strategy guide

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Eddie Grove

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Apr 5, 2008, 4:45:40 PM4/5/08
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I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while there
were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading. Someone needs to write a
guide emphasizing strategy over tactics. I guess I just put myself in charge.

I don't think there is a need to go over the basics. Hugo's spoiler pages are
excellent. Perhaps someone could work with him to produce a condensed version
if such a thing is possible.

All I have at the moment is a file with some rough notes in it. Any ideas on
what should be in such a thing?

Looking down, I see mention of earthquake. I never know how to use that.
Is it useful? What are the strategic implications?

I am sure there's a lot more that should be in here.

Requesting comments, suggestions, or humorous notes.


-----------

To Win: kill Sauron and Morgoth.
need enough speed they are unlikey to kill you with double move.
need lots of hp and lots of healing, amount of healing depends
on hp and offense. Basically, game is about reaching 18/200 CON
and getting speed+20.

If you step into LOS of gravity hound, you could die.
Every additional turn played lowers your chances of winning.

Learn wrong lessons before 2000'. Qualitative change in game.
Time spent before 2000' tends to reinforce bad habits.

Tedium and/or attention might be treated as resources.

Game is about multiplying bonuses and increasing stats.

Offense with avoidance is more important than defense.

Try to ignore monsters with no drops, but must kill
breeders, try to kill fast monsters rather than leave behind.

Free loot on the floor, try to keep as high as possible ratio of free loot vs
monsters killed, so no search mode and try to rest less for less monster regen.

Early game is all about selling. Do not test wands, want money
for each charge. Always id them. Only ones to keep are -lightbeam
and -trapdest and -stone2mud and -telOther. Otherwise, better to
sell for money for enchant scrolls for longbow.

Experience is unimportant. Comes automatically with survival.
Don't kill for exp unless you can do so quickly without using
consumables and not taking enough damage/mana that you would
consider resting. Exception if you will immediately gain a level.

It is better to spend an hour with the auto-roller gaining a stat point
than to spend two hours clearing an orc pit.

Learn the pattern of doors and where to search, often good
to stand on a door to search for next.

Crucial to build monster memory.
Do not fight a monster the first or second time you see one of that flavor.

Understand item creation to see that better to kill uniques deeper rather than
earlier.

Sometimes will want to rest for mana to cast id or spells for exp.
Should do that on the stairs right before descending if possible,
so as not to encounter any spawned monsters.

Corridors are much safer than rooms. Better to spend most time
in corridors. Also, know where to run while waiting for ?recall
to kick in.

Starting Chars:
Current point-based is too wimpy to use. Only auto-roller for beginners.

Warrior 4 blows at [2,9]
Human or Half-Elf or Half-Orc or Dunadan or High-Elf
18/40 & 18/10 , or just get 3 blows at 18/30 str for rBlind [Dwarf] or sStr+regen [Half-Troll]

Paladin just get 18/30 str for 3 blows, Dwarf or Half-Orc or Half-Troll or Dunadan or High-Elf

For 3 blows, need [0,8] or [1,7] or [2,5] or [3,3]
Ranger: 18/50 STR means Half-troll
Rogue: 18/30 STR and 18/10 Dex, needs racial +2STR -1DEX means Half-Orc
or 18/10 and 18/50 means High-Elf


Learn all possible means of escape.
?recall and ?phase and ?telSelf and ?telLevel and ?destruction and _destruction.
Also spells of same name. Importance of staves for blind and/or confused.
[What about _earthquake?]
Also _telSelf and -telOther and !speed [save for escapes, don't use for kills].
Also stairs and trapdoors, occasionally teleport runes.

Recognize unique escorts [or maybe a pit] and flee immediately.
Try to avoid burning consumables.

Play the slots. Buy out entire slots if feasible.

Offense over defense. Pick your fights.

Stone2mud to open LOS for ranged attacks, sometimes where a passwall
monster is about to move.


There shouldn't be any mention of required resistances for a depth, but it
would be good to list obsolete actions. No telSelf below 3000' e.g.
Flee a level containing monster X if you don't have resistance Y.

Eddie

Nick

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Apr 5, 2008, 6:50:35 PM4/5/08
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On Apr 6, 6:45 am, Eddie Grove <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while there
> were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading. Someone needs to write a
> guide emphasizing strategy over tactics. I guess I just put myself in charge.

