[Un] My personal demons

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Andrew Doull

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Dec 19, 2006, 4:24:36 AM12/19/06
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Hi,

I notice recently on the ToME mailing list that ToME 3 will be getting rid of
slay demon and slay undead weapons, because they are moving to a faction system
and "slay undead is just the same as fire brand but worse, and slay demon almost
the same as cold brand but worse". This is because, in Angband and a number of
variants, all undead are vulnerable to fire and almost all demons are
vulnerable to cold. However, I'd prefer to make some undead immune to fire and
some more demons immune to cold or other elements. e.g. actually fix the
problem.

I know some variants have significantly improved the improve this situation,
notably Oangband and Sangband. In the interest of public safety, and because
I'd like to get this standardised across the variants, I thought I'd mention a
couple of significant changes to improve this situation in the latest version
of Unangband.

Manes will be immune to lightning, to prevent low level casters with Lightning
Spark plugging into the manes, and erinyes immune to cold because you just
can't make a female demon frigid.

I'm here all night.

Regards,

Andrew

--
Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--

DarkGod

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Dec 19, 2006, 5:08:01 AM12/19/06
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On 2006-12-19 10:24:36, Andrew Doull <andre...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I notice recently on the ToME mailing list that ToME 3 will be getting rid of
> slay demon and slay undead weapons, because they are moving to a faction system
> and "slay undead is just the same as fire brand but worse, and slay demon almost
> the same as cold brand but worse". This is because, in Angband and a number of

That idea has been abandonned :)

--
DarkGod comes from | Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards
the hells for YOU ! :) | because they are subtle and quick to anger.
-----------------------+----------------------------------------------
ToME power! http://t-o-m-e.net

Neil Stevens

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Dec 19, 2006, 9:38:25 AM12/19/06
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DarkGod wrote:
> On 2006-12-19 10:24:36, Andrew Doull <andre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I notice recently on the ToME mailing list that ToME 3 will be getting rid of
>> slay demon and slay undead weapons, because they are moving to a faction system
>> and "slay undead is just the same as fire brand but worse, and slay demon almost
>> the same as cold brand but worse". This is because, in Angband and a number of
>
> That idea has been abandonned :)

The post was a joke, I'm hoping. I'd already started to fire up a reply
on that, until I got to the end...

--
Neil Stevens - ne...@hakubi.us

If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not
looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

Andrew Doull

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Dec 19, 2006, 11:00:51 AM12/19/06
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On 2006-12-19 15:38:25, Neil Stevens <ne...@hakubi.us> wrote:

> DarkGod wrote:


> > On 2006-12-19 10:24:36, Andrew Doull wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I notice recently on the ToME mailing list that ToME 3 will be getting rid of
> >> slay demon and slay undead weapons, because they are moving to a faction system
> >> and "slay undead is just the same as fire brand but worse, and slay demon almost
> >> the same as cold brand but worse". This is because, in Angband and a number of
> >
> > That idea has been abandonned :)
>
> The post was a joke, I'm hoping. I'd already started to fire up a reply
> on that, until I got to the end...

Roguelikes have a long tradition of wordplay and humour, that I was attempting
to expand upon a little.

I am, in fact, going to be making the changes I mentioned, if that helps.

Seriously, though, I think the equation of undead = vulnerable to fire, and
demon = vulnerable to cold, is a poor one and something I'm working on changing
a little. I know a number of people who complain about inconsistent monsters
across variants (There was a big post complaining about floating eyes in
Unangband having ranged gazes) which is why this was a public plea.

That's why Unangband has monsters like:

The Zombified dwarf (Red 'z')
=== Num:1248 Lev:13 Rar:1 Spd:+0 Hp:14d8 Ac:24 Exp:18
It is a shambling dwarven corpse, with a burnt beard and skin peeling and red,
armed with rusted grenades. This evil undead dwarf is normally found on dungeon
level 13, and moves at normal speed. A kill of this creature is worth 78.00
points for a 3rd level character. It is challenging at its native depth. It may
throw a grenade at you; 1 time in 6. It can open doors and bash down doors. It
lights up the surroundings. It is cold blooded. It is not detected by
telepathy. It is immune to fire, cold and poison. It resists blindness. It
cannot be frightened, confused , charmed or slept. It takes a while to see
intruders, which it may notice from 200 feet. It can hit to attack with damage
2d6, hit to attack with damage 2d6. (UnAngband 0.6.0)

Regards,

Andrew

--
The Roflwtfzomgbbq Quylthulg summons L33t Paladins -more-
http://unangband.berlios.de

Neil Stevens

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Dec 19, 2006, 11:43:38 AM12/19/06
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Andrew Doull wrote:
> Seriously, though, I think the equation of undead = vulnerable to fire, and
> demon = vulnerable to cold, is a poor one and something I'm working on changing
> a little.

