copyright violation threats
Zz
may have consequences with Angband as a whole. I know there have been
other discussions in the past regarding copyright infringement issues
with Tolkien/Angband.
I got this today from Alec Johnson, Anne McCaffrey's eldest son and
webmaster of her website (http://www.annemccaffrey.org/). This was
directed at the PernMangband website, but I'm sure PernAngband is just
around the corner.
I maintain the PernAngband & PernMangband web sites.
I would think they'd be more interested in going after the game itself
if they really cared about copyright infringement rather than the
website. In any case, if anyone knows anything regarding
licensing/copyright issues for Angband in general please contact me.
For example, has the copyright owners for the Tolkien works threatened
the Angband community?
I can't believe Anne McCaffrey would alienate such a loyal and
dedicated group of fans. We don't cause her any lost revenue - if
anything what DarkGod has done with PernAngband & PernMangband has
increased awareness and fandom in the McCaffrey works. I was even
going to post links to all of McCaffrey's books and recommendation
reading order with forum for comments, but oh well....
I haven't decided what to do, but I was going to write a letter
directly to Anne. Perhaps if we all did she would understand what the
whole Angband/open source community is all about? Think of all the
hours we've put into developing and/or playing this game, at risk to
our own family/social lives, and in my case I got carpel tunnel
syndrome from playing so many hours in the day (which is why I haven't
posted much to either web site recently).
Any comments appreciated.
Zz
-----Original Message-----
From: Alec Johnson [mailto:al...@iol.ie]
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 5:48 AM
To: z...@pernmangband.org
Subject: Copyright violation
Your website is promoting an online role playing game that explicitly
draws from the copyrighted intellectual property of Anne McCaffrey.
This is an illegal infringement of her copyright, moreover it is an
illegal use of rights currently licensed to Ubisoft. Make no mistake,
this is very serious indeed. I strongly urge you to reply to me at
your earliest convenience. If I do not hear from you shortly, I will
have no choice but to turn this information over to Ubisoft’s
legal department. They are a huge multi-national corporation with a
vast legal department. Unless you have similar resources at your
disposal, I recommend you get in touch with us straightaway.
I am Anne McCaffrey’s official representative in this matter.
If you wish to verify my credentials, please go to the front page of
her official website where you will find a link (lower right hand
corner) which I think will satisfy you regarding my legitimacy.
All the best,
Alec Johnson,
Webmaster, The Worlds of Anne McCaffrey
When replying to this email address, please be
sure and include all previous correspondence.
I get an enormous amount of email on a daily
basis and this will assist me in helping you.
Eytan Zweig
"Zz" <t...@dottom.com> wrote in message
news:c757212a.0202...@posting.google.com...
I wish you the best, but I don't think it will do you any good - there is a
single reason for this letter, which is named within it - Ubisoft. They have
the rights to make computer games based on the Pern books, and they are out
to eliminate all competition, even non-actual one such as PernMangband
offers. It doesn't matter what Anne McCaffery thinks about it, she owns the
rights to the books, but has already licensed out the games, so its not in
her hands.
Whether or not McCaffery and her household were previously aware of
Pern(M)angband or not, it didn't matter to them - but now that an official
game from Ubisoft is going to be released, they have to stop it. This letter
is them playing "good cop" to Ubisoft's "bad cop", but the truth is, the
result is predetermined.
As for the Tolkein license, it hasn't become relevant yet, but depending on
who has/will get the license to the inevitable movie spin-off games, the
entire Angband community might face similar problems. If we will, each
maintainer will have to decide what to do - I hereby announce that at the
very first request from a copyright holder (be it the Tolkein estate, or any
other source materials I used), I will immediatly comply and remove or
rename all the relevant materials from EyAngband (including probably
changing the name of the variant if the Tolkein estate requires me to).
Of course, this isn't to say that you shouldn't try to protest, it just
means that you need to decide what to do if the likely thing happens and the
protest is rejected, and then do it before legal action is taken against
you.
Eytan
Chris Kern
following:
>I can't believe Anne McCaffrey would alienate such a loyal and
>dedicated group of fans. We don't cause her any lost revenue - if
>anything what DarkGod has done with PernAngband & PernMangband has
>increased awareness and fandom in the McCaffrey works. I was even
>going to post links to all of McCaffrey's books and recommendation
>reading order with forum for comments, but oh well....
You could try responding and explaining the situation -- that the game
is free, and will be nothing like any game Ubisoft is going to bring
out. But as Eytan said, it's the game company that is the problem,
not the McCaffrey estate.
This is troublesome, and it may be that DarkGod has to change the name
of the variant at some point.
-Chris
Jason Marshall
wait for the respective publishers to stop caring.
The Tolkienness or Pernness is what gives the games their appeal. I am
willing to say that if everything chanaged (i.e. hobbits change to midgets,
phial of galandrial changes to glowing bottle, and morgoth changes to Evilo
Man", I would not play the game. If something like that happened, there
would be no reason to play angband more than other roguelikes.
Yeah, yeah, I am sure that many will say that angband is angband without or
without its respective creative theme. I say it is. It would not be a
simple matter of name changing if it ever got down to it.
William Hull
news:XNae8.3626$%O1....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
However PernAngband Doesn't have much to do with Pern anyway, all you would
have to do is get rid of the Dragonrider race, a few monsters and uniques
(Dragonriders and Firelizards basically) and redesign a couple of quests
and it would have no Pern stuff left. In fact I'd advocate removing the
pern stuff and renaming it something else anyway, even without this Legal
stuff.
William Hull
David J. Grabiner
> I haven't decided what to do, but I was going to write a letter
> directly to Anne. Perhaps if we all did she would understand what the
> whole Angband/open source community is all about? Think of all the
> hours we've put into developing and/or playing this game, at risk to
> our own family/social lives, and in my case I got carpel tunnel
> syndrome from playing so many hours in the day (which is why I haven't
> posted much to either web site recently).
>
> Any comments appreciated.
You may want to talk to a lawyer, but this looks like barratry
(threatening a lawsuit for the purposes of intimidation, rather than
with a legal case). You might also contact the bar association in your
own state or country, since that is where you would have to be sued; if
you are in the US, an Irish court judgment isn't likely to mean much,
but if the company is going to sue you in a US court, it will have to
follow US procedure.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alec Johnson [mailto:al...@iol.ie]
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 5:48 AM
> To: z...@pernmangband.org
> Subject: Copyright violation
This is the first mark of intimidation; real legal threats don't get
sent by E-mail because E-mail has no proof of authenticity.
As a second issue, the sender is apparently not a lawyer.
> If I do not hear from you shortly, I will
> have no choice but to turn this information over to Ubisoft’s
> legal department. They are a huge multi-national corporation with a
> vast legal department. Unless you have similar resources at your
> disposal, I recommend you get in touch with us straightaway.
And this is what could be barratry. I have no idea whether they have a
legal case, but they are threatening to bankrupt you whether or not they
have a case.
--
David Grabiner, grab...@alumni.princeton.edu
http://math.la.asu.edu/~grabiner
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Torus Coffee and Donuts, Klein Glassworks, Projective Airlines, etc.
Jason Marshall
copywright laws ever since you started. Just because somebody is going to
make tolkien/pern games now doesn't mean that it was legit to make them
before the liscenses were sold. That is like saying that "they didn't say
anybody about this so it must be ok". Why would you suddenly become all law
conscious and law abiding?
I can see the point of "I am going to change because the eyes of legal
people who could impose copywright infringement suits are directly upon me".
Still, this is like only wearing your seatbelt when you see a policeman. It
defeats the purpose.
David J. Grabiner
> I would like to point out that technically you have been infringing on
> copywright laws ever since you started. Just because somebody is going to
> make tolkien/pern games now doesn't mean that it was legit to make them
> before the liscenses were sold. That is like saying that "they didn't say
> anybody about this so it must be ok". Why would you suddenly become all law
> conscious and law abiding?
This isn't clear. Neither copyright nor trademark law forbids all use
of the protected item. Copyrighted material can be used without
permission of the copyright owner if it is "fair use", a complicated
legal issue which depends on such factors as the amount used, whether it
is for profit or not, and the effect that the use has on the market.
Borrowing the name and general abilities of a character such as Morgoth
in a non-profit game which does not detract from the market for The
Silmarillion might well be ruled fair use in a court. The name
"Angband" was not trademarked for use in a game at the time the game
Angband was created. (Trademarks are usually restricted to the general
area in which they are used.)
