info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Samurai running out of ya (arrows)
33 views
Skip to first unread message
Yosemite Sam
Jul 21, 2022, 5:33:48 PM7/21/22
to
I'm thinking of carrying four wakizashi (short swords) to throw.
Daggers only go to basic.
Daggers only go to basic.
Janis Papanagnou
Jul 21, 2022, 7:49:14 PM7/21/22
to
On 21.07.2022 23:33, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> I'm thinking of carrying four wakizashi (short swords) to throw.
> Daggers only go to basic.
Wakizashis are heavier and have no to-hit bonus; in practice I
> I'm thinking of carrying four wakizashi (short swords) to throw.
> Daggers only go to basic.
miss a lot and thus get bored using them in the first place.
I'd prefer carrying a few daggers that stack and I can enchant.
But Samurai are anyway melee fighters; getting Snickersnee or
Excalibur and two-weaponing any of those with another longsword
or sabre is very effective. (I would spend my skill slots for
longsword, two-weaponing, and sabres, and possibly bow and/or
basic daggers.)
In reply to your subject: Samurai running out of ya (arrows)...
There's so many arrow traps (visit the mines) and also creatures
with bows that you should be able to easily replenish your quiver.
Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Jul 22, 2022, 12:46:36 AM7/22/22
to
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 01:49:10 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 21.07.2022 23:33, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>> I'm thinking of carrying four wakizashi (short swords) to throw.
>> Daggers only go to basic.
>
> Wakizashis are heavier and have no to-hit bonus; in practice I
> miss a lot and thus get bored using them in the first place.
About the only thing I use the starting wakizashi of Samurai for, is
> On 21.07.2022 23:33, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>> I'm thinking of carrying four wakizashi (short swords) to throw.
>> Daggers only go to basic.
>
> Wakizashis are heavier and have no to-hit bonus; in practice I
> miss a lot and thus get bored using them in the first place.
fighting corroding monsters before encountering corrosion resistant
weapons like elven daggers. (Even in corroded state a wakizashi is a
bit more effective than early bare-handed combat, those reducing the
over-all probability of receiving splash-hits...)
> I'd prefer carrying a few daggers that stack and I can enchant.
> But Samurai are anyway melee fighters;
to spare (breaking) ya, I sometimes let (few, weak) monsters approach
me without using ranged attacks.
On crossroads, I usually go first to the top one or two level(s) of
the mines, to get daggers as replacement for the shrinking stack of ya.
> getting Snickersnee or Excalibur and two-weaponing any of those with
> another longsword or sabre is very effective.
> I would spend my skill slots for longsword, two-weaponing, and sabres,
> and possibly bow and/or basic daggers.
dagger often comes somewhere between basic and expert two-weaponing for
me, though. This depends a bit on strength, armor, number of ya left,
and the like. Instead of saber, advancing shuriken is worth considering
later in the game. (Especially after the quest.)
> In reply to your subject: Samurai running out of ya (arrows)...
> There's so many arrow traps (visit the mines) and also creatures
> with bows that you should be able to easily replenish your quiver.
seldom advance bow with samurai and switch to daggers as soon as possible.
(Although expert bow can be /really/ awesome.) Normal arrows being less
effective than ya, I seldom bother with them. There's also the risk of
multishot hitting peaceful monsters. Samurai with basic dagger don't have
this (dis)advantage... ;-)
BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
Janis Papanagnou
Jul 22, 2022, 3:47:26 AM7/22/22
to
On 22.07.2022 06:46, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 01:49:10 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
[...]
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 01:49:10 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> About the only thing I use the starting wakizashi of Samurai for, is
> fighting corroding monsters before encountering corrosion resistant
> weapons like elven daggers.
Same here. Keeping the initial katana uncorroded is important in
> About the only thing I use the starting wakizashi of Samurai for, is
> fighting corroding monsters before encountering corrosion resistant
> weapons like elven daggers.
early game. (In practice, though, I nonetheless often end with a
rusty katana due to sloppy play and hope for an artifact.)
> [...] Instead of saber, advancing shuriken is worth considering
> later in the game. (Especially after the quest.)
That was never a factor in my [Samurai] games; they are far too
rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
>
>> In reply to your subject: Samurai running out of ya (arrows)...
