Ariel, Queen of Air
Origin unknown. [Ariel appears in Shakespeare's _Tempest_, and is
said to be a spirit of air. But Shakespeare's Ariel is male. It is
still possible that this is the origin of the unique. Ariel also
appears as a male spirit of air in Goethe's _Faust_. (Probably other
places as well.)]
52. Dwar, Dog Lord of Waw
Another Ringwraith.
53. Scatha the Worm
Appears to be an ICE invention, though I'm not sure about that.
54. Smaug the Golden (Hobbit, throughout)
This fearsome dragon stole the treasures of the 13 dwarves. They took
Bilbo on a quest to slay the dragon. Bard, the bowman of Laketown,
was able to kill him with a black arrow by hitting a weak spot on his
belly.
55. Itangast the Fire Drake
[Is this another ICE invention?]
56. Glaurung, Father of the Dragons (Silm, throughout)
Morgoth's first creation dragon, he was wingless and walked along the
ground. He participated in the Battle of the Sudden Flame and the
Fifth Battle, where he was wounded by the dwarf Azaghal. He enspelled
Turin and Nienor, but the spell was released when Turin killed
Glaurung.
57. Muar, the Balrog (LOTR II, ch 5 - The Bridge of Khazad Dum)
The Balrog of Moria fought with Gandalf. Both died in the battle.
[The name "Muar" is another ICE invention. There have been numerous
proposals to officially change the name to "The Balrog of Moria".]
58. Baphomet the Minotaur Lord
Origin unknown. [Baphomet is a traditional demonic name.]
59. Harowen the Black Hand
Origin unknown.
60. Hoarmurath of Dir
61. Khamul the Easterling (UT, various)
Two more Ringwraiths. The name "Khamul" is authentic Tolkien, and
appears in Unfinished Tales.
62. The Phoenix (Mythology)
A mythological bird that would immerse itself in fire and emerge
reborn [every 1000 years?]
63. The Lernaen Hydra (Greek Mythology)
One of Hercules' quests was to slay the Lernaen Hydra. Its blood was
so poisonous that even touching it would kill a person.
64. Thuringwethil (Silm, or Lay of Leithian)
CT says in the index, "'Woman of Secret Shadow', the messenger of
Sauron from Tol-in-Gaurhoth who took the form of a great bat, and in
whose shape Luthien entered Angband." This is more information than
can be found in the Silmarillion, and I have a feeling that her origin
is in the Lay of Leithian. I do not have volume III of HoME, however.
65. Fundin Bluecloak (LOTR II, ch 4 - A Journey in the Dark)
Balin's father. Apparently this was the name of the first Angband
winner.
66. Uriel, Angel of Fire
Origin unknown [though I believe this is a traditional angel, and he
may appear in Faust.]
67. Azriel, Angel of Death
Origin unknown [is this another tradition?]
68. Ancalagon the Black (Silm, ch 24 - Of the Voyage of Earendil)
Ancalagon was the greatest of Morgoth's winged dragons. Earendil slew
him, and Ancalagon's fall broke the towers of Thangorodrim.
69. Gabriel, the Messenger (Luke 1:19-20, 26-38)
This messenger angel came to tell of the births of John the Baptist
and Jesus.
70. Saruman of Many Colours (LOTR, throughout; UT "Istari")
Saruman, also known as Curumo and Curunir, was the white member of the
Istari. He betrayed their purpose and attempted to gain the Ring for
himself. Eventually he thrown down by Gandalf and later had his
throat slit by Wormtongue.
71. The Cat Lord
Origin unknown. [In the Book of Lost Tales, in the Tale of Tinuviel
and other places, there is a Tevildo, Prince of Cats, but this is not
necessarily the source.]
72. Tselakus, the Dreadlord
Origin unknown.
73. Tiamat, Celestial Dragon fo Evil (Mythology?)
Perhaps a mythological figure. Appears in many games.
74. Vecna, the Emperor Lich (AD&D)
Appears in AD&D 2nd edition through an artifact called "The Hand of
Vecna". Later sourcebooks added more information about this Lich. [I
do not know if Vecna existed before AD&D. The origin of the Hand is
probably not the 2nd edition DMG. If I had to guess, I would say that
Unearthed Arcana had Vecna in it.]
75. Omarax, the Eye Tyrant
Origin unknown.
76. Ungoliant, the Unlight (Silm, ch 8 - 9)
Ungoliant is a dark spirit that would not follow Melkor in the early
days, and instead went to dwell alone in darkness. She hungered for
light and consumed it. Melkor used her power to darken the two trees
while he stole the Silmarils from Formenos. She fled to the south
after this deed, and it is said that in great hunger she consumed
herself.
77. Qlzqqlzuup, the Lord of Flesh
Give me a break. :) [It might be interesting to know how the hell it
was invented.]
78. The Emperor Quylthulg
See #77.
79. The Mouth of Sauron (LOTR V, ch 10 - The Black Gate Opens)
This messenger of Sauron delivered the personal effects of Frodo and
Sam to show that they had been captured. Gandalf would not surrender
or deal with him, and he fled.
80. Murazor, the Witch-King of Angmar (LOTR, throughout)
The chief of Ringwraiths. He was slain at Pellenor Fields by either
Eowyn or Merry (this is an eternal debate on rec.arts.books.tolkien).
[The name "Murazor" is an ICE creation.]
81. Pazuzu, Lord of Air
Origin unknown. (Pazuzu appears in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, so it
must have an origin other than this game.)
82. Cantoras, the Skeletal Lord
Origin unknown.
83. The Tarrasque (AD&D)
This is the fierce Unique beast from the AD&D game. It has a lot of
insane powers and can only be defeated by a Wish spell.
84. Draugluin, Sire of All Werewolves (Silm, ch 19 - Of Beren and
Luthien)
Sauron sent him to fight Huan, the hound of Valinor. The battle was
long, but Huan won. Luthien gave Dragluin's wolf-hame to Beren, who
used it to disguise himself.
85. Feagwath the Undead Sorcerer
Origin unknown.