> I can see the point of "I am going to change because the eyes of legal
> people who could impose copywright infringement suits are directly upon me".
You could also see this the other way, "I believe that what I am doing
is legal, but I have nothing to gain by fighting a lawsuit."
You might also look at cases in which the written law and custom are
very different. It is illegal to drive over 55 MPH on the
Baltimore-Washington Parkway, but it is dangerous to drive slower than
the flow of traffic, which is usually 65-70 MPH. Nobody says that
law-abiding citizens shouldn't drive on the road, and it is understood
that the police will not ticket drivers who are going an illegal 70 MPH
when that is the normal speed of traffic on the road.
That's essentially what is going on here, in SF and fantasy. Fan
fiction may infringe trademarks, but it is tolerated, and in many cases
welcomed, by the trademark holders.
Alistair Templeton
they could go after you, or any of the variant maintainers.
It's free. It's basically fan-fiction (albeit interactive) that gets widely
distributed, and there is no attempt to make commercial profit off of it.
My impression is that the only thing they could go after would be the
download section of the web pages (the method of distribution, like with
Napster). If the distribution were person to person, I'm not aware of any
legal pull anyone would have to curb it.
It's like if we wanted to write porno stories using Anne McAffrey's
characters. As long as we weren't trying to sell them, I don't believe that
they could stop us. However, it would of course be wise to avoid any kind
of real legal conflict, because as the fellow said ubisoft is a big
corporation.
Best of luck, please do keep us posted on developments.
Eytan Zweig
> I would like to point out that technically you have been infringing on
> copywright laws ever since you started. Just because somebody is going to
> make tolkien/pern games now doesn't mean that it was legit to make them
> before the liscenses were sold. That is like saying that "they didn't say
> anybody about this so it must be ok". Why would you suddenly become all
law
> conscious and law abiding?
Because there's a difference between using someone's intellectual property
when he doesn't care about it and when he does. It's not a matter of
law-abiding, it's a matter of respect. The use of Tolkein/Pern's property in
Angband was always a homage - something used because people enjoyed
Tolkein/Pern's works and wanted to play within them. The moment someone.
Doing something against their explicit will, though, is not respectful -
it's downright disrespectful.
> I can see the point of "I am going to change because the eyes of legal
> people who could impose copywright infringement suits are directly upon
me".
> Still, this is like only wearing your seatbelt when you see a policeman.
It
> defeats the purpose.
What is the purpose? Is it "I will use Tolkein in my game because I like
Tolkein's works?" or is it "I will exploit the works of Tolkein to make my
game more interesting because it's not good enough on its own?" You seem to
be implying that it's the latter.
Eytan
Art Mruczek
>Any comments appreciated.
> -----Original Message-----
>From: Alec Johnson [mailto:al...@iol.ie]
>Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 5:48 AM
>To: z...@pernmangband.org
>Subject: Copyright violation
>
>Your website is promoting an online role playing game that explicitly
^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^
Although some very valid points have been brought up in this thread,
and I hate to belabor the obvious, the only *band currently targeted
for copyright infringement is an online, multiplayer version.
I agree that other *bands could easily be targeted, despite the
intention of homage to the various authors (Tolkien, Zelazny,
McAffrey, and Moorcock, to name a few). But IMHO, the fact that
PernMAngband is online and multiplayer may be the reason that it,
of all the possible variants, is specifically under question.
Unfortunately, we have yet to hear from DarkGod on the subject,
so it is possible that PernAngband itself has recieved a similar
letter. However, recent quotes from DarkGod suggest that the
vision of PernAngband has become much more Tolkein and much less
Pern. To wit:
On 05 Sep 2001 14:33:13 +0200, dar...@ifrance.com (DarkGod) wrote:
>Eytan Zweig a écrit :
>> At which point you should probably renamed PernAngband "Angband", as it is
>> far more Tolkeinian than any other variant (or Vanilla) at the moment.
>> Vanilla could be renamed "PernAngband", a name as relevant to its contents
>> as "Angband" is today :)
Lol yeah I thought of renaming it TolkienAngband, but changing name
would only serve to confuse people.
Andrew Doull
> t...@dottom.com (Zz) writes:
>
> > I haven't decided what to do, but I was going to write a letter
> > directly to Anne. Perhaps if we all did she would understand what the
> > whole Angband/open source community is all about? Think of all the
> > hours we've put into developing and/or playing this game, at risk to
> > our own family/social lives, and in my case I got carpel tunnel
> > syndrome from playing so many hours in the day (which is why I haven't
> > posted much to either web site recently).
> >
> > Any comments appreciated.
>
> You may want to talk to a lawyer, but this looks like barratry
> (threatening a lawsuit for the purposes of intimidation, rather than
> with a legal case). You might also contact the bar association in your
> own state or country, since that is where you would have to be sued; if
> you are in the US, an Irish court judgment isn't likely to mean much,
> but if the company is going to sue you in a US court, it will have to
> follow US procedure.
>
And it's illegal in Texas. Counter sue. Its the only way. ;)
Andrew
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and if you mistake the above for legal
advice you are sadly mistaken. I also live in a country which is
moving towards high litigiousness due to the number of people who was
LA Law in the eighties having graduated from university in the last 10
years.
Peter Seebach
Alistair Templeton <APLEB...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>It's free. It's basically fan-fiction (albeit interactive) that gets widely
>distributed, and there is no attempt to make commercial profit off of it.
Yes. And fan-fiction has never won a case that I know of, except in a very
weird case involving Marion Zimmer Bradley, where an "authorized" fanfic
resulted in MZB losing the right to create future stories in her own world.
>It's like if we wanted to write porno stories using Anne McAffrey's
>characters. As long as we weren't trying to sell them, I don't believe that
>they could stop us.
Copyright law seems to say they could; they have the right to prohibit
unauthorized creation or distribution of derivative works, and courts often
find that things of this sort are "derivative".
"Fair use" is most often applied to scholarly work, although parody has also
been found to qualify in some cases.
YMMV, IANAL.
-s
--
Copyright 2002, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
$ chmod a+x /bin/laden Please do not feed or harbor the terrorists.
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/
Arcum Dagsson
"William Hull" <Wulf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Jason Marshall" <res0...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:XNae8.3626$%O1....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
> > I say that if such a catastrophe did happen, take the games underground
> and
> > wait for the respective publishers to stop caring.
> >
> > The Tolkienness or Pernness is what gives the games their appeal. I am
> > willing to say that if everything changed (i.e. hobbits change to
> midgets,
> > phial of galandrial changes to glowing bottle, and morgoth changes to
> Evilo
> > Man", I would not play the game. If something like that happened, there
> > would be no reason to play angband more than other roguelikes.
> >
> > Yeah, yeah, I am sure that many will say that angband is angband without
> or
> > without its respective creative theme. I say it is. It would not be a
> > simple matter of name changing if it ever got down to it.
> >
> >
>
> However PernAngband Doesn't have much to do with Pern anyway, all you would
> have to do is get rid of the Dragonrider race, a few monsters and uniques
> (Dragonriders and Firelizards basically) and redesign a couple of quests
> and it would have no Pern stuff left. In fact I'd advocate removing the
> pern stuff and renaming it something else anyway, even without this Legal
> stuff.
>
> William Hull
>
>
Well, lets see what we'd need to remove or rename:
From a_info:
7:The Ring of F'lar
26:The Dragonrider flying suit of Marda
27:The Dragonrider flying suit of T'ron
137:The Harp of Master Robinton
138:The Drum of Piemur
139:The Flute of Menolly
The bards could probably just be exchanged for bards from mythology (esp.
irish), or another series, (Bardic Voices/Choices, by Mercedes Lackey, for
example)...
From r_info:
789:T'ron, the Rebel Dragonrider
791:Mardra, rider of the Gold Loranth
820:Lessa, rider of the Gold Ramoth
824:F'lar, rider of the Bronze Mnementh
858:Sorka,rider of the Gold Faranth
940:Blue Firelizard
941:Green Firelizard
942:Brown Firelizard
943:Bronze Firelizard
944:Gold Firelizard
955:Green Dragonrider
956:Blue Dragonrider
957:Brown Dragonrider
958:Bronze Dragonrider
959:Gold Dragonrider
960:Thread
966:Dolphiner
From ow_info:
25:Mirrim(DragonRider)
46:N'rak the Summoner(DragonRider)
From k_info:
646:DragonRider Coat
From e_info:
99:(Weaponry) of the Dragonriders
From st_info:
22:Weyr
Plus misc quests, the Dragonrider race, and probably items I overlooked. It'd be
a bit of a pain, but it could be done. Probably new names could be found for
everything listed above without changing them much.