There is a new user manual currently being worked on at
http://rephial.org/wiki/UserManual; it does seem to be mostly about
the mechanics, though (judging by a 10 second look at the section
titles), so there would certainly be room for some strategic bits. It
has been mainly worked on by JamesDoyle, who has posted a bunch of
stuff on the Vanilla forum about it.

> Requesting comments, suggestions, or humorous notes.

I suggest that I should read it before commenting.

Nick.

The Wanderer

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Apr 5, 2008, 11:15:19 PM4/5/08
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Eddie Grove wrote:

> I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and
> while there were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading.
> Someone needs to write a guide emphasizing strategy over tactics. I
> guess I just put myself in charge.
>
> I don't think there is a need to go over the basics. Hugo's spoiler
> pages are excellent. Perhaps someone could work with him to produce
> a condensed version if such a thing is possible.
>
> All I have at the moment is a file with some rough notes in it. Any
> ideas on what should be in such a thing?

The primary thing I have referred to the newbie guide for is as a
reminder of how deep it is safe to go without a particular resistance;
there's a small chart in there which lists about five depths and what
you "should" have before going past that. Other than that, once I'd
played my first half-dozen games I never found reason to refer to it,
and I have no idea what parts of it I may have found useful back when I
first started playing.

--
The Wanderer

My usual .sig is on vacation while I adjust to my new computer

pete m

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Apr 6, 2008, 3:32:24 AM4/6/08
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On Apr 5, 1:45 pm, Eddie Grove <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Experience is unimportant. Comes automatically with survival.
>Don't kill for exp unless you can do so quickly without using
>consumables and not taking enough damage/mana that you would
>consider resting. Exception if you will immediately gain a level.

In practice, I find this often means packs, if you really want to rack
up experience fast. For moderately aggressive diving:
- Wolves at cl ~6
- Light, Dark, Clear, Cold, Elec Hounds at cl ~12
- Young dragons at cl ~14-18 (They are EASY targets, so long as you
(a) have free action or (b) have memorized all paralyzers, and avoid
them assiduously. A cl 15 mage with Cold Bolt can kill vulnerable
ones easily, assuming appropriate resistance.)
- Vrocks, Hezrou, Barbazu at cl ~27 Occasionally Mumak if you are
desperate for EXP.
- Chaos Hounds at cl near 40-49. They don't have a lot of HP at that
level and they are worth ~1 !Experience for a pack. (Of course, you
need RChaos.)

Make sure you quit with a species when it no longer pays such big
immediate dividends.


Andy Gullans

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Apr 6, 2008, 5:17:11 AM4/6/08
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On Apr 5, 4:45 pm, Eddie Grove <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while there
> were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading. Someone needs to write a
> guide emphasizing strategy over tactics. I guess I just put myself in charge.
>
> I don't think there is a need to go over the basics. Hugo's spoiler pages are
> excellent. Perhaps someone could work with him to produce a condensed version
> if such a thing is possible.
>
> All I have at the moment is a file with some rough notes in it. Any ideas on
> what should be in such a thing?

I can add the following piece of advice:

Remember, kids; never, ever drink and dive.

Magnate

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Apr 7, 2008, 8:09:32 AM4/7/08
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"Nick" <nckmc...@yahoo.com.au> wrote

> On Apr 6, 6:45 am, Eddie Grove <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while
>> there
>> were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading. Someone needs to
>> write a
>> guide emphasizing strategy over tactics. I guess I just put myself in
>> charge.
>
> There is a new user manual currently being worked on at
> http://rephial.org/wiki/UserManual; it does seem to be mostly about
> the mechanics, though (judging by a 10 second look at the section
> titles), so there would certainly be room for some strategic bits. It
> has been mainly worked on by JamesDoyle, who has posted a bunch of
> stuff on the Vanilla forum about it.

I second this. James has done a lot of work creating something which should
ultimately replace TANG. Eddie's take on this would be very interesting
(though Eddie is really talking about a different document I think - James's
is more of an instruction manual than a strategy guide).

CC


WL

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Apr 7, 2008, 11:22:48 AM4/7/08
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In article <87myo8n...@hotmail.com>,

Eddie Grove <eddie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Crucial to build monster memory.
>Do not fight a monster the first or second time you see one of that flavor.

Can you clarify this idea a bit?

>Starting Chars:
>Current point-based is too wimpy to use. Only auto-roller for beginners.

Does this mean beginners should use the auto-roller to
get a character with better stats?

--
WL
real mail: wliao at sdf loSnPesAtarM org
(remove the uppercase letters...)