>> There's so many arrow traps (visit the mines) and also creatures
>> with bows that you should be able to easily replenish your quiver.
>
> With two-weaponing, switching to bow becomes a nuisance. Therefore, I
> seldom advance bow with samurai and switch to daggers as soon as possible.
> (Although expert bow can be /really/ awesome.) Normal arrows being less
> effective than ya, I seldom bother with them. There's also the risk of
> multishot hitting peaceful monsters. Samurai with basic dagger don't have
> this (dis)advantage... ;-)
to a good state I use and enhance bow at times because expert
bow is so effective even with ordinary arrows. Misguided missile
weapons is rarely an issue for me if I avoid shooting them in
the dark.
Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Jul 22, 2022, 1:08:50 PM7/22/22
to
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 09:47:22 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> [...] Instead of saber, advancing shuriken is worth considering
>> later in the game. (Especially after the quest.)
>
> That was never a factor in my [Samurai] games; they are far too
> rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
The only considerable source is the Quest. But it tends to provide
>> [...] Instead of saber, advancing shuriken is worth considering
>> later in the game. (Especially after the quest.)
>
> That was never a factor in my [Samurai] games; they are far too
> rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
more than enough. /If/ I train them, then to Expert. And I get a
stack of several dozen shuriken to blessed erodeproof +7, which makes
a fierce impact even in the later game. With enough luck and blessing,
breaking them is not a real issue.
The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more
hand-to-hand combat.
[Multishot]
> Misguided missile weapons is rarely an issue for me if I avoid shooting
> them in the dark.
I never got used to "throw[number]". It didn't work as expected when I
> them in the dark.
"trained" my muscle memory for the current shortcut layout of Nethack.
Accidentally killed minetown guards from attempts on this shortcut are
legend... ;-) And I don't really know, if it works now, reliably.
Must be years, since I last tried.
Pat Rankin
Jul 22, 2022, 4:58:12 PM7/22/22
to
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 10:08:50 AM UTC-7, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
[...]
else always throws 1. You're confusing that with <count> t (or
<count> f; for number_pad, n <count> t or n <count> f).
Throwing/shooting doesn't allow a repeat count but specifying
a number in the command repeat count position can be used to
impose a maximum number of missiles for multi-shot. That is
mainly useful if you might kill your target in mid-volley and want
to avoid hitting other monsters behind it with the remainder of
the volley.
t2x throws 2 if x is '$', otherwise object selection tells you that
the 2 is being ignored when you specify x and you'll throw 1;
2tx throws at most 2 x even if skill+role+race would allow more;
it will throw less (1 in this instance) if your stack size is less
or the random multi-shot amount picks less [put another way,
you can't use that to force 2 missiles unless you would have
thrown/shot at least 2 anyway].
[...]
> I never got used to "throw[number]". It didn't work as expected when I
> "trained" my muscle memory for the current shortcut layout of Nethack.
> Accidentally killed minetown guards from attempts on this shortcut are
> legend... ;-) And I don't really know, if it works now, reliably.
> Must be years, since I last tried.
Throwing a specific number only works for gold, everything
> "trained" my muscle memory for the current shortcut layout of Nethack.
> Accidentally killed minetown guards from attempts on this shortcut are
> legend... ;-) And I don't really know, if it works now, reliably.
> Must be years, since I last tried.
else always throws 1. You're confusing that with <count> t (or
<count> f; for number_pad, n <count> t or n <count> f).
Throwing/shooting doesn't allow a repeat count but specifying
a number in the command repeat count position can be used to
impose a maximum number of missiles for multi-shot. That is
mainly useful if you might kill your target in mid-volley and want
to avoid hitting other monsters behind it with the remainder of
the volley.
t2x throws 2 if x is '$', otherwise object selection tells you that
the 2 is being ignored when you specify x and you'll throw 1;
2tx throws at most 2 x even if skill+role+race would allow more;
it will throw less (1 in this instance) if your stack size is less
or the random multi-shot amount picks less [put another way,
you can't use that to force 2 missiles unless you would have
thrown/shot at least 2 anyway].
Janis Papanagnou
Jul 22, 2022, 8:20:27 PM7/22/22
to
On 22.07.2022 19:08, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 09:47:22 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>>> [...] Instead of saber, advancing shuriken is worth considering
>>> later in the game. (Especially after the quest.)