What could Pern possibly get renamed to, though? "The variant formerly known as
Pernangband", perhaps?
--
--Arcum
"There was a terrible ghastly silence.
There was a terrible ghastly noise.
There was a terrible ghastly silence. "
Alistair Templeton
don't have the right to govern us talking about characters that we read
about. There are only baby steps between talking, writing, and then making
a little video game about it. If these were for use for ourselves or our
friends, I don't believe anyone can interfere.
So is it then solely the distribution that copyright law covers?
Leon Marrick
Eytan Zweig wrote:
>
> "Jason Marshall" <res0...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:yWae8.3637$%O1....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
> > I would like to point out that technically you have been infringing on
> > copywright laws ever since you started. Just because somebody is going to
> > make tolkien/pern games now doesn't mean that it was legit to make them
> > before the liscenses were sold. That is like saying that "they didn't say
> > anybody about this so it must be ok". Why would you suddenly become all
> law
> > conscious and law abiding?
>
> Because there's a difference between using someone's intellectual property
> when he doesn't care about it and when he does. It's not a matter of
> law-abiding, it's a matter of respect. The use of Tolkein/Pern's property in
> Angband was always a homage - something used because people enjoyed
> Tolkein/Pern's works and wanted to play within them. The moment someone.
> Doing something against their explicit will, though, is not respectful -
> it's downright disrespectful.
And, if at any time J.R.R. Tolkien should rise from the dead and
make his will known, I will obey him. Until then, I shall believe
that we are part of the process of making him the greatest modern myth-
maker of the English-speaking world, a goal that Tolkien himself delib-
erately set out to accomplish.
About Anne McCaffrey I have nothing to say. Being alive, she can
inform us herself.
Teber
Alistair Templeton wrote:
there ARE limits to free speech. in the usa there is even a society especially
targeted at protecting the bill of rights.
meanwhile, lots of commercial games have been released with tolkienian and
other novel based elements in it. that would RPG's be without orcs? and i'm
not quite sure those LOTR monsters appear with permission of those who hold
the copyrights of tolkien's work.
and yes, i too am very interted in future developments of this matter.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the answer to the all-encompassing question on life, the universe and
everything: close window$ and restart
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D. Jacob Wildstrom
Alistair Templeton <APLEB...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>they could go after you, or any of the variant maintainers.
You're clearly not a copyright attorney, because this is, in fact, an
actionable offense.
Whether or not this makes sense is somewhat a matter of opinion.
>It's free.
Which makes no difference.
>It's basically fan-fiction (albeit interactive) that gets widely
>distributed, and there is no attempt to make commercial profit off of it.
There's a fair amount of precedent for prosecution of
fan-fiction. Anne McCaffrey's estate has been traditionally one of the
more assiduous ones. Other authors and publishers may choose to ignore
fanfiction. Since some unpleasantness surrounding Marion Zimmer
Bradley's attempts to do so, very few authors have explicitly condoned
fanfic.
>If the distribution were person to person, I'm not aware of any
>legal pull anyone would have to curb it.
Well, while they may not have the wherewithal to locate such
distribution, it remains, in the eyes of the law, identical.
>It's like if we wanted to write porno stories using Anne McAffrey's
>characters. As long as we weren't trying to sell them, I don't believe that
>they could stop us.
They could, would, and have in the past (OK, I'm not sure about porn,
but yes, fanfic).
Note -- this is not a comment on the ethics, morality, etc. of IP
laws, but merely factual statements about them. We just got over a
copyright thread in another newsgroup I hang out in, and I don't
really want to see another one.
+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Peter Seebach
Alistair Templeton <APLEB...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>Interesting. At what point does free speech kick in?
Fairly late, generally.
>People certainly
>don't have the right to govern us talking about characters that we read
>about.
Discussion of a copyrighted work is generally fair use. Creating new
derivative works generally isn't.
>There are only baby steps between talking, writing, and then making
>a little video game about it.
Not true at all. There's a *HUGE* difference between analysis (staying
"outside" the book) and writing new stories (going "inside" the book).
That's generally about where the line is drawn.
>If these were for use for ourselves or our
>friends, I don't believe anyone can interfere.
They're very unlikely to, but theoretically, fanfic is unauthorized, and
courts have, in some cases, found that the fanfic author has *no* rights
to the fanfic.
>So is it then solely the distribution that copyright law covers?
It's more complicated than that. Read the law.
Chris Kern
<Arcum_...@another.c.o.m> posted the following:
>940:Blue Firelizard
>941:Green Firelizard
>942:Brown Firelizard
>943:Bronze Firelizard
>944:Gold Firelizard
>955:Green Dragonrider
>956:Blue Dragonrider
>957:Brown Dragonrider
>958:Bronze Dragonrider
>959:Gold Dragonrider
I don't believe you can have rights to things like "Firelizard" and
"Dragonrider". If the other Pern stuff was removed, I don't see a
problem with these.
-Chris
J.K.Banks
> This message mostly relates to PernAngband and PernMangband, but it
> may have consequences with Angband as a whole. I know there have been
> other discussions in the past regarding copyright infringement issues
> with Tolkien/Angband.
> From: Alec Johnson [mailto:al...@iol.ie]
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 5:48 AM
> To: z...@pernmangband.org
> Subject: Copyright violation
>
> Your website is promoting an online role playing game that explicitly
> draws from the copyrighted intellectual property of Anne McCaffrey.
> This is an illegal infringement of her copyright, moreover it is an
> illegal use of rights currently licensed to Ubisoft. Make no mistake,
> this is very serious indeed. I strongly urge you to reply to me at
> your earliest convenience. If I do not hear from you shortly, I will
> have no choice but to turn this information over to Ubisoft’s
> legal department. They are a huge multi-national corporation with a
> vast legal department. Unless you have similar resources at your
> disposal, I recommend you get in touch with us straightaway.
>
> I am Anne McCaffrey’s official representative in this matter.
> If you wish to verify my credentials, please go to the front page of
> her official website where you will find a link (lower right hand
> corner) which I think will satisfy you regarding my legitimacy.
>
> All the best,
>
> Alec Johnson,
> Webmaster, The Worlds of Anne McCaffrey
Whew. I'm glad my variant is named NonTolkienianAngband.
Arcum Dagsson
wrote:
Well, they all had the PERANGBAND flag on them, and the descriptions read:
"The ancestors of the Dragons of the Dragonriders, these are funny flying
creatures with the powers of the dragons."
and
"A Dragonrider of Pern. Among the weaker breeds, but still dangerous."
(The dragonriders all have differing descriptions, but the first bit stays the
same)
So they will need to be changed, at least somewhat. I'm not sure if the names
would actually need changing, but it's probably best to be on the safe side. I'd
personally just modify the names a bit (Flamelizards?), and take out the Pern
references. For that matter, I wonder if changing "Dragonrider" to "Dragon
rider" would be sufficiant. ("Dragon friend", and "Windrider" also come to mind
as possibilities. For that matter, windrider would suggest riding eagles
instead, and could go straight back to Tolkein, with Gwaihir...)
Keith Willoughby
> I got this today from Alec Johnson, Anne McCaffrey's eldest son and
> webmaster of her website (http://www.annemccaffrey.org/). This was
> directed at the PernMangband website, but I'm sure PernAngband is just
> around the corner.
(I Am Not A Lawyer)
Firstly, I'd point out that the Pern content of PernAngband is
minimal. Secondly, I'd tell the guy that if he's intent on sending
threats of legal action then he should consider hiring someone
qualified in the law before he makes any further allegations. He's
already accused you of a copyright violation, which only someone with
knowledge in the field could reasonably judge.
(I Am Not A Lawyer)
It seems to me there are three separate issues here. Copyright,
Trademark, and passing off.
As far as copyright goes, if Pern uses extensive text from the books,
then that's probably bad. If it only uses some words and names, then
that may or may not be covered, and may or may not be excused by
fair-use, and depends on jurisdiction in any case.
I've just done a search for Pern and Trademark, and it seems that "The
Dragon Riders of Pern" is a registered trademark (or claimed to be) in
the US. You may be infringing on that trade-mark if it's possible that
the public would be confused by the name PernAngband, or the inclusion
of dragon riders. Or not. I Am Not A Lawyer.