Well, if you're being serious, then what you said is a misrepresentation
of what went on in the ToME list, too.

Since firstly, I actually DID put slay demon on my proposed ego lists,
and in fact have since committed a demon destruction ego type to the
ToME 3 list.

Secondly, DG rejected my 'all undeads hate fire' proposal, so I'm
probably going to add a slay undead anyway!

Avenger

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Dec 19, 2006, 2:06:42 PM12/19/06
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I think the main problem with slay weapons is that they're underpowered. They
only affect one type of creature, they don't give any additional abilities (the
brands at least provide resistance to their element), and other ego types and
artifacts are all a good deal better for them. As a result of this, no one
actually uses them anyway, unless for a limited time when they find one as
their first excellent. There are a couple solutions to this, the most obvious,
and probably easiest, would be to just remove them from the game. However, they
could be made more desirable and useful by increasing their power. There are
many ways to do this, here are a few examples:

Give all slay weapons mandatory extra dice.
Give a massive accuracy bonus against the target monster type.
Improve the damage multiplier, instead of x2 or x3, maybe x5 or x6.
Give additional abilities, like Stat bonuses, sustains, and random abilities, or
specific abilities like See Invisible or Hold life on Slay Undead, Activation
for protection from Evil on Slay Evil, Resist fire and activate for oppose
fire on Slay Demon, Levitation( or Feather Falling) on Slay Dragon, etc.
Some combination of the above.

I haven't bothered to test any of these, since I have many other important
issues in Posband to deal with, so I don't know how easy any of these would be
to implement, or how they would affect game balance. They are just ideas;
hopefully they'll be helpful.


--
M(0.7.0 beta) C "Avenger" htW A R+ !Sp w:Anguirel
M/Ad W H- D- c+ f+ PV+ s d+ P++ M+
C- S+ I- So !B ac GHB SQ RQ V F:Mangband Ego items

Andrew Doull

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Dec 19, 2006, 2:40:57 PM12/19/06
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On 2006-12-19 17:43:38, Neil Stevens <ne...@hakubi.us> wrote:

> Andrew Doull wrote:
> > Seriously, though, I think the equation of undead = vulnerable to fire, and
> > demon = vulnerable to cold, is a poor one and something I'm working on changing
> > a little.
>
> Well, if you're being serious, then what you said is a misrepresentation
> of what went on in the ToME list, too.
>
> Since firstly, I actually DID put slay demon on my proposed ego lists,
> and in fact have since committed a demon destruction ego type to the
> ToME 3 list.
>
> Secondly, DG rejected my 'all undeads hate fire' proposal, so I'm
> probably going to add a slay undead anyway!

My apologies. I brought this up, not as a way of criticising ToME or to
represent in full the changes were being discussed, but because the same point
could be and has been made about Angband itself, and that it is a valid
problem.

Andrew Doull

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Dec 19, 2006, 2:43:23 PM12/19/06
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On 2006-12-19 20:06:42, Avenger <avenge...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think the main problem with slay weapons is that they're underpowered. They
> only affect one type of creature, they don't give any additional abilities (the
> brands at least provide resistance to their element), and other ego types and
> artifacts are all a good deal better for them. As a result of this, no one
> actually uses them anyway, unless for a limited time when they find one as
> their first excellent. There are a couple solutions to this, the most obvious,
> and probably easiest, would be to just remove them from the game. However, they
> could be made more desirable and useful by increasing their power. There are
> many ways to do this, here are a few examples:

[examples snipped]

The other great way, which I shamelessly stole - I believe from ToME, is giving
them the equivalent to telepathy, but for the race type that they slay.

Neil Stevens

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Dec 19, 2006, 3:10:44 PM12/19/06
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Avenger wrote:
> I think the main problem with slay weapons is that they're underpowered. They
> only affect one type of creature, they don't give any additional abilities (the
> brands at least provide resistance to their element), and other ego types and
> artifacts are all a good deal better for them. As a result of this, no one
> actually uses them anyway, unless for a limited time when they find one as
> their first excellent.

Actually that's the idea. We're using slay egos in ToME as early to
middle game weapons, used later only in specific swap situations. Their
utility perhaps only becomes more apparent in the context of other
in-gmae changes though. Consider:

We're getting rid of the higher-order ego items. Aman, Westernesse,
Gondolin, weapons like that with their nifty grab bags of power are
being phased out in favor of keeping egos simpler and inferor to artifacts.

Further, slays and brands are more potent than you think. Particular
with heavier weapons (are you thinking in terms of using a dagger
earlier on, for the extra blows?) they give a much bigger effective
bonus to damage.

So what, you say? My store-bought dagger +9,+9 is better? Nope.
Scrolls and services of weapon enchantment are gone, gone, gone in ToME 3.

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