Origin advertises r programmers
Donn R Schaefer
Has anybody else seen the full page ad from Origin in CGW?
After all the talk on this base about "how do i get a job. . ." it is
interesting to see this big recruiting ad in a prominent game mag.
The title reads "Can you create worlds?", and the tone of the ad suggests
that they are serious about finding new talent.
DOS,PC, C/C++, Intel ASM are the main prerequisites they are seeking, but
they mention other skills such as graphics, audio, etc.
In case you are interested, I could post a more detailed description of
the ad. (If you're serious, I'm guessing that you will pick up a copy of
CGW)
Donn Schaefer
Jason Walton
1) Which issue of CGW?
2) Could you post the ad?
--
Jason Walton (aj...@freenet.carleton.ca)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O/
Call Binaric Dreams - (819) 595-4595 - SysOp: DiGiTAL QUARTz (JW) -|
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stephen mark wilson
>Has anybody else seen the full page ad from Origin in CGW?
>After all the talk on this base about "how do i get a job. . ." it is
>interesting to see this big recruiting ad in a prominent game mag.
>The title reads "Can you create worlds?", and the tone of the ad suggests
>that they are serious about finding new talent.
Last semester in our Games Engineering class at UNT we were visited by
one of Origin's programmers (don't want to name names... :) )
He was very friendly and spoke for about 2 hours. One of the things
he said that stuck with me was that Origin payed less money than most
other companies to entry-level programmers... Good programmers usually
leave the company for more pay after they prove themselves. He did mention
stock options, though... He mentioned that a great demo of your work
was very important -- his demo was a vga lib. He also told us to
expect to earn about $25,000 a year to start if we did come to work for
Origin. Geez, I'll hold out for a little more cash -- or maybe take
up accordion repair... :)
>Donn Schaefer
Greets from Texas...
Steve Wilson
--
| Steve Wilson aka. Mad Max, UNT CSCI LARC Dept. Delta |
| Lead Hacker on the infamous "Space Truckin" 3-D Flight Sim... |
Donn R Schaefer
Computer Gaming World. Issue 122, September 1994, p. 159. Reader
Service #220.
*****************************
CAN YOU CREATE WORLDS?
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
You may already know us from titles such as: Ultima, Wincg Commander,
Strike Commander, and Privateer. However, you may not know that we are
currently building hard-core flight sims, interactve movies, and
programming tools too. We are always seeking skilled and creative
individuals to help build our software worlds. Our demands are simple -
you must demonstrate that you are uniquely qualified to build cool games!
PROGRAMMING
We build primarily MS-DOS games. We seek especially PC C/C++ and Intel
assembly programmers. However, we also need people with general skill in
areas such as: graphics, audio, CD-ROM, and Windows. Experience with
3DO, Sega, or other specialized game systems is also useful. We look
primarily for enthusiastic individuals who share our spirit of innovative
hacking! Sen resumes including past experience. Demos are especially
welcome.
ARTISTS
We need individuals who are excellent crative artists first, and computer
users second. Especially valuable is experience with human and
architectural forms, conceptual design, animation, and fantasy or sci-fi
artwork. Previous experience with a 3D modeler such as 3DStudio or Alias
is a plus, but not required. Please send resumes including a portfolio
of past work, traditional and computer.
DESIGNERS
We seek creative writers and game designers who have a diversity of
experience. Avid game playing is a must. Knowledge of our existing
product lines, particularly the Ultima and Commander series, is
advantageous. Creative writing, artistic experience, and a knack for
technology, especially programming, are the ideal skills. Send a resume
with past experience. We would also like to see other useful information
such as an analysis of your favorite or least favorite games and how you
might have designed them differently.
Send resumes to:
ORIGIN
We Create Worlds
An Electronic Arts Company
12940 Research Blvd. Austin, TX 78750
No e-mail resumes please
*****************
Hope somebody finds this interesting
Christopher Wetzel
work there. They hire writers, programmers and artists (internships
for art majors also). They were bought out by EOA recently (and everyone
got a sega:) ) so I don't know how much things have changed.
They used to not hire many people. They are not picky about
their programmers - the writers need to be published. And for this they
get $18k+. The programmers seemed to come in at around $30 (an excellent
wage for entry level austin).