As far as passing off goes, it may be that PernAngband is passing off
on the Pern name. Here are some of the regulations in the UK on
passing off - http://www.patent.gov.uk/tm/indetail/protect.htm - so in
the UK they would have to demonstrate substantial damages to their
goodwill. Which they may be able to do. Or not. I Am Not A Lawyer.
Personally, if I were DG, I'd change the name anyway. It's not a Pern
variant, really, and using the Pern name is asking for trouble.
--
Keith Willoughby
Our Father, who art in heaven, Harold be Thy name.
http://www.randomreviews.co.uk - it does what it says on the tin
Alistair Templeton
Yeah, most questions asked here could probably be answered with research,
but it's far more easy and interesting to have them explained.
> >There are only baby steps between talking, writing, and then making
> >a little video game about it.
>
> Not true at all. There's a *HUGE* difference between analysis (staying
> "outside" the book) and writing new stories (going "inside" the book).
> That's generally about where the line is drawn.
What about an essay you might write on the subject? Is that outside or
inside? I was assigned to write a screenplay of sorts for King Lear back in
college. By simply writing it was I violating copyrights? Could the
Shakespeare estate (or whomever has the rights) have sued me for the script?
> >If these were for use for ourselves or our
> >friends, I don't believe anyone can interfere.
>
> They're very unlikely to, but theoretically, fanfic is unauthorized, and
> courts have, in some cases, found that the fanfic author has *no* rights
> to the fanfic.
That seems pretty harsh, but I don't doubt it. I do all my writing in
academia which is a very open environment.
I don't, of course, demand answers. And I don't, as is obvious, know what
I'm talking about. But I think that elaboration from those who seem to know
what you're talking about is enlightening, I'm not trying to be a pest!
Zz
> ^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^
>
> Although some very valid points have been brought up in this thread,
> and I hate to belabor the obvious, the only *band currently targeted
> for copyright infringement is an online, multiplayer version.
>
> I agree that other *bands could easily be targeted, despite the
> intention of homage to the various authors (Tolkien, Zelazny,
> McAffrey, and Moorcock, to name a few). But IMHO, the fact that
> PernMAngband is online and multiplayer may be the reason that it,
> of all the possible variants, is specifically under question.
>
> Unfortunately, we have yet to hear from DarkGod on the subject,
> so it is possible that PernAngband itself has recieved a similar
> letter
When I was originally contacted about PernMangband, Alec Johnson,
representing AMC, did not know of PernAngband. He now does. The
issue affects both games, websites, source distribution, etc.
Specifically, Alec Johnson wrote to me:
| Using Anne McCaffrey's name, using characters, creatures,
| settings, etc., are protected.
This actually affects PernA more than PernM, but nevertheless the
issue affects both games and whatever DarkGod decides to do with one
he'll probably do to both (i.e. rename both).
I am waiting to hear from DarkGod and will get him involved directly.
Maybe he got permission from AMC originally, although if he did we
probably would've told me to put some copyright info on the websites
like the PernMUSH folks do (they got permission originally). Of
course, the fact that the game rights to Pern were sold to Ubisoft
changes the picture completely, regardless of how supportive AMC may
want to be of their fans.
On the legal issue, no matter how likely we are to win or lose in a
legal dispute over "fair use" of Pern characters, likeness, etc., all
it takes is a complaint filed with a US court and a request for
injunction to force me to take down the PernM & PernA websites. They
may even get an injunction for SourceForge to stop distribution and
Thangorodrim to remove links, etc. I'm not going to file a
counter-complaint, even if I feel we're in the right, it's not worth
my time, risk, or cost. Plus, if I do wait a complaint to be filed,
rather than complying/negotiating with Ubisoft's demands, then I would
become at risk for damages. Again, whether they would win anything is
questionable, but I don't have the time or inclination to deal with a
legal battle. I've been in a couple lengthy ones in my life and would
not go through it again.
I am hoping for a win-win situation where Pern[M]Angband can exist and
am getting DarkGod directly engaged with AMC. I just wanted to let
everyone know the current situation and was hoping someone knew of
copyright history for Pern or any other Angband variant.
I'll keep you all updated.
Zz
Zz
> > webmaster of her website (http://www.annemccaffrey.org/). This was
> > directed at the PernMangband website, but I'm sure PernAngband is just
> > around the corner.
>
> minimal.
Unfortunately, I don't think "minimal" makes a difference in the eyes
of copyright laws, but it might be enough to convince AMC/Ubisoft to
realize we are not a threat in any way to their game enterprise
> Secondly, I'd tell the guy that if he's intent on sending
> threats of legal action then he should consider hiring someone
> qualified in the law before he makes any further allegations. He's
> already accused you of a copyright violation, which only someone with
> knowledge in the field could reasonably judge.
Actually, from my correspondence with Alec Johnson, he definitely
seems like a competent individual who has dealed extensively with
copyright issues. In fact, AMC has been very agressive in dealing
with copyright issues. Here is just one example:
http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/pern/ (read the "important
message" at the bottom)
Add to that the sale of game rights to Ubisoft and the situation is
magnified.
> so in
> the UK they would have to demonstrate substantial damages to their
> goodwill. Which they may be able to do. Or not. I Am Not A Lawyer.
Damage can be demonstrated in many ways and judges can be very
unpredictable with regards to copyright damages. Suppose Ubisoft
claims that the existence of Pern[M]Angband takes away from potential
sales of their game, regardless of the reasons. Even if they take a
very conservative number, say just a few thousand dollars + lawyer
fees. Would you want to deal with a lawsuit regardless of potential
damages? It will be at least in the thousands, probably in the tens
of thousands with lawyer fees. Not worth my time...
> Personally, if I were DG, I'd change the name anyway. It's not a Pern
> variant, really, and using the Pern name is asking for trouble.
Yeah, this may be the eventual result, but let's wait and see what
happens. More info as significant events develop.
Zz
silt
news:3C797B11...@sprintmail.com...
> And, if at any time J.R.R. Tolkien should rise from the dead and
> make his will known, I will obey him. Until then, I shall believe
> that we are part of the process of making him the greatest modern myth-
> maker of the English-speaking world, a goal that Tolkien himself delib-
> erately set out to accomplish.
This, of course, has zip to do with copyright law in the US or world.
> About Anne McCaffrey I have nothing to say. Being alive, she can
> inform us herself.
The irony is that as others noted: the game has sent readers to buy the
books and Pernband has nothing to do with her work in any case.
A copyright holder *must* challenge all uses that possibly infringe, no
matter how trivial, or risk losing rights under (at least) US law if a later
serious challenge/violation occurs. The Wall Street Journal was forced--it
is ugly, but was truly forced no matter how much it was made out to be the
Bad Guy--to sue a small Maine US childrens' newspaper called the Small
Street Journal to change its name. Things are often murky--the current
Microsoft/Lindows suit is a prime example. Things become truly
ugly--indefensibly so, IMO--in, say, the case of Disney's Mickey Mouse
copyright. US copyright law has been directly, explicitly changed *more than
once* because of Disney's lobbying to avoid losing control of the "Mickey
Mouse" name & image. That is TOTAL FUCKING BULLSHIT.
The Tibetan Traveller
>
> > It's more complicated than that. Read the law.
>
> Yeah, most questions asked here could probably be answered with research,
> but it's far more easy and interesting to have them explained.
Unfortunately, any explaination a layman would understand is an
oversimplification. You would not only have to read the law; but, you
would have to read the court opinions to see how they interpet the law.
For example, "Fair Use" was initially created by the courts, not the
statutue. When they evaluate a "fair use" defense, they use a
multi-part test, e.g. is it a for-profit work, how much was copied,
etc. You would have to read the various rulings to see how the courts
balnce each part of the test.
> What about an essay you might write on the subject?
An essay analysing a work falls under "fair use" and is usually
acceptable. A story containing the same characters is considered a
derivative work and is usually not acceptable.
> Is that outside or
> inside? I was assigned to write a screenplay of sorts for King Lear back in
> college. By simply writing it was I violating copyrights? Could the
> Shakespeare estate (or whomever has the rights) have sued me for the script?
Shakespeare is no longer protected by copyright so any derivative works
based on Shakespeare are OK. For the approximately the first 150 years,
copyright protection only lasted for a maximum of 28 years. However,
Congress has extended copyright protection 11 times in the last 40 years
so that no work has lost copyright protection since the early 1900s.
