YASD: Carbon, Trollish Monk (almost-Carbon-Fibre-Man)
Malte Helmert
the recent discussion about the Carbon Fibre Man challenge, obeying a
strict carrying capacity limit, has encouraged me to play the character
this post is about.
The proposed limit was 1000s, which if you think about it for a while is
more of an inconvenience than an actual challenge, so I decided to cut
that limit a bit, going down to 100s. Less than 100s, is of course
impossible because there are some items that need carrying around in
order to complete the game that weigh that much. As usual, no
crystal-scumming, no tree-scumming, and no other stuff like that.
The rest of this post might be a bit spoily, so...
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!
First, the utter stupid mistake that cost me that character: With a
carrying capacity limit of 100s, you have to carry down the orbs to CC48
one by one, not carrying any other equipment in that process. I decided
to carry the orbs first and my actual equipment last... only I didn't
remember *not to put the damn things into the elemental anomalies before
I had moved my equipment to that level*! Sigh... of course, the stairs
changed and I had to try D: 50 without any real equipment whatsoever, no
armor, no wands, no potions, no SoCRs, nothing... well, I picked up some
rocks on the way down, but that hardly counts if it hasn't been trained,
does it?
Still, I almost did it. I managed to clear out everything but the big
hall and could have killed the balors one after the other by luring them
out with some lever-handling fun, as I usually do down there.
Unfortunately, I spent a single turn next to the secret door in the main
hall, and this one turn was enough to have my over-alert character
detect the secret passage down there, waking up all the balors. I
managed to take down about five of them, but then died to corruption. Of
course, getting stiff muscles a couple of turns after entering CC50
didn't help much either.
Well, so much for the pitiful fate of that character, now some remarks
on the challenge.
100s is not much. For almost the entire game, the headgear, armor,
cloak, left/right hand, boots and missile weapons slots were empty. For
most of the time, I wore some amulet (first an amulet of defense, then
the ankh, in the very late game Preserver), an adamantium girdle, a ring
of slaying and a ring of mental stability, the bracers of war, the
elemental gauntlets, and the black torc as a missile. I found some
seven-league boots on the way, but left them on the floor because they
were too heavy. My crowning gift, the Iron Crown of Havlor, was only
worn at one occasion (ToEF). It was too heavy to drag down, though it is
definitely a nice artifact (got it for the first time).
Some insights for other people to try that challenge:
Troll pros:
* Food preservation is very nice. Corpse effects, especially stat gains,
get even more important, and of course you want to stay fed without
carrying around huge amounts of food. In the early game, I restricted
myself to ~20s for food, from the middle game, I went down to 5s, later
no food whatsoever, because I wanted to carry some potions, wands and
scrolls.
* Athletics is extremely nice because of the speed bonus. You are going
to need an excellent speed.
* High toughness means at least some points of PV, which never hurts.
High strength means high damage.
* Hit points, hit points, hit points.
Troll cons:
* High food consumption. I never starved though (except on D50, but the
game was over then anyway), but then monks have food consumption halved,
which means Trollish monks are like other-race somethings.
* Slow levelling. I wonder if I wouldn't have actually made more damage
in the late game (this is where it gets critical) with a monk of another
race: less strength, but better level-based damage.
* Aging! Without spells and real missiles, you have to be extremely
careful. The black torc was tremendously useful to kill ghosts and ghost
lords, but I also needed my wands of fire/magic missile in some cases
where it didn't feel like returning. And of course, the ghosts and ghost
bats before you get the torc (and acquire enough speed to be able to run
away and throw it repeatedly) are quite dangerous.
Monk pros:
* You don't need armor that dearly - in fact, you get a DV bonus for not
using it. And you don't need weapons at all. Because of this, I think
this challenge is made for monks, beastfighters, elementalists and
wizards, and as I consider the spellcasters a bit boring, a monk seems
to be the best option.
* Decreased food consumption. See above.
* Kicking down walls. You can't really carry a pick axe into the tower
of eternal flames, it is just too heavy. Wands of digging could be an
option, but then you need a fireproof blanket, and again, this is heavy.