The opening interview was pretty simple. Say hello. Show how
you like to sleep at work (they used to have a sleeping area, now it
is just a couch next to the fake donughts) and play laser tag and how
friendly and energetic. Explain how much you liked the subtle plot
twist of ultima 4 (for writers at least). Interviewer asks you if you
like games and can you write one. You say no, he explains how games are
written, how they have graphics libraries so you don't have to know
much, and how the idea and the concept are the important thing. Then
he shows you how games are made and gives you an assignment.
One friend was told to write a flight simulator and come
back next week. The sim could be text mode for all anyone cares (if
key = "r" printf("scrolling right") would have counted). When you come
back he shows you basic circle and line drawing, you go home and come
back a week later and show him how you've improved from a cheesy
text simulator to a cheesy graphic(sorta) simulator. If it shows
you know the concepts they can teach you the assembler and graphics.
Another friend was given a program to write like Lander in windows.
Again, the concept is important, not the graphics. Another friend
(a writer) was to be taught assembler/C to help write games. He's
an english major with no CS or programming background (smart people
can be taught).
These are entry level positions - I imagine the higher ups
really have to know double buffering ray tracing scrolling and thw
whole 9 yards. And their people are bright motivated people (who
all work 60 hours and leave work at 7 am during crunch time). They're
a tight knit group for the most part.
I have no idea how other companies hire, but I hope this
little bit amuses or helps someone.
- baylor
Chris Norden
>From: us32...@mmm.com (Christopher Wetzel)
>Subject: Re: Origin advertises r programmers
>Date: 29 Aug 1994 19:19:20 -0500
> I've got experience with Origin and have several friends who
>work there. They hire writers, programmers and artists (internships
> (stuff deleted)
> One friend was told to write a flight simulator and come
>back next week. The sim could be text mode for all anyone cares (if
> (stuff deleted)
Text mode didn't matter?!?! Ultima IV?!?! Windows?!?!?! (Agh...not the 'W'
word!!!)
Jeez...how long ago was this interview?? A _lot_ has changed since
then...this is not how people are hired now. You actually need to know quite
a bit. The one thing that helps considerably (as people have said many times
before) is a DEMO! A degree or experience can't hurt, but what really counts
is your personal programming skills; not a piece of paper saying that you paid
someone to try to teach you something. I have personally used a helluva
lot more stuff that I taught myself than what I learned in college. You also
have to actually _love_ games, or you'll probably go nuts after a few months.
BTW, this is not a flame or anything, just some (hopefully) updated info. :)
-cnn
//
// Chris Norden
// Programmer, Origin Systems
//
// E-mail: cno...@origin.ea.com
//
// Any opinions expressed here are mine and not necessarily of my employer!
//
Bob Pendleton
: In article <33ttu8$9...@dawn.mmm.com> us32...@mmm.com (Christopher Wetzel) writes:
:The one thing that helps considerably (as people have said many times
:before) is a DEMO!
I spent all day today going through resumes for a game programmer job
we have open right now. Eight of the applicants included demos. (I
only made it through the top half of the stack today :-) Five didn't
run. Two demos made negative impressions. One was a video tape. The
one with the tape was the only one that made it into the second look
stack. He would have made it based on his resume alone. A couple that
sent demos that didn't work would have made it into the second look
stack except, of course, their demo didn't work.
So, based on this one experience I'd say that sending a demo is very
good for the people doing the hiring. Demos saved me from making a
couple of phone calls :-)
May I make a few suggestions to people sending demos? Don't send
anything that requires me to modify my autoexec.bat, config.sys, or
win.ini files. Don't send anything that requires special hardware. I
don't have your brand of SVGA card, or your brand of sound card, my
mouse only has two buttons, and I will not buy a copy of OS/2 or load
linux just to run your demo. Don't send anything that you want back.
Do not ask me to sign a nondisclosure agreement to see your demo.
Do send user documentation and source code.
:A degree or experience can't hurt, but what really counts
:is your personal programming skills; not a piece of paper saying that you paid
:someone to try to teach you something. I have personally used a helluva
:lot more stuff that I taught myself than what I learned in college. You also
:have to actually _love_ games, or you'll probably go nuts after a few months.
