Beastfighter vs. Monk
Peter
discuss!
Both beastfighters and monks start with healing. Monks start with
literacy. Beastfighers start with herbalism, which is not hard to get
(but annoying because of high number of cats usually spawning on DD:7)
through the druid quest. Monks start with alertness and find weakness,
dark elven beastfighters also get it. Both classes have reduction of
movement costs as class powers, also both classes have the power that
allows them to swap positions with hostile creaures (not that there
isn't much use for it, but it sometimes helps with summoners and
cats). Although monk powers seem more awesome (yay for wall-kicking!),
beastfighters got higher starting physical stats and herbalism (so one
can dive UD right from the start and hope for herbs). Beastfighters
are much easier to keep alive in early game, aslo beastfighters do not
have monks' trouble with burden levels. Monks, on the other hand, do
not have beastfighters' problems with penalties for using melee
weapons.
So which class is more appealling to you and why? Me, I say hurthling
beastfighters ftw, if only because of archery and food preservation +
they get free ring! No really, they level-up fast, they are tough,
and... they start with archery!
Jan Heikel
Also monks are way cooler imo. As more rational reasons I'd have to say
that the ability to use weapons can be a lifesaver. Kicking down walls
is very usefull (and extremely cool), they get the movement bonus sooner
and it's better (propably the best special ability of any class),
exchanging positions with monsters can be a real life saver (for both
you and cats) and monks also get that earlier than beasties.
Only things going for beasties is better starting stats and herbalism
(both of which are insignificant after you survive the early game). Also
I would rank the monks level 50 ability (lowered corruption) higher than
the beasties (+6 to St and To) because if either of these classes gets
to level 50 they are going to be such killing machines that the stat
bonus won't really make that much of a difference.
Granted that beasties are propably easier in the early game, but at
level 12 monks will become much more powerful (due to the movement bonus).
Also correct if I'm wrong but I seem to remember that monks actually
have better hand to hand attack than beasties.
Peter
Hurthlings are probably the best choice for unarmed fighters. Imo they
are the best race overall, Archery is too good to pass and I just love
Lightning Shot.
Lvl 50, unarmed class bonuses:
Monk: + 100 to hit 1d58+12 dam +33 DV +25 spd
Beastfighter: +106 to hit 1d36+37 dam +16 DV +25 spd
Monks get more DV, but beastfighters hit harder (not much harder
though).
I have to disagree on lvl 50 power: +6 St and To equals +6 to hit/
damage, +3 PV and +hitpoints. And 10% reduction in corrupion for lvl.
50 character probably equals one or two extra SoCR.
Jan Heikel
You make a good argument there, but still I'm not convinced. My point
was that a lvl 50 monk or beastfighter is tough enough to finish the
game easily without the bonuses to St and To so they don't really make
much difference (not saying it ain't a nice bonus). I've found that in
the late game corruption is much bigger problem than my ability to do or
sustain damage (but maybe that's just me and I'm doing something wrong).
Also a plus for the monk is that they make way better spellcasters than
beasties. With a little help from the RNGod a monk can be just
ridiculously easy (just add teleportation, darkness and strenght of
atlas to your monks repertuare and you know what I'm talking about)
Mik
Out of curiosity... why darkness?
I never seem to use this spell - in what situation do you find it useful?
Peter
Our discussion seems to be "6 potions of stats vs. approx. 2 SoCR" (3
wishes vs. 1) I think corruption reduction is more important if going
for ultra, in case of normal victory... I'd rather have potions,
please. Still, it's a matter of personal preference, I hate to scum
for stats, but I do like 'em high :) so beasties' power is more
appealing to me.
Yeah, but hey, if I wanted easy game I would generate GE wizard (and
you know what I'm talking about;)) No, really, it's all about fun.
Starting out tough but illiterate, capable of (ab)using herbs to
become even tougher, but unable to use scrolls until dwarftown (or
until lucky RNG gift of literate corpse) can be lots of fun. I won't
disagree though - monks are a better and stronger class. But tedious
early game and headache with burden levels can take away the fun.
Peter
Some monsters, including very powerful ones can't see in darkness,
meaning they won't fight. They will just stay in one place with you
bashing them mercilessly. Unless they panic, that is, in which case
they will attack, but only if they don't have a way to escape.