86. Carcharoth, the Jaws of Thirst (Silm, ch 19 - Of Beren of Luthien)
This terrible hound of darkness bit off Beren's hand and swallowed a
Silmaril. Later he was hunted by a band from Doriath, and he slew and
was slain by Huan.
87. Cerberus, Guardian of Hades (Greek Mythology)
A three-headed, fire-breathing hound that guarded the passage to
Hades.
88. Gothmog, the High Captain of Balrogs (Silm, throughout)
The greatest of Melkor's Balrogs. He slew Feanor, but later at the
battle of Gondolin he slew and was slain by Ecthelion of the Fountain.
89. Sauron, the Sorcerer (LOTR, throughout; Silm, throughout)
In the beginning Sauron was a spirit of Aule, but Melkor perverted him
to evil. Sauron was the greatest spirit of Melkor. In the First Age
he commanded Angband, and he was defeated by Beren and Luthien. At
the end of the First Age he almost repented of his evil, but because
of fear he went back into hiding. He deceived the men of Numenor and
caused them to rebel against Valinor. He was slain in the downfall,
but by the power of his One Ring he was able to take a new form in
Middle-Earth. But Elindil and Gil-Galad overthrew him in the Last
Alliance, and Isildur cut the ring off of Sauron's hand, vanquishing
him again. He took form again in Mirkwood, but was cast out by the
Istari. His final stand was in Mordor, but he was finally defeated by
the destruction of the One Ring, and he "was utterly vanquished and
passed away like a shadow of malice."
90. Morgoth, Lord of Darkness (Silm, throughout)
Melkor was the greatest spirit in Arda, greater than all of the Valar
combined. He turned to evil before the creation of the world. He
strove to throw the Valar out of Arda. He created the castle of
Utumno and the fortress Angband. The Valar came to Utumno and he
allowed himself to be captured to gain access to Valinor. There he
corrupted the Noldor and eventually darkened the two trees. Feanor
named him "Morgoth", and he bore that name forever. He fled back to
Beleriand and entered Angband. He slew Fingolfin at the Battle of
Sudden Flame. He oversaw nearly every evil thing done in the First
Age. Finally he was defeated by the hosts of the west at the end of
the First Age. His feet were cut off, and he was bound with Angainor
and thrust outside of Arda, never to return again.
Comments, of course!
-Chris
Julian Lighton
Chris Kern <ke...@grinnell.edu> wrote:
>This guide is an attempt to account for the derivations of all the
>uniques that appear in Angband.
Going to do Zangband next, or aren't you that masochistic?
>I am working now on a complement to this document about Angband's
>artifacts.
I think you'll find a lot were invented.
>Sources used so far:
>LOTR - Lord of the Rings. Because of the numerous versions of this
>work, I refer to book and chapter rather than a specific page. The
>index can be used to find most of them.
>Hobbit. References by chapter.
>Silm - The Silmarillion. I hope to get page numbers for the Houghton
>Mifflin version in here eventually, but all the names can be found in
>the index.
>UT - Unfinished Tales. Page references are for the Houghton Mifflin
>edition.
>HoME I - XII - History of Middle Earth. The Silmarillion has been
>normally preferred over these sources due to its greater readership,
>however, some details have been taken from Morgoth's Ring and War of
>the Jewels.
>Bible. Quotes in standard chapter:verse form.
>AD&D - Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. No references have been made to
>specific pages or works, perhaps this should be added.
Probably at least the specific books.
>6. Mughash the Kobold Lord (LOTR VI, ch 1 - The Tower of Cirith Ungol)
>- Named Muzgash in the book, a random orc who gets killed.
It is not clear that there is any relation between the two beside the
similarity in names.
>11. Orfax, son of Boldor (source unknown)
>13. Boldor, King of the Yeeks (source unknown)
Angband originals, I'm pretty sure. (Yeeks are a Moria invention) The
same probably applies to all your origin unknowns.
>21. Azog, King of the Uruk-Hai (Hobbit, ch 1 - An Unexpected Party)
>This leader of the goblins was slain by Dain, the leader of the
>Lakemen.
Dain was the leader of the dwarves from the Iron Hills.
>29. Draebor, the Imp
>Origin unknown. [I remember some story that this was a friend of the
>original author?]
Somebody known by the designers. Most definately not a friend. A
dejanews search on the name ought to turn up the details.
>58. Baphomet the Minotaur Lord
>Origin unknown. [Baphomet is a traditional demonic name.]
Seems likely to be a lift from AD&D. Monster Manual 2 has a demon
lord named Baphomet, and I believe makes some association between him
and minotaurs.
>65. Fundin Bluecloak (LOTR II, ch 4 - A Journey in the Dark)
>Balin's father. Apparently this was the name of the first Angband
>winner.
Not Balin's father. Just a dwarf named Fundin. (He was the first
winner, though.)
>71. The Cat Lord
>Origin unknown. [In the Book of Lost Tales, in the Tale of Tinuviel
>and other places, there is a Tevildo, Prince of Cats, but this is not
>necessarily the source.]
MM2 has a Cat Lord.
>73. Tiamat, Celestial Dragon fo Evil (Mythology?)
>Perhaps a mythological figure. Appears in many games.
Name is mythological. (Babylonian and/or Sumerian, IIRC) I think being
a dragon is, too. The monster itself is an AD&D lift. (Monster
Manual)
>74. Vecna, the Emperor Lich (AD&D)
>Appears in AD&D 2nd edition through an artifact called "The Hand of
>Vecna". Later sourcebooks added more information about this Lich. [I
>do not know if Vecna existed before AD&D. The origin of the Hand is
>probably not the 2nd edition DMG. If I had to guess, I would say that
>Unearthed Arcana had Vecna in it.]
Dungeon Master's Guide, 1st edition. Vecna is not there, just the two
artifacts. He came from Gary Gygax's World of Greyhawk. (There was
at least one 2nd ed module about his resurrection.)
>77. Qlzqqlzuup, the Lord of Flesh
>Give me a break. :) [It might be interesting to know how the hell it
>was invented.]
I believe alcohol was involved. (Post on the newsgroup from one of
the creators of Angband.)
>78. The Emperor Quylthulg
>See #77.