Me too, but I learned what I needed to know to be able to teach myself
all that stuff in college. Any way, it's a moot question. There are
many people out there with 1 or 2 (or more) degrees in applicable
fields who also have 5+ years experience, including shipping real
products, who want very badly to work in the entertainment software
business. With people like that available why would you hire someone
with no education and no commercial software experience?
(The answer is that once in a while you see a resume from a kid who is
obviously going to be very good so you hire them part time while they
finish college and hope they stick around afterward. But that's rare.)
What I really like to see are people who worked their way through a CS
degree by programming. :-) Programming in a real development environment
while taking classes helps you learn a lot very fast.
:BTW, this is not a flame or anything, just some (hopefully) updated info. :)
Yeah, me to.
In the last little while I've talked to several people who do hiring
for games companies. They have all told me that they no longer look at
people without degrees. No matter what you want to say about having a
degree the degree tells me that I'm talking to someone who has the
determination to get through a long long tough process filled with
arbitray rules, unending frustration and hard work. (If this doesn't
describe your college find a real school somewhere.) And that is
important when deciding to hire or not to hire.
Bob P.
Christopher Wetzel
> Jeez...how long ago was this interview?? A _lot_ has changed since
You work at Origin, right? Well, this was back when Rob got hired
onto that Flight Sim thing that was a million years behind (That's
right, strike commander), so what was that, 2 years ago maybe? I left
Austin 9 months ago, so it was before that. It was also while Serpent's
Isle was in development. Back before HQ moved off of 360 to north
somewhere or another.
Rob was an English major hired as designer (he got hired, I
hear, because of the novel him and Scott Whitney wrote that was at
the time being considered). And he talked about Ultima 4 among other
games. They told him after Strike they'd just teach him some
programming and see how he did. He then recommened me and another lady
to work there. I forget her name, but she was hired maybe a year ago,
and she was to write a Lunar Lander type game/demo. Nothing fancy -
they informed her that Origin had briliant graphics programmers that
had written the graphics library (and did nothing but write graphics
libraries it sounded like). Actually, come to think of it, that happened
at the time EOA bought out Origin. Damn, my memories just awful - Wendy,
I think. Sorry, I haven't seen them since I left school.
They didn't hire her because she had just finished her CS degree -
they hired her because people vouched for her and she was bright and
caught on quick. But she was no games programmer or graphics wizard.
Anyway, does that help any?
- baylor
Jouni Miettunen
bo...@bga.com (Bob Pendleton) said:
> I spent all day today going through resumes for a game programmer job
...
> Do not ask me to sign a nondisclosure agreement to see your demo.
> Do send user documentation and source code.
So you want the program, manual and source from all the applicants and
will not sign a nondisclosure agreement. Interesting.. Too bad I'm not
looking for a job.
> Bob P.
--jouni
--
* Jouni Miettunen j...@stekt.oulu.fi * Oulu * Finland * Europe *
*** Good fortune will find you, providing you gave directions ***
** x2ftp.oulu.fi * THE pc game/graphics/sound PROGRAMMING site **
Bob Pendleton
: On 8 Sep 1994 04:11:22 GMT,
: bo...@bga.com (Bob Pendleton) said:
: > I spent all day today going through resumes for a game programmer job
: ...
: > Do not ask me to sign a nondisclosure agreement to see your demo.
: > Do send user documentation and source code.
: So you want the program, manual and source from all the applicants and
: will not sign a nondisclosure agreement. Interesting.. Too bad I'm not
: looking for a job.
Yeah, I figured that would trigger someone's paranoia level... It's
like this, I'm not going to hire you without looking at samples of
your code anyway, why not send it with the demo? The demo is supposed
to be an advertisement for your skills and believe me,
maintainability, readability, and portability of code you write are as
important as performance. Anyway, I can't sign an NDA without putting
myself in a position to be sued if I ever produce a product that does
anything like what your demo does. This means that I'd be nuts to sign
an NDA to see your demo. I want the "manual" so I can figure out what
the demo is supposed to do. Usually demos are accompanied by a read.me
that says the equivalent of "Run me and be prepared to be astounded."
I've yet to see a demo that needed more than 1 page of text to explain
it.
Oh, yeah, from a couple of bad experiences I've learned to run demos
on a machine that is isolated from the network and that doesn't have
anything critical on it. People aren't always very careful about
checking for viruses. Every virus I've every seen came in on a demo.