Disney is the biggest lobbiest for these extensions. They want to
protect their monopoly on Mickey Mouse. (In fact, the last extension,
which the Supreme Court will hear, was referred to as the "Mickey Mouse
Law".
> That seems pretty harsh, but I don't doubt it. I do all my writing in
> academia which is a very open environment.
Ideas and facts can not be copyrighted, only expressions of those
ideas. That means that anyone can write a book explaining the Theory of
Relativity without worrying about copyright. However, they would be
barred from lifting verbatim text from another book.
--
And I feel like picking a fight, with everyone who thinks they are
right.
All the preacher men, the politicians, all the critics, ant the things
they write. -Rainmakers-
The Tibetan Traveller
>
> In article <Axbe8.5517$dj3.4...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>,
> Alistair Templeton <APLEB...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
> >It's free.
>
> Which makes no difference.
It may. Profit is one of the tests the courts use to determine "fair
use".
> >If the distribution were person to person, I'm not aware of any
> >legal pull anyone would have to curb it.
>
> Well, while they may not have the wherewithal to locate such
> distribution, it remains, in the eyes of the law, identical.
Not quite. The courts have ruled that making copies of songs for your
friends fall under "fair use". So writing fanfic and giving out copies
to your friends is legal. Posting it on the web or putting in a fanzine
would probably not be legal.
The Tibetan Traveller
> A copyright holder *must* challenge all uses that possibly infringe, no
> matter how trivial, or risk losing rights under (at least) US law if a later
> serious challenge/violation occurs.
This is true for trademarks; it is not necessarily true for patent or
copyright. Although the judge is allowing the defense to raise the
length of non-enforcement in the the BT hyperlink patent trial. (N.B.
This does not mean the defense will win with this defense. It only
mains they can bring it up during the trial.)
> The Wall Street Journal was forced--it
> is ugly, but was truly forced no matter how much it was made out to be the
> Bad Guy--to sue a small Maine US childrens' newspaper called the Small
> Street Journal to change its name.
This probably fell under trademark, rather then copyright law.
Trademarks tend to deal with the names. Copyright tends to deal with
the content.
Chris Kern
following:
>Damage can be demonstrated in many ways and judges can be very
>unpredictable with regards to copyright damages. Suppose Ubisoft
>claims that the existence of Pern[M]Angband takes away from potential
>sales of their game, regardless of the reasons. Even if they take a
>very conservative number, say just a few thousand dollars + lawyer
>fees. Would you want to deal with a lawsuit regardless of potential
>damages? It will be at least in the thousands, probably in the tens
>of thousands with lawyer fees. Not worth my time...
I wonder how many potential players will be turned away from Ubisoft's
new game because of this issue? Perhaps making that known to them
could be a bit of pressure in reverse.
-Chris (possibly not many)
Chris Robertson
> This message mostly relates to PernAngband and PernMangband, but it
> may have consequences with Angband as a whole. I know there have been
> other discussions in the past regarding copyright infringement issues
> with Tolkien/Angband.
>
> webmaster of her website (http://www.annemccaffrey.org/). This was
> directed at the PernMangband website, but I'm sure PernAngband is just
> around the corner.
>
>
> I would think they'd be more interested in going after the game itself
> if they really cared about copyright infringement rather than the
> website. In any case, if anyone knows anything regarding
> licensing/copyright issues for Angband in general please contact me.
> For example, has the copyright owners for the Tolkien works threatened
> the Angband community?
>
> I can't believe Anne McCaffrey would alienate such a loyal and
> dedicated group of fans. We don't cause her any lost revenue - if
> anything what DarkGod has done with PernAngband & PernMangband has
> increased awareness and fandom in the McCaffrey works. I was even
> going to post links to all of McCaffrey's books and recommendation
> reading order with forum for comments, but oh well....
>
> I haven't decided what to do, but I was going to write a letter
> directly to Anne. Perhaps if we all did she would understand what the
> whole Angband/open source community is all about? Think of all the
> hours we've put into developing and/or playing this game, at risk to
> our own family/social lives, and in my case I got carpel tunnel
> syndrome from playing so many hours in the day (which is why I haven't
> posted much to either web site recently).
>
> Any comments appreciated.
>
I think this might be the best course of action. It's clear from the
letter (below) that Alec is not acting officially on behalf of Ubisoft
and that Ubisoft doesn't even know about this yet. I'd begin by
trying an olive branch - emphasise that the game is free and the Pern
content is minimal. I'd probably contact Alec first as the website
claims he represents Anne's business interests.
If he continues to bluster, then you have several choices. You can
avoid the problem by removing Pern references from names and
descriptions, which could probably be done without a great deal of
trouble. As others have pointed out, the concepts of dragonriders and
miniature dragons can't really be copyrighted.
Alternatively, since (as someone pointed out) he seems to be trying to
intimidate you with legal threats rather than take any action, you
could try calling his bluff. Politely request that he send you
official details of any specific violations (via real mail, not
e-mail) including the game aspect concerned and the specific law that
it violates, and you'll be happy to respond to them on a case-by-case
basis. That might cause him to back down. On the other hand, it
might result in him turning it over to Ubisoft.
Another intriguing possibility would be to rename the variant, change
the Web domain and remove any Pern references from the Web site, but
leave the game itself unchanged. (Inform him that the game isn't
really about Pern and the name was just a legacy from early versions,
which is more or less true). Pern content in the actual game is
pretty deeply buried - he'd have to either go through the *_info files
or play the game a lot to find it. I very much doubt he'll bother
with this - a quick Web search reveals a large number of other
Pern-based games, most of them probably in violation of copyright, so
I'm guessing he has bigger fish to fry. This might actually be the
best solution.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alec Johnson [mailto:al...@iol.ie]
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 5:48 AM
> To: z...@pernmangband.org
> Subject: Copyright violation
>
> Your website is promoting an online role playing game that explicitly
> draws from the copyrighted intellectual property of Anne McCaffrey.
> This is an illegal infringement of her copyright, moreover it is an
> illegal use of rights currently licensed to Ubisoft. Make no mistake,
> this is very serious indeed. I strongly urge you to reply to me at
> your earliest convenience. If I do not hear from you shortly, I will
> have no choice but to turn this information over to Ubisoft’s
> legal department. They are a huge multi-national corporation with a
> vast legal department. Unless you have similar resources at your
> disposal, I recommend you get in touch with us straightaway.
>
> I am Anne McCaffrey’s official representative in this matter.
> If you wish to verify my credentials, please go to the front page of
> her official website where you will find a link (lower right hand
> corner) which I think will satisfy you regarding my legitimacy.
>
> All the best,
>
> Alec Johnson,
> Webmaster, The Worlds of Anne McCaffrey
>
> When replying to this email address, please be
> sure and include all previous correspondence.
> I get an enormous amount of email on a daily
> basis and this will assist me in helping you.
Brad Balsmeyer
to Anne McCaffrey's website at http://www.annemccaffrey.org/ Under the FAQ
section there are 2 important answers. They are:
1. May I set up an online Pern or Freedom series role playing game?
Regretfully, you may not. Both these series have agreements in place which
prevent us from granting these rights. The only online RPGs that are allowed
to operate are those that received permission before December 1996. We do,
however, encourage off-line sites. For more information about how to set up
an off-line site, go to the answer to FAQ #3 or click here.
and
3. What do I have to do to set up an offline role playing game or fan
fiction site?
We strongly recommend that you review some of the offline sites listed on
our Links page before proceeding to create your own. We do not grant
permission before you create your site. We need to review it online before
granting final permission. We regret that you run the risk of creating a
site that will not be approved and would have to be taken down shortly after
being put up, but so far no one who has co-operated with us has failed to
have their site approved. Assistant Webmasters John and Brina have been
charged by Alec Johnson and Anne McCaffrey to authorize and regulate all
online activity. Neither Alec Johnson nor Anne McCaffrey, nor the approval
team, get involved in the internal administration of any websites, so don't
ask us to mediate disputes. Alec will only deal with matters involving
copyright infringement or violation of the conditions outlined below.
Here is the procedure you should follow:
A. If you have read this far, then you are well on your way to completing
step one in the process, which is to read this FAQ.
B. Create your website, consistent with the restrictions outlined below.
C. If you are creating an offline Pern-related role playing game (RPG),
remember that you must avoid using Benden Weyr or Ruatha Hold. You cannot
role play any major Pern characters. Your dragon's colors cannot be
different than those specified in The Dragonriders of Pern® series. Finally,
you should observe the major tenets of Pern, i.e., be consistent with what
you know so well from all the novels you've read -- this should be the easy
part.