* Athletics. See trolls.
* Alertness. I had to fight Nuurag-Vaarn without see invisible and
without any ranged attacks. This was no problem at all because none of
his > 50 ranged spell attacks actually hit me. I could even have gone
there without death ray resistance. He was easy enough to take out in
melee, I only lost a couple of points of appearance and perception.
* Healing never hurts of course, and Find Weakness was extremely useful.
* Excellent special abilities (walking speed), *and* at a comparatively
early level, which is important when playing trolls. The reduced
movement cost, together with a high speed, meant that I could basically
take out everything the moloch way: attack, retreat, attack, retreat,
.... This included various clones of the eternal guardian I had to deal
with: in this game, the ring of the High Kings is impossible to acquire
because climbing sets weigh more than 100s.
Monk cons:
* None, but of course they lack the pros of some other classes. Without
carrying capacity for missiles, good spellcasting would have been nice.
If you ever embark on the same mission as poor old Carbon, a monk is
definitely a good choice, though I'd think an elementalist might still
have an easier time. Elementalists will most probably have quite some
trouble in the mana temple though, so saving some scrolls of familiar
summoning for down there might be an idea. Otherwise, go for wizards,
but remember that you have to drop everything whenever you want to read
a spellbook (which isn't that bad if you're careful).
Of course, even if your character is weak, you can always let your
pets/slaves do the dirty work, so maybe you'd even feel like trying a
Necromancer, but then you'll get an early game which is even harder than
usual for a necromancer and won't be able to get herb training. And
remember that corpses that weigh more than 100s cannot be animated
because you're not allowed to pick them up... (or is it possible to
animate corpses on the ground?).
I'm not so sure about trolls. Ghosts were a substantial problem in this
game. If I ever try the same thing again, I'd probably go for a
different race, though I haven't made up my mind which. Possibly humans,
or does anyone have a better suggestion?
Malte
Barry Kearns
"Malte Helmert" <malte....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3ABF0AE9...@durham.ac.uk...
> Dear newsgroup,
>
> the recent discussion about the Carbon Fibre Man challenge, obeying a
> strict carrying capacity limit, has encouraged me to play the character
> this post is about.
>
> The proposed limit was 1000s, which if you think about it for a while is
> more of an inconvenience than an actual challenge, so I decided to cut
> that limit a bit, going down to 100s. Less than 100s, is of course
> impossible because there are some items that need carrying around in
> order to complete the game that weigh that much. As usual, no
> crystal-scumming, no tree-scumming, and no other stuff like that.
Impressive. When I saw the original Carbon Fibre man post, I had considered
posting, asking what the theoretical lower-limit for carrying capacity would
be. Nice to see that the challenge-game concept is alive and well.
Barry Kearns
bke...@frii.com
Chigbo Ikejiani
>Dear newsgroup,
>
>the recent discussion about the Carbon Fibre Man challenge, obeying a
>strict carrying capacity limit, has encouraged me to play the character
>this post is about.
>
>The proposed limit was 1000s, which if you think about it for a while is
>more of an inconvenience than an actual challenge, so I decided to cut
>that limit a bit, going down to 100s. Less than 100s, is of course
>impossible because there are some items that need carrying around in
>order to complete the game that weigh that much. As usual, no
>crystal-scumming, no tree-scumming, and no other stuff like that.
>
>The rest of this post might be a bit spoily, so...
[snip]
It's impressive as hell that you even got _that_ far.
A 100s challenge (Gossamer Man? Particle Man? Weight Watchers Man?)
seems to toe the line between challenge and suicidal insanity.
Of course, to each his own. Better luck next time.
Interesting side note: IIRC, 100s, according to the manual,
equates to about 5kg. Food for thought.
Dallan
--
Proving that "mature teenager" is not an oxymoron.
The less chance you could successfully defend your income tax return, the
greater the chance it will be randomly selected for audit.
Malte Helmert
> "Malte Helmert" <malte....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:3ABF0AE9...@durham.ac.uk...