Eddie Grove

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Apr 7, 2008, 12:03:31 PM4/7/08
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m...@privacy.net (WL) writes:

> In article <87myo8n...@hotmail.com>,
> Eddie Grove <eddie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Crucial to build monster memory.
> >Do not fight a monster the first or second time you see one of that flavor.
>
> Can you clarify this idea a bit?

If you don't know whether a monster can kill you, try to avoid it.
It is generally a mistake to fight out-of-depth monsters, especially
if you do not know their abilities.

The first time you see Ugluk [picking a unique at random], you might be
unlucky and see him before his native depth. Hopefully, by the time you see
his third incarnation on a third separate level, he might not be out of depth.

The same holds true for your first lesser balrog in a game, or whomever.

> >Starting Chars:
> >Current point-based is too wimpy to use. Only auto-roller for beginners.
>
> Does this mean beginners should use the auto-roller to
> get a character with better stats?

Absolutely. You can start with 4 stats at one less than maximum [base 16]
with no difficulty at all. You can start with 3 stats a maximum [base 17],
but you may have to restart the game a couple of times to do that.

If you do not roll for the best possible starting stats, you are playing a
challenge game. Challenge games are fun for advanced players, but they are a
mistake for beginners.

The game is skewed. A character with Str of 18/20 is fully twice as strong as
a character with Str 18, when it comes to calculating blows. That makes
initial stats ridiculously important.

You need to be learning how to best multiply your damage bonuses, and if you
do not maximize your blows you are not practicing the right lessons.


Eddie

Hugo Kornelis

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Apr 8, 2008, 9:54:31 AM4/8/08
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Hi Eddie,

On 05 Apr 2008 14:45:40 -0600, Eddie Grove wrote:

>I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while there
>were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading.

What guide exactly are you talking about? I found a total of three
guides over there: tang.txt (newbie guide - May 12, 1999), guide.txt
(strategy guide - November 29, 1993), and guide2ed.txt (updated strategy
guide - May 17, 1997). These are all mirrored on my spoiler site.

>I don't think there is a need to go over the basics. Hugo's spoiler pages are
>excellent.

Thanks. (bows)

> Perhaps someone could work with him to produce a condensed version
>if such a thing is possible.

You may have noticed that I hardly ever post anymore. You may also have
noticed that I haven't updated the spoilers for 3.0.9. There is a reason
for that - I have to much too do and too little time, and Angband just
isn't high enough on the priority list.

So if "work with him" entails any time consuming contribution from my
side, I'm afraid it won't work. If, on the other hand, "work with him"
is synonym for "send him that finished guide ans ask him to add it to
his spoiler site", then I will of course gladly do that! I have long
been hoping that someone who is better at playing Angband than I am
(read: someone who is able to actually beat the game) would take the
time to write a new strategy guide.

>Looking down, I see mention of earthquake. I never know how to use that.
>Is it useful? What are the strategic implications?

Earthquake, like Morgoth's shattering attack, can work to your advantage
by destroying LOS from monsters to you, though the flip side is of
course that your LOS to the monsters is also gone. It's also a quick way
to get rid of many monsters if you're in a crowded area.

Best, Hugo

--
Angband spoilers - last updated for Angband 3.0.8.
Visit http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/index.htm
--

Andrew Sidwell

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Apr 8, 2008, 10:09:19 AM4/8/08
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Hugo Kornelis wrote:
> You may have noticed that I hardly ever post anymore. You may also have
> noticed that I haven't updated the spoilers for 3.0.9.

3.0.9 doesn't need an update, luckily, it's all UI changes/bugfixes. :)

--
Andrew Sidwell
http://rephial.org/

Eddie Grove

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Apr 8, 2008, 11:28:00 AM4/8/08
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Hugo Kornelis <Ang...@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> writes:

> Hi Eddie,
>
> On 05 Apr 2008 14:45:40 -0600, Eddie Grove wrote:
>
> >I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while there
> >were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading.
>
> What guide exactly are you talking about? I found a total of three
> guides over there: tang.txt (newbie guide - May 12, 1999), guide.txt
> (strategy guide - November 29, 1993), and guide2ed.txt (updated strategy
> guide - May 17, 1997). These are all mirrored on my spoiler site.

On the main page, click on "The Angband Newbie Guide". It's the 6th link
down in the frame. Going non-frames, perhaps the direct link is:

http://www.thangorodrim.net/TANG/index.html

Just the first quote that sticks out:
"Multiple blows become very important later in the dungeon."
Completely true, but they are very important from the start!