Both are Angband originals. (Quylthulgs being another Moria original.)
>80. Murazor, the Witch-King of Angmar (LOTR, throughout)
>The chief of Ringwraiths. He was slain at Pellenor Fields by either
>Eowyn or Merry (this is an eternal debate on rec.arts.books.tolkien).
Don't see why. A stab in the back of the knee is hardly fatal.
Eyowin finished him.
>81. Pazuzu, Lord of Air
>Origin unknown. (Pazuzu appears in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, so it
>must have an origin other than this game.)
AD&D, MM2. The name may be a traditional demon name.
--
Julian Lighton jl...@fragment.com
"Tried to get ahead, but only got decapitated"
-- Soul Asylum
Jason Willoughby
> 11. Orfax, son of Boldor
> 13. Boldor, King of the Yeeks
> 77. Qlzqqlzuup, the Lord of Flesh
> 78. The Emperor Quylthulg
Angband (Moria?) orginals, as the answer to the question "So what
monster do we put on this letter?"
> 37. Rogrog the Black Troll
A web search turns him up in the ME role playing and card games.
> 53. Scatha the Worm
A Celtic goddess (a warrior aspect, and goddess of the underworld),
although that might be coincidental.
http://www.witchs-brew.com/shadows/goddess/scath.html
> 66. Uriel, Angel of Fire
> 67. Azriel, Angel of Death
Uriel (Auriel) means "Light [or Fire] of God", and he is the guard on
the gates of Eden, the one with the flaming sword. Also associated with
alchemy, creativity and change in general. Azriel (Azrael, Izrail) is
one of more than a score of angels named The Angel of Death. Various
Jewish sources call Azrael Fallen, or even outright destroyed for
refusing to obey God. A more modern source says he was banished to
Earth, and is now desperately bored in Wisconsin.
Depending on who you ask, one or both of them may be archangels, along
with Michael and Gabriel, and the disputed Izrafil and Raphael. Izrail
is one of the Islamic archangels, and Jews consider Uriel one, as did
Christians until the Catholic Church demoted him about 1300 years ago.
The source for both is Kabbalistic, possibly from Zoroastrian, possibly
even older.
> 81. Pazuzu, Lord of Air
Mesopotamian "king of the evil wind demons".
Wilbur07
>
>A Celtic goddess (a warrior aspect, and goddess of the underworld),
>although that might be coincidental.
Wait, didn't Eorl the Young slay Scatha the Worm in one of the Appendices of
LotR? Much of the wealth in Meduseld was from the hoard of Scatha, as I
remember (e.g. the horn given to Merry by King Eomer).
Mark Constantino
Jonathan Ellis
Chris Kern wrote in message <384c5e6d...@enews.newsguy.com>...
>
>Guide to Angband Uniques
>v. 0.10 by Chris Kern
>Oct. 18, 1999
>53. Scatha the Worm
>Appears to be an ICE invention, though I'm not sure about that.
Nope. Mentioned in LotR.
>57. Muar, the Balrog (LOTR II, ch 5 - The Bridge of Khazad Dum)
>There have been numerous
>proposals to officially change the name to "The Balrog of Moria".]
Mostly by me.
>60. Hoarmurath of Dir
>61. Khamul the Easterling (UT, various)
>Two more Ringwraiths. The name "Khamul" is authentic Tolkien, and
>appears in Unfinished Tales.
What's the betting that "Khamul" isn't really a name at all but
just a description? Something like "Shadow of the East" in the Black
Speech (I suggest this because one part of "Unfinished tales" refers to
him as "Khamul, the Shadow of the East")... the "ul" part of it is
shared with such terms as "Nazgul" (Ring-Wraith), for example, with
"nazg" certainly meaning "ring" (Ash nazg durbataluk, etc) and thus,
presumably, "-ul" meaning "wraith" or "shadow" or something similar. One
can only speculate what the "kham-" part of his name means in the Black
Speech (my suggestion of "east" comes from his "Shadow of the East"
title), as the only etymology for that syllable is from High-Elven,
clearly *not* the language of his name.
I suggest this because Tolkien seems to have been keen on his
villains either having no names, or losing them: Melkor forfeited his
original name, and "Morgoth" is just a description (Black Foe) - Sauron
is often referred to as "the Nameless Enemy" or similar in Gondor - the
Mouth of Sauron has forgotten his name - the nine Ringwraiths have no
names, unless Khamul is one, and I suspect (as I just mentioned) that
his name is similar to Morgoth's in being not his true name but merely a
description.)
Jonathan.
Chris Kern
Lighton) posted the following:
>>21. Azog, King of the Uruk-Hai (Hobbit, ch 1 - An Unexpected Party)
>>This leader of the goblins was slain by Dain, the leader of the
>>Lakemen.
>
>Dain was the leader of the dwarves from the Iron Hills.
Gaah, you're right!
>>65. Fundin Bluecloak (LOTR II, ch 4 - A Journey in the Dark)
>>Balin's father. Apparently this was the name of the first Angband
>>winner.
>
>Not Balin's father. Just a dwarf named Fundin. (He was the first
>winner, though.)
The Fundin from LoTR was indeed Balin's father, but perhaps I should
just remove that entirely.
>>80. Murazor, the Witch-King of Angmar (LOTR, throughout)
>>The chief of Ringwraiths. He was slain at Pellenor Fields by either
>>Eowyn or Merry (this is an eternal debate on rec.arts.books.tolkien).
>
>Don't see why. A stab in the back of the knee is hardly fatal.
>Eyowin finished him.
I seem to recall this being a big debate. Maybe I'm wrong.
-Chris
Chris Kern
<jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> posted the following:
> What's the betting that "Khamul" isn't really a name at all but
>just a description?
I've heard that argument before.
> I suggest this because Tolkien seems to have been keen on his
>villains either having no names, or losing them: Melkor forfeited his
>original name, and "Morgoth" is just a description (Black Foe)
Melkor refers to himself as Melkor several times after Feanor names
him (in his conversation with Hurin, for instance.)