I my original posting I mentioned that the one demo that I liked
was on a video tape. It came with no programs and no source code,
but it had a very nice description of what I was going to see. It was
also of a system of sufficient complexity that I know I'm not going
to get source code. I understand the difference between a major
piece of software developement work and a quick hack intended to
wow a potential employer. I'm not sure that most people out there
do.
Bob P.
Tim Triemstra
Q>your code anyway, why not send it with the demo?
Quick point: if I were the one sending the demo there's no way in hell
you'd get my source code. Of course, in my mind a demo is a lot more
than "hey, look! I can scroll in mode-x" - I would expect that a demo
represents a significant amount of coding and may well involve something
that shouldn't become common-knowlege.
I can understand your point of needing to see source code but I would
expect that code from another piece of software written by the applicant
would suffice rather than the code from the actual demo. When I start
sending out my demo it will be of a nearly complete product, and I will
most likely include the browser information of the classes or something
and maybe a header file or two to get an ida of my organizational
abilities but this demo is going to a few different people and if you
would expect me to send source code that can be recompiled, well, you can
expect to see it on a few BBS systems before it is even in the hands of
all the potential emplyers (most likely will have a new credits page by
then too.)
Try to understand the point of the developer, also. We have ALOT more to
lose. If you're screwed you simply fire the person. If we get screwed
we watch some company rake in the money while we flip burger another
semester.
--
Tim.
= Tim Triemstra = emp...@umcc.umich.edu =
== ==
= Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too? =
Mickwest
(Tim Triemstra) writes:
> Try to understand the point of the developer, also. We have ALOT more
to
> lose. If you're screwed you simply fire the person. If we get screwed
> we watch some company rake in the money while we flip burger another
> semester.
Has anyone ever been screwed in this way? Anyone know of anyone who has?
Can anyone point a finger at a commercial product and say "that was ripped
off from a demo I wrote"?
Most programmers out there are crap, really really crap. And if you get a
good one once in a while you need to make sure they can work within your
team, hence you will need to look at their source code at some stage.
Any good programmer knows that nearly all new tricks are bloody obvious
once you see the program running. Without looking at the source code you
can usually figure out how they achieved whatever effect in a few minutes.
Source code is usually worthless in itself.
If someone is good enough to have their source code ripped off then they
will be good enough to get a job just about anywhere. If a company sees
you have written something truely amazing and new, then they will hire
you.
Mick (Mick...@aol.com)
Tim Triemstra
| If someone is good enough to have their source code ripped off then
| they will be good enough to get a job just about anywhere. If a
| company sees you have written something truely amazing and new, then
| they will hire you.
|
| Mick (Mick...@aol.com)
Actually, my original comment which you responded to was refering to
demos that were _games_ not the stupid "Hey, look! I can do shade-bobs"
crap. True, if you expect to get a job because you can do some new
"effect" then source code inclusion may be a good idea, there isn't much
to lose. However, if you have written a game that you would like to get
published eventually or you see it as a demo of what you can do (making a
small game shows organizational ability and creativity that a shade-bob
demo simply can't convey) then source code should not be included, at
least not _all_ of it.
Also, we all know that algorithms can be duplicated (hell, any good group
of programmers could put together a DOOM engine) but we also know that
big companies aren't going to say "Wow, what that kid was cool, let's put
our team on developing that technique" when they have the source code
right there. And, true, this individual may be able to get a job
"anywhere" but he just lost a big chunk of his marketability if other
companies are coming out with his new idea as he's interviewing.
Oh, btw: if you don't think people have been screwed by companies, make
a post with that header - I have heard a number of stories about it while
following this group. It does happen in gaming just like anywhere else.
Mr. Smith
: In article <351rnj$i...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>, emp...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu
: (Tim Triemstra) writes:
: > Try to understand the point of the developer, also. We have ALOT more
: to
: > lose. If you're screwed you simply fire the person. If we get screwed
: > we watch some company rake in the money while we flip burger another
: > semester.
: Has anyone ever been screwed in this way? Anyone know of anyone who has?
: Can anyone point a finger at a commercial product and say "that was ripped
: off from a demo I wrote"?