>>
>> That was never a factor in my [Samurai] games; they are far too
>> rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
>
> The only considerable source is the Quest. But it tends to provide
> more than enough. /If/ I train them, then to Expert. And I get a
> stack of several dozen shuriken to blessed erodeproof +7, which makes
> a fierce impact even in the later game. With enough luck and blessing,
> breaking them is not a real issue.
>
> The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
> playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more
> hand-to-hand combat.
This is not true and I cannot see where you derive that from. Usually
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 09:47:22 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>>> [...] Instead of saber, advancing shuriken is worth considering
>>> later in the game. (Especially after the quest.)
>>
>> That was never a factor in my [Samurai] games; they are far too
>> rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
>
> The only considerable source is the Quest. But it tends to provide
> more than enough. /If/ I train them, then to Expert. And I get a
> stack of several dozen shuriken to blessed erodeproof +7, which makes
> a fierce impact even in the later game. With enough luck and blessing,
> breaking them is not a real issue.
>
> The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
> playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more
> hand-to-hand combat.
it depends on the class played (and also on the stage of the game).
With extremely proficient two-weapon melee fighters like Samurai the
melee capabilities are outstanding. Nonetheless I use bow/arrows (as
I wrote) if it fits for a specific game. My shuriken deprecation is
primarily because I rarely get enough of those at stages of the game
where they are most useful. Other classes are even more ranged-attack
centric; e.g. Rogues (with daggers), also Rangers, just to name two
obvious ones. But back to Samurai; if you can kill [in Nethack] every
monster in one turn, tough monsters in two turns, ranged attacks are
not important any more. A different issue in Slashem, where you will
see a lot monsters that are a lot more dangerous. OTOH, in Slashem
you can two-weapon two even more powerful artifacts than in Nethack,
which, at least to a certain degree, alleviates the tough monsters
induced situations a bit. Nonetheless, even buffed up characters that
are two-weaponing fully enchanted artifacts will use ranged attacks
to their advantage; I regularly use, for example, frag grenades.
Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Jul 23, 2022, 2:09:57 AM7/23/22
to
Clicking <1> on the number pad results in movement down-left (no matter,
what the numlock state is). The same goes for clicking <1> on the main
part of the keyboard. Therefore, no following command will ever register
the <1> as a counter.
Clicking <f><1> immediately fires the quivered item (multishot; not just 1)
down-left, regardless of the numlock state. (True again, for <1> on the
number pad and the main part of the keyboard.)
Clicking <t> opens the selection menu. Clicking <1><d> (with d being the
starting ya of the Samurai while wielding the bow as Expert): With numlock
on, nothing happens when clicking <1> either on the number pad or the main
keyboard. With numlock turned off, clicking <1> on the number pad selects
the "list everything" entry. Clicking <1> on the main part of the keyboard
(again) has no function.
Clicking <t><d> immediately shoots (from the selection menu), as is to be
expected.
The only 2 ways to get a number of ya selected from the throw-menu is by
pre-selecting the menu entry <d> by either mouse or cursor keys. (Both
ways being interruptive to game flow.) IMHO, entering <t><1><d> should
turn the selection counter for /all/ shown menu items (visibly) to 1 after
hitting the key <1> on either the number pad or the main keyboard. Whether
this selection count is shown behind every entry or in an additional line,
would, IMHO, be just a secondary interface decision.
No version of t2x or 2tx works for me with either gold or any other item.
And I just tested with number_pad:1 and got the same results for every
point mentioned above. This testing was done on a pristine v3.66 in
Wizard mode, btw.
As for the entered number always being just a /maximum/ for the selection
algorithm: I'm well aware of this. ;-)
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Jul 23, 2022, 2:20:59 AM7/23/22
to
On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 02:20:24 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 22.07.2022 19:08, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 09:47:22 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
[Shuriken]
> On 22.07.2022 19:08, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 09:47:22 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>> That was never a factor in my [Samurai] games; they are far too
>>> rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
>>
>> The only considerable source is the Quest. But it tends to provide
>> more than enough. /If/ I train them, then to Expert. And I get a
>> stack of several dozen shuriken to blessed erodeproof +7, which makes
>> a fierce impact even in the later game. With enough luck and blessing,
>> breaking them is not a real issue.
>>
>> The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
>> playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more
>> hand-to-hand combat.