-Chris
Jonathan Ellis
Chris Kern wrote in message <384d324...@enews.newsguy.com>...
corruption of Ar-Pharazon. To all others, as the Valaquenta explains,
"that name he has forfeited: and the Noldor name him Morgoth, the Dark
Enemy", which name he has kept - as I point out, more a job description
than a name.
Jonathan.
David R. Henry
>>81. Pazuzu, Lord of Air
>>Origin unknown. (Pazuzu appears in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, so it
>>must have an origin other than this game.)
>
>AD&D, MM2. The name may be a traditional demon name.
It is. Pazuzu's most famous modern use, although few people know
enough of old demonology to recognize him, was as the demon that
opposed the legendary Exorcist, in the movie of the same name.
--
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * Lion Clan Nezumi * Rogue Fan Club * Fallen Writer
*** Now in scientifically perfected, eye-resting, full sepia Monocolor! ***
What was the question? --Kate Bush /// All you of Earth are IDIOTS! --P9fOS
Gwidon S. Naskrent
wrote:
>This guide is an attempt to account for the derivations of all the
>uniques that appear in Angband. I went through the list in the order
>they appear in the game, or put "origin unknown" if I was not sure.
>Anything in brackets is a side note, which may or may not be removed
>in the final version.
423 lines, including headers? That's tough!
>4. Smeagol (Hobbit, ch 5 - Riddles in the Dark LOTR I ch 2 - A Shadow
>of the Past, IV & VI throughout) - Also known as Gollum. Had the One
>Ring before Bilbo stole it from him. Aids in the destruction of the
>One Ring by biting Frodo's finger off and then falling into Orodruin.
This could be treated as a potential spoiler for those who haven't
read LoTR yet :-) Of course, the chances that you find such persons
among rgra community are rather slim.
>5. Bullroarer the Hobbit (Hobbit, ch 1 - An Unexpected Party) - The
>Old Took's great-granduncle. Killed Golfimbul in the Battle of Green
>Fields at Mount Gram.
He was also the tallest of hobbits until Merry and Pippin drank of the
Entish water.
>6. Mughash the Kobold Lord (LOTR VI, ch 1 - The Tower of Cirith Ungol)
>- Named Muzgash in the book, a random orc who gets killed.
Probably NOT a good source. Could it be that the original designers
made a kobold lord out of a random orc?
>7. Wormtongue, Agent of Saruman (LOTR III, VI) - Once an advisor to
>Theoden, he later became Saruman's agent. He throws the Palantir at
>Pippin and later kills Saruman.
His original name was Grima (thus he was a native of Rohan and not of
Dunland).
>9. Brodda, the Easterling (Silmarillion 198,215; UT 104-109) - An
>easterling who takes Morwen. Slain by Turin.
Easterling should be capitalised - they were a race of Men.
>12. Grishnakh the Hill Orc (LOTR III, ch 3 - The Uruk-hai) - A member
>of the Uruk-Hai that guards Pippin and Merry.
Wasn't he the captain of Mordor orcs that attacked the Fellowship?
>15. Ulfast, son of Ulfang (Silm, ch. 20 - Of the Fifth Battle)
>Ulfast was one of the treacherous men of the east that betrayed
>Maedhros in the Fifth Battle. He was slain by the sons of Bor.
Bór (o-acute), for accuracy.
>16. Nar, the Dwarf (Appendix A to LOTR) - Nar traveled into Khazad-dum
>with Thror. Azog slew Thror, and Nar fled to tell the rest of the
>dwarves about it.
I sincerely doubt that the Angbandish Nar has something to do with
king Thror's friend. See the description.
>19. Bolg, son of Azog (Hobbit, ch 17 - The Clouds Burst) Bolg was the
>leader of the goblins at the Battle of the Five Armies. His manner of
>death is unspecified.
Goblins = orcs (as per elsewhere). Tolkien didn't really want to puts
orcs into The Hobbit, you know.
>19. Ugluk the Uruk (LOTR III, ch 3 - The Uruk-Hai)
>Ugluk was the leader of the powerful Uruk-Hai orcs that captured Merry
>and Pippin. He was slain by Eomer.
They weren't quite the Uruk-hai of Mordor, and many speculated that
they were an inbred of men with orcs.
>21. Azog, King of the Uruk-Hai (Hobbit, ch 1 - An Unexpected Party)
>This leader of the goblins was slain by Dain, the leader of the
>Lakemen. Azog killed Thror, the father of Thrain. [The "uruk-hai"
>label seems to be an Angband invention. Azog does not appear in
>LOTR.]
Also, Azog resided in Moria, and it is unlikely that Sauron would send
his elite orcs to dwell that far.
>28. Mim, Betrayer of Turin (Silm, ch XX, UT, Narn)
>Mim was a petty-dwarf who dwelt in Amon Rudh. He sheltered Turin in
>his house, but later he stole the gold of Nargothrond and betrayed the
>lair to Orcs. Hurin slew him after his release from Angband.
He didn't stole the gold, but rather crept into Nargothrond after
Glaurung left it and 'sat on the gold' until Húrin found him.
>29. Draebor, the Imp
>Origin unknown. [I remember some story that this was a friend of the
>original author?]
This is an username from Warwick.
>31. Shelob, Spider of Darkness (LOTR IV, ch 9 - Shelob's Lair)
>A great spider, Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant. She poisoned
>Frodo, but Sam slew her with Sting.
He _did not_ slew her, only injured so badly that she retreated into
hiding for many years.
>32. Bert the Stone Troll
>33. Bill the Stone Troll
>34. Tom the Stone Troll (Hobbit, ch 2 - Roast Mutton)
>All of these trolls appeared in the same place, a cave near Hobbiton.
>They captured Bilbo, but the sun turned them to stone.
They also captured the band of dwarves that travelled with Bilbo.
Gandalf prevented them from being eaten by inciting a quarrel among
the trolls.
>38. The Queen Ant
>Origin unknown (and is probably not very interesting. The concept of
>a "queen ant" is stereotyped in many places.)
Well, there are real queen ants too :-)
Obliquely related to The Icky Queen (tm)
>40. Vargo, the Tyrant of Fire
>Origin unknown.
Also called Loge in some variants.
>41. Kavlax the Many-Headed
>Origin unknown.