My main problem with the guide is that it is more "don't go down without X"
insted of "when faced with problem Y do Z".


I've been watching the [V] char dumps on oook, and I keep seeing chars that
are *clearly* strong enough to win dying before 4000'. If you go too slowly
because you are waiting for rNether [or whatever], that's just as deadly as
missing an important resistance.


> >I don't think there is a need to go over the basics. Hugo's spoiler pages are
> >excellent.
>
> Thanks. (bows)

And the crowd gives a standing ovation!


> > Perhaps someone could work with him to produce a condensed version
> >if such a thing is possible.
>
> You may have noticed that I hardly ever post anymore. You may also have
> noticed that I haven't updated the spoilers for 3.0.9. There is a reason
> for that - I have to much too do and too little time, and Angband just
> isn't high enough on the priority list.
>
> So if "work with him" entails any time consuming contribution from my
> side, I'm afraid it won't work. If, on the other hand, "work with him"
> is synonym for "send him that finished guide ans ask him to add it to
> his spoiler site", then I will of course gladly do that!

You spent a huge amount of time and it shows. I shouldn't have volunteered
you to do more, but any new guide on game mechanics will at least need
"Hugo's seal of approval" to be taken seriously.

Thanks again for all you've done.


Eddie

Hugo Kornelis

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Apr 8, 2008, 5:09:23 PM4/8/08
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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:09:19 +0100, Andrew Sidwell wrote:

>Hugo Kornelis wrote:
>> You may have noticed that I hardly ever post anymore. You may also have
>> noticed that I haven't updated the spoilers for 3.0.9.
>
>3.0.9 doesn't need an update, luckily, it's all UI changes/bugfixes. :)

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the heads up. I'll see if I can squeeze in some time to at
least mention that on my website :-)

Hugo Kornelis

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Apr 8, 2008, 5:18:27 PM4/8/08
to
On 08 Apr 2008 09:28:00 -0600, Eddie Grove wrote:

>Hugo Kornelis <Ang...@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> writes:
>
>> Hi Eddie,
>>
>> On 05 Apr 2008 14:45:40 -0600, Eddie Grove wrote:
>>
>> >I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while there
>> >were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading.
>>
>> What guide exactly are you talking about? I found a total of three
>> guides over there: tang.txt (newbie guide - May 12, 1999), guide.txt
>> (strategy guide - November 29, 1993), and guide2ed.txt (updated strategy
>> guide - May 17, 1997). These are all mirrored on my spoiler site.
>
>On the main page, click on "The Angband Newbie Guide". It's the 6th link
>down in the frame. Going non-frames, perhaps the direct link is:
>
>http://www.thangorodrim.net/TANG/index.html

Hi Eddie,

Okay, that is indeed the same content as in tang.txt. Only formatted for
html.

(snip)


>My main problem with the guide is that it is more "don't go down without X"
>insted of "when faced with problem Y do Z".

Well, that *is* useful information for newbies, IMO.

>I've been watching the [V] char dumps on oook, and I keep seeing chars that
>are *clearly* strong enough to win dying before 4000'. If you go too slowly
>because you are waiting for rNether [or whatever], that's just as deadly as
>missing an important resistance.

True, and that is indeed missing from tang.txt - the "don't stay up with
X" parts.

(snip)


>You spent a huge amount of time and it shows. I shouldn't have volunteered
>you to do more, but any new guide on game mechanics will at least need
>"Hugo's seal of approval" to be taken seriously.

I think you're giving me too much credit here. Much of the footwork for
the spoilers was already done when I started updating them (though I
admit that some have eventually evolved into a complete rewrite).

I have fair knowledge of some parts of the source and deep knowledge of
a few specific parts (though much of that knowledge is becoming outdated
fast, if I interpret the signals for changes in V3.1.0 correctly). But I
have also made embarrassiblg mistakes in the spoilers, and I have hardly
looked at large parts of the source.

But what's more important, the guide you propose would be about strategy
and not about game mechanics. With only a single save-scummed win in all
my playing time, I should be the LAST to put a sign of approval on such
a guide. That should be done by people such as Timo, Pete, you, and
probably a few others whose names have just slipped my mind.