> > Dear newsgroup,
> >
> > the recent discussion about the Carbon Fibre Man challenge, obeying a
> > strict carrying capacity limit, has encouraged me to play the character
> > this post is about.
> >
> > The proposed limit was 1000s, which if you think about it for a while is
> > more of an inconvenience than an actual challenge,
I wrote that before the other Carbon Fibre Man post actually made its way to my
server, otherwise I would have put it differently. So congratulations, nyra,
you made it, and I didn't. :-) And now why don't you go for the lower limit?
:-)
> so I decided to cut
> > that limit a bit, going down to 100s. Less than 100s, is of course
> > impossible because there are some items that need carrying around in
> > order to complete the game that weigh that much. As usual, no
> > crystal-scumming, no tree-scumming, and no other stuff like that.
>
> Impressive. When I saw the original Carbon Fibre man post, I had considered
> posting, asking what the theoretical lower-limit for carrying capacity would
> be. Nice to see that the challenge-game concept is alive and well.
Another possible challenge I've been considering while playing Carbon would be
a "no-rucksack" game, i.e. all pickups must go straight to the equipment, with
an empty inventory screen all of the time. Can you read from a hand or missile
slot? Probably not, so this would basically rule out spellcasters, except for
elementalists, but if you don't pose weight restrictions, this should be doable
with many other classes. Certain problems arise with cursed orbs, but then you
can always do it the safe way and carry them in the missile slot. No potions or
scrolls, but wands would be usable.
Malte
Barry Kearns
"Chigbo Ikejiani" <dal...@powersurfr.com> wrote in message
news:3abf6a0e...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> I sensed within the Dalnet the arrival of this new message from Malte
Helmert:
> It's impressive as hell that you even got _that_ far.
> A 100s challenge (Gossamer Man? Particle Man? Weight Watchers Man?)
> seems to toe the line between challenge and suicidal insanity.
Oh, I'm definitely in favor of calling the 100-stone version Particle Man...
:)
Barry Kearns
(adds Particle Man to his list of to-do's)
Chris Subich
<malte....@durham.ac.uk>, the evil little half-monkey he is, wrote:
>Another possible challenge I've been considering while playing Carbon would be
>a "no-rucksack" game, i.e. all pickups must go straight to the equipment, with
>an empty inventory screen all of the time. Can you read from a hand or missile
>slot? Probably not, so this would basically rule out spellcasters, except for
>elementalists, but if you don't pose weight restrictions, this should be doable
>with many other classes. Certain problems arise with cursed orbs, but then you
>can always do it the safe way and carry them in the missile slot. No potions or
>scrolls, but wands would be usable.
Hm - how about no more than one stack of items in inventory at _any_
time...
This doesn't eliminate spellcasters entirely, and allows usage of
PoCC/SoCR. (Can a game be finished without any of those?) It still rules
out most everything else, though.
--
Chris # csubich@g-d-i-.-n-e-t
# (remove dashes to email)
"... it is difficult to see any net benefit to consumers from
having a pretty picture that may cause their computer to hang"
- Lee A. Hollaar in Amicus Curiae in DoJ vs. Microsoft
nyra
> Barry Kearns wrote:
>
> > "Malte Helmert" <malte....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
> > news:3ABF0AE9...@durham.ac.uk...
> > > Dear newsgroup,
> > >
> > > the recent discussion about the Carbon Fibre Man challenge, obeying a
> > > strict carrying capacity limit, has encouraged me to play the character
> > > this post is about.
> > >
> > > The proposed limit was 1000s, which if you think about it for a while is
> > > more of an inconvenience than an actual challenge,
If i had been looking for a challenge, i would've set the limit to 600s (equivalent
to 30 kilos, which is about as much as i can lift without instantly falling over,
but that's not so strange for a person with a Str of about 5); but i had brought up
the whole idea as a bit of a realism issue. Basically, i wanted to test whether
ADoM is actually playable with an inventory weight restriction that'd pass as
barely sane in the real world. I must say that Monks don't lose too much in the way
of object functionality; a monk with no more than 1000s of inventory will play with
a lot more of an eye for the actual usefulness of stuff and dump most stuff that's
not really needed, but that's already it.