>
> This is not true and I cannot see where you derive that from.
Let's see. ;-)
>>> rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
>>
>> The only considerable source is the Quest. But it tends to provide
>> more than enough. /If/ I train them, then to Expert. And I get a
>> stack of several dozen shuriken to blessed erodeproof +7, which makes
>> a fierce impact even in the later game. With enough luck and blessing,
>> breaking them is not a real issue.
>>
>> The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
>> playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more
>> hand-to-hand combat.
>
> This is not true and I cannot see where you derive that from.
> Usually it depends on the class played
capable of reaching Expert and the only class with a guaranteed (high)
number of these items. (Because of the Quest.)
> With extremely proficient two-weapon melee fighters like Samurai the
> melee capabilities are outstanding.
> My shuriken deprecation is primarily because I rarely get enough of those
> at stages of the game where they are most useful.
> if you can kill [in Nethack] every monster in one turn, tough monsters in
> two turns, ranged attacks are not important any more.
And that's, where we differ (as I wrote). You turn mostly to melee when
> two turns, ranged attacks are not important any more.
your character is proficient enough. I don't. Therefore, you do not regard
enhancing Shuriken worth enhancing late in the game, while I do.
Please note: I don't think one approach to be better than the other! They
are just different, to a degree.
Pat Rankin
Jul 23, 2022, 3:21:51 AM7/23/22
to
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 11:09:57 PM UTC-7, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
> Just tried (with the force_invmenu set and number_pad:2, as always):
Menu selection counts are broken in Windows GUI interface.
> Just tried (with the force_invmenu set and number_pad:2, as always):
If you're using that then you should have said so.
For other interfaces, including 'tty' as implemented by the
so-called console version on Windows, 't' works just as I said.
Even with these options set as you indicate, although I would
never choose either of those so dispute "as always".
'f' doesn't allow specifying a count with the selection because
the item to select as the missile is already decided--that's the
whole point of having 'f' plus 'Q' as an alternative to 't'.
Both 't' and 'f' allow using the command repeat count as a way
to limit the multi-shot amount, even with Windows GUI. Anyone
who uses number_pad has to be aware that the first digit of a
repeat count must be preceded by the 'n' prefix. Do you perform
multi-turn searches by holding down the 's' key instead of using
something like n9s? n2tx is comparable.
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Jul 23, 2022, 4:39:36 AM7/23/22
to
On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 00:21:50 -0700 (PDT), Pat Rankin wrote:
> On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 11:09:57 PM UTC-7, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
>> Just tried (with the force_invmenu set and number_pad:2, as always):
>
> Menu selection counts are broken in Windows GUI interface.
> If you're using that then you should have said so.
My original mentioning of that problem in this thread wasn't a bug report.
> On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 11:09:57 PM UTC-7, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
>> Just tried (with the force_invmenu set and number_pad:2, as always):
>
> Menu selection counts are broken in Windows GUI interface.
> If you're using that then you should have said so.
We've already been digging through this issue a couple of years ago.
> Both 't' and 'f' allow using the command repeat count as a way
> to limit the multi-shot amount, even with Windows GUI. Anyone
> who uses number_pad has to be aware that the first digit of a
> repeat count must be preceded by the 'n' prefix. Do you perform
> multi-turn searches by holding down the 's' key instead of using
> something like n9s? n2tx is comparable.
your concern. ;-) It is a bit difficult, though: The only command I use
the counter with, is resting. With searching, I don't hold the <s> key
pressed. But I usually don't use the counter, either. Most hidden things
are revealed up to the third search. Pressing <s> a couple of times in a
row is therefore (statistically) more efficient than a numbered sequence.
Only when something important isn't revealed by this method (a door-less
room or the like), I sometimes switch to numbered searches.
With shooting (<f> as well as <t>), the usual approach is allowance for
an unlimited number of projectiles going off. Therefore, hitting <f> or
<t> first is burned in. Only when peaceful/tame monsters are further down
the line of shooting, consideration for limiting multi-shots is required.
Playing nearly always petless, this situation is /really/ rare. Therefore,
it is hard to remember /pre/fixing <f> or <t> with an <n> counter.
Changing the (Windows GUI) throwing menu selection process to also permit
sequences like <t><1><d> to limit multi-shots, would therefore be a good
thing to implement, IMHO...