Eddie Grove

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Apr 8, 2008, 5:08:43 PM4/8/08
to
Hugo Kornelis <Ang...@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> writes:

> But what's more important, the guide you propose would be about strategy
> and not about game mechanics. With only a single save-scummed win in all
> my playing time, I should be the LAST to put a sign of approval on such
> a guide. That should be done by people such as Timo, Pete, you, and
> probably a few others whose names have just slipped my mind.

You misunderstood me. I volunteered you to help rewrite your spoilers more
compactly. They are so complete they can be daunting. :)


Eddie

pete m

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Apr 10, 2008, 6:10:05 AM4/10/08
to
On Apr 8, 2:18 pm, Hugo Kornelis <Angb...@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om>
wrote:

> On 08 Apr 2008 09:28:00 -0600, Eddie Grove wrote:
>
>
>
> >Hugo Kornelis <Angb...@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> writes:
>
> >> Hi Eddie,
>
> >> On 05 Apr 2008 14:45:40 -0600, Eddie Grove wrote:
>
> >> >I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while there
> >> >were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading.
>
> >> What guide exactly are you talking about? I found a total of three
> >> guides over there: tang.txt (newbie guide - May 12, 1999), guide.txt
> >> (strategy guide - November 29, 1993), and guide2ed.txt (updated strategy
> >> guide - May 17, 1997). These are all mirrored on my spoiler site.
>
> >On the main page, click on "The Angband Newbie Guide". It's the 6th link
> >down in the frame. Going non-frames, perhaps the direct link is:
>
> >http://www.thangorodrim.net/TANG/index.html
>
> Hi Eddie,
>
> Okay, that is indeed the same content as in tang.txt. Only formatted for
> html.
>
> (snip)
>
> >My main problem with the guide is that it is more "don't go down without X"
> >insted of "when faced with problem Y do Z".
>
> Well, that *is* useful information for newbies, IMO.

Yes. But the biggest trouble newbies have (I had it, for a very long
time) is the tendency to think that "I need more practice with
fighting tactics before I try to dive faster." Or, "I'll be stronger
if I dive slowly, so my chance of death goes down."

These are both grave misconceptions, and the newbie's guide tends to
encourage them. "What to do" strategy is far more useful. There's no
clear concept of character power in the guide, and only a hint of it
in the class/race descriptions.

Andrew Sidwell

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Apr 28, 2008, 7:44:37 PM4/28/08
to
Eddie Grove wrote:
> I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while there
> were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading. Someone needs to write a
> guide emphasizing strategy over tactics. I guess I just put myself in charge.

Such a thing would be really very useful for making sure people get into
better habits earlier. Do you have any plans to write it in full,
though? If not, I might suggest signing up for an account at the
rephial.org wiki and putting what you have there. Then, if you feel
like updating it, or you have something to add from time to time, just
go back and edit it. In the meantime, you might find someone else is
rewriting it in more flowing prose. :)

(Note that your changes to point-based have made it into 3.1.0, such
that the autoroller is now a waste of time.)

Eddie Grove

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May 3, 2008, 9:39:32 PM5/3/08
to
Andrew Sidwell <takk...@gmail.com> writes:

> Eddie Grove wrote:
> > I've looked at the newbie guide on Thang... a couple of times, and while there
> > were no obvious mistakes, it is terribly misleading. Someone needs to write a
> > guide emphasizing strategy over tactics. I guess I just put myself in charge.
>
> Such a thing would be really very useful for making sure people get into
> better habits earlier. Do you have any plans to write it in full, though?

Some day. I was trying to do another "tales", and figured the notes would
guide the guide, but I cannot keep a char alive to the end diving at my
current speed and taking notes.

FWIW, taking notes is about equivalent to being halfway through my second
Guinness. Despite warnings to the contrary, I do drink and dive.
Usually I go slower when I drink, but that contradicts the "bold" part.

> If not, I might suggest signing up for an account at the rephial.org wiki and
> putting what you have there. Then, if you feel like updating it, or you have
> something to add from time to time, just go back and edit it. In the
> meantime, you might find someone else is rewriting it in more flowing prose. :)

I surely could use a halfway decent editor. I was just waiting for more
suggestions or more notes or more inspiration before I get started.


Eddie

Magnate

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May 6, 2008, 8:51:50 AM5/6/08
to
"Eddie Grove" <eddie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:87r6ci3...@hotmail.com...

Do it - use the rephial wiki. I'll happily do some editing for you.

CC


Hugo Kornelis

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May 6, 2008, 4:37:20 PM5/6/08
to

And announce it when done. I'll add a link to it from the spoiler site.

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