> And now why don't you go for the lower limit? :-)
Because that'd be too much of an arbitrary restriction for me; i didn't come up
with the carbon fibre idea as a "how low can you go" challenge, but rather (see
above) as enforcing a bit of realism. I'm really impressed by your achievement - i
mean, you must've offed Nuurag-Vaarn with this char and all that - but it's not
really tempting to me. I'll rather see how standard carbon fibre plays for
characters who must rely on weapons and armour to become worthy adventurers (had a
not-too-bad go at a grey elf paladin, but then i tried to train with that funky
mace of disruption i found, and the doppelganger lord was a rather tricky training
dummy...)
> Another possible challenge I've been considering while playing Carbon would be
> a "no-rucksack" game, i.e. all pickups must go straight to the equipment, with
> an empty inventory screen all of the time. Can you read from a hand or missile
> slot? Probably not, so this would basically rule out spellcasters, except for
> elementalists, but if you don't pose weight restrictions, this should be doable
> with many other classes.
The main problem will likely be cursed objects - *any* cursed object put in hand
will get stuck there (so for example you can starve to death whilst wielding a
cursed hurthling cake - this actually happened to me once), and without scrolls and
potions, getting rid of cursed equipment will be rather difficult. The only
equipment location available to lug unknown stuff to the nearest altar will be the
missile slot, i.e. you'd have to move your "stuff to ID" one item at a time.
Alexander Deubelbeiss
Malte Helmert schrieb in Nachricht <3ABF0AE9...@durham.ac.uk>...
>Dear newsgroup,
>
>the recent discussion about the Carbon Fibre Man challenge, obeying a
>strict carrying capacity limit, has encouraged me to play the character
>this post is about.
>
the TOEFL with a normal character... ;)
Malte Helmert
> Hm - how about no more than one stack of items in inventory at _any_
> time...
>
> This doesn't eliminate spellcasters entirely, and allows usage of
> PoCC/SoCR. (Can a game be finished without any of those?) It still rules
> out most everything else, though.
Hmm, maybe that's an idea. Although I like challenges that cannot be done "the easy
way" by playing a Wizard. ;-) You can definitely win a usual game without a
PoCC/SoCR. I've won games using only one SoCR and delaying the Unicorn quest until
the very end, so if you don't delay the Unicorn quest, it should be possible. Of
course, if you get unlucky with the corruptions you get (stiff muscles come to
mind, who cares about poison hands/mana battery in this challenge?), it will become
next to impossible, so more luck is involved. And in that challenge, you'd have to
move around more to get the orbs down.
Malte
Malte Helmert
> It's impressive as hell that you even got _that_ far.
> A 100s challenge (Gossamer Man? Particle Man? Weight Watchers Man?)
> seems to toe the line between challenge and suicidal insanity.
>
> Of course, to each his own. Better luck next time.
I won't have much time for the newsgroup or ADOM in the next two weeks or so, so
I suspect the first victory in this challenge goes to somebody else.
Barry, you said you'd put this challenge on your list. It would be nice if you
wouldn't put it on the front. ;-) I'm eagerly waiting for Oog Jr. anyway.
> Interesting side note: IIRC, 100s, according to the manual,
> equates to about 5kg. Food for thought.
Yes, many characters easily lug around about 500 kg. And the stuff they carry
must be quite voluminous, too.
Malte
Barry Kearns
> Chris Subich wrote:
>
> > Hm - how about no more than one stack of items in inventory at _any_
> > time...
> >
> > This doesn't eliminate spellcasters entirely, and allows usage of
> > PoCC/SoCR. (Can a game be finished without any of those?) It still rules
> > out most everything else, though.
>
> Hmm, maybe that's an idea. Although I like challenges that cannot be done
"the easy
> way" by playing a Wizard. ;-)
Oog is definitely not one that can be done the "easy way" by a Wizard. In
fact, it may be near-impossible for a Wizard. An elementalist might work (and
might work rather well, actually..).