Janis Papanagnou
Jul 23, 2022, 12:09:02 PM7/23/22
to
On 23.07.2022 08:20, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
>>>
>>> The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
>>> playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more
>>> hand-to-hand combat.
>>
>> This is not true and I cannot see where you derive that from.
>
> Let's see. ;-)
>
>> Usually it depends on the class played
>
> [...]
>>>
>>> The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
>>> playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more
>>> hand-to-hand combat.
>>
>> This is not true and I cannot see where you derive that from.
>
> Let's see. ;-)
>
>> Usually it depends on the class played
>
>
>> My shuriken deprecation is primarily because I rarely get enough of those
>> at stages of the game where they are most useful.
> [...]
>> if you can kill [in Nethack] every monster in one turn, tough monsters in
>> two turns, ranged attacks are not important any more.
>
> And that's, where we differ (as I wrote). You turn mostly to melee when
> your character is proficient enough.
(I was speaking of Samurai in this context. And it's still not true
>> My shuriken deprecation is primarily because I rarely get enough of those
>> at stages of the game where they are most useful.
> [...]
>> if you can kill [in Nethack] every monster in one turn, tough monsters in
>> two turns, ranged attacks are not important any more.
>
> And that's, where we differ (as I wrote). You turn mostly to melee when
> your character is proficient enough.
generally; see below: Rogues.)
> I don't. Therefore, you do not regard
> enhancing Shuriken worth enhancing late in the game, while I do.
If there's not enough objects of that type, skill slots are wasted.
I wonder that you seem to have a different experience here; are you
really finding so many shurikens in your games? (I certainly don't.)
>
> Please note: I don't think one approach to be better than the other! They
> are just different, to a degree.
I give you an example; with Rogues I generally start to throw daggers
immediately. Why? Because I can find abundances of daggers, missiles
that don't go out of supply, skills (skill-slots) that are not wasted.
Later when I get a decent melee artifact weapon the daggers are still
in my quiver, and they get used before creatures get adjacent. The
first weapon type that gets #enhanced (until Expert) is the daggers.
Rogue with multi-shot enchanted daggers is an awesome killer-machine.
With Samurai it's different; in typical games my experience is that
you advance your game better with longswords (or later sabres). The
problem is that you must decide where to spend your skill-slots for.
For me it starts with longswords (for obvious reasons) and at some
time with two-weaponing (or sabres), depending on how a game evolves.
In both cases the games may evolve differently and that may lead to
different decisions concerning bias on melee or ranged, but in most
cases that's how it is most effective - and that is what counts.
Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Jul 23, 2022, 3:06:56 PM7/23/22
to
On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 18:08:59 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> And that's, where we differ (as I wrote). You turn mostly to melee when
>> your character is proficient enough.
>
> (I was speaking of Samurai in this context. And it's still not true
> generally; see below: Rogues.)
>
>> I don't. Therefore, you do not regard
>> enhancing Shuriken worth enhancing late in the game, while I do.
>
> This is true. (I elaborated on the Why and When I do This or That.)
> If there's not enough objects of that type, skill slots are wasted.
> I wonder that you seem to have a different experience here; are you
> really finding so many shurikens in your games? (I certainly don't.)
Samurai is the only role able to get to Expert in shuriken and therefore
>> And that's, where we differ (as I wrote). You turn mostly to melee when
>> your character is proficient enough.
>
> (I was speaking of Samurai in this context. And it's still not true
> generally; see below: Rogues.)
>
>> I don't. Therefore, you do not regard
>> enhancing Shuriken worth enhancing late in the game, while I do.
>
> This is true. (I elaborated on the Why and When I do This or That.)
> If there's not enough objects of that type, skill slots are wasted.
> I wonder that you seem to have a different experience here; are you
> really finding so many shurikens in your games? (I certainly don't.)
the /only/ role I #enhance Shuriken. (As I already wrote.) And I don't
think, I ever encountered a Samurai Quest, that didn't result in a stack
of /at least/ 60 to 80 shuriken. (Usually a lot more than 100. Which is
more than ever needed, when protected against easy breaking by blessing
them and sufficient luck.)
>> Please note: I don't think one approach to be better than the other! They
>> are just different, to a degree.
>
> Oh, I wasn't implying any valuation.