Jan Heikel
>
> Yeah, but hey, if I wanted easy game I would generate GE wizard (and
> you know what I'm talking about;))
Going a bit off topic here, but since it seems there are a total of
three people on this newsgroup I don't care.
Actually I don't. Or actually I do but not from personal experience (I
almost never play wizards I think I've ever rolled only a single GE
Wiz). But if you want to talk about easy then nothing can beat the gnome
bard that happens to get good skill set. I actually have one right now
that I found was not too fun to play. It's now level 20 and I think it's
already close to being tough enough to finish the game.
On a side note does a blessed ring of ice also protect the stuff in my
backpack or do I still need a couple of fireproof blankets if I want to
carry some stuff with me to you know where?
Peter
Wizards are so easy it's almost boring (if here is such thing as
"boring" in ADOM). GE wizard is probably equally easy compared to
gnomish bards, but capable of finishing game faster than bards.
No, rings of ice only protect worn equipment, so get some blessed
fireproof blankets. Good luck in you know where killing you know whom.
...going off topic even further :)
Jan Heikel
I'd say there is boring in ADOM - the Gnome bard being one of them. I
only play him rarely for a short time. Yesterday did a certain very hot
place and found that the ring of Ice actually does protect equipment in
backpack. Not perfectly though since I still lost some RNG-fodder, but I
have no shortage of that with a treasure hunter bard that is able to
cast strenght of atlas. The wyrm was too easy with slaying ammo.
I also remembered why it is I'm feeling kind of stuck with him. With
pages and pages of junk gathered he still has never found any means to
cross certain colored water (didn't start with herbalism).
Darren Grey
> On 12 фев, 23:13, Jan Heikel <j...@heikel.fi> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12.2.2010 22:31, Peter wrote:
>
> > > Yeah, but hey, if I wanted easy game I would generate GE wizard (and
> > > you know what I'm talking about;))
>
> > Going a bit off topic here, but since it seems there are a total of
> > three people on this newsgroup I don't care.
>
> > Actually I don't. Or actually I do but not from personal experience (I
> > almost never play wizards I think I've ever rolled only a single GE
> > Wiz). But if you want to talk about easy then nothing can beat the gnome
> > bard that happens to get good skill set. I actually have one right now
> > that I found was not too fun to play. It's now level 20 and I think it's
> > already close to being tough enough to finish the game.
>
> > On a side note does a blessed ring of ice also protect the stuff in my
> > backpack or do I still need a couple of fireproof blankets if I want to
> > carry some stuff with me to you know where?
>
> Wizards are so easy it's almost boring (if here is such thing as
> "boring" in ADOM). GE wizard is probably equally easy compared to
> gnomish bards, but capable of finishing game faster than bards.
Indeed, wizards can finish the game in around 6k turns if you want to
really rush through things (and doing so can be one way of making them
fun again).
> No, rings of ice only protect worn equipment, so get some blessed
> fireproof blankets. Good luck in you know where killing you know whom.
They do protect backpack stuff, but not perfectly like fireproof
blankets do. Certainly enough for a quick Tower run though.
--
Darren Grey
CCC
> I also remembered why it is I'm feeling kind of stuck with him. With
> pages and pages of junk gathered he still has never found any means to
> cross certain colored water (didn't start with herbalism).
That's why I always save the carpenter; a little bit of work with a
hatchet and a manual of bridge building solves that little problem
very well indeed (though not as quickly as a wand of cold and less
weight; dropping a lot of stuff near the stairs might also be a good
idea).
I haven't been stepping in on the beastfighter/monk discussion,
because I generally feel that if you're having to bash enemies you
really should be a troll healer (and the furthest I've got with one of
them is the graveyard; they don't take aging well).
I've tried the GE wizards, but they tend to fall to early stone block
traps before they're tough enough to survive that... my only win thus
far has been a drakeling wizard. I think a drakeling mindcrafter has a
lot to recommend him as well, though; undead is less of a problem to
someone who spits acid.
- CCC
Jan Heikel
So the damn gnomish bard I was talking about finally died. Two breaths
from a Giant dragon turtle on consecutive rounds, both doing about 200
points of damage. I really didn't remember they were that tough. And of
course I could have saved him by just teleporting away, but when things
are going too well I tend to get careless.