Hi. I work for a fairly high-profile developer. I'm posting anonymously
for what are hopefully obvious reasons.
We know of two instances in the recent past where publishers who *had
seen* our design materials and/or running prototypes subsequently
released products that bore far more than a passing resemblance to those
we'd pitched to them. In one case it was an approach to a tile-based
engine, which wasn't that big a deal. In the other (and this
latter publisher is *very* big -- you almost certainly have one or more
of their games in your collection) they stole our design, lock stock and
barrel.
So, it happens. And if the war stories are to be believed, shit like
this has been going on since the earliest days of computer games.
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Rich Gortatowsky
: In article <355cal$1...@search01.news.aol.com> you wrote:
: : In article <351rnj$i...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>, emp...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu
: : (Tim Triemstra) writes:
: : > Try to understand the point of the developer, also. We have ALOT more
: : to
: : > lose. If you're screwed you simply fire the person. If we get screwed
: : > we watch some company rake in the money while we flip burger another
: : > semester.
: : Has anyone ever been screwed in this way? Anyone know of anyone who has?
: : Can anyone point a finger at a commercial product and say "that was ripped
: : off from a demo I wrote"?
: Hi. I work for a fairly high-profile developer. I'm posting anonymously
: for what are hopefully obvious reasons.
: We know of two instances in the recent past where publishers who *had
: seen* our design materials and/or running prototypes subsequently
: released products that bore far more than a passing resemblance to those
: we'd pitched to them. In one case it was an approach to a tile-based
: engine, which wasn't that big a deal. In the other (and this
: latter publisher is *very* big -- you almost certainly have one or more
: of their games in your collection) they stole our design, lock stock and
: barrel.
: So, it happens. And if the war stories are to be believed, shit like
: this has been going on since the earliest days of computer games.
Viola... There ya go... It happens... Happened to me, happened to them
and will continue to happen... Be smart and DONT get sniped. Send demos
not ideas... not games... simple graphics demos. AS special effect? If you
care dont put it in, other wise...
--
Rich Gortatowsky j...@raster.Kodak.COM
Eastman Kodak Company
These comments are mine alone and not Eastman Kodak's. How's that for a
simple and complete disclaimer?
Rich Gortatowsky
: On 8 Sep 1994 04:11:22 GMT,
: bo...@bga.com (Bob Pendleton) said:
: > I spent all day today going through resumes for a game programmer job
: ...
: > Do not ask me to sign a nondisclosure agreement to see your demo.
: > Do send user documentation and source code.
: So you want the program, manual and source from all the applicants and
: will not sign a nondisclosure agreement. Interesting.. Too bad I'm not
: looking for a job.
Not that I'm interested in working at Origin but why would one nOT sign
a ND agreement? They have been pretty standard... CERTAINLY anyone who'd
send a near complete work or even COMPLETE model of the given Game I assu,me
demo would be well advised against such practices. Just go onto the usenet
comp.legal zones and you will find you can get BURNED bad like.
There is recourse in that a WISE individual should copyright their items
PLAIN & CLEAR (many (all?) states have implied copyright meaning you
assigning you name to it implies copyright) mail the SOURCE to yourself
and DO NOT open the envelope just keep it tuckes away safe-like.
This allows certain legal recourse but the fee's are vicious.
I would say the prudent thing to do is write a DEMO (not a game) and thats it.
If your extremly gifted donr show it.
I could probably find out how at least 3-4 other publishers do business
if need be. I however HAVE NEVER EVER had anyone give me problems w/
non-disclosure it has been round a LONG LONG Time .
We BUY products by what we see, not how it is done or got there...
What is the big-deal about ND anyway? the claim was like 10 entry's?
There need be no exchanging of notes... When the applicants demo is
sent it is sent w/ a SASE to return the items to him w/ a signed ND
agreement.
: * Jouni Miettunen j...@stekt.oulu.fi * Oulu * Finland * Europe *
: *** Good fortune will find you, providing you gave directions ***
: ** x2ftp.oulu.fi * THE pc game/graphics/sound PROGRAMMING site **
--
Rich Gortatowsky
: In article <351rnj$i...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>, emp...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu
: (Tim Triemstra) writes:
: > Try to understand the point of the developer, also. We have ALOT more
: to
: > lose. If you're screwed you simply fire the person. If we get screwed
: > we watch some company rake in the money while we flip burger another
: > semester.