Barry Kearns
bke...@frii.com
(gone through half-a-dozen OogJr characters already)
Malte Helmert
> Oog is definitely not one that can be done the "easy way" by a Wizard. In
> fact, it may be near-impossible for a Wizard. An elementalist might work (and
> might work rather well, actually..).
Yes, that's one of the reasons I like that challenge.
> (gone through half-a-dozen OogJr characters already)
What do you consider the biggest problems in that challenge? Are there any
non-obvious strategies you would recommend?
Malte
Barry Kearns
> Barry Kearns wrote:
>
> > Oog is definitely not one that can be done the "easy way" by a Wizard. In
> > fact, it may be near-impossible for a Wizard. An elementalist might work
(and
> > might work rather well, actually..).
>
> Yes, that's one of the reasons I like that challenge.
>
> > (gone through half-a-dozen OogJr characters already)
>
> What do you consider the biggest problems in that challenge?
1) Corruption. You only ever get one shot to reset it, and after that you
have to live with what you get, and hope you don't become a WMOPC too soon. I
gave one of them up who got stiff muscles as corruption #1.
2) The eternal guardian. I made it past him last time (the one I recorded) by
picking up huge speed from the quickling tree... and as I recall, it was a
squeaker surviving even then. I'm unsure if I can make it without the speed,
but getting it consumes HUGE game-calendar time.
3) As I recall, the ToEF was a bear as well. Took me several runs on the
near-complete one, haven't done it yet with any of the newer ones.
As an aside, rivers (which are new for me) and other water barriers represent
problems for me. Didn't bother with bridge building... figured I'd just swim
across for Water Temple. Almost got trapped / died a few times.
> Are there any
> non-obvious strategies you would recommend?
>
> Malte
Slow and easy, and plan out the order to hit things in, to try to minimize
wasted time. Hope you don't get nasty corruptions early. If so, consider how
long they can be lived with, and if you'll be able to make it past char lvl 30
with them. Save the unicorn for as late in the process as possible.
Rocks are your friend. Cache them whenever possible, especially if you're
playing a non-monk.
Malte Helmert
[Oog Jr.]
> > What do you consider the biggest problems in that challenge?
>
> 1) Corruption. You only ever get one shot to reset it, and after that you
> have to live with what you get, and hope you don't become a WMOPC too soon. I
> gave one of them up who got stiff muscles as corruption #1.
That's the first one I'd have expected.
> 2) The eternal guardian. I made it past him last time (the one I recorded) by
> picking up huge speed from the quickling tree... and as I recall, it was a
> squeaker surviving even then. I'm unsure if I can make it without the speed,
> but getting it consumes HUGE game-calendar time.
Hmm... with Carbon, I managed to sneak past the eternal guardian with speed ~150
(no quickling corpses or Raven sign, but having the +20 speed corruption, good
Dexterity and Athletics), so it should be possible without the quickling tree,
but not exactly easy.
> As an aside, rivers (which are new for me) and other water barriers represent
> problems for me. Didn't bother with bridge building...
You couldn't use it in the challenge anyway, could you?
> figured I'd just swim across for Water Temple. Almost got trapped / died a few
> times.
Hmm... don't you pick up teleportitis and teleport control with those
characters? With non-spellcasters, I usually just blink across in the water
temple.
Malte
Barry Kearns
> Barry Kearns wrote:
> > As an aside, rivers (which are new for me) and other water barriers
represent
> > problems for me. Didn't bother with bridge building...
>
> You couldn't use it in the challenge anyway, could you?
Doh. I would have realized that as soon as I tried to use it... ;)
> > figured I'd just swim across for Water Temple. Almost got trapped / died
a few
> > times.
>
> Hmm... don't you pick up teleportitis and teleport control with those
> characters? With non-spellcasters, I usually just blink across in the water
> temple.
Had tele control, but not teleportitis yet.
Barry Kearns
bke...@frii.com