D. All role-playing must be done offline, that is, it cannot appear in print
on a website ever as it is tantamount to online fan fiction, which is not
allowed (see FAQ#2) Email archives should be set for either None or
moderators only when using Yahoo Groups. ** Topica.com and SmartGroups.com
cannot be used due to the fact of their limited settings, neither of which
meet our guidelines.** Majordomo email services (for those with their own
domain names) are allowed. News archives and OOC groups are allowed online,
provided that they do not entail the RP's in a story-like nature. For
instance news archives can be a short summation of recent happenings with
certain characters, but not a story. The history of your Weyr should also be
a short summation (two or three paragraphs) of the Weyr's past.
E. If you are creating an offline fan-fiction club, based on any series, you
may have an online website to co-ordinate that activity, but everything else
must occur offline. You are free to email or snail-mail fiction to club
members only -- nothing may ever appear online or in a publication, other
than a members-only fanzine.
F. No commercial activity of any kind may take place. You may not sell
anything. You may not do link-sales with companies like Amazon.com or
BarnesandNoble.com. This also includes charging people to pay for your
webhost (for those who create their own domain name) and its services. "Free
Will" contributions will be considered.
G. Include the following copyright information prominently on the first page
of your site that any visitor or member sees when entering it:
All references to worlds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey's fiction
are copyright© Anne McCaffrey 1967, 2001, all rights reserved, and used by
permission of the author.
H. While not required, Anne McCaffrey truly appreciates it when a link to
her official website appears prominently on your site. Remember, if you are
approved, we will list your site on our Links page(s).
We hope that this site will prove to be a useful common ground for all of
Anne McCaffrey's fandom. As a token of our appreciation we're offering these
logos to all authorized sites. Feel free to use them as a graphic link back
to this site. Downloading them should be easy - just right click (Windows)
or hold down the mouse button (Mac), choose "Save Picture As" from the
pop-up menu, and store it in a directory of your choice. If anyone has
difficulty downloading these icons, just let us know.
<images snipped>
I. Post your link in the Fan Website Approval Pending Forum on the Kitchen
Table bulletin board. Include the website address and the email list
service. Indicate in your post that you've read and understood the FAQ
(otherwise the hosts of the forum will tell you to do so) If there are
aspects of the FAQ you don't understand, feel free to email either Brina or
John directly. In all correspondence regarding your website approval
application, be sure to include the name of your site, the address of your
site and your real name (no handles please). Both Brina and John receive an
enormous amount of these requests and it helps speed the process for
everyone if your site is well identified in all correspondence.
J. Wait patiently for your approval to come through. Check either the Fan
Link Approval Pending forum or the email address that you registered with.
Brina and John get lots of requests and try to handle each one in a timely
fashion. However, if you are beginning to feel seriously neglected, email
either host and inquire after the status of your application. Occasionally,
though very rarely, we hope, an application or two might fall through the
cracks.
K. Finally, have fun! After all, that's what this is all about.
Hope this helps,
Brad
"Zz" <t...@dottom.com> wrote in message
news:c757212a.0202...@posting.google.com...
Leon Marrick
Brad Balsmeyer wrote:
>
> Since I haven't seen this appear in the tread, I thought I would direct you
> to Anne McCaffrey's website at http://www.annemccaffrey.org/ Under the FAQ
> section there are 2 important answers. They are:
(snip of rules and regulations for usage of Pern material available at
the URL listed, in the FAQ section)
This all sounds very clear and reasonable. If I understand correctly
(please correct me if I'm wrong), DarkGod needs to do the following:
Either:
1) remove the Pern elements in PernAngband/PernMangband and
change the name, so that both variants can continue to operate much as
they are now, or
2) close down PernMangband, and ask permission to use Pern in the
name and Pern elements inside PernAngband.
PernAngband already fulfills a lot of the other requirements.
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>
>PernAngband already fulfills a lot of the other requirements.
I'm not so sure. I believe that they are referring to
pencil-and-paper RPGs rather than CRPGs (or roguelikes), but I could
be wrong. Also, I'm not quite sure Pern is consistent with the books
as it specifies there :-)
-Chris
Ross Morgan-Linial
news:G_me8.26915$zJ3.2...@typhoon.maine.rr.com:
> A copyright holder *must* challenge all uses that possibly infringe,
> no matter how trivial, or risk losing rights under (at least) US law
> if a later serious challenge/violation occurs.
Not true; this only applies to trademarks. Copyrights don't need to be
defended to be enforcable. http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
makes a good read if you like arguing about copyrights.
--
# Ross Morgan-Linial rmor...@speakeasy.net
$_=shift;1 while s/\(\d+\)/$&/ee||s/(\d+)d(\d+)/
'+1+int(rand$2)'x$1/ee||s/\d+[-+]\d+/$&/ee;print
Mark Wotton
> This message mostly relates to PernAngband and PernMangband, but it
> may have consequences with Angband as a whole. I know there have been
> other discussions in the past regarding copyright infringement issues
> with Tolkien/Angband.
>
> I got this today from Alec Johnson, Anne McCaffrey's eldest son and
> webmaster of her website (http://www.annemccaffrey.org/). This was
> directed at the PernMangband website, but I'm sure PernAngband is just
> around the corner.
Something I just saw on slashdot (colour me linux-weenie):
http://www.chillingeffects.org/
is a site where you can post cease-and-desist letters for law students
to analyse and discuss. Seeing as every second post seems to include I Am
Not A Lawyer, perhaps some input from some actual lawyers could be
illuminating.
mrak
David Thornley
>
>
>Alistair Templeton wrote:
>
>> Interesting. At what point does free speech kick in? People certainly
>> don't have the right to govern us talking about characters that we read
>> about. There are only baby steps between talking, writing, and then making
>> a little video game about it. If these were for use for ourselves or our
>> friends, I don't believe anyone can interfere.
>>
in the US. This is, I think, an attempt to protect freedom of speech
and copyright at the same time. You can talk about characters, and if
you're talking about a book you can quote short passages. The courts
will probably protect you if you talk about Pern characters, but if
you start using Pern characters for your own creative work then you
are probably in violation.
While the steps may be very small, there has to be some sort of dividing
line between talking about a book (free speech) and distributing it
without permission (copyright infringment).
>> So is it then solely the distribution that copyright law covers?
>
>meanwhile, lots of commercial games have been released with tolkienian and
>other novel based elements in it. that would RPG's be without orcs? and i'm
>not quite sure those LOTR monsters appear with permission of those who hold
>the copyrights of tolkien's work.
>
OK, this is third-hand information (fourth-hand to you, I guess).
Anybody familiar with the original D&D? Three small paper volumes
in a box? That had such creatures as hobbits and ents and orcs.
Fairly early in the development, the Tolkien people found out about
it, and the hobbits became halflings and the ents became treants.
Apparently, "orc" could be justified based on ancient usage, Tolkien
having been very fond of reusing stuff he found in ancient literature.
So, you can probably get away with using anything that's in both
Tolkien and AD&D.
>and yes, i too am very interted in future developments of this matter.
>
It's fairly simple. Once Ubisoft takes notice (and they will),
Pern angband games are going to change names or die. They are
probably violations of trademark (I'd be surprised if "Pern"
wasn't considered a trademark) and Ubisoft has to be firm about
defending trademarks.
I don't think this is a moral issue, but that's the way the legalities
go. Even if Ubisoft wanted to ignore Pernangband, if they wanted to
use Pern as a trademark they'd have to stamp it out.
I don't think Cthangband is in quite the same status, but it does use
characters from copyrighted literature. It probably doesn't cause
any trademark problems (I really don't think anybody can trademark
"Cth"), and so the responsible parties could get away with ignoring
it.
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
Zz
> (please correct me if I'm wrong), DarkGod needs to do the following:
>
> Either:
>
> 1) remove the Pern elements in PernAngband/PernMangband and
> change the name, so that both variants can continue to operate much as
> they are now, or
>
> 2) close down PernMangband, and ask permission to use Pern in the
> name and Pern elements inside PernAngband.
>
> PernAngband already fulfills a lot of the other requirements.
Even though PernAngband is an offline game, I think we would still
have problems with the website and source distribution which
"promotes" the game. It looks to me that the offline rules were
written primarily for paper-based RPG games.