A dragon with a sexual identity crisis, BTW ;-)
>42. Waldern, King of Water
>Origin unknown. (There is speculation that this was an Angband
>invention. The game assigns water immunity based on the symbol being
>an "E" and the first letter of the name being a "W". "Waldern" was
>probably chosen for this reason.)
The name sounds Germanic - could it be from Norse mythology?
>43. Medusa, the Gorgon (Greek Mythology)
>Medusa was a woman with snakes for hair that could turn people to
>stone merely by gazing at them. Perseus defeated her by using a
>mirrored shield to avoid her gaze and a sharp sword to behead her.
And the winged sandals of Hermes to fly near her.
>51. Ariel, Queen of Air
>Origin unknown. [Ariel appears in Shakespeare's _Tempest_, and is
>said to be a spirit of air. But Shakespeare's Ariel is male. It is
>still possible that this is the origin of the unique. Ariel also
>appears as a male spirit of air in Goethe's _Faust_. (Probably other
>places as well.)]
In fact, Ariel is one of the Hebrew archangels (though known in
folklore only, not sure if it appears in the Talmud).
>53. Scatha the Worm
>Appears to be an ICE invention, though I'm not sure about that.
Quite the contrary, he was the great worm that laid waste the dwarves
of Grey Mountains (Ered Mithrim) around 2500 TA.
>55. Itangast the Fire Drake
>[Is this another ICE invention?]
Who knows? Anyway he is not genuine.
>56. Glaurung, Father of the Dragons (Silm, throughout)
>Morgoth's first creation dragon, he was wingless and walked along the
'slithed' would be a better verb :-)
>59. Harowen the Black Hand
>Origin unknown.
Probably an ICE Numenorean name.
>62. The Phoenix (Mythology)
>A mythological bird that would immerse itself in fire and emerge
>reborn [every 1000 years?]
Or 500, or 5000, as tradition would have it.
>65. Fundin Bluecloak (LOTR II, ch 4 - A Journey in the Dark)
>Balin's father. Apparently this was the name of the first Angband
>winner.
See above on Nar.
>66. Uriel, Angel of Fire
>Origin unknown [though I believe this is a traditional angel, and he
>may appear in Faust.]
And the Book of Enoch (numerous mentions, eg. 9:1, 20:2, 33:4, 72:3
etc.)
>67. Azriel, Angel of Death
>Origin unknown [is this another tradition?]
Talmud, maybe.
>71. The Cat Lord
>Origin unknown. [In the Book of Lost Tales, in the Tale of Tinuviel
>and other places, there is a Tevildo, Prince of Cats, but this is not
>necessarily the source.]
I've replaced him with Tevildo anyway in GSNband.
>73. Tiamat, Celestial Dragon fo Evil (Mythology?)
>Perhaps a mythological figure. Appears in many games.
Tiamat was the primeval dragon that Marduk, the Babylonian god,
overthrew upon the dawn of history, and which feat Michael's battle
with Satan paralelled.
>74. Vecna, the Emperor Lich (AD&D)
>Appears in AD&D 2nd edition through an artifact called "The Hand of
>Vecna". Later sourcebooks added more information about this Lich. [I
>do not know if Vecna existed before AD&D. The origin of the Hand is
>probably not the 2nd edition DMG. If I had to guess, I would say that
>Unearthed Arcana had Vecna in it.]
Some say that it is the anagram of Jack Vance's name (Vance wrote
novels that served for the core of D&D).
>81. Pazuzu, Lord of Air
>Origin unknown. (Pazuzu appears in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, so it
>must have an origin other than this game.)
It is also a demonic name, BTW.
>85. Feagwath the Undead Sorcerer
>Origin unknown.
The name sounds Sindarin (Feagwath = Soulshadow), perhaps he's another
of ICE's outrageous creations?
>88. Gothmog, the High Captain of Balrogs (Silm, throughout)
>The greatest of Melkor's Balrogs. He slew Feanor, but later at the
>battle of Gondolin he slew and was slain by Ecthelion of the Fountain.
He also slew Fingon at Nirnaeth.
>90. Morgoth, Lord of Darkness (Silm, throughout)
>the First Age. His feet were cut off, and he was bound with Angainor
>and thrust outside of Arda, never to return again.
Where did you get the part about the feet?
Never to return again? I bet you don't think the Second Prophecy of
Mandos is canonical (it _should_ be!)
-----
Gwidon S. Naskrent (nask...@artemida.amu.edu.pl)
GSNband - http://artemida.amu.edu.pl/~naskrent/index.html
GEU/J d- s+:+ a-- C+++ ULB++>++++ P- E W++ N+++ o? K? w+ O-- M-- V--
PS++ PE- Y PGP->++ t-- 5-- X- R* tv- b+ DI-- D++
Gwidon S. Naskrent
<jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> I suggest this because Tolkien seems to have been keen on his
>villains either having no names, or losing them: Melkor forfeited his
>original name, and "Morgoth" is just a description (Black Foe) - Sauron
This description was just used by Elves and Men. Ulmo himself stil
calls Morgoth 'Melkor' when talking to Tuor in Vinyamar ('in the fires
of Melkor it shall not endure...'), and of course the villain in
question does so as well ('I am Melkor, first and mightiest of all the
Valar...' he says to the captive Hurin).
>names, unless Khamul is one, and I suspect (as I just mentioned) that
>his name is similar to Morgoth's in being not his true name but merely a
>description.)
A tentative speculation, but by no means provable unless we get to
know more about BS.
Gwidon S. Naskrent
>>I am working now on a complement to this document about Angband's
>>artifacts.
>
>I think you'll find a lot were invented.
You're quite right, especially as regards blunt weapons and polearms.
For example, the trident of Ulmo - there is no mention of him using a
trident, although of course, by association with Poseidon, he was
given one.
>>80. Murazor, the Witch-King of Angmar (LOTR, throughout)
>>The chief of Ringwraiths. He was slain at Pellenor Fields by either
>>Eowyn or Merry (this is an eternal debate on rec.arts.books.tolkien).
>
>Don't see why. A stab in the back of the knee is hardly fatal.