>
> I give you an example; with Rogues I generally start to throw daggers
> immediately. Why? Because I can find abundances of daggers, missiles
> that don't go out of supply, skills (skill-slots) that are not wasted.
> Later when I get a decent melee artifact weapon the daggers are still
> in my quiver, and they get used before creatures get adjacent. The
> first weapon type that gets #enhanced (until Expert) is the daggers.
> Rogue with multi-shot enchanted daggers is an awesome killer-machine.
As I wrote:
| You turn mostly to melee when your character is proficient enough.
Ranger (especially in the beginning) is /no/ proficient melee fighter.
| You turn mostly to melee when your character is proficient enough.
Therefore, your decision to lean more to ranged weapons with this role.
This matches what I think to have been deduced from your game reports
about differences between your playing styles and mine.
One of my favorite roles is one that's the least favorite of many others:
Archeologist. - Probably, because I'm used to being (over-)protective to
my player characters. You, OTOH, seem to be a lot more pragmatic. ;-)
Janis Papanagnou
Jul 24, 2022, 9:58:39 AM7/24/22
to
On 23.07.2022 21:06, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 18:08:59 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>>
>> I give you an example; with Rogues I generally start to throw daggers
>> immediately. Why? Because I can find abundances of daggers, missiles
>> that don't go out of supply, skills (skill-slots) that are not wasted.
>> Later when I get a decent melee artifact weapon the daggers are still
>> in my quiver, and they get used before creatures get adjacent. The
>> first weapon type that gets #enhanced (until Expert) is the daggers.
>> Rogue with multi-shot enchanted daggers is an awesome killer-machine.
>
> As I wrote:
> | You turn mostly to melee when your character is proficient enough.
I think you misread or misinterpreted. Is there any reason you don't
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 18:08:59 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>>
>> I give you an example; with Rogues I generally start to throw daggers
>> immediately. Why? Because I can find abundances of daggers, missiles
>> that don't go out of supply, skills (skill-slots) that are not wasted.
>> Later when I get a decent melee artifact weapon the daggers are still
>> in my quiver, and they get used before creatures get adjacent. The
>> first weapon type that gets #enhanced (until Expert) is the daggers.
>> Rogue with multi-shot enchanted daggers is an awesome killer-machine.
>
> As I wrote:
> | You turn mostly to melee when your character is proficient enough.
wield a melee weapon if you're doing ranged fighting daggers? Do you
consider it melee at the moment you wield a melee weapon, even if you
throw daggers? The point is that at some instant of time your foes are
adjacent; because of the weight (and other necessary loot) you cannot
carry too many daggers, and with multi-shot they are gone at some point.
The funny thing in Nethack is that even an adjacent foe can be fought
with a thrown ranged weapon - IMO that should be made impossible, if
only for balance reasons -, so with a supply of daggers large enough
you can continue that way. But what if you are running out of daggers?
With other missile weapons (with those that break) the situation can
be even more challenging since your supply gets reduced. Nonetheless
I also use darts, for example. In any way, these factors are to be
considered. There are of course more considerations with melee; may
these missiles rust/corrode (and unstack), may [highly enchanted]
missiles be picked up and used by [intelligent] opponents against
you? And hordes and specifically hordes of mixed species may impose
more decisions to make beyond a plain "sword or missile" philosophy.
What I certainly do is to switch to melee when there's no advantage
(damage wise) any more, so that I can spare me the turns to collect
my missiles - while even then still using missiles when appropriate.
>
> Ranger (especially in the beginning) is /no/ proficient melee fighter.
> Therefore, your decision to lean more to ranged weapons with this role.
> This matches what I think to have been deduced from your game reports
> about differences between your playing styles and mine.
OTOH, Rogues are not really different WRT the setup; IMO their melee
weapon is just a red herring to distract the player from their best
weapon choice, the daggers.
>
> One of my favorite roles is one that's the least favorite of many others:
> Archeologist.
seem to support that. I very much like that role, though. Especially
if I can reach the quest with a lot loot and a guaranteed co-aligned
altar. Incidentally that crazy game full of artifacts I posted about
was an Archeologist (Arc Hum Mal Law), my fifth Slashem Arc ascended.
> - Probably, because I'm used to being (over-)protective to
> my player characters. You, OTOH, seem to be a lot more pragmatic. ;-)
And I also don't understand what you mean here by "more pragmatic",
specifically as a supposed difference to the "protective" thing.