: Has anyone ever been screwed in this way? Anyone know of anyone who has?
: Can anyone point a finger at a commercial product and say "that was ripped
: off from a demo I wrote"?
Yes... Heck, I got it twice basically, make that 3 times though the third
was another deal. When I was young dumb and full of ... I wrote this Zippy
parser for CP/M 80 Z80 based box. It was to port a popular lingo on an atari
800 called ACTION. The author was a pal and allowed me to port the lingo.
One day I was chattin' w/ this dude on CIS from JPL (yes JPL) he set me
up w/ this guy we phone comm'd a coupla times I sent him the source and
lo & behold nothin', calls not returned, no ND came back just blew me off
bascically. Second time, I had a finished product that linked itself into
the third product called DESKCART. It was a hardware accessory package for
the ST machines. PRINT-IT! was a utility that linked into DESKCART and
did all this nifty spooling/resizing etc etc etc all fluff today). When this
was sent for Final Beta it suddenly sprung up broke on BBS's all over the
place... Never went to market never made a cent. I still have the ND agreement
somwhere;s. DESKCART on the other hand did go to market. Was reviewed as the
cats meow... Literally "THe best add on product for the machine"... I made
like $18 thousand dollars on it. NOt bad for 6 mo. code but NOT ANYWHERE near
what the masters figures spoke of. The Master had a cheap mold made in
mexico and it cracked after the 70nn case.
He filed bankruptcy and we filed our nails...
: Most programmers out there are crap, really really crap. And if you get a
: good one once in a while you need to make sure they can work within your
: team, hence you will need to look at their source code at some stage.
I cannot agree. There are those that have no clue of what it takes to
make a salable product howevere . The gruling hours on hours the stiffling
of creativity and the damned timelines. The bug that must be fixed but is
so damned elusive you sit hours on end going absolutely mad.
: Any good programmer knows that nearly all new tricks are bloody obvious
: once you see the program running. Without looking at the source code you
: can usually figure out how they achieved whatever effect in a few minutes.
: Source code is usually worthless in itself.
Interesting concept.
: If someone is good enough to have their source code ripped off then they
: will be good enough to get a job just about anywhere. If a company sees
: you have written something truely amazing and new, then they will hire
: you.
: Mick (Mick...@aol.com)
They will?
Rich Gortatowsky
: Q>I'm not going to hire you without looking at samples of
: Q>your code anyway, why not send it with the demo?
: Quick point: if I were the one sending the demo there's no way in hell
: you'd get my source code. Of course, in my mind a demo is a lot more
: than "hey, look! I can scroll in mode-x" - I would expect that a demo
: represents a significant amount of coding and may well involve something
: that shouldn't become common-knowlege.
Sending source is not un-reasonable. Program portability (although in
origins case there are no other platforms? ah 3Do) and how good the
perspective individua;l is shows in the sources. Heck I remember many
yeasr ago being grilled as they thought the code came from elsewhere.
Retardless, if one's that good at programming one can do better on one's
(or 2's and three's) own. ID proved it and everybody else is scratching
their heads and coming out w/ doom clones to leech the few bucks left
in ID's wake, I congrat them BIGTIME! Bout time this happened. Now if
I were ID I'd start lowering prices and going after those home built
babies and build a network of the home programmers. It's cheaper to
operate, allows MUCH MUCH more flexibility and input...
Remember, Origin or whomever tells you WRITE THIS GIZMO. Your creative
insights ONLY matter if it makes money. W/ a home network deal while it
may take a while before you quit the day job the rewards are much nicer.
: Try to understand the point of the developer, also. We have ALOT more to
: lose. If you're screwed you simply fire the person. If we get screwed
: we watch some company rake in the money while we flip burger another
: semester.
Agreed.
Rich Gortatowsky
: Jouni Miettunen (j...@stekt.oulu.fi) wrote:
: : On 8 Sep 1994 04:11:22 GMT,
: : bo...@bga.com (Bob Pendleton) said:
: : > I spent all day today going through resumes for a game programmer job
: : ...
: : > Do not ask me to sign a nondisclosure agreement to see your demo.