>Eyowin finished him.
If you call that finishing...
Behind the whole controversy, of course, is the meaning of
Glorfindel's prophecy - 'not by the hand of MAN shall he fall...' What
was Glorfindel's meaning here, assuming he uttered the words in the
language commonly used at that time by the Elves, ie. Sindarin?
Jeff Greene
Gwidon S. Naskrent wrote in message <384d39ab...@news.tpnet.pl>...
:On Tue, 07 Dec 1999 01:21:33 GMT, ke...@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern)
:wrote:
:
:>41. Kavlax the Many-Headed
:>Origin unknown.
:
:A dragon with a sexual identity crisis, BTW ;-)
:
He is NOT having a crisis! He made a perfectly legitimate and morally
acceptable lifestyle choi....{JOKING! Lets not start that again}
Best to leave his origin unknown, given his lifestyle preferences, it is
probably best not discovered how he got the nickname "The Many-Headed"
anyway. :)
-Jeff
'An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a
cabbage,
concludes that it will also make better soup. H. L. Menken
Chris Kern
S. Naskrent) posted the following:
>423 lines, including headers? That's tough!
Tough to write? Yeah, but I did it over fall break a while back.
Thanks for all the input, though!
>>4. Smeagol (Hobbit, ch 5 - Riddles in the Dark LOTR I ch 2 - A Shadow
>>of the Past, IV & VI throughout) - Also known as Gollum. Had the One
>>Ring before Bilbo stole it from him. Aids in the destruction of the
>>One Ring by biting Frodo's finger off and then falling into Orodruin.
>
>This could be treated as a potential spoiler for those who haven't
>read LoTR yet :-)
Eh. There are more spoilers in here too.
>>40. Vargo, the Tyrant of Fire
>>Origin unknown.
>
>Also called Loge in some variants.
Well, Loge has Wagnerian origins.
>>53. Scatha the Worm
>>Appears to be an ICE invention, though I'm not sure about that.
>
>Quite the contrary, he was the great worm that laid waste the dwarves
>of Grey Mountains (Ered Mithrim) around 2500 TA.
Is there a source? Appendix, perhaps?
>>66. Uriel, Angel of Fire
>>Origin unknown [though I believe this is a traditional angel, and he
>>may appear in Faust.]
>
>And the Book of Enoch (numerous mentions, eg. 9:1, 20:2, 33:4, 72:3
My Bible doesn't have a book of Enoch. What did you mean?
>>90. Morgoth, Lord of Darkness (Silm, throughout)
>>the First Age. His feet were cut off, and he was bound with Angainor
>>and thrust outside of Arda, never to return again.
>
>Where did you get the part about the feet?
It's in the Silmarillion..."his feet were hewn from under him..."
>Never to return again? I bet you don't think the Second Prophecy of
>Mandos is canonical (it _should_ be!)
According to CT it is not; Tolkien had expunged this element in the
Valaquenta, which is later than the latest work on the last
Silmarillion chapter.
I took some information about Morgoth from Morgoth's Ring, and perhaps
we should obey Tolkien's furthest thinking on the Nirnaeth by getting
rid of the sons of Ulfang?
-Chris
Akhronath
> Bolg was the leader of the goblins at the Battle of the
> Five Armies. His manner of death is unspecified.
Sure it is. "[Beorn] scattered the bodyguard, and pulled
down Bolg himself and crushed him." - The Hobbit, Ch 18.
> 53. Scatha the Worm
> Appears to be an ICE invention, though I'm not sure about that.
Tolkien, actually. LotR appendices.
__________
Akhronath
http://members.aol.com/zzhou22876/
Gwidon S. Naskrent
<jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> But nobody else uses that name - except Sauron, during his
>corruption of Ar-Pharazon. To all others, as the Valaquenta explains,
>"that name he has forfeited: and the Noldor name him Morgoth, the Dark
>Enemy", which name he has kept - as I point out, more a job description
>than a name.
If only the bad guys say 'Melkor', why does Ulmo use that name
speaking to Tuor? :-/
Martin Hewitt
>>29. Draebor, the Imp
>>Origin unknown. [I remember some story that this was a
friend of the
>>original author?]
>
>This is an username from Warwick.
Actually this was an anagram of the username said name being
rebroad I seem to recall . I believe the person's name was
Richard Broadly but it was all a long time ago and a lot of
water has passed under the bridge since then, maybe Geoff
(Hill) can correct me .
Though now I think about it rebroad = R E Broadly possibly.
Anyway basically he was an annoying git and so got included
as a pain in the ass Imp
Martin
The difference between journalism and literature, is that
journalism is unreadable and literature is not read. --
Oscar Wilde
Martin Hewitt
>>29. Draebor, the Imp
>>Origin unknown. [I remember some story that this was a
friend of the
>>original author?]
>
>This is an username from Warwick.
Haxson
>>>40. Vargo, the Tyrant of Fire
>>>Origin unknown.
>>
>>Also called Loge in some variants.
>
>Well, Loge has Wagnerian origins.
Loge is mentioned in Norse mythology as another name for Fire.
/Haxson
--
"Don't talk unless you can improve silence"
Jeff Butler
> >29. Draebor, the Imp
> >Origin unknown. [I remember some story that this was a friend of the
> >original author?]
>
> This is an username from Warwick.
IIRC, the actual username was 'Rebroad', and Draebor is only an anagram
of it. (Rebroad did nasty things like hog system resources and cause
crashes, so Draebor originally had an excellent drop so everyone would
track him down gleefully and kill him. Also, on the original system
Angband was played on, there was a hack which prevented anyone logged on
using Rebroad as a user name from ever having any artifacts generated in
their games).
Senji
>> 53. Scatha the Worm
>
>A Celtic goddess (a warrior aspect, and goddess of the underworld),
>although that might be coincidental.
Also potential reference to Julian May's Pliocene Saga.
Although I can't remember which gender that Scatha has (the angband
version is: F:UNIQUE | MALE | note).
And, frankly, he's underpowered if he is supposed to be the Worm from JM.
