On 30.07.2022 01:07, Chris Bowers wrote:
> But, to be honest it's just all about the Altar.
>
> There's a guaranteed Altar in minetown. [...] You CAN use wands
> outside the altar to kill the priest. Real risky though!
The only time I tackle that priest is when I have a powerful pet
that does the dirty job for me. This can (early game) typically
only be achieved if you stumble across a polymorph-trap (in the
mines' deeper levels) and have MR or more likely a magic whistle.
>
> They say that you should go to sokobon to get food to sacrifice.
It depends on the role. Generally I'd rather say that you should
(before altar camping) strive for Sokoban to get nutritious food.
A couple classes start the game already with enough food.
> This
> usually isn't true though. Exploring the first few levels of the
> dungeon may provide enough food that at a low level (3 or 4) [...]
Usually not (in my games). Depending on initial food equipment
I have to find enough monsters (that I can kill and are edible
and nutritious enough), typically, or strive to places where
there's food guaranteed.
>
> I think pretty much the Altar is the whole key to the game, and if
> not the altar, a way to get an artifact weapon (such as dipping for
> lawfuls).
An early artifact is typically a game changer. An early altar
therefore too (also for the other purposes of altars).
>
> Looking back on past failed games nearly every one had the same
> problem: lack of a co-aligned altar or lack of a way to get an
> artifact weapon (or both).
I think this is a very simplified view. Even if you are not a
good player and need every source of lucky findings and events
you should not make that a principle and count on those.
I suggest build a mindset to try winning every game by thinking
about the concrete death reasons in your games and when you get
in situations derive solutions from your thoughts and insights.
>
> The artifact weapon is an absolute fulcrum of the game. [...]
I would formulate it as "The artifact weapon from the subset of
*good* artifacts ..."; there are many quite useless artifacts.
>
> So, the... kind of annoying thing about it is that really what's
> going on is that games you find or can convert a co-aligned altar:
> you win. Games without one: you lose.
Of course this is not true, in many ways. But it's true that your
chances increase with an altar because it opens several game-play
options for the player. (You've enumerated a couple.)
>
> Now that's not every single game. Once I found a fully charged WoW!
> on the 2nd level of the gnomish mines. That was a fun and very easy
> ascension.
That's also another mindset (and also experience) issue; if you
can win only with wishes and/or altars it says something about
your proficiency as well, not only about the game design. For
other players the fun may be to solve interesting or difficult
situations (and learn from them), and they may get bored if they
start with many wishes.
>
> But the real deal, the real thing I think needs to be faced is that
> an altar and all it's advantages (luck, holy water, curse testing,
> artifact weapon generating), is such a super boon, that the fact that
> they are random makes the difficulty of the game (IMHO) depend a lot
> on luck.
I agree.
In Slashem, just for an alternative and for comparison, it's a
bit different. I have got the feeling (not sure, though) that
there are significantly less altars (and also temples) randomly
created. But there are a few guaranteed ones as compensation,
though at level depths that you have to be able to reach alive
in the first place. (Lawful quest @dlvl:15-19 has a co-aligned
altar, for example.) Also, if you kill the temple priest at the
mine town you may not find another priest to donate for divine
protection.
>
> It seems like players are resistant to this conclusion, that really
> the cause and effect going on is: altar=very likely ascension. No
> altar= difficult ascension or possibly death.
I've never heard anyone claiming that an early altar would not
increase your chances to win. Where did you get that impression
from?
Janis