: : > Do send user documentation and source code.
: : So you want the program, manual and source from all the applicants and
: : will not sign a nondisclosure agreement. Interesting.. Too bad I'm not
: : looking for a job.
: Yeah, I figured that would trigger someone's paranoia level... It's
: like this, I'm not going to hire you without looking at samples of
: your code anyway, why not send it with the demo? The demo is supposed
: to be an advertisement for your skills and believe me,
: maintainability, readability, and portability of code you write are as
: important as performance. Anyway, I can't sign an NDA without putting
: myself in a position to be sued if I ever produce a product that does
: anything like what your demo does. This means that I'd be nuts to sign
: an NDA to see your demo. I want the "manual" so I can figure out what
: the demo is supposed to do. Usually demos are accompanied by a read.me
: that says the equivalent of "Run me and be prepared to be astounded."
: I've yet to see a demo that needed more than 1 page of text to explain
: it.
Double-edged sword ala paradox.
A ND agreement is NOT that fatal. Otherwise, Origin would be suing MPS
who would be suing EA who... To something that's not unique like who cares
but a nice game work should be handled in such a fasion w/ say a passage
stating that for 6 months or what-all we wont do nuttin'
I certainly would not send a major piece of work anyway. A major work may
be publishable in it's own right in which case alot of other options and
questions come to bare. For example I am hired at say Origin and I have this
super colossal game almost done... Of course Origin might want first shot
at it or? Is it ONLY through us or you a notta gonna work here bukaroo.
A talented game coder ought be able to make an impresive enough dempo
w/o trowin' his total ability out to begin with.
I would really be interested in hearing a response about current works?
Also guys~! consider ID or APogee they have an extremely wide and NOTICED
name. If you have a great item, and you KNOW it. I'd really go ID.
: I my original posting I mentioned that the one demo that I liked
: was on a video tape. It came with no programs and no source code,
: but it had a very nice description of what I was going to see. It was
: also of a system of sufficient complexity that I know I'm not going
: to get source code. I understand the difference between a major
: piece of software developement work and a quick hack intended to
: wow a potential employer. I'm not sure that most people out there
: do.
A natural concept. It does not protect one's ideas however. Not that america
has ever practiced what has been preached :)
AH well... Enjoy... I would as I said be interested in hearing about HIRED
dudes and their current works could I say work at Origin yet games made
on my personal time are my items? I realize that sending Nuke Wing off to EA
might get one drowned in the water cooler but is there any guidlines pertaining
to this arena. Or what if it's say "Talk-perfect" the Nifty new bi-lingual
speech recognition word processor?
Joel Finch
> bloody obvious once you see the program running. Without
> looking at the source code you can usually figure out how
> they achieved whatever effect in a few minutes. Source code
> is usually worthless in itself.
I couldn't disagree more, and believe me, I'm trying.
With some "new tricks" details is about all there is;
just looking at the screen doesn't tell you nuthin'.
Maybe looking at a screen will give some clues how it might
be done, but hey, if you've got the source, why lose any
sleep trying to work out the details yourself?
Source makes the difference between several months of
painstaking effort working it out the first time, and
several minutes of painless non-exertion copying someone
else's work.
Source is, therefore, nowhere near "worthless".
Seeya, Joel :)
(jfi...@ozemail.com.au)
Mickwest
<jfi...@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> Maybe looking at a screen will give some clues how it might
> be done, but hey, if you've got the source, why lose any
> sleep trying to work out the details yourself?
Hmm, could you give me an example? I mean, just briefly describe how
somethng looks like, that is not almost immediatly obvious how it is
programmed.
Now, there are a very few techniques out there, like DOOM, that are
genuinely new and do require a little more though. But even with DOOM,
nobody has seen the source code and yet there are tens of programmer out
there all churning out their own version of Doom, just from having seen it
on the screen.
Doom is a bit of an exception, anything that is the result of three of
four years of hard programming by a bunch of guys is bound to take a wee
bit of time to figure out, but even so:
Four years research = Four Months Re-engineering.
Now source code would be useful, for such an extreme example, but for 99%
of the code send to software house for review, there is NOTHING new in
there, just a bunch of re-invented wheels.
But as most software development is re-inventing slightly different
wheels, it's very useful to see how a prospective programmer goes about
it.