For me those two characteristics are not mutually exclusive. Mind
to explain?
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
Jul 24, 2022, 10:21:35 AM7/24/22
to
On 24.07.2022 15:58, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> I think you misread or misinterpreted. Is there any reason you don't
> wield a melee weapon if you're doing ranged fighting daggers? Do you
> consider it melee at the moment you wield a melee weapon, even if you
> throw daggers? The point is that at some instant of time your foes are
> adjacent; because of the weight (and other necessary loot) you cannot
> carry too many daggers, and with multi-shot they are gone at some point.
> The funny thing in Nethack is that even an adjacent foe can be fought
> with a thrown ranged weapon - IMO that should be made impossible, if
> only for balance reasons -, so with a supply of daggers large enough
> you can continue that way. But what if you are running out of daggers?
> With other missile weapons (with those that break) the situation can
> be even more challenging since your supply gets reduced. Nonetheless
> I also use darts, for example. In any way, these factors are to be
> considered. There are of course more considerations with melee; may
> these missiles rust/corrode (and unstack), may [highly enchanted]
> missiles be picked up and used by [intelligent] opponents against
> you? And hordes and specifically hordes of mixed species may impose
> more decisions to make beyond a plain "sword or missile" philosophy.
> What I certainly do is to switch to melee when there's no advantage
> (damage wise) any more, so that I can spare me the turns to collect
> my missiles - while even then still using missiles when appropriate.
I forgot one aspect; I spoke of daggers and darts because they can be
>
> I think you misread or misinterpreted. Is there any reason you don't
> wield a melee weapon if you're doing ranged fighting daggers? Do you
> consider it melee at the moment you wield a melee weapon, even if you
> throw daggers? The point is that at some instant of time your foes are
> adjacent; because of the weight (and other necessary loot) you cannot
> carry too many daggers, and with multi-shot they are gone at some point.
> The funny thing in Nethack is that even an adjacent foe can be fought
> with a thrown ranged weapon - IMO that should be made impossible, if
> only for balance reasons -, so with a supply of daggers large enough
> you can continue that way. But what if you are running out of daggers?
> With other missile weapons (with those that break) the situation can
> be even more challenging since your supply gets reduced. Nonetheless
> I also use darts, for example. In any way, these factors are to be
> considered. There are of course more considerations with melee; may
> these missiles rust/corrode (and unstack), may [highly enchanted]
> missiles be picked up and used by [intelligent] opponents against
> you? And hordes and specifically hordes of mixed species may impose
> more decisions to make beyond a plain "sword or missile" philosophy.
> What I certainly do is to switch to melee when there's no advantage
> (damage wise) any more, so that I can spare me the turns to collect
> my missiles - while even then still using missiles when appropriate.
thrown without further action or turn. While I also use crossbows and
bows in principle (as written) I do that not that often. Even less so
in Slashem where there's additional risks associated with two-handed
missile-launchers (that bows and weapons are in that variant). Often
I prefer even Basic daggers to Skilled bow/arrows because of that.
For specific stages in the game I also want missiles (Medusa's eels),
or fighting a tough quest nemesis from a boulder fort, so I carry them
with me even when I play a melee fighter role.
Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Jul 24, 2022, 1:03:47 PM7/24/22
to
On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 15:58:36 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> As I wrote:
>>| You turn mostly to melee when your character is proficient enough.
>
> I think you misread or misinterpreted.
Likewise. ;-)
>> As I wrote:
>>| You turn mostly to melee when your character is proficient enough.
>
> I think you misread or misinterpreted.
> Is there any reason you don't wield a melee weapon if you're doing ranged
> fighting daggers?
one melee weapon.
The difference I tried to point out is, that I think I'm taking more
precautions with melee-proficient, well-protected characters to not
get hostile monsters into melee distance in the first place. This
includes #enhancing at least one ranged weapon to the role-specific
maximum. With most classes dagger. With Samurai quite often dagger
/and/ shuriken.
You said, you wouldn't bother with the latter, because your Samurai
(+/- the sole relevant role) is melee-proficient enough to fight his
way through, when he is ready for (or even finished with) the Quest.
(And for tough opponents, there are always wands and the like, to kill
them from a distance.)