--
Jonathan D. Amery, http://www.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/~jda23/home.html #####
"In the name of scientific experimentation, the varying o__#######
bureaus, departments and faculties agreed that an effort \'#######
should be made to have him assassinated to verify that fact." D. Eddings
Richard Henry
nask...@artemida.amu.edu.pl (Gwidon S. Naskrent) forced innocent
electrons to deliver this message:
>On Tue, 07 Dec 1999 03:51:46 GMT, jl...@nowhere.fragment.com (Julian
>Lighton) wrote:
>>>80. Murazor, the Witch-King of Angmar (LOTR, throughout)
>>>The chief of Ringwraiths. He was slain at Pellenor Fields by either
>>>Eowyn or Merry (this is an eternal debate on rec.arts.books.tolkien).
>>
>>Don't see why. A stab in the back of the knee is hardly fatal.
>>Eyowin finished him.
>
>If you call that finishing...
>
>Behind the whole controversy, of course, is the meaning of
>Glorfindel's prophecy - 'not by the hand of MAN shall he fall...' What
>was Glorfindel's meaning here, assuming he uttered the words in the
>language commonly used at that time by the Elves, ie. Sindarin?
I believe the text credits *both* of them with the slaying. Tolkien
appeared to have considered it a joint effort.
--
R. Dan Henry (danh...@inreach.com)
http://home.inreach.com/danhenry/enter.html
Gwidon S. Naskrent
wrote:
>>>40. Vargo, the Tyrant of Fire
>>>Origin unknown.
>>
>>Also called Loge in some variants.
>
>Well, Loge has Wagnerian origins.
Actually, I think all the elemental lords of AD&D were named in the
various Monstrous Manuals. Anyone with a copy to confirm?
>>Quite the contrary, he was the great worm that laid waste the dwarves
>>of Grey Mountains (Ered Mithrim) around 2500 TA.
>
>Is there a source? Appendix, perhaps?
Appendix A, I guess (the timeline for Third Age).
>>And the Book of Enoch (numerous mentions, eg. 9:1, 20:2, 33:4, 72:3
>
>My Bible doesn't have a book of Enoch. What did you mean?
Small wonder, it's an apocryphal book that has been widely quoted
during the few first centuries AD, but didn't make it into the canon.
A complete text was recovered no earlier than in 1839.
>>Where did you get the part about the feet?
>
>It's in the Silmarillion..."his feet were hewn from under him..."
How could Morgoth have lost his feet if his physical form was merely a
manifestation, which surely had to be stripped down by the Valar so
that Morgoth could be cast into the Void?
>>Never to return again? I bet you don't think the Second Prophecy of
>>Mandos is canonical (it _should_ be!)
>
>According to CT it is not; Tolkien had expunged this element in the
>Valaquenta, which is later than the latest work on the last
>Silmarillion chapter.
CJRT himself admitted that he left the SPoM out by mistake (or not
wanting to give QS an ominous ending).
>I took some information about Morgoth from Morgoth's Ring, and perhaps
>we should obey Tolkien's furthest thinking on the Nirnaeth by getting
>rid of the sons of Ulfang?
I don't own a copy of HoME X, so I can't debate on it. Suffice it to
say that the SPoM persisted throughout all the development period,
since the early 30s.
Chris Kern
S. Naskrent) posted the following:
>>>And the Book of Enoch (numerous mentions, eg. 9:1, 20:2, 33:4, 72:3
>>
>>My Bible doesn't have a book of Enoch. What did you mean?
>
>Small wonder, it's an apocryphal book that has been widely quoted
>during the few first centuries AD, but didn't make it into the canon.
>A complete text was recovered no earlier than in 1839.
Is it contained in the Pseudographia? I think my father has a copy of
that, though I'm not sure.
>>>Where did you get the part about the feet?
>>
>>It's in the Silmarillion..."his feet were hewn from under him..."
>
>How could Morgoth have lost his feet if his physical form was merely a
>manifestation, which surely had to be stripped down by the Valar so
>that Morgoth could be cast into the Void?
There's no evidence that Morgoth's earthly form was stripped from him.
In fact, from all evidence it wasn't, since Tolkien says that Morgoth
remained in his Dark Lord form forever.
>>>Never to return again? I bet you don't think the Second Prophecy of
>>>Mandos is canonical (it _should_ be!)
>>
>>According to CT it is not; Tolkien had expunged this element in the
>>Valaquenta, which is later than the latest work on the last
>>Silmarillion chapter.
>
>CJRT himself admitted that he left the SPoM out by mistake (or not
>wanting to give QS an ominous ending).
Where does he say that?
>>I took some information about Morgoth from Morgoth's Ring, and perhaps
>>we should obey Tolkien's furthest thinking on the Nirnaeth by getting
>>rid of the sons of Ulfang?
>
>I don't own a copy of HoME X, so I can't debate on it. Suffice it to
>say that the SPoM persisted throughout all the development period,
>since the early 30s.
I realize that, but according to CT's comments in HoME X, in the
Valaquenta section, CT believes that his father finally rejected the
Second Prophecy of Mandos, becuase of these words (which were
originally in the Valaquenta, but CT moved to the end of the Silm):
"Here ends the VALAQUENTA. If it has passed from the high and
beatiful to the darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda
Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe
and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and **it is not
delcared in the dooms of Mandos**" (emphasis mine).
The Valaquenta is later than the latest revisions on the last chapters
of QS.
-Chris
Julian Lighton
Gwidon S. Naskrent <nask...@artemida.amu.edu.pl> wrote:
>On Tue, 07 Dec 1999 22:17:14 GMT, ke...@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern)
>wrote:
>
>>>>40. Vargo, the Tyrant of Fire
>>>>Origin unknown.
>>>
>>>Also called Loge in some variants.
>>
>
>Actually, I think all the elemental lords of AD&D were named in the
>various Monstrous Manuals. Anyone with a copy to confirm?
There were "Elemental Princes of Evil" in the Fiend Folio. They do
not share names with the Angband unique elementals.
--
Julian Lighton jl...@fragment.com
Death, destruction, and plastic forks
Ian Parkhouse
Martin Hewitt wrote in message <82mku0$bdp$1...@quince.news.easynet.net>...