Innovation is very important, and if someone has done something truely
innovative, like DOOM, they are not just going to apply for a job, they
should produce a polished product and sell that, either to the public
direct, or to a publisher.
Mick.
Wendy White
wrote:
> Chris Norden (cno...@origin.ea.com) wrote:
> > Jeez...how long ago was this interview?? A _lot_ has changed since
>
> He then recommened me and another lady
> to work there. I forget her name, but she was hired maybe a year ago,
> and she was to write a Lunar Lander type game/demo. Nothing fancy -
> they informed her that Origin had briliant graphics programmers that
> had written the graphics library (and did nothing but write graphics
> libraries it sounded like). Actually, come to think of it, that happened
> at the time EOA bought out Origin. Damn, my memories just awful - Wendy,
> I think. Sorry, I haven't seen them since I left school.
> They didn't hire her because she had just finished her CS degree -
> they hired her because people vouched for her and she was bright and
> caught on quick. But she was no games programmer or graphics wizard.
> Anyway, does that help any?
>
> - baylor
Most of what you said in this post and the last post on this subject was
very misleading about Origin's hiring policies. Chris Norden's post
however straightened much of this out. The only thing he left out was that
the policies Origin has now are the same as when I was hired. Origin
really likes demos. It shows exactly what a programmer's skill set is. It
also shows that they enjoy and spend much free time on programming.
Recommendations help get you in the door but if you don't have any skills
to back up a resume, your not going to have much luck. Occasionally,
mistakes are made and the wrong people are hired, but they aren't here very
long. In this environment it becomes apparent quickly if you don't have
the skills or can't catch on very fast. You don't just need skills, but
you need to have alot of free time to spend on work, you need to be fast,
and you need to understand how to code very large projects within a team
environment.j
Just to set the facts straight. The recommendations I had from people who
already worked here didn't mean that much since they weren't programmers.
That holds true for anyone else, also. I was asked to write a demo only
because I did not know C++ at the time and it was necessary for the project
that was hiring. They wanted to know how much graphics I knew and how
easily I could learn C++. I was never told what the demo needed to be. It
did not have to be a game just a program that demonstrated my abilities. I
had received my degree about 2 years earlier and was working on a very
large physics simulation on the Connection Machine. Origin hires people
for their programming abilities. Yes, they have extensive libraries, but
every game usually requires specialized low-level code which needs to be
rewritten anyhow. So the libraries aren't as relied upon as you imply.
You must be able to reproduce any of the functionality in the libraries or
be able to learn very quickly how to do this.
--
Wendy White
Origin Systems
Austin, Texas
Andrew Southwick
>Jouni Miettunen (j...@stekt.oulu.fi) wrote:
>: On 8 Sep 1994 04:11:22 GMT,
>: bo...@bga.com (Bob Pendleton) said:
>
>: > I spent all day today going through resumes for a game programmer job
>: ...
>: > Do not ask me to sign a nondisclosure agreement to see your demo.
>: > Do send user documentation and source code.
>
>: So you want the program, manual and source from all the applicants and
>: will not sign a nondisclosure agreement. Interesting.. Too bad I'm not
>: looking for a job.
>
>Not that I'm interested in working at Origin but why would one nOT sign
>a ND agreement? They have been pretty standard... CERTAINLY anyone who'd
>send a near complete work or even COMPLETE model of the given Game I assu,me
>demo would be well advised against such practices.
We were talking about getting a job at Origin here, not selling a product
idea to them. Applying programmers should have a demo product - not a
demo-version of a full game that they have written. A demo. A small
hack, with nifty graphics, or fancy algorithms, or what have you. Something
to show off your algorithm, graphics, and sound programming skills. The
source code would accompany it to demonstrate your clean coding style, the
bountiful comments you always include, and the various things you do to
insure maintainability of the code.
Plus, point them to several of your recent Usenet posts - let them find out
how well you communicate via the written word; if you can express yourself
clearly and succinctly. Hint, hint. And they'll also find out if you can
read the language - which is often a very useful skill. Hint, hint.
>Rich Gortatowsky j...@raster.Kodak.COM
#include "standard disclaimer.h"
Best Premises, and...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu
Andrew R. Southwick asout...@vnet.ibm.com