> because of the weight (and other necessary loot) you cannot carry too many
> daggers, and with multi-shot they are gone at some point.
the dungeons. Although I usually only start stashing away my main throwing
weapons, after a sufficiently large stack (several dozen) has been enchanted
to a reasonable maximum (+6 or +7).
Multi-shot or not: The throwing weapons are recollected. If the number
from main inventory and BoH (combined with wand usage, maybe spells and
of course some melee) is exhausted while the way to recollect the throwing
weapons is blocked, than orderly retreat to the stashes is called for.
More of a problem with my kind of playing is, that monsters acquire my
well-enchanted throwing weapons. Getting them thrown back has to be
accounted for. (You also pointed that out.)
> The funny thing in Nethack is that even an adjacent foe can be fought
> with a thrown ranged weapon - IMO that should be made impossible, if
> only for balance reasons
achieve. Apart from that: Why do you consider this "unbalanced"? Most
ranged weapons do less damage when thrown than melee with a decent
weapon, let alone an enchanted artifact weapon. There isn't even a
real-life problem here. At sword-fighting distance it is well possible
to throw a couple of daggers or shuriken in one swing.
> But what if you are running out of daggers?
the quiver. I do not abstain melee, as you seem to be reading from my
texts. The (IMO existing) difference between our fighting styles is not
a severe one, but one of a modest layer of prioritization.
I guess, my playing style is still influenced from around 1992, when I
started playing Nethack (v1.4f). I used to play Ninja (a lot!) more
often than any other role, because it was the only one I managed to
survive at least a few levels. It was a very weak fighter class, but
was equipped with a solid stack of shuriken for fighting from afar.
>> One of my favorite roles is one that's the least favorite of many others:
>> Archeologist.
>
> I consider Archeologist to be a very difficult class, and statistics
> seem to support that. I very much like that role, though. Especially
> if I can reach the quest with a lot loot and a guaranteed co-aligned
> altar. Incidentally that crazy game full of artifacts I posted about
> was an Archeologist (Arc Hum Mal Law), my fifth Slashem Arc ascended.
suitable shops can be found. Archeologist sometimes equip really fast.
>> - Probably, because I'm used to being (over-)protective to
>> my player characters. You, OTOH, seem to be a lot more pragmatic. ;-)
>
> I don't understand what exactly you mean here by "(over-)protective".
> And I also don't understand what you mean here by "more pragmatic",
> specifically as a supposed difference to the "protective" thing.
> For me those two characteristics are not mutually exclusive. Mind
> to explain?
Samurai being approached by a wumpus about 4 fields away. You probably
go 2 fields in its direction, but wait for the wumpus coming to the
adjacent field, to get the first blow. I, OTOH, would use my throwing
weapons, although the wumpus doesn't really pose any melee-danger for
a character as described. (= Over-protective vs. pragmatic.)
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Jul 24, 2022, 1:12:48 PM7/24/22
to
On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 16:21:32 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> I forgot one aspect; I spoke of daggers and darts because they can be
> thrown without further action or turn. While I also use crossbows and
> bows in principle (as written) I do that not that often. Even less so
> in Slashem where there's additional risks associated with two-handed
> missile-launchers (that bows and weapons are in that variant). Often
> I prefer even Basic daggers to Skilled bow/arrows because of that.
For me, this depends on the killing efficiency. I don't like switching
> I forgot one aspect; I spoke of daggers and darts because they can be
> thrown without further action or turn. While I also use crossbows and
> bows in principle (as written) I do that not that often. Even less so
> in Slashem where there's additional risks associated with two-handed
> missile-launchers (that bows and weapons are in that variant). Often
> I prefer even Basic daggers to Skilled bow/arrows because of that.
from melee weapon to bow, especially with a two-weaponing character.
Therefore, with two-weaponing I usually combine daggers and the like.
For all other cases, the x-command works well enough.
> For specific stages in the game I also want missiles (Medusa's eels),
> or fighting a tough quest nemesis from a boulder fort, so I carry them
> with me even when I play a melee fighter role.
I often throw just stones on any water monster (from safe distance). I
certainly do not use my high-end projectiles, when they may land in some
pool of water. (Re-acquiring them is just too messy, even when erodeproof.)
Exception are the Elemental Planes, of course. Certain loss is discounted
for, in this case.
0 new messages