><snip>
>
>>>29. Draebor, the Imp
>>>Origin unknown. [I remember some story that this was a
>friend of the
>>>original author?]
>>
>>This is an username from Warwick.
>
>
>rebroad I seem to recall . I believe the person's name was
>Richard Broadly but it was all a long time ago and a lot of
>water has passed under the bridge since then, maybe Geoff
>(Hill) can correct me .
>Though now I think about it rebroad = R E Broadly possibly.
>Anyway basically he was an annoying git and so got included
>as a pain in the ass Imp
I remembered something about this, so (after a quick search on deja), here
is a quote from a few weeks ago:
"and Draebor the imp is based on this really annoying bastard, who's login
username was Rebroad. And Draebor is simply an anagram which he never
spotted. The original version of Angband was programmed to never give
artifacts to anyone playing off the rebroad unix account as well. -Geoff
Hill"
--
Ian Parkhouse
Richard Henry
>On Tue, 07 Dec 1999 22:17:14 GMT, ke...@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern)
>wrote:
>
>>>>40. Vargo, the Tyrant of Fire
>>>>Origin unknown.
>>>
>>>Also called Loge in some variants.
>>
>>Well, Loge has Wagnerian origins.
>
>Actually, I think all the elemental lords of AD&D were named in the
>various Monstrous Manuals. Anyone with a copy to confirm?
Well, I got rid of my AD&D books, but I remember the Fiend Folio did
have named Elemental Lords. I'm 99.99% sure their names aren't the
same as in Angband.
>How could Morgoth have lost his feet if his physical form was merely a
>manifestation, which surely had to be stripped down by the Valar so
>that Morgoth could be cast into the Void?
Morgoth had permanently assumed his physical form and could no longer
become incorporeal (part of the price of putting so much of his power
into Arda). He must have been thrown into the Void in physical form.
Gwidon S. Naskrent
wrote:
>>Actually, I think all the elemental lords of AD&D were named in the
>>various Monstrous Manuals. Anyone with a copy to confirm?
>
>Well, I got rid of my AD&D books, but I remember the Fiend Folio did
>have named Elemental Lords. I'm 99.99% sure their names aren't the
>same as in Angband.
I know. I just anticipated you would cite the FF names here :-)
>Morgoth had permanently assumed his physical form and could no longer
>become incorporeal (part of the price of putting so much of his power
>into Arda). He must have been thrown into the Void in physical form.
We sure don't know what Void actually was (except that it was void),
so the issue is moot. Notice, however, that Sauron is said to be
reduced to spirit form after his downfall, so why not Morgoth?
Shimpei Yamashita
>
>>> 53. Scatha the Worm
>>
>>A Celtic goddess (a warrior aspect, and goddess of the underworld),
>>although that might be coincidental.
>
>LotR? Much of the wealth in Meduseld was from the hoard of Scatha, as I
>remember (e.g. the horn given to Merry by King Eomer).
Actually, I seem to remember that Eowyn even mentions Scatha in the
main text.
Ayup, here it is. (I'm so good sometimes I even impress myself.) _The
Return Of The King_, Ballantine paperback edition, p. 286:
'[The horn] is an heirloom of our house,' said Eowyn. 'It was made
by the Dwarves, and came from the hoard of Scatha the Worm. Eorl the
Young brought it from the North.'
The Appendix says that Scatha was killed by Fram, the chieftain of the
Eotheod (nee Rohirrim) some generations before Eorl's time. Eorl merely
brought the plunder to their new home in Rohan.
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.submm.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
perl -w -e '$_="not a perl hacker\n";$q=qq;(.);x9;$qq=qq;345123h896789,;;;$s=
pack(qq;H6;,q;6a7573;);$qq=qq;s,^$q,$s$qq;;$qq=~s;(\d);\$$1;g;eval$qq;print;'
Wilbur07
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>
>> He was slain by Fram and at least part of his hoard descended to Eorl, who
>> took it Calenardhon, and Eorl's successors took it to Meduseld.
Mark Constantino
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>I believe the text credits *both* of them with the slaying. Tolkien
>appeared to have considered it a joint effort.
Yes, that's the key debate. Some feel that Merry's thrust with the
barrow blade broke some spell of protection that enabled Eowyn to kill
the Witch-king.
-Chris
Richard Henry
(Chris Kern) forced innocent electrons to deliver this message:
Doesn't really matter does it? Without Merry's stroke, Eowyn would
never have had the chance to get that blow in. Even if it did nothing
but distract the Nazgul, it would still have been vital.
Mark Wotton
>On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 02:52:28 GMT, the notorious ke...@grinnell.edu
>(Chris Kern) forced innocent electrons to deliver this message:
>
>>On Thu, 09 Dec 1999 02:24:38 GMT, danh...@inreach.com (Richard Henry)
>>posted the following:
>>
>>>I believe the text credits *both* of them with the slaying. Tolkien
>>>appeared to have considered it a joint effort.
>>
>>Yes, that's the key debate. Some feel that Merry's thrust with the
>>barrow blade broke some spell of protection that enabled Eowyn to kill
>>the Witch-king.
>
>Doesn't really matter does it? Without Merry's stroke, Eowyn would
>never have had the chance to get that blow in. Even if it did nothing
>but distract the Nazgul, it would still have been vital.
>
Yeah, but who gets the experience points? :)
mrak
----------------
jupiter moon
Otto Martin
Dunno, since I haven't played Teamband, but I'd guess evenly to both.
(If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me :)
Otto Martin
--
"How about this? Amy in Bruno, 16.4.1999, Christopher Baldwin
Date her or die." (http://www.brunostrip.com/apr1699.gif)
Gwidon S. Naskrent
<mwo...@black.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
>>Doesn't really matter does it? Without Merry's stroke, Eowyn would
>>never have had the chance to get that blow in. Even if it did nothing
>>but distract the Nazgul, it would still have been vital.
>>
>
>Yeah, but who gets the experience points? :)
Hmm, I'd say Eowyn. Since pets can't kill uniques, that means Merry
was a friendly unique loitering about, right? So Eowyn was the
principal character that could finish the WK off.