Having said that, I am currently talking with the AMC camp to see if
we can get permission to generally use some elements of Pern, such as
the generic use of the DragonRider race, or the FireLizard monster.
My gut is that we'll have to remove Uniques & Artifacts that refer
specifically to people/places/things in AMC novels and modify any
descriptions accordingly. (This should be simple - the uniques &
artifacts are easiest to change.)
Finally, we are going to change the name, because admittedly the game
has very little to do with Pern and is really a very Tolkien Angband
variant.
More info from me or DarkGod when things are finalized. Thanks
everyone for their input.
Zz
David Haworth
> back in college. By simply writing it was I violating copyrights?
had it been a screenplay for something recent then yes, however, the
copyright has long expired on shakespeare, and indeed, I'm not sure if there
was any significant copyright at the time (a situation I kind of envy)
> That seems pretty harsh, but I don't doubt it. I do all my writing in
> academia which is a very open environment.
actually, alot of the american universities (and I don't suppose the british
uni's are much different) have been very closed about intellectual property,
insisting that students and staff make patent applications where required
(and making sure it belongs to the university) and making it very difficult
for anyone to release their work into the public domain.
I'm very much an advocate of massively reducing the influence of copyright
(ten years seems more than enough to me) but not many people in any kind of
position of power seem to agree with me. perhaps I oght to write to my MP.
revolution brothers :)
(damn, thats sedition isn't it?)
dave
Peter Seebach
silt <garli...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>A copyright holder *must* challenge all uses that possibly infringe,
NO NO NO NO NO NO!
*******TRADEMARK******* holders must challenge.
Neo_1061
Matrix and the following appeared in rec.games.roguelike.angband:
>Your website is promoting an online role playing game that explicitly
>draws from the copyrighted intellectual property of Anne McCaffrey.
>This is an illegal infringement of her copyright, moreover it is an
>illegal use of rights currently licensed to Ubisoft. Make no mistake,
>this is very serious indeed. I strongly urge you to reply to me at
>your earliest convenience. If I do not hear from you shortly, I will
>have no choice but to turn this information over to Ubisoft’s
>legal department. They are a huge multi-national corporation with a
>vast legal department. Unless you have similar resources at your
>disposal, I recommend you get in touch with us straightaway.
The nerve of these bastards! Not only do they claim copyright
infringement when the game probably only uses short snippets -- words,
phrases, names -- from her "intellectual property", each of which must
surely come under "fair use", but they have the unrepentent gall to
send HTML email too!
No sig
Just me
Neo_1061
into the Matrix and the following appeared in
rec.games.roguelike.angband:
>In article <G_me8.26915$zJ3.2...@typhoon.maine.rr.com>,
>silt <garli...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>A copyright holder *must* challenge all uses that possibly infringe,
>
>NO NO NO NO NO NO!
>
>*******TRADEMARK******* holders must challenge.
IANAL, but IIRC a copyright holder has to challenge a specific
possible infringement within a certain time period, or *that
particular work* becomes implicitly authorized, while they still
continue to hold the copyright in general and can challenge other
potential infringements. How long has PernAngband been in existence,
DG?
No sig
Just me
Mark Cantrell
I'd send it to them before you do anything else. Chances are AMC is blowing
smoke up your yeek, hoping to scare and bully you into overreacting, as most
of these letters are.
You can probably expect more of this when the Tolken marchandise games start
flooding the market. Of course, they already HAVE been on the market (for
the SNES, for example), so...
Of course, 10 years ago this whole mess about IP and idea ownership wasn't
near as bad as it is today. A person riding a dragon, what a completely new
idea, no one ever came up with THAT one. Right.
#include <IANAL.h>;
In all honesty, if you just rename it Per(M)Angband, NrepAngband, or
McCaffreyAndband, or something other, it should be enough to make you fall
under their radar.
Heck, if you really wanna stir up trouble (your own version of the C&D
letter, I suppose), submit it to Slashdot. Chances are they'll post it and
you'll get more than your fair share of (admittedly useless) advice, but
more importantly it will let the geek community (which has been
traditionally supportive of homebrew games) know about AMC's action.
Oh, and if all else fails, before changing anything, just move the files
onto a overseas server. Having your files on a US server (a country that
let someone get a trademark on ":-(") is probably not the best of places to
defend yourself from attack. Personally, I'd suggest England or Japan --
Japan especially has much broader Fair Use laws (if the sheer number of
hentai parodies of mainstream mangas are any indication.)
</Rant>
"Mark Wotton" <mr...@hons.cs.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
news:slrna7lio...@hons.cs.usyd.edu.au...
Peter Seebach
Neo_1061 <inv...@erehwon.invalid> wrote:
>IANAL, but IIRC a copyright holder has to challenge a specific
>possible infringement within a certain time period, or *that
>particular work* becomes implicitly authorized, while they still
>continue to hold the copyright in general and can challenge other
>potential infringements. How long has PernAngband been in existence,
>DG?
Good point. I think it's something like 3 years from when they are told,
or five years in general, but you'd have to look it up. PernAngband and/or
PernMangband may have an out.
Peter Seebach
Neo_1061 <inv...@erehwon.invalid> wrote:
>The nerve of these bastards! Not only do they claim copyright
>infringement when the game probably only uses short snippets -- words,
>phrases, names -- from her "intellectual property", each of which must
>surely come under "fair use", but they have the unrepentent gall to
>send HTML email too!
Imagine, if you will, a scholarly journal which quotes a sentence of a
copyrighted work; certainly fair use.
And yet, if you quote *every* sentence, in sequence, the whole is not fair
use, even if the parts might be.
I wouldn't be surprised if a court found PernAngband to be a copyright
violation. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't, though...
silt
news:3C7A2177...@aufait.net...
> silt wrote:
>
> > A copyright holder *must* challenge all uses that possibly infringe, no
> > matter how trivial, or risk losing rights under (at least) US law if a
later
> > serious challenge/violation occurs.
>
> This is true for trademarks; it is not necessarily true for patent or
> copyright. Although the judge is allowing the defense to raise the
> length of non-enforcement in the the BT hyperlink patent trial. (N.B.
> This does not mean the defense will win with this defense. It only
> mains they can bring it up during the trial.)
>
> > The Wall Street Journal was forced--it
> > is ugly, but was truly forced no matter how much it was made out to be
the
> > Bad Guy--to sue a small Maine US childrens' newspaper called the Small
> > Street Journal to change its name.
>
> This probably fell under trademark, rather then copyright law.
> Trademarks tend to deal with the names. Copyright tends to deal with
> the content.
My appologies on both counts; Traveller's info looks correct to me--and I am
inexpert enough I should not have considered posting. (Though if that had
ever stopped me...<G>)
silt
news:d39dab94.02022...@posting.google.com...
> could try calling his bluff. Politely request that he send you
> official details of any specific violations (via real mail, not
> e-mail) including the game aspect concerned and the specific law that
I may be incorrect--and welcome correction if so--but a serious contact on
any legal issue will be by registered mail. I've no idea whether initial
email warnings have any standing in a court case; they probably do. I
recommend seeking basic legal advice immediately--not from this group. There
are many free or very low cost sources for this.
DarkGod
>
> In article <3c7b0b90....@news.primus.ca>,
> Neo_1061 <inv...@erehwon.invalid> wrote:
> >IANAL, but IIRC a copyright holder has to challenge a specific
> >possible infringement within a certain time period, or *that
> >particular work* becomes implicitly authorized, while they still
> >continue to hold the copyright in general and can challenge other
> >potential infringements. How long has PernAngband been in existence,
> >DG?
> Good point. I think it's something like 3 years from when they are told,
> or five years in general, but you'd have to look it up. PernAngband and/or
> PernMangband may have an out.
And I didnt recorded when I started to work on PernMangband :( but it
should
in the end of 2000
--
-----------------------+----------------------------------------------
DarkGod comes from | Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards
the hells for YOU ! :) | because they are subtle and quick to anger.
-----------------------+----------------------------------------------
Pe W Olorin YSo L:50 DL:696 A+++ R+++ Sp++ w:Mage Staff of Mana(240%)
Pe*/PM(Cr)(NH) D H- D c++ f- PV s- TT- d++ P++ M+ C- S++ I+++ So++ B/-
ac- GHB- SQ+ RQ V+++ F:Mage playing Mage-like(see Pernangband Sorcerors)
Skylar Thompson
> In article <3c7b0b90....@news.primus.ca>,
> Neo_1061 <inv...@erehwon.invalid> wrote:
>>IANAL, but IIRC a copyright holder has to challenge a specific
>>possible infringement within a certain time period, or *that
>>particular work* becomes implicitly authorized, while they still
>>continue to hold the copyright in general and can challenge other
>>potential infringements. How long has PernAngband been in existence,
>>DG?
>
> Good point. I think it's something like 3 years from when they are told,
> or five years in general, but you'd have to look it up. PernAngband and/or
> PernMangband may have an out.
But where's this going to be tried? If they go after DarkGod, then it's
probably going to happen in France. What are French laws on the matter?
--
-- Skylar Thompson (sky...@attglobal.net)
Chris Kern
<sky...@thangorodrim.attglobal.net> posted the following:
France is probably a Berne signatory, thus I would assume the laws are
similar there.
-Chris
Peter J King
While it's not impossible that the company involved would actually start
legal proceedings (and when you're talking about big business and lawyers,
the reins of morality and common sense are cut), the sender of the e-mail
pretty clearly doesn't know what he's doing. His bullying tone, which
might well land him in legal trouble himself, and the unprofessional
nature of his e-mail, suggest that he's trying to come across as something
he isn't. What he is, fairly obviously, is a bumptious prat. He can
safely be ignored. If Ubisoft were to become involved, they'd give
sufficient warning, and action could be taken than.
Peter J. King
Neo_1061
jacked into the Matrix and the following appeared in
rec.games.roguelike.angband:
>"Chris Robertson" <chrisfak...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
It might be a good case for OpenLaw. Do a web search. The world's
first "open source" law firm...
No sig
Just me
Neo_1061
<shil...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> jacked into the Matrix and the following
appeared in rec.games.roguelike.angband:
>
>While it's not impossible that the company involved would actually start
>legal proceedings (and when you're talking about big business and lawyers,
>the reins of morality and common sense are cut), the sender of the e-mail
>pretty clearly doesn't know what he's doing. His bullying tone, which
>might well land him in legal trouble himself, and the unprofessional
>nature of his e-mail...
Yeah, it contained HTML tags!
No sig
Just me
Art Mruczek
>
>While it's not impossible that the company involved would actually start
>legal proceedings (and when you're talking about big business and lawyers,
>the reins of morality and common sense are cut), the sender of the e-mail
>pretty clearly doesn't know what he's doing. His bullying tone, which
>might well land him in legal trouble himself, and the unprofessional
>nature of his e-mail, suggest that he's trying to come across as something
>he isn't. What he is, fairly obviously, is a bumptious prat.
He may be a bumptious prat, but he represents the interests of a
living author, and has requested that the Pern content be removed
from the variant. That he does so from within a gloved fist is
irrelevant. The homage given Anne McAffrey is unwelcome, so
retaining it in the variant is counter-productive.
>He can safely be ignored.
I disagree. As Gandalf warned Frodo when the magic ring was
proven to be the One, "...he may be seeking it now, if he has not
already found out where it lies. Indeed, Frodo, I fear to think
that the long unnoticed name of Baggins has become important."
*chuckle* Okay, so that's a bit more drama than necessary, but
rest assured that now that PernAngband has been noticed, the
interests involved will continue to pursue the issue until they
feel it is resolved.
>If Ubisoft were to become involved, they'd give
>sufficient warning, and action could be taken than.
I believe that Mr. Johnson has already implied that failure to
recognize his reasonably polite request will lead to this (the
fist within the glove).
In any event, this is rapidly becoming a moot point, as the
maintainer and devteam have already changed the name to ToME
(Troubles of Middle Earth), and registered a new website
http://www.t-o-m-e.net/ for information and distribution.
Presumably, a non-Pern version of Pern will be forthcoming
shortly.
Kieron Dunbar
> Shakespeare is no longer protected by copyright so any derivative works
> based on Shakespeare are OK. For the approximately the first 150 years,
Shakespeare was never protected by copyright in the first place as the author (as
opposed to the publisher) of a written work wasn't given any legal recognition
until 1710.
--
kwaheri, Kieron (reverse username to reply)
Teber
Chris Kern wrote:
>
> >
> >But where's this going to be tried? If they go after DarkGod, then it's
> >probably going to happen in France. What are French laws on the matter?
>
> France is probably a Berne signatory, thus I would assume the laws are
> similar there.
>
> -Chris
when talking about laws in other countries, it's never safe to make assumptions.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the answer to the all-encompassing question on life, the universe and everything:
close window$ and restart
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fearoffours
news:3C7C9E11...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk:
> Once upon a time, The Tibetan Traveller wrote thus:
>
>> Shakespeare is no longer protected by copyright so any derivative
>> works based on Shakespeare are OK. For the approximately the first
>> 150 years,
>
> Shakespeare was never protected by copyright in the first place as the
> author (as opposed to the publisher) of a written work wasn't given
> any legal recognition until 1710.
>
nobody likes a smart-ass Kieron :)
--
fearoffours
Martin Hatfield
DavidB0002
As for this whole copyright thing. If they really want us to stop making
Angband, then they can hear from 50 different lawyers, including mine,
probably, Ethan's,
Topi, if he wants to get involved, and everybody on this newsgroup, in fact,
let's all band together and file a lawsuit against them for Ex post
facto...What about that? And if they have the balls to complain, they should
take it to the Newsgroup as well....
This is David, and these are my two cents...
My sig follows
Hey, I like David, better than The Adversary, Detroyer of Kings, Angel of the
Bottomless Pit, Great Beast that is called Dragon, Prince of This World, Father
of Lies, Spawn of Satan, and Lord of Darkness.
Bob Newell
> However PernAngband Doesn't have much to do with Pern anyway, all you would
> have to do is get rid of the Dragonrider race, a few monsters and uniques
> (Dragonriders and Firelizards basically) and redesign a couple of quests
Or just make sure that "Pern" doesn't appear in a web search. These
people who threaten you so viciously are altogether too stupid to
actually find and play the game itself.
Chris Kern
the following:
>
>As for this whole copyright thing. If they really want us to stop making
>Angband, then they can hear from 50 different lawyers, including mine,
>probably, Ethan's,
>Topi, if he wants to get involved, and everybody on this newsgroup,
Most of the people on this newsgroup do not have the money or interest
in fighting this.
> in fact,
>let's all band together and file a lawsuit against them for Ex post
>facto...What about that?
Nonsense. Ex post facto means that the law was created after the
offense, which is not the case here.
-Chris
James Jarrett
> I would like to point out that technically you have been infringing on
> copywright laws ever since you started. Just because somebody is going to
> make tolkien/pern games now doesn't mean that it was legit to make them
> before the liscenses were sold. That is like saying that "they didn't say
> anybody about this so it must be ok". Why would you suddenly become all law
> conscious and law abiding?
>
> I can see the point of "I am going to change because the eyes of legal
> people who could impose copywright infringement suits are directly upon me".
> Still, this is like only wearing your seatbelt when you see a policeman. It
> defeats the purpose.
At the risk of sounding like some guy lacking in mental activity:
shuddup.
I like this game. It poses no threat to Ubisoft, or anyone else. If
anything, it adds to the interest in the whole Pern world, and so adds
to the consumer-base of everyone who has copyrights and such to that
world. Just leave the game, and do something with the website. If all
goes well, nobody will notice that the game even exists. :)
Nobody's doing anything wrong here. To try to outlaw Angband would be
like trying to outlaw McCaffrey fan sites. It just doesn't make sense.
James
silt
news:20020301173931...@mb-fl.aol.com...
> And when Ethan Gets mad, people Die!
>
>
> As for this whole copyright thing. If they really want us to stop making
> Angband, then they can hear from 50 different lawyers, including mine,
> probably, Ethan's,
> Topi, if he wants to get involved, and everybody on this newsgroup, in
fact,
> let's all band together and file a lawsuit against them for Ex post
> facto...What about that? And if they have the balls to complain, they
should
> take it to the Newsgroup as well....
>
> This is David, and these are my two cents...
I'm Ethan and a) I have no lawyer, b) I hope to never have one (the few
blatantly illegal activities I've done, aside from scaring the crap out of a
guy stalking a female friend, being years ago and I'm entirely ok with never
returning to Indiana/Ohio on odd chance I'd get in trouble...), c) I do not
think the complainant is entirely wrong in objecting, specific legalities
aside.
My abc cents, as it were.